Latest / Come Together with Ephraim Herschmann / Music Series 3: Scott B Bomar / Music Historian / Southern Rock & Soul / Black Influence on Music

Transcript

Music Series 3: Scott B Bomar / Music Historian / Southern Rock & Soul / Black Influence on Music · Come Together with Ephraim Herschmann

• 0:01
  Welcome to another episode. Come together
• 0:15
  and we're live another episode. Scott, welcome.
• 0:17
  I'm so happy to have you here. Yeah, thanks.
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  Happy to be here. So I, I came across your website
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  and your content, all your, all your awesome work.
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  After I was looking for similar guests to Dennis McNally, who I
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  was so happy to hear from the author of the Grateful Dead, you
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  know, the definitive Grateful Dead biography.
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  And you know, I, I, not only do I love music, I love learning
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  about it and diving down rabbit holes and going into deep dives.
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  And I saw the books, not only just the books that you wrote,
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  the amount of books, but also the diversity of of topics and
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  genres that you kind of dive into.
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  I knew I wanted to introduce myself and see if we can make
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  something happen. So thank you.
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  Yeah, for sure. So you write about everything
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  music, and it seems to be are you, have you always been a
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  musician with did you always have some kind of affinity or
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  passion for the storytelling of the history or how'd that
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  happen? Yeah, I I've always been drawn
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  to music. My father was in the music
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  business, and though I've lived in Los Angeles now for more than
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  25 years, I grew up in Nashville and, you know, also known as
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  Music City USA. And my dad being in the music
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  industry obviously exposed me to a lot of music from the time I
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  was young. And, you know, I think we when
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  we're kids, we just kind of get interested in what our parents
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  are interested in because that's the sort of scope of our world.
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  And so I got interested in in some of the music.
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  My dad was a songwriter before he got into the business side of
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  music. And so I got kind of interested
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  in like some country artists that he was writing for, like
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  Loretta Lynn and Conway Twitty. And I remember even like as a
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  six year old, I made a cassette tape of me talking to Conway
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  Twitty, which I mailed to his, you know, fan club or whatever.
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  Like, you know, I was just interested in that because my my
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  dad was, you know, but then as I got older, I really as I think a
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  lot of kids in Nashville, I gravitated away from country
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  music because, you know, it's sort of like, then you get into
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  the phase where you sort of kick against, you know, whatever your
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  parents are into. But then I started getting into
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  like classic rock and stuff and like Jimi Hendrix and The
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  Beatles and The Rolling Stones. And I start looking through my
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  dad's record collection and he's got all that stuff too.
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  So he kind of turned me on to a lot of like classic rock.
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  And, you know, I got into all kinds of music from from there
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  and then kind of came back around to country as well, you
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  know, as an adult. But basically, I think the seed
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  of it is just that my dad kind of modelled a love for music.
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  And when I was a kid, he would like quiz me when stuff would
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  come on the radio, he'd beg, who's this artist who, you know,
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  who wrote this song, who played bass, you know, on this song.
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  So I probably just couldn't help but but but pursue it because I
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  I always not only loved like the Sound of Music and the way that
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  music moves you, but I was also fascinated by like the trivia.
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  And I think a lot of, you know, the way a lot of maybe fathers
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  and sons would trade like sports statistics.
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  My dad and I were trading music statistics.
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  So yeah, I think it's just it was bound to, it was bound to
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  be. That's super cool.
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  I love that. I love that I have a lot.
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  I think I, I was talking to, I was on someone's show the other
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  day and you know, they're asking me about, you know, as far as
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  me, they're asking another question in terms of my, I, I
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  have a three-year old and a six month old and, and they're
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  asking me about, you know, what if they like XY and Z's
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  particular lifestyle that you're pursuing or not, and how would
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  you feel? And I was like, you know what,
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  maybe they'll do it, maybe they won't.
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  But like when you're like enthusiastic and passionate,
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  like your kids, that you can't fake that to your kids.
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  And it's, it's magnetic to them. It's, you know, it's
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  electrifying. And I mean, that's, that's my,
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  my, my dad loves music and he never had any kind of
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  professional, you know, relationship to it, obviously.
