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Have We Ever Really Read Jung? Sonu Shamdasani on the Collected Works Crisis · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to This Jungian Life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
• 0:28
  Speaker 4: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst in Cape Cod.
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: So, Lisa, I hear that you recently were talking with
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: Sonu about this big project that the Philemon Foundation is
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: taking on. They are going through the collected works with
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: a fine-tooth comb. They seem to be challenging a lot
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: of the editorial decisions that were made in the first
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: round in translation. So what did you find out?
• 1:07
  Speaker 4: And by the way, let's... Let's let everybody know that
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: you were just in Zurich, Switzerland, for the International Conference
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: on Analytical Psychology and talking with Sonu Shamdasani, the premier
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: historian of all things Jungian and the man responsible for
• 1:29
  Speaker 4: bringing the Red Book to the public.
• 1:32
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: So what I'll say is that.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: When we had Sonu, who is, as you said, he's
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: really the world's leading authority on Jungian scholarship, like hands down.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: You know, he's kind of a rock star. And we
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: had him on the podcast. It would have been in
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: 20 or 21 when the Black Books came out. And
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: we should link to that episode. But we had a
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: wonderful conversation with him, which I remember very well. And
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: I remember him in that conversation talking about the need
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: to reissue the collected works. And, you know, he said
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: they need to be re-edited and re-translated. And he talked
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: about how they were, the collected works are arranged thematically
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: rather than chronologically. And I remember he talked about, you know,
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: wanting to reissue them and do it chronologically. And it
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: just sort of swept over me. First of all, what
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: a tremendous amount of work that would be. but also
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: how wonderful that would be because you'd really be able
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: to understand the, you know, the development of Jung's thinking.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: So I remember in our conversation, him saying this, and
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: I just, the penny sort of dropped and I went, God, yes.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: But he was, you know, he was talking about how
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: much money it would be to do that and how
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: that just didn't really seem something that was feasible and
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: sort of off in a distant Dreamland. So there I
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: was in Zurich at the International Congress of the International
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Association for Analytical Psychology, which is the sort of the,
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: you know, Jungian Coachella. You know, it's the big conference
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: that we have every every three years. And this time
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: was in was in Zurich.
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: At least it's not Burning Man.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: It's just Coachella. Okay. But and there it was on
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: the program.
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: That's hilarious, by the way, the thought of Like a
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: hundred Jungians at Burning Man is such a fabulous, fabulous image.
• 3:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: Maybe we should put it on. This Jungian life, Burning Man.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it's an idea that could
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: have legs.
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: It's a great idea.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: But there wasn't the program. You know, Sonu Shamdasani, the
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: critical edition of the Collected Works. And I was like, well, what?
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: So I made sure I went to that presentation. I
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: didn't realize that this project was moving forward until I
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: saw that in the program, and I was very excited.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: And it was Sonu and the woman who is translating
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: the collected works, Caitlin Stevens, they gave a presentation together,
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: and it was just really, really exciting. And I do
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: want to say I'm pretty sure, unless I have misunderstood anyone,
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: It's sort of a separate endeavor from Philemon, so I
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: think I get this now. Philemon is publishing the unpublished works.
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: And that's a lot of, like, it might be letters or,
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: you know, some of the seminars that he gave that
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: were transcribed but never published and kind of ancillary documents
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: like that. Whereas the collected works, you know, there's sort
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: of additional... essays that he wrote that weren't in the
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: original collected works that will be in the critical edition. But,
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: you know, so it will be the critical edition, I believe.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: I believe it's going to be either 23 or 26 volumes.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: I can't remember now, but you'll hear you'll hear Sonu
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: and I talking about that in this. Anyway, it's it's
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: it's going to be re-edited, re-translated, arranged chronologically, and you'll hear,
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: so what I did was I immediately went up to
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: Sonu and I said, let's have a conversation, let me
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: interview you.
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: So I.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: Went to Sonu's, the apartment where he was staying, and
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: we had a great conversation. So you'll hear him describing this,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: and he does it a whole heck of a lot
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: better than I can, and talking about what it means
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: and what the process is, but But it's very fascinating
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: because the original group that was putting forward the collected works,
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: you know, it was really spearheaded by Mary Mellon, who,
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: you know, had the money because she was a Mellon.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: And she knew she needed to do something and she
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: started it. And I guess she was the original funder
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: of Bollingen, the behest there at Princeton that brought forward
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: the collected works originally. But then Mary Mellon died. And
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: so there was this kind of motley crew is the
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: impression I got as Sonu was describing the translators and
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: the editors that were involved. And it's Fordham and it's
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: RFC Hull and it's, gosh, I can't remember all their
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: names now. But, you know, all these people that I'm
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: always putting in my, you know, my citations list for
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: papers and books and everything.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: It was a team that didn't necessarily get along well.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: Jung wasn't particularly happy with how it was going. It
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: took decades to issue them. I think it took at
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: least 20 years or something to come out with the
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: original collected works. Although, again, I might have some of
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: the details wrong. But now they're going to do it properly.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: So it's very, very exciting. And, you know, I think
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: that you'll enjoy hearing Sonu describe that to me.
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: What does Sonu have to say about how long this
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: will take, when it's likely to come out, and is
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: it being retranslated?
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's being retranslated, re-edited, rearranged chronologically. The first book
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: will come out, I believe, next fall. So the fall
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: of 2026, which will be the writings that Jung, you know,
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: wrote when he was in medical school, basically, when he
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: was in school. And I believe they said it would,
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: they anticipated it would take about 20 years. So hopefully,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: I don't know, hopefully we'll all be around. to see
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: them all come out, maybe.
• 7:38
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• 7:43
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• 8:41
  Speaker 3: But just to give our listeners, why did Sonu say
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: this was important? And what might people expect to find
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: in this critical edition?
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: Well, one of the things that Sonu said to me,
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: and he said it in the presentation and also in
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: our interview, hear him say it, James Hillman said that
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: we've been reading R.F.C. Hull, not Jung. And R.F.C.
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: Hull is the translator.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: The translator. So Hull took liberties and kind of, you know,
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: translated it almost as if it were a novel. So
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: he added things and he took some things out. And
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: there was no one really meticulously checking the translations. And
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: Jung didn't have time to do that. You know, sometimes...
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Jung uses a word in different ways in the collected works.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: And I was like, well, I guess that's just, you know,
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: that's just Jung being Jung. But apparently some of it
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: might be translation. I don't want to call it errors.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: But maybe, yeah, maybe translation errors. So I think as
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: it comes out, we're going to be gaining a new, clearer,
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: deeper understanding of Jung's thinking and how those ideas developed.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: So it's super, super interesting.
• 9:59
  Speaker 5: And by the way.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: the podcast is planning on covering this in greater detail,
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: hopefully with the release of the first volume. We'd really
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: like to bring it to you and share with you
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: and maybe have the translator on the podcast to talk
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: about that process.
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: It sounds very exciting. A little scary, It was like
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: when the Red Books were coming out, it was like
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: so much hype about it, so intense. It's like, is
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  Speaker 3: this going to help? Is it going to unseat the
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: Jungian world?
• 10:27
  Speaker 5: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: What's the effect going to be?
• 10:29
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: So yeah, so enjoy my conversation with Sonu, and we'll
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: see you at the other end where we'll talk about
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: a dream. Well, I'm here today in Zurich, Switzerland for
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: the IAP Congress, and I I've had the good fortune
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: of getting some time with Sonu Shamdasani. Sonu is the
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: Vice Dean of Health of the Faculty of Arts and
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: Humanities and the Co-Director of the Health Humanities Center and
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: Professor of Young History at the University College of London.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: And he's going to talk with me today about the
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: new critical edition of the collected works. Did I say
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: that right? Okay, great. So first of all, what is
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: a critical edition and why? What does that mean and
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: why is this so exciting?
