Latest / Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield / Anger Over TMO Debacle, Rassie’s Bomb Squad or Fart Squad? Wallabies "No Chance" vs. Lion

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Anger Over TMO Debacle, Rassie’s Bomb Squad or Fart Squad? Wallabies "No Chance" vs. Lion · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

0:00
It's nice bands.
0:02
Thank you mate.
0:04
I like how you've got that like normally it's a white shirt, white glasses, black shirt, black glasses.
0:10
Now you've gone for the contrast look.
0:12
I like that you actually put some thought into that.
0:15
You don't?
0:16
No.
0:17
Top of the pile mate, whatever's at the top of the pile.
0:20
Right, welcome to rivals again.
0:21
Got Sir John Kerwin and Victor Mattfield, who's in a different place every week.
0:24
Let's say tonight's show is brought to you by the letters T, M and O.
0:30
Okay, you already got a scale going on.
0:33
You were too happy with the TMO across the weekend.
0:36
Well, if you're an all black fan, you couldn't be too happy with the TMO in the game.
0:41
On Saturday, right?
0:42
I thought it was a really good game or rugby.
0:43
I loved it actually.
0:44
You know, Victor mentioned a couple of weeks ago that he thought France were the front runners for winning the next World Cup.
0:51
And if that's their second or third side, they are going to be a very, very, very, you know, a very, very complete 35-man World Cup squad, which means, you know, the winner of the World Cup squad.
1:03
You've got to have people coming off the bench that are as good as those on the field.
1:07
And that's certainly going to do that.
1:09
My frustration was I thought the all blacks were very good in the stick and half with position and tidied up there.
1:15
You know, their errors.
1:16
So for me, the TMO issue is this.
1:18
Right?
1:19
And I made it, I made it drawing for you.
1:21
Right?
1:22
So.
1:23
Does the TMO know no different defensive patterns?
1:26
Right?
1:27
So what happened when the tri was just allowed because they said that what they asked you to see, like, interfered.
1:44
That was rubbish because defense was man on.
1:48
Right?
1:49
So you see that?
1:50
So TOS is coming straight forward.
1:52
But the defenders coming straight forward.
1:54
Okay?
1:55
So he's coming straight forward into this space.
1:57
Posse then breaks.
1:58
And they contact.
1:59
But that defender had no, no, no idea about drifting off.
2:04
So the other defensive pattern is a drift pattern.
2:06
Right?
2:07
See that one, Ricardo?
2:08
Not that you ever tackled in your career, but that defensive line is when you get into trouble.
2:15
Because if TOS is coming this way and I'm drifting and I'm trying to cover him and the next guy off, then I can drift.
2:24
This situation here.
2:26
Right?
2:27
That wasn't the case.
2:28
That was the case.
2:29
This was the case here.
2:31
So what happened also was once it got to Jordy Barrett's hands.
2:36
Right?
2:37
The guy that was supposed, both supposedly in French, didn't even try and drift off.
2:43
But Jordy passed it as well.
2:45
So they scored 30 yards away.
2:47
There was absolutely no infringement whatsoever in the rules of the game.
2:53
Now, if Tossi runs forward on the inside shoulder of this guy here,
2:59
let's say he runs to that shoulder there and impedes him from moving across,
3:05
even though he wasn't doing drift offends, then I get it.
3:08
But for me, that was a complete and utter TMO era.
3:12
Now, the second one, the second one was Proctor.
3:16
Like, what is the rule?
3:18
Do you know what the rule is Ricardo?
3:19
Yeah, no separation.
3:21
No separation.
3:22
There was like that much separation.
3:24
He had complete control of the ball.
3:26
You remember that?
3:27
You remember that?
3:28
Try that who scored it for South Africa Victor?
3:31
Who scored it?
3:33
The hooker Bongi.
3:34
And there was separation in that and he put it down and scored.
3:37
What do you think, Victor?
3:39
Like, what do you think of the TMOs across all games on the weekend?
3:42
So on the defense, there was John.
3:45
People must understand the things.
3:47
I think sometimes to make a decision.
3:50
I've seen in the balls where a guy runs a great under's line.
3:54
I mean, the defender comes in from the outside.
3:57
I mean, he hits him on the inside shoulder,
3:59
so he was never going to drift.
4:00
He made the decision to come in.
4:02
He wasn't stopped because of the guy running that line.
4:05
It was a good line.
4:07
He was scored with the move or the dummy move.
4:09
That can even be obstruction because he's on the inside shoulder.
4:12
And I think that was what they need to understand.
4:14
I think South Africa, one of the problems why South Africa struggled
4:20
is because it was such a slow game.
4:22
I think South Africa went into the game against Italy.
4:26
They wanted to be pacing again, wanted to score a lot of points.
4:31
And unfortunately, because every decision needs to go up to the TMO,
4:36
it made the game so slow.
4:38
It was again over two hour game.
4:40
That's what we want to see.
4:42
The TMO should come in.
4:43
It's really needed.
4:45
Or they must make the call much quicker.
4:47
But again, I think two decisions, two wrong decisions, first drive,
4:51
JC Creel.
4:52
I think he was about to meet in front of the ball.
4:54
I saw it when it happened in the game.
4:56
He was in front of the ball.
4:58
I went to the TMO, some of them don't have an angle,
5:01
and they're safe now, try on the field.
5:03
They say, the angles are good enough.
5:05
You can see he's in front of the ball.
5:07
And then the second one was also obstruction.
5:10
We took our score.
5:13
Beautiful try.
5:15
And again, in the middle, what's in shape?
5:18
Yes, he was in the defensive line, and they came positive.
5:21
We know the defender run into.
5:23
He was behind the ball carrier.
5:24
How can you have an obstruction when you're behind the ball carrier?
