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Ryan Holiday (2022) - Stoicism, Sport and Society · The Joe Rogan Recap

• 0:00
  Welcome to the Joe Rogan recap. Today we're diving deep into a
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  recent conversation on The Joe Rogan Experience, specifically
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  episode Hashtag 1836 featuring Ryan Holiday.
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  Yes, Ryan Holiday. People probably know him best
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  for his work on stoicism, making it really accessible and also
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  his stuff on like media manipulation.
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  Exactly. And our goal today really is to
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  unpack the key insights, the stories from this pretty
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  extensive conversation. Yeah, pull out the most valuable
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  Nuggets for you, whether you're looking for, you know, practical
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  wisdom, maybe a new perspective, or just some fascinating
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  anecdotes. Right.
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  Think of it as your shortcut to the core ideas they talked
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  about. We're extracting the takeaways,
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  the fresh angles and those moments that really make you
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  think. And there's a lot there.
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  We're going from holidays like early days in Hollywood, which
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  sounds pretty intense, all the way to deep dives on Stoic
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  philosophy, media's impact, even societal progress.
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  A real range. So where should we kick things
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  off? Well, how about his early
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  career? That Hollywood extreme seems
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  pretty formative. Yeah, he jumps right into it.
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  Talks about dropping out of college at 19, landing a job at
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  a talent agency in Hollywood. Pretty wild start.
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  And not just any job, right? He was also research assistant
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  for Robert Green, the author of The 48 Laws of Power.
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  Right, which leads to this story.
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  He mentions a partner at the agency seeing that book, The 48
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  Laws of Power, on his desk and immediately getting suspicious.
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  Like perceiving him as too ambitious, too calculating, just
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  for having the book. Exactly.
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  It really gives you a feel for that environment, you know, high
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  stakes, maybe a bit paranoid. It definitely highlights how
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  perceptions get formed, how even small things can be interpreted
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  in those kinds of competitive settings.
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  Yeah, makes you think about self-awareness, doesn't it?
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  Totally. And for Holiday, that whole
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  Hollywood vibe, it was kind of negative, actually made him
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  realize something important. What was that?
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  He figured out he don't want to just take a percentage of other
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  people's work. You know, he wanted to create
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  something himself. That desire for agency to be the
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  source, not just the facilitator, that's a powerful
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  drive for a lot of people. Yeah, and that pushed him
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  somewhere completely different. Next director of marketing at
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  American Apparel. Whoa, talk about a shift.
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  He described it as encountering some crazy, crazy people there,
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  but those experiences, however weird, they actually fed into
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  his writing later on. Which makes sense.
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  You need that raw material, right?
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  Those diverse, maybe even challenging experiences give you
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  something unique to say about, well, human behavior.
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  Absolutely, and he shared this piece of advice he got from a
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  writer back then. Writers live interesting lives.
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  That really hits home. It's not just about sitting down
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  to type. It's about engaging with the
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  world, gathering those experiences, developing your own
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  viewpoint. You can't really write about
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  life if you haven't, you know, lived it a bit.
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  Which kind of transitions nicely into the Stoicism part of the
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  conversation. He talks about discovering
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  Marcus Aurelius Meditations when he was, what, 19?
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  Yeah, and he describes it as totally transformative, like a
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  lightning bolt moment. And what really got him, he
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  said, was how personal it felt. Here's the most powerful guy in
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  the world, basically writing notes just for himself.
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  Not for us, not for publication. Just raw thoughts and the crazy
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  thing is how relevant it all still feels, right?
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  This Roman emperor, unimaginable power and wealth.
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  But he's dealing with the same core human stuff, Anxiety,
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  frustration, trying to be good. It's incredibly granding.
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  That universality, that's a huge part of Stoicism's appeal, isn't
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  it doesn't matter if you're an emperor or, you know, just
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  trying to get through Tuesday. The inner work is kind of the
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  same. Definitely, They also made a
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  point about translations, didn't they?
