Latest / Partnerships Unraveled / Luxy Thuraisingam - Marketing to the SMB Buyer: Storytelling, Simplicity and Speed

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Luxy Thuraisingam - Marketing to the SMB Buyer: Storytelling, Simplicity and Speed · Partnerships Unraveled

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Partnerships Unraveled, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries about partnerships, and channel on a weekly basis.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: My name is Alex Whitford, I'm the VP of Revenue here at Channext and this week I'm very excited to welcome our special guest Luxie.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: How are you doing?
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: I am doing really great, alex, and let me start by saying thank you.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: I am so excited by this conversation.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited to get into it.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: We spend a lot of time on this podcast talking about how SMB and channel and marketing and you're someone, through your various positions, have owned a lot of that sort of strategy and execution.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Maybe, for the uninitiated, you could give us a little bit of a highlight reel in terms of what you've done.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Sure, I'll start by saying I spent about 20 years which always makes me feel a little older than I'm ready to admit 20 years in both B2B and B2C marketing.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: I actually love going back and forth and now I'd say I'm even in B2B2C marketing back and forth, and now I'd say I'm even in B2B2C marketing, mostly in tech.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: At the heart of who I am, I actually consider myself a scientist and a storyteller.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: A little bit of that started because early in my career I was in pharma.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: I actually graduated with an honor special science.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: I was going to be a dentist when I grew up.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: That's a whole other story for another day.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: But now you know I get to combine some of my background with what I also love doing, which is creativity and storytelling.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: I love building teams.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: I love digging into data and insights and then turning that into stories that I would say drive action One of the things that actually is funny, because we were just talking about this a little bit.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: I love building high performing, diverse teams that are just as passionate about marketing as I am.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, science and storytelling I think that's one hell of a sort of subtitle what marketers end up doing, right?
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: I think the science element is often missed in terms of that iteration and reiteration.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Iteration and reiteration um, one of the things we were discussing and I was getting far too nerdy and excited about in our prep call is where smb marketing should sit.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: I think a lot in in terms of b2b tech it often is downstream of enterprise and so that sort of means that, um, yeah, some of the metrics and the performance criteria are sort of pulled from enterprise and abm tactics, which sort of doesn't make much sense and sometimes, I see, see it upstream of consumer.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Talk to me about how you see that blend coming together.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: So let me start, and to your point we did get into a little geek out conversation about this and I know you feel similar is SMBs are unique, right, they're a unique audience and it's not necessarily about scaling the strategy from enterprise or moving it up from consumer.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: It's really about building intentionally for the SMB audiences, based on their needs, right, and then meeting them where they are in.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: A pragmatic example is especially in tech is they want business-based solutions, but they want it with the simplicity of a consumer.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: So how do we make technology approachable and really look at it from their needs, their outcomes they're looking to solve, and then talk to them in that language?
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Increasingly, the brand tone and voice and this is back to storytelling, right, brand tone and voice matters.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: And there was this really interesting stat that I remember seeing and it said more than 60% of SMBs don't say that they feel like they're not being marketed to them in a way that resonates.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: So more than 60% of SMBs don't feel marketed in a way that resonates.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: So one, what a massive opportunity to get it right, right.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: And then again, so how do we talk to them in a way that is resonating with them?
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: And I know this will segue into the next question, which is well then, if you had to choose right.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think we're always looking for efficiency, right, which means we want to cannibalize from somewhere.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: What's your view in terms of if you had to cannibalize from enterprise or from consumer, which is a smaller jump?
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so and again I say this with a lot of love as someone that has done both what I have found is for the marketers that have maybe just grown up in enterprise marketing, they tend to default to strategies that are familiar for enterprise, right, and so you know, I'll say two examples of where maybe you might get it wrong if you're looking at just through the enterprise lens, which is an enterprise, we know that it's long sales cycles and high touch sales motions, right.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: But here's another I love, by the way, I love data.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: So another data point the average SMB sales cycle it's 30 to 90 days, and so far shorter than the almost 12 months sometimes right In enterprise.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: And the SMB customer has completed about 70% of their journey digitally, right.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: So they're already researching and comparing and forming decisions through digital channels long before they even talk to sales.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: So if you kind of just look at those two stats, well, guess what that mimics?
