Latest / Foul Territory / Katie Woo on Cardinals front office changes + Tony Vitello’s first words as new Giants manager

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Katie Woo on Cardinals front office changes + Tony Vitello’s first words as new Giants manager · Foul Territory

0:03
Speaker 1: Oh, outside with the wind holding the phone. This is
0:06
Speaker 1: it from the Athletics joining us right now.
0:10
Speaker 2: Katie.
0:10
Speaker 1: Great to see you, and I know you're covering the
0:13
Speaker 1: World Series, but we're going to start with the Saint
0:15
Speaker 1: Louis Cardinals. Yes, hair is flowing right now, So Katie,
0:20
Speaker 1: let's start with the changes that you wrote about the
0:23
Speaker 1: other day that are going on and how they could
0:25
Speaker 1: be a good thing for a team that was scaling
0:27
Speaker 1: back in some departments in the past.
0:29
Speaker 3: Right.
0:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is some real on side reporting.
0:32
Speaker 3: Guys, bear with me from the not so sunny conditions
0:36
Speaker 3: in Toronto.
0:36
Speaker 2: But let's talk about a little Saint Louis Cardinals. Why not?
0:39
Speaker 2: Ahead of Game six of the World Series.
0:42
Speaker 3: For those of you who just following along, it's been
0:43
Speaker 3: a quiet first month for Saint Louis, but behind the scenes,
0:46
Speaker 3: newly minted President of Baseball Operations High Bloom has been
0:49
Speaker 3: working to bolster the front office staff from a player
0:53
Speaker 3: development and scouting perspective. And we know this is going
0:56
Speaker 3: to be important because the Cardinals went out and said
0:58
Speaker 3: at the end of the season that they're going to
1:00
Speaker 3: be looking to do kind of a moderate rebuild. And
1:02
Speaker 3: when I say rebuild, I want a caution, this is
1:04
Speaker 3: not going to be a full tank and tear down
1:06
Speaker 3: in Saint Louis.
1:07
Speaker 2: It doesn't need to be.
1:08
Speaker 3: But it's more revamping the behind the scenes support staff
1:12
Speaker 3: because from Cardinals ownership down to the Cardinals coaching staff,
1:15
Speaker 3: that consensus is the same for Saint Louis to get
1:17
Speaker 3: back to where it needs to be a top the
1:18
Speaker 3: NL Central and needs to go.
1:20
Speaker 2: Back to being a draft and development club. Well, how
1:22
Speaker 2: do you do that?
1:23
Speaker 3: You continue adding support staff, You go when you expand
1:25
Speaker 3: your player acquisition process, you make some changes to pro scouting,
1:28
Speaker 3: to international scouting. All these changes aren't the additions rather
1:32
Speaker 3: than subtractions.
1:33
Speaker 2: The goal is not cut positions here in Saint Louis.
1:36
Speaker 3: It's to add staff, and we're seeing some of those
1:38
Speaker 3: changes start to take place all right.
1:40
Speaker 4: From my inside man in the Cardinals, I have to ask,
1:45
Speaker 4: how the heck did they get to this spot? Was
1:47
Speaker 4: this a cutback or from what I heard, they just
1:52
Speaker 4: had like a skeleton crew essentially based on what else
1:56
Speaker 4: is going on in Minor League Baseball crossed the other
2:00
Speaker 4: twenty nine teams. So was it just MO and ownership
2:04
Speaker 4: not keeping up with the times. Was it complacency with success.
2:09
Speaker 2: What was it? I think it was a little bit
2:12
Speaker 2: of both.
2:12
Speaker 3: Right, when you're the Cardinals and you're winning consistently as
2:15
Speaker 3: they were over the past six seven years up till
2:18
Speaker 3: twenty twenty three, you can kind of get away with
2:20
Speaker 3: cutting corners, and that's what the Cardinals did with their
2:22
Speaker 3: player development staff. Skeleton is a great way for me
2:26
Speaker 3: to describe how those staff that staffing process looked up
2:29
Speaker 3: until the start of this season.
2:31
Speaker 2: The Cardinals just continued to cut coordinators.
