Latest / The Week in Bible Prophecy / Apostasy vs The "Falling Away," and the Man of Sin | Lee Brainard

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Apostasy vs The "Falling Away," and the Man of Sin | Lee Brainard · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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  Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy a Prophecy Watchers podcast.
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  Speaker 2: And I've got a guest sitting across from me today
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  Speaker 2: who is, well, let's just say, very very interesting, leave Brainerd.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to prophecy Watchers. You know, our subject involves a
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  Speaker 2: single word, and I'm not going to say the word.
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  Speaker 2: I will let you say it first. But there is
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  Speaker 2: a single word that has brought more discussion than many
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  Speaker 2: entire books of the Bible have brought.
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  Speaker 1: Right, Yes, And in academic circles they're probably going to
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  Speaker 1: pronounce it apostasia. I typically anglicize my Greek words for
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  Speaker 1: the benefit of the entry level students, and I call it.
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  Speaker 2: Apostaca, okay, And I think that's the way I hear
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  Speaker 2: it most of the time. Ye, apostaca. And I'm just
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  Speaker 2: going to ask a simple question. That word is found
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  Speaker 2: in the Bible. What does it mean.
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  Speaker 1: Well, the word apostasea is a rebellion or a departure. Apostasy.
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  Speaker 1: You have to determine by the context the exact nuance
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  Speaker 1: that you're going to run with, depending on the subject matter.
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  Speaker 2: And there is a book in the Bible, second Thessalonians,
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  Speaker 2: chapter two, verse three that says this, Let no man
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  Speaker 2: deceive you by any means, for that day shall not
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  Speaker 2: come except their come a falling away first, and the
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  Speaker 2: man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. Now
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  Speaker 2: I read that third verse, and nowhere did I find
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  Speaker 2: the word apostasia. I read across it in English?
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  Speaker 1: And which word did you reader? Which phrase did you
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  Speaker 1: read that you think is probably the word?
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  Speaker 2: Probably it is a falling away first, That's right, okay,
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  Speaker 2: Now that's makes perfect sense to me. A falling away
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  Speaker 2: would mean a departure from the faith, of people losing
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  Speaker 2: their faith, perhaps becoming discouraged. And the book, the letter
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  Speaker 2: the second Tasalonians is encouraging, that is to say, it
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  Speaker 2: desires to encourage you.
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely, and that's really a good introduction to the subject
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  Speaker 1: of the subject of encouragement. The Thessalonian Church was the
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  Speaker 1: first church in early church history to go through extremely
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  Speaker 1: severe persecution. That persecution that they were undergoing was really
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  Speaker 1: the cause of their concern. They had been taught a
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  Speaker 1: pre tribulation rapture by Paul when Paul was his initial
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  Speaker 1: three week visit. And it's interesting to observe that Paul
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  Speaker 1: regarded prophecy to be important enough that he actually taught
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  Speaker 1: them prophecy when he was only with them for three weeks.
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  Speaker 1: But they obviously misunderstood the pre tribulation rapture teaching, or
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  Speaker 1: they got their cage rattled somehow, because later on they're
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  Speaker 1: right now to Paul, and they're afraid that they are
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  Speaker 1: in the day of the Lord because they were undergoing
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  Speaker 1: some serious tribulation. And that's where the encouragement comes in
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  Speaker 1: because Paul writes.
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  Speaker 2: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our
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  Speaker 2: Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. Wow. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: I love that phrase, and I'm looking looking forward to
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  Speaker 2: that gathering together. The second verse that you be not
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  Speaker 2: soon shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit,
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  Speaker 2: nor by word, nor by letter, as from us, as
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  Speaker 2: that the Day of Christ is at hand. Now this
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  Speaker 2: is the King James Bible. Yes, and it's again it's
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  Speaker 2: encouraging me. It wants me to pick up, take a
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  Speaker 2: deep breath, and get back on track, which is what
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  Speaker 2: I'm trying to do here.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And the encouragement comes in with the fact that
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  Speaker 1: Paul's basically saying listen because of the fact of the rapture.
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  Speaker 1: You guys are going up. You don't have to worry
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  Speaker 1: about the day of the Lord. You are not going
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  Speaker 1: through the Day of the Lord. You're not going through
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  Speaker 1: the tribulation. So even though you're facing tribulation, you don't
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  Speaker 1: have to worry about the great tribulation at the end.