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: It mimics the consumer buyer, the consumer shopper, and I mean just think about how you and I shop, right.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: And so I do think there is an advantage, uh, and I'll say an advantage, um, an advantage in applying more of the consumer marketing mindset into targeting, uh, smb's customers.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I I couldn't agree more and I like the word intentionality right.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: So I don't think it's a copy paste job from consumer to SMB.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: But I think the analogy I always give is I've never spoken to an Apple sales rep in my life.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: I've bought basically every product they make and that's because I'm a consumer of their marketing and that informs my decision making.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: Also, then, when I, when I set up my own business, inform my decision making in terms of what I procured from a business perspective.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Um, because the it buyer in a 30 to 50 fte business is just a consumer right, whereas the it buyer for a 30 000 business is not.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: It's a committee, there's a procurement process, there's a whole matrix organization designed to support those workflows and so, yeah, understanding and sort of starting where the customer wants to be met, and that is such a small jump.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: But there are obviously some very specific nuances that you need to add in there, nuances that you need to add in there.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I think is really interesting in terms of channel organization and maybe architecture is that many channel leaders come from a sales background which, again, never spoken to an Apple sales rep.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: So do you think SMB channel leaders should come from marketing instead.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: I'm not cheating, but I'm going to say both.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: Cheating, but I'm going to say both.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: And now you know you could force my hand, but but you know, hear me out.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: I do believe SMB channel leaders could absolutely benefit from having marketing, but I would say marketing and sales right.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: And my real life example who would also be an amazing guest one day is Andrew Sage.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: Andrew Sage is a phenomenal channel leader that I had the privilege of partnering at Cisco and he spent several years in marketing several years and our partnership was probably one of the best partnerships I had with the sales leader and I've had some great relationships right, but it really came from a place of mutual trust but also like really deep appreciation for the experience we both brought to the table and ultimately, everything we did was anchored with being partner first and customer obsessed.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: And he did get it.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: So, yes, you know he had both said that he's probably a rare leader, a rare channel leader that had sales and marketing.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: So I would say in those situations, a great channel leader just ensures that these two functions are tightly aligned right when together, marketing and sales are operating with shared accountability, goals and a unified go-to-market strategy.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: So we can get that right, we're good well, I hear great things about andrew.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: You're not the first person on this podcast, so, um, I think it starts with copy paste.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: How do we clone andrew?
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: But then, yeah, how do we uh, how do we understand the real value that each of those singular departments can buy, uh, can bring?
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I've often talked about is that channel leaders often come up with the same program designs and the same strategies, and it's because they come from the same background and I don't mean geographically or economically, I mean they sometimes are all born in distribution.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: They've come up through the same career ladder.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: They've seen a lot of the same programs with medal statuses that all work sort of similarly and so, as you say, you pull from what you know.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: One of the things I found really interesting about your career is you've built sort of startup teams in wider organizations.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: What are some of those leading principles that guide you from how you build a team, how you set up a culture, how you make sure you pull from those different backgrounds?
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to ask that question, but you sparked an idea.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Idea, and one of the things I said is, you know we might go back and forth and um, when you're talking about, I mean, alex, one of the things you should think about is creating a podcast where you bring sales and marketing together and actually have the banter between sales.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Anyways, I'll leave that with you, but as you're talking about that, I mean, what an amazing opportunity for someone like you, who has an amazing voice in the industry, to maybe help us bridge the sales and marketing gap.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: I'm now gonna be half uh pondering what my next podcast program is going to look like I'm gonna have to dial in luxie.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: Make sure I'm not dribbling while I think about how, what the next uh, what the next uh series looks like, but yeah, I definitely think.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: Um, I think there's so much to learn and especially in smb, the cohesion almost has to be more tight.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Right, I've seen great sales leaders, who have been somewhat supported by marketing, drive amazing business in enterprise, in consumer.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: I see great marketing leaders drive huge amount of sales with no, almost no sales influence.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: But in smb that's really where that has to meet in the middle in a great way.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, maybe.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: I have to get back on track.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: Two leadership principles, I would say one leadership principle.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: I have two of them.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: Actually, one leadership principle that I really, really lean into is start with purpose, not process, and to me that is so incredibly important because, as we sort of to a point on like, how do we build great teams within teams, you know you got to start with understanding where the organization is today, where it needs to go, and, in my case, how can my team uniquely contribute to that journey?
