Latest / Butterfly Days w Tami Jorden / Surprise! Midlife Pivots Reveal Hidden Assets

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Surprise! Midlife Pivots Reveal Hidden Assets · Butterfly Days w Tami Jorden

• 0:00
  [Tami]: Thank you for for agreeing to to talk to me and to tell me all the things you know. I you know, my whole concept behind butterfly days is that I think for centuries women passed their wisdom one to another. And I think it's one of our strengths. And to make each other better, you know, that's the motive is that communal sense of if we share the information. we can make other people's lives richer. And it's kind of from that energy that I really I think you're gonna be a tremendous value add today in the conversation we're gonna have.
• 0:40
  [Johanna]: Well thank you so much. And and I totally believe that too, right? I mean women lift each other up. sometimes we we also tear each other down.
• 0:51
  [Tami]: Well there's power and it can go either way, right?
• 0:53
  [Johanna]: Exactly, exactly. And so I think the more that we actually focus in on these moments where these kinds of conversations happen, the more we empower ourselves and others. So that's the power.
• 1:05
  [Tami]: Yeah, no, that is exactly right. But I I o I love that line from Saint Francis for it is in giving that we
• 1:13
  [Johanna]: Mm. One hundred percent agree.
• 1:16
  [Tami]: So you came out of the corporate world. You had a career at Pfizer, is this correct?
• 1:22
  [Johanna]: I did. Twenty five years, so half of my life at Pfizer, yeah.
• 1:27
  [Tami]: Wow. Wow, that's amazing. And it's because of your experience there that you're led to found your you know what you do now. Tell us about that.
• 1:40
  [Johanna]: Yeah, so my role at Pfizer actually started in recruiting and then moved into organizational culture, talent development and career growth. And it was all about focused on enabling people to grow into what's next, right? To really be that the best self, right? To think about how do they step into their power. And that's what really energized me was when I was working one on one with a leader. one-on-one with another colleague to uncover what their passion areas were. Really, what was the core of them and how did that show up in the workplace? And when my role ended at Pfizer, I stepped into this space on my own as an entrepreneur to say, how do I help others navigate this transition that we're all in, right? When we retire or when we lose a job or when we make a pivot, how do we do that? with more energy, with more grace and you know, really with more optimism.
• 2:44
  [Tami]: Now are you over fifty when you make this transition?
• 2:48
  [Johanna]: My role was eliminated a year ago, yes. And I I would
• 2:53
  [Tami]: So you are living the midlife pivot.
• 2:55
  [Johanna]: I am l right in the middle of what you might call the messy middle, the glorious middle, the midlife.
• 3:02
  [Tami]: Yeah, listen, we all are. On Butterfly Days, we all are. And actually, I think that makes you more qualified than anybody else to talk about it. I love this. And I I I'm very excited about the possibility that your your focus is on helping women identify what their superpowers have become. So are you primarily working with midlife women at this point?
• 3:31
  [Johanna]: So primarily midlife women, I'm I am also talking with early career starters, right? So starting to think about what are the leadership lessons that I've learned that I wish I knew then, right? So so bringing the wisdom that that I have through my own personal experiences to new starters as they're embracing their career for the first time. So it's it's both on both ends of the spectrum.
• 3:58
  [Tami]: And are you finding that a lot of your midlife transitional women do they have a strong sense of of what their earned wisdom has netted them and where they are, or are they a little at ends, you know, kind of lost and and trying to find that?
• 4:19
  [Johanna]: My answer is gonna be yes to to to both, right? And and I think yes, right, because there there is this sense that I know what my earned wisdom is in terms of the fact that I've been producing and I've been recognized and and sort of validated through what I've produced and the outcomes I've achieved. But there's also this sense of I don't know.
• 4:24
  [Tami]: That yes and yes.
• 4:48
  [Johanna]: who I really am meant to be. I've been doing so much that I haven't been being. And that's the interesting tension, right? When we spend all our time doing, we assume that that's gonna give us what we want. But it's actually when we're being who we're meant to be that satisfaction and happiness are with us.
• 5:13
  [Tami]: What a fantastic differentiation. That you know, it's a fine thing what you do and doing it, right? But it is precisely in being who you are in the doing that the real sense of fulfillment is acquired. Yeah. Wow. So how how how d how do you make that come into play? Like what do you What do you see and what do you suggest?
