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SMNTY Classics: Are women more passive aggressive? · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome stuff. I
0:07
Speaker 1: never sold to your protection of I Heeart Radio. So, Samantha,
0:19
Speaker 1: would you say you're passive aggressive? Do you have passive
0:23
Speaker 1: aggressive tendencies? I can't. Uh So, I'm not going to
0:28
Speaker 1: deny that. There are moments where I just don't want
0:31
Speaker 1: to deal with it, so I'll be passive aggressive if
0:33
Speaker 1: it's something that like, I will confront people, but it
0:36
Speaker 1: takes me a bit of time and courage to get there.
0:39
Speaker 1: So if I can try to do it passive aggressively,
0:41
Speaker 1: I try to do that first. Sometimes it's according to
0:45
Speaker 1: how good the relationship is too. If I know you
0:47
Speaker 1: well enough, then I'm gonna let you know, but usually
0:49
Speaker 1: in a joking manner. But if I can't do it
0:51
Speaker 1: that way, up, I can't be passive aggressive. Yeah, I'm
0:55
Speaker 1: kind of the same. I think a lot of it
0:56
Speaker 1: has to do with who you're dealing with, kind of
0:58
Speaker 1: the steaks also for me energy level, and sometimes I'm
1:02
Speaker 1: somebody my friends like to say I take things and stride,
1:06
Speaker 1: which I think sometimes can look like passive aggression, but
1:10
Speaker 1: it's really just me, Like I'm really tired. I need
1:11
Speaker 1: to think about this for a minute. And I'm not
1:15
Speaker 1: dismissing that that can look like passive aggression, But sometimes
1:20
Speaker 1: for me it's like I'm I'm just really tired and
1:22
Speaker 1: I need to I need to think about this. Yeah, yeah,
1:25
Speaker 1: I agree. I think sometimes I'll match people's energy. If
1:28
Speaker 1: you're being petty towards me, I might come back at
1:30
Speaker 1: you petty. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like the whole
1:33
Speaker 1: idea of passive aggression, especially when it comes to women,
1:37
Speaker 1: we have to keep in mind, as we've talked about
1:38
Speaker 1: a lot, like sometimes we can't just be aggressive for
1:42
Speaker 1: whatever reason it is, and maybe passive aggression is the
1:47
Speaker 1: way that we feel like we can deal with this
1:50
Speaker 1: without it escalating too much. I did have a situation
1:55
Speaker 1: in college with my roommates. There are six of us
1:58
Speaker 1: living in an apartment, and the passive aggression was strong
2:02
Speaker 1: towards the end because we had like three and three
2:04
Speaker 1: against each other sort of, and there was a lot
2:07
Speaker 1: of leaving of notes, a lot of talking behind each
2:10
Speaker 1: other's backs, and then it getting back to the person
2:13
Speaker 1: that was interesting wow wow. Like towards the end, I
2:19
Speaker 1: was keeping my dishes in my room like that's how
2:21
Speaker 1: bad it got, because oh I had a group of
2:25
Speaker 1: friends who just took a pile of the dishes in
2:28
Speaker 1: the laundry in their laundry basket and just placed it
2:31
Speaker 1: in front of the door of the person who wouldn't
2:33
Speaker 1: wash it. So, yeah, I've never gone there. I don't
2:37
Speaker 1: think that's wow. Yeah, that's something right there. Okay, I
2:43
Speaker 1: feel like that might be more aggressive, but I mean
2:47
Speaker 1: they never like after I think they talked to him,
2:49
Speaker 1: but then they're like, yeah, we're done. I just put
2:51
Speaker 1: it in front of the door. And I was like,
2:52
Speaker 1: oh wow, Okay, that's a that's a new level. Okay, yeah,
2:58
Speaker 1: that's definitely that's into It's so that I've been thinking
3:02
Speaker 1: about this because this is classic episode on women and
3:04
Speaker 1: passive aggression, because I recently watched the HBO show Our
3:11
Speaker 1: Flag Means Death, which is tycho a t s one
3:14
Speaker 1: of his new projects. He's he's involved, a lot of
3:16
Speaker 1: other people are involved, obviously, but he's the he's the
3:19
Speaker 1: executive producer, and he's a he plays black Beard in it,
3:22
Speaker 1: and I don't I'm not going to spoil it. Also,
3:23
Speaker 1: they're not a sponsor. My favorite episode is about passive aggression,
3:29
Speaker 1: where the main character Steed, who's sort of this, like
3:32
Speaker 1: fancy posh rich fellow who decides he wants to be
3:36
Speaker 1: a pirate as doing a you know, pretty poor job
3:38
Speaker 1: of it. And you got black Beards played by tycho
3:40
Speaker 1: A t t who's obviously black Beard, and they're kind
3:44
Speaker 1: of wanting to switch places, and you know, the main
3:47
Speaker 1: guy whose names Steed, he's like, you don't want to
3:51
Speaker 1: mess with this aristocratic crowd. They got their passive aggression.
3:55
Speaker 1: They say something and it's mass politely, but it's a
3:58
Speaker 1: weapon meant to hurt, and Beard's like, no, no, whatever,
4:01
Speaker 1: that doesn't make sense. And then of course they turn
4:04
Speaker 1: on black Beard. This crowd of aristocrats turns on turns
4:07
Speaker 1: on him, makes fun of him for not knowing the
4:09
Speaker 1: fork situation. He's upset and kind of like runs away
4:13
Speaker 1: and Steeds like, I'll handle this, and he goes in
4:17
Speaker 1: and basically calls his chaos through passive aggression, and black
4:20
Speaker 1: Beard comes in. He's like, what happened here? And Steed says,
4:23
Speaker 1: passive aggression. I'm hoping to talk about that show soon
4:28
Speaker 1: because I know there's a romance everybody's talking about. Again,
4:31
Speaker 1: no spoilers, but I want to come back and talk
4:33
Speaker 1: about it. But in the meantime that that whole episode
4:36
Speaker 1: really cracked me up. Please enjoy this classic on passive aggression.
4:45
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff
4:48
Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
4:56
Speaker 1: Caroline and I'm Kristen and report to of our armchair
5:01
Speaker 1: Psychology week. Chris and I are talking about passive aggressive
5:05
Speaker 1: behavior SLASH really having some come to Jesus thoughts as
5:11
Speaker 1: we research for this episode. UM, I selfishly requested that
5:17
Speaker 1: we cover the passive aggressive topic because I myself have
5:22
Speaker 1: struggled with passive aggressive behavior in the past. I'm supposed
5:27
Speaker 1: to say it like that according to my therapist, not
5:30
Speaker 1: just that I am passive aggressive. Well, I'm really relieved
5:33
Speaker 1: to hear you say that, Caroline, because it could have
5:36
Speaker 1: also been you selfishly wanted to do this podcast so
5:40
Speaker 1: as to better learn how to deal with passive aggressive
5:44
Speaker 1: people you might podcast with. Because this research also it
5:48
Speaker 1: was very eye opening for me as well in terms
5:51
Speaker 1: of my communication style, my conflict resolution style, particularly when
5:56
Speaker 1: it comes to relationships. And one thing we're going to
6:01
Speaker 1: focus on two is this idea that women are more
6:04
Speaker 1: passive aggressive than men. It's a pretty common stereotype. Google
6:09
Speaker 1: will auto fill it for you if you start searching around.
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Speaker 1: So we wanted to find out what passive aggressive behavior
6:18
Speaker 1: really is, where it comes from, whether in fact it
6:22
Speaker 1: is more of a female gendered behavior, and how to
6:27
Speaker 1: deal with it both in other people and also in
6:29
Speaker 1: yourselves and ourselves personally, Caroline, are really learning a lot
6:34
Speaker 1: this week on the podcast. We are I know between
6:36
Speaker 1: O C D and O C p D and now
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Speaker 1: p a passive aggressive behavior? But what what is it?
6:43
Speaker 1: What is it? Exactly? Uh? Passive aggressive behavior is a
6:46
Speaker 1: pattern of indirectly expressing negative feelings instead of just openly
6:51
Speaker 1: addressing them. There ends up being this disconnect between what
6:55
Speaker 1: a passive aggressive person is saying and what she ends
6:59
Speaker 1: up doing. So, for instance, when my fiance says, is
7:04
Speaker 1: it fine if I cleaned the bathroom tomorrow instead, and
7:08
Speaker 1: my response is yeah, sure, yeah, no, yeah, no, it's fine.
7:12
Speaker 1: I mean you know what, I'll actually just do it
7:14
Speaker 1: because that's fine. That that is passive aggressive right exactly.
