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Women and Dissociation · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Okay, this is Annie and Samantha, and I'm not going
0:07
Speaker 1: to Stephane never told your protection of iHeart Radio. Yeah,
0:18
Speaker 1: so at the very beginning here because I have a feeling.
0:23
Speaker 1: But usually when we do these episodes any we get
0:25
Speaker 1: a pretty good response, and you guys really relate to this.
0:28
Speaker 1: So I have to put some disclaimers up in this
0:30
Speaker 1: at the very top. While we were working on this episode,
0:34
Speaker 1: I did have a full breakdown trying to decipher the
0:38
Speaker 1: difference between disassociation and dissociation. So if you can't tell,
0:43
Speaker 1: that's what our episode is about today, women in dissociation.
0:47
Speaker 1: But my pea brain really has a hard time saying
0:51
Speaker 1: the word dissociation, So I don't know why I have
0:55
Speaker 1: used that term always. I've never really used the term
0:57
Speaker 1: dissociation under dissociative um. So please don't judge me and
1:02
Speaker 1: the likelihood of me using it, and I'm going to
1:04
Speaker 1: try to correct myself because I know it is the
1:07
Speaker 1: correct way of using it. It's pretty high, so please
1:10
Speaker 1: don't at me or judge me too harshly. Because they
1:13
Speaker 1: are actually synonyms, with dissociate being a more popular word
1:17
Speaker 1: over disassociate as of recently, both have the meaning of
1:22
Speaker 1: quote to remove from or cause to break the association
1:25
Speaker 1: of thank you for your dictionary dot com. However, when
1:29
Speaker 1: it comes to the psychological level, they are not created equal.
1:32
Speaker 1: So this is why I say dissociative. Did you hear me? Struggle?
1:36
Speaker 1: And I really am trying. I'm trying, so please don't
1:40
Speaker 1: count how many times, although now that I've said it,
1:42
Speaker 1: you may actually start counting how many times I do
1:44
Speaker 1: this today. I've done that before. Yeah myself, Yeah, yeah,
1:50
Speaker 1: I'm kind of scared to come back. I'm sure Christina
1:52
Speaker 1: is already dreading it. Our amazing producer who's like, I'm
1:55
Speaker 1: not to cut this out. So many times you can
1:58
Speaker 1: keep counting so to let us know how many women
2:04
Speaker 1: make an announcement. So what we were talking about is
2:06
Speaker 1: the psychological level. So that term would be the associate,
2:09
Speaker 1: which refers to quote a split within a person's psyche,
2:12
Speaker 1: a defense mechanism used by trauma survivors to remove themselves
2:16
Speaker 1: from a threatening situation within their own minds. Again, I
2:20
Speaker 1: may use the term interchangeably, but will work really hard
2:23
Speaker 1: to use the correct term in relation to our topic.
2:28
Speaker 1: Go ahead and with that out there, because I know
2:29
Speaker 1: people are gonna be like, but you didn't say the
2:31
Speaker 1: right word. I know I'm trying to going to be
2:36
Speaker 1: a struggle, but we're going to do our best. Yes.
2:40
Speaker 1: I actually texted Annie as we were working on this
2:43
Speaker 1: episode because I was like, I just went down and y'all,
2:47
Speaker 1: not only did I go down an our links of
2:51
Speaker 1: the rabbit hole, because I sat here and stared. I
2:53
Speaker 1: couldn't even figure it out because it kept correcting auto
2:55
Speaker 1: correcting me when I was putting disassociation for dissociation and
3:00
Speaker 1: I kept saying, no, there's not enough syllables. Wait, there's
3:02
Speaker 1: not enough letters to be made this word. What is
3:04
Speaker 1: what is happening? Really? I dissociated At that point in time.
3:10
Speaker 1: I had to have my partner come and look at
3:11
Speaker 1: the word for me. I'm like, what is this word? Right?
3:17
Speaker 1: And finally figured it out. But it took me a
3:19
Speaker 1: good hour into this to figure this out. And I
3:22
Speaker 1: finally had a breakdown and sent you this text. Was like,
3:24
Speaker 1: oh my god, my mind is finally fried. This is
3:30
Speaker 1: the one that did it. But with that, also, we
3:35
Speaker 1: want to put a content warning here. We are going
3:37
Speaker 1: to talk about a bit about trauma, sexual and physical assault,
3:41
Speaker 1: and a childhood abuse as well as abuse in general.
3:44
Speaker 1: So if that's something you don't want to dig too
3:46
Speaker 1: deeply into, you may want to skip this episode for now.
3:49
Speaker 1: Because when it comes to dissociation, there's a lot of
3:53
Speaker 1: correlation to other UH diagnosis such as anxiety, depression and PTSD.
3:59
Speaker 1: So if that's something that you're not ready to go through,
4:02
Speaker 1: put a pause on it and come back. But we're
4:05
Speaker 1: not going into specific cases. We're going to just mention
4:08
Speaker 1: studies and what their studies look like. Yeah, and it's
4:13
Speaker 1: it can be. I'm going to put this out here.
4:16
Speaker 1: It can be surprisingly triggering actually because I I knew
4:21
Speaker 1: about this. I thought about it before UH and I
4:25
Speaker 1: found myself like getting upset thinking about it. So just
4:31
Speaker 1: be very careful for sure, especially when you realize that
4:36
Speaker 1: the story is about me. This is definitely oh I
4:42
Speaker 1: I don't want to put that. But yeah, as you
4:47
Speaker 1: like the like we we laughed because you like some
4:51
Speaker 1: dramatic movies to be I'm like, what are you doing
4:53
Speaker 1: to yourself? You're like, but it's got so many emotions,
4:57
Speaker 1: but you love it and I'm on it and I'm like,
4:59
Speaker 1: oh hell no, I'm good. Why did you do this
5:02
Speaker 1: to me? UH studies like this where I discovered an
5:05
Speaker 1: explanation of what I've done makes me go oh as
5:08
Speaker 1: where other people like, no, this is this to me? Yeah,
5:12
Speaker 1: you're exactly, but also traumatizing still, but also traumasizing still.
5:17
Speaker 1: I mean, it is good to know, like I found
5:18
Speaker 1: it very It's good information, but it is certainly something
5:22
Speaker 1: where I was just like suddenly crying when I was
5:24
Speaker 1: walking the other day, like, oh my god, what is happening?
5:29
Speaker 1: What is happening? Yes, I get that. Okay. So now
5:33
Speaker 1: that we've given our content warning, we've summarized definition. What
5:37
Speaker 1: exactly is dissociation? Well, according to medicine net dot com,
5:42
Speaker 1: it is a quote perceived detachment of the mind from
5:44
Speaker 1: the emotional state or even from the body. Dissociation is
5:48
Speaker 1: characterized by a sense of the world as a dream
5:50
Speaker 1: like or unreal place, and maybe accompanied by poor memory
5:53
Speaker 1: of specific events. Um, and here's another one from better
5:57
Speaker 1: help dot com. Dissociation is the process whereby an individual
6:01
Speaker 1: feels disconnected or begin to disconnect from their memories, emotions, thoughts, feelings,
6:05
Speaker 1: and even their identity. And if you want it more clinically,
6:09
Speaker 1: which you know we do, here are the four different
6:13
Speaker 1: types of dissociative disorders according to psychiatry dot org. Right,
6:17
Speaker 1: let's start off with Biggie dissociative identity disorder or d
6:20
Speaker 1: i D, which is associated with overwhelming experiences, traumatic events,
6:25
Speaker 1: and or abuse that occurred in childhood. Now, this specific
6:28
Speaker 1: disorder is the more again dramatized one, I guess, and
6:31
Speaker 1: was previously known as multiple personality disorders. And I know
6:35
Speaker 1: a lot of like Crime TV loves to use this
6:39
Speaker 1: um and it is controversial because there's definitely a back
6:42
Speaker 1: and forth about belief and acting. There's a lot of conversation.
6:46
Speaker 1: And some criteria for dis diagnosis from psychiatry dot org
6:50
Speaker 1: include the existence of two or more distinct identities or
6:54
Speaker 1: personality states. The distinct identities are accompanied by changes in behavior, memory,
6:59
Speaker 1: and thinking. The signs and symptoms may be observed by
7:02
Speaker 1: others or reported by the individual, ongoing gaps in memory
7:07
Speaker 1: about everyday events, personal information, and or past traumatic events,
7:11
Speaker 1: and the symptoms cause significant distress or problems in social, occupational,
7:15
Speaker 1: or other areas of functioning. Hello Moon night. Um. And
7:20
Speaker 1: though more women are diagnosed with this disorder than men,
7:23
Speaker 1: and I didn't actually know that until I was researching this,
7:27
Speaker 1: but that may have something to do with how false
7:29
Speaker 1: diagnosis happens with men, and we've talked about this before,
7:33
Speaker 1: um how it might look differently from men, or they
7:35
Speaker 1: may not report all of the symptoms. This might be
7:38
Speaker 1: why the numbers are so drastically higher with women. But
7:41
Speaker 1: we're not going to dig too deep into this specific disorder.