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  But he, you know, I grew up. I, I have, so I have so strongly
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  associated, you know, like James Taylor and Cowell King while
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  we're driving, you know, pick me up from camp or, you know, or
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  Billy Joel at the garden, you know, when I was 5 or 6 years
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  old and, and you know, and learn and learning.
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  And then, like you said, playing trivia in the car with, you
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  know, my dad would put on bat out of hell, you know, while he
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  was driving to Manhattan and, and I'd have to be like, Oh,
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  there's meatloaf, right. And you know, and I have to.
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  And I learned from him. Yeah, it's funny, my I host this
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  podcast called Song Craft and my Co host Paul has two young
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  daughters that are like 11:00 and 7:00 or somewhere, somewhere
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  in there. And they're obsessed with like
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  Kiss and there you go. And like everything that he kind
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  of grew up on because he is completely exposed them to that.
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  And he's like, on the one hand, I'm thrilled to see that my kids
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  are excited about this music, but I'm also ruining them
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  because they're gonna have nothing in common with their
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  peers. Yeah, it's actually funny that
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  you say that. I've been because I I, I teach
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  high school English part time and I already have a quote UN
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  quote old enough soul, you know, to, you know, for my own
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  contemporaries. But you know, my students, it's
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  funny. I'm like, I showed them the
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  blind side last year and they're like, I never heard of this
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  movie. Oh, you did it come out.
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  I'm like 2008. They're like we were born 2008.
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  I'm like, Oh my God, are you kidding me?
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  You know, but, but I've been, but I was, you know, so I'm
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  trying to expose them to some Dylan, some Springsteen, some
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  some of the Dead, some, you know, some good music and try to
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  pay attention to the lyrics because I teach English class.
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  And I think the biggest pushback that I have with them is that
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  it's not familiar to their ear, you know, and it's like, and
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  once they kind of like get a little more familiar and once it
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  doesn't become such a foreign sound to them, they notice a lot
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  more detail, you know, as, as they're more exposed to it, you
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  know, And so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it too.
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  Yeah, Yeah. No, I think so.
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  And, and I think that, you know, we've lost this kind of
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  monoculture that I grew up in where there was, you know, 3 to
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  5 television channels and that was it.
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  And there was, you know, like a handful of radio stations and
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  everybody kind of experienced the same pop culture.
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  And that has been like splintered so much to where kids
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  they they don't identify, you know, I think with some of the
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  experiences that we had. But I do believe that the cream
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  rises to the top and and music, you know, when I was a teenager,
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  I was listening to, you know, The Beatles, who broke up long
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  before I was born. And, you know, I I gravitated
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  toward music that was from a prior era in addition to music
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  from my own era. And so, you know, I think on the
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  one hand, we can sort of lament the change that has happened,
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  but on the other hand, music is more accessible than other than
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  ever. So, you know, when you talk
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  about Springsteen or Dylan or whatever, these kids actually
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  have a way to go access that immediately and hopefully
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  experience it and discover it. You know, whereas when I was a
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  kid, if somebody said something was good, I had to go spend
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  $15.00 for ACD to find out, you know, and you know, so I do, I
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  do think there's an upside to like, as long as people are
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  exposing them to this stuff or, or championing it, then they can
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  actually go experience it. And because the cream rises to
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  the top, I think the good stuff will endure.
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  So it, I think it's going to be harder for people to, you know,
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  be exposed to things than, than it used to be.
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  But at least when they are, they've got a treasure trove to
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  dig into, you know. Oh.
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  Yeah. Oh yeah.
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  I mean, it's so funny you put it like that, because I, when I, I,
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  I tend, the way that I consume music is I tend to get very
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  invested in an artist and learn, you know, all their, all their
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  songs. I love listening to, you know,
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  albums all the way through and, you know, they're becoming
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  familiar. And then what'll usually happen
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  is they'll cover a song. I'll see on the credits that
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  it's a cover and I'll kind of check out who that, you know,
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  that original song and where that kind of goes.
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  And that, and a, that's been such a fun way to learn about,
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  you know, more music and new music.