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  Finding the right one for meditations.
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  Yeah, they recommended the Gregory Hayes 1 specifically
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  said it was more lyrical, accessible anyway.
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  That's actually a really key point.
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  A good translation makes all the difference in connecting with
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  these ancient texts. Hayes is known for feeling more
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  modern, more immediate. And wasn't the original language
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  Greek even though Aurelius was Roman?
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  It was, which is fascinating. Greek was sort of the language
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  of philosophy back then in the Roman Empire.
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  Shows how much influence Greek thought had.
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  Holiday even mentioned some of the more poetic bits in
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  Meditations, like imagery of nature, stock of grain and olive
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  falling, bread breaking. Those small observations, right?
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  They show this deep appreciation for the present moment, for the
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  ordinary world that's very stoic, that mindfulness.
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  And then there was that concept not becoming caesarified or dyed
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  purple. Yeah, the purple dye for the
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  Emperor's cloak was super rare, super expensive, made from sea
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  snails, this whole complex process.
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  The phrase was like a warning. Don't let the power the status
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  corrupt. You don't get dyed purple.
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  A powerful metaphor. Stay grounded.
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  Focus on your inner character, your virtue, not the external
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  trappings. Classic Stoic Caution against
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  letting power change who you are.
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  Which flows right into how Stoicism helps you deal with
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  life's, well, obstacle. They mentioned Holiday's book
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  The Obstacle is the Way. The core idea there is just
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  reframing, seeing challenges not as roadblocks but as
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  opportunities, opportunities for growth, for building resilience.
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  Even his kind of rough Hollywood start looking back, he sees how
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  it totally changed his path for the better.
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  Exactly. And the real strength of
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  Stoicism, they both seem to agree, is that focus on what you
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  can control your thoughts, your reactions, your judgments.
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  Everything else, it's outside your control, so you learn to
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  accept it. That's the bedrock, right?
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  Direct your energy inward. Which brings us to this really
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  interesting bit about physical discipline and mental strength.
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  They're deeply connected in Stoicism.
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  Right. Holiday pointed out that a lot
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  of ancient stoics weren't just thinkers.
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  They were like warriors, runners, boxers.
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  Yeah, their philosophy wasn't just abstract thought, it was
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  lived physically. Their metaphors often came from
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  that physical experience. That Seneca quote really stood
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  out. We treat the body rigorously so
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  that it will not be disobedient to the mind.
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  It's not about punishing yourself, it's about asserting
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  control. Things like cold showers or
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  tough workouts. They're training the mind to be
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  in charge of the body's urges, its desire for comfort.
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  Cultivating self mastery. They even brought up that quote
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  from John Joseph, the CRO Mags guy, about doing an Iron Man.
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  Oh yeah, that's when your mind has to tell your body who the FS
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  in charge. Yeah, that pretty much sums it
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  up, that mental toughness you build.
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  And that toughness, that resilience you build overcoming
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  physical struggle, it absolutely translates.
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  It helps you face any kind of difficulty.
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  Like writing a tough book or dealing with personal stuff,
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  that foundation is there. It builds this kind of
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  confidence. Reservoir.
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  Yeah. You know, you can get through
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  hard things because you've done it before.
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  Discomfort becomes less intimidating.
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  They use Cameron Haynes as an example to the ultra marathon
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  bowhunter. His insane physical training
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  helps him stay calm under pressure.
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  That's that stoic stillness, anorexia.
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  They mentioned his training isn't just physical, it's mental
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  conditioning, managing discomfort, staying clear
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  headed. That inner calm is a huge goal
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  in Stoicism. And it's cumulative, right?
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  The more you face hard stuff, the easier it gets to handle the
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  next thing, like fighters getting used to being in the
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  ring. Exactly.
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  Repeated exposure builds that psychological armor.
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  Your mind just gets better at navigating stress.