7:21
Speaker 1: And there are so many of those examples that I
7:24
Speaker 1: feel like we'll crop up throughout this episode because I
7:27
Speaker 1: myself also have a lifetime of them. Okay, so what
7:30
Speaker 1: does it look like beyond just telling your fiance or
7:33
Speaker 1: your roommate or whoever, Oh no, that's fine, I'll just
7:36
Speaker 1: do it myself. Um well, it involves resentment and opposition
7:41
Speaker 1: to the demands of other people, particularly to just routine
7:45
Speaker 1: work and social tasks. And so this involves a lot
7:48
Speaker 1: of kind of uh on purpose foot dragging, so procrastination.
7:54
Speaker 1: You might even insert intentional mistakes in response to other
7:57
Speaker 1: people's demands. Because the key here is that passive aggressive
8:01
Speaker 1: people view just like simple requests or obligations or work
8:06
Speaker 1: tasks as super serious, awful demands. This also reminds me,
8:10
Speaker 1: Caroline of one of my favorite scenes in the classic
8:15
Speaker 1: summer camp film Wet Hot American Summer, in which Paul
8:19
Speaker 1: Rudd's character is asked to pick up something that he
8:24
Speaker 1: left on the table in the cafeteria or like throw
8:27
Speaker 1: away his trash or something very simple like that, and
8:31
Speaker 1: his like full bodied, like dragging response of like flailing
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Speaker 1: around and taking so much unnecessary time just to do
8:40
Speaker 1: that simple task is such a perfect satirized example of
8:44
Speaker 1: passive aggressive behavior, just like, oh, are you kidding? I
8:49
Speaker 1: can't throw away the trash. I know, I love that,
8:54
Speaker 1: And it is the perfect physical embodiment of this example.
8:58
Speaker 1: And I am ex to get more into this episode
9:01
Speaker 1: because we are going to talk about where that like
9:03
Speaker 1: resentment of demands comes from. But let's continue talking about
9:07
Speaker 1: what pass progressive behavior looks like. It also includes things
9:10
Speaker 1: like vacillating wildly between hostile defiance and contrition, so almost
9:15
Speaker 1: like you're realizing with the logical part of your brain, like, oh,
9:18
Speaker 1: I kind of seemed like a jerk just then. It
9:21
Speaker 1: also could include, you know, we mentioned that on purpose
9:23
Speaker 1: foot dragging. It also includes a cynical, sullen or hostile attitude,
9:28
Speaker 1: so you might just act dents on purpose, or perhaps
9:31
Speaker 1: defend an indefensible position or fact or opinion just for
9:36
Speaker 1: the sake of doing so. But it could also include
9:40
Speaker 1: and this is where it gets a little real, Kristen, Yeah,
9:43
Speaker 1: it could also include the withdrawal of support, presence, or attention.
9:47
Speaker 1: And this is sort of the crossing your arms and
9:50
Speaker 1: saying fine and walking away. I in my relationships have
9:56
Speaker 1: been super guilty of this, where if somebody does something
10:00
Speaker 1: and I don't agree with it, or it makes me
10:02
Speaker 1: feel bad or I think there's a better way, etcetera, etcetera,
10:05
Speaker 1: on and on I might just, you know, go to
10:09
Speaker 1: the other room and be like, fine, okay, a little
10:12
Speaker 1: a little bit of the silent treatment, a little bit
10:14
Speaker 1: of the silent treatment. And I'm actively working on getting
10:17
Speaker 1: better about having those direct conversations. But I'm not perfect.
10:23
Speaker 1: It's it's progress, not perfection. And I will say to Caroline,
10:27
Speaker 1: since we are being uncharacteristically candid in this podcast episode,
10:32
Speaker 1: listeners might might be a little weirded out right now, um,
10:35
Speaker 1: but I will say that the acting dnse ring a
10:38
Speaker 1: bell with me in terms of relationships, where you do
10:42
Speaker 1: the passive aggressive behavior can turn into you playing dumb,
10:45
Speaker 1: which turns the situation around on the other person to
10:49
Speaker 1: put them in the position of being on the offense. Therefore,
10:53
Speaker 1: you're the poor little victim playing defense and just asking
10:58
Speaker 1: asking questions that really can't be answer because the truth is,
11:01
Speaker 1: you know the answers already. And in addition to these
11:05
Speaker 1: kinds of things, passive aggressive behavior can also include frequent
11:09
Speaker 1: complaints about feeling under appreciated or cheated. This includes envious
11:14
Speaker 1: attitudes and behaviors towards people who seem more fortunate. There
11:18
Speaker 1: was also two gossiping and other pot stirring tactics to
11:23
Speaker 1: turn opinion against someone, And this reminds me also of
11:27
Speaker 1: our splet shaming podcast for sure, well not only are
11:31
Speaker 1: split shaming podcast, but a lot of this also reminds
11:33
Speaker 1: me of the episode we did on Shine Theory talking
11:36
Speaker 1: about female friendship and and good versus bad motivations for
11:40
Speaker 1: a kind of aligning yourself with someone basically, but yes,
11:44
Speaker 1: that effort to sort of hide your own envious or
11:47
Speaker 1: jealous or insecure feelings and behavior by putting the focus
11:52
Speaker 1: on someone else and saying, look at what they're doing wrong,
11:55
Speaker 1: trying to turn opinion against that person in favor of yourself,
11:59
Speaker 1: and one really casual kind of charming sometimes way to
12:02
Speaker 1: do that is through the use of sarcastic jokes. Yeah, yeah,
12:05
Speaker 1: I'm probably guilty of that myself, as with a lot
12:08
Speaker 1: of this stuff that I'm trying to get better at. Um.
12:12
Speaker 1: But part of all of this, too is a passive
12:14
Speaker 1: aggressive People tend to be super sensitive and hyper alert
12:18
Speaker 1: to any nuances they're They're looking for hidden meanings that
12:23
Speaker 1: somebody could be saying something or doing something that is
12:26
Speaker 1: negative towards them. So this grab bag of passive aggressive
12:31
Speaker 1: behaviors makes it pretty clear why passive aggression has such
12:35
Speaker 1: a wretched reputation, because it is a pretty wretched and
12:39
Speaker 1: unhealthy and cyclical set of things that we can do.
12:44
Speaker 1: But why why do people use passive aggression? We found
12:48
Speaker 1: a lot of insight in a column by Sidney Whitson
12:51
Speaker 1: over at Psychology Today kind of walks through a number
12:55
Speaker 1: of reasons why passive aggressive behavior becomes a crutch. And
13:00
Speaker 1: one of the big things is a fact of that anger.
13:04
Speaker 1: Just expressing your anger outright is often socially unacceptable, and
13:08
Speaker 1: I will say particularly for women. Yeah, and along those
13:12
Speaker 1: same lines, being indirectly aggressive or passive aggressive is easier
13:18
Speaker 1: than just being assertive. I mean, this is a thing
13:21
Speaker 1: being assertive and not being a jerk. Just saying what
13:24
Speaker 1: you feel or what you think, or just stating an opinion.
13:28
Speaker 1: That's not always easy for a lot of people. And
13:30
Speaker 1: that's something that you really have to be taught from
13:32
Speaker 1: a young age how to express yourself without trampling over
13:36
Speaker 1: someone else's thoughts or feelings in the process for risk
13:39
Speaker 1: being perceived as say, bossy, yeah, exactly. There's so many
13:45
Speaker 1: nuanced gendered things in this whole passive aggressive package. Um,
13:50
Speaker 1: it's also useful lot because it's so easily justified and rationalized. Christen,
13:54
Speaker 1: kind of what you were saying earlier about turning things
13:57
Speaker 1: around on the person, it's like, uh, you can cast
14:00
Speaker 1: yourself as the victim and blame your failures on someone
14:05
Speaker 1: else's quote unquote unreasonable demands. You know, if mom asks
14:08
Speaker 1: you to make your bed, you can somehow turn it
14:11
Speaker 1: around into being like, well, nothing I ever do is
14:13
Speaker 1: good enough. Apparently I can't, you know, do my chores
14:16
Speaker 1: well enough for you. You can't understand how stressful my
14:19
Speaker 1: life is. I have a test coming up right exactly.
14:23
Speaker 1: And another kind of icky aspect of passive aggressive behavior
14:29
Speaker 1: and motivations behind it is that passive aggressive people tend
14:32
Speaker 1: to uh enjoy the revenge aspect. They use tactics that
14:37
Speaker 1: are designed to sort of get back at a person
14:39
Speaker 1: that they perceived as making unreasonable demands on them, but
14:43
Speaker 1: without anyone detecting the underlying anger. So it's not that
14:47
Speaker 1: I'm like gonna, you know, saw part of the leg
14:50
Speaker 1: of your chair off so that when you sit down
14:51
Speaker 1: and then it falls over. I don't know why they
14:54
Speaker 1: can do yeah, than for doing that to me, I
14:56
Speaker 1: wouldn't do that, But I mean in general, not just
14:59
Speaker 1: in this example, Kristen, don't worry. But someone who is
15:02
Speaker 1: passive aggressive might call out sick, for instance, when they
15:07
Speaker 1: feel that their boss is making too many demands on
15:09
Speaker 1: them and that might end up sabotaging the boss's deadlines.