• 5:45
  [Johanna]: So the first thing that I do with any person that I work with, and I had to do with myself, was really evaluate my values. And some of us have done values exercises in our lives. Usually we've done them in a leadership development program pretty early in our career, and we don't look at them again. Right. And and while our values are probably core to ourselves, how they show up changes over time. So Community was really important to me as as as a grounding value. That is very different today than it was twenty years ago. Right? Twenty years ago, community was very much about, you know, going sort of outward and being fully sort of active and engaged and present in all sorts of like, you know, workout groups or fitness oriented groups. Community then became associated with with my daughter and the friendships that she was making and and the programs that she was engaging in. And then community at work became more of leadership and how was I engaging with others and then now community is w well I don't even know what it is. I still I I'm rebuilding the community for
• 7:04
  [Tami]: Dynamic.
• 7:07
  [Johanna]: In all of our value.
• 7:08
  [Tami]: Encouraging. I love that. I love that because I think that's something we need to know is that your values, your core values can be what they are. But it's like the the kaleidoscope. As we go forward in time, they're they're shifting and they're becoming new beautiful patterns. And it's okay if that happens. It's okay if the way that your values show up changes. That's what you're saying?
• 7:39
  [Johanna]: It is, and I'm also saying that it's really important for us to actually pause and ask ourselves, how are these values showing up in my life? Am I honoring them or actually are they being depleted because I'm not honoring them?
• 7:59
  [Tami]: Yeah. What are you hearing women who are come to you saying? Like what what what what patterns are you seeing in what's being asked or or the fears or the concerns?
• 8:12
  [Johanna]: There are three things that are primary. The first is it's it's burnout, right? I'm I'm burnt out and I don't have a a clue to how to sort of fix that situation in my life. The second is I'm stuck. And that's somewhat connected to burnout sometimes, but not not always. And then the third one is is I people keep telling me I have to have boundaries. I don't even know what a boundary is. So those are the three things that I hear. I'm burnt out, I'm stuck, and I need a What are they? How do I set them? Like what the heck do you mean by a boundary?
• 8:58
  [Tami]: Just now spelling it right. Well, you know, when we're young as young women, I and listen, I can't speak to Gen X as experience because I I'm so pleased that it's different than ours. But when you're talking Jen Jones, which is the generation born 1955 to 1965, or or Jen X, which is 1965 to 1980, this is the women that we're speaking to. We We were brought up to to with the understanding that you can be anything, but we're gonna tell you what all we want of you and you need to do it to be a good girl, you know? And so for us hitting midlife is tricky because how do we get our power back? And it's gotta be tied into the boundary thing, which we're trying to get to and I would think we're slightly better at or better equipped for because When your hormones take a dive, the st extraordinary thing about it. It's so good. You don't care as much what other people think about what you just said, thought, or intended to. So you still do, just not as much.
• 10:11
  [Johanna]: You still do, but I I would argue that you actually care what you think. Yes. And then that's the three AM wake up where you sit there and you said, I could have, I should have, I would have. Why did I do it that way? What was I thinking? How could I possibly have done that? And you beat yourself up. Right. So when I talk about boundaries with many of the the women that I work with, it's also the boundary that we put on ourselves because we have the most rude interrupter that shows up, that gremlin voice, that sort of inner mean girl. We would never say the things we say to ourselves to a friend. Ever. Yeah. And we do it all the time to ourselves. We are our biggest critics.
• 11:05
  [Tami]: Your inner narrative is I the older I get, the more I know it is so mother freaking important. How I talk to me and how you talk to you it's either gonna hobble you or it's gonna empower you.
• 11:23
  [Johanna]: hundred percent of the time. And I like to name my inner gremlin. You know, I've I've given him a name and it's really quite funny. And I I call it it's Gil Banks and it's because it's my most favorite character from growing up and my most disliked character from growing up. So it's Gilbert Blythe from Anne of Green Gables and Jared
• 11:48
  [Tami]: This he was horrible.
• 11:50
  [Johanna]: And then Jarge R. Binks from Star Wars, you know, is the two that I didn't like, you know. So I'm like
• 11:56
  [Tami]: banks, this is genius. This is genius. And so by by identifying that voice and singling it out and and indeed naming it, because when you name something, you call it into being, right? The how does that give you a little edge? Like what's the what's the most helpful part of that?