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  But B, like you said, like, you know, I, I'm listening to
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  Springsteen, I get to check out, I could tell you if you showed
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  me a set list, I'll tell you what year that concert was.
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  You know, like I, I, I, at this point, I was able to do these
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  deep dives and the same thing and similar with Dylan probably,
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  and similar with a lot of other, you know, artists that I've,
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  that I've really spent a lot of time on.
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  It's, it's really cool to have this archive.
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  I think the, I think that the dead and Springsteen and Dylan
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  and I mean, I don't know who was really recording so much as much
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  as they were, you know, at the time.
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  But that like, that allowed people to kind of live
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  vicariously through the through the eyes of these real fans and
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  real junkies and, you know, really and really get to
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  participate in it. Yeah, well, good luck listening
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  to everything the Grateful Dead ever put on the rest of your
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  life. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  And all the subsequent bands and all the subsequent music, you
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  know. Yeah, definitely.
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  What do you, what do you think about the state of music today?
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  What is, what's some music that's kind of catching your eye
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  and drawing your in, drawing your attention now?
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  Man, I got to say, I was literally having a conversation
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  with someone yesterday and I said if if someone asks me what
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  kind of music do you like, I think the best answer I can give
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  is 20th century music. OK.
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  In that, you know, it was the music of the 60s, seventies,
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  80s, nineties. I mean, I'm a I'm a child of the
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  grand Jera, you know? Sure.
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  And so, yeah, I mean, that is the stuff that really like I
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  connected with. And so, you know, if you ask me
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  like who I like, that's current. Like it tends to be people that
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  are rooted in kind of some of that aesthetic of the past.
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  So like Bruno Mars or Nathaniel Raelif or Lake Street Dive.
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  I really like Brandi Carlile a lot, but these are all artists
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  that in some ways are very much kind of share those same roots
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  of, you know, 20th century music.
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  So I'm kind of the worst about staying up on like, what's the,
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  I'm a, I'm a Grammy voter and I've submitted my votes last
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  night and in the category of best new artist, I literally had
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  to go to Spotify and pull up each of the artists in the
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  running and spend some time listening because I didn't, I
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  literally was not familiar with a single one of them by name.
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  So I'm, it's probably fitting that I'm a music historian.
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  I kind of live in the past. Yeah, yeah.
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  You know, I feel, I feel a very similar way, but I'm, but I've
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  been, but it's exciting to see what new people are doing with
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  these older genres, you know? Yeah.
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  And I mean, I, I think that I've been, I've been right now I'm in
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  the middle of a Billy Strings deep dive, you know, and, and
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  I'm really, really fascinated because it's one of the things
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  that I, that I enjoy so much is that listening to any of his
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  given shows is a music class in and of itself.
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  And that, you know, I'm getting connected to old country or
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  Western tunes that I never have, you know, like a whole world
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  I've never been a part of before.
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  So like this. So, so he's kind of like a segue
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  into the past, but he's like firmly now, which is cool, you
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  know, and, and, and it's use of, of electric in the middle of
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  his, of his jams, I think has been really, really fascinating,
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  you know, to, you know, just. Yeah, comes to, I mean, he's
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  incredibly talented. You got guys like Jesse Wells
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  kind of coming out of. Yeah.
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  What's his story? He's so cool.
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  Yeah, I mean, just like he's almost like Bob Dylan and in
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  that it's like the faucet is just on and songs are just
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  flowing out of him and he like can't turn it off, you know?
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  Yeah, which I think is super interesting.
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  So I think he's, you know, he's interesting.
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  So yeah, I mean, I'm a grumpy, you know, grumpy fan of music of
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  the past. But at the same time, I see
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  these people emerging that, you know, are, are incredibly
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  talented. So, you know, it's, it's
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  encouraging. It's fun.
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  It's definitely a lot of fun for me.
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  Can you you want to tell me a little bit about so we have a
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  bunch of different topics I guess, or sections that we can
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  go down. I would love to learn about the
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  southbound and Southern music because that was really the
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  southern music was kind of the intersection I took between like
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  rock and the jam music. I guess by introduction through
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  the Marshall Tucker band or The Allman Brothers and then Derek
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  Trucks and, you know, and Tedeschi Trucks.