15:13
Speaker 1: And then the boss gets in trouble. But you look
15:15
Speaker 1: completely innocent because you were just outsick. After all, people
15:18
Speaker 1: are making all sorts of demands on you. You deserve
15:21
Speaker 1: a day off well. And that example with the boss
15:24
Speaker 1: is a perfect segue to how passive aggressive behavior can
15:28
Speaker 1: also bestow this false sense of power because when wielded artfully,
15:35
Speaker 1: you are in control of the situation exactly, and that
15:39
Speaker 1: when other people experience this cognitive dissonance of being like, wait,
15:44
Speaker 1: I'm not really sure what's going on. You seem innocent,
15:46
Speaker 1: like you're not angry or doing anything to hurt me,
15:48
Speaker 1: but I feel like I'm being hurt or something's wrong.
15:52
Speaker 1: That puts you in control of a whole other person's
15:56
Speaker 1: feelings and emotions. Now, passive aggressive behavior can help avoid
16:01
Speaker 1: costly confrontations. For instance, in a work setting, you know
16:04
Speaker 1: where you can't or you feel that you can't be
16:08
Speaker 1: outright assertive but I mean, think about those people at work,
16:12
Speaker 1: at various jobs you've had or various classes you've taken
16:15
Speaker 1: over the course of your lifetime. Even if passive aggressive
16:20
Speaker 1: behavior helps avoid a costly conflict, it's still icky. It's
16:23
Speaker 1: still somebody making a joke like, hey, Bob, so you
16:26
Speaker 1: couldn't stop drinking early enough last night to get into
16:29
Speaker 1: work on time. It's like, okay, well, what are you
16:31
Speaker 1: really saying with that comment. What you're really doing is
16:34
Speaker 1: criticizing a coworker or a classmate for behavior that you
16:37
Speaker 1: don't approve of, to make sure that they know that
16:40
Speaker 1: you don't approve of it. Yeah, instead of just saying, Bob,
16:43
Speaker 1: could you come to work on time right please? And
16:45
Speaker 1: maybe start showering because there's an odor now. On a
16:50
Speaker 1: deeper level, too, passive aggressive behavior might also be rooted
16:54
Speaker 1: in a caution, a fear of failure and embarrassment. It
17:00
Speaker 1: establishing kind of a layer between you and a potential
17:04
Speaker 1: hazard that you might see, whether that is some kind
17:07
Speaker 1: of confrontation where you risk being reprimanded or being called
17:10
Speaker 1: out um or the risk, say in a relationship scenario,
17:16
Speaker 1: of putting yourself out there and feeling vulnerable of expressing
17:20
Speaker 1: your emotions and saying, hey, this actually hurt my feelings
17:23
Speaker 1: and this is this is me being really vulnerable in
17:27
Speaker 1: this moment, and instead you kind of protect yourself and
17:30
Speaker 1: being past aggressive about it, and that convert that hypothetical
17:33
Speaker 1: conversation you just had about hey, I'm going to make
17:35
Speaker 1: myself vulnerable. Here is an excellent practice to have when
17:39
Speaker 1: you're in a serious relationship or you know, or a
17:42
Speaker 1: friendship or any relationship with another person that you want
17:45
Speaker 1: to be healthy and continue for a long time. It's
17:48
Speaker 1: good to say, hey, I'm vulnerable. But researchers have found
17:52
Speaker 1: that people who have those super cautious personality styles and
17:55
Speaker 1: have a hyper sensitivity to rejection, we're way more likely
17:59
Speaker 1: than there's to respond to relationship conflicts by doing things
18:03
Speaker 1: like going silent or withdrawing their affection, going cold, doing
18:07
Speaker 1: the whole silent treatment thing. So, since we've outlined all
18:11
Speaker 1: of these different components to passive aggressive behavior and all
18:15
Speaker 1: of the different ways that it can manifest in all
18:18
Speaker 1: the different ways it might be rooted inside of us,
18:21
Speaker 1: the next question is is it just a personality trait
18:25
Speaker 1: that some of us might have, or is it a
18:28
Speaker 1: mental health disorder, and I will see going into the
18:31
Speaker 1: research for this episode. I didn't think of passive aggressive
18:34
Speaker 1: behavior as a disorder. It was just something irksome that
18:39
Speaker 1: certain people do, and historically it has been considered a disorder.
18:44
Speaker 1: Well historically in the twentieth century, I should say, so
18:49
Speaker 1: we should go ahead and lay out there that pass
18:50
Speaker 1: aggressive behavior itself can be an aspect of various mental
18:54
Speaker 1: health conditions, but it is not considered to be its
18:56
Speaker 1: own mental illness. But there is a controversial history that
19:00
Speaker 1: we will dive into right now. So pass aggressive behavior
19:04
Speaker 1: as a disorder was really first documented during World War Two.
19:07
Speaker 1: It was used to describe soldiers who refused to comply
19:11
Speaker 1: with what demands. So there was this War Department memo
19:17
Speaker 1: where they were basically talking about how, hey, our guys
19:21
Speaker 1: in the armed services aren't being openly defiant, but you
19:24
Speaker 1: know what, we've noticed that they are expressing their anger
19:27
Speaker 1: and their aggression through quote passive measures such as pouting, stubbornness, procrastination, inefficiency,
19:35
Speaker 1: and passive obstructionism. And they just figured that this was
19:39
Speaker 1: an immature and neurotic reaction to routine military stress. And
19:44
Speaker 1: it was in the wake of this memo that this
19:47
Speaker 1: idea of passive aggressive behavior or a passive aggressive personality
19:51
Speaker 1: disorder really earned a foothold in military medical literature. And
19:56
Speaker 1: once it was there, once it had its foothold, the
19:58
Speaker 1: American psychological community took notice and adopted the concept. And
20:03
Speaker 1: initially they outlined three distinct types of this passive aggressive disorder,
20:08
Speaker 1: which is passive dependent, passive aggressive, and then just outright aggressive,
20:14
Speaker 1: which to me that was a little confusing about how
20:16
Speaker 1: aggressive could fit under a passion aggressive umbrella. But maybe
20:20
Speaker 1: those psychologists were just being a little pass aggressive about it.
20:23
Speaker 1: I don't know. So in the nineteen fifties, in preparation
20:27
Speaker 1: for the First Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, which we talk
20:30
Speaker 1: about a lot whenever we talk about mental health issues,
20:34
Speaker 1: the American Psychiatric Association borrowed the military's phrasing and applied
20:38
Speaker 1: diagnostic codes to it and named it passive aggressive personality disorder.
20:43
Speaker 1: And it was so fascinating to me, Caroline, that this
20:46
Speaker 1: whole thing, this entire language that we have for the
20:49
Speaker 1: set of behaviors, just rooted back to World War Two
20:53
Speaker 1: and soldiers being like, I really do I have to know?
20:56
Speaker 1: I don't I really don't want to do this, but
20:58
Speaker 1: not saying that, Oh no, They're not saying hey, I
21:01
Speaker 1: don't want to do this. They're just like, I'm just
21:03
Speaker 1: gonna pick up my tree real slow. They were pulling
21:06
Speaker 1: Paul Paul Rudd in like a military uniform, yes please,
21:10
Speaker 1: dragging his body around. Well, so what happens once this
21:14
Speaker 1: condition is added to the Diagnostic Statistical Manual is what
21:18
Speaker 1: happens a lot of times when things are added to
21:21
Speaker 1: the d s M. Suddenly everybody is being labeled with
21:24
Speaker 1: pathologic quote unquote trait disturbances that had to be treated.
21:29
Speaker 1: And this is coming from Christopher Lane at Northwestern University,
21:32
Speaker 1: and I think that he was quoted in a New
21:34
Speaker 1: York Times article and Lane talks about how the American
21:38
Speaker 1: Psychiatric Association was not simply over dramatizing routine behaviors, it
21:43
Speaker 1: was re labeling them malfunctions of biology and neurology the
21:47
Speaker 1: direction in which American psychiatry overall was heading. And according
21:52
Speaker 1: to Lane, they outlawed pouting. And this gets at the
21:57
Speaker 1: controversy over labeling past aggression as a disorder because it
22:02
Speaker 1: also infers a hidden motive. So some therapists and researchers
22:09
Speaker 1: have raised an eyebrow at that, saying, are we kind
22:11
Speaker 1: of just digging a little too much, like looking for
22:15
Speaker 1: something filling in blanks on our own to try to
22:18
Speaker 1: get to this diagnosis. Um. Now, there is a side
22:23
Speaker 1: note in the nineteen sixties, Worth mentioning that some researchers
22:27
Speaker 1: at the time didn't think that women's aggression specifically was
22:32
Speaker 1: worth studying because women were assumed not to be aggressive. So,
22:35
Speaker 1: keeping in mind the title of this podcast is our
22:39
Speaker 1: women more passive aggressive due to the whole stereotype. That
22:43
Speaker 1: was a really fast, uh turnaround from where this entire
22:50
Speaker 1: thing originated, which it was all focused on men soldiers. Yeah,
22:54
Speaker 1: and you know women, How could women be aggressive at all?