• 12:18
  [Johanna]: So for me, just naming the fact that this is not true, that this is a story that someone that that some voice is actually telling me. This is not the reality of what's happening. Right. That is power in and of itself, right? So challenging that voice and asking what is the story that I'm telling myself in this moment? And what is actually true? What are the facts that I have? That gives me power. Right. That gives you the ability to say, I don't need you to protect me, because the voice is coming from a sense of sort of automatic protection, right? It's there for a reason. I don't need that. Right? I what I need is I need you to support me. I don't need you to protect me. I need you to support me. So you need to become a coach, not a critic.
• 12:57
  [Tami]: Yeah, self protection, sure.
• 13:11
  [Tami]: I love that. Because you know, it's not just the story that you're telling yourself. That's a problem or you know, helpful, but it's the story about the story. I always do that. That happened to me, and that's why I am, you know, whatever. And if if you can't even basically identify that these are stories and that somebody else could have lived through what you did. And not had the same response, perception, experience. It there's something incredibly I I hate to use empowering, but it's the only word I can get right now. But there's something incredibly turbo about knowing if I can think about this differently, I can own it. You know what I mean? I can make a different choice. And that's isn't that largely where the power of the pivot is, is being able to see the story a l from a different angle and then taking it.
• 14:22
  [Johanna]: Hundred percent agree, right? And it's hard. This is not easy, right? Taking that perspective and and understanding that that the voice that has been with you your life, right? That in some cases has been proven correct because you have an automatic yeah, it's been proven correct, right? And sometimes it's been proven correct because it's something outside of our control, but oftentimes it's because we then have
• 14:38
  [Tami]: Times it was.
• 14:48
  [Johanna]: You know, an automatic thought that comes with this story, we then have a behavior, that behavior then reinforces the story, right? So so all of that is true. So when we have a pause, when we take that moment to sort of reflect, to challenge and to ask, it moves us from reaction to response. We are actually then at choice. And being at choice is so freeing.
• 15:13
  [Tami]: You said something that I get lots of questions about and I think rightly so. It's precisely that the specific here is reaction and response. How how do we become better able to be responders and not simply reactors? You know, how do we feel strong enough and smart enough? to be able to move into that space. Do you do you have do you have good language for us for that?
• 15:48
  [Johanna]: Yeah, so so there's a few things, right? The first is understanding where our energy is. So so I'm an energy leadership specialist and I do assessments that actually help people understand where their energy is and what's happening under stress because stress is where that reaction response is coming from. We when we're under stress, it's very difficult for us to access choice, right? Because we are reacting. and what we have to do is have awareness. Just that language. This is me ha I'm under stress, being open, being honest, recognizing what's physically happening to us. So right, when we start to stress, when when our face flushes, when we start to sort of feel at edge, those are physiological symptoms, right? That are actually pointing us to there is something that is a stressor here for us. We are now
• 16:26
  [Tami]: Yeah.
• 16:45
  [Johanna]: operating from survival as opposed to from performance. So how do we really stay here and understand the emotions? So that's what I speak with c clients about all the time is awareness of what's going on. And the most powerful thing that each and every one of us, our most important superpower, is a pause. 30 second pause from trigger to response. When we pause, it gives us that ability to choose.
• 17:20
  [Tami]: To regulate. Yeah. Yeah, I I I I'm so impressed by what you're saying because the beginning part of what you just said is for us to s the power of staying in your body and noticing what the body is saying to you. Because I cannot tell you in my own life, but I watch it in my daughter's, for instance, that I'm fine, I'm fine. But your body is not acting like you're fine. You know what I mean? And you need to listen to that. It matters.
• 17:55
  [Johanna]: It does matter. And the body, it will tell us everything we need to know well before our mind will accept it. And something that you just said there's a it really is. And and and you know, our bodies are our our temples, right, in so many ways. So we have to cherish and honor them. But something you just said, right, when when our daughters say, I'm fine, and and many of us have said I'm fine. Well, fine is interesting because it's feelings inside not expressed.
• 18:28
  [Tami]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 18:32
  [Johanna]: That's a pretty powerful one. So when I had some leader tell me that at one point in my career when I said I'm fine and they're like, You're not fine and I'm like
• 18:40
  [Tami]: You're not fine.