5:27
And they didn't allow that.
5:28
Try, I think that was just after half time.
5:31
And that brought a big change in that momentum of the game in the squad,
5:35
because just after the injury went in school.
5:38
But for me, a bigger problem was the amount of time that they wasted in the game
5:45
because they went to the TMO almost on every decision.
5:48
And you just can't get any momentum.
5:50
You want momentum in a game.
5:52
You want to blow off the game.
5:53
You want to make the other team tired.
5:55
And then you want to put them under pressure.
5:57
But if they go to the TMO, they stop it every two minutes.
6:00
And Italy was slowing the game down.
6:02
They were sitting down the whole time.
6:04
I think then you can't get into the game.
6:07
So there seems to be a change in emphasis,
6:10
rather than just picking up what's clear and obvious.
6:13
The TMOs are looking almost like forensically for any problem they can find.
6:17
And that seems to be something that's coming to the international season
6:21
and something we were warned about.
6:23
Do you think that's good for the game?
6:25
Well, I've got two problems, Ricardo.
6:27
No, it's not good for the game.
6:28
Exactly what Victor said.
6:30
So in the last two years,
6:32
everyone, including the World Rugby,
6:34
have been talking about speeding the game up.
6:36
Right?
6:37
Speeding the game up.
6:38
Yes.
6:39
No more dead time.
6:40
It seems to me that, like,
6:42
are the chairman and Joel George talking to each other?
6:45
Because it seems to me that the refs are doing what they want.
6:49
Whereas the whole game said, let's speed it up.
6:51
And yet the referees this year come out.
6:53
Right?
6:54
And it's not the referees fault.
6:56
It is Joel's judge fault.
6:58
And the chairman of World Rugby's fault.
7:00
Because they need to send down directors.
7:02
Right?
7:03
So if the TMOs intervenes because Joel's judge who is the boss is saying,
7:07
let's do this.
7:08
And that's the problem we've got.
7:10
So I want to know what our new chairman is doing about actually,
7:13
you said you were going to support speed the game up.
7:16
I mean, you asked Mark Robinson.
7:18
I'd bring him every two weeks.
7:20
He assured me.
7:21
J.K. that, you know, the committees is together.
7:23
And that's speed the game up.
7:24
It's so much better.
7:25
Fast the scrum.
7:26
You can hear the rest saying, come on, guys.
7:28
Speed it up.
7:29
Come on.
7:30
Let's go to the scrum.
7:31
But then you've got the referees deciding,
7:33
oh, we're going to be really picky about what we're doing.
7:36
So we're going to have two hour rugby game.
7:38
Right?
7:39
That is absolutely ridiculous.
7:40
So my question to World Rugby is,
7:43
are you guys talking or does Joel's judge just get together and say
7:46
with his other referees, oh, this is what we want to do?
7:49
And if he's gone with, oh, this is what we want to do,
7:51
what is our chairman doing about saying, no, guys,
7:54
we're speeding the game up.
7:55
You have to take some of that stuff out.
7:57
So here's what the TMO needs to do.
7:59
It hasn't worked.
8:00
The TMO has not worked.
8:02
What we need to do is get back to the ref making a decision.
8:05
And if he needs the TMO, he goes up to him.
8:07
And that's what needs to happen.
8:09
And it needs to happen fast.
8:11
I don't want to watch another game right there.
8:13
I mean, the one thing that irritates the living hell out of myself
8:17
is, I mean, there's a big screen in a stadium.
8:19
A big screen is there for everyone to use from anywhere on the pop.
8:25
Then they go to the decision.
8:26
Then their referee runs 100 meter closer to the TMO,
8:30
takes him a minute ago.
8:32
Then they start and runs.
8:33
And that's another two minutes that we, if he was on the spot,
8:37
there is someone in the TMO that's sitting in front of the screen,
8:39
let him make a decision.
8:41
And I mean, 90% of the time, again, clear and obvious.
8:45
So if they're considered on the first stage,
8:47
just go on with the decision that was made.
8:49
But now we're taking three minutes to make a decision.
8:52
I mean, the guys will start warming up again on the side just to get back in.
8:56
I mean, that's one part of the game.
8:58
The other thing interesting for me too, Victor, is that, you know,
9:02
the coaches who should be our biggest influence are not saying anything
9:06
for respect of the game and respect for the referees.
9:09
And don't get me wrong, Ricardo.
9:11
This is not about the referees.
9:13
The referees are doing their job.
9:15
And the TMO is also doing their job, right?
9:17
They are implementing what the leadership want.
9:20
Besides, I believe that TMO, not understanding defensive patterns
9:24
and not actually understanding that role properly.
9:27
That's his bad.
9:28
And, you know, we all make mistakes.
9:30
So he should get better.
9:31
This is a directive from above.
9:33
So this is the chairman of World Rugby and Joel Judges' responsibility.
9:37
And they are messing with the game.
9:39
It has not worked.
9:40
So when are we going to decide that the public are frustrated?
9:44
And okay, it's not working.
9:46
So let's just tone it back a bit.
9:48
It really frustrates me.
9:49
Because the product's good, Victor.
9:51
I don't know.
9:52
I don't know if you agree.
9:53
But when we're playing rugby at the moment, the product is really good enough.
9:57
In that French game was a really, really good game.
10:01
I agree.
10:02
I agree with you about the South African game.
10:04
I mean, your bomb squad turned it into a fart squad.
10:07
Victor, they didn't work at all.
10:09
I mean, I wouldn't like to be in Russi's camp this week,
10:14
because he'll be pretty pissed off.
10:16
That bomb squad still playing this weekend.
10:19
Playing having a break.
10:20
Yeah.
10:21
But if you're one of those older guys, Victor, you know, Russi's a smart man.
10:25
So he's played just about his best, very team.