22:57
Speaker 1: They're so happy cooking? Yes, yes, um, well, so then
23:01
Speaker 1: when we fast forward to nineteen eighty and they're working
23:03
Speaker 1: on the d s M three, this is when research
23:06
Speaker 1: researchers start thinking, we'll wait a second, maybe this passive
23:10
Speaker 1: aggression reflects a specific behavioral response to specific situations rather
23:18
Speaker 1: than a broad personality syndrome. So that Kristen was saying,
23:21
Speaker 1: maybe we're digging too deep and looking for something that's
23:24
Speaker 1: not really there. And of course in the eighties we
23:26
Speaker 1: get another gender side note, because at this point researchers
23:30
Speaker 1: also start wondering whether women are aggressive after all, but
23:34
Speaker 1: just differently. After all, you know, we're physically weaker, so
23:38
Speaker 1: maybe they think we just have to develop other strategies
23:42
Speaker 1: to reach our goals. And more on that later, But
23:46
Speaker 1: moving into with the d s M for the American
23:51
Speaker 1: Psychiatric Association dropped passive aggressive personality disorder and replaced it
23:57
Speaker 1: with the more watered down diagnosis of negativistic personality disorder.
24:03
Speaker 1: And why would they do such a thing, Caroline Well,
24:07
Speaker 1: according to an article in The New York Times about
24:09
Speaker 1: this passive aggression or pass aggressive behavior, it was quote
24:13
Speaker 1: too narrow to be a full blown diagnosis and not
24:16
Speaker 1: well enough supported by scientific evidence to meet increasingly rigorous
24:20
Speaker 1: standards of definition. So good, obviously, the work is being
24:23
Speaker 1: done and put into actually distinguish between quirks. However, negative
24:28
Speaker 1: of a personality and actual personality disorders, and so negativistic
24:32
Speaker 1: personality disorder focused really, I mean, on a lot of
24:36
Speaker 1: the same things that passive aggressive personality disorder did, but
24:39
Speaker 1: it really focused in on moodiness and resistance again to
24:44
Speaker 1: external commands. And so with this switch psychiatrists really begin
24:48
Speaker 1: to distinguish between passive aggressive behavior, which most people Caroline
24:54
Speaker 1: and myself included display at times, and a passive aggressive personality,
24:59
Speaker 1: which is that ingrained habitual personality trait. And for one
25:05
Speaker 1: psychological side note, it's also been linked not so surprisingly
25:10
Speaker 1: with narcissistic personality disorder, which itself is associated with fear
25:15
Speaker 1: and the decision making processes avoidance behaviors at work. Yeah, exactly,
25:21
Speaker 1: And because the whole thing with narcissistic personality disorder is
25:25
Speaker 1: you're employing your avoidance behaviors because you don't want to
25:29
Speaker 1: look bad. You think you look great, and you want
25:30
Speaker 1: to keep looking great, and you don't want to do
25:32
Speaker 1: anything that could compromise that um. But with passive aggressive behavior,
25:38
Speaker 1: you're avoiding things for a whole kind of different set
25:41
Speaker 1: of reasons. But it is linked to things in the brain,
25:45
Speaker 1: things like the amygdala, which is key in processing emotions
25:48
Speaker 1: and is linked to fear and pleasure responses both, which
25:52
Speaker 1: is interesting because it's like, you're afraid of something like
25:55
Speaker 1: a conflict, but you also, I wonder do you also
25:57
Speaker 1: then get pleasure out of avoiding it? But anyway, it's
26:00
Speaker 1: also linked to the prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for
26:04
Speaker 1: control and our ability to act in socially appropriate ways.
26:08
Speaker 1: So to me, not being a scientist or a neurologist
26:11
Speaker 1: or anything, it sounds like there's just this sort of
26:14
Speaker 1: tug of war of fear and pleasure and avoidance and
26:17
Speaker 1: conflict all going on. So if we're talking about the brain, though,
26:22
Speaker 1: then that suggests to me that there might be some
26:25
Speaker 1: nature at work with this whole passive aggressive thing. But
26:28
Speaker 1: we also mentioned too the socialization in terms of anger
26:33
Speaker 1: not being appropriate, particularly for girls to exhibit directly, so
26:38
Speaker 1: that suggests some nurture. So what's going on nature versus nurture?
26:43
Speaker 1: Of course, there's a little bit of a shrug when
26:46
Speaker 1: it comes to that. I'm like, well, I don't know,
26:48
Speaker 1: because when it comes to heritability, we're looking at the
26:51
Speaker 1: nature side of things. A two thousand one study estimated
26:54
Speaker 1: heritability among school age twins to that's pretty strong. Yeah,
27:00
Speaker 1: So basically, the higher the proportion of heritability, the stronger
27:03
Speaker 1: the resemblance between parents and kids. And so with a
27:06
Speaker 1: fifty percent heritability proportion, it's not saying that you get
27:11
Speaker 1: your passive aggression from your parents and from the environment.
27:15
Speaker 1: It's more just saying that that it's that likely to
27:18
Speaker 1: be inherited and is actually a pretty high proportion. But
27:22
Speaker 1: of course there's the environmental factor as well, because a
27:26
Speaker 1: lot of these pass regressive behaviors that many books have
27:30
Speaker 1: been written about that therapists talk about to their clients
27:32
Speaker 1: all the time, it's traceable to childhood experiences in parenting,
27:37
Speaker 1: which we're going to talk about more in just a minute.
27:40
Speaker 1: So passive aggressive behavior, even this personality, this pattern could
27:47
Speaker 1: stem from a negative set of experiences linked with things
27:51
Speaker 1: like in effective heart or apathetic parenting, child abuse and neglect.
27:57
Speaker 1: There are I mean, it's really it's sad when you
28:01
Speaker 1: start to read about the links between first starting with
28:04
Speaker 1: the relationship between parents, and then how that impacts the children, right,
28:10
Speaker 1: and then how the children witnessed that relationship between the parents,
28:15
Speaker 1: and how passive aggressive behavior might be modeled indirectly and directly,
28:19
Speaker 1: and how we all absorb those things. And then we
28:21
Speaker 1: grew up to become adults stating a podcast studio, realizing
28:25
Speaker 1: our own tendencies. Yeah, and I mean I was talking
28:29
Speaker 1: to my boyfriend about this and I was saying, you know,
28:31
Speaker 1: I don't specifically remember when I was really young, Like,
28:34
Speaker 1: I don't remember my parents doing anything. We're saying anything
28:37
Speaker 1: specifically that's passive aggressive. But as he pointed out rightfully,
28:41
Speaker 1: so well, if you're this little kid, you don't know
28:44
Speaker 1: any different, you know, you just witness and then have
28:47
Speaker 1: these behaviors modeled for you. But we're reading this chapter
28:51
Speaker 1: in the book Family Treatment of Personality Disorders, Advances and
28:54
Speaker 1: Clinical Practice, and I did. I thought it was so
28:57
Speaker 1: sad reading about the effect that passive aggress of behavior thoughts,
29:03
Speaker 1: you know, speech can have on kids because they are
29:06
Speaker 1: so malleable. We don't have to be the people to
29:09
Speaker 1: tell you that kids pick up on everything. Um. But
29:12
Speaker 1: the authors wrote that quote extreme contradictory parental attitudes and
29:18
Speaker 1: inconsistent training methods um to a degree that's higher than normal. Basically,
29:24
Speaker 1: one parent liking something and the other one doesn't. One
29:26
Speaker 1: parent punishing something and the other one rewards it. That,
29:30
Speaker 1: as you might imagine, leads to a lot of confusion.
29:32
Speaker 1: The child is confused and he doesn't know what to
29:35
Speaker 1: expect from his environment. And if a kid, a little
29:38
Speaker 1: impressionable kid, doesn't know what to expect, then he gets
29:43
Speaker 1: even more confused. He gets scared, he feels insecure in
29:46
Speaker 1: his relationships and in his environment, especially when he feels
29:49
Speaker 1: like he's incapable of influencing his own environment consistently, And
29:54
Speaker 1: so the authors talked about how the kid will then
29:57
Speaker 1: go on to develop a heightened sense of emotionality and
30:00
Speaker 1: ends up opting for ambivalence rather than direct behavior. In
30:06
Speaker 1: other words, the passive aggressive behavior is just passed on
30:09
Speaker 1: down the line. And one of the examples that the
30:13
Speaker 1: authors offered of that kind of contradictory behavior that a
30:17
Speaker 1: parent might display to a child is the verbal expression
30:21
Speaker 1: I love you coupled with a non verbal expression of getaway.