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  Speaker 2: Of the age. Now, I should say right up front,
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  Speaker 2: and I'm sitting across from Lee, and I'm holding a book,
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  Speaker 2: and the title of the book is Apostasia in Second
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  Speaker 2: Tessalonians two three, and then it has a question rapture
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  Speaker 2: or apostasy, And I gather from this that there's a
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  Speaker 2: large scale discussion going on about just exactly how to
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  Speaker 2: approach these verses.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And the discussion comes up because the early English
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  Speaker 1: translations prior to the King James Well actually to be
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  Speaker 1: technically accurate, prior to the Bishop's Bible, often use the
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  Speaker 1: word departure instead of falling away, rebellion, apostasy, or translations
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  Speaker 1: of that nature. And so the theory goes that Paul
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  Speaker 1: was talking about a physical departure, which it could be
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  Speaker 1: the rapture of the Church physically departing Earth, as opposed
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  Speaker 1: to a spiritual apostasy or spiritual rebellion. And that's where
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  Speaker 1: the controversy has come up. When we read first Second Discalonians,
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  Speaker 1: Chapter two, verses one through three, we get into verse
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  Speaker 1: three is apostasa, which the King James says falling away?
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  Speaker 1: Is this actually the rapture of the church like a departure?
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  Speaker 1: Or is this an apostasy?
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  Speaker 2: Now I'll ask you a question. I'm sure you've read
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  Speaker 2: many different English translations of this, and I'm going to
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  Speaker 2: ask you to sort of give me an overview. What
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  Speaker 2: do most modern English translations of chapter chapter two, verse
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  Speaker 2: three give you? What do they want you to believe?
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  Speaker 1: Well, the verse three, which i'll read here in the
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  Speaker 1: King James version, says, let no one deceive you. I
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  Speaker 1: think I'm in the King James version here, No i
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  Speaker 1: am not. Let me pull up the King I'm in
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  Speaker 1: the new King James. I want to pull up the
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  Speaker 1: King James.
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  Speaker 2: Bible, all right. And while you are I'm doing that.
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to say again that when I read these verses,
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  Speaker 2: and I didn't read them with any idea in my
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  Speaker 2: head prior to reading them, but I kind of felt
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  Speaker 2: a good feeling. Amen, when I read those verses. It's
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  Speaker 2: Paul saying to me, come on, cheer up, I've got
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  Speaker 2: good news here.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. Now I'm going to break it down into
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  Speaker 1: the first verse what it says, and then the second verse,
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  Speaker 1: and then move into the third because that well, actually
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  Speaker 1: the progression will explain the thought that many people have
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  Speaker 1: now in the King James and the King James is
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  Speaker 1: the one modern major translation that really nails the first
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  Speaker 1: part of this in the translation where they say, now
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  Speaker 1: we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord
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  Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, and by we're gathering together unto him. And
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  Speaker 1: this is an accurate translation of the Greek preposition who
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  Speaker 1: pair when it's used in a request formula, request is
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  Speaker 1: going to have the verb of request like beseech or
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  Speaker 1: ask or plead, and then it's going to have the
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  Speaker 1: request itself, which can be stated in various ways. And
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  Speaker 1: then if it has a who pair clause the Greek
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  Speaker 1: preposition who pair, that gives us the cause or the
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  Speaker 1: ground for the request. So what we have here in
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  Speaker 1: the King James and they really nail this. They say,
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  Speaker 1: we beseech you because of or on account of the
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  Speaker 1: coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Then we drop down
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  Speaker 1: to verse two not to worry about the day of
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  Speaker 1: the Lord, or the King James says, not to worry
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  Speaker 1: about the day of Christ. And so the modern versions
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  Speaker 1: beyond the King James typically translate we beseech you or no,
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  Speaker 1: they'll say, now concerning the coming of the Lord. So
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  Speaker 1: it's a very different rendering. They they're going to render
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  Speaker 1: the preposition like it's parry about our concerning, and it
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  Speaker 1: really changes the flavor. And I like to just point
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  Speaker 1: out this is I'm asking you, because of the rapture
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  Speaker 1: not to worry about the day of the Lord.
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  Speaker 2: And so concerning is a level lower in its assertiveness.
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  Speaker 1: Why that's right, It sure is.
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  Speaker 2: So there's a tendency then in the world of translation
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  Speaker 2: to sort of scale back this prophecy.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, the modern versions I think make it more difficult
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  Speaker 1: to understand the pre tribulation rapture in these first three
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  Speaker 1: verses here in second Thestalonians Chapter two, and the King
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  Speaker 1: James made it much easier to understand the pre tribulation
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  Speaker 1: rapture here. And so this is one of the reasons
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  Speaker 1: why many people today that are going in the pre
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  Speaker 1: wrath direction or the post trip direction they don't want it.
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  Speaker 1: They don't like the King James version in this passage.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to ask you a question from my
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  Speaker 2: own personal viewpoint. That is just this is me asking
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  Speaker 2: you a question. I've always loved it when I'm reading
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  Speaker 2: the Bible and I find a passage of scripture that
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  Speaker 2: brings me up to a higher state of excitement.
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  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 2: Wow, it says by the coming of our Lord g
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  Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. And already you've got my attention. And I
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  Speaker 2: think what you're saying is there's maybe a tendency in
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  Speaker 2: the opposite direction in some schools of thought and otherfords.