10:29
And they haven't performed.
10:30
So now he's got every right to put younger guys in, to put them under pressure.
10:34
It's actually, it's actually genius because you don't win.
10:38
You do win.
10:39
You don't wear well.
10:40
Back then you really get to put pressure on the team.
10:43
But to be fair, I thought the Italians were good in the second half.
10:46
But yeah, the game was slow when we don't want to slow game.
10:49
Yeah, it's difficult because you must know that bots are under pressure.
10:53
They need to win by 50 points to be a positive result for them.
10:58
So, I mean, even Andre Pollard with his gold kicking didn't take all the time.
11:03
He was getting back kicking it, zogging back because, but then they run back.
11:07
And then all of a sudden, there's a TMO decision again.
11:10
And it slows it again.
11:11
And I think that just because I'm much pressure on the team that really want to go out,
11:16
go play positive, frappery if it's a stop-stop gap.
11:19
So there's something we need to sort out.
11:21
But maybe to the point about Russi, the team got out yesterday.
11:27
And exactly what you see.
11:30
He picked a young team.
11:32
I think he showed all the guys you've won two World Cups.
11:36
But if you're going to again, your attitude's not there.
11:39
These young guys that want to do a job.
11:41
And he's backing the young guys to go out there and do a job.
11:44
And that would put a lot of pressure on the older players that's won two World Cups.
11:49
To say, listen, if I still want to be there for the next World Cup,
11:53
I need to pitch up.
11:54
Because it's easy to pitch up when you play the old Blacks.
11:57
It's easy to pitch up when you play France.
12:00
But when you play Italy at home, that's been Russi going to see attitude.
12:05
You want to see the guys pitching up for every game.
12:08
Jack, I just give me, you sort of touched on it a little bit.
12:12
A little bit disappointed with you, Victor, not having any drawings or diagrams
12:16
to back up your stories.
12:17
But one of the old Blacks is going to learn from that first game against France
12:21
that they can put into the game this weekend.
12:23
Well, I think that for me, and South Africa where there's actually the same,
12:27
what happens in your first test match is that you're coming up with combination errors.
12:32
So, you know, the errors, the errors in the first half were not good enough.
12:38
I think their position, their movement off the ball in the second half was good.
12:42
I think the biggest concern for us is northern hemisphere rucks versus southern hemisphere rucks.
12:48
You know, I think the competency of ruck, and I think this could be the case in the Lions series as well.
12:57
Like the northern hemisphere rucking is way different.
13:01
And I think the French were really competent in that space.
13:06
So, for me, I think the learnings are, you know, we need to be really, really accurate.
13:10
And Super Rugby, and this is an abstract question.
13:14
And I know Victor, you're watching more northern hemisphere now.
13:18
But is Super Rugby as close to test match rugby as it used to be?
13:23
And my answer is no.
13:25
So, I think northern hemisphere semifinals and finals is closer to test rugby.
13:31
I think that different sports, you know, I love Super Rugby.
13:35
It's open and flying.
13:36
But is it preparing us for those critical moments at test rugby?
13:40
And my answer is no.
13:42
But I think, John, I don't think it's just this year.
13:46
I think it's always been like that.
13:48
I remember back in 2004 in J.T.S. to cover.
13:54
We played Super Rugby, we did well.
13:56
We even went into the Rugby Championship or Trinations back then.
14:00
We won the Trinations that year.
14:02
Then we went up to the UK and we got smashed at the break time.
14:07
And J.T.S. isn't really like men against boys or boys against men.
14:12
You know, physical enough.
14:13
But it's unfortunately, I think when you play something for South Africa,
14:19
when you play these teams, especially when they're bit negative.
14:23
And I remember France just wanted, they didn't think they're going to win.
14:27
They just wanted to keep the score low.
14:29
Yes, at some say, they said, oh, we're in this gap.
14:31
Italy is the same.
14:33
They were going at the breakdowns, trying to slow it down.
14:36
They almost couldn't do only two guys at the break time.
14:40
You need to put more numbers in.
14:42
You need to be there much earlier.
14:44
So you need to put a much bigger focus on that breakdown.
14:48
It's going to be like in Super Rugby.
14:50
Sometimes good characters won't clean any out of there.
14:53
Because they put a lot of attention to slowing down that ball at the break time.
14:58
Yes, so I think for us it's adjusting, you know, Fabian Holland.
15:02
I don't know if you saw him go, Victor, but I think he's going to be, you know,
15:06
the next Brody Ritalak.
15:07
I'm really happy we've got a big body there.
15:09
You know, you pick, you only pick a couple of wingers and then one gets injured after a couple of minutes,
15:13
which throws, you know, which throws that whole conversation about the bench.
15:18
But, you know, I think, I think the learnings are, you know, eras.
15:25
Let's tidy up our breakdown.
15:27
And let's, you know, let's get rid of TMOs so that you get scored those two tries.
15:33
You win by, you know, 15 odd points.
15:36
And it's a different week.
15:38
But I think both South Africa and New Zealand won't be unhappy.
15:42
You know, the coaches won't be unhappy that they had the performances they had.
15:47
As long as you win, then as a coach, you can psychologically work with your team.
15:51
So I think both coaches will be secretly happy.
15:55
You know, Scott Barrett, Scott Barrett being an injury is an issue.
15:58
You know, he's a leader by example.
16:00
He does a lot of that hard grind.
16:03
So, you know, I think they'll miss his leadership.
16:06
Are he stepping into that space?
16:08
I think Rico, an interesting article in the paper, Victor.
16:12
He hasn't played wing for four years and he said, well, you know,
16:15
the wing positional has really changed.
16:21
And so I think the biggest thing for me when I looked at South Africa game
16:25
and our game, besides South Africa not performing very well,
16:28
I don't think was the pace.