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: And so, really starting with understanding from a perspective of, like, what is the purpose we can play, and so, you know, listening, whether that is internally across the business, with other business units, but I would say definitely also then listening to, again to the point of customers and partners, right, build the shared vision we can define what success looks like and then worry about the process.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: So, again, so start with purpose, not process.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: The second, as we then get into building teams, is probably my second principle.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: It is hire for potential, not perfection.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: And one it's probably because I gave a lot of credit to where I am because of leaders that thought the same way and gave me opportunities based on my potential, and so I do the same thing.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: You know I look for leaders that are energized by ambiguity, that are going to complement each other around the leadership table, and you know, you and I talked a bit about that, like so you don't have the same thinking.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: You want to bring different perspectives and that really want to solve problems that don't have a playbook, and so you know that's where I go next.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that because I think I very warmly tell this story.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: But I got a job that I was far too junior to do at Zoom, running their distribution strategy for EMEA, and it really has influenced how I hire today, which is sort of, yes, where you are today matters, but where's your ceiling and how likely are you to get there?
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: And I think what I really see is when you put that trust and direction into team members, they really sit there and go okay, you've shown me this belief.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: That means I need that belief in myself and then you know, great things happen from there.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: One of the things when you start to build those teams together and you're hiring on potential is you need to sort of sense for almost cultural markers, right.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: How are people developing themselves?
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: How are people developing processes and programs to drive forward?
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: What are some of those markers?
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: you look for Psychological safety, right, and I'll tell you a little bit more about what that means.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: And I'm not gonna, you know, um, try to get to, um, like, take this conversation a completely different direction.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: But I'm such a huge believer in that because, um, the idea of safe space is where you're going to unlock the best of innovation, creativity and even, like, real collaboration.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: It's so incredibly important for us to make people feel empowered.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, even your example of being hired, I mean you were empowered, you felt safe, obviously Right, and you probably made amazing things happen, right.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: And so you know, how do we create that safe space where people can be empowered to bring their full selves, challenge ideas, take those smart risks.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: And, oh, the most important, which honestly took me a long time to get to, is speak the uncomfortable truth, right, speak the uncomfortable truth.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: I've actually now been able to say to organizations and leaders I'm not here to admire the problem.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: Most of the time, we know exactly what we need to do.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: We need to do something about it, and so how do we start to create and have those uncomfortable truth conversations?
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: So I think that is incredibly important, and I would say the other thing is and we've all been in that room where the same people always speak, and then there's that quiet person in the room that is brilliant, right?
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Or we don't even know how brilliant they are, and so my other thing is then create space especially for the quiet ones in the room to share their perspective, because sometimes you never know, your best idea may come from that person that was really quiet.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's really interesting to hear you talk about safe spaces, because I think one of the things when I hear that lots of people jump to oh great, now I can't say anything.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: And what's funny is you said safe space and uncomfortable truth simultaneously, right, which an old mentor of mine told me something and even to this day I use it as a mantra.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: But there's no balance in honesty, which is sometimes honesty is painful, right, it's uncomfortable.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: Now, honesty must be rewarded, which is if we are in a safe space.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: It means you trust in me that I'll be 100% honest and I'll trust in you that you are going to be okay hearing 100% honesty and that's what that collaboration really looks like, because otherwise you end up with these half truths and things unspoken, and that's not what innovation and collaboration comes from.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: Right no, I wrote that down.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: No balance and honesty yeah, it's something that I think maybe it's my britishness and and our unique ability to not say things completely openly, which I had, certainly in the infancy of my career, had a habit of doing, and he was like, look, if you think it's a bad idea, say it's a bad idea.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Now, say it kindly, right, there's no, there's no need to be brutal about it.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: But if you don't agree, we have to have an environment where we can create wonderful conflict that ultimately, is sort of progressive to what we're trying to achieve I love that.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Sounds like a really great mentor he, he really is um, so um.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: One of the things that we were then geeking out on because we had a very geeky uh prep call um was mentorship, um, and how it's played a big role in how you shape your teams, your leaders, your culture.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: What's the best piece of advice a mentor gave you that still influences and drives you forward today?