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  Speaker 2: They want to be very conservative. We don't want to
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  Speaker 2: really talk that much about the coming of Jesus Christ
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  Speaker 2: because nobody is really sure about when he's coming. And
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  Speaker 2: what we want to solt pedal this a little bit
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  Speaker 2: is that the thinking that's going on.
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  Speaker 1: I'm sure that there are people that go down that path.
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  Speaker 1: But what people do with the softening of this, the
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  Speaker 1: rendering of concerning a lot of what they're doing is
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  Speaker 1: they're equating the rapture and the second Coming, so that
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  Speaker 1: you'll read here like in some of the modern versions
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  Speaker 1: where it says now concerning the coming of our Lord
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  Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, brethren, we ask. And what they're doing is
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  Speaker 1: they're going to equate the rapture in verse one with
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  Speaker 1: the day of Christ or the day of the Lord
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  Speaker 1: in verse two. And when you do that, you're going
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  Speaker 1: to lose a pre tribulation rapture focus. Because what he
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  Speaker 1: goes honestly, let no man deceive you by any means
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  Speaker 1: of verse three, for that day is not here except
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  Speaker 1: they're come of falling away first in the Man of
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  Speaker 1: Cindy revealed, and they're saying, see here the Lord talks
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  Speaker 1: about the coming and the gathering, and that coming in
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  Speaker 1: gathering is the day of Christ. It is the day
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  Speaker 1: of the Lord. And we know that that's at the
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  Speaker 1: second coming. And so Paul is teaching us a post
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  Speaker 1: tribulation rapture here. That's their line of thinking. And this
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  Speaker 1: is a mistaken line of thinking. And that's why I
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  Speaker 1: like to emphasize the King James, what they have the
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  Speaker 1: word by. They're going in the right direction.
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  Speaker 2: And when you read the end of verse two as
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  Speaker 2: that the day of Christ is at hand, yes, then
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  Speaker 2: you have to ask yourself, well, what does at hand mean?
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  Speaker 2: That's kind of a strange expression. Yeah, we use it,
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  Speaker 2: but in our daily speech, but not very often. Yes,
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  Speaker 2: So what does that mean? Well, and you, of course
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  Speaker 2: you read the Greek ye, and let's talk about that. Well.
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  Speaker 1: It really is an interesting perspective here, because if we
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  Speaker 1: take at hand in a very generic way, that can
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  Speaker 1: be at hand, way in the distant future, but it's
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  Speaker 1: it's going to be getting here soon. But in the
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  Speaker 1: biblical perspective, at hand means it's right here, it's on
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  Speaker 1: top of us. And if we understand what the King
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  Speaker 1: James is conveying here, then at hand is a legitimate translation.
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  Speaker 1: If we don't understand the King James language, then we're
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  Speaker 1: then we can be led astray by the language. Now.
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  Speaker 1: Mondo has pointed out on various occasions that the Greek
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  Speaker 1: verb here and estekin were is actually best represented by
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  Speaker 1: is here or is present, which means the same thing
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  Speaker 1: as at hand, it's right just on top of us,
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  Speaker 1: but it's less likely to be misunderstood. And so the
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  Speaker 1: idea here is don't let anyone deceive you. You are
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  Speaker 1: not in the day of the Lord. It's not here.
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  Speaker 2: Well, then we should rotate back to the beginning of
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  Speaker 2: this and define Day of the Lord. Amen, and tell
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  Speaker 2: us now what is in this context? What is the
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  Speaker 2: day of the Lord? Well?
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  Speaker 1: And that two can be confusing for some people because
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  Speaker 1: some versions say Day of Christ and some say Day
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  Speaker 1: of the Lord. And some Bible teachers make a distinction
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  Speaker 1: between the Day of the Lord and the Day of Christ,
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  Speaker 1: and they say the Day of Christ is positive and
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  Speaker 1: the Day of the Lord's negative. The day of Christ
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  Speaker 1: the deliverance of the believers, and the Day of the
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  Speaker 1: Lord is the judgment of the ungodly. And that's legitimate
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  Speaker 1: to make a distinction like that. But we do run
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  Speaker 1: into a little bit of difficulty here because if we're
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  Speaker 1: going to run consistent with this distinction, then the day
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  Speaker 1: of the Lord or the Day of Christ for a
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  Speaker 1: textual difference is a huge question. But I like to
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  Speaker 1: look at this a little bit different angle. I say,
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  Speaker 1: the Day of Christ in the Day of the Lord
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  Speaker 1: refer to the same thing. The Day of Christ is.