• 18:43
  [Johanna]: Word. It changed our conversation. It actually changed the leadership dynamic between me and and this leader as well. it was just like, wow, you're absolutely right. I am not acknowledging, I'm not accepting, I'm not even recognizing what I'm feeling in this moment. And therefore, those feelings are sort of staying suppressed. And what would then happen is those feelings, once they were so suppressed, they would just burst out, right? So I would
• 19:12
  [Tami]: They pop up like a balloon, yeah, underwater. Yeah. Well, and you know, too, as you're saying this, I think to myself, you know, part of the reason that it would be a problem to to just paper over what you're feeling is that you're sending a message to yourself that my response here doesn't matter as much as whatever else is going on. And That's I don't know, but I just think over fifty that is not where we need to be anymore. You know, it's not gonna get us living in the way that we want to mo you know, deeply want to.
• 19:57
  [Johanna]: Yeah, we self sabotage, right? We absolutely do. And and it's easy to do that, right? Because, you know, we're putting others first. And and many of us in in you know this this time of our lives, we've been the caregiver. We're actually taking on new and expanded and different caregiving roles of our parents. You know, we've we've
• 20:18
  [Tami]: With parents, yeah.
• 20:20
  [Johanna]: We're we've raised our families, we've been in relationships, we've led teams, we've always been giving to everyone else, and and that's still going to be there as our parents age and as our kids grow up and maybe if we have kids, they have kids, you know, who knows what it is as we take on bigger leadership responsibilities in in our our jobs. Or we take on community activism type of responsibilities.
• 20:48
  [Tami]: Become entrepreneurial.
• 20:50
  [Johanna]: All of that we have to give to ourselves. And and it's so hard to do that. And I actually had someone like two months ago say to me, and and I was talking about that this sort of self-care adage, right? Put your oxygen mask on first. You know, you can't I would love it. You can't pour from an empty cup, all of those, right? No. She said to me, she goes, You can only pour from the overflow. She goes, You can't even pour from a filling cup.
• 21:05
  [Tami]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:18
  [Johanna]: You have to wait until you filled your cup up to the top and it's overflowing and that's what you give from. And I was like, I've been teaching this stuff for years and I don't do that. And you're absolutely right. I've got to fill my cup to overflow and then I can give to others.
• 21:40
  [Tami]: Yeah, yeah. Although I mean, I I've recently been talking with a lot of people who are are dealing with parental dementia or other physical things and their caregiving on the parental end while their children are either coming into adulthood or are young adults. And I think the message they're giving me is I'm having trouble finding enough for my cup and it doesn't matter. It It's still hitting the fan every day. Yeah. How do you how do you what's a do you have any tips for that? That bless her heart, that woman?
• 22:17
  [Johanna]: Yeah, so so that woman is is also me. so what what my experience was a year ago was my daughter was a freshman in college, my mother was diagnosed with leukemia, my stepfather was in the hospital, and so all of that was happening at the same time and I lost my job. Right in the middle of it. All at one time All at one time.
• 22:39
  [Tami]: One time.
• 22:41
  [Johanna]: So it was it was that moment and and I was just like, Well, okay, so this was actually a a gift in some ways, as weird as it sounds, that my my job was was eliminated because it almost pushed me into where I am now starting my business. And I I reflected on that and said with gratitude to say, Well, well, thank you. But it was also like now this is the most stressful moment of my time. I have I've got all of these medical things going on. My thought like what is happening? and so for me, what was really important was to actually have very different conversations with each one of these you know, stakeholders, right, in my life, you know, talking with my husband about what does this mean for us. My husband also left his job and started his own business, right? So so we're very privileged in the fact that we have the capacity to be able to do that. So I'm very thankful. But also my daughter was struggling in school. My mother had these d diagnoses. I had to be in Maine and I live in Connecticut. So it was just traveling all over the place. So it was so stressful. But I had to have the conversation about what can I show up with? What are the boundaries that I need to put into place for me, right? I cannot pick up the phone and answer every single text that I get. I cannot do that. How do I create that space? And so I needed to give myself grace that I was gonna mess stuff up. I needed to put the boundaries in place to say I cannot engage in these types of things. I had to recognize that every yes I said was a no to something else. And so I created it was just and I'm like, I love to say yes. I'm a helper. I've always said yes. I don't like saying no. But I had to come up with a way and criteria that let me do that. So I did just like I did, it's on my fridge. I'm like, what am I saying yes to this week? And what am I saying no to? Right? What's the criteria that you put in place? No. Have I
• 24:29
  [Tami]: Yeah.