7:45
Speaker 1: Would probably be another episode on its own, because we
7:48
Speaker 1: can talk about specific cases and conversations. Again, though, we
7:52
Speaker 1: are just generically talking about dissociation, so we're not necessarily
7:57
Speaker 1: talking about specifics in itself, but specifically, I know a
8:00
Speaker 1: lot of people be like, oh, we're not getting into
8:02
Speaker 1: this one, so yeah, not today, not today, not today.
8:07
Speaker 1: But we do want to talk about the other types
8:09
Speaker 1: of dissociation, including dissociative amnesia and fugue and depersonalization disorder.
8:15
Speaker 1: So dissociative amnesia, and this is coming from NAMMY, our
8:19
Speaker 1: National Alliance of Mental Illness, includes the main symptom of quote,
8:23
Speaker 1: difficulty remembering important information about oneself and may surround a
8:27
Speaker 1: particular event such as combat or abuse. Are more rarely
8:31
Speaker 1: information about identity and life history. And with that quote,
8:35
Speaker 1: there is no average for age, onset or percentage and
8:39
Speaker 1: a person may experience multiple episodes throughout her life, and
8:44
Speaker 1: within this category, there are four different types of amnesia
8:48
Speaker 1: and seeing a pattern. Localized quote for a time has
8:51
Speaker 1: no memory of a traumatic event. Selective, which is when
8:54
Speaker 1: someone has quote patchy or incomplete memories surrounding a traumatic event. Generalized,
8:59
Speaker 1: which refers to when someone has trouble remembering details of
9:02
Speaker 1: their quote entire life. It felt weird to quote. It
9:05
Speaker 1: was a quote, but it felt strange. Systemized, which is
9:10
Speaker 1: when someone has a very specific memory loss, like maybe
9:13
Speaker 1: a person um. And then dissociative fugue, which is also
9:18
Speaker 1: called psychogenic fugue, is from Better Health Quote the person
9:24
Speaker 1: suddenly and without any warning, can't remember who they are
9:27
Speaker 1: and has no memory of their past. They don't realize
9:29
Speaker 1: they're experiencing memory loss and may invent a new identity. Right.
9:33
Speaker 1: I think that's lesser talked about, possibly because it's rare
9:37
Speaker 1: um kind of like this upcoming one that we're going
9:39
Speaker 1: to talk about, which is the depersonalization of disorder. Again
9:42
Speaker 1: from NAMI, it says quote involves ongoing feelings of detachment
9:47
Speaker 1: from actions, feelings, thoughts, and sensations, as if they're watching
9:50
Speaker 1: a movie or depersonalization. Sometimes other people and things may
9:54
Speaker 1: feel like people and things in the world around them
9:56
Speaker 1: are unreal, which is also de realization, which is a
9:59
Speaker 1: part of that how it goes interchangeably, A person may
10:02
Speaker 1: experience the personalization, deualization, or both. The average onset age
10:07
Speaker 1: for this it was around age sixteen, uh, though can
10:10
Speaker 1: start much younger, like an early to mid childhood. You
10:13
Speaker 1: don't see this typically for those twenty years and older.
10:17
Speaker 1: The only of the people are diagnosed at the age
10:20
Speaker 1: of twenty or older. So that's definitely seen in younger childhood.
10:24
Speaker 1: So I think that's something to know. Again, Like I said,
10:26
Speaker 1: when we talk about it, this is a little more
10:28
Speaker 1: rare outside of d I D which we talked about earlier. Um,
10:33
Speaker 1: but because of it seemingly happens more likely hit in childhood.
10:39
Speaker 1: As one study puts it, dissociation is a complex trans
10:42
Speaker 1: diagnostic phenomenon which comprises a wide range of symptoms. It
10:46
Speaker 1: is broadly defined as a discontinuity or disruption of usually
10:49
Speaker 1: integrated functions such as consciousness, perception, attention, memory, and identity.
10:55
Speaker 1: Psychological symptoms include subjective detachment from the own person, deep personalization,
11:00
Speaker 1: or the environment de realization, which may be perceived as unreal,
11:04
Speaker 1: blurry movie like, or lacking significance. Memory disruptions can range
11:09
Speaker 1: from a diminished ability to access normally amenable information to
11:12
Speaker 1: dissociative amnesia. Right, So when we were looking into the study,
11:18
Speaker 1: there's a lot of variations, so I feel like that
11:20
Speaker 1: should be on a spectrum as well. Um, when we
11:24
Speaker 1: talk about diagnosis, and again we probably need to come back,
11:28
Speaker 1: and we will come back, because I think this is
11:29
Speaker 1: really important talking about the double edged sort of diagnosing someone.
11:33
Speaker 1: It's good and bad, but there's a lot of complications
11:37
Speaker 1: to this specific disorders and the types of disorders because
11:40
Speaker 1: it can be ranging. You can't grow out of it,
11:43
Speaker 1: as some people would say, and you can change, uh,
11:46
Speaker 1: and you can get treatment and it's different. But yeah,
11:49
Speaker 1: that that one specific paragraph from a study really did
11:53
Speaker 1: kind of put it together, like, Okay, here we are,
11:55
Speaker 1: this is the overarching this is what we're looking at.
11:58
Speaker 1: So it's good to remember that it is kind of
12:00
Speaker 1: level of spectrum of like it can be one of
12:01
Speaker 1: these things, it could be all of these things, and
12:03
Speaker 1: it could be sometimes not all the time. So now
12:06
Speaker 1: let's take a look at how this affects women with trauma,
12:09
Speaker 1: and this is what we're going to focus on, y'all.
12:11
Speaker 1: So what are the correlations of women with trauma and dissociation?
12:15
Speaker 1: As we spoke about a bit earlier, women are more
12:17
Speaker 1: likely to be diagnosed over men. Again, much like many
12:20
Speaker 1: other situations we've talked about in regards to diagnosis, in
12:23
Speaker 1: the accuracies of these studies could be misleading, as many
12:26
Speaker 1: men in these studies either deny their symptoms or misidentify
12:30
Speaker 1: their symptoms, such as instead of nieta or checking out.
12:32
Speaker 1: Men are volatile and angry, so they may black out
12:35
Speaker 1: angry and they misdiagnosed that. And by the way, I've
12:39
Speaker 1: been there to um, so that may be a misdiagnosis
12:44
Speaker 1: of like having rage or just angry issues, alcoholism, all
12:47
Speaker 1: of those things I did. We don't mention it at all,
12:50
Speaker 1: but I will put in here. Um, there wasn't a
12:53
Speaker 1: high correlation of drug use and substance abuse with dissociation,
12:57
Speaker 1: oddly enough, so it wasn't necessarily like they associated and
13:01
Speaker 1: become an alcoholic, you know what I mean. Maybe the
13:03
Speaker 1: other was an outcome due to whatever uh they're using,
13:07
Speaker 1: but that's not necessarily this level of dissociation, so just
13:11
Speaker 1: to put in there, but nonetheless, the difference in the
13:14
Speaker 1: results is pretty significant. According to one study in regards
13:17
Speaker 1: to women and trauma with dissociative disorders, women were twice
13:20
Speaker 1: as likely to achieve high scores on the dissociatives Experienced skill,
13:25
Speaker 1: which was a measurement used in any of the story
13:27
Speaker 1: studies in regards to dissociation and dissociative disorders. And this
13:32
Speaker 1: specific study we're talking about was completed in two thousand
13:35
Speaker 1: five and it was titled Prevalence of the Dissociative Disorders
13:38
Speaker 1: among Women in the general population. And in that same study,
13:41
Speaker 1: quote female to male ratio of nine to one has
13:44
Speaker 1: been reported in a clinical series of dissociative disorders. So
13:47
Speaker 1: that was pretty big numbers. Again, it may have everything
13:51
Speaker 1: to do with that they were looking at specific traumas,
13:53
Speaker 1: but this was in the general population and women in general.
13:57
Speaker 1: So and within that same study, those who were diagnosed
13:59
Speaker 1: with this those of disorders quote reported all types of
14:02
Speaker 1: childhood abuse and neglect more frequently than did non dissociative women.