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: There's so many wonderful things that I've learned and have been mentored around.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: The one that sticks to me, that I try to live by, is the true impact of leadership isn't what you achieve, it's how you empower others to achieve and that you know.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: To me it really resonates, because it's this concept, that leadership is about lifting others, and you talked about this even in your own example with Zoom right.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: It's unlocking other potential.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Um and so for me, you know, whether that's mentorship or sponsorship or inclusive leadership.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: You know, I think when we empower others to shine, we're not just building great teams for today, but we're also building legacy and um.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: I always say my job is done when I'm actually not needed yeah, there are other leaders that can step in yeah, I, I love this so much.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: I'm um.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: There's a really good friend of mine.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: We've worked, uh, we've worked.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: He actually works at janet's uh today, and he's always had this like oh, do I want to be a manager leader or do I want to be an ic?
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: He's one hell of a salesperson, so he's got lots of routes open um to him and I always sort of chuckle because I say I say leadership is painful, it's so much extra work, so you have to find the rewarding feeling from the extra work that comes from when you're not the one scoring the goal right, and if, intrinsically, that's not the thing that motivates you, don't worry.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: There's wonderful careers.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Being an amazing, I see, whatever function you do um, but that really has to come from.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Do I want someone else?
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Do I want the assist rather than the goal?
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: And if, if that's the case, then you, I really think intrinsically you're built for leadership.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: But yeah, that that has to come with a certain level of humility, right where it's like hey, my role is not to be at the front, it's actually to be at the back um, or leading by example.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: And I think if you can find those and really if you're looking at your team and you're talking about who deserves the promotion to leadership.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: I often find in that meeting environment, it's not the one that talks the loudest, it's the one that gives space for the great idea, um which I say now, recognizing the amount of times that I've probably spoken too much um, but I think that's that if you see someone presenting space for the right idea to come to the front, that's exactly the person who should be in that leadership position.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Oh, I oh, that resonates so much.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, two things that come to my mind immediately is um, leadership is the hardest job if you're doing it right.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: And, uh, when you talk about humility, I've often said out loud, um, that I'm a work in progress leader and right because, like still figuring it out yeah, yeah, I mean anyone, um, whether it's the political climate at the moment, the economic climate at the moment, or leadership principles, anyone who says they've got a definitive answer is just wrong, and that's coming from the person who has a podcast as a profession.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I really think that you know, most of this is just honesty, even honesty in our own failings, insecurities, misunderstanding of the situation, misunderstanding of context, and then, in that honesty, you just have to trust in your team that they are mature enough, grown up enough, trust you enough that, hey, we're going to get through this either way, right?
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Agreed.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: So you said intentionality when it came to building out SMB versus enterprise versus consumer, but you also described building your career with intentionality, which I think is a really interesting way of thinking about how you should push yourself forward.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: Looking back, what would you tell your younger self about trusting your instincts?
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: This is actually really personal as a question, um, as someone that, uh, you know so I'm Canadian, out here in Toronto, my parents are immigrants, you know, so it's a a great story over drinks.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: Um, and again, as a woman in tech, you know, uh, wasn't always the easiest.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: You know lots of stories, like many others probably out there, that can share, and so I would say to myself trust that you belong.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: This role wasn't handed to you.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: It was earned through grit and resilience and results.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: You didn't get here by accident, and I think this is the one thing that's so important I'm still figuring it out is you're not expected to lead like everyone else, and your perspective, young Luxie, especially when it challenges the status quo, is exactly what the room needs.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: I'm sort of again a different mentor of mine.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: He always used to talk me through, alex, what does it bring and what does it take away?
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: Because I, what I've really found from building a large now executive network on the back of this podcast is the most senior people, typically, I found the one with the biggest insecurities, which is interesting, right, but I think the thing that that comes from is what does it bring you?
