Latest / APD Pod Squad / Episode 3; SPO LaKeisha Hawes, Sgt Brian Hogan, and Det. Sam DeGrave

Transcript

Episode 3; SPO LaKeisha Hawes, Sgt Brian Hogan, and Det. Sam DeGrave · APD Pod Squad

0:00
SPEAKER_05: This is the APD Pod Squad.
0:04
SPEAKER_05: Thanks for joining us.
0:05
SPEAKER_05: If you're Kid Scourt Home, this is episode three of the APD Pod Squad.
0:10
SPEAKER_05: And as my minister on Sunday says, if this is your first time joining us, you are especially welcome.
0:15
SPEAKER_05: And hey, don't forget to click subscribe or like or remind me, or however your service provider does that, depending on where you get this podcast, could be Apple or Spotify or iTunes or any of those.
0:27
SPEAKER_05: And that way you're reminded and you don't miss a single minute.
0:31
SPEAKER_05: My name is Rick Rice.
0:32
SPEAKER_05: I am your host.
0:34
SPEAKER_05: On this episode, getting to know senior police officer Lakeisha Haw.
0:38
SPEAKER_05: She's got a great backstory.
0:40
SPEAKER_05: We'll be joined by recently promoted Sergeant Brian Hogan, so not a sergeant much longer.
0:46
SPEAKER_05: Find out the latest from community engagement and get to know him.
0:50
SPEAKER_05: Also, part two of the manhunt for Michael John Shornock with Detective Sam DeGrave.
0:57
SPEAKER_05: It's all coming up on this episode of the APD Pod Squad.
1:03
SPEAKER_05: We call this segment Getting to Know as we get to know an officer of the Asheville Police Department.
1:08
SPEAKER_05: And this week we're getting to know Lakeisha Hawes.
1:10
SPEAKER_05: Lakeisha, I think you know how this works.
1:12
SPEAKER_05: First up, name and rank.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: My name is Lakeisha Hawes.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm a senior PO officer here at the Asheville Police Department.
1:19
SPEAKER_05: Okay, do you have a certain department that you specialize in?
1:21
SPEAKER_00: Um right now I'm in patrol.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm eventually, I just got selected almost a couple of months ago to move up to the detective position.
1:29
SPEAKER_05: Well, so I understand uh before we go any further that you are uh are you a CID intern?
1:33
SPEAKER_00: Yep, I did the internship.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: I've done it for almost two years.
1:36
SPEAKER_05: Is that your eventual goal to be a detective?
1:38
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I've always wanted to be a detective.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: I think since I've been like growing up, that's always been my end goal.
1:42
SPEAKER_05: Let's talk about growing up because that's the next thing.
1:44
SPEAKER_05: Where are you from?
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Locally, I'm from Weaverville, North Carolina.
1:47
SPEAKER_05: Awesome.
1:47
SPEAKER_05: So that's uh North Boncombe, I guess?
1:49
SPEAKER_00: I went to Asheville High.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: My mom was a first grade teacher here in the Asheville City schools.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: So I went one year primary uh at Weaverville primary.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: But then my mom was a first grade teacher here in Asheville City.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: So then me and my brothers just start getting on the uh car with her and then catching the bus at her school.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: She teaches that uh used to be Vance Elementary, but now it's uh Lucy S.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: Heritan.
2:09
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: So I used to catch the bus from there.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: I went to Asheville on Asheville High.
2:13
SPEAKER_05: So, okay, my wife's a little older than you, but she is also a uh Asheville High grad.
2:17
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
2:17
SPEAKER_05: So she always tells me cougar pride.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: Go cougars.
2:21
SPEAKER_05: She always told me that's I lived across the street from Asheville High School when I first moved here.
2:25
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
2:25
SPEAKER_05: You know those condos right across.
2:27
SPEAKER_05: If you were looking across the street, I was in the far right unit, end unit of the white building right across the street.
2:33
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
2:34
SPEAKER_05: So I heard the uh buses coming and going all the time.
2:37
SPEAKER_05: So but my wife instills in me the uh Asheville High Pride.
2:40
SPEAKER_05: Of course.
2:41
SPEAKER_05: If I have to root for a local team, it has to be Asheville High School.
2:45
SPEAKER_05: You play any sports when you were there?
2:46
SPEAKER_05: Somebody told me volleyball.
2:47
SPEAKER_05: Anything else?
2:48
SPEAKER_00: Basketball and a softball player.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: See playing softball.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: I played T-ball, like um softball all my life.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: Went to sixth grade.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: The gym teacher's like, hey, would you like to play volleyball?
2:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, nah, I play uh softball, but they're like, you know what, loved it.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: And I went to college to play volleyball.
3:03
SPEAKER_05: So I I I haven't seen you on the uh the field because I am on the APD softball team.
3:07
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
3:08
SPEAKER_05: However, I have a little bit of old man disease.
3:10
SPEAKER_05: You might have noticed that when you walked in.
3:12
SPEAKER_05: But uh I pulled my hamstring in the first game.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: Gee, see.
3:16
SPEAKER_05: It's just most of me knows I'm 55 years old, but there's a small part of me that doesn't think so.
3:21
SPEAKER_05: And you do things that you're not supposed to do as you and so I haven't played softball years.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: Like I played fast pitch.
3:27
SPEAKER_00: My mama said, my mama and my dad played softball, like on actual leads.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: And they played slow pitch.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: And but me coming to fast to slow, I had like a couple of times like played with my mom, and they needed me for whatever, and I was adamant that I want to, but I there's the ball coming so slow.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: I will miss it every time.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: But one time I did win a game.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: I did win a game from a base hit.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: But other than that, when people are like, he should play softball, I will, but this lady know I'm terrible and slow pitched.
4:00
SPEAKER_05: I want to see you out there next time, though, okay?
4:02
SPEAKER_05: Okay, so now the question is what is one thing that most people don't know about you?
4:07
SPEAKER_00: Uh see, most people don't know that I have a addiction to plants.
4:12
SPEAKER_05: So the way you described it to me is you have a plant, you collect plants.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm a plant collector.
4:17
SPEAKER_05: You see, when I was growing up, I collected baseball cards, but with those, you kind of put them in the spokes of your bike and things like that.
4:22
SPEAKER_05: So I know how collecting things work.
4:24
SPEAKER_05: How does collecting plants work?
4:26
SPEAKER_05: Do you get them all over the house?
4:27
SPEAKER_05: Like we're talking about potted plants?
4:28
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: Potted plants.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: I think I last time I count I have like 51 plants.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a jungle where you put them.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: So especially when it's uh it gets hectic during uh winter time when they all need to come inside.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: So you have to sit there strategically figure out where can I put them?
4:45
SPEAKER_05: With the sunlight.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, with the sunlight, and so I just don't look like a hoarder.
4:49
SPEAKER_05: How in the world do you keep track of watering?
4:52
SPEAKER_05: What you can you must have like a spreadsheet or something.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: I had a journal so I could try to keep them like together so I can figure out what need water and what don't.
5:01
SPEAKER_00: But like most of them are like a kind of starting with like succulents.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: So anyway, so those don't need water.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: Well, when I first started, I did used to kill them.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: I started off with two aloe vera plants that I bought from Walmart, and I was I didn't realize aloe vera plants do not need to be watered as much as they water, because I water them like every three days, and then I realized I was killing them.
5:21
SPEAKER_05: But you know, no one starts expert level of anything.