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  And you could tell that like there's a, you know, when you
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  hear those different genres, there's a style and a history
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  and like a sound and a, and a, and a whole feel.
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  Can you you want to elaborate on the some of the history maybe?
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  Yeah, sure. Well, it's kind of funny.
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  So Southbound, which the, the, the full title is Southbound and
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  Illustrated History of Southern Rock.
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  That was the first book that I wrote.
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  And what's interesting about that is that I had got, I had
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  sort of fallen into writing some liner notes or album notes,
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  which is a lost, lost art, but still exists, believe it or not,
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  for some historical reissues of some various artists.
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  And I hadn't actually written a full length book, but I knew I
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  had a book in me and it was not Southern rock.
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  But I have been kind of working on this book that, by the way,
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  I'm still writing. OK.
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  I've written seven books since, but but I do have a deal for it
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  now, so I have a deadline. So it's actually going to that's
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  a. Coaching right if.
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  It helps, yeah. But I got this call out of the
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  blue from an editor in New York. And he says, hey, we want to
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  publish a book about the history of Southern rock, And we hear
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  that you're the guy to do it. And in my mind, I thought, what?
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  Why? But I had enough sense in the
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  moment to go, OK, tell me more, you know?
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  And so he says, yeah, you know, we want to write this book.
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  It's like an overview of the history of Southern rock.
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  It's going to have a lot of photos.
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  We want a lot of deep text. And, you know, and I'm like, OK,
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  interesting. I'm interested, you know?
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  So then I get off the phone, and my friend Randy Poe calls me.
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  And Randy had written a biography of Dwayne Allman
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  amongst, you know, multiple other books, and it was
• 15:57
  published by the same publisher. And so Randy calls me.
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  He goes, hey, you're going to be getting a call from my publisher
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  because they called me and asked me if I wanted to write a book
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  about Southern Rock. And I told him no, that you're
• 16:09
  the guy to do it. Oh, I'm like, well, he already
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  called me. He's like, what?
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  I got off the phone with him like 10 minutes ago.
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  He's like, what did you say? And I said, well, I said, you
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  know, I'd be interested. And he goes, look, I'm going to
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  give you some advice. I know you have your passion
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  project book. The easiest way to get a book
• 16:29
  published is to have had a book published.
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  So take a year or so out of your life, write this book, and then
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  you're a published author and everything is going to be a lot
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  easier for you going forward, which was a huge, you know,
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  helping hand. You're the person in a week to
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  tell me this. By the way, writer that I've
• 16:50
  I've spoken to said the same thing, that they didn't start
• 16:53
  with the passion. They had a passion project in
• 16:56
  mind. Someone told them get XY and Z
• 16:59
  done for, you know, for commercial purposes or to get,
• 17:01
  you know, that you know that title and then and move on.
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  And it's so, it's so funny that that sentiment is so popular.
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  Yeah, I mean, he was absolutely right.
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  And I mean, the good news is I grew up in Nashville, like I
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  said, and I grew up exposed to a lot of Southern rock, and I
• 17:17
  liked Southern rock. So it wasn't like if somebody
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  had called me and was like, hey, we're looking for someone to
• 17:23
  write a book on pirate sea shanties of the 1500s, I'd be
• 17:27
  like, I have no idea where to go.
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  So at least it was something that I actually was interested
• 17:34
  in and and it kind of saw as an opportunity to learn more about.
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  So I kind of just dove in head first as a student of it, you
• 17:42
  know, and I learned a lot from the process of writing that.
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  But you know. I knew that.
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  What's that? How'd you research?
• 17:49
  What was your what was your research process?
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  How'd you go about it? Well, I basically just got all
• 17:55
  the books I could about The Allman Brothers and Lynyrd
• 17:57
  Skynyrd and, you know, started reading a bunch of articles and
• 18:01
  just deep diving, you know, finding a lot of articles from
• 18:05
  the time, you know, whether it be Rolling Stone or whatever,
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  interviews with these bands and just started pulling it all
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  together. Then I, you know, interviewed
• 18:14
  some of the players themselves and just started kind of trying
• 18:18
  to wrap my brain around how I was going to tell the story.