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Well, it makes you really driven to take that next mile right, push even harder outwork, the competition, and then what does it take?
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Even when you do all of that, you're still nervous that you don't quite belong and I really and you know a younger, less mature me would have not seen those two things as the same but I really just more and more understand the real importance of it wasn't given to you, you didn't luck out, you earned it.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: But there is a downside to earning it, which is maybe you didn't really feel like you deserve it, but that thing continues to push you forward and so, yeah, I think there's real, again, humility and understanding where you've come from and also why you're here and where you're headed.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: I think you know on the back of that is also and I'm sure I'm not alone and I'd love to know if this resonated with you as well is we don't need to fit into leadership, like we don't need to fit into the examples of leadership that exists today.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: I think our role is to reshape what leadership could look like.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I again, I sort of maybe I'm just slightly obsessed with the phrase, but there's just no balance in honesty, which is I remember Ricky Gervais is an English comedian, writes lots of great shows.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: He wrote the Office.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: He talks a lot that he just writes programs that he wants to watch and then the audience will come.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: So his job is not to create a show that an audience will like, his job is to create his show.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: I think the same is true of leadership, right?
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: The greatness in building, being a leader is you get to pick your team, and so you pick your team, and whether you succeed or fail, is an outcome, but don't pick someone else's team.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Pick your team.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Um and in in.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: In doing it, that is, you fit the leadership, because that's the great thing that you always buy design Right, um, and so just be the leader that you wish you had, I suppose yes, oh, love it fine.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: So maybe, um, you've given yourself, um, some advice.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: Let's land on some final piece for some, some other people, some advice for our listeners trying to chart their own path in channel what's one practical habit or one mindset shift they should take to really stand out, stay ahead, keep pushing.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: Make the shift from thinking about how you could support the partner to how you can build with the partner, and I'll explain that a little bit because it's a nuance, but it's really, really important.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: As someone before I went into global, I spent a lot of time in the field, and I'll explain that a little bit because it's a nuance, but it's really, really important.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: As someone before I went into global, I spent a lot of time in the field, and so in the field because I'm working hand in hand with partners and customers and sales I realized the most successful initiatives weren't built in isolation.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: They were co-created with the understanding of the partner's needs and their shared goals, and so, to me, channel or partner marketing is really about alignment, and so understanding your partner's business like it's your own and then showing up as a growth strategist is incredibly important.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: So a really really, really simple question when you are in that moment of either you're stuck or you're trying to build something or you're trying to influence a conversation, ask yourself the question if I were running their business, what would I need from them?
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: So put yourself in their shoes.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I, yeah.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: I think this is the difference between being a nice to have and a must have, right?
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Whereas hey, we're this awesome marketing program and we're going to give you some budget, versus like, hey, this is the uncomfortable truth you need to hear and here's where we're going to build something that's more successful.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the lovely thing and this is the bit I'm sort of slightly obsessed with when it comes to the channel sometimes having that really uncomfortable conversation where a partner's making a mistake or why we've made a mistake and we need to do better.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: Together, you get such reciprocity because that partner is going to be there.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Whether you're at Cisco or Microsoft or AWS, right, You're going to continue to be in the ecosystem, and that's where great reputations come from.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: Agreed, agreed.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Love it.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: So we gave Luxie some younger advice, we gave the channel some advice, and now I'd like some advice.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: We always ask our current guests to recommend our next guest.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Luxie.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Who did you have in mind?
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: So the person that immediately came to my mind is actually just one of my favorite humans also.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: Not only is she brilliant, she's also just an amazing person Julia Chen, who leads partner core at AWS.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: I had the privilege of working for Julia or working with Julia, and I just remember being in awe of watching her navigate complexity in an organization in a conversation with vision, but that she does it with so much care that you can't help but want to be part of that journey with her.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: So I would definitely say she would bring a ton of perspective to your podcast and if you do reach out to her, say Luxie says hi, julia, we're coming for you.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: Luxie, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: It's been awesome.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: Oh, this is so much fun.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: I can't believe how quickly the time has gone.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Thanks.