14:06
Speaker 1: And beyond that, quote, sexual abuse, physical neglect, and emotional
14:10
Speaker 1: abuse predicted a dissociative disorder right, Because dissociation oftentimes is
14:28
Speaker 1: linked with trauma, we see a lot of quote co
14:31
Speaker 1: morbidities such as PTSD and depression. In a study based
14:35
Speaker 1: on rape survivors in South Africa, they looked at the
14:38
Speaker 1: correlation of PTSD and trauma, dissociation and resilience. Within that study,
14:43
Speaker 1: they found quote dissociation following trauma may be used as
14:47
Speaker 1: a coping defense mechanism when confronted with future traumatic events.
14:51
Speaker 1: This suggests that past association e g. Following exposure to
14:54
Speaker 1: childhood trauma can increase the likelihood of a dissociative response
14:58
Speaker 1: with future trauma and dissociation it may become a form
15:01
Speaker 1: of resilience for immediate coping uh And just to know,
15:06
Speaker 1: this study was not necessarily about dissociation as being positive
15:09
Speaker 1: or negative defense mechanism, but more so that it may
15:12
Speaker 1: be a way of predicting PTSD and other disorders and
15:15
Speaker 1: how to build resilience and treatment for survivors. And another
15:19
Speaker 1: interesting and for me, unexpected finding was that they quote
15:22
Speaker 1: did not find a significant relationship between childhood trauma and disassociation,
15:26
Speaker 1: PTSD and depression. This finding is in contrast with the
15:29
Speaker 1: previous findings, so this one was a little different said wait, wait, wait,
15:34
Speaker 1: it may not have anything to do with this, but
15:36
Speaker 1: does go on with a possible explanation, saying, quote, it
15:39
Speaker 1: is possible that the endemic problem of child abuse in
15:42
Speaker 1: South Africa, in the context of daily exposure to violent
15:45
Speaker 1: crime and social economic disadvantage, contribute to building resilience rather
15:50
Speaker 1: than fostering maladaptive coping mechanisms. For example, dissociation resilience may
15:56
Speaker 1: be strengthened by sharing of common traumatic experiences. It's been
16:00
Speaker 1: suggested that childhood trauma survivors develop more effective coping strategies
16:04
Speaker 1: if they successfully resolve and integrate the trauma, leading to
16:07
Speaker 1: greater resilience and a lower risk of developing PTSD. Now
16:13
Speaker 1: let's go ahead and put in here. Yes, the study
16:15
Speaker 1: was in South Africa. We're I don't know where they
16:18
Speaker 1: were in South Africa because we know that this seems
16:20
Speaker 1: very like stereotyping of South Africa in some of the comments.
16:25
Speaker 1: This is a funny sifting study, but it may have
16:27
Speaker 1: something to do when they went to the population that
16:29
Speaker 1: had the most trauma to do this study. So I
16:33
Speaker 1: just want to put that in a reminder. Um. But
16:36
Speaker 1: the same thing he does go on to conclude that quote,
16:38
Speaker 1: traumatic dissociation at two weeks post rape was a significant
16:42
Speaker 1: predictor of early PTSD and depression, but not resilience, early
16:46
Speaker 1: childhood trauma or prior dissociation. Dissociation at a specific time
16:50
Speaker 1: point related to specific trauma was therefore predictive of PTSD,
16:54
Speaker 1: s D and depression among female rape survivors, and not
16:57
Speaker 1: childhood traumas or prior tendency to dissociate. So the level
17:02
Speaker 1: is when did it happen? Was it based on child
17:04
Speaker 1: and trauma? Not necessarily, dissociation was a mediator in the
17:08
Speaker 1: relationship between a resilience and PTSD, And these findings highlight
17:12
Speaker 1: the importance of screening for traumatic dissociation and early and
17:15
Speaker 1: intervention among female rape survivors. So there's a lot of
17:19
Speaker 1: conversation about Yes, so childhood trauma may not have as
17:22
Speaker 1: much to do with it as much as current levels
17:24
Speaker 1: of the associative disorders that it has happened. So I
17:28
Speaker 1: found that interesting, But a lot of confusion, a lot
17:31
Speaker 1: of in and ounce, a little bit conflicting. One study
17:33
Speaker 1: was two thousand and five, the other study was twenty,
17:36
Speaker 1: but it was in different places. So yeah, questions yeah,
17:41
Speaker 1: questions indeed, and a specific study completed in the US
17:45
Speaker 1: and nine focusing on rape survivors as well, which, yes,
17:49
Speaker 1: this is a bit outdated, so need to be we
17:52
Speaker 1: need to take it with a grain of salt. But
17:55
Speaker 1: there were some things in there we thought were interesting.
17:57
Speaker 1: One is the seven major function of dissociation, which are
18:02
Speaker 1: number one, the automization of certain behaviors to efficiency and
18:07
Speaker 1: economy of effort. Three the resolution of irreconcilable conflicts for
18:12
Speaker 1: escape from constraints of reality UH, five the isolation of
18:16
Speaker 1: catastrophic experiences, six the cathartic discharge of certain feelings, and
18:21
Speaker 1: seven the enhancement of herd sense or the one identity
18:25
Speaker 1: going to a group identity. And to that they added
18:29
Speaker 1: the ability to ignore pain. And specifically, for this study,
18:33
Speaker 1: they wanted to take a deeper look at when victims
18:36
Speaker 1: would make statements like feeling as if they were having
18:38
Speaker 1: an out of body experience UM during their assaults and
18:42
Speaker 1: investigate dissociation for women who have been victims of sexual
18:45
Speaker 1: violence and its relation to PTSD. Unfortunately, though, they were
18:49
Speaker 1: able to look at the correlation of some of the
18:52
Speaker 1: cases of PTSD to dissociation and how to predict and
18:55
Speaker 1: possibly treat PTSD with other comorbidity ease. But due to
18:59
Speaker 1: the type of study being traumatic as well as not
19:02
Speaker 1: getting enough volunteers, they didn't get a lot of information
19:05
Speaker 1: from all of this. Right, So again, this was one
19:08
Speaker 1: of the first studies that happened based on the association
19:12
Speaker 1: trauma and rape survivors. They had very little information, so
19:17
Speaker 1: they put in there the questionnaires that used Obviously that's
19:20
Speaker 1: outdated as well now, um, and there's a lot of
19:22
Speaker 1: conversations about this. They use the term engender a lot
19:26
Speaker 1: um So there's a lot of different things that happened
19:28
Speaker 1: in the study, but they couldn't get the amount of
19:31
Speaker 1: information they needed to really have a good study. Now,
19:33
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, they still pay published like thirty
19:35
Speaker 1: pages worth of conversation and trying to do a scale
19:39
Speaker 1: and trying to do a measurement, and they were able
19:41
Speaker 1: to get a few things here and there, just kind
19:43
Speaker 1: of like overall, uh, conversations, but they weren't getting able
19:47
Speaker 1: to get solid numbers, and I don't think they were
19:49
Speaker 1: comfortable in coming out with results. So they said, this
19:52
Speaker 1: is what can happen, and this is how we can
19:53
Speaker 1: do a better job. In studying it for the future.
19:56
Speaker 1: But I think it's at least that they started somewhere.
19:59
Speaker 1: I can't believe it tick to though. Yeah, there's a
20:02
Speaker 1: lot of things, a lot of studies, especially involving women,
20:05
Speaker 1: where I'm like, really, right, interesting, Okay, cool um, And
20:11
Speaker 1: just a reminder, as we are talking in relation to
20:13
Speaker 1: women and trauma, and this can include veterans and combat
20:17
Speaker 1: and soldiers and warriors and those who have gone through like, uh,
20:22
Speaker 1: natural disasters, large disasters, all that, we're not talking about
20:26
Speaker 1: that right now, and we're not trying to exclude them
20:28
Speaker 1: on purpose, but we're just really kind of focusing specific
20:30
Speaker 1: to women's trauma when it comes to things like sexual assault,
20:33
Speaker 1: violence and abuse. Again, we might come back to that,
20:36
Speaker 1: but this is very very specific to this, right, which
20:40
Speaker 1: is why you won't hear us mention it. But just
20:41
Speaker 1: you know, just so you know, we do we are
20:43
Speaker 1: aware that that can be a factor. They do talk
20:45
Speaker 1: about it some, but these are the specific studies that
20:47
Speaker 1: we wanted to look at. And as we were looking
20:50
Speaker 1: into these different studies, we stumbled upon specific triggers or
20:53
Speaker 1: trauma triggers related to dissociation. So we actually got a
20:56
Speaker 1: list from Safe Supportive Learning dot A d dot gov.