30:26
Speaker 1: Yeah so, and that also leads to what we mentioned
30:31
Speaker 1: a little while ago, in terms of constantly being on edge,
30:34
Speaker 1: searching for those hidden meanings, trying to decode what someone
30:38
Speaker 1: is really saying. Yeah, I mean, okay, So my boyfriend
30:42
Speaker 1: has a deep voice. Naturally, it's actually are you here?
30:49
Speaker 1: It was just it's just me, Caroline christ Okay, that
30:51
Speaker 1: was weird. Um. Yeah, he has this really deep voice,
30:54
Speaker 1: but when he's really tired or he just woke up
30:57
Speaker 1: or whatever, it's even deeper and flatter. So he was
31:01
Speaker 1: telling me the story about how um, when he used
31:04
Speaker 1: to go to this one particular coffee shop really early
31:06
Speaker 1: every morning. He would get up really early for work
31:08
Speaker 1: of straight to the coffee shop and he'd walk up
31:10
Speaker 1: to the barista in order a coffee, and he'd get
31:13
Speaker 1: this look from the person behind the counter, like are
31:17
Speaker 1: you going to have that attitude with me? So he
31:20
Speaker 1: made it a point every morning when he walked in
31:23
Speaker 1: two in his deep voice, say something to the effective
31:26
Speaker 1: like hey, I would like a coffee please, you know,
31:29
Speaker 1: without ending up sounding like he's making fun of the
31:31
Speaker 1: person or being snide um. But he has to actively
31:34
Speaker 1: work on that stuff. And so I tell you that
31:36
Speaker 1: long drawn out story to say that there have been
31:39
Speaker 1: plenty of times in our relationship in which I am
31:41
Speaker 1: very secure and happy when he has said something in
31:44
Speaker 1: that like low tired voice, and I look at him
31:47
Speaker 1: and I'm like, is something wrong? What's going on? Because
31:51
Speaker 1: I just automatically assume that there is some hidden meaning
31:55
Speaker 1: and a lot of things that either he or other
31:57
Speaker 1: people say, if they don't appear to be like totally chipper.
32:02
Speaker 1: It's as though we're looking for the emoticons, you know,
32:05
Speaker 1: just that that assurance that yes, yes, this is this
32:10
Speaker 1: is me smiling even though I put a period there
32:11
Speaker 1: instead of an exclamation point. I'm happy, or or just
32:16
Speaker 1: faking it, I know. One interesting finding, though, is that
32:21
Speaker 1: firstborn children are likely candidates to be passive aggressive. And
32:26
Speaker 1: this is coming from psychiatrists Laurena Benjamin talking to The
32:30
Speaker 1: New York Times, who said basically that when the younger
32:34
Speaker 1: siblings are born, that oldest child might suddenly be expected
32:37
Speaker 1: to take on far more extra work, keeping on more responsibility,
32:42
Speaker 1: and then over time become gradually resentful because of these
32:48
Speaker 1: parental demands suddenly being placed on them, and also I
32:51
Speaker 1: mean less attention and focus being placed solely on them. Yeah,
32:57
Speaker 1: and this really this really hit home for me. Um
33:00
Speaker 1: as far as Benjamin is discussing this idea of hostile cooperation,
33:06
Speaker 1: I mean, how can you cooperate when you're hostile? But
33:09
Speaker 1: that's the core of passive aggressive behavior thoughts, feelings, et cetera,
33:13
Speaker 1: is that you're doing something or you're saying something, but
33:15
Speaker 1: you don't believe it, you don't believe what's behind it.
33:19
Speaker 1: And so Benjamin and other researchers have talked about how
33:23
Speaker 1: passive aggressive people are full of unacknowledged contradiction of angry kindness, compliance, defiance,
33:32
Speaker 1: and covert assertiveness. So that's got to be mentally exhausting,
33:37
Speaker 1: right to constantly have this tug of war between what
33:40
Speaker 1: you're saying and what you're doing. Well, in speaking of
33:42
Speaker 1: the tug of war, a lot of therapists would say
33:46
Speaker 1: that this might come from a parental dynamic where one
33:49
Speaker 1: is dominant and the other is submissive, and the submissive
33:54
Speaker 1: party uses passive aggression in order to deal with the
33:59
Speaker 1: more dominant one while retaining still that dynamic. There's their
34:03
Speaker 1: interesting relationships within the relationship between dependence and independence and
34:09
Speaker 1: dominance and submission, and then how passive aggression sort of
34:13
Speaker 1: we use the colorful tapestry between it all. Yeah, But
34:18
Speaker 1: I mean, if if young children are witnessing their parents
34:20
Speaker 1: exhibit these behaviors, then they essentially learned that volatile or
34:26
Speaker 1: dominant people cannot be directly approached, that they must be
34:29
Speaker 1: dealt with in an indirect, passive manner. But it's not
34:35
Speaker 1: all bad though, right, because about a decade ago, researchers
34:39
Speaker 1: were saying, well, this could also stem from a quote
34:43
Speaker 1: unquote positive place, a positive socially protective instinct, basically saying
34:50
Speaker 1: like it's well intentioned passive aggression of saying I really
34:53
Speaker 1: want to keep the peace. I want to just get
34:56
Speaker 1: through the day. Let's not have any confrontation, no hunt like,
35:00
Speaker 1: everything should be copathetic. So I'll just use these more
35:04
Speaker 1: indirect tactics for that. Yeah, but what's unfortunate. It's one
35:08
Speaker 1: thing if you're grown up trying to be like ha ha, No,
35:11
Speaker 1: this Thanksgiving dinner is perfectly fine, nothing's wrong here. Grandma's
35:15
Speaker 1: not saying anything racist, um, Like, that's one thing. But
35:19
Speaker 1: when it's a child watching this stuff and learning that, oh, well,
35:22
Speaker 1: that's how you interact with other human people. Um, then
35:26
Speaker 1: that's where you get the bad problems that send people
35:29
Speaker 1: to therapy to undo years of thinking that passive aggressive
35:32
Speaker 1: behavior is okay. But yeah, we want to dive into
35:35
Speaker 1: the gender question, of course, because it's us and we're
35:37
Speaker 1: going to regardless. Um. But it's often assumed that passive
35:41
Speaker 1: aggressive behavior is more often diagnosed or just exists more
35:45
Speaker 1: often in women, and what is up with that. There's
35:49
Speaker 1: a couple of different theories behind it. But first of all,
35:52
Speaker 1: we should address what we kind of talked about in
35:54
Speaker 1: our Shine Theory episode, that there is a gender divide
35:57
Speaker 1: for sure in terms of how we experience and express
36:00
Speaker 1: our anger. And this is coming from Melissa Dittman in
36:04
Speaker 1: a paper for the American Psychological Association in two thousand
36:07
Speaker 1: three UM. She cites psychologist Sandra Thomas who asserts that
36:13
Speaker 1: we are all men, women, young, old. We are all
36:16
Speaker 1: poorly served by the gender socialization that we grew up with.
36:21
Speaker 1: Thomas says men have been encouraged to be more overt
36:24
Speaker 1: with their anger. If boys have a conflict on the playground,
36:27
Speaker 1: they acted out with their fists. Girls have been encouraged
36:30
Speaker 1: to keep their anger down. Women usually get the message
36:32
Speaker 1: that anger is unpleasant and unfeminine, and therefore their anger
36:36
Speaker 1: may be misdirected in a passive aggressive maneuver such as
36:39
Speaker 1: sulking or destructive gossip. Now. She also conducted a nine
36:44
Speaker 1: three study looking at the roots of women's anger, which
36:48
Speaker 1: we discussed in an earlier podcast on women and Anger,
36:52
Speaker 1: which would make an excellent follow up listening to this
36:54
Speaker 1: episode if you haven't heard it already, and it found
36:58
Speaker 1: that the main roots of women's anger, and keep in
37:00
Speaker 1: mind this is the early nineties, curious to see how
37:02
Speaker 1: this would change today, but she identified powerlessness injustice and
37:07
Speaker 1: the irresponsibility of other people, which sounds to me like
37:11
Speaker 1: people not putting their dishes in the dishwasher correctly. Yeah,
37:15
Speaker 1: I um, I read that, and I just went to
37:18
Speaker 1: check check check um. And especially in light of our
37:22
Speaker 1: previous episode on obsessive compulsive disorder, when we mentioned briefly
37:26
Speaker 1: obsessive compulsive personality disorder, and whereas an o c D
37:30
Speaker 1: person uh realizes that their thoughts and actions are illogical,
37:34
Speaker 1: the O c p D person thinks that they are
37:37
Speaker 1: right in a self righteous manner. It's like, Okay, I
37:39
Speaker 1: can see how like injustice fits in with that, like
37:42
Speaker 1: the thing that you judged to be in just uh.