• 11:19
  Speaker 6: There are three types of addition. First are the works
• 11:24
  Speaker 6: that an author produces in their lifetime. Second, a uniform
• 11:28
  Speaker 6: addition which tries to gather those together and usually as
• 11:32
  Speaker 6: quickly as possible in one comprehensive collection. And third, a
• 11:38
  Speaker 6: critical addition. So that means critically establishing the text, textual variations,
• 11:46
  Speaker 6: and doing detailed annotations of contextual introductions so that the
• 11:52
  Speaker 6: works are presented in context. And the point of a
• 11:57
  Speaker 6: critical edition is to establish the main source text. And
• 12:02
  Speaker 6: it's quite neutral. It's not for or against an author.
• 12:06
  Speaker 6: It's really for anyone who's interested in an author's work.
• 12:09
  Speaker 6: So it's trying to establish the textual basis upon which
• 12:14
  Speaker 6: all other studies will then be based.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: And so what we have now with the collected works,
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: which many of us have on our bookshelves, is it
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: 20 black volumes? And so that would be the second
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: kind of edition that you mentioned, correct? The uniform edition?
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 6: On being presented with the first volume of the collected
• 12:41
  Speaker 6: works in the Bollingen series with a black cover. Jung
• 12:46
  Speaker 6: said it looked like a coffin. So he preferred the
• 12:51
  Speaker 6: green livery of the Routledge and Keegan Poole.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay. Okay. So, yeah, so the collected works that
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: most of us have, I think, were published by Bollingen
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: and Princeton University Press.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 2: And, you know, you gave a presentation here at the
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: Congress that I attended, and it was so interesting to
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: hear you talk about the team that was responsible for
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: bringing those forward. But one of the things that really
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: struck me was the role of RFC Hull. And you
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: had some really interesting things to say about that. So
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: Hull was the principal translator of many of the volumes.
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  Speaker 2: So just tell us a little bit about Hull and
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: his role and.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Why that matters.
• 13:34
  Speaker 6: Richard Francis Carrington Hull, to give him his full name,
• 13:38
  Speaker 6: RFC Hull, was in many ways a house translator for
• 13:44
  Speaker 6: Kagan Paul, which later became Ratlidge, Kagan Paul, and a
• 13:47
  Speaker 6: friend of Herbert Reid. He himself was a self-described, I mean,
• 13:51
  Speaker 6: he was a poet and self-described atheist and rationalist. He
• 13:56
  Speaker 6: once described himself as flagrantly impious. And he had a
• 14:02
  Speaker 6: fine eye for literary style. He was a fine prose stylist.
• 14:09
  Speaker 6: And he entered the project with little prior knowledge of Jung.
• 14:15
  Speaker 6: He said he'd read two of Jung's works, but was
• 14:17
  Speaker 6: not a student of Jung. He said his interests were
• 14:20
  Speaker 6: his own interests were more in literature. Translated Rilke and
• 14:24
  Speaker 6: also figures such as Martin Heidegger and Martin Buber, not
• 14:29
  Speaker 6: exactly people I would call friends of Jung. So he
• 14:33
  Speaker 6: entered the task without prior knowledge and also, one would say,
• 14:40
  Speaker 6: without support. Gerhard Adler, who was the only German-speaking editor,
• 14:47
  Speaker 6: was appointed there to check the translations specifically for that role. Basically,
• 14:52
  Speaker 6: he wasn't doing that. He eventually was just restricting himself
• 14:57
  Speaker 6: to dealing with questions when Hull would pose them to him,
• 15:00
  Speaker 6: which was not exactly often. And Hal had been struck
• 15:08
  Speaker 6: with polio as the project was beginning. So he was
• 15:12
  Speaker 6: moving around in a special wheelchair that was purchased for him.
• 15:16
  Speaker 6: He also had a massive stammer. So he talked extremely slowly.
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  Speaker 5: And I remember.
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  Speaker 6: So he's, in a way, someone difficult to disagree with.
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  Speaker 5: I remember.
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  Speaker 6: Frantz Jung once recalling to me, he was hearing on
• 15:32
  Speaker 6: numerous occasions when Hull would discuss his translations when he
• 15:36
  Speaker 6: came up to see Jung, he made quite heated arguments.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: Between Hull and Jung? Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: Wow.
• 15:43
  Speaker 6: But Jung would usually, you could say, retire to his estates,
• 15:46
  Speaker 6: but would tell people, he said, look, I think at
• 15:48
  Speaker 6: one point, for instance, in relation to Hull's translation of
• 15:52
  Speaker 6: Jung's Pecrum Synchronicities, there's times when Hull translates one concept
• 15:57
  Speaker 6: by two different words and said that's making for confusion
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  Speaker 6: and someone should check this. So clearly he doesn't have
• 16:05
  Speaker 6: the time and time to take on that role himself.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: Young, yeah.
• 16:11
  Speaker 6: But he thought that Gerhard Adler would be doing that
• 16:14
  Speaker 6: in the editorial team and basically they weren't. And Hal's attitude,
• 16:19
  Speaker 6: I mean he was in a way championing the works
• 16:22
  Speaker 6: in the manner in which he understood them. So for
• 16:26
  Speaker 6: instance you find in the collective works Jung's affirmation of religion,
• 16:29
  Speaker 6: which is no small thing in Jung's work, is toned down.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Wow. So you've sort of been able to find passages
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: in the collected works and kind of compared the originals
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: with Hall's translation, and you can kind of see where
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: there was some alteration in the emphasis or something.
• 16:47
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 16:47
  Speaker 6: Hall has no restriction or no hesitation from adding clauses
• 16:54
  Speaker 6: or deleting clauses.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 16:58
  Speaker 6: He actually saw his task as improving and making clearer.
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: Jung's work. And you read them.
• 17:05
  Speaker 6: They don't read like a translation. And sometimes a giveaway
• 17:10
  Speaker 6: sign for me is like when I read a sentence,
• 17:12
  Speaker 6: I think, what German sentence could that correspond to? And
• 17:20
  Speaker 6: then a sort of a warning sign comes up.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: Do you read German? Yeah.
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: Ah.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: So you can compare them side by side.
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 17:29
  Speaker 6: So I find in my own work, my own historical work,
• 17:33
  Speaker 6: I find that about 60% of the time I would
• 17:38
  Speaker 6: modify translations when I was citing Hume.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: Wow. And you had this great quote that you shared
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: at the presentation that I was at. I think it was,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: you said that Hillman said that we haven't, am I
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: getting this right? It was Hillman who said we haven't
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: been reading Jung, we've been reading Hull?
• 17:56
  Speaker 5: Yeah. Wow.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting that you say, too, that apparently
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: in the Synchronicity Essay that there was this observation that
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: Hull was using two different terms to refer to the
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: same concept. Because I always find, you know, when I'm
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: going through the collected works and trying to understand a concept,
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: that Jung, he uses different words, he defines it differently.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about the different ways, for example, that he
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: defines individuation. I once went through every reference and kind
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: of came up with a grid, and I think there
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: were something like eight different ways that he used the
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: word or something like that. And I've always thought, well,
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: I think he sort of did that on purpose because
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: he didn't want us to have to kind of a pat, fixed,
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: dry understanding of these terms. We wanted them to be
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: somewhat fluid so that we had to grapple with them.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: But it also sounds like some of this just might
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: be bad translation.