2:33
Speaker 3: And it really wasn't fair to the staff that was
2:35
Speaker 3: still in the player development department because they were just
2:39
Speaker 3: asked to do so many things. For comparison, the Cardinals
2:42
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty three had five full time coordinators. In
2:45
Speaker 3: the minor leagues, teams like the Brewers, the Dodgers, the
2:47
Speaker 3: Mets they have about fifteen. So they were really cut
2:50
Speaker 3: very slim in the player development department, and at a
2:52
Speaker 3: time where free agency contracts and trades come with monumental value.
2:57
Speaker 2: If you're a mid market team.
2:58
Speaker 3: Like the Saint Louis Cardinals, you have to be able
3:01
Speaker 3: to draft and develop, and Saint Louis really got away
3:03
Speaker 3: from the second part of that.
3:04
Speaker 2: The player development was very far behind the scenes.
3:06
Speaker 3: It's Wyhein Bloom was brought in as an advisor in
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Speaker 3: the first place, and ultimately getting his track record to
3:11
Speaker 3: Tampa Bay his track record in Boston why the WIT
3:14
Speaker 3: ownership tied him to be the next president of Baseball Operations.
3:17
Speaker 3: We're going to see the same kind of revamping, if
3:20
Speaker 3: you will, that the Cardinals did of their player development
3:22
Speaker 3: with their scouting. The thing here to remember with the
3:25
Speaker 3: scouting is not that they were bearing. I don't think
3:27
Speaker 3: the scouting was a problem. They just want to add
3:29
Speaker 3: more and this is good when you're the Cardinals and
3:31
Speaker 3: you're going to try to rebuild your organization from within.
3:34
Speaker 2: The more staff members you have, the more scouting.
3:36
Speaker 3: Directors, the more player development directors you have, the better
3:39
Speaker 3: chances you are of being able to develop that talent.
3:41
Speaker 2: And that's going to be the goal in twenty twenty six.
3:43
Speaker 5: Player development is fantastic. I think that's awesome, But there's
3:47
Speaker 5: also an emphasis on player acquisition this winner. Can you
3:50
Speaker 5: talk a little bit about where and what positions they're
3:53
Speaker 5: kind of looking for here As.
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Speaker 3: You move forward, it's going to be more about pro
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Speaker 3: scouting and international scouting. Assistant General manager Scouting director Randy Flores,
4:02
Speaker 3: his job will remain mostly unchanged.
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Speaker 2: The goal is to just get him more support.
4:06
Speaker 3: Like we talked about, the more positions you have, the
4:08
Speaker 3: more people you have on site, the better your overall
4:10
Speaker 3: program can be. So the Cardinals are going to go
4:12
Speaker 3: back to having a more firm emphasis in scouting in
4:15
Speaker 3: Latin America, and our assistant general manager voices Rodriguez, this
4:18
Speaker 3: is not something that they've lacked on.
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Speaker 2: They just want to add more people, more eyes.
4:22
Speaker 3: When we talked to Heim Bloom in his introductory press
4:25
Speaker 3: conference at the end of September, you're seeing a lot
4:27
Speaker 3: of organizations kind of shipped away from pro scouting in
4:30
Speaker 3: general and lieu of models programming all the analytics, right,
4:34
Speaker 3: But the.
4:35
Speaker 2: Cardinals decided to retain all seven.
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Speaker 3: Of their pro scouts and him has said that he
4:38
Speaker 3: would like to ultimately combine both the analytics and the
4:42
Speaker 3: actual on site evaluators in a way to hopefully get
4:45
Speaker 3: the Cardinals in edge back and scouting at the domestic
4:47
Speaker 3: level and at the international level. There doesn't seem to
4:50
Speaker 3: be too big of a concern with amateur scouting. The
4:52
Speaker 3: Cardinals have done really well in terms of the MLB draft,
4:54
Speaker 3: and they also have been aided by two top ten
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Speaker 3: picks in the last two years. So now the goal
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Speaker 3: is to approve the acquisition process from the major league
5:00
Speaker 3: level in pro scouting and go back to being a
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Speaker 3: force in Latin America, especially as you see you guys,
5:05
Speaker 3: most of these teams playing in October have a strong
5:07
Speaker 3: Latin American presence in terms of scouting.
5:10
Speaker 4: All right, I have obviously some mo questions, but I
5:12
Speaker 4: got a first ask. You're talking about players. Forty two
5:15
Speaker 4: million dollars left on Aeronauto's contract. The biggest conversation from
5:20
Speaker 4: last offseason gets rebooted for Katie wou for this offseason.