16:30
You know, do we have that out and out, and out, and our outside backs to compete
16:34
with South Africa?
16:35
That's why I was really interested about Leroy Carter, you know,
16:38
the flyer from the Waikata.
16:39
I thought it'd be in there.
16:40
So interesting for me to see what we do.
16:43
If we're going to play a game that creates, you know, more strength from our wingers
16:48
rather than that finishing speed because the South Africans look so quick outweigh.
16:53
And what do you think, did Rico, your honny moves work or not?
16:57
I think he's got a little bit to do.
16:58
I think he's got a little bit more adjustment to do.
17:00
You know, I think the wingers now need to be really competent chasing the ball
17:04
and being competitive in the air.
17:06
You know, you look at your guys in South Africa.
17:08
They're so quick across the ground.
17:10
They're getting to the high ball and competing in the air.
17:13
So I think if Rico looked at his game, you know, I'm a huge fan of Rico.
17:17
I think, you know, he's been an amazing all black and continues to be so.
17:22
And being able to change at that level, I think his high ball chasing and contesting in the air,
17:30
you know, they'd want to see some improvement there.
17:32
And what I'd like to see him do is work a little bit more off the ball
17:36
and come in and use his feet when the forwards get a little bit tired.
17:40
But, yeah, I think did it work?
17:43
Would he be happy?
17:44
No.
17:45
Would he get better?
17:46
Yeah.
17:47
I mean, I like Proctor as well.
17:49
I like, I think Proctor's got some real, real, you know, real ability there.
17:54
And the other thing that really surprised me, Victor, was how Jody's come back after playing a whole season
18:00
and was one of the best out there.
18:02
So, you know, I thought that was interesting as well.
18:05
And he'll be interesting.
18:06
You know, if I was, and I'm sure they're doing this.
18:08
So, you know, if I'm, if I'm, you know, if I'm, raise a Robinson, I'm sucking Jody's brains
18:16
about what you're doing in the Northern Hemisphere, you know, what you're doing and training,
18:19
what you're doing, rack time, what you're learning, that sort of stuff.
18:22
Well, Victor, what do you think the learnings for, I love that we're learnings.
18:26
It's very important that Rusty's taken out of that test match.
18:30
I think again, like I said earlier, I think it's just a very difficult test match for South Africa.
18:36
We've never been like all blacks that go out and we smash teams by 60-70 points.
18:44
We do prefer the pressure games that's closer.
18:49
We can actually put pressure on other teams, force them to play more, play off their turnovers
18:55
and Italy didn't do that at all.
18:58
So, they slow the game down, they kept on kicking the ball.
19:01
I mean, even when they were 14 on down, they took their three points.
19:06
So, does it difficult?
19:07
Yeah, but the team that you picked as well, I think that was a team for a pressure test match.
19:13
This weekend, we went with the young guys, we got Williams back at 9, we got Moni LeBoc at 10,
19:20
Validio at 15.
19:22
Those guys said, likes to play the open game and likes to keep the ball into space.
19:27
Probably not as good as Andre Pollock.
19:30
We're kicking it, we're this kicking game, putting other teams under pressure.
19:35
But they can play the game, they can run the balls.
19:38
I think we'll see a much bigger score.
19:40
I think the one thing that did disappoint Russy was that ball score coming on.
19:46
Then, I mean, more try, 20 meters out, Italy scoring the more try against South Africa.
19:53
Russy won't allow that.
19:55
I mean, you'll never be happy with attitude.
19:58
Attitude is the biggest thing for Russy.
20:01
He doesn't mind what the guys feel of the field.
20:04
But once I own the field, if it's a training field, or it's a test match,
20:10
it's all about work rate and what you put in.
20:13
I think, again, if you look at some of the plays individually, they didn't play bad.
20:17
The same one came on two, three great offloads that lead to tries.
20:22
But as a unity, it doesn't work.
20:24
And unfortunately, for a few of those guys that came off the bench,
20:29
they didn't play very well in the URC.
20:32
They're getting older.
20:33
Are they still good enough?
20:35
The questions are going to be asked now.
20:37
So, I think they're going to look to proof.
20:39
And like I said, Russy said, listen, I'm giving the youngsters a go now.
20:43
And if the youngsters do really well this weekend, they put so much pressure on that older players.
20:48
And like John said, I think it can be a mind game as well.
20:51
To make sure there's all this players.
20:54
Just know, listen, you won't stay in this team just because you want to work up.
20:59
And because you've got a relationship.
21:01
I need performance out of you on the pitch.
21:04
But I like the team that we've picked, especially the backline change quite a bit.
21:09
Well, he's playing in the 100th game.
21:13
I like Aiden Muria of 30th.
21:15
I know he's not playing there.
21:17
He's getting an opportunity next to Andrea Estrazen in the centre,
21:22
next to a morning level.
21:25
So, that combination can be very interesting.
21:28
That's the same combination that played against all blacks just before the World Cup.
21:34
That really did well.
21:36
How can it be a combination for the future as well?
21:39
That's the biggest risk.
21:40
Your biggest risk when you win World Cup, like South Africa, is being loyal to some of the old guys.
21:46
And, you know, players don't retire anymore.
21:50
Between World Cup, they retire after World Cup.
21:53
And, you know, I think 91, you know, we probably had five or six players that were hanging on to the World Cup and should have retired.
22:02
I think there was a familiarity from coaching staff and players, you know.
22:09
And I've seen it, you know, right across the board at World Cups.
22:14
You try and get to the World Cup with some of these guys.
22:17
And it'll be very interesting to see if Russia's got the courage.
22:22
Because it's courage, because, you know, he's a relationship guy.
22:26
People respect and love him.
22:28
And it's hard to drop a player who you care for and you think's amazing.