• 18:57
  Speaker 6: It's a combination. It's what I'd call a literary translation.
• 19:00
  Speaker 6: So it's like how someone would say translate a novel.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: You're saying that's the way Hull translated it.
• 19:07
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 19:07
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 19:07
  Speaker 6: So to take one key example, an American student and...
• 19:13
  Speaker 6: An alazand of Jung, Carol Sawyer Bauman, after reading Psychological Types,
• 19:19
  Speaker 6: was just shocked because it seems clear to her that Jung,
• 19:24
  Speaker 6: so Hal didn't understand that the self was a concept
• 19:31
  Speaker 6: and the key concept of the work.
• 19:33
  Speaker 5: Wow.
• 19:34
  Speaker 6: First, contrary to Jung's recommendation, it wasn't capitalized, which also
• 19:37
  Speaker 6: doesn't single it out as a concept.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:40
  Speaker 6: And sometimes you just translated it as one self. So
• 19:44
  Speaker 6: precisely going back to what you're talking about of individuation.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 19:48
  Speaker 6: And she wrote a whole page of instances of just mistakes. Now,
• 19:55
  Speaker 6: if you're translating a literary work, it doesn't really matter
• 19:57
  Speaker 6: because it's not a concept. You want a certain fluidity stylistically.
• 20:02
  Speaker 6: But if this is as it was intended, it's a
• 20:05
  Speaker 6: scholarly work, you have to indicate, okay, that's a case
• 20:08
  Speaker 6: where With all translation, you don't translate always with the
• 20:13
  Speaker 6: same word because it's not necessarily an equivalent. But in
• 20:19
  Speaker 6: that case, that's one word where you do want to
• 20:22
  Speaker 6: make it a solid and a constant.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: No, I've always heard that Freud is easier to read
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: than Jung. And I've always assumed that was because Freud
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: was more of a systematic thinker than Jung. But I
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: wonder too, like how much of this is the translation
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: and are we going to find that reading Jung in
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: this new translation is going to be a very different experience,
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: either easier or harder? I mean, Jung is hard to read.
• 20:48
  Speaker 6: He is hard to read. I mean, vis-a-vis Freud, the
• 20:52
  Speaker 6: difference I put between Freud and Jung in terms of
• 20:57
  Speaker 6: their writings is Freud is a brilliant rhetorician.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:04
  Speaker 6: And he constructs an argument. and sustains it as an organ.
• 21:12
  Speaker 6: Jung is, to my mind, not a bad writer. I mean,
• 21:15
  Speaker 6: the purple passages in Jung that far surpass anything in Freud,
• 21:20
  Speaker 6: to my mind. Jung's works follow the logic of an image.
• 21:26
  Speaker 6: So if you can, if you have an imagistic bent,
• 21:33
  Speaker 6: I don't find difficult to follow. It's not constructed as
• 21:37
  Speaker 6: a logical argument. And you see this, I find this
• 21:40
  Speaker 6: in terms of Jung's manuscripts. You find that he starts
• 21:46
  Speaker 6: and he gets underway and he writes. And things occur
• 21:49
  Speaker 6: to him and he continues with it. So one example
• 21:52
  Speaker 6: of this, there's a manuscript that's headed African voyage. So
• 21:58
  Speaker 6: you would assume that he would be talking about Africa.
• 22:01
  Speaker 6: But no, he gets to New Mexico and really gets
• 22:04
  Speaker 6: into it. So it's more about his time and reflections
• 22:08
  Speaker 6: on what, quote unquote, primitive psychology and his experiences in
• 22:12
  Speaker 6: New Mexico. So, I mean, that's Jung's works. He gets
• 22:17
  Speaker 6: into the flow and then writes. That's not to say
• 22:20
  Speaker 6: that at other times he can also write something that
• 22:23
  Speaker 6: is completely logically constructed if he wants to. So if
• 22:26
  Speaker 6: you read his piece, it depends on what audience he's
• 22:30
  Speaker 6: intending it to. if you read his early papers, they're
• 22:33
  Speaker 6: the model of clarity and what would have been considered
• 22:38
  Speaker 6: scientific exposition in psychiatry. And he can switch in that
• 22:41
  Speaker 6: mode whenever, if he wants to. He has that register available.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 22:48
  Speaker 6: Like in his piece he gives at the Harvard Centenary.
• 22:52
  Speaker 6: He can say, okay, I'm now with a medico-scientific audience.
• 22:56
  Speaker 6: I've got to present something that's more.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: Because you can really hear those shifts.
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 23:01
  Speaker 6: So he has a lot of stylistic differences, unlike Freud,
• 23:05
  Speaker 6: who is more monotone. We felt it was important that
• 23:09
  Speaker 6: with the critical edition, there was just one translator. Because
• 23:13
  Speaker 6: the one thing that Hull's translations manage is it's the
• 23:20
  Speaker 6: same tone.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 23:22
  Speaker 6: You're dealing with one stylist. So Caitlin Stevens, who'd already
• 23:28
  Speaker 6: done it, a really superb job with the translation of
• 23:31
  Speaker 6: Jung's seminars on spiritual exercises of Ignatius of Loyola for
• 23:36
  Speaker 6: the Philemon series edited by Martin Liebscher, was willing to
• 23:41
  Speaker 6: undertake this task.
• 23:43
  Speaker 5: And I mean, I've been reviewing.
• 23:45
  Speaker 6: Her translations of the first two volumes of the critical edition,
• 23:53
  Speaker 6: the first on It goes from 1896 to 1900 on
• 23:57
  Speaker 6: Jung's time as a medical student in Basel, with his
• 24:02
  Speaker 6: explorations also into philosophy and psychical research. And the volume
• 24:07
  Speaker 6: that I'm editing, which goes from 1900 to 1904, which
• 24:11
  Speaker 6: is further, his time as a psychiatrist, so that you
• 24:15
  Speaker 6: get his works on psychiatry, further unpublished seances that he's
• 24:20
  Speaker 6: engaged in, and his forensic work as well. And it
• 24:26
  Speaker 6: makes more sense when you read these, because also when
• 24:31
  Speaker 6: you were dealing with Hull's translations of those early papers,
• 24:36
  Speaker 6: he doesn't have the background in psychology and psychiatry. So
• 24:39
  Speaker 6: he doesn't know what the terms are or how they're
• 24:42
  Speaker 6: necessarily being translated. And the editors don't have a knowledge
• 24:50
  Speaker 6: in what is psychiatric terminology, uh, circa 1900. What are
• 24:56
  Speaker 6: they actually talking about? Well, how are these things being translated?
• 25:01
  Speaker 6: So it was not indifference to this with a critical edition.
• 25:05
  Speaker 6: It's not a scholarly translation. He was in a way
• 25:09
  Speaker 6: doing the best job according to his own skills as
• 25:13
  Speaker 6: a literary translator.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: These would have been being translated in like the 50s
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: and the 60s for the most part.
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 25:21
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 25:22
  Speaker 6: But there's no scholarly input into this. So in contrast
• 25:26
  Speaker 6: with the critical edition, the whole team meets every week.
• 25:32
  Speaker 6: And that can be a discussion on a single word.