37:44
Speaker 1: And then you of course tied in with that you
37:47
Speaker 1: judge other people to be irresponsible. But anyway, um. Overall,
37:52
Speaker 1: according to psychologist Raymond D. Giseppe, there's really not a
37:56
Speaker 1: major difference in men's and women's overall angers or it
38:00
Speaker 1: is just in life, but we do experience it differently.
38:04
Speaker 1: So men scored higher on physical and passive aggression huh,
38:08
Speaker 1: and experiences of impulsivity in dealing with their anger, and
38:12
Speaker 1: they're also likelier to have a revenge motive. Meanwhile, what
38:17
Speaker 1: are women doing? Women were found to be angrier longer.
38:21
Speaker 1: We were found to be more resentful and less likely
38:23
Speaker 1: to express our anger, not so surprisingly, and women were
38:27
Speaker 1: also likelier to write off a higher number of people
38:30
Speaker 1: intending to never speak to them again because of their anger.
38:35
Speaker 1: So like the eternal silent treatment doing the freeze out. Um. Now,
38:40
Speaker 1: of course, there's the theory that has been battered around
38:43
Speaker 1: quite a bit regarding that whole issue of powerlessness that
38:46
Speaker 1: Thomas wrote about. It's that power and balance between men
38:50
Speaker 1: and women that a lot of people assume is that
38:52
Speaker 1: the root of women's resorting to passive aggressive behavior. And
38:57
Speaker 1: so that chapter in the Family Treatment book that we
39:00
Speaker 1: referenced earlier says that the passive aggressive style may be
39:04
Speaker 1: a way for women to avoid the social stigma and
39:07
Speaker 1: rejection that are often associated with women who are seen
39:10
Speaker 1: as challenging or aggressive and advocating for their own needs
39:13
Speaker 1: and wants a k A. The B word, Oh bitch, yeah,
39:19
Speaker 1: that word not badass. And so they go on to
39:23
Speaker 1: say that the fact that this disorder may be diagnosed
39:26
Speaker 1: more in women then in men may be an artifact
39:30
Speaker 1: of therapists immersion in a patriarchal culture rather than a
39:33
Speaker 1: genuine epidemiological gender difference. Oh my gosh, that makes it
39:38
Speaker 1: all seem so inescapable, even even our therapists or are
39:42
Speaker 1: victims of the patriarchy, aren't we all? But you know,
39:46
Speaker 1: I mean, historically people have not been able to agree
39:50
Speaker 1: about whether men or women are more likely to develop
39:53
Speaker 1: passive aggressive behavior. Um and it could have to do
39:57
Speaker 1: with the way that we perceive an action depending on
40:00
Speaker 1: at actor's gender. And in the book Passive Aggression, A
40:05
Speaker 1: Guide for the Therapist, the Patient, and the Victim, Martin
40:08
Speaker 1: Cantor writes about how uh, some authors, for instance, focus
40:12
Speaker 1: on passive aggression in men, or believe that it's found
40:15
Speaker 1: in men more often. Others say that it's more prevalent
40:20
Speaker 1: among women. But he cites one psychiatrist who speculates that
40:25
Speaker 1: the reason for this is that when men display this
40:30
Speaker 1: same passive aggressive behavior that women do, they're judged as
40:34
Speaker 1: being tough minded, sticking to their guns, while those characteristics
40:38
Speaker 1: among women are viewed as bitchy or passive aggressive. So
40:44
Speaker 1: have we unintentionally then gendered passive aggression as a female characteristic,
40:51
Speaker 1: even though throwing back to the origin of the very
40:55
Speaker 1: diagnosis which started out solely with a group of men.
40:59
Speaker 1: Isn't fascinating how we completely flipped the script on our own. Yeah,
41:05
Speaker 1: not to say that I'm trying to have some false
41:07
Speaker 1: competition of like who's the more passive aggressive among us?
41:10
Speaker 1: I mean, we all need to uproot passive aggression from
41:13
Speaker 1: our behaviors. But still, it's kind of incredible how quickly
41:17
Speaker 1: that stereotype developed. But of course, to evolutionary biology has
41:23
Speaker 1: got to weigh in with this because we've talked about
41:27
Speaker 1: power and balance, we've talked about uh anger, the expression
41:31
Speaker 1: of anger directly, and sex differences in physical strength. So
41:38
Speaker 1: what does evo bio have to say, Well that it
41:41
Speaker 1: says well, of course women are more passive aggressive because
41:45
Speaker 1: it's a strategy. It's the only thing that we really
41:48
Speaker 1: have naturally to use because we can't really use our fists.
41:52
Speaker 1: We also have to make sure that we take care
41:54
Speaker 1: of our babies. Yeah, exactly. It's it's the idea that
41:58
Speaker 1: we have to essentially demoralize our competition to take our
42:02
Speaker 1: sexual rivals out of the picture. But we can't go
42:05
Speaker 1: around punching people in the stomach or in the face. Um.
42:10
Speaker 1: And it's also the idea that throughout history you know,
42:15
Speaker 1: obviously our role in childbearing is critical to say the
42:19
Speaker 1: least um and so you know, our cave women ancestors
42:24
Speaker 1: couldn't exactly risk a physical conflict that could hurt us.
42:28
Speaker 1: So instead, we in our loincloths uh turned to shunning
42:33
Speaker 1: fellow cave women. But that in and of itself is
42:36
Speaker 1: almost as bad, if not worse, as fighting, because if
42:40
Speaker 1: you don't have your network of fellow cave mommy's to
42:43
Speaker 1: help you raise your cave babies, then you could potentially
42:46
Speaker 1: die or your baby could suffer. I also, at this point,
42:49
Speaker 1: I'm imagining a cave woman making snarky jokes, snarky passive
42:53
Speaker 1: aggressive jokes, and it is kind of funny, but it
42:56
Speaker 1: jumped out to me though. In one of the papers
43:01
Speaker 1: putting this putting forth this theory by Tracy Vincourt, and
43:05
Speaker 1: it was published in Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society
43:09
Speaker 1: B in two thousand thirteen, she wrote, quote, human females
43:14
Speaker 1: have a particular proclivity for using indirect aggression. She just
43:19
Speaker 1: lays it out there, basically saying, like, ladies, this is it.
43:22
Speaker 1: We are. We're at the passive aggressive ones because of
43:27
Speaker 1: our intra sexual competition. And we also this is a
43:31
Speaker 1: study too that came up in our slut Shaming podcast
43:35
Speaker 1: as well as our Shine Theory podcast. All these things
43:37
Speaker 1: are sort of interacting in a or intersecting, I should say,
43:40
Speaker 1: in a really interesting kind of way, because I mean,
43:44
Speaker 1: it really is a slippery slope to sexual policing and
43:48
Speaker 1: slutt shaming. Yeah, exactly. But I'm going to go ahead
43:52
Speaker 1: and say that I think that is a bunch of
43:53
Speaker 1: junk because passive aggressive behavior, you know, on its own,
44:01
Speaker 1: is easily uprooted. It is easily combated, and don't worry,
44:05
Speaker 1: we'll arm you with some tactics to uproot it. But
44:08
Speaker 1: I mean, I think if you look at the way
44:10
Speaker 1: that we're socialized, that has so much to do you know,
44:13
Speaker 1: either man or a woman, male, female, whatever, um, the
44:18
Speaker 1: way that you're socialized has so much to do with
44:20
Speaker 1: the way that you express anger. And if you are
44:22
Speaker 1: someone male or female, young or old, who has been
44:25
Speaker 1: told that expressing anger or conflict in a certain way
44:28
Speaker 1: is bad, you're not going to do it that way.
44:30
Speaker 1: You're going to seek that more indirect route. And so
44:34
Speaker 1: I have to disagree with the EVO bio. Yeah, I
44:37
Speaker 1: always want to take evo bio and evo psyche with
44:39
Speaker 1: a grain of salt, just because it doesn't seem like
44:44
Speaker 1: a lot of those theories can and I don't think.