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  Speaker 1: Looking at it from the perspective of the believers, it's
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  Speaker 1: the day of their Messiah. The Day of the Lord looks,
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  Speaker 1: at the same time, from the negative perspective, this is
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  Speaker 1: the righteous, indignant Lord descending from heaven. And judgment. So
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  Speaker 1: we're not going to lose anything whether the Day of
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  Speaker 1: Christ is the best rendering or the Day of the
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  Speaker 1: Lord is the best rendering as far as accuracy on
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  Speaker 1: a major scale, because it's bringing us to the same
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  Speaker 1: time frame. Now, I prefer the rendering the Day of
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  Speaker 1: the Lord myself, and the Day of the Lord is
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  Speaker 1: approaching from the perspective of judgment, and the Lord's saying
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  Speaker 1: I know that. Well, the Lord's speaking through Paul here,
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  Speaker 1: and he's saying to the Thessalonians, I understand you're in a
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  Speaker 1: time of tribulation. Great empathy on our part, but you
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  Speaker 1: don't have to worry no matter how severe your tribulation gets.
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  Speaker 1: For you, Thessalonians, you are not in the Day of
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  Speaker 1: the Lord. And how do you know that you're not
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  Speaker 1: in the day of the Lord. We'll look around, do
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  Speaker 1: you see the Antichrist? No? And then you're not in
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  Speaker 1: the day of the Lord.
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  Speaker 2: Well, Paul writes then in verse three, and this is
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  Speaker 2: a phrase at the beginning of verse three that I've
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  Speaker 2: never really looked at this closely. It says, let no
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  Speaker 2: man deceive you by any means. Okay, that means that
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  Speaker 2: somebody's going to try to receive that's right. Paul is
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  Speaker 2: concerned here that somebody is going to try to deceive you.
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  Speaker 2: And now we have to understand what is this deception,
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  Speaker 2: what's the level of it, where's it coming from, and
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  Speaker 2: does it mean this or does it mean that? And
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  Speaker 2: this is a current, by the way, conversation, right, it
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  Speaker 2: sure is, because.
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  Speaker 1: Paul clearly taught the Thessalonians a pre tribulation rapture. They
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  Speaker 1: may in fact have been the first believers to ever
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  Speaker 1: hear about the pre tribulation rapture. This was very shortly
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  Speaker 1: after Paul received his revelation from the Lord about the
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  Speaker 1: mystery of the Church, the uniqueness of the Church, and
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  Speaker 1: the mystery of the rapture, the mystery of the uniqueness
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  Speaker 1: of the Lord's special place and Bible prophecy. So now
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  Speaker 1: he's dealing with the Thessalonians here and he is presenting
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  Speaker 1: them a pre tribulation rapture, and the enemy comes in
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  Speaker 1: like a flood and tries to throw out the pre
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  Speaker 1: tribulation rapture. Now we don't know for sure whatever they
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  Speaker 1: were facing. We don't know if they were told you
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  Speaker 1: guys missed the rapture, and you are in the tribulation,
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  Speaker 1: so that would have been like a partial rapture situation.
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  Speaker 1: Or maybe you guys just starn't good enough to go
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  Speaker 1: up in the rapture, or maybe they were being taught
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  Speaker 1: that Paul's wrong. There is no pre tribulation rapture. You
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  Speaker 1: have to go through the tribulation.
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  Speaker 2: And to me this makes a lot of sense because
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  Speaker 2: there are people who, for one reason or another, I
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  Speaker 2: would kind of like to pull their advanced wisdom on
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  Speaker 2: you and say, do you know, as a good Christian
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  Speaker 2: that you missed something that you should have gotten And
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  Speaker 2: they're pointing the finger at you and saying, you know
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  Speaker 2: you should have been watching because you've missed it. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: that's right, and that's sort of the spirit in which
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  Speaker 2: this is given. Let no man to see you by
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  Speaker 2: any means, meaning there are people out there who want
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  Speaker 2: to convince you of something, and the something is what
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  Speaker 2: we're talking about. Yeah, and we're seeing this in spades
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  Speaker 2: and face cards today in the church today, and you know,
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  Speaker 2: in particular with prophecy teaching, because the pre wrath rapture
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  Speaker 2: is spreading like wildfire through the church, where the church
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  Speaker 2: is going to go through most of the tribulation and
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  Speaker 2: only escape the last little few months or the post
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  Speaker 2: tribulation raptures growing like wildfire in the church, spreading like wildfire.
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  Speaker 2: People are going to go through the entire tribulation. And
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  Speaker 2: this has really contrary to this verse you talked earlier
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  Speaker 2: today about the excitement and the joy, the celebration of
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  Speaker 2: the rapture and what a blessingness is, because what Paul
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  Speaker 2: is saying here is, I beseech you, brethren, don't worry about.
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  Speaker 1: The day of the Lord. Why because we are going
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  Speaker 1: up to meet the Lord in the clouds. We are
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  Speaker 1: going to be gathered onto Jesus forever.
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  Speaker 2: And if somebody wants to wag the finger of judgment
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  Speaker 2: in your face, yeah and say listen, you'd better shape up.
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  Speaker 2: You may have missed it, or you may miss it, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: or you may have missed it already because you weren't
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  Speaker 2: faithful enough, or because you didn't do this or that.