5:23
SPEAKER_05: So you gotta have those learner plants, right?
5:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
5:27
SPEAKER_00: I still have them, they're flourishing now, and I learned that you have to just love them and leave them.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: That's that's what I learned to keep all my succulents alive.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: Just leave them, kind of forget about them.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: I learned that they did better when I just watered them and then forgot about them for a couple of months and then went back and water them.
5:43
SPEAKER_05: Anyway that kind of collects things or has a hobby of getting things, it knows that you find something, like let's say sneakers.
5:48
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
5:48
SPEAKER_05: And so all of a sudden you walk to the store and you say, Oh, I gotta have that pair of sneakers.
5:52
SPEAKER_05: So, do you do that with plants?
5:53
SPEAKER_00: Like you're what looks like Walmart, Lowe's, anywhere there's plants, I will be like, you know what, let me go check the plant section.
6:01
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, you know what?
6:03
SPEAKER_00: I see plants, I'd be like, you do not need these plants.
6:05
SPEAKER_00: You do not need these plants.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: Like you're like, you got empty spots somewhere.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna make room.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: I it's even bad when I go to calls and I see somebody with some kind of plant, and I'm like, hey, what is that?
6:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, what do you get?
6:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think one woman offered me like a cutting from a plant.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: I was just like, Oh, yeah.
6:24
SPEAKER_00: I didn't take it though.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: But you should have.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she offered.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: I was like, I don't have one of those.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: What are these?
6:29
SPEAKER_00: What are these?
6:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:31
SPEAKER_05: See, now that's that's that's a that's an extreme compliment.
6:34
SPEAKER_05: When someone offers you a cutting, like to extend their plant, their whole lineage of the plant.
6:37
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's like the it's like ancestry.com or something.
6:40
SPEAKER_05: The plant goes to a different place.
6:41
SPEAKER_05: See, my mom is huge on plants, but mostly outdoors.
6:45
SPEAKER_05: So she has her garden more than and so I get the whole plant thing.
6:49
SPEAKER_05: I kind of got the thumb from it.
6:50
SPEAKER_05: I do a lot of landscaping myself, not so much plants.
6:53
SPEAKER_05: I got a lot more, I don't want to say shrubbery, yeah, but I like to create some areas like included mosses and rocks and all these different things and have a little pop of color here and there.
7:03
SPEAKER_05: But I only we can't have we got cats in the house.
7:06
SPEAKER_05: You can't have too many plants because they're gonna mess with them and they're gonna eat them and all those things.
7:10
SPEAKER_05: And another subject here.
7:11
SPEAKER_05: A little birdie told me that law enforcement is kind of uh in the family, that your brother followed in your footsteps.
7:18
SPEAKER_05: Yes.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: Is there truth to that?
7:19
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: So my family is basically silver service.
7:23
SPEAKER_00: We were either firefighters, a bunch of like my uncle was a battalion chief here at AFD.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, my granddaddy was a fire chief for like and we revealed like a long time ago.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: My uncle, other uncle's like a volunteer firefighter.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: I have a well, he's my cousin.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: He was a detective here at APD and retired out.
7:43
SPEAKER_00: Uh, a lot of family go to the military.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: And my mom's a teacher, my aunt's like a um a preschool teacher.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: My other aunt, she's a teacher for adults with like disabilities.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: So it was kind of like me either go become a cop, a firefighter, or go into the military.
8:02
SPEAKER_05: So I know the conversations on the family dinner table, too.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, my brother followed in my steps, and he also had become a cop too.
8:11
SPEAKER_05: And so that was at A B Tech?
8:12
SPEAKER_00: Did he he went to A B Tech?
8:14
SPEAKER_00: He was a police officer for at A B Tech.
8:17
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and he was eventually gonna come to here to APD.
8:20
SPEAKER_05: So, how long have you been a member of the Asheville Police Department?
8:22
SPEAKER_05: How many years?
8:23
SPEAKER_00: Almost ten years, August the fourth.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: I got August August the 4th of 2014.
8:30
SPEAKER_05: Okay, that's awesome.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it went by fast.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: I feel like yesterday I just got sworn in.
8:35
SPEAKER_05: So it flies by well, and pretty soon it'll be flying by if you become a detective.
8:41
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, all that learning and all the new stuff you'll be soaking in, I'm sure all of a sudden you'll blink and it'll be 20 years, right?
8:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's what people keep thinking.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: Tell them about how many years they got to retirement.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: And I'm just like, oh, I still got so many years.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: But then I know 10 years went by in a blink of eye already.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: I know another 10 years is probably gonna go by just as fast.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm just looking at this year already, don't went by.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: We're already in September.
9:03
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, well, and next thing you know, chief of police Lakeisha Hawes, right?
9:06
SPEAKER_00: That's what they keep joking.
9:07
SPEAKER_05: Like, you know, you're gonna be chief here.
9:09
SPEAKER_05: Why not?
9:10
SPEAKER_05: If it can happen to Mike Lamb, he's a local boy done good.
9:13
SPEAKER_05: It can happen to you too, right?
9:15
SPEAKER_05: Yep.
9:15
SPEAKER_05: That's awesome.
9:16
SPEAKER_05: Senior police officer Lakeisha Hawes is with us.
9:19
SPEAKER_05: She is a Weaverville native that collects plants on the road to being a detective.
9:24
SPEAKER_05: It's been fun getting to know you.
9:25
SPEAKER_05: Thanks so much for joining us.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
9:29
SPEAKER_05: We're gonna call this a little getting to know extra with Sergeant Brian Hogan joining me right now.
9:34
SPEAKER_05: And first and foremost, Sergeant, it won't be that for much longer.
9:38
SPEAKER_05: So congratulations soon to be Lieutenant Brian Hogan.
9:41
SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
9:42
SPEAKER_05: Pretty excited about that?
9:43
SPEAKER_03: I am pretty excited.
9:44
SPEAKER_03: I'd prefer to be just called Brian, but uh you want to be formal, that's fine with me.
9:48
SPEAKER_03: Well, I'll call you Brian.
9:49
SPEAKER_03: All right, yeah, Brian's fine.
9:51
SPEAKER_05: But you have earned the lieutenant.
9:52
SPEAKER_05: Uh so congratulations on that.
9:55
SPEAKER_05: Matter of fact, that's something you're part of the community engagement division.
9:58
SPEAKER_05: I am, and that is something that's being celebrated on the 27th at A B Tech.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
10:02
SPEAKER_05: Uh, that is open to the public.
10:04
SPEAKER_05: And while I realize it's mostly friends and family and fellow officers of those that are getting promoted, it's also an opportunity for the public to come out and support the Asheville police, isn't it?
10:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
10:15
SPEAKER_03: Uh excellent facility.
10:16
SPEAKER_03: Uh, come on out, say hi, meet us.
10:19
SPEAKER_03: We'll be there with our families.
10:20
SPEAKER_03: You can meet some of our families.
10:21
SPEAKER_03: My daughter is gonna pin on my badge.
10:23
SPEAKER_03: Nice.
10:24
SPEAKER_03: So I'm excited about that.
10:25
SPEAKER_03: She's excited.
10:26
SPEAKER_05: You know, also the same day there's something going on at uh Irwin High School.
10:30
SPEAKER_05: That is the uh career fair, correct?
10:32
SPEAKER_05: On the 27th as well.
10:33
SPEAKER_03: Yes, the Irwin High hosts a career fair with a lot of uh local employers, us being one of them, we're gonna be there.
10:40
SPEAKER_03: Uh we have some free handouts.
10:42
SPEAKER_03: We'll be there from 8 30 to 11 30.
10:44
SPEAKER_05: So is that the kind of thing it's open to the general public, or is that really more intended just for students at Irwin?
10:50
SPEAKER_05: We're gonna target high school students at Irwin.
10:52
SPEAKER_05: Because we're right now we're actively recruiting new officers to the Asheville Police Department.
10:57
SPEAKER_05: We've got a good-sized incoming class, uh, but with all these promotions, we're gonna need more officers.
11:03
SPEAKER_03: We always need more officers, always.
11:05
SPEAKER_05: So how long have you been a part of the community engagement division?
11:09
SPEAKER_03: I've actually only been there six months.
11:11
SPEAKER_03: And prior to that, I was in West Asheville, which we call Adam District.
11:15
SPEAKER_03: It's a patrol supervisor out there for probably the last three and a half, four years.
11:19
SPEAKER_05: As we're getting to know you a little bit, we'll treat this like a little bit of an extra.
11:22
SPEAKER_05: I usually ask people that sit down with me the basic questions of you know, name, rank, department.
11:27
SPEAKER_05: We already know that.
11:28
SPEAKER_05: But we also ask hometown.
11:30
SPEAKER_05: So in your case, that's kind of an interesting question.
11:34
SPEAKER_05: Don't have one.
11:35
SPEAKER_05: I mean, because you've moved around a lot.
11:36
SPEAKER_03: Right.
11:37
SPEAKER_03: I was born in uh Texas, outside of Fort Hood.
11:40
SPEAKER_03: My dad was a career army officer.
11:42
SPEAKER_03: Uh so every two to three years, uh, my dad would come home and he would say, Guess what?
11:48
SPEAKER_03: We're moving.
11:49
SPEAKER_03: It was a moment of excitement because we always got to guess where we were going, and then he would let us know, and then we would pack up and leave.
11:55
SPEAKER_05: Do you have some uh particular favorite locations that you spent time at?
11:58
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
11:59
SPEAKER_03: Looking back on childhood, I think Watertown, New York.
12:03
SPEAKER_03: Wow, seriously, dude.
12:04
SPEAKER_05: Yes, I'm from Buffalo.
12:05
SPEAKER_05: It's cold and snowy at the end.
12:07
SPEAKER_03: But I was a kid there.
12:08
SPEAKER_03: I was like in kindergarten third school.
12:10
SPEAKER_03: So it's sledding and ice skating and ice things.
12:13
SPEAKER_03: Snow forts, tombing every day.
12:16
SPEAKER_03: Uh, we had a blast.
12:17
SPEAKER_05: Maybe one of the only pieces, people in documented history that has listed Watertown, New York as a favorite stop.
12:23
SPEAKER_05: I blast as a kid.
12:24
SPEAKER_03: Fort Sill, Oklahoma was another one.
12:26
SPEAKER_03: Love the state of Oklahoma.
12:28
SPEAKER_03: I had a really good time living there, had a lot of great friends.
12:31
SPEAKER_05: Isn't there like a Texas, Oklahoma kind of rivalry?
12:36
SPEAKER_03: Red River, Red River Bowl.
12:38
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
12:38
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
12:39
SPEAKER_05: So but you liked them both, huh?
12:40
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
12:41
SPEAKER_03: I was born in Texas, but uh and uh and I enjoy the state of Texas, but I like Oklahoma just as well.
12:46
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
12:46
SPEAKER_05: Did you get to Hawaii?
12:47
SPEAKER_03: Was that one of the no, never, never went high.
12:50
SPEAKER_03: Actually, the furthest west we went was Oklahoma.
12:53
SPEAKER_03: So most of the time it was on the east coast.
12:55
SPEAKER_05: So how long in Asheville?
12:56
SPEAKER_03: Actually, I've been here since 2000.
12:58
SPEAKER_03: So I've lived in Asheville the longest I've ever lived anywhere.
13:02
SPEAKER_05: Same goes for me.
13:03
SPEAKER_05: Got here in 1999.
13:04
SPEAKER_05: So I've lived here longer than anywhere, including where I was born and raised in Buffalo.
13:09
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I had no intention of staying that long, but it just kind of worked out that way.
13:12
SPEAKER_03: And I was hired with the police department in 2003, and I just never left.
13:17
SPEAKER_05: How about one thing that most people don't know about you?
13:21
SPEAKER_05: A certain talent, a skill, a historical artifact is is there anything that comes to mind that's like, you know, most people don't know this about me?
13:29
SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna hype myself up a little bit here.
13:31
SPEAKER_03: Um I make the world's greatest medicinal salve.
13:34
SPEAKER_03: A medicinal salve?
13:36
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
13:36
SPEAKER_03: Okay, like anything that goes wrong with your skin, cuts, scrapes, burns.
13:41
SPEAKER_03: How about poison ivy?
13:42
SPEAKER_03: I get poisoned ivy once in a while.
13:44
SPEAKER_03: I got it fixed for it.
13:45
SPEAKER_05: Seriously.
13:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I make it once a year.
13:47
SPEAKER_03: I make it in my kitchen at home uh with a lot of stuff that we grow and harvest on our property.
13:53
SPEAKER_03: And some of it I buy locally, but the way I make it and the ingredients I use, I can fix anything.
13:59
SPEAKER_03: Seriously.
13:59
SPEAKER_03: Anything.
14:00
SPEAKER_03: So I have I've got proof.
14:02
SPEAKER_03: What kind of concoction is this?
14:04
SPEAKER_03: I mean it's uh it's just now it's all natural ingredients.
14:06
SPEAKER_03: Most of it's grown in the ground.
14:08
SPEAKER_05: Uh does it stink?
14:09
SPEAKER_03: No.
14:10
SPEAKER_05: Because a lot of these people have told me sometimes that they're like, oh, you just gotta wipe it on you and you do, and you're like, oh my God, that is the most vile smelling thing.
14:17
SPEAKER_03: I live with all girls, my wife and I have two daughters.
14:20
SPEAKER_03: So I mix in uh like essential oils that generally smell good.
14:25
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
14:25
SPEAKER_03: So like lemon, lemongrass, lavender.
14:28
SPEAKER_03: Um I make the one that I like smells more like an ointment.
14:31
SPEAKER_03: It's not so popular, but I like it.
14:33
SPEAKER_03: What size batch are we talking here?
14:35
SPEAKER_03: How much?
14:36
SPEAKER_03: Well, small.
14:36
SPEAKER_03: It's uh yeah.
14:37
SPEAKER_03: I make enough uh really to get myself and my family through the year.
14:41
SPEAKER_05: Well, you know, after this though, now that the secret is out, you may have to make more.
14:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, if you if you contact me, reach out and uh I can hook you up.
14:48
SPEAKER_03: Maybe, maybe.
14:49
SPEAKER_03: We'll see.
14:50
SPEAKER_05: Sergeant Brian Hogan joins me soon to be Lieutenant Brian Hogan from the Community Engagement Division, which has a busy October coming up.
14:59
SPEAKER_05: Uh, we've got a few things.
15:00
SPEAKER_05: First of all, I really enjoy this because I love coffee.
15:02
SPEAKER_05: The coffee with a cop has a national day, and we've got one on October 2nd, uh, right in downtown Asheville, the Hotel Eris.
15:10
SPEAKER_05: That's right.
15:11
SPEAKER_03: So it's a good facility, it's a great hotel.
15:13
SPEAKER_05: And they're very supportive of the Asheville Police Department, and we thank them for that.
15:17
SPEAKER_03: They're wonderful to us.
15:19
SPEAKER_05: We were there on National Night Out as well.
15:21
SPEAKER_05: We had a good group there for that.
15:23
SPEAKER_05: So this is a great opportunity for people just it's because it's in downtown Asheville.
15:27
SPEAKER_05: Let's say you work in downtown Asheville, just stop on over that morning.
15:30
SPEAKER_05: Uh, we're there usually uh early, like usually seven, eight o'clock.
15:34
SPEAKER_05: We're there pretty early.
15:35
SPEAKER_05: And we're not gonna charge you even for the coffee.
15:37
SPEAKER_05: Just come on by and draw yourself a cup.
15:39
SPEAKER_05: That's right.
15:39
SPEAKER_05: And get a chance to just hang out, talk, ask questions if you got them.
15:42
SPEAKER_05: If you have a concern in your neighborhood, this is a great opportunity, right?
15:46
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely, yeah.
15:47
SPEAKER_05: Welcome.
15:47
SPEAKER_05: Anyone who comes by.
15:48
SPEAKER_05: National Coffee with a Cop that's October 2nd at Hotel Eris.
15:52
SPEAKER_05: We hope you'll join us for that.
15:54
SPEAKER_05: Then there's also something that's uh near and dear to me as a Christian, Faith and Blue at Temple Baptist Church.
16:00
SPEAKER_05: So we've got two events with them.
16:01
SPEAKER_05: We've got one toward the end of the month, which we're gonna talk a little bit more about in the next episode.
16:06
SPEAKER_05: But the fellowship breakfast is on October 13th.
16:08
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
16:09
SPEAKER_03: Pastor Creed is a chaplain with us, and he has been so supportive to us over the years.
16:14
SPEAKER_03: Uh, he was always very given, him and his family and his wife and his children were really supportive to the police department and especially officers in West Asheville for a long time.
16:25
SPEAKER_03: And it's just a way for us to give back to them.
16:27
SPEAKER_03: So they celebrate back the Blue Sunday that weekend.
16:31
SPEAKER_03: Uh the Faith and Blue celebration is a nationwide initiative for police or law enforcement and general communities and faith communities to come together.
16:41
SPEAKER_03: So you're welcome to come to that.
16:42
SPEAKER_03: Pastor Greed has a great service.
16:44
SPEAKER_03: Uh, we're gonna do a fellowship breakfast followed by a uh a regular worship service.
16:48
SPEAKER_05: We know what's on the menu that day.
16:50
SPEAKER_05: Is there gonna be pancakes?
16:51
SPEAKER_03: Because if there's pancakes, I'm gonna I hear pancakes.
16:53
SPEAKER_03: Uh I do.
16:54
SPEAKER_03: I've I heard pancakes, but uh it'll be a surprise.
16:57
SPEAKER_03: And I think, if I'm correct, his congregation um has a lot of wonderful cooks.
17:03
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
17:03
SPEAKER_03: So I would expect some great food.
17:05
SPEAKER_05: All right.
17:05
SPEAKER_05: You know, there's something about church folks.
17:07
SPEAKER_05: I'm telling you, there's nothing better than like a church.
17:09
SPEAKER_05: Church lady casserole or like the the Greek festival that uh is taking place just uh this weekend here as we as we record this.
17:17
SPEAKER_05: Uh that's some of the best food you'll have, and that's the old Greek women from the Greek Orthodox Church.
17:21
SPEAKER_05: Correct.
17:22
SPEAKER_05: So I'm telling you, something about the churching and the cooking.
17:24
SPEAKER_05: Come break break.
17:26
SPEAKER_05: Just go hand in hand together.
17:27
SPEAKER_05: And if someone's making pancakes, you're not gonna keep me away.
17:30
SPEAKER_05: So, Sergeant Brian Hogan, soon-to-be Lieutenant Brian Hogan.
17:34
SPEAKER_05: We hope you join us uh and the rest of our soon-to-be promoted uh members of the Asheville Police Department on the 27th at A B Tech in the auditorium there and celebrate uh law enforcement that particular night.
17:47
SPEAKER_05: And join us for the rest of the month of October.
17:49
SPEAKER_05: We've got a lot of stuff going on.
17:51
SPEAKER_05: Thank you so much for taking some time to join us today.
17:53
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
17:53
SPEAKER_05: Thank you, Rick.
17:55
SPEAKER_05: This is part two of the manhunt for Michael John Shornock, and I am joined by Detective Sam DeGrave.
18:02
SPEAKER_05: Let's do a quick recap of part one.
18:04
SPEAKER_05: Michael John Shornock, born and raised uh eastern North Carolina, down east, as they say, liked to hang out in the swamps, self-taught survivalist, did not like authority, especially, did not like law enforcement, spent a little time behind bars, loved to boost cars and lead cops on manhunts.
18:21
SPEAKER_05: Is that pretty much it?
18:22
SPEAKER_04: Pretty much.
18:23
SPEAKER_04: Uh raised in eastern North Carolina, born, I believe, in Pennsylvania.
18:26
SPEAKER_04: That's right.
18:27
SPEAKER_04: Most of his time in the swamps of eastern North Carolina, where he learned the skills that would later result in him being dubbed a Rambo figure by those pursuing him.
18:36
SPEAKER_05: All right, so let's pick it up where we left off in the previous episode with his arrival in western North Carolina.
18:42
SPEAKER_04: So it's the weekend before Thanksgiving in 1986, and the town of Edneyville, North Carolina, Henderson County, just outside Hendersonville, has become an unrecognizable scene to those who live there.
18:58
SPEAKER_04: Because of the police presence, the massive police presence?
19:01
SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
19:02
SPEAKER_04: Because Michael John Shornock, who at this point is a famous fugitive nationally, has arrived in Western North Carolina, and with that, there's been a shooting at police, there's been a double homicide at a house party, and we'll get into all that in a second.
19:20
SPEAKER_05: So how were we alerted, uh, not just uh who was the first agency that knew Michael John Shornock had arrived in Western North Carolina?
19:28
SPEAKER_05: Was it because of an encounter he had with someone?
19:31
SPEAKER_04: It was.
19:31
SPEAKER_04: It was.
19:32
SPEAKER_04: It was uh on Friday or Saturday before Thanksgiving, a deputy who was sitting, I believe it was a deputy or a state trooper who was watching uh roadway, saw a Buick sedan blow past him, he got behind it, and as the car passed, the passenger threw a beer bottle out the window.
19:53
SPEAKER_04: So he went to make, at the time, I'm sure what he thought was a routine stop on the vehicle, and while he was making the stop, he was notified that there was a bolo on the vehicle.
20:02
SPEAKER_04: It had just been used in a bank robbery in eastern North Carolina.
20:06
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
20:07
SPEAKER_04: And it was believed to be operated or occupied by Michael John Shornock.
20:13
SPEAKER_04: And for most people, they know Bolo is be on the lookout.
20:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, be on the lookout notice.
20:18
SPEAKER_04: Uh some people call them all post bulletin, but either way, it's the same thing.
20:22
SPEAKER_04: Everybody who's in law enforcement then encounters a vehicle with a bolo on it, their ears perk up to be sure when they hear that come over the radio.
20:32
SPEAKER_04: So the officer hears this bolo come out that associates this vehicle with an armed robbery of a bank and with the fugitive Michael John Shornock, and the car takes off.
20:44
SPEAKER_04: Uh pursuit begins.
20:46
SPEAKER_04: And during the pursuit, the passenger of the Buick opens fire from the moving vehicle on the deputy in pursuit.
20:53
SPEAKER_05: This is stuff like right out of a movie.
20:55
SPEAKER_05: I mean, this is what you see people do.
20:57
SPEAKER_05: They hang out the window and they shoot at the car behind them.
20:59
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, to be honest, I don't know if uh Netflix is listening to the APD Pod Squad, but I I think that this would make a for a good movie or TV show because it's got all the all the drama.
21:10
SPEAKER_05: It's at least one or two seasons.
21:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
21:13
SPEAKER_04: So the deputy is shot at and he's uninjured, but the bullets that strike his car shatter his windshield and he catches uh glass in his eyes.
21:22
SPEAKER_04: Oh, geez.
21:23
SPEAKER_04: And has to discontinue his pursuit.
21:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:25
SPEAKER_04: But at this point, we know Michael John Shornock is in western North Carolina.
21:31
SPEAKER_05: Right.
21:31
SPEAKER_05: And so at this point, I guess somebody tells other law enforcement agencies, or was it was it the FBI, was it a national agency that took over at this point?
21:39
SPEAKER_05: Not yet.
21:40
SPEAKER_04: At this point, there's an initial, I would imagine, information gathering stage about what has happened in this car chase, what's going on with this bolo.
21:51
SPEAKER_04: And while police are starting to put together the picture, Shornock doesn't stop what he's doing.
21:56
SPEAKER_04: And he goes to a house party nearby during which A shootout ensues between the people in the house party, and two men are killed as a result.
22:06
SPEAKER_05: Okay, so the guy's already running from the cops must know that he's like the most wanted person in the state for certain, probably in this region of the country, maybe in the country, and he goes to a house party.
22:17
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
22:18
SPEAKER_05: I mean, that's that's bizarre in itself.
22:21
SPEAKER_05: It's like, hold on a second, I'm just gonna grab a cold one.
22:24
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, although when he was in Florida, he broke into a house and shot a dog so he could eat some reheated spaghetti.
22:31
SPEAKER_04: So man needs sustenance.
22:33
SPEAKER_04: I get that, but okay, so he goes to the house party.
22:35
SPEAKER_04: There's a shooting there.
22:36
SPEAKER_04: There's a shooting there, and Shornock was never ultimately charged in that shooting.
22:40
SPEAKER_04: I don't know the specifics of that shooting as well as I know the Shornock story.
22:44
SPEAKER_04: I know that uh one man was charged, two brothers were shot, but ultimately the police end up stopping a car that's leaving that house party, and a man named Pete Black is driving the car, and in the backseat is a dead man who was shot during that house party.
23:02
SPEAKER_04: And Pete Black is interviewed, and Black admits to police at that time that he was in fact driving the Buick that led them on a chase hours before, and that Michael John Shornock was the person who was in the car with him shooting at the police.
23:19
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
23:20
SPEAKER_04: Black mentions that he was also with Shornock during the robbery in, I believe it was Wilmington, eastern part of the state.
23:28
SPEAKER_04: And so at that point, whatever information gathering law enforcement is doing regarding the bolo on the vehicle in the chase is somewhat cemented.
23:37
SPEAKER_04: And the hunt for Michael John Shornock begins in full.
23:42
SPEAKER_05: So this black character, he was probably at this point trying to lessen his involvement as much as he could, share information to try and uh not spend the rest of his life behind bars.
23:51
SPEAKER_05: Is that the idea?
23:52
SPEAKER_05: I'd imagine so.
23:53
SPEAKER_04: It's usually the case that when people are involved in very serious crimes, they, depending on what their involvement is specifically and how close they are with the people they're with, try to say listen, it wasn't me.
24:04
SPEAKER_04: Start explaining what's going on.
24:06
SPEAKER_05: It was that guy.
24:07
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
24:07
SPEAKER_05: And here's everything you need to know type thing.
24:10
SPEAKER_05: All right, so here we go.
24:11
SPEAKER_05: Now we're off and running.
24:12
SPEAKER_04: This was on Saturday night before Thanksgiving.
24:15
SPEAKER_04: By that time, Henderson County started amassing a large presence of law enforcement that were coming from all over the state.
24:24
SPEAKER_04: There were more than 450 law enforcement officers that ended up answering the call to be a part of this manhunt in Henderson County.
24:33
SPEAKER_04: They came from other states, local jurisdictions, state agencies.
24:39
SPEAKER_04: They came from federal agencies.
24:42
SPEAKER_04: In fact, the gov at the governor's request, the National Guard was supplying helicopters to assist in the search.
24:49
SPEAKER_04: And the National Guard even outfitted several officers with ballistic vests because though 1986 wasn't terribly long ago in the grand scheme of things, the technology of law enforcement has advanced rapidly in the time since then.
25:05
SPEAKER_05: So almost 500 members of law enforcement.
25:09
SPEAKER_05: That's like twice the size of the entire Asheville Police Department.
25:14
SPEAKER_04: Well, as one observer who was in the command post, uh, which was set up at a fire station in Edneyville, remarked it was a small army of law enforcement officers that Shornock had stumbled upon.
25:27
SPEAKER_05: You're almost up to 500 officers.
25:29
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
25:29
SPEAKER_05: I I mean I would imagine that would have seemed like it to anybody that witnessed anything like taking place.
25:35
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
25:35
SPEAKER_04: And at the time, they had a 20 square mile perimeter set around Sugarloaf Mountain, which was where Shornock was last known to be.
25:46
SPEAKER_04: And a 20 square mile perimeter requires some serious manpower.
25:50
SPEAKER_05: So how were the members of the Asheville Police Department selected, or did they volunteer once the call was made?
25:56
SPEAKER_05: Do you know?
25:57
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
25:57
SPEAKER_04: At the time, there were several SWAT teams or tactical teams in Western North Carolina, but this was a time during which APD didn't have a SWAT team or an emergency response team or special response team, as they're called at other agencies.
26:14
SPEAKER_04: We didn't have any kind of tactical presence.
26:17
SPEAKER_04: Now, Henderson County had a SWAT team, uh, Highway Patrol had a SWAT team, the SBI had a SWAT team.
26:24
SPEAKER_04: I think Rutherford County, surprisingly enough, even had a tactical team of sorts that were all a part of this manhunt.
26:30
SPEAKER_04: But when APD got the call to join, then Chief Hensley was quick to answer the call, but he didn't have a tactical team of his own to supply.
26:40
SPEAKER_04: So what Chief Hensley did was select a dozen officers who either had military experience or had some experience of their own working for the police department.
26:55
SPEAKER_04: He was looking for officers who he thought could represent the department well, but could also conduct themselves appropriately when dealing with a fugitive who had now been involved in multiple gun battles with police officers.
27:11
SPEAKER_04: And by the time APD furnished its dozen men for this, Shornock had been involved in another shooting in Henderson County.
27:21
SPEAKER_05: Okay, so they've got the mountain surrounded.
27:23
SPEAKER_05: They've got Sugarloaf Mountain surrounded, got almost 500 officers out there.
27:27
SPEAKER_05: What's next?
27:28
SPEAKER_05: What happens next?
27:29
SPEAKER_04: So I want to take just a moment to touch base with the residents of Sugarloaf Mountain because we have, as I mentioned, a small army of law enforcement that have descended on this town.
27:40
SPEAKER_04: They have evacuated homes that are within their perimeter where they're looking for Shornock.
27:47
SPEAKER_04: As I mentioned, I think at the start of this, it was almost unrecognizable.
27:51
SPEAKER_04: And to put yourself in 1986 and think about what the residents of this sleepy mountain town are experiencing is really something else.
28:02
SPEAKER_04: At the time when school buses arrived to pick up children in the area on the Monday before Thanksgiving, there were armed officers on every bus that were armed with long guns as they were picking up and dropping off students.
28:16
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
28:17
SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's how volatile the situation was and how seriously they were taking the Shornock threat.
28:23
SPEAKER_04: It's also worth noting that during this manhunt, deer season opened.
28:27
SPEAKER_04: And in Western North Carolina, the the deer season opener is somewhat of a religious experience for those who hunt.
28:34
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
28:34
SPEAKER_04: It's everybody's out, and in this case, Shornock was the only person in the woods on Sugarloaf Mountain, which was not normal.
28:43
SPEAKER_04: That's how seriously the town was taking it.
28:46
SPEAKER_04: And by this point, the media had also descended on Henderson County along with all the law enforcement that were there.
28:55
SPEAKER_04: And at one point, they interviewed a Henderson County resident who stood before a TV camera holding his shotgun.
29:03
SPEAKER_04: And he said, Let Shornock come to my house.
29:08
SPEAKER_04: Unfortunately, whether Shornock saw that video or not, I don't know.
29:12
SPEAKER_04: But Shornock took him up on the offer and broke into the man's house later that night, the night of the newscast, and stole food and a Jeep from the man.
29:24
SPEAKER_04: And so by, I believe it was Monday before Thanksgiving, Shornock attempted to escape by making his way through one of the barricades or one of the roadblocks that had been set up.
29:36
SPEAKER_04: He got in a gun battle with the officers that were in the roadblock, and they gave Chase he abandoned the Jeep and set a trap on the Jeep where he was hiding in thick fog that had descended over all of Edenville.
29:50
SPEAKER_04: So again, when we're looking at the town of Eneyville in this what's supposed to be a joyful time of year, they aren't able to hunt.
29:58
SPEAKER_04: They've got armed guard guards on school buses, Shornock is in the area, a small army is there, and a thick fog descends on the mountain, making conditions for the manhunt and for the town at large very eerie.
30:13
SPEAKER_04: He really ruined their Thanksgiving.
30:15
SPEAKER_04: Well let's come back to that point in a minute.
30:20
SPEAKER_04: So as his pursuers go after him after he tries to shoot his way through a roadblock, he abandons his Jeep and sets a trap on it.
30:28
SPEAKER_04: He's hiding in wait to ambush the officers that approach the Jeep.
30:32
SPEAKER_04: As I mentioned, there's low clouds, heavy fog, terrible rain, and he opens fire on the officers that are approaching his car, striking a Henderson County deputy in the face and a highway patrolman in the leg.
30:47
SPEAKER_05: Oh man.
30:48
SPEAKER_04: Now, miraculously, the Henderson County deputy recovered from his wounds, and the trooper had a magazine for his rifle Mini 14 in his pocket, and the magazine caught Shornock's bullet.
31:04
SPEAKER_04: So he was unharmed.
31:05
SPEAKER_04: He was unharmed, and the Henderson County deputy later recovered, but was hospitalized and Shornock escaped again.
31:12
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
31:13
SPEAKER_04: So this is about the time at which Asheville supplies its dozen officers who initially, for the first day or two that they're there, are relegated to manning one of the roadblocks.
31:27
SPEAKER_04: But by Wednesday, the day before Thanksgiving, Henderson County, which is in command of this manhunt, decides that it's time to collapse the perimeter and find Shornock.
31:39
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
31:39
SPEAKER_04: Squeeze him out.
31:40
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think after several days of holding a large perimeter and saturating the area and engaging multiple times with an armed Shornock who wasn't behaving like any manhunt suspect that the Henderson County Sheriff's Office had ever dealt with in the past.
32:00
SPEAKER_05: So he wasn't really trying to get away.
32:03
SPEAKER_05: It seemed like he was trying to engage almost.
32:06
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
32:06
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
32:06
SPEAKER_04: In fact, the a Henderson County captain that was over the manhunt at the time told the press, and this is a quote in other manhunts we've had in this area, the suspect would run and run and try and get away.
32:20
SPEAKER_04: They didn't just shoot police.
32:22
SPEAKER_04: This guy would run to a spot where he could shoot officers and then run again.
32:26
SPEAKER_04: He wasn't trying to escape.
32:27
SPEAKER_05: We talked about this a little bit in the uh in the first part, in the last episode, that he kind of foresaw his own demise.
32:33
SPEAKER_05: He had told his family that it was going to end poorly for him at some point.
32:37
SPEAKER_05: You think I mean it's impossible to read into the man, you know, to read his brain at this point, but you think he'd pretty much just come to the realization it's going to end here and I'm just going to end in my own terms.
32:46
SPEAKER_04: Well, it's funny that you mentioned that because what Schwarnock's mom said at the time, in response to what the Henderson County captain said was, and this is also a quote, this was a game like chess on his own terms.
32:57
SPEAKER_04: Well, there you go.
32:58
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's the general impression that everybody was starting to gather.
33:02
SPEAKER_04: His family already knew it.
33:03
SPEAKER_04: His brother had told the media earlier that it was going to be a shootout, and whoever had the most guns was going to win.
33:14
SPEAKER_04: And I think that the family had come to terms with that early, and law enforcement by this second engagement where he actually shoots two officers, not just shoots at, but hits two officers.
33:28
SPEAKER_04: They realize that this is much different than what they've dealt with in the past, and that the hunt for Shornock is likely not going to end with him surrendering himself.
33:40
SPEAKER_05: We're discussing the manhunt for Michael John Shornock with Asheville Police Detective Sam DeGrave.
33:46
SPEAKER_05: So we're getting down to the final days' hours at this point.
33:49
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
33:50
SPEAKER_04: So by Wednesday, the day before Thanksgiving, Henderson County had decided that they were going to start clearing out some of the residences that had been evacuated at the base of Sugarloaf Mountain.
34:04
SPEAKER_04: This was the last known area that Chornock was in.
34:08
SPEAKER_04: And after not having seen him for a couple of days since that Monday roadblock shootout, they figured that with the weather being as bad as it was, the only way that they wouldn't have encountered him yet, and the only way that he would be surviving is by ramsacking one of these vacant houses.
34:28
SPEAKER_04: So they had identified half dozen to a dozen evacuated houses that they were going to clear, and they started putting together a plan of attack.
34:38
SPEAKER_04: And that involved, for the first time, the Asheville officers who had been removed from their roadblock duty and were embedded with an SBI tactical team.
34:48
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
34:48
SPEAKER_04: And they had every tactical team that they had got bolstered by other officers that were present.
34:56
SPEAKER_04: And they were going to go in a large caravan up the road and they were going to stop off at each house, and one tactical team would get the first house they came to, the next tactical team would get the next house on up, and they would leapfrog up the houses until they had cleared all these evacuated residences.
35:13
SPEAKER_05: And again, most people know, but for those that don't, SBI is the State Bureau of Investigation, correct?
35:18
SPEAKER_05: That's correct.
35:19
SPEAKER_04: All right.
35:19
SPEAKER_04: So Asheville's delegation in this manhunt was embedded with a SBI tactical team, and they got one of the first houses that they were coming to.
35:28
SPEAKER_04: And as they approached, because Asheville didn't have a tactical team of its own, and it's it's worth noting what all that means.
35:36
SPEAKER_04: As I mentioned earlier, the National Guard was supplying some officers with flak vests or ballistic vests that didn't weren't outfitted with them.
35:44
SPEAKER_04: I believe Asheville was at the time.
35:47
SPEAKER_04: But when we talk about tactical teams and SWAT, SWAT stands for those who aren't familiar, special weapons and tactics.
35:54
SPEAKER_04: And in this case, Michael John Shornock was armed with special weapons for sure.
36:00
SPEAKER_04: And he had special tactics from his own training, we believe.
36:05
SPEAKER_04: But he was armed with a 30 carbine rifle, and that's what he was using to shoot at these police officers.
36:11
SPEAKER_04: Asheville police, on the other hand, were issued at that time 357 Magnum six-shooter wheel guns and Remington 870 12-gauge shotguns.
36:22
SPEAKER_05: I mean the handgun great at short distance.
36:24
SPEAKER_05: It's not going to get you anything long distance, of course.
36:26
SPEAKER_05: And the Remingtons, they're certainly not what you would consider 1986 high-tech.
36:32
SPEAKER_05: No.
36:32
SPEAKER_04: This is technology that, in some cases, Wild West technology up against a high-powered rifle that has it beat on accuracy range, uh, magazine capacity.
36:45
SPEAKER_04: And they didn't know what else Shornock had with him because he, if you recall from part one, had burglarized a pawn shop and stolen several firearms.
36:54
SPEAKER_04: He had broken into multiple houses where firearms were present, including our brave Henderson County resident who challenged Shornock.
37:02
SPEAKER_04: So they are up against an opponent that has them beat in tactics, that has them beat in weaponry.
37:09
SPEAKER_04: And the tactical teams of the time were on more equal footing, at least.
37:14
SPEAKER_04: Uh, Henderson County's team, I believe, had HK-416 rifles.
37:19
SPEAKER_04: So a rifle, they had semi-automatic 45-caliber handguns.
37:24
SPEAKER_04: So they they were better equipped.
37:26
SPEAKER_04: The plan for the approach on these residences was that the tactical teams would take the lion's share of the work.
37:33
SPEAKER_04: They would be the ones making entry into the houses, clearing the residences, and the patrol officers or deputies that were embedded with each of the tactical teams would take a perimeter role.
37:45
SPEAKER_04: They would set a perimeter around the property, and then the attack team that they were with would actually make the entry.
37:52
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, put them somewhere where they're comfortable, where they're familiar.
37:54
SPEAKER_04: And where they had equipment that was the right tools for the right job.
37:57
SPEAKER_04: Got it.
37:58
SPEAKER_04: So the plan as Asheville with this SBI tack team was that Asheville would surround the building and SBI would clear it.
38:07
SPEAKER_04: And their position in the caravan meant that they were gonna hit either the first or the second house that they came to.
38:12
SPEAKER_04: But as they approached, they noticed that there was a dilapidated mule barn on the outskirts of this house's property.
38:19
SPEAKER_04: And the plan changed slightly because they had to move past this building.
38:30
SPEAKER_04: And then head to the house.
38:32
SPEAKER_04: While that was happening, Asheville was going to approach the house, set the perimeter.
38:37
SPEAKER_04: So at the very least, if Shornock was inside and saw them coming, they would be able to apprehend him at the time that he fled the house.
38:45
SPEAKER_04: And once that perimeter was set, they were gonna wait on the SBI team that was clearing the barn to then join them at the house, clear the house, and then they would move on to the next one.
38:54
SPEAKER_04: Gotcha.
38:55
SPEAKER_04: And this was happening simultaneously with several tag teams hitting several houses at the same time.
39:01
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
39:01
SPEAKER_04: That plan did not unfold the way that they wanted it to.
39:06
SPEAKER_04: In fact, almost immediately things were changed because of Short Knock.
39:12
SPEAKER_04: So as Asheville was approaching the house that they were going to set a perimeter on, gunfire erupted from the mule barn and they were still in cars, so they had to jump out of the cars.
39:23
SPEAKER_04: They didn't know what was happening, but they knew that they needed to get to that mule barn.
39:28
SPEAKER_04: So what happened in the mule barn was that the SBI tack team had developed a strategy of their own.
39:35
SPEAKER_04: When they entered the barn, there were several stalls, and they decided one of them would shovel mule manure and throw it over a stall door while the other one kicked open the door.
39:47
SPEAKER_04: I love this.
39:48
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it was it was tactics on the fly, right?
39:51
SPEAKER_04: They they were gonna distract him by hopefully hitting him in the face with a mule patty right as they kicked open the door to uh address him.
39:59
SPEAKER_04: It's a less sophisticated uh flashbang, if you will.
40:04
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, this is this is more viable for a Netflix series by the minute.
40:07
SPEAKER_05: I mean, I I could only imagine the filming of this particular scene.
40:11
SPEAKER_05: It would add for a little bit of comedic element almost, yeah, in a way.
40:14
SPEAKER_04: So not a bag tactic.
40:16
SPEAKER_04: Uh definitely not one that our SWAT team currently trains on.
40:21
SPEAKER_05: Well, again, you got to improvise, adapt, overcome.
40:23
SPEAKER_05: I mean, it's just, you know.
40:25
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
40:26
SPEAKER_04: And it might have worked.
40:27
SPEAKER_04: The issue was that Shornock happened to be in the last stall.
40:32
SPEAKER_04: So by the time they got to him, they had played out this mule paddy over the door, bust in the door strategy half a dozen times.
40:40
SPEAKER_04: So it might have worked if it was in the first stall or two, but he was in the last one, of course.
40:44
SPEAKER_04: So he was in the last one and he had heard it play out at every step prior.
40:49
SPEAKER_04: So he had time to plan his exit.
40:50
SPEAKER_04: Well, he had time to plan his ambush, which is what happened.
40:53
SPEAKER_04: Oh, okay.
40:54
SPEAKER_04: So mule patty comes over the door, door flies open, Shornock is ready, and he opens fire on the SBI agents, striking one of them in the abdomen and one of them in the arm.
41:05
SPEAKER_04: Oh boy.
41:06
SPEAKER_04: At the time, there were some, I believe, Buncombe County uh deputies that were also assisting and were near the perimeter of the mule barn.
41:14
SPEAKER_04: But once these SBI tactical officers take fire and are hit, they bail out one of the exits of the mule barn.
41:22
SPEAKER_04: Shornock runs out the other exit.
41:25
SPEAKER_04: And this is the point at which APD has heard the shots fired and they're making their approach to assist.
41:33
SPEAKER_04: Now, about 10 of the APD officers that were making the approach to that mule barn decided to take the fastest possible route to the mule barn from where they were, which was through a small ravine that they weren't aware until they got into the middle of it was thick with thorns, which slowed their progress as they were making their way as fast as they could to the mule barn.
41:57
SPEAKER_04: Two of their officers, however, decided to run the long path along the road that they came in on that wrapped back around the mule barn to attempt to flank Shornock, not knowing exactly what was happening in that mule barn.
42:13
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
42:14
SPEAKER_04: The officers that attempted the flank ran around the edge, and as they gained a view of the side of the barn, they saw Shornock run out, and Shornock, several people said at the time, was laughing as he ran out and swiveled with his rifle to point it at the officers that were around the barn.
42:34
SPEAKER_04: Now, at this point, it's worth noting that the two officers from the Asheville Police Department who were in that flanking position, who now were staring about a hundred yards at Shornock, pointing a rifle at other law enforcement officers, were equipped with similar equipment to what we talked about a minute ago.
42:54
SPEAKER_04: One of them had a Remington 870 with a simple bead sight on it.
42:58
SPEAKER_04: The other one had a 30 aught six hunting rifle, essentially, that had been checked out of the property room before this manhunt just for it.
43:06
SPEAKER_04: So it wasn't even their weapon.
43:08
SPEAKER_04: So not a weapon they were familiar with, like intimately.
43:11
SPEAKER_04: I'm not even sure if it had been sighted.
43:13
SPEAKER_04: It was certainly not what our response would be today.
43:17
SPEAKER_04: And the difference in part is because this happened.
43:20
SPEAKER_05: And we'll talk more about that in the next episode.
43:23
SPEAKER_04: These officers find themselves a hundred yards from Shornock, who is has just shot two officers, is turning to point his gun at other officers.
43:33
SPEAKER_04: He is quite clearly a threat to those officers, and he's escaping by means of a deadly weapon.
43:39
SPEAKER_04: And so they take aim and fire upon Shornock.
43:42
SPEAKER_04: The officer who has the 30 aught six misses.
43:46
SPEAKER_04: The officer with the 870 has five shells in his magazine tube and in the gun.
43:52
SPEAKER_04: The first two are slugs, subsequent three are double opt, but as he puts his bead sight over short.
44:00
SPEAKER_04: And he squeezes off the first, he sees no change in Shornock's behavior.
44:04
SPEAKER_04: He follows it up with a second, and at ninety-seven yards, which is what the shot was ultimately measured at by the SBI, the State Bureau of Investigation, which investigated a bead sight on a shotgun will basically cover up a person.
44:18
SPEAKER_04: So he places his bead over Shornock and pulls the trigger for a second time, and Shornock goes down.
44:24
SPEAKER_05: Wow.
44:24
SPEAKER_04: He was hit in the head, the slug went in the back of his head, exited the front, and the manhunt for Michael John Shornock and the threat that he had posed to everybody was was over.
44:36
SPEAKER_05: And the name of that officer was John Kirkpatrick with one hell of a shot.
44:43
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's interesting because one of the officers who was on scene with the Asheville Police Department, uh not the one that made the shot, but that was present for that manhunt and ended up being a member, a founding member of Asheville's emergency response team, uh which was founded in part because of what happened on Sugarloaf Mountain during the Shorenock manhunt, said that it was Kirkpatrick who pulled the trigger, but at that distance with a moving target, it was God that made that shot.
45:16
SPEAKER_04: Definitely reeks of divine intervention.
45:18
SPEAKER_04: They said that Chief Hensley joked when they got back that he didn't need to qualify on his shotgun that year after making that shot.
45:25
SPEAKER_05: For every guy that's ever been to the county fair and can't hit the clown's mouth from ten yards away with the with the gun they provide you, this guy hit a moving target at a hundred yards and uh and ended the danger for all the officers there that day.
45:39
SPEAKER_05: There must have been a pretty good celebration that night, I would imagine.
45:42
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
45:43
SPEAKER_04: In fact, back at the command post, which was not far from where this manhunt ultimately ended, everybody, members of the community, firefighters, medics, other people who had been called in for the manhunt but were resting or not otherwise occupied in this final sweep of Sugarloaf Mountain, were listening to the radio traffic, uh all on the edge of their seat, wondering how it was going to end.
46:09
SPEAKER_04: They heard the call of shots fired and that officers had been hit, and finally they heard that Shornock was down.
46:17
SPEAKER_04: And when that call came over the radio, a reporter that was in the room at the time remarked that cheers erupted in the entire command post.
46:25
SPEAKER_04: I'd be surprised if the reporter wasn't part of the people cheering at the conclusion of this long big event.
46:32
SPEAKER_04: And it was it was funny the reporter then remarked that uh one of the officers that was back at the command post as he pumped the remaining shells out of his shotgun, said, It looks like we'll have Thanksgiving after all.
46:46
SPEAKER_04: There we go.
46:46
SPEAKER_05: See, there we go.
46:47
SPEAKER_05: We talked about that earlier.
46:48
SPEAKER_05: So you said let's come back to that, and we did.
46:50
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
46:52
SPEAKER_04: So all told, Shornock had shot and actually hit two SBI agents, a Henderson County deputy, a North Carolina state trooper.
47:03
SPEAKER_04: He had shot at another deputy and injured him with when he shot through the windshield and caused glass to enter the deputy's eyes.
47:11
SPEAKER_04: He had shot at police officers in eastern North Carolina fleeing the scene of that bank robbery.
47:18
SPEAKER_04: And so he had hit or shot at about half a dozen police officers, seriously injuring several of them.
47:25
SPEAKER_04: And I guess there was reason to give thanks that year because all of the law enforcement officers who were shot by Shornock ended up recovering and making a full recovery.
47:38
SPEAKER_04: And it's some miracle that the only person who lost their life throughout this entire manhunt that spanned multiple states over the course of several months was Shornock.
47:51
SPEAKER_05: And that ends the manhunt for Michael John Shornock, but it does not end our story because, as you had kind of alluded to while we were talking, that some of the events and the tactics and the execution and the lack of equipment, the lack of tactics and things of that nature led to the formation of Asheville's first ERT emergency response team.
48:13
SPEAKER_04: That's correct.
48:14
SPEAKER_04: The history of Asheville's emergency response team starts with the Shore Knock Man hunt, and it took some time to get off the ground, and I reckon that's what we'll be talking about next time.
48:24
SPEAKER_05: You are correct, Detective Sam de Grave.
48:27
SPEAKER_05: We will have more on that.
48:29
SPEAKER_05: The formation of Asheville's ERT, our emergency response team, uh which a lot of people know as the SWAT team.
48:36
SPEAKER_05: Uh I mean there's been TV shows that were I don't think there's ever been an ERT show.
48:40
SPEAKER_05: I know there's been a SWAT.
48:42
SPEAKER_05: Uh so most people familiar with that term and knowing what they do.
48:45
SPEAKER_05: So we will talk about that more on the next uh episode of the APD Pod Squad.
48:50
SPEAKER_05: Thank you, Detective Sam de Grave.
48:52
SPEAKER_05: Thank you, Rick.
48:54
SPEAKER_05: Well, that's a wrap for episode three of the APD Pod Squad.
48:58
SPEAKER_05: Thank you to Senior Police Officer Lakeisha Hawes, Sergeant Brian Hogan, and Detective Sam de Grave for joining me.
49:04
SPEAKER_05: On the next episode, getting to know Sergeant Jonathan Collins.
49:07
SPEAKER_05: He's got a great backstory.
49:09
SPEAKER_05: Another edition of Ask the Chief with Chief Mike Lamb, Senior Police Officer Christopher Stramolo from Community Engagement, and we welcome back Detective Sam deGrave to discuss what happened after the manhunt for Michael John Shornock, the formation of Asheville's first ERT emergency response team.
49:32
SPEAKER_05: And we might even have a special guest to join us for that.
49:35
SPEAKER_05: Thanks for listening.
49:36
SPEAKER_05: I'm Rick Rice, and this is the APD Fox Watch.