44:47
Speaker 1: I think in the evolutionary biologist listening to be cringing
44:49
Speaker 1: saying that's not the point to apply it like to
44:51
Speaker 1: our day to day lives today. But if we move
44:55
Speaker 1: into the working world, for instance today in our twenty
45:00
Speaker 1: century environments, out of the caves and into the corporate landscape,
45:06
Speaker 1: researchers found that men are just as likely to use
45:10
Speaker 1: indirect aggression. Yeah, and this is a point that was
45:13
Speaker 1: mentioned in that evolutionary biology theory paper that Christen was
45:19
Speaker 1: talking about. Uh and it echoes thesis by University of
45:23
Speaker 1: South Florida student basically that men and women are just
45:26
Speaker 1: as likely to use passive aggression rather than active, especially
45:30
Speaker 1: in the workplace. Um They found that workers and employers
45:35
Speaker 1: reports of the workers aggression on the job didn't match
45:38
Speaker 1: up compared to supervisor's reports. They say, female employees self
45:43
Speaker 1: reports tended to be higher in all eight of the
45:47
Speaker 1: types of aggression in the workplace that were measured, whereas
45:51
Speaker 1: male employees self reports were only higher in passive workplace
45:56
Speaker 1: aggression than their supervisor's reports. Male supervisors, on one hand,
46:00
Speaker 1: were found to report more of their subordinates verbal, direct, active,
46:04
Speaker 1: and interpersonal workplace aggression than female supervisors, and male employees
46:09
Speaker 1: were reported by their immediate supervisors to engage in more
46:13
Speaker 1: active workplace aggression. So I'm just wondering if maybe that women,
46:19
Speaker 1: we think that we're being aggressive by being passive aggressive,
46:23
Speaker 1: and so we just assume that we're higher and outrageously
46:26
Speaker 1: so in all of these different types of aggression, but
46:29
Speaker 1: in actuality, it's either not being picked up on by
46:32
Speaker 1: the supervisors because it is so under the radar, or
46:36
Speaker 1: because passive aggressive behavior is so hard to pin down
46:39
Speaker 1: and say like, oh, well, you know, Jennifer did this,
46:42
Speaker 1: this and this. It's it's hard to report and so
46:44
Speaker 1: it just doesn't get reported. It seems like at this
46:47
Speaker 1: point the research on passive aggressive behavior, like looking at
46:51
Speaker 1: it in men versus women, and how we interpret it
46:54
Speaker 1: is still rather muddy, because how we perceive our own
46:57
Speaker 1: behavior is different from how other people perceive our behavior
47:01
Speaker 1: is been influenced by gender, is been influenced by nature.
47:08
Speaker 1: It's complicated, Caroline, It's a little bit complicated. But the
47:12
Speaker 1: good news with all of this is is that the
47:15
Speaker 1: tools for recognizing and dealing with passive aggressive behavior, both
47:19
Speaker 1: in others and in yourself is a lot more straightforward,
47:23
Speaker 1: wouldn't you say? Yeah, it is, And I think you know,
47:26
Speaker 1: I have already started practicing a lot of these things
47:28
Speaker 1: in my own life. And and a big one is
47:31
Speaker 1: to just whether you are the aggressive or the passive
47:34
Speaker 1: aggressor or the person who is on the receiving end,
47:37
Speaker 1: A big thing is to just identify the behavior to
47:39
Speaker 1: nail it down. And so if if you are the
47:44
Speaker 1: victim of a passive aggressive set of behaviors, you need to,
47:49
Speaker 1: like we said, identify the behavior and look for the
47:52
Speaker 1: person's avoidance of conflict at all costs. Uh, feeling like
47:57
Speaker 1: you're being put into never win scenarios like you're always
48:00
Speaker 1: wrong and she's always the victim, constantly having to placate
48:04
Speaker 1: the person by telling him what he wants to hear,
48:07
Speaker 1: or being subjected to endless strings of complaints that she's
48:10
Speaker 1: just misunderstood. And once you kind of identify that the
48:14
Speaker 1: person you're talking to is using passive aggressive behavior, it's
48:19
Speaker 1: really time to rethink your own Have you contributed to
48:22
Speaker 1: the conflict have your actions escalated the confrontation. But okay,
48:27
Speaker 1: so once you've gotten through that, you really should silence
48:29
Speaker 1: that voice in your head that's telling you that you
48:32
Speaker 1: are responsible for the passive aggressive person's words or actions,
48:36
Speaker 1: because hello, you can't change people, So don't let yourself
48:41
Speaker 1: be manipulated in the process of that. It's important to
48:45
Speaker 1: stay calm, don't respond with your own passive aggression because
48:50
Speaker 1: oh my goodness, to passive aggressive people in a fight,
48:53
Speaker 1: it's that was maddening. That was my entire life living
48:57
Speaker 1: with dude roommate. Love him however, however, um and also,
49:02
Speaker 1: don't attack the person because that's only going to sort
49:07
Speaker 1: of let the other person win in a way, because
49:09
Speaker 1: you're going to come off as that dreaded authority figure.
49:12
Speaker 1: So you disarmed the passive aggression with direct honesty and
49:18
Speaker 1: focus on the real issue and recognize that it is
49:22
Speaker 1: hostility and a type of power struggle. And so instead
49:27
Speaker 1: of freaking out that you're in a power struggle, just
49:29
Speaker 1: set limits and boundaries and follow through. It is a
49:31
Speaker 1: little bit it sounds like taking a higher road, stepping
49:36
Speaker 1: up owning your own you know, owning your own actions.
49:39
Speaker 1: You only have control over yourself and doing as much
49:43
Speaker 1: as you can do to sort of guide the other
49:46
Speaker 1: person through that. Yes. So, for instance, when I was
49:50
Speaker 1: researching for this episode and I was talking to my
49:52
Speaker 1: boyfriend about it and how I recognized a whole lot
49:54
Speaker 1: of this passive aggressive behavior and myself, Um, we talked
49:58
Speaker 1: a lot about it, and we've taken to sort of
50:01
Speaker 1: not checking in. That sounds too like clinical and regimented.
50:04
Speaker 1: But you know, if I seem off for whatever, for
50:07
Speaker 1: whatever reason, he might check in. Um. But instead of
50:09
Speaker 1: fretting the whole afternoon, if I'm mad at him or whatever,
50:13
Speaker 1: or uncomfortable with something, I've asked him to please take
50:17
Speaker 1: me at my word. I'm going to work hard to
50:18
Speaker 1: be direct. And so if you think that something's wrong, sure,
50:21
Speaker 1: ask me about it. Um. But if I say no,
50:24
Speaker 1: nothing's wrong, um, you know, take me at my word.
50:28
Speaker 1: We've we've got to kind of hold each other to
50:29
Speaker 1: that directness. Well, and that leads us to the issue of, well,
50:33
Speaker 1: how do you deal with your own passive aggressive behavior.
50:37
Speaker 1: You're establishing new patterns for yourself challenging yourself to be direct.
50:42
Speaker 1: Is that when you say you're fine, he can trust
50:45
Speaker 1: you that you are fine. And you kind of have
50:46
Speaker 1: to own up to that on the other side of
50:49
Speaker 1: that trust relationship as well. Now, there was one study though,
50:54
Speaker 1: real quickly that I was looking at, highlighting how there
50:57
Speaker 1: has been scant research on a active psychotherapy for passive aggression.
51:03
Speaker 1: Um there is cognitive behavioral therapy which is commonly used,
51:07
Speaker 1: which is just the general stuff of learning how to
51:09
Speaker 1: monitor your thoughts and recognizing when you're angry, challenging and
51:13
Speaker 1: examined assumptions about confrontation, identifying when your actions are disconnected
51:17
Speaker 1: from how you actually feel. In other words, just kind
51:21
Speaker 1: of being honest with yourself and staying in touch with
51:24
Speaker 1: what is really going on instead of falling back on
51:28
Speaker 1: the crutch that passive aggression can become. Yeah, and just
51:33
Speaker 1: sort of that drive to avoid drama, because when somebody's
51:38
Speaker 1: passive aggressive in a relationship and the other person doesn't
51:40
Speaker 1: know what going on, that just automatically stirs up a
51:43
Speaker 1: lot of drama. It's so much better to just be
51:46
Speaker 1: direct and if you're upset, just express why you're upset,
51:49
Speaker 1: and and recognize that passive aggressive behavior is a form
51:53
Speaker 1: of self sabotage, because when all you're doing is blaming
51:56
Speaker 1: other people, for your own failures or shortcomings. You don't
52:00
Speaker 1: get the chance to figure out for yourself what you
52:03
Speaker 1: actually want and except that anger isn't bad and confront
52:08
Speaker 1: your fear of conflict. This has been a big thing
52:11
Speaker 1: for me in terms of, like, well, how do I
52:12
Speaker 1: process and express my anger because I don't want to
52:16
Speaker 1: freak anybody out. But at the same time, I mean,
52:20
Speaker 1: there are certain theories too about how like and you
52:22
Speaker 1: can use anger to your benefit, And this is one
52:26
Speaker 1: of those examples because directly and calmly stating why you're
52:29
Speaker 1: upset is okay and far more productive than trying to
52:33
Speaker 1: mask it and skirt around it and sort of funnel
52:37
Speaker 1: your anger into someone else so that they can get
52:39
Speaker 1: angry so that you can then be in the defensive position. Right.