• 24:42
  [Tami]: You do it on paper?
• 24:54
  [Tami]: How did you how did you create criteria? Like for you, give me you know, I'm not asking for your personal, you know, too much, but like if a woman hears this and she goes, my god, I need that, how did you do it? What can you tell a sister about that?
• 25:10
  [Johanna]: So for me, it was back to the values that ground me. So if I'm gonna say yes to something, it has to align with one of my values. Is it going to ensure that I'm building community for myself? Right. So it's not that I'm building community for others. Is this building community for me? Right. So I said yes to being on a board of directors for a local community group that's all about music. That is a part of what was brought joy to my my daughter when she was a singer, but also brings joy to me, right? So that is something I said yes to because it brought me into the local community and it wasn't something an area I'm passionate about. I said no to being in a Bunko group, right? Where I'm playing card games with my friends. so I those are some of the things. It's like that's still fun. I'm not going to commit to doing that once a month, but I will commit to coming on occasion. Right. So Those are the ways that I just small little practices that I put into into play. I also said, you know, I I I do need to use social media, right, to build a business, to be present, to be connected, because you know, my my community is still global, but I need to have some regulation as to how I use social media, when I use social media, and for what purpose. Right. So really getting clear on that. So that sort of eliminated my doom scrolling, right? And and my engagement in in places that just were were not bringing me joy. So those were two. And then the third was is that I had to really look at what were some of the things that I had neglected in my corporate career. And that was really being in nature. And so I needed to figure out how do I get back into being outside in nature and so for me it was my kitchen garden and really focusing in on times there.
• 27:04
  [Tami]: Yeah, and just fill in your heart. my goodness, this is great counsel. And you've been very honest and and I really appreciate that. Cause I think that that really helps someone in the position think about it. And I I love how you framed it with your values. I but I do here's here's my question from that though. I find over time that my Close friendship circle has become tighter. That I am protective of my energy and my time in this regard because the people that are on my watch, I need to serve from the fullness of my heart and receive from them. I can't, I can't do me without, you know, the the reciprocalness of that. What about you? Did you find that there are relationships that you hold with a lesser hand or How does how does that look for you?
• 28:05
  [Johanna]: Yeah, so I I had to really think about what what that meant for me. What what do these friendships, you know, look like in in this chapter? And, you know, a lot of the friends that that I have that are my closest friends were people I met through my daughter, right? And so we were connected because they they were in band together, they were in theater together, they did dance together, and we became friends. And and rightly so, right? I mean, and they're they're wonderful and phenomenal people. But what we needed to do and I needed to do was was really find what's connecting us outside of our children. Right. So what what are the things that that we you know enjoy doing? Some of us it's travel, others it's reading, some of us it's just being, you know, just being together. So I created a book club actually and It's a wonderful little we call ourselves the Beachside Bells. There's sixteen of us in this book club and we come together once a month and we have a wonderful time. it's in person. That was really important too, because you know, so many of us work virtually. So this is in person in our local community and it's been great.
• 29:15
  [Tami]: Yeah. And soul filling. I love that. And I love that you've made a once a month commitment where you can go and just stop and just be a friend. You know? But not only that, but when we read, we learn something and we connect with other people with larger ideas. There's just a lot of goodness in that idea. I love that. I love that. The I just spoke with a woman recently and she said they have a group called WTF and it's the Wednesday's third now I can't remember what it is, but the deal is they get together the third Wednesday of every month and they have to do something different, unique, outside the box. That's the challenge. And every month it's a different woman's turn. To choose the thing that they will do together outside the box. They went skydiving. They have done craft projects at somebody's house. They've done they went to Sedona. I mean, they did all these cool things together. And I I think that they're it's often undervalued for women how important it is to have a social connection that even in the midst of all these responsibilities. all the work, all the sandwich generation dynamics, that you have social connection that fills your heart and allows you to give the best of you, where you can be seen.
• 30:54
  [Johanna]: That is so important. And I love that, right? That idea that they get together and they they they support and push and challenge and enable one another in different ways, right? It's it's not just to to to come together to to talk, it is really to to grow and to learn. That's that's amazing.