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  But the thing that stood out to me and it still kind of stays
• 18:25
  with me is, you know, Southern rockers like in the 70s were
• 18:31
  kind of considered like narrow minded rednecks by everybody
• 18:36
  outside the South. And everybody in the South
• 18:40
  considered them wild, long haired rock and rollers who
• 18:43
  weren't like good southern boys. So they were kind of like.
• 18:47
  Misfits. Everyone without a home, you
• 18:49
  know, So it's like they were kind of rebellious to everyone,
• 18:53
  which is sort of the spirit of rock'n'roll.
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  I also, what I really came away with was that all rock was
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  Southern rock in the beginning. If you look at, you know, Elvis
• 19:02
  is from, you know, Mississippi, and Buddy Holly is from Texas
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  and Little Richard is from Georgia, Fats Domino's from
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  Louisiana. Like you look at every architect
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  of rock'n'roll, they're literally all Southern.
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  And then once you have The Beatles come and then there's
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  this whole shift and you get into the whole like psychedelic
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  movement and then that all got kind of bloated and, and then
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  you have like the Band with Robbie Robertson come along and,
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  and everything kind of gets back to like rootsiness.
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  That's what kind of opened the door, I think, for Southern rock
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  to return because suddenly everybody's kind of interested
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  in this sort of earthiness and rootsiness that's different from
• 19:43
  the whole kind of like psychedelic movement.
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  So that's when you see The Allman Brothers and Lynyrd
• 19:48
  Skynyrd kind of rise to the fore.
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  And I was. Just appreciated with the band's
• 19:54
  success. What's up?
• 19:56
  So their their, I guess their revival was was associated with
• 20:00
  the band's success. The band kind of brought the
• 20:02
  feedback. I think the band were the ones
• 20:05
  who, like, sort of opened the door to make.
• 20:07
  I mean, they were a bunch of Canadians, except for Levon
• 20:09
  Helm, who's from Arkansas. But you know, they opened the
• 20:11
  door for that sort of appeal to, you know, the bands over here
• 20:15
  doing songs like The Night they Drove Old Dixie Down and Cripple
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  Creek. And like, these are Southern
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  rooted songs. And so I would say they and
• 20:24
  Creedence Clearwater Revival, who were from Northern
• 20:27
  California, even though people thought they were from
• 20:29
  Louisiana, like they kind of opened.
• 20:32
  The themselves along that way. Exactly.
• 20:35
  Yeah, and, and very credibly, they did it very well.
• 20:37
  But it those those bands I think open the door for like true
• 20:42
  Southern bands. And you know, The Allman
• 20:45
  Brothers and Lynyrd Skynyrd are not particularly similar in
• 20:49
  their in their sounds, but you know, 2 fantastic rock bands and
• 20:55
  there's so many others. Marshall Tucker Band you
• 20:57
  mentioned earlier and you know, Wet Willie and you know, all
• 21:00
  these great Southern rock bands. So yeah, that was a lot of fun
• 21:05
  for me and it's amazing how many connection points there are.
• 21:08
  I just finished writing a book that I turned in this week about
• 21:11
  soul music and. It's nice.
• 21:14
  It's. Like, wild.
• 21:15
  How many like soul figures behind the scenes and soul music
• 21:18
  were the same figures behind the scenes in Southern rock?
• 21:21
  You know, like all, all this stuff is kind of connected.
• 21:23
  It's pretty wild. What can you tell me?
• 21:26
  Can you elaborate on that a little bit without giving away
• 21:28
  your book? Well, yeah, I mean, like, so The
• 21:33
  Allman Brothers basically formed from Dwayne Allman and Barry
• 21:36
  Oakley and Jamo jamming at Fame Studios in Muscle Shoals.
• 21:41
  And Dwayne is down there playing guitar on studio sessions for,
• 21:49
  you know, Wilson Pickett and convinces Wilson Pickett to
• 21:52
  record Hey Jude. And his guitar solo at the end
• 21:54
  of Hey Jude is kind of considered the birth of Southern
• 21:56
  rock in a lot of ways. But then, you know, Aretha
• 21:59
  Franklin goes up to New York and wants these Muscle Shoal got
• 22:03
  Muscle Shoals guys to come up and be the backing band.
• 22:05
  And Dwayne is there. You look at pictures of Aretha's
• 22:08
  sessions, you know, where she's, you know, recording some of her
• 22:12
  classic hits. And you see Dwayne Allman in the
• 22:14
  background. You know, like Phil Walden, who
• 22:19
  was the head of Capricorn Records, which was The Allman
• 22:22
  Brothers label. He was previously Otis Redding's
• 22:25
  manager and you know, a lot of solo artist managers and you
• 22:29
  guys got guys like Rick Hall and Muscle Shoals who are producing,
• 22:33
  you know, these great classic soul records with Etta James and
• 22:37
  Wilson Crickett and Aretha, You know, but then at the same time
• 22:41
  he's like had a management contract on Dwayne Allman
• 22:45
  initially, you know, like, so it's just interesting how you
• 22:50
  see the the overlap that like you start getting into like
• 22:54
  gospel music, country music, Blues, rock'n'roll soul, and you
• 22:59
  start seeing some of these same people crop up and you're like,
• 23:03
  oh, there's connectivity, you know, amongst all of it.
• 23:06
  It's so amazing. It's so amazing and it's so cool
• 23:08
  that you're doing that because these these genres are so much
• 23:13
  fun and you could spend a lifetime in literally each one
• 23:15
  of them. I mean, it's really crazy and
• 23:17
  like such explosive creativity all at one point, you know, just
• 23:21
  like everywhere, just all over the place was just, it was, it
• 23:25
  was so incredible. What was it?
• 23:26
  What was it like when you were, by the way?
• 23:28
  I'm what was what was the context?
• 23:30
  How old are you at this point while you're getting while
• 23:32
  you're doing this first book? And what was it like meeting
• 23:34
  some of these while you're doing research, meeting some of these
• 23:37
  stars and meeting some of these incredible musicians that I'm
• 23:40
  sure you looked up, you were known about forever?
• 23:43
  Yeah, I mean, it was pretty crazy.
• 23:46
  You know, I remember interviewing Billy Gibbons
• 23:50
  because there's a ZZ Top chapter in the Southern Rock book and
• 23:54
  thinking like, you know, when I was a kid, ZZ Top was on MTV
• 23:59
  with like, you know, legs and, you know, sharp dressed man.
• 24:03
  And, you know, these guys were like living cartoon characters,
• 24:06
  you know, to a kid. And I remember like talking to
• 24:10
  Billy Gibbons on the phone and people would always talk about
• 24:14
  like, man, Billy Gibbons is like so full of it.
• 24:18
  Like he's such a mythologizer. Like, you know, and I'm like,
• 24:23
  you know, it wasn't like that with me.
• 24:24
  And then when I started thinking about our conversation, I'm
• 24:26
  like, wait, of course he was. There's no way some of this
• 24:29
  stuff was true, you know? But then also like embracing
• 24:32
  that of like, that's the point, you know, he's like a larger
• 24:35
  than life carnival Barker. Like that's what's great about
• 24:37
  him. Like that's what's that's why
• 24:39
  he's cool, you know, like a self mythologizer, you know, and but
• 24:44
  then I also realized like, oh, I could probably be a better
• 24:46
  interviewer. Like instead of just accepting,
• 24:49
  you know, everything that that somebody tells me, it's like, I
• 24:52
  feel like I kind of learned, you know, how to interview people by
• 24:57
  interviewing people. And, you know, I've had ones
• 25:01
  that have gone exceptionally well and I've had ones that gone
• 25:06
  not great, but I feel like I learned a little something, you
• 25:10
  know, every time. And especially with my podcasts,
• 25:12
  you know, we interview, we've, we've interviewed almost 300
• 25:15
  people And, you know, I feel like I get more comfortable with
• 25:21
  it, you know, each time. But, you know, I think I really
• 25:27
  had to learn like I used to research people and then go
• 25:31
  interview with them and ask them about a bunch of stuff that I'd
• 25:33
  already researched and, you know, and I had to learn that
• 25:36
  like I should probably ask him about something that, you know,
• 25:41
  I haven't seen them talk about before because why do I need to
• 25:44
  go mine the same, you know, material.