52:44
Speaker 1: I know it's so twisted, But speaking of twisted, part
52:49
Speaker 1: of your therapy or part of your own self discovery
52:52
Speaker 1: might just be revisiting those childhood scenarios and realizing that
52:57
Speaker 1: your relationship with your parents or their relationship with each
53:00
Speaker 1: other does not have to be the model for all
53:04
Speaker 1: of your relationships, whether that's with a partner or an
53:07
Speaker 1: authority figure or a friend or whomever. I mean, I
53:10
Speaker 1: my parents. Definitely. I mean, if you're going to talk
53:13
Speaker 1: about somebody being dominant and somebody being submissive and the
53:16
Speaker 1: other person being passive aggressive and the other person being direct,
53:19
Speaker 1: I mean, they definitely trade off. They're like pros at
53:23
Speaker 1: trading off. One person being passive aggressive in response to
53:25
Speaker 1: the other person's like domineering behavior in one arena and
53:29
Speaker 1: then it switches in another arena. Um. But ah, it's
53:33
Speaker 1: so refreshing to just repeat to yourself that you don't
53:36
Speaker 1: have to be your parents and that you can kind
53:39
Speaker 1: of dig down into your own psyche, whether that's just
53:42
Speaker 1: by yourself again or just you know, with a therapist
53:45
Speaker 1: and uncover the roots of this behavior and set your
53:48
Speaker 1: own new healthy patterns. And maybe for women listening to
53:53
Speaker 1: reminding ourselves that a stereotype is a stereotype, we don't
53:57
Speaker 1: this doesn't have to be our weapon choice. And for
54:01
Speaker 1: men listening who have women in their lives not you know,
54:05
Speaker 1: remembering that keeping that in mind as well in order
54:09
Speaker 1: to recognize their own passive aggressive behavior. Because I know
54:12
Speaker 1: some fellas whom I hold very dear to my heart,
54:15
Speaker 1: and I see them being passive aggressive as much as
54:18
Speaker 1: I can be passive aggressive. So what do you think, though, Caroline,
54:22
Speaker 1: to wrap it up, what do you think about that
54:24
Speaker 1: ultimate question though, of our women more passive aggressive or
54:29
Speaker 1: is the stereotype simply a product of our gendered interpretation
54:34
Speaker 1: of passive aggressive behavior. I think it has way more
54:37
Speaker 1: to do with the gendered interpretation of of anger and
54:42
Speaker 1: expressing it and living through it. I mean, I think that,
54:45
Speaker 1: you know, it really goes back to the way that
54:47
Speaker 1: we are socialist, in the way that we've been socialist
54:49
Speaker 1: false centuries to to act a certain way. I mean,
54:53
Speaker 1: it wasn't until the late twentieth century that people started going, oh,
54:58
Speaker 1: maybe women do get angry. Well, a light bulb justment
55:03
Speaker 1: off of my head, Caroline. So maybe it's not that
55:07
Speaker 1: women are more passive aggressive, but that it is more
55:10
Speaker 1: socially acceptable, whether we like it or not, for women
55:13
Speaker 1: to be passive aggressive versus being outright angry, because we
55:17
Speaker 1: would expect that more of guys because from the time
55:20
Speaker 1: that they are little boys, a lot of times they're
55:22
Speaker 1: socialized to solve conflicts directly and sometimes with their fists
55:27
Speaker 1: and with their anger, and girls are told to be
55:31
Speaker 1: prim So I think, well, yeah, and I think whoever
55:34
Speaker 1: you are male, female, masculine, feminine opting to be honest
55:39
Speaker 1: and direct while being calm, I think is the better
55:43
Speaker 1: answer when when it comes to anger and upset feelings
55:47
Speaker 1: and drama and avoiding drama. Um, I think being direct
55:51
Speaker 1: can only benefit relationships. And now we have a direct
55:55
Speaker 1: request for you, dear listeners. We want to hear from
55:58
Speaker 1: you about passive aggression. Did s ring as many bells
56:01
Speaker 1: for you as it did for Caroline and me, whether
56:04
Speaker 1: it's in your own life or in a relationship, or
56:09
Speaker 1: in someone who is in your life a boss, a boyfriend,
56:14
Speaker 1: a mother, a father. Let us know mom Stuff at
56:18
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com is our email address. You
56:20
Speaker 1: can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages
56:23
Speaker 1: on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages to
56:25
Speaker 1: share with you all right now, Well, I have a
56:34
Speaker 1: letter here from Sadika in response to our Kink Week episodes.
56:38
Speaker 1: This one is on b D s M. Specifically, she says, Hi, ladies,
56:41
Speaker 1: I wanted to say thanks for all of the awesome
56:44
Speaker 1: content you create as a lady of color within the
56:46
Speaker 1: b D s M community. It felt really nice to
56:49
Speaker 1: have someone not only acknowledge women of colors involvement but
56:53
Speaker 1: also race play. It also felt nice to hear about
56:56
Speaker 1: other feminists who are part of the kink community. After
56:59
Speaker 1: I feel accepted that I'm a submissive, I felt an
57:02
Speaker 1: ache leave me and allowed me to be better as
57:04
Speaker 1: a person. I became more open minded and empathetic. Once again,
57:09
Speaker 1: thank you for your work, y'all rock and so do you.
57:12
Speaker 1: Thanks for your letter. Well, I have a letter here
57:15
Speaker 1: from Sunny about our Kink Week episode on the Professional Dominatrix,
57:20
Speaker 1: and she writes, I really enjoyed Kink Week on stuff
57:23
Speaker 1: Mom never told you. I think it's really easy, particularly
57:26
Speaker 1: for vanilla people who aren't involved in the lifestyle and world,
57:29
Speaker 1: to turn kink into something to joke about or awkwardly
57:32
Speaker 1: tipped to around, or even outright judge. I really appreciate
57:35
Speaker 1: the effort to take the subject seriously and to keep
57:38
Speaker 1: an open mind about it all. As for the question
57:41
Speaker 1: you pose about how people in the lifestyle feel about
57:44
Speaker 1: celebrities and media co opting and reappropriating our subculture personally
57:49
Speaker 1: strong emphasis on personally. I think that when it's done
57:53
Speaker 1: to honestly celebrate sexuality and encourage creativity and exploration, rather
57:58
Speaker 1: than purely for sensationalism and titilation. I'm fine with it.
58:02
Speaker 1: I'm of course ecstatic when it's also done well. I'm
58:07
Speaker 1: really only truly offended when the lifestyle is treated as
58:10
Speaker 1: complete fiction, where literally none of our culture or rules
58:14
Speaker 1: or practices are respected, and one is treated like a joke.
58:17
Speaker 1: No one must to be someone's punchline or caricature, where
58:20
Speaker 1: you're treated as more of a stereotype than a person.
58:23
Speaker 1: Too often, when we're depicted in the media, kinsters are
58:26
Speaker 1: portrayed as either monsters or victims were seen as less
58:29
Speaker 1: than human. Where the crazy X who was psycho nuts
58:32
Speaker 1: but a wild ride and one hell of a one
58:34
Speaker 1: up sex story. Or where the damaged victim who gets
58:38
Speaker 1: raped or abused because we wandered too far from the
58:40
Speaker 1: normative path and into deviant stuff we shouldn't have and
58:44
Speaker 1: needs to be saved or cured. Or where the dead
58:47
Speaker 1: body left humiliated and strung up like a cross between
58:50
Speaker 1: bad gallows humor and left over holiday decorations in the
58:53
Speaker 1: middle of a crime scene. Again, we'd never allow artists
58:56
Speaker 1: to get away with that one portraying other types of people.
58:59
Speaker 1: What may said okay when they do it to us,
59:02
Speaker 1: but when the portrayal has done honestly with respect and research.
59:05
Speaker 1: It feels validating even though it's not me either. Depicting
59:08
Speaker 1: from a TV screen or movie screen or computer screen
59:11
Speaker 1: far far away, it feels like being seen and having
59:15
Speaker 1: talked to my friends. I know. The more the kinsters
59:17
Speaker 1: are honestly portrayed in the media, the easier it is
59:19
Speaker 1: for vanilla people to understand that their preconceived notions may
59:22
Speaker 1: not be the whole truth. The more visible we get
59:25
Speaker 1: to be in the media as who we really are
59:27
Speaker 1: rather than what too many people think we are or
59:30
Speaker 1: want us to be. The better anyway, thank you for
59:33
Speaker 1: the podcast. As always, you treated your subjects with respect
59:36
Speaker 1: and produce wonderful results. Well, thank you for the wonderful letter, Stunny,
59:42
Speaker 1: and keep the letters coming. Mom. Stuff at how stuff
59:44
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59:46
Speaker 1: all of our social media as well as all of
59:48
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59:53
Speaker 1: to all of the research on passive aggressive behavior so
59:56
Speaker 1: you can learn more. Like Caroline and me, head on
59:58
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1:00:06
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