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  So then the conversation shifts gears a bit, moving towards
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  media and the feeling of just being overloaded with
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  information all the time. Yeah, that hits close to home
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  for a lot of us. I think they talk about the
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  danger of grabbing your phone first thing in the morning,
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  checking social media. And immediately getting like
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  riled up or anxious before you've even had coffee.
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  Right. They contrasted it with Peter
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  Adia's approach, scanning e-mail for actual fires that need
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  putting out versus just getting sucked into the emotional churn
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  of the feed. That phrase, the constant buzz
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  of subtle anxiety, Yeah, it feels very real.
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  This nonstop flow of information just creates this background hum
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  of unease. The key take away seems to be
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  about being deliberate. Limiting that input, especially
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  early in the day, is crucial for, you know, mental clarity
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  and focus. They also touched on dealing
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  with online criticism. Rogan's obviously dealt with a
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  ton of it. Can you build resilience to
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  that? It seems you can build a degree
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  of maybe thicker skin, but they also acknowledge that
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  negativity, especially anonymous stuff, can still pile up and
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  have an effect. Learning to filter the noise
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  from actual feedback is key. Yeah, that feeling of
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  helplessness when it's just anonymous attacks.
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  Yeah. What do you even do with that?
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  It's tough. The anonymity definitely
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  changes. The dynamic allows for stuff
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  people wouldn't say face to face.
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  Makes real engagement hard. And there's the point about how
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  social media can warp your view of the world, right?
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  You're constantly seeing all the problems everywhere all at once.
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  Which isn't really your reality. day-to-day creates this sense of
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  overwhelm. Like the world is constantly on
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  fire and you feel powerless. It's important to keep
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  perspective. The comparison they made was
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  stark. The amount of info an average
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  person sees today versus like a president or even Marcus
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  Aurelius centuries ago, it's mind boggling.
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  Our brains just aren't wired for this volume information fatigue.
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  Difficulty telling what actually matters.
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  It's a real challenge. Which led to a quick mention of
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  future tech like Neuralink. Could something like that help
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  manage the flood? Maybe it's still very early
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  days, obviously lots of ethical questions there too, but it
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  points towards potential future ways of interacting with
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  information. Then they moved on to
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  comparison. That old saying comparison is
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  the thief of joy. So true, and they had that
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  anecdote about actors on a sitcom.
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  Oh yeah, they were successful, had a good gig, but they were
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  totally fixated on why other people on the show seem to be
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  doing even better. Instead of just appreciating
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  what they had. It's such an easy trap to fall
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  into, especially in competitive fields.
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  Completely undermines your own satisfaction.
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  Stoic angle, of course, is gratitude.
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  Focus on what you have, on your own path, your own work.
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  Trying to be the best you can be in your situation, not
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  constantly looking sideways because where does that energy
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  go? Right.
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  Your mental bandwidth is limited.
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  If you're spending it dwelling on comparisons or negativity,
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  you have less focus for your own stuff.
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  Which loops back perfectly to that core Stoic idea, control
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  versus no control. Putting energy into external
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  stuff, what other people think, what they have, things you can't
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  influence, it just counterproductive.
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  Yeah, it actively takes away from what you can influence your
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  own choices, your own effort, your attitude.
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  And they noted this is an always what modern societies is it?
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  There's so much focus on external validation.
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  Absolutely. Status, likes, followers,
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  promotions. The focus is often outward,
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  which can disconnect us from our own internal values and what
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  actually brings fulfillment. There is also that interesting
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  idea. Sometimes we get really caught
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  up in external problems and maybe big societal issues.
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  As a way to avoid looking inward.
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  Yeah, possibly. Like it's easier to get angry
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  about something out there than to deal with your own anxieties
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  or shortcomings. That resonates.
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  It can be a distraction from the harder personal work.
