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NVC in Real Life with Hans van Veen · The Stoic Handbook with Jon Brooks

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for taking the conversation with me.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Really appreciate you being here.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you've been a friend for many years now.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's been really cool to see your journey from like go really deep into yoga.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then you started reading nonviolent communication.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is the timeline as I as I remember it.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think a lot of people read a book like that and they're like, oh, I got some tips out of it, and then they put it down.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Not much happens.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: But since you've started reading that book quite a few years ago now, you really went deep, like to the level of mastery and qualifications and like sparring practice, almost like it's like a martial art view, and you and I'm curious to to learn more about the the ways that you practice communication.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: But let's zoom out a minute and I I'm curious, if you wouldn't mind, could you break down what non-violent communication, also known as NBC, is at its core?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe people that I haven't come across it before.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I also like that we uh get to do this conversation.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you were actually the one, as you probably remember, that said to me, hey, maybe you should read this book.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think I was defensive with you a few times, like reacting defensively, and you maybe you picked up on that, of course.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh and I and I and I I listened to you.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: I thought, okay, probably John is onto something, and uh I'm I listened to the book, I listened to the audio book, and it was so cool.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: I listened to it again after I finished it.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and uh and then I thought maybe there are some courses I could take, so that's how I got the ball rolling.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, what is it?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: So what I usually say to people is that on the surface, NVC is a range of techniques or like things to be aware of in a conversation, or kind of a set of consciousnesses, if you will.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: But at depth it is a kind of worldview, it's a kind of uh an eye connected to a non-duality, like the deep interconnectedness of uh of all human beings and how our needs interrelate.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, at depth it is this worldview, and at the surface level, there are techniques and kind of things to be aware of in the conversation.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Is it already an answer or yeah, is it meaning something?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, this is perfect.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is perfect.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm curious.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: You read a lot of books, right?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: You're a a lifelong student, you're always, as far as I know, reading, studying.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: It when I say studying, I mean that includes meditation, but you're always kind of you've got your eye on something new and interesting month after month, right?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so you've read a bunch of books, articles, podcasts, you're a lifelong learner, but yet something stood out with the NPC work, like amongst the other things you were studying at the time.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: What drew what kind of interested you in the first place and hooked you?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: This follow-up to that is what has kept you interested?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because it it hasn't been this fad that you've really stuck to it for for a while now.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I was actually when I was just thinking about our podcast, and I and I was thinking this exact question you asked me, like, what hooked me?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually don't remember.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember what it was specifically, but it was something I know what kind of kept me going, and I know what what kept kept me engaged.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: And one thing is, for instance, I have this clear memory of this realization because I used to take things very personally, and I'm not saying I'm never doing it anymore, but I used to do it even more.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: And just some moments where that kind of, you know, when that perspective just switches, and I'm I I was I'm remembering specifically a girlfriend at the time that was going through something and I was just suffering while I was listening to her because I was kind of taking it on myself.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: But then I had this switch of, oh, this is her experience, this is her reality.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that is that takes such a load off my shoulders as somebody who can take things very personally, who can be, as you know, reactive and triggered.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's a huge shift.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: But also things like a big one for me is how to deal with guilt.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: I have a tendency to feel guilty very easily.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I learned with NVC is something called the guilt process or the art of being torn, which kind of makes you have a much more understanding of what's going on in me when I'm feeling guilty, when there's this one voice in me that says I did something wrong, and there's another voice in me that wants to defend itself from this inner judgment.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, one thing about NVC is that it goes, you know, many of us have these judgmental minds.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: I certainly have a very judgmental mind, and it can go deeper than that.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: It can show you uh what is behind the judgment, and also inside myself, if I'm judging myself, I can have a lot more inner peace because I'm understanding what the voices are actually trying to say.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, in short, much more inner peace.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's beautiful the way you put that.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of people, when they read NVC stuff, even if they don't read the whole book, but just learn some of the techniques.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: I would imagine that people are in some kind of high stakes, high conflict kind of situation, whether that be in business or family relations, and they're like, give me the tips so I can kind of deal with this difficulty in a more constructive way.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: What I'm hearing from you though is something else.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Not that that isn't still applicable, but that you're altering the way that you're speaking to yourself.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's like a relationship to self.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that has been very important, a profound fear.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was wondering if you could talk a bit about that.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's an important topic in general, I would say, about NVC, because there are sort of two big parts of NVC.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so Marshall Rosenberg, as you know, is the person who brought NVC into the world.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: And his view was a very big vision.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: He wanted to understand what creates violence, where does it come from?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And he and he saw that, yeah, it's a kind of thinking.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: He would call that a life-alienated way of thinking or of speaking, where we judge each other and you know, put labels on each other.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: And his vision was actually societal change, and a lot of NVC is aimed at societal change.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: Another part is it is a tool or a way of being with yourself that is very empathic, that leads to a lot of understanding, a lot of clarity, and a lot of inner peace.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: So there's this inner work part of it.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: And for me personally, and I also, so I'm also a candidate for being certified, and I tell my assessor also, I'm not so comfortable with the changing the world idea.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think that those are they can be dangerous ideas to change the world.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I a bit in vain of Jordan Peterson, I really like to just clean up my clean up my own mess first and then just focus on myself.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: Does that answer your question?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Or did I mean Yeah, yeah.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's that's really that's really important.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure at this point uh listeners might be thinking, okay, what are some of the principles and tactics and techniques?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because you said that that's the surface of it, and there's deeper principles, and I want to get into some of those deeper principles as the conversation goes on.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe we can take like a top-down approach and be like, well, what are some of the specific structures of NVC that distinguishes it from maybe just like talk more compassionately?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like what are some of the frameworks?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I guess the the the easy one would be the four-step model.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you know that, or the the four components, which is to break down situations in in four components, which is observations, feelings, needs, needs, and requests.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Requests are not always necessary.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: But for instance, if there's a trigger, or if there's you know some kind of sensitive situation, or there's a conflict, things can get quite fuzzy and and unclear because we get a little bit overwhelmed by emotions and we can get into a trigger state.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so then a very simple thing to do is ask yourself, what is the actual observation?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if if you and I had a conflict, whatever, I would say, okay, what actually happened?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I might say something like, Well, I said something to John and then and then John acted like a complete asshole.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, wait a second, that's not that's not an observation, that's actually a story I'm telling myself.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Or conversely, I just acted like a complete idiot towards John.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: There I can see my confusion.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I can ask myself the question, okay, what if there was a camera pointed at our at our interaction, what would the camera see?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then all of a sudden I get much more clarity, and I can also see, oh, I was telling myself a story about what happened, but actually this and this and this happened.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I if I am in this state of trigger and confusion, I want to get to self-connection, I want to get to inner peace again.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: And the way to do that is first of all to get clear on the observation, and then also what was I feeling, what was I needing?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And in NVC, you the perspective is more or less that my feelings are pointing me to my needs.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I was anxious, I'm still some bit nervous right now for the podcast, because I want to, I really want to be authentic and relaxed.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I want people to listen to get something from it, and I also want to be seen for who I am and not some kind of image.