22:33
But you will lose a World Cup.
22:35
If you take a football team that is just past its best.
22:38
And I reckon it's the hardest decision a coach has to make.
22:41
You know, I said this is the year that Russia will almost have to make that decision.
22:47
Is there maybe three or four guys that won't be able to make it?
22:52
Use the new players that you want to get in there.
22:55
That you want some of those younger players to be in the leadership group
22:58
where you're going to stuck with the older leadership group.
23:01
So, these are all decisions to be made.
23:04
But I know like Russia always said, the guy's good enough if he pulls his right.
23:09
I mean, still, we talk about all the guys.
23:11
But they, I mean, a guy like J.C. Creel has kept him.
23:14
There's no one working harder than him.
23:17
He's getting older but he's still working harder than anyone else in that dirty jersey.
23:21
I mean, you've been exhibiting Lwede Jaffa.
23:24
I mean, you've been restoring that first line, chasing balls.
23:27
Lwede Jaffa and the balls went on their ground.
23:29
He was the guy diving.
23:30
So, I think there's still some of those guys that can do it.
23:34
Yes, I think said there was maybe an attitude thing.
23:37
And when you get older, John, you know it.
23:40
It's easy to get yourself up for the big act.
23:42
So, it's not the problem.
23:44
It's when you, sometimes when you get back from a test match,
23:47
you have to pray for your provincial team, or your club team,
23:51
and you play on this field with these like 10,000 people, hard field.
23:55
And it's difficult to pick yourself up.
23:57
And I think this stage match was like one of those stage matches,
24:01
where it was really difficult to get himself physically 100% ready for the game.
24:06
And mentally, they thought, listen, they're going to run away with it.
24:09
And then it doesn't happen in a game.
24:11
Then it gets difficult.
24:12
But like I said, for us, you would be into them.
24:16
And maybe like you say, maybe you will probably enjoy it that it can get stuck into them.
24:21
To show them again, listen, I need attitude from you guys.
24:24
I'm not going to back you just because you've won two World Cup's Unicube,
24:29
performing the field, and you need to show me what you can do.
24:32
And that you still be there in this young system for your position.
24:35
Would you ever change the bomb squad, or the fat squad as I call it last week?
24:39
Would you ever change that now?
24:42
Would you go back to traditional bench?
24:45
You know, that was appropriate.
24:47
I think it's something he believes in.
24:50
He believes those five forwards together makes a huge impact.
24:55
The question that we need to ask ourselves is, do we still have,
25:00
let's take two front rows or four laps?
25:03
That's exactly on the same level.
25:06
Or is there a team in a B team?
25:09
Because if there is a team in some of the cars are a little bit better than the B team,
25:13
then you want to push those cars for longer.
25:16
But if they really, the same level, they compete at the same level.
25:21
In the week, you can't see who's the A and B team.
25:23
Then you can have the bomb squad making a difference.
25:26
And you can give them a lot of time.
25:28
Because actually, interesting this week was Japan versus Wales.
25:33
It didn't change one of his style five.
25:35
You played all of them 18 minutes.
25:37
They pushed through and they came through and won the game at the end.
25:40
No replacement set.
25:42
Congratulations to Victor.
25:44
That's a great win, mate.
25:46
I love when Japan wins, obviously, you know, with my history with them.
25:49
I just think it's fantastic.
25:51
Wales are really, really, really.
25:53
What's that?
25:54
They're 18 for 19 to feet in a row.
25:56
I think that's a really good point, Victor,
25:58
because I reckon one of the unsung heroes at the moment
26:02
for the All Blacks and a guy who I believe in the last two years
26:05
has transformed his consistency of game.
26:09
And that's Cody Taylor.
26:11
I think Cody Taylor is the best locker in the world at the moment.
26:15
Not only for his accuracy around his throwing,
26:18
and I won't even talk about scrum Victor,
26:20
because I don't know anything about that stuff.
26:22
But, you know, just around the field,
26:24
his flexibility, his acceleration,
26:27
and I always feel that I wouldn't want to take him off.
26:31
Like, they bring him off, and I just think,
26:33
why?
26:34
He looks like he doesn't even look like he's at the end of his game.
26:37
But, you know, I guess that's the sort of stuff that, you know,
26:41
it's all part of tactics rather than fatigue, I guess.
26:44
Yeah, he's been playing really well,
26:46
and I mean, if he's your best locker,
26:48
and he can go for 18 minutes,
26:50
why won't he replace it?
26:52
But, if there's someone there that's really close,
26:55
maybe just got a different style
26:58
that you want to bring on to the field.
27:00
A lot of the time, you've got probably one hooker
27:02
that's a bit more sick, please driven.
27:04
I mean, if you look at Ireland,
27:06
where she in and kill it,
27:10
they two different hookers.
27:12
So, it's all how you want to use them.
27:14
Can they make a difference when they come off the bench?
27:17
But, I mean, Cody is playing really well at the moment.
27:20
But, give me a little insight into Willie LaRue,
27:23
you know, playing 100 tests.
27:25
You know, I've been a fantastic servant for South African rugby.
27:27
Just give us a bit of an insight into him as a player.
27:29
Yeah, Willie is actually an amazing story.
27:32
He comes out of a very good school in South Africa.
27:35
Then he almost, not disappear,
27:38
but I mean, he went to one of the smaller unions.
27:40
He went to go play for Brueland.
27:45
Where most of the players,
27:47
most people, they don't get their feet.
27:50
I went to the request for two years,
27:52
just to get opportunity.
27:54
I really went to the Brueland,
27:56
got picked up there, got seen.
27:59
And, I think if you look at Willie,
28:01
there's probably certain things where people say,
28:04
how did he get to 100 games?
28:06
But, he's got a skill set that no one else got in South Africa
28:10
for a very long time,
28:12
where he could identify space
28:16
and he could get the ball to the space.