5:25
Speaker 4: Does he get traded before December?
5:31
Speaker 2: Yeah?
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Speaker 3: I'm thinking about just republishing all of my stories from
5:34
Speaker 3: last trade deadline and just changing the date because it's
5:36
Speaker 3: going to be pretty much the exact same storyline.
5:39
Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I do think the Cardinals will trade
5:42
Speaker 2: Nolan Arnatto this offseason, and I know I said that
5:44
Speaker 2: last year and it didn't happen. But this is different.
5:47
Speaker 3: Because so many different things are at stake here. One
5:49
Speaker 3: Arnaut himself is more open to different landing points. Last year,
5:52
Speaker 3: remember he had just five teams that he would be
5:55
Speaker 3: open to waiving his no trade class for it did
5:57
Speaker 3: not mean that he would say it for sure as
5:59
Speaker 3: the experience and also Cardinals ownership is going to spend
6:02
Speaker 3: a lot or a significant more money and eat more
6:04
Speaker 3: money in that trade, So two things helping the Cardinals
6:07
Speaker 3: and Ronado in that favor there. I don't think it
6:09
Speaker 3: happens before December, though, because what's the rush. The Cardinals
6:12
Speaker 3: have all off season to kind of look and find
6:14
Speaker 3: a suitor. And it's going to be complicated because, like
6:17
Speaker 3: you mentioned, forty two million dollars left on that deal,
6:18
Speaker 3: a full note trade clause, and teams have to be
6:21
Speaker 3: able to find what I believe to still be an
6:23
Speaker 3: elite third baseman. But there has been some obvious signs
6:25
Speaker 3: of decline offensively. He spent most most of the second
6:28
Speaker 3: half hurt, so there are going to be some performance
6:30
Speaker 3: concerns there. Do I think the Cardinals can find a
6:32
Speaker 3: match for Arnado, Absolutely. Do I think it's going to
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Speaker 3: be one of the first trades they make. Probably not,
6:37
Speaker 3: But I would be very surprised, at the risk of
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Speaker 3: repeating myself, very very surprised if he was back with
6:42
Speaker 3: the Cardinals comes from training in twenty six.
6:45
Speaker 4: Wow, we're in a time machine, Katie Wu dressed up
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Speaker 4: as a time machine. We just went back to December
6:50
Speaker 4: twenty twenty fourth. Thank you for reporting to us, Katie Wu.
6:53
Speaker 4: My question is five years from now, your time machine
6:58
Speaker 4: goes five years ahead? Is Jamozlak a Hall of Fame GM?
7:04
Speaker 4: And have Cardinals fans gotten away from the recency bias
7:09
Speaker 4: and actually looked at his entire tenure for what this
7:12
Speaker 4: man has done for Cardinals baseball?
7:15
Speaker 2: I would hope. So.
7:16
Speaker 3: I understand the Mo fatigue, and I'm sure Cardinals fans
7:19
Speaker 3: that's probably the last name they want to hear right now.
7:21
Speaker 3: I do think there is some genuine excitement over him blue,
7:23
Speaker 3: even if the fan base maybe not doesn't necessarily understand
7:26
Speaker 3: fully what this reval process is going.
7:28
Speaker 2: To look like just yet.
7:29
Speaker 3: But it will all come down to, I think, how
7:31
Speaker 3: the Cardinals do over the last five years, which is
7:33
Speaker 3: ultimately not fair to Mow because he will be a
7:35
Speaker 3: part of it. But when you look at his overall
7:37
Speaker 3: tenure for the Saint Louis Cardinals and what he accomplished,
7:39
Speaker 3: not just as an executive in Saint Louis, but as
7:41
Speaker 3: an executive in baseball that I think is a it's
7:45
Speaker 3: at least a Cardinal Red jacket worthy career, and he's
7:48
Speaker 3: done so much for this organization. It's hard to see
7:51
Speaker 3: that right now, given where the current state of the
7:52
Speaker 3: Cardinals stand. But five years from now, I do think
7:55
Speaker 3: that the recency bias maybe will be a little more
7:58
Speaker 3: tempered and we can overall, we can look at his
7:59
Speaker 3: ten overall and say, you know what, that's a pretty
8:01
Speaker 3: good run he had here in Saint Louis.