• 25:37
  Speaker 6: And that often then requires research. And you have to
• 25:41
  Speaker 6: then traverse many fields. So the task of translating Jung
• 25:49
  Speaker 6: doesn't it's not just requiring linguistic skill it's a skill
• 25:53
  Speaker 6: in german that's just a prerequisite right but it also
• 25:56
  Speaker 6: then requires knowledge of the fields that he's traversing how
• 26:00
  Speaker 6: are these terms because he's not he's not inventing things
• 26:04
  Speaker 6: he's taking over these are established discourses that he's uh
• 26:09
  Speaker 6: traversing and you need to sort of look how would
• 26:11
  Speaker 6: these terms be used then yeah and what is the
• 26:15
  Speaker 6: best way to render them now yeah so that's what
• 26:18
  Speaker 6: we're trying to do in the critical edition where the
• 26:21
  Speaker 6: translation and editorial work as Caitlin was explaining in her
• 26:27
  Speaker 6: presentation at the Congress mutually inform each other.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: So one thing about Caitlin, it was so nice to
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: kind of meet her at the presentation and get a
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: sense of her and of course she's in analytic training.
• 26:42
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: So she's also going to have the subject matter knowledge
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: and the kind of, yeah, the deep the deep clinical
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: knowledge of an analyst. So that, I imagine, will make
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: a tremendous difference.
• 26:56
  Speaker 6: It will in the sense that she's found it very
• 26:58
  Speaker 6: interesting translating Jung's work on the associations experiments whilst studying
• 27:07
  Speaker 6: and doing these things at the same time. So in
• 27:10
  Speaker 6: that sense, that's one example where she's on the inside
• 27:14
  Speaker 6: of the text.
• 27:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: So on that, there's another thing about the critical edition,
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: I think, that I want to clarify. And I remember
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: you were on the podcast a number of years ago,
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: and I remember you mentioning this, and it really was
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: a real light bulb for me. So the collected works
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: now are arranged somewhat thematically. So I know when we
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: were in analytic training, we were responsible for having some
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: sense of the development of his ideas. And you had
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: to jump all around the collected work, say, to look
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: at the first time that he used the concept of
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: the self and how it changed between 1922 and 1957
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: or whatever. And it was very difficult. I mean, I
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: still have this massive piece of paper that sort of
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: mapped it all out. And part of that is because
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: the collected works are not arranged chronologically. But am I
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: right that The critical edition will be arranging things chronologically
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: so that you'll really be able to see very clearly
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: the development of his thought.
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: That's right.
• 28:18
  Speaker 6: Jung's own recommendation was that the collected works be organized chronologically.
• 28:22
  Speaker 6: That's what makes the most sense. They took a thematic
• 28:25
  Speaker 6: approach and there are some things a thematic approach does
• 28:30
  Speaker 6: in terms of collecting together thoughts on a particular subject
• 28:34
  Speaker 6: where you can say, for instance, if you read the
• 28:38
  Speaker 6: papers on practice of psychotherapy you can conveniently follow a
• 28:43
  Speaker 6: progression of thoughts on certain subjects but as i was
• 28:48
  Speaker 6: describing first uh jung's way of writing in terms of
• 28:54
  Speaker 6: how you'd write it's the many essays that about many different.
• 28:57
  Speaker 5: Things i know i'm so where'd you where'd you put
• 29:00
  Speaker 5: them i remember.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: At some at some point in my training there was
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: this really great quote about um about the shadow, and
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: I was like, where was that? And I was looking
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: in essays about the shadow, but no, no, it was
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: in the essay on psychic energy. And it's always kind
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: of like that. Yeah.
• 29:15
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 29:16
  Speaker 6: Let's take some examples. Jung gives a talk at Count
• 29:21
  Speaker 6: Keisling's School of Wisdom in Darmstadt, and his initial title
• 29:26
  Speaker 6: is called The Earth Conditioning of the Psyche. And he
• 29:30
  Speaker 6: later revises it and publishes it as two separate essays. Now,
• 29:37
  Speaker 6: if you go to the collected works, one is in
• 29:41
  Speaker 6: volume eight and one is in volume 10. Now, you've
• 29:48
  Speaker 6: literally split two parts of the same presentation and put
• 29:53
  Speaker 6: them in two different volumes.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 29:56
  Speaker 5: Obviously... And we gave it as one presentation.
• 29:59
  Speaker 6: It's a cohesive, it's like chapter one, chapter two. And presumably,
• 30:04
  Speaker 6: I could imagine, I haven't looked into it yet, but
• 30:08
  Speaker 6: I can imagine the review you published it, so let's
• 30:10
  Speaker 6: take a, we don't want something that big. Okay, or
• 30:13
  Speaker 6: something like that. Whatever easy splits it into two. You
• 30:15
  Speaker 6: want to keep those together. They're written as one presentation.
• 30:20
  Speaker 6: Or to take another example, The Secret of the Golden Flower.
• 30:25
  Speaker 6: It's published in alchemical studies in the collected works. And
• 30:30
  Speaker 6: people then say, okay, then Jung discovered 1939 Taoist alchemical text,
• 30:37
  Speaker 6: Secret of the Golden Flower, and he turns to alchemy. Well,
• 30:40
  Speaker 6: if you read Jung's preface to the second edition of that,
• 30:44
  Speaker 6: he says, it was only much later that he realized
• 30:47
  Speaker 6: it had anything to do with alchemy. His interest in
• 30:52
  Speaker 6: the text is to do with a mandala, and the
• 30:56
  Speaker 6: centric process. That's what he presents as mandalas. He doesn't
• 31:00
  Speaker 6: discuss alchemy. It should have gone in psychology and religion,
• 31:05
  Speaker 6: East and West, because it's actually part of his explorations
• 31:11
  Speaker 6: of Eastern thought. And then he spends several years exploring
• 31:15
  Speaker 6: Eastern thought before turning to alchemy. So it's a point where,
• 31:21
  Speaker 6: if you want to do something thematically, fair enough. But
• 31:24
  Speaker 6: it's in the wrong place. And people then get the wrong,
• 31:30
  Speaker 6: as you're going back, sense of the progression of his work.
• 31:33
  Speaker 6: That's what he calls this Eastern intermezzo gets missed. The
• 31:38
  Speaker 6: first parallel he's doing to his explorations in the Black
• 31:42
  Speaker 6: Books and the Red Book is an Eastern thought.
• 31:44
  Speaker 5: It's in yoga.
• 31:45
  Speaker 6: It's in collaborations with Wilhelm and succeeded by his collaborations
• 31:49
  Speaker 6: with Jakob Hauer.
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: And Mathieu Eliade.
• 31:55
  Speaker 6: Philharmonic Foundations in the course of editing for publications, Jung's
• 31:59
  Speaker 6: correspondences with Heinrich Zimmer and Jakob Hauer and Michele Yardas
• 32:06
  Speaker 6: who also brought a picture of that. So the bits
• 32:10
  Speaker 6: that just get lost. We take another example. Jung publishes
• 32:13
  Speaker 6: a book called Paracelsia. He's published a book on Paracelsus
• 32:19
  Speaker 6: and you have the two main contributions to that. published
• 32:25
  Speaker 6: in volume 15 and volume 13. So one is in
• 32:34
  Speaker 6: alchemical studies and one of it is in spirit and
• 32:37
  Speaker 6: art and literature. So you actually lose the fact that
• 32:41
  Speaker 6: he considered Paracelsus significant enough to write a book on
• 32:46
  Speaker 6: and to publish these together in one book.
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: So you lose the sense of his error.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: And I just want to clarify, too, I mean, you
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: can go through and rattle off these examples, but, you know,
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: you are the preeminent Jungian scholar. Someone like me, who's,
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: you know, sort of merely a practicing Jungian analyst, I
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: didn't know any of that. And I don't know where
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: I would even have access to that kind of information.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: So it really gets lost, this kind of thread that
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: you're talking about. to someone like me and someone who
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: doesn't have a scholarly bent or even access to some
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: of this.