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to be honest, but I also want to, anyway, you get the idea, there's all these needs that my feelings are pointing to.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm connected to my needs, I can usually, especially when the connection sort of clicks, I have this moment of like, oh yeah, honesty.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can sort of relax because I recognize myself.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: The needs are sort of motivated, motivating, motivating forces from which I come.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I can connect to that level, I find myself again.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: So this is kind of the yeah, and then the fourth step is request, you know?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: I could, it could be something like, hey, John, if I notice myself getting ahead of myself, do you mind taking a little break with me in the podcast so I can just gather my thoughts?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that would be the the fourth step.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: So when applying these steps, do you apply them sequentially?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like is it always like step one, step two, step three, step four?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Are they like, do you flick between the two?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe you kind of state the need and then go to an observation, or like how does it how do you apply this?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would normally start with you know, asking somebody if I'm giving empathy, you know, listening to somebody, what was the observation?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: But normally also, you know, you want to have one entrance, but you typically go from left to right.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And in an in a workshop, for instance, we typically place four papers on the floor.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: And if somebody wants to disentangle a situation, you actually move them on the floor so they have some spatial relation to, oh, I'm actually now describing a feeling, or oh, this is actually an observation.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's a thought, you know, oh, this is a need that I'm having.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, but yeah, it goes it goes up and down, it goes it's not linear.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: If we look at those four, and and they are like a really important part of the model, right?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: These four steps or components.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Which ones do you think people in general find the most hard if you think of them as skills?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a skill of making observations, a skill of making requests, a skill of connecting with your needs.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: Which one do people struggle with?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that I have to quote here Jidduk Krishnamutti, uh this like the NVC quote, well, one of many.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's something like the highest form of human intelligence is observing without interpreting.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: So very often, if somebody is angry, like I think you have a sister, is that correct?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe she will say something about your dad or something.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: She's upset, I'm just imagining something, and you'd you'd ask her, yeah, what happened?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: And she might say, whatever.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: But then most often people have a kind of interpretation.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's very difficult for people to give pure observations about things that happen.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's a that's a big one for people for people to get what do you, when you speak person speaking personally, when you are now currently practicing NBC, do you struggle with these four steps?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: And if so, which one do you personally struggle with right now?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And is has it been the one that you've struggled with the whole time you've been practicing, or is it kind of shifted throughout your journey?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, yeah, I'm really learning it still.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's really a lifelong path.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that I'm a kind of a missionary or NVC is my whole reality, but it probably will stay a part of my yeah, aspiration.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I fail every day.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me, it's also the most tricky one, also just to choose one, but it's obviously not always easy to see the clear observation, especially when I'm triggered.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: I remember an instance maybe a month ago, or something like that, where I was very angry at that person I do the men's group with, uh and I told him also later we have all we can always work it out.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I it was so obvious that I was angry because of the way I was speaking to myself about the situation.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And this also happened in the morning, and my brain, you know, in the morning doesn't really work well, and I I am much more able to get uh triggered or work myself up if it happens.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, just you know, one of the things that Marshall Rosenberg also observed, I think, really well is that what makes us angry is not the event, but how we think about the event.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if somebody cuts me off in traffic, I can think, what an idiot, this person doesn't deserve to be on the road, you know, this is a danger for everybody.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: But if I if I might think to myself, oh, this person didn't see me, maybe they had a hard day, or maybe they're driving right now to their husband who is dying in the hospital or whatever, I have a completely different reaction.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, how I am interpreting events is just a huge factor about how I'm perceiving reality.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it yeah, it doesn't always work for me.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things that I learned from nonviolent communication is that it's something like when like make observations without evaluations, because if you make evaluations with your observations, it it would be interpreted as criticism, right?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: That like roughly speaking.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: And in theory, that makes complete sense.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Though I think as you just alluded to, when we get triggered, we are not seeing things correctly.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: We may not, we may not think we are doing anything wrong at all.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder if there's ever situations in which even when you make the perfect observation, someone will still see that as a criticism just because of the state that they're in.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Do you ever see that?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that is called Jackal Ears Out.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm have you ever seen these things?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna show them.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: So get your off puppet and puppet.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so then this is what Marshall always used to use.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: These are my partners, by the way.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: So if I have giraffe ears, I am listening to everybody.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: And if you if you would now call me an asshole, I'm just hearing, oh, John has some need that is not being met right now.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and if I'm turning them around, that that's called giraffe ears in.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm judging myself, like, oh Hans, you're looking really stupid right now with these ears, I was like, oh, I really want to have maybe a sense of dignity, right?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just magically hearing everything is coming from needs.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: But now if I have jackal ears, so okay, so the giraffe, you know, Marshall Rosenberg said the giraffe giraffe is the animal with the biggest heart of all land animal, so this is the symbol for empathy, and the jackal is kind of the symbol for judgmental thinking.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: So if I have my jackal ears on, which I have most of the time, and you just tell me some tell me some observation now, just as a You look like a terrible jackal.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe say something that's like obviously nice.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Say something nice.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I was gonna be attacking him.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: I say something nice.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: I love the way that the jackal ears complement your jumper.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's beautiful.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: So now what my jackal ears are telling me, John is just completely not taking me seriously.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: He obviously thinks I'm an idiot.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: So the thing is that your question to answer your question is if I have jackal ears on, you can be like the most beautiful, good-hearted, well-intended person.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just hear judgments.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: And the most painful variant is Jekyll ears in, where I'm just hearing my own self, you know, my own judgments, and I'm believing my judgments, and I'm kind of going into that cycle of, you know, horrible shit that can happen sometimes.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that is the that would be the NVC way of seeing that.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: The I like the jackal ears.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't encounter that, or at least I don't remember encountering that before.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: I would imagine that there are some individuals, for whatever reason, maybe there's like lots of good reasons, that almost have those jackal ears on chronically.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's always there.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then it can be difficult for them to change because they're those jackal ears are so fixed onto who they are that even if you say, like, hey, you've got jackal ears on, they're like even that's an attack.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can't even begin to create change in such a person.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like so.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Usually when we encounter people like that, like the advice is like stay away from such people because you can't really get anywhere with them.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: But life is not always that simple, right?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: So like whether it's through work, family, you know, just your your location, you may have to interact with someone who's got those on.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: How can you communicate with someone who's very stuck in that jackal mode?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: What's the is it just the same old NVC system or is there a different approach?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so personally I don't enjoy that very much.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I try to be giraffe, but I'm also often a jackal.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: I I would say it's for each his own.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I I would love to say.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, I can say what would be sort of the NVC wisdom.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And okay, maybe I can say this as an example.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I had an interaction with somebody who I hired to do some work for me.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the way he was treating me was really, I found it very awful.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was, yeah, he was sort of verbally abusive and got very angry, and like I just, let's just say, treated me like shit, you know, to put it in a bit of a simple way.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so I kind of fired him and I found another person to do the job for me.