21:00
Speaker 1: So we did want to talk about that a little
21:02
Speaker 1: bit because I will say, this is the part that
21:05
Speaker 1: I may have been a little bit triggered by because
21:06
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, that's that's familiar with what do
21:09
Speaker 1: with that? But we did want to talk about it
21:10
Speaker 1: because I think it's it's important because we don't always
21:13
Speaker 1: think about the deeper. We just think about a few
21:16
Speaker 1: like this is. Oh, I didn't realize that could be
21:18
Speaker 1: related to this kind of thing, So we wanted to
21:20
Speaker 1: kind of talk about that. UM And according to another
21:23
Speaker 1: case study here, which is what they uses for, we
21:26
Speaker 1: are talking about triggers. So we're talking about quote, sensory
21:29
Speaker 1: stimuli connected with persons trauma and dissociation as an overload response.
21:35
Speaker 1: So some of the triggers may include darkness. Uh so
21:39
Speaker 1: sitting in darkness, specific smells, colors. For me, taste is
21:43
Speaker 1: one of the big ones since of being ignored, which
21:46
Speaker 1: actually as a person who has abandonment issues, it does
21:50
Speaker 1: aggressive behavior, loud noises, and again this is kind of
21:54
Speaker 1: combat conversation, like people who have gone through war or
21:58
Speaker 1: been in warlike situations, natural disasters, all of that. UM
22:03
Speaker 1: anniversaries even and so much more. Yeah, I'm a big
22:08
Speaker 1: anniversary person. And with that, here are some signs of
22:12
Speaker 1: distress and responses. Emotional response like anxiety, fear, helplessness, or anger,
22:18
Speaker 1: Physical such as holding one's breath, headaches, nausea, sweating, stomach aches,
22:22
Speaker 1: behaviorals such as crying, spacing out, being startled, being argumentative,
22:27
Speaker 1: Cognitive such as fragmented memories, forgetfulness, inability to decide, or
22:31
Speaker 1: inability to respond right, And I think like when I
22:36
Speaker 1: talk about inability to decide, that's a huge one. I've
22:39
Speaker 1: seen people have melt downs because there are scared to
22:42
Speaker 1: death that are going to make a wrong choice. So
22:45
Speaker 1: I feel like this is one of those big was
22:46
Speaker 1: and not realize why it's so bothers them for them. Yeah,
22:50
Speaker 1: I agree. And in these triggers and reactions, dissociation helps
22:55
Speaker 1: to hide feelings and reactions as you mentioned earlier, and
22:58
Speaker 1: can look like someone who has just sponing some thing
23:01
Speaker 1: so they don't have to deal with the feelings or
23:02
Speaker 1: emotions to Also, being completely non responsive and when used
23:08
Speaker 1: in the short term, can be helpful and even can
23:11
Speaker 1: help react efficiently under stress or threat, but the overall response,
23:15
Speaker 1: if constant, can cause people to detach or even harden
23:18
Speaker 1: their emotions and be unable to connect with people. Right,
23:22
Speaker 1: And we are talking so much about this, and again
23:25
Speaker 1: we came into this, uh talking having a moment as
23:28
Speaker 1: a you and I any about something that we were like, oh,
23:32
Speaker 1: this is a bigger conversation about our trauma and then
23:35
Speaker 1: go back to our trauma series where it all began. Um.
23:39
Speaker 1: But you can hear what we're talking about and some
23:41
Speaker 1: of the experiences that we went through and realizing what
23:43
Speaker 1: this is and what this was. And I actually had
23:46
Speaker 1: a moment with my therapist that got a new therapists
23:48
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've told you this yet who
23:51
Speaker 1: is more in line to my transracial adoption issues as
23:54
Speaker 1: well as identity, which is wonderful. But she did have
23:58
Speaker 1: a moment asked me do you dissociate? And my ommuniates no,
24:02
Speaker 1: not really um. But then as she's asking me how
24:06
Speaker 1: I react to so, I had a panic attack. A
24:09
Speaker 1: lot of life changes is happening for me right now,
24:11
Speaker 1: and I had a panic attack in that moment, uh,
24:14
Speaker 1: feeling unsteady, and I was like, She's like, what do
24:16
Speaker 1: you do? And in order to not go into the
24:19
Speaker 1: full blown panic attack, and I say, we'll have to
24:22
Speaker 1: do a B, C and D, which includes meat laying
24:24
Speaker 1: down and or stopping and just putting my like distracting
24:28
Speaker 1: myself from that moment um and realizing when I was uh,
24:34
Speaker 1: when I do have full blown panic attacks, which I
24:37
Speaker 1: did not realize. In my anxiety, I go blurry and
24:42
Speaker 1: I fade and I can't hear people like everything, Like
24:46
Speaker 1: she asked me, what happens, everything kind of goes out
24:49
Speaker 1: and that blurry feeling of like I'm not actually here
24:52
Speaker 1: and can't be present is very real. And I was like, oh,
24:57
Speaker 1: that's association. Big a realization that I really didn't think
25:02
Speaker 1: that was something that I did, but it is one
25:04
Speaker 1: of my trauma responses in which I was like, Okay,
25:07
Speaker 1: there's one. I talked about the fact that I have
25:11
Speaker 1: when I get so stressed out and overwhelmed, I don't
25:16
Speaker 1: remember and sometimes I get cruel. So this angry this
25:19
Speaker 1: is what I talked about. When I get angry and cruel,
25:21
Speaker 1: I don't realize that I've said things out loud. I've
25:23
Speaker 1: actually been called out by a friend who was like,
25:26
Speaker 1: so can we talk about the other day And I
25:28
Speaker 1: was like, what are you talking about? She's like, you
25:29
Speaker 1: said this to me. I was like, no, I didn't.
25:32
Speaker 1: I was like, and I had to admit I thought it,
25:36
Speaker 1: but I would never say that out loud, and she
25:38
Speaker 1: was like, you did. And I literally cannot place that conversation.
25:44
Speaker 1: I don't know where we were, I don't know what happened,
25:47
Speaker 1: and I had of course, it came back with a
25:48
Speaker 1: profuse I am so sorry because obviously if she she
25:51
Speaker 1: can't read my mind, I had to have said it
25:53
Speaker 1: out loud, so I had to profusely or apologize. But
25:58
Speaker 1: having that moment of like, wow, oh wow, I was
26:01
Speaker 1: trying to cut you out, like not purposely, but because
26:03
Speaker 1: we were getting We're close, and sometimes I have a
26:06
Speaker 1: panic moment when I get too close to people that
26:08
Speaker 1: I was like, whoa that was I'm so sorry. I
26:13
Speaker 1: did not mean it was very cruel and I'm so
26:15
Speaker 1: sorry I said that out loud to you, which, of course,
26:18
Speaker 1: like we were able to bypass if I thought it.
26:20
Speaker 1: But but there were so many moments of realizing I
26:27
Speaker 1: actually do this, and I didn't realize and I would
26:31
Speaker 1: never because in my head, dissociation is such a bigger
26:34
Speaker 1: category like the D I d S what I think
26:36
Speaker 1: of or completely blacking out or or moon night, like
26:40
Speaker 1: that's exactly what I would have associate that with. But
26:43
Speaker 1: that level of trauma was like oh, and also I
26:45
Speaker 1: could see it in other people because this is how
26:48
Speaker 1: it began because I kind of said that to you.
26:49
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, you dissociate and you were like what, Yeah,
26:51
Speaker 1: I guess and I was like, you did. I'm sorry.
26:56
Speaker 1: Can we do this into that episode pretty much back?
27:03
Speaker 1: But yeah, having a moment like it happens to me too?
27:05
Speaker 1: And then where do we look at this list of
27:08
Speaker 1: triggers and reactions? And in here um for anyone who
27:11
Speaker 1: actually wants this link or goes to find this link,
27:14
Speaker 1: just so you know, there is a descriptor at the
27:16
Speaker 1: bottom of a case study of a sexual assault UH
27:19
Speaker 1: and a child abuse UH survivor. So that might be
27:22
Speaker 1: triggering and you might not want to read into that,
27:24
Speaker 1: but it does kind of have a breakdown about how
27:26
Speaker 1: she reacts to UH what how that it is explained
27:31
Speaker 1: as dissociative, but it really was so similar to like
27:36
Speaker 1: I do that. I do that the whole headaches, the
27:38
Speaker 1: holding of my breath. I don't realize to do it
27:41
Speaker 1: until I can't. I'm like, oh, what's just happened? Until
27:43
Speaker 1: I'm almost con um or that's a reaction to a trigger.