• 33:24
  Speaker 6: And the other issue that's raised is Jung often revised
• 33:28
  Speaker 6: his essays and books and went through many editions. Anyway,
• 33:33
  Speaker 6: I think it's actually a very honest way of writing.
• 33:35
  Speaker 6: How many people have dozens of books in them? You're
• 33:37
  Speaker 6: actually improving the same book. It's a good sort of
• 33:40
  Speaker 6: 19th century kind of literary style. And the editors, by
• 33:45
  Speaker 6: and large, tended to choose I mean, there's some exceptions
• 33:48
  Speaker 6: later on, but they tended to choose the last version
• 33:51
  Speaker 6: as if that's the final form. But that's then representative
• 33:55
  Speaker 6: of his thought at a certain point in time. And
• 33:58
  Speaker 6: then you can't then tell what's written when.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: You don't have the kind of stratigraphy going back. And
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: of course, If you're reading Freud, you go through the
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: essays and it'll have a footnote like, this is what
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: he wrote in 1875. And then later he changed it
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: to this. Precisely. You can really see.
• 34:18
  Speaker 6: Through my historical studies, I mean, the first thing I
• 34:20
  Speaker 6: did was I just made a chronology for myself based
• 34:23
  Speaker 6: on the work in the bibliography, which is very well
• 34:27
  Speaker 6: done in terms of writing 19. But I constructed that
• 34:30
  Speaker 6: into a chronology so I knew exactly what Jung was
• 34:34
  Speaker 6: publishing when. And then it took a lot of time
• 34:37
  Speaker 6: just hunting down the first publications so that I could
• 34:41
  Speaker 6: actually see what is actually.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: Out of curiosity, where do you find those?
• 34:47
  Speaker 6: It's easier these days online, but when I did it,
• 34:49
  Speaker 6: that facility was not there. So you'd have to just
• 34:53
  Speaker 6: go to libraries and often when you're just traveling and
• 34:57
  Speaker 6: then making photocopies.
• 34:59
  Speaker 5: Wow.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: So here's one of the questions that I had watching
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: your presentation the other day. So I know that the
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: Philemon Foundation has been in process of publishing Jung's complete works.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: So in the collected works, we have some actually relatively
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: small percentage of his written work. Will this new critical
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: edition include the new stuff that Philemon has been publishing
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: or not? Will it pretty much be the same material
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: that's in the collected works, but just, you know, re-edited,
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: re-translated it and, you know, organized differently? What's going to
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: be the relationship between those two things?
• 35:46
  Speaker 6: So the Philharmonic Foundation, when it launched, had the aspiration
• 35:50
  Speaker 6: to say, okay, once the publication of the unpublished works
• 35:55
  Speaker 6: is completed, it would turn to a new edition of
• 35:59
  Speaker 6: the Collected Works and that was just quietly deleted off
• 36:03
  Speaker 6: the website when it just looked like it was going
• 36:05
  Speaker 6: to be impossible to raise the funds of it. It
• 36:08
  Speaker 6: was considered dead and buried. With relation to the Collected Works,
• 36:14
  Speaker 6: no items will be deselected. So you won't lose anything,
• 36:18
  Speaker 6: although sometimes the choices look a bit strange. So for instance,
• 36:23
  Speaker 6: you have some correspondences which would embed a place in
• 36:27
  Speaker 6: the correspondence volume, or the Tavistock lectures is there. But
• 36:33
  Speaker 6: nothing will be deselected, so nothing will be lost. It's
• 36:36
  Speaker 6: titled A Critical Edition of the Works of C.G. Jung,
• 36:39
  Speaker 6: so it'll focus on the works. So in the Philemon series,
• 36:45
  Speaker 6: they're just, I would say, what had been published and
• 36:48
  Speaker 6: that are in process, a couple of items that would
• 36:52
  Speaker 6: be taken over, which is one, Jung's essay on Naval,
• 36:57
  Speaker 6: which there was just a superb edition in the Philharmonic
• 37:00
  Speaker 6: Series by Craig Stevenson, and Jung's unpublished book on alchemy
• 37:04
  Speaker 6: and individuation.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: So that will be included in the critical edition.
• 37:08
  Speaker 6: Those two will be included because they are written, they're works,
• 37:11
  Speaker 6: they're manuscript works, but we won't be including, say, the
• 37:15
  Speaker 6: ETH seminars.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Got it, okay.
• 37:16
  Speaker 6: And also, they're already, to my mind, at a level
• 37:20
  Speaker 6: of cutting-edge scholarship and translation. You don't need to do
• 37:23
  Speaker 6: anything with them.
• 37:24
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 37:25
  Speaker 6: But we will be publishing further unpublished works. And more
• 37:30
  Speaker 6: works come to light that are published works. So, for instance,
• 37:34
  Speaker 6: my colleague Martin Niebscher is working on the volume, following mine,
• 37:39
  Speaker 6: volume three. He's been finding a lot of reviews being published.
• 37:44
  Speaker 6: They're in journals. It's out there, but no one ever
• 37:48
  Speaker 6: hunted them down.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: So, will those be included in the.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Critical edition.
• 37:55
  Speaker 5: That's right, yeah.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 37:57
  Speaker 6: So it's a combination of everything in the collected works
• 38:03
  Speaker 6: and further unpublished manuscripts and further published material that no
• 38:07
  Speaker 6: one had tracked down yet.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: What a tremendous undertaking. So it's underway. Tell us about
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: the scope of the project and the timetable and when
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: can we begin to expect these?
• 38:24
  Speaker 5: We're a year in.
• 38:24
  Speaker 6: It began on April 1st, 2024. Some people might have
• 38:28
  Speaker 6: thought it was an April Fool's joke, but it was.
• 38:34
  Speaker 6: In this case, I'm wondering if that was what some
• 38:36
  Speaker 6: of you might have thought, like pull the other leg.
• 38:42
  Speaker 6: And it was envisaged to take 20 years. So we're
• 38:46
  Speaker 6: a year in. There are currently four concurrent volumes underway.
• 38:51
  Speaker 6: And we envisage that the volumes would appear at a
• 38:54
  Speaker 6: rate of like one or two a year.
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: So a steady stream.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: And how many volumes are you anticipating altogether?
• 39:02
  Speaker 6: 26.
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: 26.
• 39:02
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: All right. So it will be a little fatter than
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: our current collected works.
• 39:11
  Speaker 6: The collected works, I mean, Jung's manuscripts span about, I'd say, 3,300,000 words.
• 39:16
  Speaker 6: And You're going to add approximately 35% to that in
• 39:24
  Speaker 6: terms of apparatus and then also another couple hundred thousand
• 39:27
  Speaker 6: words in terms of unpublished.
• 39:30
  Speaker 5: Materials.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Well, and there will be footnotes.
• 39:33
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 39:34
  Speaker 6: So you're going to get closer to at least over
• 39:38
  Speaker 6: four and a half million words.
• 39:39
  Speaker 5: Wow. That's a lot of words.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 39:42
  Speaker 5: Uh-huh.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: And I'm assuming they will be published both in a
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: paperback or hardback edition as well as an e-book?
• 39:52
  Speaker 6: Yes, they'll be different formats, but initially in hardback. And
• 39:56
  Speaker 6: each volume will cover a span of about, should we
• 40:00
  Speaker 6: say roughly two or three years or so, in terms
• 40:03
  Speaker 6: of what it covers. So they'll also be accompanied in
• 40:06
  Speaker 6: the apparatus, and each volume will have a chronology of
• 40:09
  Speaker 6: Jung's activities.
• 40:11
  Speaker 5: At that time, so it'll.