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  Speaker 2: So there's kind of a judgmental note that we're dealing
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  Speaker 2: with here.
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  Speaker 1: There absolutely is, and Ever always comes in with an
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  Speaker 1: accusatory spirit. You know, truth comes in teaching a blessing
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  Speaker 1: from a positive angle, and then ever comes in with
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  Speaker 1: an accusatory spirit. You're you're missing this, you're missing that,
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  Speaker 1: You're not this, you're not that, and it's you know,
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  Speaker 1: you can be accused of not believing the truth because
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  Speaker 1: you don't believe it the way they think it should
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  Speaker 1: be understood. And I can imagine what it would be
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  Speaker 1: like to be these the Thessalonian believers, where whether you
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  Speaker 1: got a letter, or whether a pseudo apostle comes in,
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  Speaker 1: or whether a preacher came through and got you all
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  Speaker 1: stirred up, you guys have missed a tremendous blessing. You've
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  Speaker 1: missed the rapture, or there is no rapture, stealing the
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  Speaker 1: joy from the believer, stealing truth from them and having
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  Speaker 1: that upbraiding, exhorting, negative spirit.
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  Speaker 2: Now we haven't gotten to a word that we're going
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  Speaker 2: to be spending a lot of time with here. But
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: I'm so intrigued by this verse three, because it says,
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: let no man deceive you by any means, for that
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: day shall not come except there shall come a falling.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: It says in the King James A an indefinite article
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: a falling away. First in my version that I'm looking
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: at here, and so somebody is wagging the finger and
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: you're face and saying you missed it because you've got
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: the whole wrong idea here. Yeah, and maybe you have
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: been as faithful as you should have been.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Yep. And I like Paul's answer. He says, look, no, here,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: we can give a very clear, very simple issue or
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: an answer to this. Let no man deceive you that
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: day is not here or that day is not right
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: now at hand on top of you, unless there's a
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: falling away an apostasy first, and the man of sin
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: be revealed to see Antichrist. And what Paul is saying,
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: if we're going to paraphrase it very simply, look around.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Do you see the Antichrist? Do you see the apostasy
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: that the Antichrist is going to introduce to Israel in
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: particular and the world in general. Well, if the answer
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: is no, if you don't see the Antichrist, and you
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: don't see the Antichrist introducing Israel's apostasy in particular and
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: the world's apostasy in general, then you're not in the
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: day of the Lord. So don't worry about what these
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: other teachers are seeing. You don't need this esoteric knowledge.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: You don't need to take that secret prophecy. Course, you
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: don't need to read brother super smart book. All you
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: need to do is open your eyes. Look around. Do
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: you see the Antichrist? If you don't see the Antichrist,
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: guess what you're not in the Day of the Lord.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Now Here in this first three the man of sin
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: is called the son of Perdition. Yes, and now illuminate
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: that for us, because how do we know the man
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: of sin is the Antichrist? And why would we have
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: this term the son of perdition?
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, Well, the son of Perdition is referring to the
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: fact that the anti Christ, however you're going to explain
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: it theologically, he is going to rise out of the abyss.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: He's someone who is currently in Hell and he's going
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: to be on Earth. Now I put this together by
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: the fact that there's going to be a living human
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: politician last days who's going to receive a mortal wound
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: to the head, and when he dies, he's laying in
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: state and his soul has gone to Hell. When his
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: soul rises back up and reunites with his body for
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: the Satanic resurrection of the ani Christ, it's not his
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: original soul that comes back into his body. It's the
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: resurrection of one of the former Roman emperors, one of
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: the five. And you know, some people have speculated this
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: is Nero. Well, I don't engage much in the speculation
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: of which Roman emperor this is, but we know it's
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: going to be a very ungodly Roman emperor, a son
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: of the Abyss or a son of Perdition. It's going
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: to come back in. He's going to wow the world,
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: someone who has been long ago placed in you will,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: in the place that our son of tradition would go.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: That's right exactly. And then what's also interesting how we
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: know this man, this man of sin, is the Antichrist
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: because we read later on in verse four, who opposes
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: and exalts himself above all that is called God or
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: that is worshiped, so that he is God. Sits in
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: the Temple of God, demonstrating himself or declaring himself to
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: be God. So this of course takes this immediately to
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: a few other passages in the scriptures which we know
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: is a reference to the Antichrist.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: Now, to put this together, and this is very very
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: interesting to me because it's current. Yes, you people are
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: talking about the rapture of the church right now, I'm
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: seeing ads on television, on commercial television for books that
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: are saying it's not going to be long. You know
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: that the rapture could occur any day now, and it's
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: getting people's attention. So we're living in that kind of
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: an atmosphere right now, the very atmosphere which is spoken
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: to here in the Second Thessalonians chapter two. We don't
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: want people to be confused, says Paul. We want people
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: to be certain about the concept of the rapture.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: And by the way, you have written a book called Apostasia. Yes,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: you have thought about this a lot, perhaps a lot
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: more than anybody else. And I like the way that
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: you gave life to verse three. Here we have this
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: son of Perdition. He's opposing and exalting himself above all
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: that is called God or that is worshiped. And then
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: you pointed out that he is actually going to sit
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: in the temple of God and announce that he is God.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: That's exactly right.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: This is amazing.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is really now we're getting into to
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: what the Bible means by the falling away. Yes, now
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: it raise a question. Some versions have it without the
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: definite article, says a falling away or an apostasy. Some
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: versions are going to have it the rebellion, the falling away.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Mine has a falling away way.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: And if we go back to the Greek, it does
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: appear with the definite article. It's hey or he, depending
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: upon whose Greek translation I mean transliteration and pronunciation you prefer,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: I say hey, apostasia. So it's the apostasy. And in
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: this controversy of over whether this is going to be
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: a reference to the departure and the rapture, our departure
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: and a spiritual falling away spiritual departure, because it's talking
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: about a particular instance, it's the apostasia. And men will say, well,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: it can't be a reference to apostasy in general. I mean,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: look at the whole church age. We've had hundreds of
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: them apostasies over the years. How are we going to
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: know that there's any apostasy at the Last days is
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: distinct from the apostasies that appeared prior. Okay, it's a
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: legitimate consideration. There needs to be a distinct apostasy if
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: we're going to go with apostasy or falling away. And
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: they say, but the rapture is a very distinct event.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: This is the departure above all departures. And I can
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: follow that. Okay, that makes sense. Here's what we're looking
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: at here. Though, All of the early Church fathers that
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: addressed this passage, who addressed it in Greek, who were
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: fluent in Greek, who knew Greek, who read Greek, who
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: thought Greek, who wrote Greek, who talked Greek, all these men,
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: when they addressed his passage, none of them opposed a
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: physical departure, mentioned a physical departure, raised it as a
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: possibility for a physical departure. Nobody even heard of the idea.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: It never crossed their mind. They all saw rebellion our
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: departure here. There was a few of them that went
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: down the path the political rebellion, which was an ancient
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: doctrine that's no longer around. The majority of them went
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: with spiritual departure. They associated the falling away here with
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: the Antichrist. In fact, some of the early Church fathers
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: associated these things so closely that one of the titles
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: for the anti Christ was the Apostasy.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: And so what we're talking about here is a change
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: of belief. That's right, okay, But what's the controversy again,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: coming back to the president of the conversation, what's the
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: current controversy about this?
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: And the current controversy is whether, where we see the
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: falling away in the King James or rebellion or revolt
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: in some versions, should we move our thinking over in
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: the direction of a physical departure so that it would
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: be the rapture rather than the direction of a spiritual departure,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: so that it's apostacy or falling away. And then, of
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: course that would be exciting, wuldn't it, because now it says,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: don't worry, don't let any man deceive you, because the
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: day of the Lord's not coming unless the rapture happened
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: first and the man who sin be revealed. And the
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: first time I heard I thought, well, that actually has
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: a ring to it. I'd like that to be true.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: But the difficulty we face, and all of us that
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: are serious Bible students know this. Just because something sounds
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: good and we want it to be true, yes, doesn't
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: mean that it is true. I don't know how many times,
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: brother Gary, that I've jumped to some conclusions early in
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: my study and got excited about something that eventually had
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: petered out and I had to drop it. You've probably
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: had the same experience.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely tried to convince myself of something and ultimately
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: had to give it up. But again, the Bible is,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: shall we say, an advanced text. It's very deep and
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: you need to study it very very well before you
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: make your final statement.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Right, That's exactly right. So this controversy came to my
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: attention and I thought, well, I can't immediately offhand just
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: cavalierly reject the rapture understanding a departure. So I went
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: out and I got every piece of information or literature
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: I could get my hands on that taught it, books, masters, THESS,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: doctoral dissertation, anything i'd find on the subject, magazine articles,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: website articles, and I read through all of them, and
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: I consolidated all the arguments that would go in the
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: direction of this is a departure in the sense of
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: a rapture rather than departure in the sense of apostasy.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: And what I ended up concluding is that this can
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: only be a falling away, but no, are the falling
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: away at the end of the age. And what it
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: comes down to is this, I'm going to go in
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: two different directions here. First, I'm going to tell us
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: what is the apostasy, and then I'm going to talk
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: about the main arguments why it has to be the apostasy.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Okay and so okay. So with the apostasy, people say, well,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: it has to be a particular apostasy. It has to
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: be a very definite one that stands out absolutely. It
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: sure does. And what's going to happen that kicks off
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: the seventieth week with the Antichrist, Well, he's going to
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: force a treaty, according to Daniel nine twenty seven, on
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: the people in the nation of Israel. This is going
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: to force a covenant with many. Some most translations are
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: going to say make a firm covenant with many, or
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: enforce a covenant with many, something along that line. This
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: is a strong covenant forced on Israel. It's forced on Israel.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: And then we read in Isaiah chapter twenty eight that
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: against their better judgment, Israel enters into an agreement with are,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: a covenant with death and an agreement with shield. So
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: this is apostasy. They're doing this against their better judgment.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: They're thinking that they're going to protect themselves from the
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: great sorrows and trials that are coming their way from
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: the death that's coming their way, and all they do
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: is they increase their troubles that are coming.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: And elsewhere in scripture we find the man of sin
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: in the temple, that's right, declaring that he is God.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: That's exactly right.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: So that really fits what you're saying right now.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the apostasy starts when the nation and people make
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: a treaty with the Antichrist and they know he's of hell,
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: they know he is a bad man. And then it
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: comes to a head when they get double cross They
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: think they get the blessing of getting their temple, and
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: they say, well, we'll put up with the bad because
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: we get this good. That's a bad principle for Christianity,
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: that's a bad principle for Messianic Jews, that's a bad
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: principle for anybody. So but they get double crossed. They're
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: allowed to do the temple for three and a half years.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: The Antichrist comes in, he shuts down the temple in
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: the sacrifice, and he sits in the temple. He defiles
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: the temple, declares himself God, and installs an image that
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: needs to be worshiped on pain of death.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: All right back to verse three, where my King James
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: Bible says a falling away first, although I have a
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: pencil note next to it that says the yes, the
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: falling away first. Tell us again, for those who've been
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: listening and may have been just a little lost, what
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: does that mean? Yes, exactly, Okay, well, falling someone comes
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: to you and says, hey, don't let anybody see you.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: They have said that they won't come unless there is
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: some kind of an apostasy, And now what do they
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: really saying?
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, well, where Paul gives us, in fact, the Lord
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: gives us two tests to know that you are in
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: the day of the Lord. Okay, you have the apostasy
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: and you have the man of sin. So we know
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: from the scriptures that when the man of sin comes
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: to power, he is going to introduce the greatest darkness
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: the world has ever known, and he's going to bring
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: that darkness to the people in the nation of Israel.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: I often think about that passage in the Gospels where
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: you have the house cleansed, and then the fallen spirits
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: come back and they find the man. The house of
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: the man's all cleaned up, and then he gets entered
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: again by the the old devil with seven that are
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: worse than himself. And it says the last state is
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: going to be worse than the original state. You know,
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: when Israel came out of the Babylonian captivity, she has
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: been free from classic idolatry. Since then, she's had idolatry
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: of Mammon and idolatry of riches, but not classic idolatry.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: But when she comes into the tribulation, she is going
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: to cave into the spirit of idolatry. The majority of
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: the nation will worship the Antichrist. The majority of the
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: nation will worship the image of the beast, and that
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: will be idolatry seven times worse than Israel ever experienced
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: in Babylon.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Now this is chapter two of Second Thessalonians. We're talking about.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: Paul enters into writing. It's with a burden. You can
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: tell that he is burdened. He wants to make something clear, yes,
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: so that there will be no mistake. Now what does
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: he trying to make clear?
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: In your words, He's trying to encourage the believers in
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: all their hardships and all of their tribulations, all their trials.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: You are not in the end times judgment. You are
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: not in the end times, tribulation. You are not in
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: the end times day of the Lord. Doesn't matter what
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: label you put on it, you are not in that time.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: And how do you know you're not in that time?
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Do you see the Antichrist? Don't spiritualize him. Don't say
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: it's the Church of Rome, right, don't say it's the
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Roman government. No, there's a literal man who's gonna literally
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: sit in the literal Temple, in literal Jerusalem, in literal Israel,
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: in the literal last Days and declare himself God and
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: demand to be worshiped. If you don't see this man
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: bamboozling Israel, in bamboozling the world, then you're not in
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: the Day of the Lord.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: So I kind of wipe my forehead and say, ah,
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: that's a relief. Wow. Amen, Amen, I didn't miss the rapture.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: And I like to tell people we are going up,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: we are not going.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: Through, not going through the Amen. And Paul was obviously
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: emotional about the way that this is written. In other words,
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: it's not just dry scripture. This is an emotional plea.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: As I hear it, yep. He starts out by saying,
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: I beseech you yes, hey, listen up, there's something that's
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: really important here.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, he was concerned that the people lay hold of
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: the truth. You'd mentioned earlier today in conversation that chapter
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: four of First Thessalonians, verse eighteen talks about encourage one
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: another with these words. Yes, and that's exactly what Paul's
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: He's following his own counsel right here. He's encouraging the
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: Thessalonians with the truth of the pre trip rapture.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: And you know, as you say this, Lee, an image
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: is forming in my mind of today's world, looking at
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: the Middle East, looking at Russia, looking at the oil
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: situation with the Arab States, looking at China, looking at
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: everything of the economy, and I've got this little anxiety.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: And as a Christian, I'm saying, you know, the Lord's
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: going to come back and intercede at a certain point,
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: and I don't want to rush things, but Lord, how long?
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah that's right, and we all say that, yeah, oh yeah.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: I think every Christian who believes in the pre tribulational
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: rapture of the Church has those thoughts from time to time,
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: am I right?
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely? I mean personally, I would love the rapture
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: to happen today, if not today next week. I see
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: the stuff that's coming down. The pipeline is going to
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: be rolled out in twenty twenty four to twenty twenty five,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: and I think I do not want to see that stuff.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: But what's an interesting picture of the rapture? In John
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: chapter six, where the Lord goes up in the mountain
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: by himself, he's away from the disciples. The disciples cross
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: the Sea of Galilee, they get caught in an unusual storm,
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: a storm that would terrify the disciples when they're used
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: to being on the lake. And then the Lord comes
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: to them in the midst of the storm and they're
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: immediately at shore whither they went. I think this is
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: a picture of the rapture at the end of the age.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: The Lord's gone up in the high mountain. That's a
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: picture of being away in heaven. We're going through across
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: the Sea of Galilee. That's a picture of the Church
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: sailing through life at the at the end of this age,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: we're going to have a satanic storm of darkness blow
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: upon us. We're going to start wondering, Wow, I thought
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: the rapture would happen by now, and all of a sudden,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: the Lord is going to come to us in the
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: midst of the storm, and immediately we're going to be home.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: We are listening to, I think the wise words of
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: Lee Brainerd. You've written a book called Apostasia, all about
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: Tewod Thessalonians two three. Yes, and that's what we've been
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: looking at. Here's a whole book. And what can I
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: say except I just am very thankful if there are
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: people like you who will sit down and devote that
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: much thought to a single Bible verse.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: Yes, And maybe I should just take a few minutes
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: and talk a little bit about the book. And then
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: I said earlier that I would give a few main
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: arguments why I think we need to go with Apostasy.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: We got a few minutes left. Yes, So the concept
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: of the book here takes up every argument that's made
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: for departure in the sense of rapture for Apostasia, and
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: it answers them and shows that the arguments are often
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: information that's been misunderstood or that they didn't do it
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: deep enough and broad enough investigation. And so every argument
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: for the rapture interpretation I think in this book is
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: exploded by a deep and broad survey of the source
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: materials that are applicable. So I cover the grammar, I
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: cover the definite article, I cover the English Bibles, the
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: German Bibles, the Latin Bibles. I cover the use of
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: the coin a Greek, and I cover the use of
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: the early Church fathers. And I cover the Judaic literature
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: that preceded the authorship of Thessalonians.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: Wow. All I can say is may the Lord advance
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: your work, because this question is not going away, No,
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: it sure is. I think there's some emotion in this question. Yes,
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: And there might well be emotion because look at the
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: question that's being asks here, yes, and and will you
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: will you go through the through through the tribulation or not?
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: Yes? And I understand people being excited about the rapture.
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: And I'm so glad that this is a rapture passage,
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: even if that particular word is not a reference to
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: the rapture.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: It's a rapture question in couched in the things that
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: are bound to happen socially in society.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: Yes. Now, I just want to quickly run through a
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: couple points I think people would want to be interested
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: in on this controversy because a lot of people say, well, Look,
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: the word departure is in the early English versions. If
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: we see the word departure, this is a reference to
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: the rapture, right, yes, well, yeah, this sounds like a
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: good argument, and I don't I'm not offended that anyone
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: would consider that. But if they actually go to the
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: early English versions and they look at the footnotes and
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: the marginal notes, and they look at the introductory statements
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: for the books and for the chapters, what they're going
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: to discover is all the early English editors and translators
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: were using the phrase departure as a synonym for apostasy
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: and falling away. Once you understand that, then of course
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: this whole argument starts to come apart, and the same
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: investigation you can see for the use of the Latin,
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: for the use of the early German versions. It all
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: comes down to the same thing. And then I also
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: want to reiterate the point that the early Church fathers
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: never entertained the idea of physical departure. Here in verse
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: three for Apostaca, all the understanding they had was that
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: of rebellion, sedition, apostasy falling away.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: Well, I think you've made it pretty clear, and anyone
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: who's interested in going deeper should read Lee B. Renderd's book.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: It's called Apostasia in Second Thessalonians two three. What else
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: can I say except that this conversation is going to
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: go on.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Right, That's absolutely right. In the book. You can find
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: the book on my website, soothkeep dot info. You can
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: find the book on Amazon, and you can find the
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: book in the Prophecy Watchers bookstore.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: You certainly can't. It's been most interesting. I am glad
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: I sat down and had this conversation with you because
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: it's exciting.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, and I don't say this to many people here, Gary,
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: but this was more fun than a good cup of coffee.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: Indeed, Lee Brainerd, I'm Gary Steerman and this is Prophecy Watchers.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: We'll see you soon.