27:48
Speaker 1: As well as I have fragmented memories of my childhood,
27:52
Speaker 1: I have, I completely dissociate, I cannot remember. Of course,
27:55
Speaker 1: I may have something to do with the fact that
27:58
Speaker 1: a lot of our childhood memories not do our correlated
28:01
Speaker 1: with what we remember, but what people tell us to
28:03
Speaker 1: which those pictures and celebrations, and do you remember this
28:06
Speaker 1: so it keeps it in your mind. I don't have
28:09
Speaker 1: that because I don't have any connection to anyone, uh,
28:12
Speaker 1: when I was seven or younger. But that tells me
28:15
Speaker 1: a lot and that I honestly can't remember anything, like
28:20
Speaker 1: I can't remember people. I can't remember, not even just
28:23
Speaker 1: remember faces, but the existence of people or the existence
28:26
Speaker 1: of time. I can't tell you other than like the
28:29
Speaker 1: fogginess of it all. But there's a lot of things
28:31
Speaker 1: that made me go, huh, okay, I guess if we
28:35
Speaker 1: really were to look at the textbook, but which which
28:38
Speaker 1: is what we're looking at? Research of it? I have
28:41
Speaker 1: a sort of associative disorder in that realm? Now is it?
28:45
Speaker 1: Could I be necessarily diagnosed with that? Right now? I
28:49
Speaker 1: don't know, because I've not had quote unquote episodes of
28:52
Speaker 1: anything or symptoms of it anything recently. Yeah. I mean
29:09
Speaker 1: it's interesting because I was like you where I had
29:11
Speaker 1: sort of the bigger image that we see in media
29:15
Speaker 1: of what this is. But it was one of those
29:19
Speaker 1: things where I was reading over this and I was like, Okay,
29:21
Speaker 1: well then I've already talked about this on the show.
29:25
Speaker 1: Because that's how like my memories. When I read that
29:29
Speaker 1: fiction story of like the knocking on the door, I
29:31
Speaker 1: literally created another version of me where that didn't happen,
29:35
Speaker 1: and I became so destabilized when my mom mentioned in
29:39
Speaker 1: passing something that threatened that false reality that I had created,
29:44
Speaker 1: right that it's like I don't even remember how I
29:48
Speaker 1: got home when she after she said that, I just
29:51
Speaker 1: was like I stopped and then hours passed like I
29:56
Speaker 1: don't And so I definitely created the things. If I
30:00
Speaker 1: try to remember, because this was like my traumatic period
30:04
Speaker 1: in high school, I created this version where that didn't happen.
30:06
Speaker 1: If I try to remember what actually did happen, it's
30:09
Speaker 1: like someone slams the door and it goes dark, Like
30:11
Speaker 1: my brain is like, no, we're not going to think
30:13
Speaker 1: about that we're never going to think about that, and
30:15
Speaker 1: I don't know why you want to be right, And
30:18
Speaker 1: that's been my one of my biggest things in therapy
30:21
Speaker 1: is I'm avoiding it in therapy, but every time, like
30:25
Speaker 1: we try to do it, my brain is like, no,
30:28
Speaker 1: we're not doing this, and it's become really I'm kind
30:31
Speaker 1: of going through a similar destabilizing period right now where
30:34
Speaker 1: I'm like questioning the everything I've thought to be true
30:39
Speaker 1: and whether or not it's true. And that actually started
30:41
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the pandemic because a good friend
30:43
Speaker 1: of ours I told him we were having like a
30:45
Speaker 1: very heart to heart moment and I told him like,
30:47
Speaker 1: I'm worried. I'm worried everything I think is false and
30:52
Speaker 1: everything I am as false, and that that's what people
30:55
Speaker 1: are going to remember is that I was just fake
30:57
Speaker 1: because I have these memories that I know aren't true,
30:59
Speaker 1: and I have other memories I can't remember, So it
31:02
Speaker 1: just it gives it it's very hard to convince yourself
31:06
Speaker 1: of like the truth, and that can become very important,
31:11
Speaker 1: um because memories can get really messy. But he wrote
31:14
Speaker 1: very kind. It sounds messed up, but he wrote a
31:16
Speaker 1: very nice you as I did, I was, well, no,
31:22
Speaker 1: I was just kind of saying, like what old people saying.
31:24
Speaker 1: My eulogenie was like, here's so it's not just like
31:28
Speaker 1: you're dead. But no, yeah, I think this is a
31:31
Speaker 1: conversation where I feel the same way about my childhood.
31:35
Speaker 1: I am petrified because the things that I feel like
31:38
Speaker 1: I do remember I may have made up because I
31:41
Speaker 1: don't know for sure. There's not no evidence outside of
31:44
Speaker 1: my triggers, my reactions to things, my body just being
31:47
Speaker 1: like nope, that made me think this had to have happened,
31:50
Speaker 1: because these are the memberies that have and this is
31:52
Speaker 1: how my body reacts to Therefore, but I don't want
31:56
Speaker 1: to say that loud because I maybe lying and people
31:57
Speaker 1: are not gonna believe me, and so I I lessen
32:01
Speaker 1: it in order to nonsensationalize it. And I don't want
32:05
Speaker 1: to be called a liar and that couldn't have happened
32:08
Speaker 1: type of conversation. But like, but these are the things
32:10
Speaker 1: that I remember. This is the reason why that the evidence. Honestly,
32:14
Speaker 1: one of the biggest triggers that I've had studying social
32:18
Speaker 1: work is when we talked about reactions and types of
32:21
Speaker 1: diagnosis and types of symptoms essentially, or or statements that
32:26
Speaker 1: are like yeah, you maybe these are things me having
32:30
Speaker 1: that is that's me. And so having those moments, having
32:33
Speaker 1: that moment like did this happen to me type of
32:35
Speaker 1: conversation because I can't remember it. I just know it
32:38
Speaker 1: was traumatic, and it was traumatic enough that I shut
32:41
Speaker 1: it down. I cannot remember except for two things to
32:45
Speaker 1: a few things here and there that I shut it
32:47
Speaker 1: down so hard. Um, but I can tell you, like
32:52
Speaker 1: moments of feeling a man's gaze on me made me sick,
32:56
Speaker 1: uh and nauseous, like just staring looking at me maybe not,
33:00
Speaker 1: but then also feeling like they didn't want me like that,
33:03
Speaker 1: Like even when I talk about it, I get to
33:04
Speaker 1: you like just saying someone they don't actually want me
33:08
Speaker 1: to be here, I don't belong has been something that
33:10
Speaker 1: triggers me. And there's no necessarily like obviously I have
33:13
Speaker 1: abandonment issues. I was left in an orphanage, so so
33:16
Speaker 1: many layers to that, but there's so many moments that
33:18
Speaker 1: I'm like, but was it true? Was it as bad
33:21
Speaker 1: as I thought? Type of conversation in my head Because
33:25
Speaker 1: also there's a part of me that has that defensive
33:27
Speaker 1: of like I don't need to remember my body, my mind,
33:29
Speaker 1: my body shut it down for a reason. Let's leave
33:32
Speaker 1: it there. Yep, right, yeah, yeah, I I feel like mine.
33:39
Speaker 1: I mean again, we're seeing all these kind of media representations.
33:43
Speaker 1: I definitely have like the movie remember, I remember the
33:45
Speaker 1: things I can remember from a third person, right, and
33:48
Speaker 1: she feels like a different person to me, which is
33:50
Speaker 1: part of why I created that story. But it is
33:52
Speaker 1: like it's the slamming of the door. I feel like
33:54
Speaker 1: I have the memories of my brain is like, we're
33:56
Speaker 1: not going in that door. We are not going in
33:58
Speaker 1: there is bad news is And then I definitely had
34:02
Speaker 1: like the blacking out I had when I was kind
34:04
Speaker 1: of at the height of this, a friend of mine
34:05
Speaker 1: pulled my ponytail. I don't know what happened, but I
34:09
Speaker 1: got like sent to the princip's principal's office. I was
34:12
Speaker 1: blacked out. Um, and so a lot of this, yeah,
34:16
Speaker 1: I was just connecting to. And then another thing when
34:19
Speaker 1: I was I was taking my morning walk, I had
34:21
Speaker 1: just watched the newest episode of Moon Night, which I'm
34:24
Speaker 1: not even talking about the whole thing that's going on there.
34:26
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the abuse that happened, um, and I
34:30
Speaker 1: started crying, and I was like, what if there can
34:32
Speaker 1: be no Sinnaben role? What if everyone's right? Oh my god.
34:36
Speaker 1: But that was a big thing for me, was the fictional.
34:39
Speaker 1: I would just kind of sit in my room and think.