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: But what did help me, so the so for me, the I'm not gonna expose myself to somebody who's constantly treating me like that.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, that's just I have a need for respect or dignity or peace.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want that.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: But for myself, you know, of course, you know this parable of uh, you know, being angry at somebody is like taking poison and expecting them to die or something.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and so for me, what does help is that I have made attempts to, just for myself, for my own peace of mind, to see him as a human.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes what I like to call NVC is the intention of seeing humanity in each other, if not only for my own peace of mind.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's just more pleasant.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: So even, you know, my teacher Yoram always used this example of Putin, you know.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: You may think what you want, maybe for some people it would be Zelensky, but I don't like the strategies you choose, but I I believe that you're trying to meet the beautiful need through very tragic strategies.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And if I can see the humanity in that person by at least in principle knowing that he is trying to meet a beautiful need, it's just this strategy.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe, you know, this person who I was working with, I he's for me, it's obvious he has some trauma.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: He also told me about some of his trauma.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: He just hasn't processed it and it comes out, you know.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't like getting that thrown over me like a bucket of trash.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Also, you know, honestly, I did that myself to people too.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: So how much can I judge him in the end?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think I've grown in some ways, I'm still have a ways to go.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: But in this case, I just you know, I'm not gonna expose myself to that, but I'm not gonna dehumanize him.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's my long-winded answer.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, right.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: So the so you So when you say you you didn't want to expose yourself to him So from the NBC kind of framework, how does that work?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is it like you have certain like needs that are not being respected?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps you've made some requests that are not being fulfilled, and so your like consequence to that is okay, I now need to withdraw.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Is that like how the situation unfolds?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and the NVC part of it is indeed like, yeah, I have some needs.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm also having multiple pens on the stove, and I don't always have energy to resolve everything with everybody into the last detail.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, in some cases, I'll just be like, I'm sorry, I'm not gonna pursue this relationship anymore.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: I wish you all the best.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it because it can be quite an investment to have like NVC relationships, and I'm not saying that all NVC people should should do it like this.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: For me, this was the choice because I have a kind of limited energy, and like I said, I'm not like 100% giraffe, I'm maybe 7% giraffe and 93% jack-al.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have to be realistic about yeah, what can I handle, what can I deal with, and yeah, the it is honest also to to be, yeah, what do I need in the moment.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: One thing that I'm just to kind of go into that the needs element is I know that us as human beings are are very good at rationalizing and Storytelling and fabricating.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: And like, for example, if I if I really, if I'm on a diet and there's a chocolate bar around me, I may start telling myself, like, oh, I really need that because my blood sugar is low.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I really need to be healthy, so I need to eat that chocolate bar.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And there may be this kind of an almost like a dishonest interpretation of my own needs to myself.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: I would imagine that's quite common.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, especially with cravings and addictions, you know, those things that take hold of you and you justify certain things.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or I would I was really angry and abusive to that person because if I didn't act that way, they would do that to someone else, you know, else, and you you have all these things.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: How do you identify your needs in a way that you can actually trust that they are accurate?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: And they Yeah, so yeah.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: In the example that you name, I would say that yeah, it would need it would meet certain needs to eat that chocolate right now.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: But it but you're kind of neglecting other needs.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's there is a risk, I guess, to say, to kind of be willfully or have half willfully blind to some other needs.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: But the thing is, you will feel it.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you cannot escape your own wider mindful awareness, I would say.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: You you know when you're in congruence with yourself to a necessary degree or not.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are always exceptions and not everybody is the same.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think you can use needs as kind of a, you know, anything can be used psychotically, I guess.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: What if someone is like wants you some help from you and they're like, hey Hans, I I I just struggle with identifying my needs.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: I've never done it before.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: I've never said to someone, I need this, you know, uh it's it's alien to me.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: How does someone learn to communicate?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because that is something I still find a bit tricky to even say that I to say the word need feels like a very intense thing to say.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like I need this.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like urgent and imminent, and like I would probably use the word like prefer to or like make it a bit less.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, any advice you could give people on helping them use their needs more in communication?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that if that would be helpful to not use the word need, then you don't have to use it.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if you would say, Yeah, I really prefer this or that, sometimes people say, I value, you know, I value dignity, I value communication.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and actually it's a really interesting question.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: What are needs actually?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: So you can get me going on that if you want to.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, ultimately, yeah, ultimately, I think I like the phrase needs are frequencies of my own being.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, for instance, the need for dignity has come up a lot.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it is so so how do I know that I actually met the need for dignity?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I can, you know, maybe I can talk a certain way, or I can read certain books, or I can put on a certain nice shirt that gives me a dignified feeling.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: So none of those things inherently somehow magically have this dignity energy.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, I I feel dignified.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so a need I is kind of a meta experience.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that I recognize in an experience, kind of a gestalled experience of oh, so for instance, now with you, I'm let's see what needs are being met right now.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think let's just say communication.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm recognizing that we're having we're having a communication.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if people can see that, yeah, whatever you do, it's kind of a bold statement, but whatever anybody ever does, you could say, is to meet a certain need.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: So for you to interview me right now is maybe to, I don't know, what what would you guess that are needs that you're meeting right now?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well uh one thing that I was excited about or a need that I'm having is I'm getting a I'm I feel like I'm able to I'm talking to an expert on NVC who I also know.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like that would be more productive than talking to an expert on MVC that I didn't know, because I can I can have this conversation with you, and ultimately my need is like sharing these frameworks and ideas with people who will need them.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I there are people that have never heard of MVC and they will have heard of it now, and it could literally change their life because communication is essential in all aspects of their life.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a long need.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know where the specific need is in that, but yeah.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can imagine that it's for you super meaningful to bring something to people that will actually contribute to their life, and that just makes you happy, I imagine.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Especially this, because it this is I've seen different types of communication styles, and I've seen how it it's one of my passions, and it kind of breaks my heart the most, is dysfunction in family and parents, siblings, just there's just a lot that you you will never see, and it doesn't make the headlines.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, for example, there are right now, as we speak, parents that have been alienated from their children through bad communication, conflict, that may have not really done anything wrong, and they, you know, and their child is missing out on that, and it's not making headlines.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody's talking about it in the street.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's just another family, and there's like thousands and millions of those.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: And uh unfortunately, a lot of people they don't have the tools like NVC to kind of like help them manage conflict and difficulties and fallouts, and I do think it's a very important topic.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's and it it it can affect it can ripple through society, but it starts with like children and family, and you know, if every family was really good in the world, what would that make everything else in the world?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like if every family was tight and loving and empathic, things would change, I think.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very grateful for you that you uh like sort of uh yeah, nudged me into re reading that book.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's beautiful.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: I really believe in NVC.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's and just you know, NVC, NVC, NVC, it's empathy.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: It is like seeing humanity in each other, it is kindness and honesty, and it's it's it's it's certainly not mushy, you know, let's be all in on a pink cloud together.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: It can be kind of yeah, raw.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it it's it's not soft in a way.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it's yeah, it's amazing.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned conflict, and and one of the things is that I'm slowly learning to trust conflict.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, to skillfully have a conflict with somebody is a is a whole revelation for me that it can be a portal to connection instead of just, you know, another bridge being burnt.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm slowly learning that with many burnt bridges and fucked up relationships that I have behind me.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, to trust conflict.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that I I completely agree.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's something I'm realizing more and more, just through life experience, that it's almost like the thing the most important this is my opinion, the most important part of a of a conflict in a relationship or communication is not the conflict itself necessarily, but what happens after the conflict.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: So like if you have a conflict with your child, as we all will, because children can be crazy and you know, have you can have power battles, that is gonna happen, but there's a there's a a segment of the population that will just act like that conflict didn't happen.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's gonna be another group that tries to repair and connect and learn after the conflict has happened.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: And if you do that, then the conflict, like you said, can be a portal towards better relationships, more openness, taking each other more seriously.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: But if it's like swept under the rug like it didn't happen, then it's all you got from it is just bad feelings and you know, lack of safety in the relationship.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Is that how you see it, or do you have any extra nuance?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I resonate with that.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And one thing that comes up is also I want to I want to also have empathy for the people who are not managing to do that.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: And one thing that I can see in my own life, you've heard of Thomas Hubble, I imagine, at some point, this uh spiritual teacher.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, not super familiar.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: So he talks a lot about intergenerational trauma, uh-huh, you know, and yeah.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: And just to take the Second World War, you know, to take a light topic, yeah.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: But Second World War has had, I can't say direct, but there's a definite it has an impact on my life because my stepfather was well, a sociopathic alcoholic person, which was difficult.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: But he was what he was because of his father, who was forced to interview Germans after the Second World War, and he went completely mental because of all the shit he heard.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a very easy trace of passing on trauma that happens, and I think a very important thing to learn when you're learning MVC, and I'm trying to tell myself that as well, especially difficult in the beginning sometimes for people, is to have patience and understanding for people who are not trying to improve their communication or who are not trying to look in difficult mirrors.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's often because yeah, they have a lot of difficult stuff as well.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that we should accept every behavior from everybody, but for me, it is, I think, even more liberating to have understanding for people who I'm who have who I find very difficult to be with.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, it's just something like that is also important, I think, to to zoom out and to see, you know, as humanity where we are, you know, one war after another.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think Marshall was I don't want to oversimplify it or something, but he was onto something about the way humans tend to interact.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and for instance, for myself growing up where I grew up, uh it wasn't a war zone, but it also wasn't paradise.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's my my body accumulated stress and fear and trauma, and because of my body living in this kind of stress and fear and trauma state, I see the world as a dangerous place.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like my nervous system is wired that way.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: And because of that, in uh in NVC, there's this concept called enemy images.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: So if I am scared all the time and I perceive danger, even just as an assumption, I'm going to see a lot of people as enemies.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's this song by Slayer called, well, I don't know what it's called, I think Disciple.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the lines is me and my world of enemies.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then I read this book, I have finished it by Ken McLeod.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's called The Magic of Fajryana.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: And there's this beautiful line.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I don't know the entire quote, but it begins with there is no enemy.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's completely the opposite.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, I think my my travel has been from a world full of enemies to more and more seeing that there is no enemy.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's my nervous system relaxing and my my world changing because of that.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: And NVC is helping me to do that.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: The you you raised the point just now, and you said that you you are trying to be more essentially tolerant of people that may not be skilled at communication and don't have the same tools as you.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: I can definitely see how that could be a sticking point when you learn a skill set like NVC because you're gonna be so passionate and into it and know the terminology that you maybe then like trying to teach people that haven't asked to be taught about it in real time.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: The analogy that comes up for me as I was thinking about it is like it's a jujitsu analogy, and it's sort of like getting into some kind of street fight, and then while you're having the street fight, being like, ah, you need to move your arm this way, actually.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Grab me there.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, now and and it's like it's a bit clunky.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's much better to be in that sparring environment where you practice the the techniques cleanly, and then to almost like let it go a bit outside of the dojo and to trust more like the intuition.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: But obviously, not everyone has I know you have sparring partners and you're part of courses and groups where you can actually practice the techniques, but you gotta think someone just reading the book for the first time, and then they got like a grumpy parent in the next room, they're like, hmm.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that sorry, that wasn't that wasn't an observation, you had an evaluation there.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: So technically I feel offended by that, you know, and that people are like, huh?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: So do you see that?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they called that, yeah.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry No, no, I I was just uh gonna ask you to comment on that if that's something that yeah.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I uh I'm guilty of that a lot.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of almost a necessary step in the path of trying to learn NVC.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: And there's also a word for it, it's called the obnoxious giraffe.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly what you what you said.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and so, you know, I indeed I do give courses, and one of the first things I say now to people is don't become NVC police.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, mostly try to in integrate this in yourself.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think I did hear, I'm not blaming anybody else, but I think just I didn't hear that enough in trainings.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: I did.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's so easy to do that because you are like it can be a revelation.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you become this preacher, and now all of a sudden you are the light of the world telling everybody what good communication is.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that really misses the mark in an important way.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, at the obnoxious giraffe state.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but like you said, it applies to many things, even like assertiveness training.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: You start being assertive for the sake of it rather than as a the point of it, and like just to state your needs better.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: You just start like being disagreeable for its own sake.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a lot of that.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Can I ask you a question?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know you are really big on stoicism.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like there's kind of a link to that because isn't stoicism about yeah, just you know, focus on yourself and what you can control and everything.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see a link there or a link in what way between what two things?
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I see the point is kind of that you know you can try to educate everybody.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like for me, for instance, me, I had this definitely this phase of trying to educate everybody.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: But then I'm trying to more and more embody mean just being it myself instead of trying to, you know, broadcast it all the time.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds a bit stoic to me.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if you resonate.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I there's definitely an element of that.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think the there are gonna be very vocal stoics as well, you know, that are just kind of ramming the dichotomy of control down people's throats.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's a risk we all run when we get passionate about something.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: It comes from a good place.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think the reason why I've got to a point now where I do that less is, like you said, the necessary step.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: I've done it so many times in my past that now I'm almost like it makes me cringe a little bit to just to be that person that's like the the zealot or the overly passionate person who's like force feeding all of my ideas to other people.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I don't know, I think there's something very wise about this.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on my path, I do my thing, you don't need to agree with it or like it, like it.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: And just speaking personally, I think you've you've been good at doing that from my vantage point over the years, where if you don't feel like if say you're working on a creative project, you may keep it to yourself until you feel ready to share it with someone.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you're if you have a habit that you're cultivating, like a certain type of meditation practice, you're not gonna ask for an accountability buddy.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because in some way that may change your relationship to that habit.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's more about your own personal uh practice.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think I would say that thank you for that observation.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: But and also I think I'm successful, you know, in varying uh degrees of success in that.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: I sometimes also have a cringe with myself.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like currently, there's a theme for me that is becoming apparent that it's so there's such a shame for me in admitting that sometimes I I want to seek external validation, and you you probably recognize that from your past or something, and it's it's this cringe feeling.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I don't want to have this big moment of a few weeks ago where that became very obvious that I really liked, I really care a lot for my my partner's opinion.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, right?
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's not that's fine, but there's also a way in which that can overshoot a little bit, and that does happen for me sometimes, and but I like seeing that, it's painful.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I can't say that I like it, but it's a good mirror.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I saw that mirror recently as as well.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, this quote about you know, sharing you said something about sharing stuff a bit too early, and I like the quote of seeds need to grow in the dark.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: I like that you have to nurture something, yeah, nurture it for a while before otherwise it gets kind of it evaporates.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely had that experience, especially working with other people.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you bring forth an idea that's not quite ready for like the socialized world of other people, and then it just sort of it becomes something else, and you it's almost like the idea's been killed.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: It looks like it's continued to live, but it isn't the same thing anymore.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that can be that can be s difficult and hard to catch in the moment, you realize later on often.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to ask you if you think NVC is universally applicable, or whether there are certain situations where the effectiveness might be limited, you know, and so maybe like what are some common areas where people are like, oh, NVC is not useful here?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: And what is your kind of response to that?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you agree, do you disagree?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: I I I can see that there's a perspective where NVC is universal.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: For instance, when you can say, Yeah, and anything anybody ever does, or even any organism ever does, they obviously do to meet a need, right?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Even if if if somebody kills another person, if you were to have a conversation with them afterwards, they may have trying to meet a need for recognition.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, you know.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's always so there is that universality, and they're also called universal human needs.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: And also, you know, there are situations where maybe some calamity is happening, or in a war zone, you know, if you're literally being threatened with with gun violence, you're not going to do the mediation in that moment, perhaps.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you maybe you're going to do something, something else.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I'm happy to also admit that yeah, in some places NVC is not applicable, but then still there's there's the there's a concept of, for instance, protective use of force.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if there's some imminent danger, you might not have time or some reasonable expectation of having a conversation.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: You might have to defend yourself.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: And still that that could be seen in that in that in the NVC lens.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: What I sometimes where I draw a line is I think that that NVC does have kind of a worldview which is you know valid, and it it has a perspective where we are all organisms.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: We are all so I would say that there is some limited scope of what I am in NVC.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: I am an organism with needs.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if I am no if I'm no longer identifying with myself as an organism, but maybe as vast spacious awareness, you know, the non-dual advaita ground of reality, there's no such thing as a need, perhaps.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, that is not so readily accessible.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I I can point to that, but I cannot say that I live there or something.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I think that's fair enough.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I think also like I guess as you stated at the beginning of the talk, NVC is more than just the surface level of tactics.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a a way of I guess interacting with self and the world.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so even if someone took away your ability to speak, that would not necessarily take away your ability to practice MVC.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in principle, like the the the philosophy behind it.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: So even in limitate limited situations, the the it doesn't stop framework from being used completely.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to ask you so I I've started studying recently actually actually, and I'm uh this is gonna be new for you, so I'm gonna be throwing you a curveball in a way, but I just want to get your general opinion on this.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I've started studying the work of someone called Bill Eddy, who's like a so clinical social worker, family attorney, and a a published author on high conflict uh relationships and dynamics and families.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: And he has a very simple framework for interacting with high conflict individuals.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's the called a BIFF framework or BIF framework.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's brief, keep things brief, informative, friendly, and firm.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's basically the gist of it.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: So like he uses the phrase blame speak, how certain high conflict uh high conflict individual is often preoccupied by blame.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: Really like blame is a big thing for them.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, unstable emotions, a lot of blame, possibly like a cluster B personality disorder, or at least traits of it, you know, and and they're like really locked into this.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: And if you try to give them advice, even apologize, if you try to be overly empathic with them, they can just use that as like, see, I knew I was right, and see I knew you were wrong, and see how terrible you are.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like the Jackalie is kind of thing, flipping back.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think about frameworks like, you know, the brief, informative, friendly, and firm framework, which isn't the same as like observations, feelings, needs, requests?
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's more like specific with like, okay, you're in this high conflict dynamic, you've got to reply about something.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: You don't necessarily want to keep the conversation going more than it needs to.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's what the brief is about, right?
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to give too much fuel.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that that is still somewhat like can connect into an NVC framework, or do you think that's like a different thing?
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: How do you how do you perceive that example?
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, you know, disclaimer, I can't really say a lot about it because I just only heard these five sentences, which is fine, I don't mind at all.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: Another one would be that, yeah, you know, such a framework could be easily placed in a sort of a meta framework of, yeah, that framework is meeting needs.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: And another thing I want to say is that yeah, I think we need many things in the world.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: I can really vouch for NVC because I really like the deep intention of it.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: I I really love the intention of without being hippie about it, really trusting and it's a lot of trust in NVC.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think as a human species, we need all we can get.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: And if Biff works, let's use BIF, you know, in this situation.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: If NVC works there, why not?
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that there are many different ways to roam.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: The only thing is that I I can really vouch for NVC in in its depth.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: I I cannot say a lot about BIF.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, why not?
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so like I guess one of the things in terms of like the intention that how I'm seeing it with it with NVC and BIF.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I want you to correct me if you think that I'm off the mark here.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that something like NVC is an invitation to connect.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I see it.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas something like the BIF framework is almost like a tool to disconnect.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it's almost like you see what I'm saying?
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: So they serve two very different purposes.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, for me, those are not in disagreement with each other.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I I did the same with that thing I was telling you about.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm not going to invest all my loving energy because I have a limited amount of energy.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he his wife has to clean that mess up with him.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna do that.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm with him, I'm gonna I'm gonna biff him, you know, and I'm gonna NVC you and my partner and my child.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, that's yeah.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we've just found the bridge there.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: So the NVC would be like a form of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt and inviting them into c compassionate communication.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: If needs are not being met, requests are not being met consistently, and you still have to re interact with someone, then you may transition over to something like Biff, where it's like, you're you said like I I couldn't be vulnerable, I couldn't open myself up to this person.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you you have to find some way of communicating the yeah there.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I guess they do they just di are different tools.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure m Marshall Rosenberg biffed a few people in a day as well.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: So uh yeah, even more saint now in the end.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, that yeah, that's so that's interesting.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: And if it gets really bad, you use jujitsu, right?
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: If it gets even worse.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: The other thought I had was with NVC.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: So if I look at you now as someone who's got NVC skills and frameworks, you are now going to be applying those ideas and perspectives to every new relationship you meet.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm like, hey Hans, meet my friend.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: They're meeting Hans with the toolkit of NVC.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I would imagine that you know the friend that you kind of biffed, or the person who's working with you that you kind of didn't want to keep communicating with, you knew NVC at the time you met him.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: So something was like, I'm presuming like you re you know my needs are not being met.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know there's problems, you know that there's you're trying, it's not working.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I'm trying, I'm trying, I'm trying, it's not working.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you're in that position now, whereas there are going to be people that are already entangled in situations, and now while they're in that situation, now they're learning what MVC is when they're already deep into it.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: So like let's just say they're in a relationship, they're married, they have four kids, they got a mortgage with someone, and they're they co-own a business with someone who they're starting to realize is isn't the best person, right?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they have problems with communicating, and maybe they're a bit sociopathic and have like a drinking issue and all these kind of things.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: So they they're past that filtering out stage where they're where they recognize early on their needs are not being met, and now they're deep in the in the trenches while learning MVC.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: I would imagine obviously that's quite hard, you know, because they're gonna learn a skill when they're living life on hard mode.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, how would you advise?
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what's the process there for someone like that?
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure a lot of people turn to NVC out of desperation as well.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: So you mean like a married couple, for example?
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: Married couple, yeah, for example.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I think it's happened more than once that one, especially when one partner starts learning about NVC, that could be the end of the relationship.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: That that's possible, right?
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: Just even from the perspective of it is it can be really quite transformational.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think with something like NVC, it works really well if your partner is at least willing to listen to you or to to to to to have a you know to be present in that world.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think also in a lot of NVC spaces, like communities or work groups or courses, you know, when you experience empathy for the first time, it's really kind of a coming-home thing.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: And empathy meaning, you know, being heard, being listened to by somebody who just who doesn't judge you, who just hears you, who does his best or her best to really see your beauty.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that common that we experience that, and it can be such a yeah, such a warm bath that you know it can be even a bit of a risk for the relationship if that is not somehow managed.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess an advice would be go together.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: And if if that's not possible, you know, see how much you can go together.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, shall I pick up my thread?
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, please.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: If I did tip out just Yeah, so I think it as you know, stepping into this warm bath of NVC and empathy can be a risk.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you almost like a friend that is just amazing and meets all these needs that your partner hasn't been meeting, you know, especially when you, like you say, you're in a relationship where maybe some needs are not being met structurally.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it it can be a risk that might be okay, you know.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that is not the relationship you want to be in anyway.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm I I've I can't know, of course.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: But if you want to keep the relationship, I would really suggest to somehow do that together, to somehow share that.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, again, maybe maybe some relationships, maybe that's the end of the relationship.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's not a bad thing.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: When there's children involved, it's more complicated.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't know.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so what I what I'm hearing is your advice is just like start trying to practice it with the best intentions and don't overthink it, like see where where that leads.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: It could lead to something beautiful and fl and positive and flourishing.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: It could lead to evidence that it's not gonna work out.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that and that's fine too.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just the reason I asked the question is because whenever we are learning new social skills, I find, based on my past experience, that it it can be it can be difficult because humans are very good at detecting changes in baseline.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: So like if you if one of us has a relationship, we suddenly start speaking in a different with different words, and it it's like, hmm, something's different about this person.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: And even if the change is positive, any kind of change could be paranoia or like what is going on, why is this person acting differently?
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then that can make you doubt yourself, you lose confidence in what you're trying to do, you feel maybe a bit like a phony, and maybe you're just not very good.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, like you you said earlier, you try to do your observations and you end up annoying the hell out of the person you're talking to, and you're the ah, this doesn't work, like I can't stick with this.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it can be hard, it can be difficult.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: So generally, the advice that I I would give to people learning anything is you want to be practicing in easy, small ways, like in martial arts, you want to be practicing with a compliant partner, then a less experienced partner, and then work your way up to the harder challenges.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: With uh any kind of communication technique, I think, yeah, like learning it, quizzing yourself on it, journaling about it, practicing it to the mirror, to a wall, maybe seeing it to close practicing it with close friends first, you know, developing those skills.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: I notice in our WhatsApp communication, you speak often with the NVC framework, you know, if there's uh attention or something like that.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: All of that is practice.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's nothing can really go wrong in that kind of context.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like the most important conversation of your entire life.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably not the place to practice NVC for the first time.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it is.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's the thing.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you have no choice, yeah, it is what it is, right?
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: But it's give given the choice, you probably want to develop some level of skill.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, fair enough.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I see it.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, yeah.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so maybe we can we can talk about that.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: Practicing these frameworks.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm thinking of myself now, I'm listening to this.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: All right, of course I can go off and read the book.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: Are there any top books you'd recommend?
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: Or I I listened to the audiobook by Marshall, which I really liked.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_01: And there's one book that I also listened to, which is I th oh maybe a f and uh Say What You Mean, I think, also by Marshall.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: And there's one book that's something like Mindfulness and NVC or something like that.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: I can give you a few links to put in the description.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: But those two books are good resources to go to.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: For sure, Marshall's book is like the the Bible of NVC.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have any written articles on NVC?
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I have my website where I have some stuff that people can read, but mostly, you know, uh following your footsteps, I have some stuff on Insight Timer, of course.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: But that's kind of it.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell On Inside Timer, is there like a I'm just thinking of like the first place people can go?
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: Is there like a do you have like a one what would that be?
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I recently published a very simple course called something like the elemental paradigm of NVC or something.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and the first one that I ever put out was called Meeting the Consciousness of NVC, which is a very simple, I think two or three-part course that you can do in 15 minutes or something.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's really the intro.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we can cut this out if you don't agree with it, but maybe just as an idea, maybe the first lesson of that course I could publish or republish on my podcast and provide a link to the entire course.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: So at least people then can just immediately start learning without any friction.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we could do that.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you you've listed some some books, you've got a a lot of you've you're pumping out a lot of material and insight time, a lot of courses, this is amazing, a lot of tracks, you're like an endless stream, you could see how much work you've been putting into this to be able to create so quickly.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that's gonna be available to people.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: We'll republish some things.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: But all of that's gonna take a bit of time and they're gonna have to leave the conversation.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: But while we're on this conversation right now, how can people start practicing NVC like specifically?
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: Are there any maybe it's not even about the four steps, maybe it's just like certain uh maxims.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: You've already shared some really good ideas about the jackal and the giraffe, and but yeah, are there any kind of frameworks you'd give to someone like, hey, I can help your communication and relationships, follow these guidelines, what would they be?
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like a very simple thing to kind of as a mantra almost.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: So one thing is to understand or to realize, whenever even if you're triggered, it's never about you.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm triggered about you, or like if I'm if if I'm upset by something you say to me, then what you said to me is not about me.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's always about you.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: We're all having our own experience, we're all walking in our own hall of mirrors in the world.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if I'm finding something painful about you, it's because some, it's I'm seeing something about myself I don't like.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's never personal.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: If you can, if you can take that, somebody's never out to get you.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: If somebody's hurtful to you, they're experiencing pain, and that's the only way they can deal with it.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one thing I think it's never personal.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the other one is just to ask yourself the question: if you're if you're angry or if you're just not understanding somebody's behavior, just take a moment and just for the practice, see if you can just ask what need would they be trying to meet?
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: That just completely humanizes somebody if they're not human to you.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: Just understand that everybody's just, you know, winging it on this planet, but everybody's trying to meet a need.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I think those two things are like, if you can take that as a mantra, that would really be that can be a big shift already for people.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: I love those two mantras, and I I want to take it a little bit further because my mind immediately asks the question, okay, what if I come up with a an idea of a need that they're trying to meet?
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just always coming back to this idea of dealing with people that are very in blame speak mode.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's kind of because do doing that with you know someone you're very close to, like a friend, I think, yeah, you can just leave it there and then you can talk about it and connect.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: But someone who's a bit more, yeah, a bit more sensitive and difficult, if I were to say, I think you need this, they may say, like, don't tell me what I need.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: So what's the bridge between identifying the need and communicating it?
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: So if you tell somebody what they are needing or feeling, you know, even somebody who might not be difficult, it it can be a bit jarring.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: People, I I mean, my experience doesn't have to go where everybody, but you have more success if you make it a question.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then be open for for no, that's not it.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: When I'm listening to some, you know, when I'm having an empathy call with somebody, which I do every week with some people, I might make a guess, you know, and I'm listening to you and you're talking about your sister.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why your sister comes up, but then yeah, oh, is it that you really needed some uh compassion?
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll be like, no, no, I I wanted I wanted her to uh understand me.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't matter what if my guess is wrong or right, it is for you to feel if that's you know, it's for you to find yourself.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so if if there's somebody who is who's very blamey, you could you and it works so well also because you're not you're not blaming back.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: You you can just say something like, Oh, I it seemed that you're upset.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: Are you needing to be understood right now?
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: Just that could work.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying, you know, would work for everybody, but just ask them the question.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_00: Using questions and being open to them disagreeing, but you don't need them to agree.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: This you're kind of offering a branch.
• 1:01:25
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you're also showing that you're not taking their blame personally.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: You're using their, and of course you you have to want to do this, but you're you're just showing them that it's a way into themselves.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because people who are in a blaming mode, unless they're really completely off-the-chart psychopath, they I don't think they are enjoying themselves.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_01: And if they are, if they could find themselves, I think I they would prefer that.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: And this could be a way in to do that.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really yeah, that's that's great.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: That answers the question of taking the need and what do you do with it next.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: So another question I I was curious about is measuring progress in the study of NVC, nonviolent communication.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, is that even something we should do?
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: Should we stud should we have a metric for how well we're doing?
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then if so, how do you measure your progress?
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because let's just say take someone who's studying a lot of MVC, learning all the terminology, attempting to practice it, but they look around and they're like, I'm having more conflict than ever.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've I've I've had like I've lost like 10 of my best friends, and you know, and it's like the the the proof is not there, right?
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you know if you're doing it well or yeah.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_01: I love that question.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I think it's a part of the path.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's part of the course.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_01: When you study NVC, seriously, you're gonna have more conflict.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: And on the one hand, it's a sign that you're not there yet, and it's a sign that you're you're trying to do, you're trying to get somewhere.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I almost lost a relationship with my father because of me trying to practice NVC.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, oh, he'll probably really love to hear all the judgments I have about him, which I then texted him.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he didn't like that, and he didn't speak to me for months.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was a really painful that's rough.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so, of course, you know, there's something called immeasurable metrics or something like I heard this cool quote somewhere recently, the like, you know, non-metric metrics.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, I think progress is internalization rather than trying to educate people all the time.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, our joint friend Martijn, I'm I'm not sure if you have noticed it.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do some positive gossip about Martin, which is also NVC practice, positive gossip.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I have actually noticed in him, he really seems to embody a quality of humility that I really enjoy.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: That really seems it's clearly his intention.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: He's not saying a word about it, he's just doing it.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh did you notice that?
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: Just wondering.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_00: So there's two.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, okay, so I I love positive gossip.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds great.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's two components to what you shared with me, and I'm just trying to unravel them.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: So one of them presupposes that Martin is doing something intentionally, but is not talking about it.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't Yeah, I couldn't know if I noticed that, because I have no way of knowing that.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_00: But obviously, you may have spoken to him a lot more than I have about different things, so you may have a lot more data to base that on, which I don't.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I couldn't take that leap.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: Have I noticed though, just humility in general?
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that that comes up, yeah, as like a now that you say it, it's like, yeah, I recognize it.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_00: And humility is a be a very beautiful thing, in my opinion, you know, and it's something that it feels good to be humble, actually, as well, to be truly humble and to give other people credit and to not want to play your own roll-up and you know, because it's like, let's just say that you help me with NVC and you I have positive changes in my relationships because of it.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_00: It is true that you played a role in that.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: It is true that I played a role in that.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_00: But when it comes time to talking about it, which one do you want to focus on more?
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_00: And you would it would you would be valid to talk about both.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like without your help, like I wouldn't have done what I needed to do.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: Or you could say, like, I can't really take much credit for this because ultimately you are the one who showed up in those relationships and went through those emotions.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that there's something really beautiful about that.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I learn things like that through friends and through people when they kind of do it to me.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh man, that I that is cool that you did that, you know, when someone is like humble in your presence.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I see that in you and in Martin.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and I honestly don't see it that much in myself.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_01: Not me trying to be all virtuous, but it's honestly I would love to be more humble.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_01: I love, I also love that quality.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm so happy when I manage to some humility, you know.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's easy to fake.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's you know, this this this one line that somebody said, like, don't be so humble, you're not that great.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's kind of to the point.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so you you you want to say something, I think.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, just uh so it's a there's an interesting now.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not with you every day, so maybe your partner could have a different opinion if she was given a questionnaire or your close friends where you are are actually living.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_00: But from my perspective, that's all I can.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_00: speak from.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_00: There seems to be a little bit of a disconnect between how I view you and how you view you.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's not like a negative thing.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like a it's like a fun.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, that's an interesting like thing that's showing up for me.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you made it clear a few times that you have a lot of jackal within you.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's one of the things you said a few times.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_00: You even said like your giraffe is like 7% potentially I know you kind of thrown that out maybe lightly.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you change it to like 9%, I don't know.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_00: You said 10%.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes it's 7%.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly 7%.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then you said that you don't have humility and things like that.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_00: But it's funny because if I was doing positive gossip about you, I would be like this guy, the way he communicates is crazy.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_00: He's just so like compassionate and thoughtful.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_00: He's always asking me like if that's what I really meant and getting clarification so I don't he's not you know like I would be like nobody talks like Hans.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody communicates like Hans on that level which is like I'm not just saying this to kind of give you like an over the top compliment but it is obviously you're you're doing the work right like this is a focus for you so obviously you're gonna stand out compared to the the the ordinary person that I speak to.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you think that disconnect comes from or is it even a disconnect or am I missing maybe the kind of internal talk or yeah I like that you say it because I'm often afraid that I am unkind.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that might I and I've noticed that before sometimes to say it a bit simply I think I was a real asshole in the past and then I think I've really overcorrected since then and then still my self-image I have kind of self-image dysmorphia sometimes in that sense and I'm I have I still carry a fear that I'm I very often carry a fear that I'm bumping into people.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's very uncomfortable it's just part of my psychology that's not super resolved yet although I'm aware of it.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: Another part is that I and I really appreciate your appreciation and I take it on board and and it it serves me as a reminder like oh yeah I'm not as bad as I think and also there's this thought oh but you should hear my teacher Yoram speak you know you'll be like oh my God you know maybe even a little bit too much.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know and I will say because there is this other quote that came to me a while ago and I love it so much because it's exactly how I like to see myself because if I look at myself four years ago and now I'm a complete master but if I look at where I want to be four years from now I'm an absolute beginner.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that is really how I see it.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_01: I and and maybe I I I like it because it's like you know seeing a kid growing up and you have seen me growing up let's say and now you see me and I don't and I really like your feedback because I I take it and I think okay cool I I think I have I have acquired some skill and of course it makes sense but for me I see myself every day in the mirror and I don't see my face change.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah totally but also you know I have some awful moments you can ask my partner I I've I've I have some shitty behavior sometimes you know it's not every day I'm the I'm the I'm no saint and I also have beautiful behavior but yeah it's I have I have everything.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_01: So you know there's a reason why I started doing NVC is also what I'm saying.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_00: To draw an analogy to GJ2 I so I'm a purple belt now the next belt would be I don't give that much credence to belts it's a kind of a general framework you know to look at maybe time spent training or something but the next belt would be brown then it'll be black.
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_00: I like the perspective that learning starts a black belt just as a as a as a fun way to look at it like a frame as opposed to this view that learning is then a black belt just because it I've I'm excited by the lifelong journey in the study and it sounds a lot like what you're saying.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like you are you may already be a black belt in this process, right?
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe you're a black belt who's got still lots that you want to learn and refine and and that's exciting, you know, for you to to think about that the other difference between like a skill, like a martial arts-based skill and something like communication is that I can decide whether or not I want to go to the gym but it's very difficult to decide to not communicate because we've got obligations, relationships, children, right?
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can't just be like, I don't feel like training today.
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_00: So there may be times when I if I was forced to go training I'd be just like wrecked and ill and exhausted and I would suck.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_00: I just wouldn't go to the gym on those days.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have that luxury right so you're gonna see the worst of you.
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah you're you're pointing to something very interesting because uh it's the bit of the the burden of knowing right and so yeah I've I've seen people who I really look up to in my NVC community who are like beautiful teachers, so inspired and I'm like why am I even a teacher?
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really not exaggerating.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_01: I often have that thought you know if there are those other teachers out there.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_01: And also yeah yeah knowledge comes with a burden and I don't mean that to sound like I don't know how, but like you know I see myself behaving every second of every day and I also know and I miss the mark and maybe that's why it can sometimes be a little heavy and maybe one thing I want to say about it is that so I do have self-doubt as every every every other living human being on this planet I have also self-doubt.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_01: What I what I like so much about NVC is that I remember that it's not about me being some kind of perfect person but more than that you know I'm giving a course in January for 11 sessions and I'm nervous about it.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_01: But if I remember oh but it's about showing honesty and and for sort of demonstrating real vulnerability then that is when I succeed.
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I suc I literally succeed when I'm myself and I have to remember myself that remind myself sometimes and that is like oh you know there's this weight of perfectionism that I have and yeah so NVC helps me also to navigate that.
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I could see why that would be challenging it kind of it reminds me of someone like if someone was teaching like dating advice and then they they maybe like purposely exp got rejected in front of you that would actually be almost like a more powerful and valuable lesson than them succeeding in front of you.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're you know they could they could teach you like you know like they're about the value of just being real and not you know needing to be perfect all the time and that life goes on and this is part of life, you know and yeah I think it would be very I would be turned off if someone like claimed to have completely figured out all aspects of communication and relationships.
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's never going to be a time when it's like this is completed now.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know like you could have a child who like let's just say you have the best skills in NVC in your current relationships and then your child becomes a teenager and all of a sudden there's a new challenge that you've never faced in your entire life pops up.
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes you a beginner again.
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's possible.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know obviously you wouldn't be a beginner because you would have that experience but it would feel maybe emotionally like I'm a I'm I'm starting again yeah I don't know I'm not an expert in this specific situation.
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_00: But that's maybe why life is actually so interesting.
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because it gives you those moments to practice and and then yeah yeah I mean I feel like a beginner with NVC and that's that's what you hear often I mean many of my MVC peers they say that too and it's not some kind of humble brag it's really that it feels because as you say now or I think you said it somewhere like yeah you you just said something like that like communication is such an intuitive thing you know we literally learn that from our parents it's super unconscious in a way so to try to change that is just you know one maybe one little drop a day in an ocean so yeah we have to we have to be humble in that I think yeah we I think we're kind of getting towards the end of the conversation but I I'd like to kind of flip it back to you a little bit more and ask you personally how has nonviolent communication helped you as your role as a dad father a partner a friend like have has anything changed over these years because of that noted notably or do you still just feel like you know Hans and that stability is there or I'm really still getting to grips with integrating it well into my life and so but for me also the thing is that NVC happened but also a lot of other things happened.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so for instance I had a relationship a few years ago that was really I don't want to overuse the word traumatic it used a lot these days but let's just use that word.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was quite painful let's say and somehow my whole childhood stuff just came up and I'm you know I did a year of therapy and I did a bunch of things and so this is all while NVC also came into my life and so one thing that has happened is that it increased my sensitivity a lot.
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know it's a bit like seeing more and more you know you do see more you do see things that are going on between people.
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that I also want to like shout out to my meditation teacher Michael Taft the importance of when you're growing your sensitivity also grow your equanimity in equal measure otherwise you're just going to be the sensitive person just being triggered all day long.
• 1:16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me that is something I'm working on currently integrating trying to integrate that and growing my equanimity as powerful as my sensitivity.
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Love that yeah it's very important.
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm a work in progress and at the same time yeah it has really saved me.
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_01: I can and maybe just one illustration because I get I have a very judgmental mind very judgmental mind.
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_01: So NVC is very helpful because you know we didn't say that quote yet but Marshall Rosenberg has this one famous quote of something like every judgment criticism diagnosis expression of anger is a tragic way to meet an unmet need.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you only hear your own judgments which many of us do all day long it's pretty horrible sometimes and for me having a very you know judgmental mind a lot of negative self-talk I get reminded of oh there's a need not being met right now.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_01: I can listen deeper than just this negative self-talk.
• 1:17:55
  SPEAKER_01: I remember a while ago I was having quite a negative judgment towards my brother then I had a negative reaction in myself this was all happening in my head in a split second and then I had a negative judgment towards myself I shouldn't talk like that and I was kind of hating on myself it was quite intense but what then happened was there was a third voice a third layer that was asking me to I don't remember the words but something like reminding me to love that part and this was something I've I'd never experienced before that was literally a new new voice in me that said hey please be kind to that part and that is just completely magical and this I believe is you know not just MVC I've also done a bunch of compassion practice you know so yeah I guess that's sort of my uh answer yeah but I really like your approach to as using MVC as part of like a like a holistic framework.
• 1:18:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know it's like the compassion met based meditation is going to be a force multiplier in combination with NVC obviously you know it's yeah yeah I I had this question for myself because I'm I'm also trying to grow my compassion I don't think I have the most compassion of anybody I've ever met you know not even by any any measure.
• 1:19:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had this thought at one point but how do I actually grow compassion?
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know I I can be technically empathic but how do I actually actually be more compassionate and then there are some practices you can do.
• 1:19:31
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 1:19:32
  SPEAKER_00: M meta meditation as being one of them Yeah exactly and Tonglen also I like that one do you is it the kind of thing though that you can practice these practices for say like three months and then your compassion is just bigger after that permanently or is it something you have to keep doing?
• 1:19:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I I'm not an authority on that.
• 1:19:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's a tricky one yeah I know yeah I I I don't know that I couldn't but you have noticed a shift in your levels of compassion from these practices yeah from from NVC as well and from yeah from these other compassion meditations yeah did you follow a specific guided meditation for Tonglen and like method you could share?
• 1:20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah Michael Taft Michael Taft if you look at if you go to YouTube and you type in Michael Taft Tonglen so T-O-N-G L E N you get a few of his it's it's really cool.
• 1:20:28
  SPEAKER_01: I actually have one of them myself on Inside Timer but I I would recommend Michael Taft his version and how long are they just curious well he typically has hour long meditations mine is a half an hour but I think if you just go to Inside Timer and type in Tonglen there are probably five 10 15 minute versions of this practice as well how is Tonglen different from meta?
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because when I practice both of them they seem quite similar.
• 1:20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Are they similar or they so again I'm not an expert I believe metta is like just you know wanting good stuff for people and including yourself, right?
• 1:21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And Tonglen is I think a very well Tonglen so the way I have learned it is that you imagine the burning sun in your heart it's not exactly your own heart but it's Buddha nature so you know it's comp it's like endlessly compassionate you breathe in suffering from somebody else the black smoke of their suffering into your heart sun which gets immediately completely evaporated and then it gets transformed into light of bliss and and happiness and joy and warmth and compassion and grace and you exhale that back to the person.
• 1:21:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's completely effortless and you're you're you're really not to do that yourself but it's like the Buddha nature in you that does that and yeah it it really feels wonderful to do that.
• 1:21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a little it's it's a visualization I think a bit more than standard meta practice but again I'm not authority on that.
• 1:21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know or no because I've I've listened to Pam Machodron a few courses of her that she focuses on Tonglen and then quite a lot and then yeah and then uh also Tara Brock.
• 1:22:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sort of still at the phases of like just learning and experimenting but that's great that Michael Taft has the that guided meditation for people that want to start practicing with that.
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so all of your links your inset timer courses and tracks and websites we will include in the show notes.
• 1:22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Cool and this is a big topic and I I personally want to go back and revisit some of the nonviolent communication frameworks myself and then maybe we can have another conversation at some point when I've gone back to the source material as I'm sure I'll have more questions and reflections for you.
• 1:22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah that'd be cool.
• 1:22:47
  SPEAKER_00: I I really appreciate you taking the time out to chat about this.
• 1:22:51
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's quite late for you so yeah I just I really appreciate it and it's been really useful for me and no doubt for other people too.
• 1:22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks a lot man I really enjoyed it as well.
• 1:23:01
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for the opportunity to uh share