• 40:13
  Speaker 6: Also affect, each volume will be, you could say, a
• 40:16
  Speaker 6: section of Jung's intellectual biography and context at that time.
• 40:21
  Speaker 6: What's happening in his life, where is he traveling, what's
• 40:25
  Speaker 6: he doing, what is he concerned with, what is he doing.
• 40:31
  Speaker 5: Over that period?
• 40:33
  Speaker 6: Which you lose the sense in the collected works because
• 40:36
  Speaker 6: chronology is lost, and for me as a historian, chronology
• 40:40
  Speaker 6: is the backbone of history if you don't have a
• 40:42
  Speaker 6: chronology you're totally lost.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: You know what what's coming to mind is um for
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: a couple summers when i was a young and i
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: did um archaeological excavations and of course like the stratigraphy
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: really matters right because if it's an undisturbed stratigraphy anything
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: below here is older than anything up there but if
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: it's if it if it was disturbed if someone came
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: along and dug a pit and threw garbage in it
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: there could be you know, stuff from many different time periods.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: And that's kind of like what the collective works feels
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: like now is just, you know, we were responsible in
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: training for having some sense of what was he doing
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: and what was he writing. But I have to tell you,
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: it was really hard to get a sense. And I
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: think this is just going to make it so much
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: clearer and it's going to be so much easier to
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: sort of study these developments and to understand what was
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: going on with him instead of trying to triangulate between
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: you know biographies and mdr and and the collected work
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: so this is a real service.
• 41:43
  Speaker 6: And also in terms of the contextual footnotes to give
• 41:46
  Speaker 6: an example one one thing one level of notes we're
• 41:50
  Speaker 6: doing is uh we're checking every every and reading every
• 41:55
  Speaker 6: author that jung himself is reading wow and giving details
• 41:59
  Speaker 6: of who they are so jung is using a lot
• 42:02
  Speaker 6: of footnotes i mean Mysterium Coniuntionis, I think, has about 2,300 footnotes.
• 42:07
  Speaker 6: They're meant to be read. They're not just window dressing.
• 42:16
  Speaker 6: And a contemporary reader does not have access for these texts.
• 42:20
  Speaker 6: So in a way, we're trying to do that for
• 42:21
  Speaker 6: the reader. It's like, well, who are these people to
• 42:24
  Speaker 6: give more information? So if the reader wants to go
• 42:28
  Speaker 6: further into that, they can. But if they don't, they're
• 42:32
  Speaker 6: given the reference, the things which a contemporary figure in
• 42:36
  Speaker 6: Jung's audience, say with the psychiatric writings, will know what
• 42:40
  Speaker 6: he's talking about because they were all figures of the
• 42:43
  Speaker 6: same debate. They'll know the reference. But today, a lot
• 42:48
  Speaker 6: of those figures are forgotten with the exception of Freud.
• 42:52
  Speaker 6: So people assume that it's all coming from Freud, which
• 42:56
  Speaker 6: is just a complete myth.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Well, this is very exciting. And I'm sure people will
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: want to know how they can keep abreast of development.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: So what's the best way for listeners to find out
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: what you guys are doing and what's coming up?
• 43:13
  Speaker 6: Well, it's to go to the Princeton University Press website
• 43:15
  Speaker 6: because you can subscribe for updates. And we've also produced
• 43:22
  Speaker 6: short videos with all the team introducing themselves and the
• 43:26
  Speaker 6: projects that they're working on.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: So we can list that, we can include that link,
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: but just to say if people sign up for updates,
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: what can they expect?
• 43:36
  Speaker 6: Details of when new publications are coming out, events around publications,
• 43:44
  Speaker 6: and we aim to also release short pieces describing, you
• 43:51
  Speaker 6: could say, findings from the archives. So for instance, I'm
• 43:57
  Speaker 6: working on together with Martin Liebscher, we've been going through
• 44:01
  Speaker 6: Jung's case files at the Birkholzsee.
• 44:03
  Speaker 5: Oh my gosh.
• 44:04
  Speaker 6: Which are now just coming on access. There's a 120-year
• 44:08
  Speaker 6: confidentiality rule and it's just been perfect for us. So
• 44:12
  Speaker 6: each year we've been going back for the new releases.
• 44:15
  Speaker 6: It's not like drinking wine where you go for the
• 44:19
  Speaker 6: wine that is just made of the recent harvest. You say, okay,
• 44:22
  Speaker 6: the next release which we'll be going back there for
• 44:25
  Speaker 6: is 1905. We'll be going for that in the new
• 44:28
  Speaker 6: years to see what the the new text, new case files.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: So this is like so fascinating. So you go to
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: the Burke-Holsley, is that where they.
• 44:37
  Speaker 5: Well, they're in the State Archives.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: Okay, the State Archives.
• 44:39
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: So you go to the archives and it's like, you know,
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: 120-year-old pieces of paper or whatever it is. And then
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: you get to sit there and try to sift through
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: what he's saying. And that must be fascinating.
• 44:53
  Speaker 6: You try not to freeze because they keep it quite chill.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, I bet.
• 44:57
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 44:59
  Speaker 6: For preservation reasons, yes. And there's such great characters that
• 45:03
  Speaker 6: you read. And in this case, it's a sort of
• 45:06
  Speaker 6: a social history of a lot of the Zurich low
• 45:11
  Speaker 6: life at the turn of the century of the criminal cases.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: Or not so, yeah.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: Or not so, with some of the private patients.
• 45:19
  Speaker 6: And you have the stories and you see Jung is fascinated.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:23
  Speaker 6: He's fascinated by it. He's taking detailed case histories. He's
• 45:28
  Speaker 6: engaging them in conversation. He's trying to find out what
• 45:33
  Speaker 6: makes these people tick. To me, it's great to see
• 45:39
  Speaker 6: this is the raw material he's dealing with.
• 45:42
  Speaker 5: We're seeing these people.
• 45:43
  Speaker 6: We're having physical descriptions of them. We can see them.
• 45:47
  Speaker 6: So far, I've got a couple of photos of some
• 45:51
  Speaker 6: of these patients.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: And you make some of this available to newsletter subscribers.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: Is this the kind of thing that we'll see publication
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: in some form? Yes.
• 46:03
  Speaker 6: What we've managed to do is to, in my volume,
• 46:09
  Speaker 6: identify a lot of the cases that Jung is working on.
• 46:13
  Speaker 6: And he's writing up a publication through the case files
• 46:17
  Speaker 6: and forensic reports. So you have a lot more detail,
• 46:21
  Speaker 6: physical descriptions. and the stories of what happened. With volume three,
• 46:29
  Speaker 6: with the associations experiment, the paper that really makes Jung's
• 46:33
  Speaker 6: reputation in experimental work, which is co-written with his co-worker,
• 46:39
  Speaker 6: Franz Ricklin. The first paper is associations of healthy subjects.
• 46:45
  Speaker 6: And I call it Martin Liebscher has identified all the subjects.
• 46:49
  Speaker 6: You then get the social context in which these, texts
• 46:54
  Speaker 6: are embedded in yeah you see who the characters are
• 46:58
  Speaker 6: so that it gives it it's like having an x-ray
• 47:01
  Speaker 6: it brings it it brings it nearer yeah yes you
• 47:04
  Speaker 6: can read the text right off and get a lot
• 47:06
  Speaker 6: out of it but it enriches your understanding by presenting
• 47:09
  Speaker 6: the more of the background no.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: That's fine so some of that will be in the
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: competition yeah and and when can we expect maybe we
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: said this already but it's worth saying again when can
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: we expect the first the first uh The first book?
• 47:24
  Speaker 6: The first volume, Jung is a medical student in Basel,
• 47:30
  Speaker 6: is edited by Gaia Domenici, is projected to come out
• 47:35
  Speaker 6: towards the end of next year.
• 47:38
  Speaker 5: Wow. It's not that long.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: Very, very exciting. And I'm sure that we'll be doing
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: our part to help people find out about it. Well,
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: thank you so much.
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: And so let's take a transition into a dream. And
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: right before we do that, just to ring that bell
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: one more time to let everybody know that we have
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: a wonderful online learning program called Dream School, and we
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: would love to see you there. We'll meet with you
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: privately and in a group. We have wonderful modules to
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: teach you how to interpret dreams, and we hope to
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: see you there. Today's dreamer is a 36-year-old female. She
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: works as part of a cabin crew and she titles
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: her dream, My Father's Flat or Rooms Merging into a Garden.
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: And this is her dream. I visit my father in
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: his flat. It is the same dirty and messy flat
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: my father always has. This time, There is a difference.
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: It seems like there are other people in the flat.
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: Then I start to see them. My father rented, did
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: he rent or are these people just there, his rooms
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: to other people and the rooms are tiny. Just one
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: mattress on the floor fits. I see people lying down
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: on their beds next to each other. In one room,
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: there is an Eastern European couple with two kids. Other
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: bachelor men sleep together. They seem like blue-collar workers. As
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: my attention focuses on this weird situation... The backside, where
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: the tiny bedrooms, maybe they are not even bedrooms, just
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: partitions made by plaster walls, are located, opens up to
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: a garden. As my attention is on the bedrooms, the
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: bedrooms and the garden start to merge. At one point,
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: it becomes an apartment. The entrance is similar to old
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: Istanbul architecture. A classic, spacious entrance opens to a vast,
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: spacious garden. Instead of stairs, it leads to flats. On
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: the left edge of the garden, there is a two-story house, old-fashioned,
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: built before the 1970s, when migration from the country to
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: Istanbul accelerated. It is like a ramshackle house. It is
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: surprising that people still live in it. There is another
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: tenant on the first floor, and my father has a
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: second floor. It crosses my mind that this house was
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: once a single dwelling, and then they made it two
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: separate floors later. The garden is wild, dark, and fascinating.
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: The house has a weird charm despite its state. When
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: seen from the other end of the garden, At one point,
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: my sister comes into the living room with a bunch
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: of golden earrings in her ears, not her style at all,
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: and red roses lined in the middle with ornaments like
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: horns on the side of her head. I tell her
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: she looks like a pharaoh. There is a contrast between
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: the well-lit living room and the bedrooms in the back,
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: which are dark and mysterious. I visit my father in
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: his flat. As for context, she mentions, I'm about to
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: take off for my first solo flight. I started to
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: live by myself for the first time five months ago.
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: My father's debt on my name finally cleared after 20 years,
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: and my sister sent me money for my pilot training.
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: I wasn't sure if she was going to keep her promise,
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: even though I knew she wanted to contribute. I feel
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: resolved in every area of my life. The main feelings
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: in the dream were, it was enthralling, and this feels
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: like a very significant dream. As for associations, she adds,
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: my father and mother migrated to Istanbul in the end
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: of the 1980s from the south. Me and my sister
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: grew up in a neighborhood that all of my friends
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: who lived there had migrated from Bulgaria. My mother has
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: Greek ancestry. She had migrated there with a population exchange.
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: My father's flat is always messy. My sister is very
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: particular with her clothes and only wears, quote-unquote, simple cuts
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: and actually never wears accessories. I, on the other hand,
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: like to wear accessories a lot.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: So it's a little confusing. I think it's probably clear
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: that the dreamers, English is not the dreamers' first language.
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: And we understand that, of course, and we welcome submissions
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: from people whose English might not be Native. But, you know,
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: there's there's it's a little confusing. Some of that might
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: be the dream because dreams can be confusing and some
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: of it might be language.
• 53:24
  Speaker 5: But that's OK.
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: We can roll with it. But just just because it's
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: a little confusing, I just want to see if I
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: can sort of sum it up and you guys tell
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: me if I've got it. So there's this this very
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: messy flat that's kind of overcrowded. There's all these people
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: living in it. It's a little bit chaotic. But then
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: she kind of goes out into this garden and And
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: from there, everything looks a little different. Am I getting this?
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: It's kind of dark and mysterious, and the house has
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: a certain charm. And then there's this image of her sister.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: So that's the sort of sweep I got. Is that
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: what you guys got as well?
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I was doing the same thing you're doing, Lisa.
• 54:05
  Speaker 4: I was sort of like, okay, let me see if
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: I can get the story. So we start out with,
• 54:11
  Speaker 4: I visit my father in his flat. And this is
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: all this tiny spaces. It's crowded with people lying on
• 54:19
  Speaker 4: the floor. And then something opens up. I love that phrase,
• 54:26
  Speaker 4: opens up to the garden. And then the bedrooms and
• 54:31
  Speaker 4: gardens start to merge and it becomes a beautiful, spacious garden.
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: And then there's another house. Now there, on the left
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: side of the garden, there's a two-story house, like a
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: ramshackle house. Surprising that people still live there. So it
• 54:52
  Speaker 4: feels like a going back to some other time. A
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: tenant on the first floor. The father has the second floor.
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: And it's interesting that now there's a split. that between
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: the two floors where what was once a single dwelling
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: is now basically a duplex. And then at the end,
• 55:17
  Speaker 4: we go back to the garden. And what a wonderful image,
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: and no wonder the dreamer awoke with the feeling that
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: this was a significant dream. The garden is wild, dark,
• 55:30
  Speaker 4: and fascinating. And the house has a weird charm. And
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: then at the end, we have the sister. But I
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: was tracking the various locations, the settings in which the
• 55:47
  Speaker 4: action takes place, because the settings are a portrayal of
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: the psychic situation.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: One thing I was just confused about, though, is there
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: are these two houses and the father seems to live
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: in both?
• 56:00
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure what to do with that.
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: This is the place where we want to say, well,
• 56:05
  Speaker 4: but wait a minute, that doesn't make sense. And that's
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: why we have to really work hard to work with dreams,
• 56:15
  Speaker 4: because those things don't make sense. But at least at
• 56:18
  Speaker 4: the end, the father has been better contained. in the
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: ramshackle house off to the left of the garden. He's
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: on the second floor, and there are tenants on the
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: first floor. But I'm paying most of the attention mostly
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: to the garden and the contrast between the masculine father
• 56:43
  Speaker 4: and sort of the people lying on beds next to
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: each other that are like blue-collar workers, sort of what
• 56:52
  Speaker 4: I would call the masculine.
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: Components.
• 56:56
  Speaker 4: And then this amazing image of the sister with her
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: golden earrings, red roses, and ornaments like horns on the
• 57:05
  Speaker 4: side of her head. I tell her she looks like
• 57:09
  Speaker 4: a pharaoh, or I was thinking maybe an Egyptian god
• 57:14
  Speaker 4: or goddess with the horns on the sides of her head. Joseph,
• 57:21
  Speaker 4: you're the one that can probably elaborate more on Hathor
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: and all of that, if that seems relevant.
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: It may be, but what I was thinking is in
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: the Greek tradition, sometimes you'll find statues and some of
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: the sages will be given horns on their heads, and
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: that was a sign of wisdom.
• 57:45
  Speaker 5: Ah, okay.