34:43
Speaker 1: And I know you all have heard this, You've heard
34:45
Speaker 1: me talk about this on the show, where it was
34:47
Speaker 1: just like I had to believe these things. I had
34:49
Speaker 1: to believe someone could go through this and come out
34:52
Speaker 1: the other side. Um. And that was a big it's
34:56
Speaker 1: it's it sounds so silly and I feel ridiculous, but
34:59
Speaker 1: that's I gotta said about this kind of like fiction
35:03
Speaker 1: all idea, because that's how that's another way I would
35:06
Speaker 1: do it, was I would be this person and that
35:08
Speaker 1: helped me feel like I had worth, um because I
35:12
Speaker 1: believe that they did. And that's the problem is that
35:17
Speaker 1: we fight with ourselves and it from where I'm hearing
35:22
Speaker 1: you that that's not ridiculous, that makes absolute sense. And
35:26
Speaker 1: it is a moment of like warning and processing that
35:29
Speaker 1: like if this is not true, then this is the
35:31
Speaker 1: correlation for me, right right? Um, And I think so
35:37
Speaker 1: many things that I'm hearing you say, and I'm hearing
35:39
Speaker 1: myself say is something that we hear in this conversation
35:42
Speaker 1: of sexual assault and sexual trauma. And I'm not saying
35:45
Speaker 1: like it's not true at all because we're speaking honestly,
35:49
Speaker 1: but of the like kind of it couldn't be that bad,
35:53
Speaker 1: or what if people don't believe me? Like we're saying
35:55
Speaker 1: a lot of that kind of stuff, um, which is
35:59
Speaker 1: a setting, but that is how I felt like. I
36:01
Speaker 1: just I also thought like, there's no evidence of a
36:05
Speaker 1: lot of this, so what if my mind just the
36:08
Speaker 1: one I said? Fun, like you start questioning yourself, right, um,
36:11
Speaker 1: even though they feel so true and you have those
36:15
Speaker 1: embody like emotional physical reactions, right, And that's exactly That's
36:20
Speaker 1: the thing, is like we can't control any of that,
36:22
Speaker 1: m h. And why would I why would we want? Right?
36:28
Speaker 1: I've had the moments where I've had to prepare people,
36:31
Speaker 1: so as I'm diving into my for me, my career
36:35
Speaker 1: and identity trying to kind of figure some things out. Again,
36:38
Speaker 1: my experience is a little different from some Like I know,
36:40
Speaker 1: a lot of adoptees were brought here as infants, so
36:43
Speaker 1: they don't necessarily know the association to or have an
36:46
Speaker 1: association to Korean flavors and like they have never tasted it,
36:50
Speaker 1: they've never remember they wouldn't remember it necessarily. Um. Again,
36:54
Speaker 1: there are several who have they were older. For me, UM,
36:58
Speaker 1: I have memories and taste and smell is such a
37:01
Speaker 1: trigger to me that as I'm trying this process, I
37:05
Speaker 1: had to wait till almost late I mean in late thirties,
37:07
Speaker 1: early forties for me to even be like I can
37:09
Speaker 1: do this. But I still come to the point of
37:12
Speaker 1: telling people, hey, this might happen to me as I'm
37:15
Speaker 1: preparing them, Like I might have a triggered moment, and
37:18
Speaker 1: I might just associate now that I know, like I
37:20
Speaker 1: might associate whether it's for me like just fogging and
37:23
Speaker 1: literally blanking and becoming unresponsive, which is what happens with
37:27
Speaker 1: the panic attack. I've become unresponsible, also can't breathe, but
37:30
Speaker 1: those are two different things. But I still don't remember
37:32
Speaker 1: what happens in that moment. Everything becomes foggy. Um. This
37:35
Speaker 1: is that same level ish where I have a react
37:40
Speaker 1: of visceral reaction that I can't control. UM. But I
37:47
Speaker 1: want to have those moments and try to find the
37:49
Speaker 1: good of it and reredo redo those moments and and
37:52
Speaker 1: enjoy it and it's not necessarily bad, but it just
37:55
Speaker 1: brings me back to a place that I felt unsafe
37:59
Speaker 1: even I can't tell you why. But yeah, there's so
38:02
Speaker 1: many things. And again, this is why I want to
38:05
Speaker 1: talk about it, because I also think this battle we
38:07
Speaker 1: have in ourselves and recognizing some of these things, we
38:10
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it as if we're victims.
38:14
Speaker 1: But it's also kind of a relief to know that, Okay,
38:18
Speaker 1: there's a name for this um what I want to
38:24
Speaker 1: be identified the associative disorder. No, because some would be like,
38:28
Speaker 1: do you have fifteen personalities? Which one are you now?
38:30
Speaker 1: Because that's the one we think of oftentimes even those
38:35
Speaker 1: the least likely. Honestly, like, there's not too many cases.
38:39
Speaker 1: There are, don't get me wrong, but they're still It's
38:41
Speaker 1: like it's not as common as people wanted me to
38:43
Speaker 1: get out to be, which is also why maybe this
38:45
Speaker 1: sensationalized because it is so different. But I think it's
38:48
Speaker 1: fascinating to talk about it because it does affect so
38:52
Speaker 1: many women dealing with daily life, dealing with relationships, like
38:56
Speaker 1: trying to be in dating and thinking that this is
38:58
Speaker 1: the normal, that's all they have to do and then
39:00
Speaker 1: therefore if they don't love every part of it, then
39:05
Speaker 1: there's something wrong. Um, and there are reasons but to
39:10
Speaker 1: this and for me, actually, I would use this what
39:13
Speaker 1: I would do as me saying I have this is
39:16
Speaker 1: my survivors instate, this is my you know, survivor mechanism,
39:22
Speaker 1: like this is what I have to do in order
39:23
Speaker 1: to survive. It's hard for me to let go of. Yeah,
39:28
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean that's probably what I would have
39:30
Speaker 1: before we did this and I knew what it was,
39:32
Speaker 1: I would have said that because it was something my brain,
39:35
Speaker 1: my brain and my body just did because I I
39:40
Speaker 1: mean that sounds terrible, but essentially like it was like no, you,
39:43
Speaker 1: we don't you. You are going to break completely now
39:46
Speaker 1: and if we think about this, we're just not gonna
39:47
Speaker 1: think about it, right, And that's how I survived, right,
39:50
Speaker 1: And that's kind of the level of the psyche for
39:51
Speaker 1: any associative disorders, is that kind of like I can't
39:55
Speaker 1: handle this trauma right now. So this is what my
39:58
Speaker 1: body is going to do. This is what my mind's
39:59
Speaker 1: gonna do, This is what my mental health is gonna do.
40:01
Speaker 1: This is my psyche what it's gonna do. Whether it's
40:04
Speaker 1: to do the extreme of having four different people inside
40:07
Speaker 1: of me or just forgetting it, just forgetting um and
40:12
Speaker 1: hopes that I'd never have to dig it up again.
40:14
Speaker 1: But it always talks to you, obviously, because there's still
40:16
Speaker 1: triggers there. Um And And though we are talking about
40:21
Speaker 1: sexual trauma and abuse, I did kind of want to
40:23
Speaker 1: mention also attachment theories there. And we talked about attachments
40:26
Speaker 1: before women attachment issues. We've also talked about parentification before
40:31
Speaker 1: and this is all correlated. Um. There is another study
40:36
Speaker 1: that was titled the Associative Experiences of Women Child Abuse Survivors,
40:40
Speaker 1: and it actually goes into this whole conversation about the
40:44
Speaker 1: different experiences for young for women who had again child abuse, UH,
40:50
Speaker 1: whether it's emotional abuse, whether it's physical, whether it's sexual.
40:55
Speaker 1: They talk about the level of how attachment, because we've
40:58
Speaker 1: talked about the results of how you react or attached
41:03
Speaker 1: to people has a lot to do with how you
41:05
Speaker 1: interact or what has happened in your childhood and who
41:07
Speaker 1: you trust and who you can see is safe and secure.
41:10
Speaker 1: Part of that attachment level in our conversations before, but
41:13
Speaker 1: how that correlates was the dissociated especially when it becomes
41:16
Speaker 1: one extreme of another. And one of the big things
41:18
Speaker 1: I talked about, which we mentioned earlier, was emotional abuse
41:21
Speaker 1: and emotional neglect and neglect in general, so not even
41:24
Speaker 1: the physical or sexual abuse where it's all physical, just
41:28
Speaker 1: the mental abuse in itself can cause dissociative disorders or
41:33
Speaker 1: diagnosis or symptoms as well. And something to remember because
41:36
Speaker 1: again we do talk about the extreme levels of the
41:40
Speaker 1: movie Sibyl was based on a pretty severe sexual abuse
41:44
Speaker 1: physical abuse case way back when, and it became a
41:48
Speaker 1: huge kind of beginning in this conversation, and that's what
41:53
Speaker 1: we think of and not that this doesn't happen, it
41:56
Speaker 1: absolutely does. But when we talk about emotional abuse, when
41:58
Speaker 1: we talk about attachment theory and attachment issues, this can
42:02
Speaker 1: be going. This can go hand in hand. And that's
42:04
Speaker 1: what we want to recognize. That it's not what you think.