28:18
Either by passing, by kicking,
28:21
and he's a guy that communicates very well.
28:24
So, when we played with him,
28:26
I think he had, like, the most triassist in World Record.
28:29
He was just unbelievable.
28:31
When he got that ball, two and two,
28:33
he could just pull that last guy in,
28:35
then put the wing away.
28:37
And I mean, he's technical kicking,
28:39
especially attacking kicking,
28:41
it's unbelievable.
28:43
So, I think in South Africa,
28:45
the one guy that could really identify space
28:48
and he could get the ball to that space.
28:51
And, yeah, like I said,
28:53
most triassists, I think, are in South Africa.
28:56
Right, I just, we brushed over Japan a little bit,
28:59
but, you know, that was a magnificent performance.
29:01
Great line-outs, actually.
29:02
I thought the line-outs were exceptional,
29:04
probably the key factor of the game.
29:07
You must have been really proud of that performance
29:09
as someone that's been involved with the team vector.
29:12
Yeah, it's great.
29:14
Just come back from there.
29:16
They also got a new Japanese guy
29:18
looking after the line-outs.
29:20
I work a little bit with him,
29:22
but the guy said he really works hard.
29:25
He played for Japan as well.
29:27
But the one thing with Japan at this stage
29:30
is they're starting to build this side,
29:33
especially the starting 15
29:35
that can really compete with anyone in World Record.
29:39
I mean, if you look at their scrumming,
29:42
Owen Franks is working with them.
29:45
It was from a weakness
29:47
to where they're getting scrum penalties at the moment.
29:50
They can do long scrums.
29:52
They back their own scrum.
29:54
That set up a lot of opportunities
29:56
to play for first space from the scrums
29:58
because the other pack needs their use forging.
30:02
So, I mean, if you can sort out
30:04
their set pieces like we've done now.
30:06
The scrum is really strong.
30:07
The line-outs is becoming a strength.
30:10
Still, the break time was in the grandest weekend.
30:13
There's something they really work hard on.
30:15
And then I think Dan Balden is probably
30:17
one of the basic tack-outs that I've worked with.
30:21
It's really a useful opportunity.
30:24
It's the flow of the game.
30:25
Now he gets people to run into the ball
30:28
instead of just standing still unbelievable.
30:31
So, I think they got things in place, things in place there.
30:35
They had to sort out some of the defensive errors
30:38
from last year.
30:39
That took much better.
30:40
There's more line-speed.
30:42
So, yeah, it's just about building their decks now.
30:45
Like I said, they've got a big tight five.
30:48
They've got loose forts, a tent carry.
30:51
They've got a very good midfield as well.
30:54
There's a little bit of game management.
30:57
I thought, and gave my opinion,
31:00
I thought we'd played too much rugby last year
31:02
with Japan.
31:03
I mean, we had the most running meters.
31:06
We had the most breakdowns,
31:09
most line breaks of all the international teams,
31:12
but we lost games.
31:14
So, it's just about where you play your rugby
31:16
and how you play it,
31:17
and how you manage your energy as well.
31:19
So, that's something, I think,
31:21
that was also a big shift in Saturday's game.
31:24
Where they played rugby, now they didn't.
31:26
Just a little bit more game management,
31:28
but you don't go one and go away
31:30
from the Japanese style.
31:32
We say, just so good rugby.
31:34
It must be quick rugby.
31:35
That's what Japan is about.
31:37
So, we need to keep that as well.
31:39
Although the game management, I think, can be a little bit better.
31:42
And, Jack, we talked about Willie Leroy.
31:44
Just give me a bit of an insight into Michael Leach.
31:47
I picked Leach when I first went there.
31:50
He was playing at university.
31:52
Really, really interesting, interesting man.
31:55
You know, New Zealand, Fiji,
31:58
brought up in Christchurch, decided to make a decision
32:01
to go and study in Japan at the age of 13.
32:05
But he went to Hokkaido,
32:07
which is the northern, you know, up by Russia.
32:11
And I saw him playing at university,
32:13
and just, you know, he's got the athleticism of a Fiji in.
32:19
And, you know, growing up in Japan,
32:22
he was incredibly well disciplined as well.
32:25
So, very smart young man,
32:28
and just worked really, really hard from the beginning.
32:31
And so, he was one of those guys,
32:33
a bit like Sergio Padisi.
32:34
When you're trying to build a football team,
32:36
you get some of these young guys,
32:38
and you know they're going to make some eras early,
32:40
but you just play them because they're good enough.
32:42
So, you know, I played him pretty early in the piece,
32:45
and he showed incredible longevity, you know.
32:49
You know, they've left him out a couple of times, Avicta.
32:52
You know, he left him out, but then he's just kept on working,
32:55
and you know, he works incredibly hard.
32:58
And when he's in your team, you're just a bit of team.
33:02
You know, I think, you know, one of the great things about Richie McCall
33:06
was the ability to change.
33:08
And I think Leechy Victor has had the ability
33:11
to also change his game a wee bit,
33:13
evolve a wee bit with time as he's got a bit older.
33:16
So, I don't know.
33:18
I think Michael Leech is one of the guys
33:21
that the most respect for him, wall-drappy.
33:25
When I arrived there last year,
33:27
I mean, we lost against him in 2015,
33:30
knew a little bit about him,
33:32
spent quite a bit of time with him.
33:34
And like Jayka is saying,
33:36
he's just, he's a lean in that country,
33:38
everyone's looking up to him.
33:41
He works harder than anyone else.
33:43
I had to go and talk to him as well,
33:45
because he wants to be the first one on the pitch.
33:48
He wants to be the last one off the pitch.
33:50
And I'm like,
33:51
Richie, you're getting a little older.
33:52
You have to manage yourself a bit of a record.
33:55
He needs to be there till the end,
33:57
because that's a Japanese culture,
33:59
and he needs to live from the front.
34:00
So, he keeps doing that.
34:02
Eddie and they're not trying.
34:04
They wanted to push him into the second row,
34:06
so I've been keeping him.
34:07
He's not a second row.
34:08
He's a back row.
34:09
They didn't play six, eight,
34:11
wherever you want him.
34:13
And I mean, I looked at his steps this weekend.
34:16
It was unbelievable.
34:17
I think he made 19 tackles, 12 carries.
34:20
I think eight of them are positive carries.
34:23
So, he just keeps on playing like a young man.
34:27
And I mean, he's the decision making on the field.
34:30
He doesn't make errors.
34:32
So yeah, he's a fantastic guy.
34:34
And that team needs him as a leader as well.
34:37
When he's in that team,
34:39
the team has 50% better.
34:41
I'm going to ask you now about another team
34:44
that wasn't overly impressed on the weekend,
34:48
but was up against a really, really strong FGN side
34:51
that was probably also disappointed by the TMA.
34:54
So Australia, how do they prepare for the Lions
34:58
after a game like that?
35:00
I've been looking at Australia,
35:02
and a lot of Australian positivity has actually been hype.
35:07
We've been talking about how much better they've got.
35:10
You know, there's not going to be a whitewash,
35:13
the Lions, you know, the Lions is going to be tough now.
35:17
So they really disappointed me on the weekend
35:20
because I was expecting a way better, a way better result.
35:25
You know, they started well, I think,
35:27
but when you look at the way they started,
35:29
but then they were quite fragile in defense.
35:33
I mean, FGNs are the best attacking team in the world, right?
35:37
And Mickey Burn has got them well-organised as well.
35:40
I think, you know, you spoke about that balance there,
35:43
and I think that's one thing that Mick Burn was talking about last year.
35:46
If you can get the FGNs to play the right balance,
35:48
they can beat anyone, right?
35:50
And especially up front if they can compete up front
35:53
and stay in the game that's hard to beat.
35:58
So I've gone back on my confidence
36:01
on whether Australia is the team that we all think they are.
36:04
So, you know, where I think New Zealand and South Africa
36:10
come away and the coaches go,
36:12
yeah, look, there was enough real good stuff in the second half.
36:15
If you're New Zealand, you go second half,
36:18
we're really dominated.
36:20
You know, we should have won by 20.
36:22
We didn't move on.
36:23
South Africa, you know, but sloppy.
36:25
We're all over them.
36:26
Then we let them slow the game down.
36:28
Blah, blah, blah.
36:29
Whereas I just didn't see a really, really good performance
36:33
from Australia.
36:34
So, I think that they're in trouble for the Lion series
36:38
to be fair after that result.
36:40
Yeah, I always say is,
36:42
if you're a team, you must know how are you going to win big test matches.
36:47
And I still doesn't know if Australia has found it.
36:53
I mean, in the Gregan and Auckland area,
36:56
we knew it was by face play, quick ball,
37:00
front-foot ball.
37:01
That's how they play.
37:02
We know how the whole Blacks win.
37:04
We know how South Africa win.
37:06
What's the Australian way at the moment?
37:08
And I think they don't have a way,
37:11
or they don't have something where they can say,
37:14
listen, we're the best at a certain part of the game.
37:17
So, it's always going to be difficult.
37:19
I mean, the Lions are looking good.
37:22
Every team that they put out there,
37:24
you think, wow, this is a strong team.
37:27
So, it's going to be very difficult to Australia.
37:30
I just hope for the Lion series, they are competitive.
37:34
But yeah, it's difficult to see how they're going to beat the Lions.
37:39
So, you've watched the Lions.
37:41
You've watched Australia now.
37:42
If you were just going to,
37:43
let's just put the Lion in the sand.
37:45
So, with you, J.K.,
37:47
what do you think the series results going to be based on what you've seen so far
37:51
going into this test?
37:53
Two-one.
37:54
Two-one.
37:55
So, I think Australia will win a test of them.
37:56
I think the Lions will win the first test.
37:58
I need to see the first test, right?
38:00
Because I think the Lions, for everything we've spoken about,
38:04
you know, Victor is so right.
38:06
When you watch Canterbury play, right?
38:08
You know how Canterbury are going to win.
38:10
Right? This is the provincial side, obviously.
38:12
You know, the Crusaders.
38:13
You know how they're going to win.
38:14
When they're under pressure, they're going to kick you to the corner.
38:17
They're going to mold you.
38:18
They're going to get some penalties.
38:21
They're going to crush you.
38:22
When you make a mistake, they're going to, you know,
38:24
and Victor's right, I can't see that in, you know,
38:28
in the Australian side.
38:30
I can see that all over the park in the Lions squad.
38:34
You know, they've got guys who know how to win tough test matches.
38:37
You know, we underrate the six nations.
38:39
The six nations is probably one of the hardest,
38:43
tactically decision-making competitions to win.
38:48
Right? So, they know how to win.
38:50
I think that, you know, the Lions are win the series
38:54
and two, and then the Aussies are win the last one.
38:56
Yeah, it will be interesting.
38:58
I also thought two, one.
39:01
It's always difficult getting yourself up for that last game.
39:04
We are the same.
39:06
Normally, make a lot of changes.
39:08
But I just think there's so much quality.
39:10
And even if he makes changes for the last test match,
39:14
I think the Lions might be too strong.
39:16
So I'm going to go Lions 3-0.
39:18
Woo!
39:20
And what did you think? I mean, obviously,
39:22
the Lions got pushed a little bit by on the weekend.
39:26
So, you know, could better test for them rather than running away from it.
39:30
I think what Victor said is probably the difference.
39:34
You know, I think the Australian 15 is, you know,
39:38
as competitive as it can be.
39:40
But I do think the Lions have 35 players
39:42
that can actually play at that level.
39:45
So I think the biggest, I think the biggest decision, you know,
39:49
for Farrell is selection and getting those combinations right.
39:53
And that's what he'll be working on.
39:55
I think the inconsistency in their performances at the moment is just understanding
39:59
that, you know, the 80 minute implementation of how Farrell and the coaching staff want to play.
40:05
And I still think that thinking a lot about it,
40:09
a lot of the stuff rather than just implementing it.
40:13
And each week as that goes by.
40:15
You know, if I was Australia,
40:17
I wouldn't have agreed to all these games.
40:19
Stuff that I would have given them a cup of shit games
40:21
and then checked their butts.
40:23
But the more games you're giving them,
40:25
the better they're going to be, better coach, better, you know.
40:29
Yeah, and I still think you'll go back to the island spine.
40:35
I think almost the backbone of the team.
40:39
I think for Russell, I'll show you that you will probably be the team.
40:42
But the race of it will be very island driven.
40:46
They've been successful in New Zealand.
40:48
They've been successful every way, every way they do it.
40:52
So they know how to win.
40:54
Just not to work out with all the others they know how to.
40:58
So, yeah, I think they get to be very difficult to beat
41:02
because they know how to win big taste matches.
41:04
And I mean, this quality plays from England,
41:08
I mean from Scotland that you can add to the island team.
41:14
So, it's really a strong everybody's team this year.
41:20
Alright, just a finish.
41:22
What's going to happen in your team's international on the weekend
41:26
and what's the score going to be?
41:28
Start with you, Victor.
41:30
Yeah, I'm excited.
41:32
The team that they've picked,
41:34
Karagana, Thomas and Tuey back.
41:36
We did really well for both.
41:38
Probably one of the players of the tournament in the premiership.
41:44
We probably got the biggest runner up with ever picked
41:47
because Thomas, Malcolm and Walker are low starting then.
41:51
Two young, locked skating opportunities.
41:54
But the backline that they've picked is very exciting.
41:59
I think with Marnie, they believe Sasha
42:02
that will come on in a second half and Williams at night.
42:06
So, I think it's a team that's made more for this type of game
42:10
where everyone is expecting us to beat them by 50 or 60 points.
42:14
So, I think this will be a good weekend for us,
42:19
I think the team that we've picked is perfect for this game
42:23
and it should be a big, big victory.
42:26
J.K., what do you think is going to happen with the All Blacks France
42:28
and give me a score at the end?
42:30
Yeah, look, I think Les Eras, Ricardo.
42:33
I think I really enjoyed the movement in attack off the ball.
42:38
I think there was a lot of good movement.
42:41
I think they'll be way more competent.
42:43
I think the French have got the respect they needed after the first test.
42:46
I think the All Blacks are won by 20.
42:48
We'll finish on that.
42:50
And at the moment, the rivals are all of us against the TMOs.
42:55
I want some discussions.
42:57
I want a faster moving.
42:59
The new chairman said that he was going to make change
43:02
and I haven't seen that yet.
43:03
So, I want him to step in and start moving
43:06
about when things aren't working,
43:08
rather than waiting for committee.
43:10
So, he needs to step up into his role
43:12
because it's frustrating me that we're not moving fast enough
43:15
when things don't work.
43:17
So, you reckon that all he needs to do is get on the phone,
43:19
ring Joel and say, hey, tell your TMOs to back off.
43:22
Totally.
43:23
It's as easy as that, Ricardo.
43:25
It's as easy as that.
43:26
Pick up the phone.
43:27
Hi, I'm your boss.
43:29
Listen, we're being a little bit too finical at the moment.
43:33
You know, we're being too, let's just back off, big fella.
43:36
Send the note round to the boys.
43:38
Goodbye.
43:39
Well, that's what Victor would do.
43:43
Just give him the right mandate.
43:45
Let him go.
43:46
Do it.
43:47
Fix it.
43:48
I know.
43:49
And one of the things that a great leader will do is lead the way.
43:54
And, you know, we've talked a lot about ice baths on the show.
43:57
You're leading the way in taking ice baths to the next level.
44:01
Can you explain what you were doing?
44:03
Because I think that's one of those places where they put dead bodies.
44:06
Yeah.
44:07
So, after Victor inspired me by putting, at least putting his legs in
44:10
from his ice bath last week, we ended up with the Japanese side.
44:14
I decided to go with my son who does cryotherapy, right?
44:18
And I first heard about cryotherapy.
44:21
I mean, Warren Gatlin took the whole Welsh team over to Russia or somewhere
44:25
and chucked them in this, like, fridge at minus 80.
44:29
So, I tried it yesterday with my son.
44:32
We both did a bit of it.
44:33
He does it for his football, and I thought I'd give it a whirl.
44:36
It was, yeah, very, very interesting, Ricardo.
44:39
It's a bit scary to be fair.
44:42
Wow.
44:43
Did she kings?
44:44
That was really different.
44:46
Cryotherapy.
44:47
Wow.
44:49
I don't think it was as, it wasn't as hard as a nice bath to be fair.
44:53
It wasn't as hard.
44:54
It was a little bit easier.
44:55
Have you done cry, Victor?
44:56
I've done it once in, when I played Northampton.
45:00
And I also think it's easier to get in.
45:03
Because you're just walking.
45:05
You've got gloves on.
45:06
Then you walk in there.
45:08
But also, just that it once and I said I'm definitely not doing it again.
45:12
That's me.
45:13
Thanks for coming.
45:15
I'll go to the beach in the sun, it's better to recover it.
45:23
With your brandy and cola.
45:25
Yes.