• 31:14
  [Tami]: Yeah. It is, and you know, it's sort of undervalued how important it is for women to have strong social nets. And as we age and attrition begins to come into play and divorce and and widowhood and all the things, your female friendships become a value that they may not have been in your fifties and sixties. And you know, I'm I'm always saying to people, you can't make new old friends. You can make great new friends. I I don't want to disparage that. But the women that know you over time, that becomes powerful for healthy longevity.
• 31:57
  [Johanna]: Yeah. Yeah, and I love that you highlight that, right? Because it it is so critical. And it also is something that, you know, at least for my generation, right, we're we're now approaching, or many of us have gone through menopause, but it was a taboo subject, right, for so many of us to talk about. women's health is just not something that you bring up. And having a group of people that you can actually say, What is going on in my body? Have you experienced this? It's safe.
• 32:30
  [Tami]: Does this happen to you?
• 32:32
  [Johanna]: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or hey, I'm having this and everybody's like, don't tell me that 'cause I don't want to know about it. I'm like, No, you need to know about
• 32:42
  [Tami]: You need to know this. Yes. And you know, listen, it w in particular about health and medical things, it we you don't get that in school. So if it doesn't come up in your doctor's office randomly, you you may not have access to to knowledge, and knowledge is power, you know? So important. So A here we are, a lot of us, get to this point. We've come so far in the career, we're often balancing kids, you know, that are launching and the parents, and we're feeling like maybe it's time for a pivot, but how what are what are some good tips about getting yourself set up for success in managing a pivot?
• 33:38
  [Johanna]: It's a a fabulous midlife pivot. So a fabulous question. and and you know, for me, I was planning my pivot before my pivot was sort of accelerated. so one of Yeah, yeah, exactly. So one of the things to prepare for is is actually grieving what we're leaving behind. And and that's important because you know sometimes
• 33:39
  [Tami]: A midlife.
• 33:52
  [Tami]: Poor life delivered it.
• 34:05
  [Johanna]: You know, if if i i if we choose the pivot, the pivot is chosen for us, whatever, we will fill ourselves with busyness, right? Whether we've retired and now we become busy, whether we take on a new job and we're busy, right? We glorify busyness. And it's a socially acceptable way to avoid grief. So ste spend some time really recognizing that we are leaving something. Our identity is shifting. Grieve that. And that's okay. Ask yourself, what am I leaving? What am I what do I want to actually carry forward from that previous life? Right. And what do I want to create space for? Whether it's in a new job, whether it's in a semi-retirement or as a solopreneur, whatever it is, grieve what you're losing, identify what you want to bring forward, and then identify what What other things do you want to create space for? But give yourself that space for the grief.
• 35:09
  [Tami]: So good. And the reason why you're saying give yourself space is because you deserve it. You would grant it to anyone else. You deserve it. And how on earth are you gonna get clarity about what you want next if you don't walk through what was so that you know what all you're bringing to the table? I mean, because I see where it would be very Difficult to know what you want when you've never fully acknowledged who you are or how the journey has taken you here or what it's made you so far. Yeah. You know? Because you were so busy living it that you forgot to see, look who I am now, you know.
• 36:00
  [Johanna]: And the other thing is is so many of us are high achieving women, right? And and we still kind of going back to that that thing I said at the beginning, we equate our worth with our output, right? Because we've always produced something. And so we recreate either a a job without meaning, right? We're or we recreate sort of this busy energy, right? and it's because we haven't taken that pause. To really ask, as you said, what matters now? What actually truly matters?
• 36:36
  [Tami]: Yeah. Yeah. And i i this is your moment to do it because we're not living our mom's midlife experience. You've got more years, there is so much more sand in your hourglass, and now you have an ability to control what you want to more ability. you know, everybody's at a different place on what they can or cannot. You are constrained by your mom's condition and all those things. So we want to be respectful of that. But within that, you still have the ability to know more clearly who you are. Because that girl that started out at 20, 24, she was lovely, just lovely. But what the years have made you and what when you think of everything that you have lived through, and figured out and managed and got everybody this far, there's so often you are so much more capable and thoughtful and wise about things that it's become normal to you so you don't see it. And isn't it there's something beautiful about taking that pause, allowing the grief of this part's over And I really loved it, even though I hated it, you know, or I really hated it. There's huge relief, it's over, but still, it's an ending. And then saying, But who am I now? Who is this this woman? And then from that, using your core values to say, This sounds crazy, but you know what I always wanted, or what if I know? Yeah.
• 38:31
  [Tami]: You know?