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: Whatever the work is here, I tend to think that
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: wherever the dream starts, that's a clue as to what
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: the complex is that's being worked on. And because it
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: starts in the father's flat, I'm imagining that something is
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: being done with the father complex or the relationship to
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: the father or the feeling around the father principle. And
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: we find the father in a very, or the father
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: complex in a very diminished state. Um, it's messy. It
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: sounds like a boarding house. People slipping, sleeping all over
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: the place. Um, It seems that that's what she expects.
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: That's kind of the state she finds him in. He
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: tends to live in those conditions from what I notice
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: in the context. And then this uncanny thing happens is
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: that she passes through the father complex. There's a secret
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: on the other side that opens into a garden. And
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: the garden holds a potential that isn't obvious when she
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: first approaches the father complex. which seems primarily provisional and diminished.
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: So it seems in general something is happening around the
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: father principle inside of her. It does seem to be positive.
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: Sometimes von Franz would take just the first sensation, or
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: so of a dream and pair it with the last sentence,
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: particularly if it's a longer, somewhat confusing dream, just to
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: get an arc. So we're coming into the messy father complex,
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: and then we have this image of the sister who's
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: a shadow figure, I think, coming forward, adorned remarkably with gold,
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: looking like a pharaoh. So something happens over the course
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: of the dream that seems ultimately enhancing to the feminine principle,
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: or at least perhaps the shadow.
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think it's interesting, like the... You know,
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: you're talking about the father complex, Joseph, and I liked
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: what you did with that, especially that you sort of said,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: you know, it looks really provisional, but then when you
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: push past it, there's something really wonderful there. And, you know,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about the actual biography, because if I understood
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: the context, it sounds like her father may have maybe
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: taken a debt out against maybe some assets of hers.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: And that that's been there for 20 years. And, of course,
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: it sounds like that might be just a reality-based thing,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: but there can also be a way that that can
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: be true for us psychologically, that our parents, our father,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: our mother kind of trades on us or borrows from
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: us psychologically. I'm thinking of the fairy tale, you know, Rumpelstiltskin.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: You know, the father's, like, trading on his daughter's talents. Like, hey,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: my daughter has been drawn to gold, and then she
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: has to pay off that debt almost. And so somehow,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: you know, there's been something that's actually happened in the
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: outer world that I imagine is also psychologically true, that
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: she has been under the weight of her father's debts.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: It sounds like her father perhaps may maybe kind of
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: have a provision to a certain degree, be living a
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: provisional life himself. She's only just started living on her own.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: She's just getting her pilot's license. She's just going off
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: on her first solo flight. What the story I make
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: up as I listen to all this is that she
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: has had to move through the father complex in her
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: own psyche of maybe living a kind of provisional life
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: to get to really claim something for herself. And that's
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: when the shadow comes in in this very positive form
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: And her sister actually apparently did help her pay to
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: get her pilot's license or whatever to do the training.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: But also the sister may carry forward that really kind
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: of like queenly imagery of the pharaoh and the wisdom
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: that you mentioned also, Joseph.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 4: I'm thinking very much along the same lines that what
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 4: has happened in her outer world of having the father's
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 4: debt lifted off her, resolved, and then the help from
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 4: her sister are mirrored in the dream.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 4: And the symbolism of two things. One is she's about
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 4: to take off on her first solo flight, which is
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 4: just such a great image of individuation, independence, you know,
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 4: I'm good to go. I'm going to take my solo flight.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 4: I've trained for it. A debt has been lifted. I've
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 4: been helped, and I'm good to go. And the other
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 4: image that I pay a lot of attention to is,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 4: of course, the image of this garden. And it's really
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 4: a wonderful garden. It opens up to a garden. It
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 4: sounds quite magical. especially that it's wild, dark, and fascinating.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 4: So it sort of conjures up a bit of an
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: image like the forest, the realm of the unconscious. People
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 4: in fairy tales are forever getting lost in the forest
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 4: where things are wild and dark and fascinating. And the
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 4: second house has its weird charm. And also a garden
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 4: is where sort of consciousness and the unconscious writ large meet.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 4: Because it takes consciousness to make a garden, to make
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 4: a plan, which plants go where. We have all kinds
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 4: of gardens and all kinds of styles of gardens, which
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 4: is ego imposing its ideas on nature. And then there
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 4: is nature. The things grow. And we actually don't grow them.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 4: They grow themselves. So I love that this garden is
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 4: here of some kind of a meeting, a reconciliation between
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 4: ego and psyche and an image of wholeness.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: You said before, you made that point about the second house,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: that there's something the father's kind of contained because he's
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: on the second floor. Like, I wonder if that's You know,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: if that's sort of part of the answer, it's like, yeah,
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: there's still the somewhat messy father complex, but now it's
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: kind of contained or something, something like that.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 4: We got dad, we got him up to the second floor.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 4: So at least he's in a circumscribed space.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: Because there's so much imagery and information in it, I
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: found myself just picking out just a few words. My
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: attention lingers. The back opens up, transforms, vast garden. The
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 3: house must once have been whole. So to me, as
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 3: I'm moving along and I'm just asking myself, how is
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: the dream ego changing over the course of it? And
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: it seems that things lead to this this realization that
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: what was put into parts at least once was whole.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: And when that memory of wholeness comes, then the new
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: attitude emerges, which is the garden is wild, dark, and fascinating,
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 3: and the house is charming. That's a very new stance
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: as she's regarding the father complex, who lives in the house,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: now it's in a garden. And I think once she
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: achieves this more curious attitude that puts things into a
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 3: more charming perspective instead of such a tattered, somewhat disappointing place,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: then the sister emerges, or the shadow emerges, She looks very,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: very different. She has gold and color and I'm not
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: sure what else the costumes are and horns, but something
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 3: very different happens as the dream ego finds this new stance.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 3: And then the last consideration of the stark contrast between
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 3: the bright living room in the front and the dim,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: mysterious rooms in the back. That sounds like a simple attitude,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: but depending on how entrenched we are about something, it
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: can take a lot of work to go from kind
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: of tattered and messy and the same old, same old,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: to strangely fascinating and charming. That's a big shift inside,
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: and that that allows this fantastical emergence of the feminine, actually.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: from within that.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great because it makes me think of like
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: when people first come into treatment and they're like, you know,
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know, let's say they're 26 years old and
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: they're like, oh, my mom is such a bastard and
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: I hate my mom. And then they like, they live
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: a little bit more and you have this kind of
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: process with them. And a few years later, like, you know,
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: my mom is so frustrating because she just criticizes me
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: all the time. But she's also, you know, so creative
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: and so this, and I really do love her. And I,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: you know, it's that thing where you sort of can
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: see what's difficult And also see the charm and hold both.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: Something like that?
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 3: Exactly. Expansion of capacity and even the opening into the
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 3: vast garden suggests there's so much more room. I think
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 3: that's what you were saying.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 4: I agree with all of this. And we see the
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 4: new attitude. You know, Jung talks a lot about a
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 4: new attitude. And we colloquially talk about, you know, so-and-so
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 4: needs an attitude adjustment. But a new attitude is sort
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 4: of like when the light goes on and we have
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 4: that aha thing.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: Like, oh, I get it.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 4: I see it all together differently now. And I'm thinking
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 4: that the end of this dream with the sister, the shadow,
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 4: appearing in such a wonderfully magical, regal way is, a
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 4: real indication of a vastly different psychological place from where
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 4: our dream ego begins in the father's messy, dirty flat
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 4: that is being used like, you know, basically a crash pad.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 4: So we've gone from that to an image of something
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 4: surprising and wonderful. And that's a new attitude.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: It's very lovely, and we certainly wish this dreamer the best.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 4: Oh, yes.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. To submit a dream, suggest an episode topic,
• 1:09:44
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• 1:09:49
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• 1:09:52
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