8:04
Speaker 4: Katie, I set you up, though. Sorry, I am grew
8:07
Speaker 4: and I definitely am very sneaky with my questions. In
8:12
Speaker 4: five years, is John Mozelack actually a GM for another team?
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Speaker 2: Ooh, you know, I don't. I don't know.
8:22
Speaker 3: I think there's he's always going to be a part
8:24
Speaker 3: of Major League Baseball. I think he's gonna take this
8:25
Speaker 3: well deserved er off. But some guys are baseball lifers,
8:28
Speaker 3: and most trucks me as one of those guys. And
8:31
Speaker 3: he hasn't necessarily said that he would not entertain another
8:34
Speaker 3: job in baseball. I think he'd actually be a really
8:36
Speaker 3: good fit working for the league or in the commissioner's opposite.
8:38
Speaker 3: That's something that he'd like to do, whether it's overseen
8:41
Speaker 3: in another baseball organization. I find that hard to see
8:44
Speaker 3: right now, but hey, sometimes you have to be away
8:46
Speaker 3: from something long enough to really start to miss it.
8:48
Speaker 3: My inclination tells me now. But I do think we'll
8:51
Speaker 3: see him back in baseball in the next five year.
8:54
Speaker 5: You're in Toronto switching gears here a little bit. Do
8:57
Speaker 5: you see these Blue Jays team closed in the door?
9:00
Speaker 5: Did the Dodgers come away with Game six er or
9:02
Speaker 5: Yamamoto on the mound?
9:04
Speaker 3: I think the Dodgers saving grace is that Yamamoto is
9:06
Speaker 3: on the mound right now. When you look at that
9:07
Speaker 3: Dodgers offense, I think when you've been looking at Los
9:10
Speaker 3: Angeles maybe it's like just a casual fan, you'd be
9:13
Speaker 3: surprised to see.
9:14
Speaker 2: This offense the way there it is.
9:15
Speaker 3: But this is something that the Dodgers offensive struggled with
9:17
Speaker 3: throughout the season going into.
9:18
Speaker 2: These really just dismal lack of production here.
9:23
Speaker 3: Yamamoto, though, is the guy that you want to start
9:25
Speaker 3: if you're the Dodgers tonight because.
9:26
Speaker 2: He has been.
9:33
Speaker 4: Did our Canadian internet.
9:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think the Dodgers will, uh, we'll
9:41
Speaker 3: pull this one out.
9:42
Speaker 2: But that offense, that's a that's a big concern.
9:44
Speaker 3: Guys.
9:47
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, we got a little we got a
9:49
Speaker 4: little bit of a bump on the Canadian internet. There
9:52
Speaker 4: you're outside internet at the Lulu Bar. Hurt us a
9:55
Speaker 4: little bit. One more, one more world serious question for me,
9:59
Speaker 4: is there a scenario where this game tonight doesn't end
10:07
Speaker 4: in a walk off for the Blue Jays? Do you
10:08
Speaker 4: think the Blue Jays come out and play this as like,
10:12
Speaker 4: oh yeah, we can just we can get to Yamamoto,
10:15
Speaker 4: we can like to me and we've talked about and
10:17
Speaker 4: you've mentioned it. Yamamoto has been dominant and he has
10:22
Speaker 4: he is gonna be the Dodgers saving grace. Is there
10:25
Speaker 4: a scenario where the Blue Jays cake walk to a
10:28
Speaker 4: World Series here tonight?
10:31
Speaker 3: You know, I didn't think Blake Snell threw poorly in
10:34
Speaker 3: Game five, but they ambushed him pretty quickly off the start.
10:37
Speaker 3: I don't see them doing that with Yamamoto, just because
10:40
Speaker 3: of what he looked like his last two appearances.
10:42
Speaker 2: But this Blue Jays team.
10:43
Speaker 3: As someone who didn't really watch a lot of American
10:45
Speaker 3: le ball this year up until the postseason, they have
10:48
Speaker 3: really surprised just how relentless, resilient, and they have all
10:52
Speaker 3: the energy and all the momentum here.
10:53
Speaker 2: So it'd be tough because all Yamamoto has done at this.
10:56
Speaker 3: Point in his career again, whether it's Statesha or in Japan,
10:58
Speaker 3: is delivering big moments like this.
11:00
Speaker 2: But this, this Blue jay Is team has.
11:01
Speaker 3: Shown already they should be absolutely taken seriously. They have power,
11:06
Speaker 3: they have ways to get on base. They when they
11:09
Speaker 3: get hot, they're hot. And this is exactly where they
11:10
Speaker 3: are right now. So I've said this to a compelling game.
11:13
Speaker 3: They had been pretty much from the start. But I
11:16
Speaker 3: still think it goes seven guys, and I think the
11:18
Speaker 3: Blue Jays win it in seven.
11:20
Speaker 4: Katie, thank you for all your coverage of the Cardinals
11:24
Speaker 4: this year, but now you're coverage of the World Series.
11:27
Speaker 4: If you were to dress up as somebody for Halloween,
11:30
Speaker 4: who would it be?
11:32
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know, something warm because I'm freezing out here.
11:37
Speaker 2: I don't know.
11:38
Speaker 3: If I would have known this with a Halloween episode,
11:39
Speaker 3: I would have fowned something on.
11:40
Speaker 2: So give me a heads up next time, you guys.
11:43
Speaker 4: Okay, next time, next time on Halloween, we will give
11:46
Speaker 4: you a heads up. But we appreciate you braving the
11:48
Speaker 4: cold outside in Canada, and good luck and join the
11:51
Speaker 4: World Series.
11:53
Speaker 2: Thanks guys, we'll talk soon.
11:56
Speaker 1: The old card experience was a slow burn, long grind. Right,
12:03
Speaker 1: find the box, find the pack you want, open the pack.
12:07
Speaker 1: Most of the cards?
12:09
Speaker 3: Nah?
12:10
Speaker 1: Right, you got one that's worth something, Now send it
12:13
Speaker 1: in for grading. I mean, the list goes on and
12:16
Speaker 1: you want to sell it now, you got to put
12:18
Speaker 1: it up. Then you got to ship it out. There's
12:19
Speaker 1: one solution for that, and.
12:21
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12:24
Speaker 5: of a dime. You get on your computer, you type
12:26
Speaker 5: in get the Arena Club app. Go on there, type in,
12:30
Speaker 5: put some money in and type in exactly what kind
12:32
Speaker 5: of cards you want and while la. It's a great experience,
12:35
Speaker 5: and I think that's what people miss nowadays, the experience,
12:38
Speaker 5: the excitement of getting a new card. You never know
12:40
Speaker 5: what you're gonna get, an autograph card, anything you could
12:43
Speaker 5: think of, really cool stuff.
12:44
Speaker 1: You can get twenty percent off your first slab pack
12:47
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12:50
Speaker 1: what gets Todd father so excited when he gets that
12:53
Speaker 1: digital slab pack. It's like butter Baby.
12:58
Speaker 3: Todd.
12:59
Speaker 4: Tony, this is the manager of the San Francisco Giants.
13:03
Speaker 4: I don't think we've had you on since he was
13:05
Speaker 4: announced as the hiring. I think it was a first
13:09
Speaker 4: of all, what is your opinion of bringing on a
13:13
Speaker 4: big league manager as or a college college head coach?
13:17
Speaker 4: I was mixed up head coach and manager. To be
13:21
Speaker 4: a big league manager, I think.
13:24
Speaker 2: It's pretty cool.
13:24
Speaker 5: I gotta be honest with you. He's paving away for
13:26
Speaker 5: some of these college coaches to undoubtedly get a job
13:30
Speaker 5: in the major leagues. Now, this is going to be
13:32
Speaker 5: a huge step for these guys to get this opportunity.
13:36
Speaker 5: Tony's the guy like this is the stepping stone here.
13:39
Speaker 5: If this doesn't pay off, then we don't know what's
13:41
Speaker 5: gonna happen next with college coaches. I mean it's unheard of.
13:44
Speaker 5: You don't see this very often, if not before. The
13:47
Speaker 5: guy talks about vision, and I think people hear that
13:51
Speaker 5: word vision. Oh, everybody has a dream of vision. But
13:54
Speaker 5: when you have a vision and goal and aspirations not
13:57
Speaker 5: only be a manager, but to be a really good man.
14:00
Speaker 5: We've seen his track record, it's pretty dark good. We've
14:03
Speaker 5: seen his energy. He's gonna bring it every day. And
14:05
Speaker 5: I'm one of those guys that used to talk all
14:07
Speaker 5: the time. Cratty and the Doug you know me, we
14:09
Speaker 5: played together there. I always kept telling myself three hours
14:13
Speaker 5: of havoc RecA it, you know, talk bring energy to
14:16
Speaker 5: the boys. And I think this is what's gonna happen.
14:18
Speaker 5: There's gonna be a couple of innings where they're not
14:20
Speaker 5: doing well. He's gonna go to the guys, let's go
14:22
Speaker 5: pick it up. Some guys might take that the wrong way,
14:25
Speaker 5: just because they're pros pros, but guess what some teams
14:28
Speaker 5: need that they need a kick in the button, a boost.
14:30
Speaker 5: And I am, you know, seeing some of the quotes here,
14:32
Speaker 5: I was like, you know, in this one, Vytla, you
14:35
Speaker 5: may get the opportunities, but I don't know if you'll
14:36
Speaker 5: have a boss like Buster Posey. I thought that was
14:38
Speaker 5: pretty cool. First year guy in Buster Posey, I played
14:41
Speaker 5: with him. How exciting of a guy he is too.
14:45
Speaker 5: He talks about vision, he's a winner. He's a winner,
14:47
Speaker 5: and I honestly can't wait to see if he changes
14:50
Speaker 5: his coaching techniques as he moves forward, you know, during
14:53
Speaker 5: spring training coming up next year.
14:55
Speaker 4: The beauty of a big league season is one hundred
14:57
Speaker 4: and sixty two games he play. I think they had
15:03
Speaker 4: seventy three games the year they won a National championship,
15:06
Speaker 4: including regular season in postseason, but I could be wrong.
15:09
Speaker 4: I thought that's what it said. They're gonna know if
15:12
Speaker 4: this press conference where he said all the right words
15:15
Speaker 4: he said, you know, I was dissecting and consuming a
15:21
Speaker 4: lot of ideas and the words that came to me,
15:24
Speaker 4: like all that stuff is gonna get washed away. All
15:27
Speaker 4: I've heard about Tony Vittello is what a great guy
15:30
Speaker 4: he is, and that's from ex players, that's from other coaches,
15:35
Speaker 4: But nobody really likes competing against him, which is a
15:39
Speaker 4: positive thing. But one hundred and sixty two games plus
15:42
Speaker 4: six weeks of spring training, you're gonna know what this
15:46
Speaker 4: person really is. I think that's where some managers that
15:49
Speaker 4: have been managers recently and fallen off and really haven't
15:54
Speaker 4: re emerged as managers, they kind of put this front
15:57
Speaker 4: out there. So if I were to give in advice
16:00
Speaker 4: to Tony Vittello and tell him what the big leagues
16:04
Speaker 4: is like, the big leagues is like a grind. The
16:08
Speaker 4: big leagues is like a relationship, with your wife, with
16:12
Speaker 4: you know, somebody that you're committed to, because at the
16:16
Speaker 4: end of one hundred and sixty two games, you want
16:18
Speaker 4: to make the playoffs. You want to get the most
16:20
Speaker 4: out of every one of your players. He's not going
16:21
Speaker 4: to take a single at bat. He's going to have
16:24
Speaker 4: to believe in the stuff that he's telling them, and
16:27
Speaker 4: he's going to have to have hard conversations with guys.
16:30
Speaker 4: To me, I think it's one of those things that
16:34
Speaker 4: he has no big lead experience, but he has a
16:36
Speaker 4: lot of people experience and a lot of baseball experience.
16:39
Speaker 4: So my hope is that the two words that he
16:41
Speaker 4: came up with from his press conference, risk and challenge.
16:45
Speaker 4: He's willing to risk, you know, being humbled in situations,
16:49
Speaker 4: but he also needs to challenge people. So I think
16:51
Speaker 4: it's something that I like the press conference. I thought
16:56
Speaker 4: he seemed very genuine and ultimately he could really suck.
17:00
Speaker 4: But if Buster Posey picked him.
17:03
Speaker 5: I'm on board with yeah, and I totally agree. Only
17:07
Speaker 5: time will tell.