42:08
Speaker 1: It's not abnormal, it's not necessarily that it's detrimental. It
42:11
Speaker 1: is that it exists, and what you are doing is
42:14
Speaker 1: something that's trying to protect yourself. You already knew this,
42:16
Speaker 1: we said you said that just now, even before we
42:19
Speaker 1: talked about what dissociative disorder was, and it's many symptoms
42:22
Speaker 1: or diagnosis. You were like, this is my self defense mechanism,
42:25
Speaker 1: and that's what we call it. But in but in reality,
42:28
Speaker 1: this is kind of that level of trauma that has
42:30
Speaker 1: a lot taught us to cope this way. Is it
42:32
Speaker 1: help always help me? No? Can we talk about the
42:35
Speaker 1: fact that it can be debilitating, yes, but does it
42:38
Speaker 1: exist yes? And can we talk about the fact that
42:40
Speaker 1: attachment theories when extreme neglect or extreme abuse or pronification
42:45
Speaker 1: where the expectation is laid upon a child to raise
42:49
Speaker 1: the parent, or raise other kids, or become the parent
42:52
Speaker 1: in the family, it can cause a lot of trauma. Again,
42:56
Speaker 1: we talked about that earlier, and I think it's something
42:58
Speaker 1: to know that these studies are talking about why this
43:01
Speaker 1: can be a problematic and how this can occur. So
43:05
Speaker 1: it is a result of and not necessarily something that
43:08
Speaker 1: you're born with necessarily, which I don't know if that's
43:12
Speaker 1: There's so many things to that we know when it
43:14
Speaker 1: kind of diagnosis, it's like trauma versus biology. So but
43:20
Speaker 1: some people are more susceptible. We know that this is
43:26
Speaker 1: This is the thing about these types of disorders and diagnosis.
43:30
Speaker 1: It's complicated, and it's called conversation that can go in
43:34
Speaker 1: too many directions. It can, And before we get into
43:51
Speaker 1: our final direction, I actually want to make a very
43:53
Speaker 1: strange note. I just realized some people might be listening
43:56
Speaker 1: to this show for the first time because you're interested
43:58
Speaker 1: in this topic. If you didn't know, a cinnamon roll
44:01
Speaker 1: is a trope about a character it was very sweet,
44:05
Speaker 1: very pure. They go through a lot of trauma but
44:06
Speaker 1: are just like sweethearts. Right, So if you're listening to
44:09
Speaker 1: this and you're like, another thing to add is one
44:13
Speaker 1: of Annie's way of of distancing herself and just kind
44:18
Speaker 1: of giving herself self care. Fan fiction it is her love, right,
44:23
Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely. I wrote so much fan faure the last
44:26
Speaker 1: night I needed to go to sleep, but I had
44:28
Speaker 1: an idea which we love, which we love for her sleep. Okay, yes,
44:37
Speaker 1: all right. I just wanted to make that note for
44:38
Speaker 1: anyone who was listening to that very serious to stop you,
44:41
Speaker 1: to remind you that the people who listening to this
44:44
Speaker 1: one may not be listening to the versa. So but
44:49
Speaker 1: love this is my favorite trope. Yeah all right. Yeah.
44:52
Speaker 1: We had a recent review. Someone was like, I love
44:54
Speaker 1: Annie's love for all these nerd things, and I love
44:57
Speaker 1: Smith this love for social justice and social She was like,
45:01
Speaker 1: I'm the boring one here. But moving on, So as
45:07
Speaker 1: we're talking about TRABA, let's kind of come out of it.
45:09
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about dissociatives, disorders, dissociation and today
45:14
Speaker 1: because there's been some things that's been talked about again,
45:17
Speaker 1: social media has kind of made things rampant. We use
45:20
Speaker 1: words like impaths, and we use dissociate or disassociate as
45:24
Speaker 1: we like to say, because I all, I'm sure Christina
45:27
Speaker 1: has made it sound wonderful, but many times we've had
45:30
Speaker 1: to go back and forth on that word has been
45:32
Speaker 1: a lot, a lot. I was gonna say, Christina fort
45:36
Speaker 1: at the end, you just want to put a supercut
45:38
Speaker 1: of us cursing, trying to figure out the right word.
45:40
Speaker 1: Go ahead, or you can just make a little announcement
45:42
Speaker 1: how many times we messed up. So recently in twenty nineteen,
45:47
Speaker 1: there was a whole new phenomenon in which a bus
45:51
Speaker 1: State article came out titled the smartest women I Know
45:55
Speaker 1: are all dissociating um and it was written by emm
45:58
Speaker 1: Align Klein and which she kind of talks about the
46:01
Speaker 1: phenomenon Fleetbag, which was a huge hit. I've never watched
46:06
Speaker 1: this show. Have you ever watched this show? Did you
46:08
Speaker 1: like it? Yeah? I did? Okay, would you recommend for
46:10
Speaker 1: me and watch it? Or that? Just all cringe and
46:12
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to ignore it. Um, I'll have to.
46:15
Speaker 1: I'll get back to you on that way. I think
46:17
Speaker 1: probably ignore it for you. But yeah, it's very good.
46:19
Speaker 1: I like right. So Caroline from Unladylife, former co host
46:24
Speaker 1: of Stuff I've Never Told You, she loved it, as
46:26
Speaker 1: well as so many others. The show Girls was also
46:29
Speaker 1: mentioned in this article, and she kind of talks about
46:32
Speaker 1: a new term she has created, which is dissociative feminism,
46:36
Speaker 1: in which she states is quote simply refuses sustenance and
46:40
Speaker 1: lives sometimes within and sometimes outside the craggy body society adores,
46:45
Speaker 1: subsisting on miss lustful gazes and other women's jealous ones.
46:50
Speaker 1: So essentially the cool girl. We've talked about the types
46:54
Speaker 1: of girls in movies and or stereotypes. She's talking about
46:58
Speaker 1: the new form of the cool girl, in which she
47:01
Speaker 1: referenced fleabag, the main character who just kind of goes
47:05
Speaker 1: with the flow, does whatever, may make a comment about it,
47:10
Speaker 1: but essentially just does what it is to appease men
47:13
Speaker 1: or to appease that nature, whether it's body dysmorphia, whether
47:18
Speaker 1: it's drinking in order to forget, or whether having sex
47:21
Speaker 1: and then just zoning out in that sex like which
47:24
Speaker 1: is a whole other conversation we've had about enthusiastic consent
47:28
Speaker 1: and this would be the opposite of it and what
47:30
Speaker 1: women will do. So she has this whole article about
47:34
Speaker 1: women are dissociating now in this way from feminism. So
47:39
Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting, and I was like, I don't,
47:41
Speaker 1: I don't really, I don't really know if I understand
47:43
Speaker 1: this article any that you had a chance to read it,
47:45
Speaker 1: What did you think explain to me what I'm missing
47:48
Speaker 1: on this one? Okay, So I think that as someone
47:57
Speaker 1: who has seemed flee back, I think the points she
48:00
Speaker 1: was trying, well, the point they were trying to make
48:02
Speaker 1: with this article is that kind of this nihilistic attitude
48:10
Speaker 1: is a response and method of dissociating in a society
48:14
Speaker 1: where there's so much misogyny and patriarchy and all this
48:17
Speaker 1: toxic stuff. There's a whole scene, there's a really moving
48:21
Speaker 1: scene because basically what happens is, like Phoebe bridget Wall
48:25
Speaker 1: Fleabag is playing with the fourth Wallly. She'll look at
48:27
Speaker 1: you and say something um and then turn back, and
48:30
Speaker 1: then that's sort of the uh in quotes association she's
48:34
Speaker 1: talking about, I think UM. And then at the end
48:37
Speaker 1: there's a very powerful moment where she's like, no more,
48:39
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do this anymore. But she has
48:41
Speaker 1: this conversation where essentially she's talking to this guy that
48:44
Speaker 1: she wants to date that she might actually love, and
48:47
Speaker 1: she says something along the lines of like I want
48:51
Speaker 1: agency until I just don't want it anymore. Like I
48:54
Speaker 1: can't take is too much. It's too much to have
48:57
Speaker 1: this weight. I want someone to make the choices. I
48:59
Speaker 1: want someone to do this. Um. I personally, when I
49:06
Speaker 1: read it, like, I mean, maybe maybe I could see
49:10
Speaker 1: it being dissociation, but it was more like the we've
49:13
Speaker 1: talked about this to this sort of glorification of like
49:15
Speaker 1: self destruction and these sort of self destructive characters. I'm
49:20
Speaker 1: not saying like everything she did with self destructive, but
49:24
Speaker 1: a lot of it was a lot of self destructive,
49:26
Speaker 1: and I think that's different than dissociation. Right, So essentially
49:31
Speaker 1: what we're talking about nihilism versus dissociation, I personally think,
49:36
Speaker 1: so I think we're talking about like she maybe it's
49:41
Speaker 1: kind of like throwing up her hands. I'm just going
49:42
Speaker 1: to get into fights and drink a lot because this
49:44
Speaker 1: world sucks, versus like actually dissociating. Okay, all right, so
49:49
Speaker 1: this is okay. So soon after, I guess maybe people
49:51
Speaker 1: had questions like me, because I've never seen the show necessarily,
49:55
Speaker 1: so I don't quite understand. I get the premise of
49:58
Speaker 1: it essentially was like self de ricating humor in order
50:02
Speaker 1: to figure out oneself, and that's typically through a relationship
50:06
Speaker 1: and or relationships, so I assumed it was something like that.