• 38:32
  [Johanna]: I do, I do. And that is such a powerful moment when we can ask ourselves, you know, that that question, who am I now? And it's okay not to know. Right? And it's okay to go find out, right? It's okay to try things, right? Try things. If you don't like it, okay. You've now learned that's well something I don't like to do. We haven't been able to try things.
• 38:46
  [Tami]: Yeah. Yeah.
• 39:01
  [Johanna]: You know, sometimes.
• 39:03
  [Tami]: I I I do run into a fair number of women who said, Well, I thought when I got to this point, I would do so and so, and then life or they start trying it and they're like, not the video and the audio don't match my expectation of what I thought I would do or be or you know, get to have, it's not so good. And the thing is This is great news. It's a data point that that's not what works. So what else is there? Yeah. Th I you know, my prayer is always this or something better. And allow some room for something even more extraordinary than we were able to conceive to be brought into our awareness and into, you know, something that we can begin to live out and manifest.
• 39:56
  [Johanna]: Tammy, I love that you said that too, because it reminds me of you know, something else I've been sort of reflecting on is oftentimes we have this sort of end goal, right? Because that's sort of the pinnacle thing that we want to achieve. So we laser focus like we're you know, a a horse in a in a race. And I've always said, like, well, okay, the horse has blinders on because they just want to see straight ahead to the finish line and they're not looking at all of the beauty, the daffodils in that field. The other horse that's right there, the pod, like you're just missing all of those other opportunities if we're so, so hyper focused on something way far in advance that we miss the now. So it's also like, let's spend some time in the now, right? That's that's the other part that I did not do.
• 40:50
  [Tami]: Yeah. It's it's it's okay to be here now. Even if that's difficult, even if you're caregiving someone with dementia and it's painful, it's still okay to be here now. Because you know, I guess I'm thinking a lot about I I've had so many friends recently with with difficult diagnoses, can be something in your case, which is a medical issue, can be dementia, whatever. But There's and and I actually have people whose parents are dying, you know, right now. And in my work is a doula, I'm seeing it. It's really crazy because the last thing you want to do is be fully present. You know, you keep thinking, this is so terrible, I need to not be here. and I'll focus on something that I can do or whatever. But my observation is that if you can marshal yourself to be present to the experience. The weirdest thing happens, you start to just do what you said. You realize, look how beautiful that daffodil is. You guys, the sun feels so good on my face today. Yeah. There's room to find oddly joy in almost anything. Yeah. You know, like even it's the craziest thing or how kind somebody was. I have, you know, friends in hospice right now. And They're the revelation of the kindness of people who support people in the final act of living. You know? And if you're just focused on the whole thing, you miss what the experience is bringing to you. You know.
• 42:31
  [Johanna]: I d I do. And and there's there's two things that sort of come to mind as as you're talking is it's the paradox, right? Of of being able to hold two things that seem opposing equally true at the same moment. You know, not joy joy and grief, right? You can hold those two. Yes. and as you said, it is sometimes a rainbow that you see in the sky, a cardinal visiting at the feeder. the the new growth that's happening in the garden. Something as simple as as that can reconnect us to yeah, you know, the person that that we're you know saying our goodbyes to or to ourselves, right, in those moments. My father passed away actually when he was fifty five. so it's about thirty years ago. And one of the things I learned during that process was the importance of of truly listening. and and I think that's something that w many of us, especially in a corporate environment, lost. you know, we we don't listen as deeply, as in in as intensely and as in the moment as we should. We're always thinking about something. You're thinking about the next meeting, you're thinking about the conversation with the doctor, you're thinking about What am I making for dinner tonight? You're thinking about whatever you're thinking about. Right. It's there. So how can we really start to be fully, fully present in these very difficult moments, giving ourselves that that ability to be there? It's hard to do and it's painful sometimes.
• 44:19
  [Tami]: It's a discipline. It's a discipline. You know, there's a line in this song that I love, and it it just comes back to me at weird moments. But the the the writer is talking about life. And he frames it this way. He says, Joy and sadness are this ocean in its every ebb and flow. And I think because I'm a death duel and I I spend time with people at end of life, I think there's so much. Of life that's actually oddly beautiful, even if it's not comfortable, that you're gonna miss one day. And if you're so busy running from it and thinking about the next thing and you know, d this warp speed, breakneck, pace, I really think when you're laying there thinking about it all, it will not be pleasing to you that you made that choice. And I I I just I uphold what you're saying and I support it because To be present for your own life, that's the gift. And it it is available to you even if your life is hard. Life is the mix, this joy and sadness. It's okay either direction and there is goodness to be had either way, right?
• 45:38
  [Johanna]: And I I don't know if we would ever fully have one without the other.
• 45:42
  [Tami]: Mm. There would be yeah, no contrast. Yeah. That's incredible.
• 45:46
  [Johanna]: Yeah.
• 45:50
  [Johanna]: You know, I mean grief and sadness means that something mattered.
• 45:55
  [Tami]: Something mattered. Yeah. Yeah. They say that grief is the price that you pay to have loved deeply. And
• 45:58
  [Johanna]: And it's still bothered.
• 46:06
  [Tami]: Come on. There are things that are worth that that you know, you look back and you're like, wow, that was so hard, but so worth it. And And grief is one way that you know that it was worth it.
• 46:18
  [Johanna]: Yeah.
• 46:20
  [Tami]: Well, that is so beautiful. So for my ladies that are listening and they're they're thinking, Johanna, maybe I wanna talk to you about how I do this or understand myself in some of the ways that you've talked about earlier. How can we find you or where are you online or or how do we contact you?
• 46:42
  [Johanna]: Yeah, so you can reach out to me on LinkedIn is is really where I spend a lot of my time, but also on my website, anchortoaspire dot com. that's anchor to aspire dot com. I'm also go I'm hosting monthly workshops that are really focused on renew you. so those are opportunities to just come together, right? Sixty minutes once a month, talk, be a part of the conversation, and hear other perspectives and points of view.
• 47:12
  [Tami]: Hm. What what types of women are drawn to you? If we c if we come to one of your your monthly meetings, who are we who are our compatriots?
• 47:23
  [Johanna]: So it's it's midlife, mid career women, so people who are really exploring what's next or who feel that there's this need to shift from burnout to balance. So we talk a lot about what's going on in our lives. each one of these workshops, I use phototherapy, right? So we explore what a picture tells us about something we're challenged in in our lives, and we all look at the same picture and each one of us has a different perspective of what that picture is. So I try to bring those types of fun engagements into these these workshops. So
• 48:01
  [Tami]: Yeah. And how powerful.
• 48:05
  [Johanna]: Because it gives us that opportunity to hear and to share, right? To listen and to be.
• 48:11
  [Tami]: Yeah. And there's something really important when you are trying to when you feel stuck or you're trying to go forward in when somebody offers you that opportunity to c look at something differently, especially if it comes from a creative place, that can be just exactly the leverage you need to pop into, you know, to get on a different track. that is brilliant. Johanna, I am so I have loved, loved, loved this conversation. And I'm I'm so grateful that you thought you've been so thoughtful about how you are bringing the gifts, talents, and strengths that you have to improve the lot of other women who are going through similar. And I like, I really like. That you're a real woman who's had these experiences and then from that wisdom you're offering, here's my hand back. Come on, come on, follow me.
• 49:21
  [Johanna]: Come with me. We're on this Yeah, we're we're together, right? We're all here on this on this journey, on this on this planet, as as you know, as a group of wonderful, powerful, amazing women.
• 49:22
  [Tami]: I love that.
• 49:36
  [Tami]: Yeah. I I that you're calling women into the clarity and the strength of their own power and you're doing so you know, from using your wisdom, God dang, I don't know that it gets any better than that. And it just makes me I just want to tell you, Johanna, I am rooting for you. Not Johanna, Johanna. For those of you who are wondering, I said it wrong, but I have correct again. Johanna, that's powerful. And I am rooting for you to continue to be able to touch and inspire more of us because this is what we need. This is the age and the stage where we need wise voices and people courageous enough to stand up and help us find the path forward. Absolutely.
• 50:27
  [Johanna]: Yeah, and and thank you for creating the space and the conditions and the opportunity to have conversations like this, Tammy, right? Being able to create
• 50:35
  [Tami]: Yeah, I mean we need it. We need it. And the women who you know share with me what they get from these various conversations, it's powerful. There's something incredibly powerful about women passing their wisdom to each other. And you know, I really, really appreciate it. So thank you everybody for joining us today. Please go look at her Anchor to Aspire website if you have interest. And or pass this on to a woman that you know who could find what she's looking for. You know, that that spark that's necessary.