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  They even drew a parallel to 12 step programs, the idea of
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  accepting a higher power. Recognizing you're not the
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  center of the universe, surrendering what you can't
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  control. It's similar to the Stoic
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  acceptance. It frees you up to focus on what
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  you can do your own actions. Master what's in your control
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  first. That seems to be the message.
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  Then the conversation broadened out again.
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  Looking at how media itself evolves and shapes us, Neil
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  Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death came up.
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  Such a relevant book. Still, the parallels between TV
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  back then and social media now prioritizing entertainment may
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  be shaping how we think. It's interesting how every new
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  media seems to get that reaction initially right.
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  Concerns about the printing press making people dumb, then
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  TV, now the Internet. Yeah, this fear that the new
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  thing will ruin us somehow. They also mentioned Daniel
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  Boorstin and pseudo events. Events basically created for
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  media coverage, blurring the line between what's real and
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  what's just manufactured for attention.
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  And Upton Sinclair's The Brass Check, showing that worries
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  about media bias and sensationalism are like over a
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  century old. These aren't new problems, they
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  just take different forms depending on the technology of
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  the medium. So the question becomes, how did
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  different media shape us? What do they incentivize?
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  They compared modern short attention spans to, say, the
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  Lincoln Douglas debates, which required hours of focus.
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  Big difference. And they looked at books versus,
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  say, blog posts. Books take time.
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  Editing. Reader investment.
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  Well, some online stuff is designed for that quick hit,
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  that immediate emotional reaction.
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  Which led them to suggest podcasting might be potentially
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  a more positive modern medium. Because of the long format,
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  right allows for nuance, deeper conversation, less reliant on
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  sound bites. Yeah, the incentives are
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  different. Does the medium encourage
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  thoughtful engagement or just quick reactions?
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  Does it make us smarter or Dumber?
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  We need to be critical consumers.
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  Which ties into how Rogan approaches his own podcast.
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  He basically just talks to people he finds interesting.
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  No grand strategy for growth, Not chasing guests just for
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  clicks. It's driven by genuine
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  curiosity. And the show grew organically,
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  mostly word of mouth, because people responded to that
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  authenticity. It's a different model.
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  They compared it a bit to Substack, where creators have
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  that direct, often paid relationship with their
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  audience. Which has upsides but also
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  potential downsides like audience capture.
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  Yeah, the risk that you start maybe unconsciously tailoring
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  what you say to keep that paying audience happy rather than just
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  pursuing what you think is true or interesting.
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  You see it sometimes, right? Comedians, Political
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  commentators, they find a groove that resonates with their base
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  and they stick to it, maybe even amplify it.
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  It can lead to reinforcing biases, creating echo chambers.
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  That's why having opinions that don't neatly fit one side or the
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  other is probably healthy. Being willing to challenge your
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  own side even and considering the practical side of big ideas
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  like Ubi, Universal basic income.
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  Right, moving beyond the ideal to think about the real world
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  complexities and consequences, which opened up that whole
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  discussion about poverty and motivation.
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  Yeah, that was complex poverty as this double edged thing,
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  sometimes a motivator out of sheer necessity, but also
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  incredibly destructive. It's not simple.
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  And they critique that old saying, if you're not liberal
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  when you're young, you have no heart.
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  If you're not conservative when you're older, you have no brain.
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  Because it's just too simplistic, right?
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  It dismisses genuine shifts in perspective or the complexities
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  of belief. Totally.
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  And then that really grim anecdote about the robbery, the
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  death over just $20. Just highlights the desperation
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  poverty can create and frankly the failures in society when
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  people are in that position. And underscores that key point.
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  People don't start from the same place.
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  Life circumstances vary wildly. Recognizing those vastly
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  different starting points is crucial, which led them to talk
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  about the student loan system. Calling it potentially
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  exploitative. Creating this crushing, often
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  unforgivable debt right at the start of adult life.
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  Yeah, questioning the value proposition of college now, with
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  the cost soaring and so much information available elsewhere.
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  Is the debt always worth it? It's a valid question.
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  And then the slightly counterintuitive idea If
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  education was totally free, would people value it as much?
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  That paradox again, like poverty, sometimes having to
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  strive for something makes you appreciate it more.
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  It's complicated. And they noted how many people
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  from tough backgrounds end up in really dangerous, physically
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  demanding jobs like boxing. Because other doors just aren't
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  open, It's seen as one of the few ways out.
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  Which then brought them to the dangers of those sports, Yeah,
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  specifically CTE and football. Yeah, referencing that JAMA
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  study showing high rates of CTE even in amateur players.
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  It's really concerning stuff. Rogan talked openly about his
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  own conflict there, loving MMA, commentating on it, but being
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  acutely aware of the risks. He even mentioned stopping his
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  own martial arts competition young because he was worried
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  about the long term cognitive effects.
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  And he urged athletes to think about their long term health,
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  their brain function over pushing through in dangerous
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  sports. It's irreversible damage.
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  It's a tough balance, isn't it, enjoying the spectacle but
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  knowing the human cost involved. Definitely raises questions
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  about our enjoyment of violent entertainment and the choices
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  athletes make, especially if their options feel limited.
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  This broader question of choice versus circumstance.
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  Which loops back to the final part of the conversation,
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  looking at human cruelty historically but also
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  acknowledging progress. Yeah, despite the terrible
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  things that still happen, comparing now to the past, it's
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  stark, that anecdote about the corrupt judge.
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  Being skinned alive and his skin used for his son's chair.
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  Yeah, horrific. A reminder at how brutal things
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  once were. So while you can point to
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  hypocrisy like the founding fathers owning slaves while
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  talking freedom. You also have to acknowledge we
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  have moved away from that kind of overt, state sanctioned
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  cruelty. Progress isn't always linear or
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  perfect, but it's there. They talked about the lingering
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  effects though Confederate monuments, still feeling the
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  divisions from the Civil War. These things have long shadows.
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  Absolutely. Addressing those historical
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  injustices and the disadvantages people still face because of
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  them, that's crucial for making things better.
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  Progress takes constant effort, right?
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  Bending that arc of history towards justice, as they say.
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  And maybe modern communication, despite all its issues with
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  misinformation, can help by shining a light on inequality,
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  by connecting people. There's also a quick mention of
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  self help, how it's evolved, and the need to balance positive
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  thinking with actual work. Right.
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  The law of attraction is enough. You got to put in the effort
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  too. Which brings us back to stoicism
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  and ambition, the idea that tying your happiness to external
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  results is risky. Because those results aren't
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  fully in your control, the focus should be internal pride in your
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  effort doing your best. Finding satisfaction in the work
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  itself, regardless of the awards or the recognition, that's the
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  real measure. Did you give it your all?
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  Did you act with integrity? That's what matters, Not leaving
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  anything on the table, as they put it, seizing the time you
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  have. So quite a journey through that
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  conversation. This deep dive into the Rogan
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  episode with Ryan Holiday really covered a lot of ground.
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  It really did. From personal ambition and
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  stoicoping mechanisms to media's influence societal progress.
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  Lots to chew on. We've hit on physical
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  discipline, managing information overload, the complexities of
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  poverty and motivation, the ethics of sport, The Longview of
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  history. Hopefully pulling out these
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  threads has given you some memorable points, maybe a few
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  aha moments, and just a clearer picture of the key ideas they
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  discussed. Yeah, maybe some things to think
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  about in your own life. Like, are you focusing your
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  energy on what you can actually control?
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  How are you navigating this nonstop flood of information?
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  What does progress even look like to you in today's world?
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  Lots of questions, and really this deep dive is just
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  scratching the surface. If any of this resonated,
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  definitely check out Ryan Holiday's work.
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  Maybe dig more into Stoicism itself.
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  Keep questioning. Keep exploring those forces that
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  shape our lives. Thanks for joining us for this
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  recap.