50:10
Speaker 1: Girls kind of seemingly was along the same lines, except
50:14
Speaker 1: a destruction of friendship. A destruction of friendship as well,
50:17
Speaker 1: which maybe I've never seen anither one of these shows. No,
50:19
Speaker 1: neither one of the shows I have ever really kind
50:21
Speaker 1: of like interested me. However, like I said, I think,
50:26
Speaker 1: because yeah, I would as a person who was researching
50:29
Speaker 1: these things, and we talked about these things and saw
50:31
Speaker 1: the bigger like D I D level of dissociation, it
50:35
Speaker 1: didn't make sense, like that's not the same thing, and
50:38
Speaker 1: we're not the only ones. There was another article written
50:41
Speaker 1: advice by Kate Mooney, who counters some of the points
50:45
Speaker 1: made in buzz Feed article, but again kind of like
50:48
Speaker 1: us trying to remind everyone what dissociation actually is, and
50:52
Speaker 1: she was like, there's a difference. At one point she
50:54
Speaker 1: talks about being a difference between zoning out and giving
50:57
Speaker 1: up versus dissociating um, And she writes in her article, quote,
51:01
Speaker 1: according to Bethany Brand, a clinical psychologist and expert in
51:05
Speaker 1: trauma and dissociative disorders, quote, all of us dissociate to
51:09
Speaker 1: some extent, so it's not too often. The problem, she said,
51:12
Speaker 1: is that there's a confusion over what that means, even
51:17
Speaker 1: among psychologists. Again, this is where I kind of come
51:19
Speaker 1: back to the whole level. But it needs to be
51:21
Speaker 1: a spectrum. But it feels like dissociating. It's not necessarily
51:26
Speaker 1: a choice but a response. Right. That's yeah, that's kind
51:29
Speaker 1: of been my vibus. It's your body being like nope yea,
51:34
Speaker 1: which I just remembered one time somebody somebody kissed me
51:37
Speaker 1: and I just like collapse and I was like a
51:40
Speaker 1: dead body. I know, I couldn't moved wo okay, So yeah,
51:46
Speaker 1: so I just used the terms zowed down again, and
51:48
Speaker 1: that's not the same thing as what you're talking about,
51:50
Speaker 1: because I'd like this, I do not want this. That's
51:54
Speaker 1: not I think it could be a form of I
51:56
Speaker 1: guess this might be a disassociate eight. This might be
52:00
Speaker 1: where the term disassociate comes in. Maybe she should have
52:03
Speaker 1: said disassociative feminism is that dissociative? Maybe we just found
52:08
Speaker 1: a solution here at the end of all of this.
52:12
Speaker 1: I found that interesting and her Mooney's article, I felt
52:16
Speaker 1: like that a good point in reminding this is a
52:18
Speaker 1: bigger picture than you think. Right. So Mooney goes on
52:22
Speaker 1: to say, quote, dissociative symptoms often accompany anxiety disorders. During
52:26
Speaker 1: panic attacks, people may experience de realization, or the world
52:29
Speaker 1: around them appears foggy or surreal. The most severe expressions
52:33
Speaker 1: of dissociation stem from trauma. Victims of sexual assault might
52:36
Speaker 1: have an out of body experience and see themselves in
52:39
Speaker 1: the corner of the room or floating above themselves, either
52:42
Speaker 1: during the assault or when we're calling it later. Children
52:45
Speaker 1: who experience abuse learn to numb themselves emotionally and physically
52:49
Speaker 1: to block out painful memories, essentially to survive what's happening
52:52
Speaker 1: to them. Brand explained. Dissociation may develop as an adaptive
52:56
Speaker 1: technique to cope with severe distress, but can also become
52:59
Speaker 1: a conditioned habit that can carry with them into adulthood,
53:02
Speaker 1: where it can present a wide range of problems, from
53:04
Speaker 1: difficulty staying present enough to function on a daily basis
53:07
Speaker 1: to an inability to truly experience one's emotions right now. Good.
53:11
Speaker 1: She does say that it could be a habit, so
53:15
Speaker 1: there's an overlapping, but I think using it in the
53:18
Speaker 1: term that Klein used, it could be a disservice in
53:22
Speaker 1: when we're talking about dissociating again, I think we should
53:26
Speaker 1: say disassociating for that one, because I found I found
53:32
Speaker 1: a way. But all these conversations did bring to light
53:35
Speaker 1: like what is happening today? How do we look at it?
53:37
Speaker 1: What do we look at And I'm honestly interested in
53:40
Speaker 1: car of course we don't have to study about because
53:42
Speaker 1: I was trying to find dissociative behaviors with the pandemic
53:46
Speaker 1: and quarantine, because that has brought out of a whole
53:48
Speaker 1: new level and not just zoning out, not just being distracted,
53:51
Speaker 1: but truly dissociating, and maybe we can find it if
53:55
Speaker 1: y'all have know anything about it, maybe someone has talked
53:57
Speaker 1: about it during their therapy session, please let us know.
54:00
Speaker 1: But we didn't want to end with that, although that
54:02
Speaker 1: again kind of a big conversation, but we didn't want
54:05
Speaker 1: to talk about possible treatments for it. And again, this
54:08
Speaker 1: is one of those that has to be something that
54:10
Speaker 1: should be professionally talked about, whether it's through UH, a therapist,
54:16
Speaker 1: a doctor, even maybe being able to see someone on
54:19
Speaker 1: the professional level. But once some of the treatments that
54:22
Speaker 1: they said UH could be of help is psychotherapy or
54:26
Speaker 1: talk therapy, stress management maybe. And I can see that
54:30
Speaker 1: the panic attacks that I was talking about, I had
54:32
Speaker 1: to find a way to calm my triggers, so I
54:34
Speaker 1: don't get into that state of being looking at treatment
54:38
Speaker 1: of other disorders. So when we're talking about the quote
54:40
Speaker 1: comorbidities such as anxiety depression PTSD, those could be underlying
54:45
Speaker 1: ways of treating dissociative behaviors and dissociative diagnosis and symptoms
54:49
Speaker 1: as well. Again, you wouldn't want to talk to a
54:52
Speaker 1: professional about this. Some things that may help that go
54:56
Speaker 1: beyond that is having just a safe environment, which owns easy.
55:01
Speaker 1: But I know it's hard. It's hard to find that. Again.
55:05
Speaker 1: I don't even know if I've found that completely, but
55:07
Speaker 1: I found more ways of finding that for myself at
55:10
Speaker 1: age forty, late thirties, and that could include getting away
55:14
Speaker 1: from your family, no contact, or staying away from situations
55:17
Speaker 1: that you know can cause you that level of stress
55:19
Speaker 1: or triggers. I stayed away from Korean culture for a
55:22
Speaker 1: while because of my fears of that of the trauma. Um. Yeah,
55:26
Speaker 1: so some ways to looking again. Talk to people if
55:31
Speaker 1: you have an opportunity to get to a therapist or
55:33
Speaker 1: psychiatrist is a great thing to do. And just a
55:36
Speaker 1: reminder that yeah, you're not alone as what you are
55:39
Speaker 1: telling our stories. It's more common than you know. Uh,
55:43
Speaker 1: but it definitely should be talked about more. Yeah, clearly
55:48
Speaker 1: a lot of confusion around it, as we've explained throughout.
55:54
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's that's what we have to say about
55:56
Speaker 1: it for now. Um, if there are any listeners, if
56:00
Speaker 1: you have any thoughts or experiences, any resources we should
56:04
Speaker 1: look at, any halucidations, please let us know our emails.
56:10
Speaker 1: Stephanite your mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You
56:12
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or
56:14
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Stuff I Never Told You. Thanks as
56:16
Speaker 1: always to our super producer Chris Data. Bet she's probably
56:20
Speaker 1: just associating herself from us right now, oh no. And
56:24
Speaker 1: thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You
56:26
Speaker 1: this production to I Heart Radio for more Podcast in
56:28
Speaker 1: My Heart, Radiovia Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you
56:31
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows,