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Mentorship · Conversations with Dad

• mbrownstein3485: Lou dead. We are recording this in September. And the last time we recorded this, it was June. So it's been a while. We were we took a summer break vacation for the podcast. And we I was lucky enough to be able to ⁓ spend a few days with you and and mom and Michael and Jess and and and their families and our family. And we got to have some conversations and it was nice to talk to you. without a recording, but also as a reminder just how nice it is to be able to I don't know, create an an artifact that we can come back to. So ⁓ excited to do that again with you. So one of the things we were talking about the other day was just this idea of mentorship and you know what it what it's like to realize that you want a mentor, what a mentor is for, ⁓ your own personal experiences with it. So was hoping that we can talk some more about that. Okay. So wondering if if you You know, definitely want to hear your own experiences and your own relationship to it. But I think it'd be cool just to start by hearing you say something about, you know, when you're thinking about just like the the concept of mentorship, you know, what what is it? ⁓ and why and you know, what is the potential value for it for people? and yeah, maybe it's just we'll start there. Well, I guess I relate to mentorship in somewhat in different ways under different circumstances. ⁓ so I didn't really I think mentorship kind of fills a need, a void that ⁓ someone provides you when you Maybe sometimes when you don't even realize you need it, but then also sometimes when you when you're looking for it. You know you you follow what saying? Yeah. So I think when, you know, you could so w what do you mean by mentorship? I mean what you know, what ⁓ is it when you're drawn to someone and you want to emulate them? That's a certain type of mentorship. ⁓ and that could happen ⁓ without even your awareness. You know, when you're ⁓ you know, a kitten, you know, and you're starting to recognize, you know, the importance of social connections and you and you're following, you know, you you want to be friends with someone because you like where they're coming from. So that's kind of a mentorship. I mean I mean you might see in in your child at a certain point that like they they they're ⁓ They're ⁓ expressing different kind of behavior that you may or may not like. And where are they getting that from? It's probably s they're probably emulating, copying someone, and in a way that's they're mentoring that per that that person is being me ⁓ mentored to them in a sense. But sure. You know, and then ⁓ But I I feel that I really didn't ⁓ start ⁓ any type of relationship to that in a real way until I was in college. And it and it f and it really kind of it was almost as if I was needing something, looking for something that I wasn't, I didn't recognize. But when I But when I came upon a certain person, it immediately resonated with in terms of filling that void. Now I can get into that more. And then afterwards it happened when I was in, you know, when I was in practice and I wanted to have a certain type of ⁓ you know, I wanted to ⁓ have a certain relationship. And ⁓ I would see people who felt that void. Yeah, the connection is just kind of being fun funky. So so that was also ⁓ a a time when I was that was a more kind of ⁓ practical, ⁓ less psychological, spiritual ⁓ kind of mentorship. But it was it was very it was that was also very important. Like there were some and sometimes in that situation I didn't really necessarily look at that person as a mentor, but in certain situations, but they would say something, and it it was based upon all of years of practice. So I might have gotten one pearl from that person after being with them for you know a decade. But in a sense, I looked at ⁓ in a way, that to me is also in the category of mentorship. ⁓ so You want to me to zero in on anything more where that's concerned? Yeah, I think something that is coming up for me is that there is there's something there are some conditions that need to be in place in order for a person to be receptive and ready for mentorship. ⁓ know, it there's an acknowledgement that there's something you need to learn, which oftentimes, at least for me, is the hardest to admit probably during the times where I need to learn the most. So I'm wondering For you, what what are some of the what are some of the mindsets that kind of what was necessary for you in order to and necessary for anyone, you think, ⁓ in order to find a mentor or to be open to one that comes your way? Okay. So again, in what circumstance? Now are you talking like if you met an experienced teacher who seemed really smart and ⁓ you know, is kind maybe they're an administrator and they have a reputation. I mean, might you hang on their every word? And in a sense, they're kind of you're open to them being a mentor because you're, you know, while you, you know, have been in the field a while, I I would think at this point you're still probably open to, you know, ⁓ voids that you might see in ⁓ in your ⁓ you know, experience as a principal. So are you talking in that sense? I I mean that kind of almost happens, ⁓ you know, unless y yeah, I mean there is that sense, right. But if you're talking about a more emotional kind of mentor or a more spiritual kind of mentor, I mean that while they're both mentorships and that's kind of why I was getting into it, I I almost kind of feel that's a bit of a a really a bit of a different thing. Cause again, when you're in a career You value mentorships and you you know, like I'm sure a lot of people emulated Steve Jobs, you know? Sure. 'Cause he was like this, you know. And you know, these people were young, they were brilliant, but they didn't really make a mark like he did. So they were just kind of it wasn't like a it wasn't even like it was it I I imagine it would be really a you have to be really arrogant to not be ⁓ in awe of Steve Jobs and if you're in his presence, you would be open for him to be your mentor. So there is that. ⁓ and I would think that, you know, if you, you know, if you came upon someone who wasn't a threat to you to your ego and he was a really good principal or a really good educator, you would be drawn to that. It really wouldn't take much, right? Right. But I think you're not talking about that kind of mentorship. 'Cause we're usually not that open. First of all, I mean, if you were in a situation and there were a lot of people who who you consider to be on the same plateau, it might be harder for you to appreciate what another person said, especially if they acted like an asshole to you. You know, so there is that. But I think when you're talking about psychological, spiritual, it's it's kind of a different thing. And is that kind of what you're referring to? More so? Yes, I I don't really know. I think I I don't think I don't think I I can't comfortably say I've ever had like a an official mentor in the way that you're describing it. I mean I mean I think I think in so many ways you've been a mentor for me both professionally and spiritually and psychologically but like this idea of like a a journey that takes me somewhere Whether it's in a professional a professional path, spiritual, or maybe one that kind of transcends both. Like I don't I think the people that I'm attracted to are and people who I want to emulate, they reflect a path that I'm interested in. And I don't think I can really separate between the professional and the spiritual. Like so for instance, like if you know, I'm not I'm not I'm not as good at like playing the game, especially especially in the budget world in in leadership. So if there's someone who's like really good at doing that, you know, I I'll I'll learn from them. But just but if but if their you know if their values and their intentions and their like ways of showing up for people, like if it doesn't if it du if it doesn't align with me in like in a deeper way, I you know, I wouldn't consider that a a mentor. It would be someone who I'm just like learning some things from. Yeah, so right, there is that. And and in a way, I think that could be the case. I think more often with me, that has been the case in terms of professionally. Yeah. You know, you might you might see someone who is able to who has that one piece to the puzzle that you kind of need. Right. and it's And that might be ⁓ yeah, I don't know if ⁓ I mean that might might be kind of ⁓ Yeah, I I don't really know intimately ⁓ You know, the professional situation where you have these overriding mentors. And it might be, I mean, ⁓ there seems to be ⁓ you know, a lot of times people in ⁓ you know, very wealthy people have huge egos and it just kind of, you know, ⁓ inviting that kind of ⁓ relationship. But I remember in terms of ⁓ kind of a more psychological ⁓ life ⁓ encompassing mentor, I felt that when when I was in ⁓ in college and I did feel a bit adrift in terms of ⁓ I mean actually when early on I mean I tried ⁓ let's say ⁓ Judaism as a practice which is more you know spiritual or religious type of thing and even though I I had been in situations where I was exposed to ⁓ you know, knowledgeable people, nothing ever resonated. Nothing ever I I never it's very possible if I came upon someone who was knowledgeable and dynamic and just like ⁓ I'm checked off all the boxes, I might have gone that path. But I just never ⁓ it never happened. But when I was in ⁓ college, you know, there was someone in turn you know who kind of touched all those ⁓ checked off all those boxes. So I, you know, just tried to take as many courses with this person as possible. And then ⁓ I got involved in Tai Chi. And then it ended up being this ⁓ you know, kind of ⁓ Grujeffian like group. ⁓ but but it I was I wasn't looking for a mentor, but I was open to a mentor. And that's kind of where ⁓ that was at. What's interesting though is when you hear about, I mean, there are just so many cases of ⁓ relationships that are kind of dysfunctional, where the person might have things to offer their students, but it's kind of ⁓ not something that is necessarily. healthy for the student to take as a ⁓ you know, without any type of ⁓ healthy doubt and investigation. And that's that's a problem with that ⁓ relationship also, especially when you're dealing with, you know, teachers from another culture or or like or or teachers who are pretty much saying, you know, that, you know, the world is an illusion and everything ⁓ s and your ego is ⁓ you know destructive and dysfunctional and a mad machine, you know. So whatever I say, even though it seems crazy, is going to get you to a right place. I mean, that's kind of something that you really have to watch out for. Yeah, I'm wondering if there's some ad additional advice or things that you would you would share for me, for I don't know, for Felix. Like I'm thinking about Felix as as someone who is like a Wants he wants to learn, he wants to grow. some things to think about when either being confronted with someone who seems inspiring or interested, or seeking someone out. Like what what what would be some things that you would encourage them to to think about or do beforehand or alongside that opportunity? Well, I guess I mean you really you know, you wanna have a good sense of why you're attracted to a certain per if you're if you're attracted and and this might have been the case, I'm sure this was probably the case when I was in college. If you know, I I ⁓ I mean, it's hard to you well, what I was gonna say is like I I felt that at that I was I definitely felt kind of adrift at that time. Right. But I also had my share of of arrogance and ⁓ you know, I wasn't kind of a starry eyed ⁓ ⁓ acolyte kind of thing. But I would say but but more so but in but when push came to shove ⁓ I I in a way I was ⁓ kind of it was a certain kind of fantasy that you know I was involved in thinking that ⁓ you know these people knew everything. You know, and you know you know they were brilliant and they had, you know, You know, every everything was just and that's kind of, you know, that kind of fantasy is not unusual. ⁓ you know, they reached high academic degrees, they ⁓ had ⁓ you know, they were very, you know, really smart, you know, the you know, they in many many subjects, you know, they were ⁓ you know, masters of Tai Chi of karate, yoga, all this stuff, you know. But even that is not that that is you know, exceptional and that's ⁓ noteworthy, but even that is not sufficient, you know. I mean, they could have not had any of those things and just and and and have been what you were looking for. So, you know, you have to kind of ⁓ so really what you have to do is you have to ask yours you have to be you have to ask yourself what is it you want and and what are they providing for you? I mean if you want a loving father, you know, if you want Someone to make you feel ⁓ better than everybody else. ⁓ or if you want someone who's able to give you answers to things that you've been questioning, you know, really what what are you looking for? Or do you just, you know, or do you you just want to draft on their popularity and be admired? I mean, to be honest about what you're asking for. Another thing is is to ha I think the, you know, a lot of ⁓ I think it's important to recognize ⁓ you know, basic ⁓ morality. And, you know, or like I remember I was ⁓ I was taking it took me a while after I left the Tai Chi group that I was with and I've been looking for a while and I found this guy who was teaching Tai Chi. And ⁓ and it kind of I felt like he had a pretty good ⁓ handle on complementing what I knew from my previous studies without really ⁓ taking me off track, complimented enough. And he was a bit of a peacock, but I can handle that. But then I he he he criticized his partner in front of the class. And to me that was like, you know, he you know, at the same time this guy was trying to be a spiritual teacher, which I didn't really follow him along those lines, but I I you know, I went with, you know, when he would give a standing meditation, you know, I appreciated the the mechanics of what he was doing. But when he did that, it was like, you know, this guy in terms of from from my point of view, he crossed the line. Like I just don't want to. And it's kind of like if you recognize what core values that are necessary for you to, you know, you know, so like, you know, there were a lot of ⁓ gurus who've reached from India who reached you know, pretty lofty spiritual practices in terms of meditation and kind of powers of concentrations and stuff. But they were sexual predators. I mean, and and they could have said, you know, why are you depriving ⁓ these women of having sex with this guru? You know, you know, why are you so involved in your ego defensiveness? Well, you know, that might be true. Two things can be true at the same time. You're a sexual predator and I'm still in my ego. You know, but you you know, you kinda have to recognize You know, we're you know it should have a base acceptance of what is considered decent behavior under normal circumstances. Like if you're in a war, that's something else. You know, you t but under normal circumstances, you know, your teacher should expouse, you know, conscious love, which sometimes might mean, you know, being ⁓ critical of a of a student who's doing stupid thing, but you know that that's not, you know, they're doing it within that context. Like I remember my teacher when he ⁓ When people were doing really stupid things, he he he criticized them, but you could tell it was just I mean, you could almost tell it was an act, like a a parent, you know, acting mean to their child under a certain circumstance. But, you know, like that they would change. You know, it's not as if they would be really angry at them. They were just making a point. In fact, a lot of times they would look at someone else while they're saying it. You know, you just knew that. It wasn't something he wasn't identified with anger at the person. Right. Right. But by the same turken, it I he he wasn't perfect either. And I could have, you know, said things at certain points that perhaps I didn't because again, I, you know, ⁓ was left certain level of intimidation, you know, which is true, too. Like you should really have a lot of if you have questions, you should ask it. You sh you know, you should clarify things that you don't understand. You know, so. It should ha it should be a dialogue, but just you know, but with deference. Did that answer your question? Yeah. ⁓ it it it like this idea of there's there's some work that you need to do alongside and beforehand. In this context, you know, being able to distinguish between a charlatan and ⁓ and someone who ⁓ could lead you on an enlightened path. But and like that's like a like a big picture decision, but also there it's like Also all the the shades of gray where it's like this person's like really incredible and helpful in this way, but they're not perfect. ⁓ yeah, I mean I mean that's kind of why I went into all of this stuff about the more ⁓ man mundane practical mentorships, because you you've already accomplished something. So you know what you're missing. But it's it but it's not it's that's kind of a different, you know, like ⁓ you know, my teacher w once said. If you would follow a vagrant and do everything they said for a year, you would you would benefit. Now, that's obviously a dysfunctional thing to do, but it's kind of like if you what you're doing, just like if you know, think about being in the army and and being under a sergeant. I mean the guy could be an asshole. But you you're you're under him and you have no choice unless again it unless he abuses you, you know what I mean? But he but he's going to abuse you verbally. You know, you know those classic things, you know. But they ⁓ he might apparently abuse you physically, but he's abusing everyone so they can handle battles. But I mean I mean, think about you know taking orders from someone who maybe just has a high school diploma, is from the South, you know he's probably a he very well could be a bigot. And he's just screaming out orders, but and you have to do it. I mean, that's pretty humbling. You know, and and you really have to I mean you if you could find a way to not be insulted and and pissed at him and want to kill him every single time. That's powerful. Now that's a powerful place to be. And that's the same type of thing with ⁓ you know, when it and that's kind of the message I got from following, you know, a vagrant, doing everything he said. Not to be do stuff self-destructively, but not to ⁓ but to be able to ⁓ s subjugate your ego to someone who ⁓ you wouldn't otherwise. But that, you know, you think about the big picture that that requires in terms of what your goal is and what you're looking for. as you know, again, as opposed to, you know, being in a ⁓ you know, a more well-defined situation where, you know, this person is able to give you that one piece to the puzzle and then you can just like leave because you got what you needed, so to speak. And even though this is my line of work, I actually I I I often find, you know, your insights, whether it's like And thinking about how to talk to teachers about this or even kids to be really helpful. So I'm wondering as like a last possible thread unless you have something else something I'm curious about is like So I'll I'll say one like kind of context for this question. You know, and thinking about like the lead up to some of these bigger, more impactful, high stakes situations. Like we're talking about finding a mentor. Like that's that's like a life altering big thing. ⁓ you talked about a mentor you were ready for or began to interact with in college. ⁓ you know, and and I and it and it least for me and and I've heard other people talk about this, like these big decisions that we expect young peop people to make and adults to make, you know, we forget about all those little decisions and little learning opportunities that are relevant that prepare you for that larger decision. So something as like concrete as like kids being ready to be independent in college. It's like we can't expect a kid to just walk in and take care of themselves. if they haven't been instructed and or at least the expectation set when they're younger to to do some of those things. Like you you you you need to prepare them for that. And so I'm wondering actually before so before I ask my question, any thoughts or connections about that? Yeah, I mean that a lot of that is is a is, you know, the attention that they get from their parents, right? You know, you know, the ⁓ You know, the because most of the the ⁓ skill set that they have, you know, ⁓ you know, like I was speaking to someone today, ⁓ like this woman, she was saying how she ⁓ was doing some hardware, you know, some carpentry. And she so I mean, my re you know, my relationship to her is she's constantly doing too much and injuring herself. So she's telling me how so I said, Did you have your sons help you? She said, No, but I had my daughter watch me because You know, a lot of women are not prepared to do this type of thing. So then I said, Well, are your sons prepared? And they she said, No. So I was saying, Well, that's that's kind of, you know, how things are today. It used to be gender-wise that the males were more prepared, but now it's like no one's prepared. And then she was and she was talking about her neighbor who was a fireman and how he came to help her, but he brought his son. And you know, he made he made his son watch him and he made his son participate in it. And she was saying how how hard, you know, he she she could tell her son his son didn't like doing it. It was a you know, it was a pain. But when he gets older, he'll appreciate it. So that's kind of what ends up happening. You know, a lot of times in the household, it's you know, the parent is is too busy to teach their child to do something when. when they're doing it, you know, and and have it take extra time and maybe, you know, sabotage it to some degree. And also the child is doing other things too. So a lot of these things is about ⁓ you know, like you have your kids participate in the kitchen, you know, you know, do you have them, you know, clean up after themselves? Do you have them fold their clothes? You know, do you, you know, do you have them watch you? You know And I'm asking I'm not saying I'm asking just, you know, it's that type of thing. And that's where they pick up a lot of skills. And then when it comes time, you know, when they're older, you know, how do they get a job just for the experience? You know, whatever it might be. You know, mowing or just mowing the lawn, you know, teaching them, you know, you know, whatever it might be. So You know, I think that's how, you know, a parent can be a real practical mentor in a way. Mm-hmm. I think the big thing with ⁓ mentoring in terms of the big psychological way that I was talking about. I I it's much easier when you're a college student and you're younger, you know, and for whatever reason, you know, maybe ⁓ your angst it facilitates that that thing, which is kind of a good thing, but it still comes from angst, you know. So ⁓ you know It if but if ⁓ I think like for instance at your level, for instance, I don't think you know, a mentor again, I think would be you being open to like the more you judge someone as to how you know, relative to you, like you know, or relative to what you think is proper behavior or, you know, how they smell, how they dress, all that kind of stuff, you ⁓ you'll close off to even good things they might have. Right. You know, so I think if we're we're if we're open and non judgmental, you know, the kind of the world is our oyster and everybody and in a way everybody can be a mentor, but you but the big thing is is like if you're not looking for something, you're not going to be open for it. Does that answer your question in a way? And if you're not if you know, if you don't have a sense of your why and if you don't have A You know, you you you y use the word like some ethics, moral compass, ⁓ just some groundedness. It's also really hard to make use of the information and learning opportunities around you. So there's and it's not like you're you've ever arrived in any of those things, but all of those things need to be engaged in some way in order to get value out of it. Yeah. I mean it's a very life is ⁓ I mean, in a way that's kind of what's ⁓ I think ⁓ troubling about our culture is that it's become so narrow in its focus. I mean, to the to the exclusion of, I think in many ways to wisdom. I mean, you I mean, I said this the other day, think about how many incr people with incredible reputations and and really smart people who once they got associated with Trump, like just became, you know, it's like, who what who is it? Who was this guy? Did this guy they they always say, ⁓ this guy had a good rep this guy has a great reputation, you know, you know. No, the this I mean this he this guy was judged by such a narrow thing. Yeah, he was a good lawyer and maybe because of peer pressure, he was always nice to people, but that's but it's like he was never tested. You know, and it's like if you don't if that's not something that's you think is significant, like if you don't think it's significant, how a person will act, you know, ⁓ you know, under under you know, in war, under duress. You know, just like you once asked me who I thought a hero was, and I said author ash. Just because it was so impressive how he he faced death. If you don't if that's if you don't think about those things and value it, you're, you're, you know Your worldview i is is very narrow. So it's really kind of like what are you looking for? You know, you'll end up looking for someone like Steve Jobs because you know, he made a lot of money and he was famous. Right. Right. Well So, like, I mean, as a parent, I think you really set the groundwork in terms of values and also a lot of the the, you know, basic competencies of life, you know, like, you know. Well, I'm about to pick up my kids and we'll see how patient I am when actually it's funny. I was like, I'll see how patient I am when the first thing they say is where's where's a snack? But also they're hungry. So I probably should bring a snack and then and then also hold them accountable for using positive language. But also I I could do my part to make it a little easier. Yeah, you could say if the first thing they say is where's a snack? You could knowing that you have a snack, right? Because you thought about a reasonable need, you'll be able to say without anger, you'll say, I'm fine, thank you. And how was your day? Right. You know? Yeah. That kind of Yeah. ⁓ well that I mean, yeah. Am I just like a a a candy machine to you? I mean No, I I right. I mean, and it's one of those things where being honest with yourself about your your response. It is okay to expect that your kid is kind and patient. And it is also okay to see it as a as a need. They, you know, it's after five o'clock, they're gonna be hungry. So there's an al Yeah, but also to recognize that they aren't necessarily kind and patient. And it could be you know, they might be in certain circumstances, but you're in a position to not require it, but to kind of facilitate it. Right. Well, thanks for that. It's all it's all this stuff is easy for me to say. Like you've already you've dealt with me and you know how connected I am with this stuff. Well, and that's the thing. It's like it's the journey. It's the journey and also just like when they're tired and hungry, they're gonna be a little bit more crabby. And we each have our own context where that's the case as well. And I actually came up with teachers upstairs where it's like one of the reasons why it's so important to come back to these themes, these intentions is that, you know, we were talking about kindness actually. Is that it's also important for kids and adults at the same time to understand that, you know, we are a lot of things. There, you know, the the kindest, the kid who's kind most of the time is also not kind all the time, and vice versa. And so for a for us to be and so for us to be attached to either the successes or the failures around that isn't all that helpful. No nor is it all that accurate of a picture, kinda like what's a big part. It's so it that is so true because we I I hear so often people have like this fantastic well, you you know, that's kind of what stardom is all about. Like people have this fantastic, really ignorant thinking that these people are any different than me, other than this talent they have. Right. ⁓ but we do it with friends too, or you know, just people we know like ⁓ I wish I could be like this person. In this word you wish for. At this time. Yeah, right, exactly. Depending upon what driver is manifesting. Right. ⁓ well dad, thanks for making time. ⁓ next Monday is Yom Kippur, so that that won't work. So ⁓ well unless you do w unless you want to do it during the day, but that's up to you. Yeah. So that yeah, well Next boat, let's come back to doing this regularly. Love Dad.