• 25:48
  So I, I try to like when I interview people now, I try to
• 25:52
  like let them know early on that, you know, I have done my
• 25:57
  homework because I think people appreciate that and let them
• 26:00
  know that I that I do know what I'm talking about.
• 26:04
  And then also feel the freedom to kind of let it go where it
• 26:08
  goes because I used to be like, Oh no, I have these 15
• 26:10
  questions. I got to get these questions
• 26:12
  asked. And when I'm a little less
• 26:14
  uptight about it and I just let it like go where it goes, I wind
• 26:17
  up finding out stuff that I maybe never would have stumbled
• 26:19
  on otherwise. So it's kind of getting getting
• 26:21
  me out of my own way a little bit, you know?
• 26:23
  But Southbound was, I mean, I wrote that book in 2013 and
• 26:28
  2014. So I didn't like begin my career
• 26:32
  as an author. Like I've only been doing this
• 26:35
  for, you know, better like a little more than a decade.
• 26:38
  So I, I, you know, I learned a lot doing that book in terms of
• 26:44
  how to to and I had interviewed people before for album notes
• 26:47
  and things that I had had written for essays and articles
• 26:50
  and stuff. But that was when it was like
• 26:52
  very concentrated, one big project.
• 26:54
  I really got to focus and like, get a lot of voices in here and
• 26:58
  so, yeah, it's like being thrown into the deep end of the pool
• 27:01
  and figuring out how to swim. Yeah, but sometimes, I mean,
• 27:05
  sometimes that's the way you got to do it, you know?
• 27:07
  And I mean, I'm finding that I'm finding that to be exceptionally
• 27:10
  true with my own experiences, you know, and like what you said
• 27:12
  about maybe I started doing podcasts a year and a half ago,
• 27:15
  you know, and, and it's all relatively new to me, but it's
• 27:20
  funny that you say that the bullet points or the list of
• 27:23
  questions, because I usually give my guests the choice.
• 27:26
  I say, I could send you a bullet, a list of bullet points
• 27:29
  of things that were that I'd like to get to.
• 27:31
  I was like, however, I don't want to be married to a script,
• 27:34
  you know, and a lot of times the conversation just kind of flows
• 27:37
  best when you let them breathe and everyone gets to do their
• 27:39
  own thing. So, so I was like, if you want a
• 27:41
  general gist, here's a couple of big points I want to get to.
• 27:44
  But overall, that's really, really amazing about the I'm,
• 27:49
  I'm particularly excited by the, the connection between Seoul and
• 27:53
  between Seoul and Southern rock. I have to look into that because
• 27:56
  I didn't think that I, I, I wouldn't have, I would have
• 27:58
  dreamt that. There's probably more like, you
• 28:00
  know, the famous Jerry Garcia playing on opening of teach
• 28:05
  children playing slide, you know, on Cosby Stills and Nash
• 28:08
  and young and and I knew that that whole like scene, the San
• 28:12
  Francisco or Laurel Canyon scene, everyone was always very,
• 28:14
  you know, popping in with one another.
• 28:16
  I didn't realize it extended cross genres across the country
• 28:19
  like that. Yeah, yeah.
• 28:21
  Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, it's the the
• 28:24
  guys who played on, you know, the Aretha Franklin stuff that
• 28:29
  she cut. Well, she really only cut one
• 28:31
  complete song in Muscle Shoals at FAME Studios, but those guys
• 28:35
  wound up going and launching their own studio called Muscle
• 28:39
  Shoals Sound and it's like they recorded the earliest Lynyrd
• 28:43
  Skynyrd recordings. They also recorded The Rolling
• 28:46
  Stones came through there and recorded Brown Sugar and Wild
• 28:51
  Horses. They had to cut about 3 songs in
• 28:53
  that studio. Well then those guys cut The
• 28:55
  Staple Singers, like I'll take you there, respect yourself.
• 29:00
  You know, these are the same group of people that are playing
• 29:03
  on these records, producing these records at their studio.
• 29:06
  But there's really a interesting, like, social
• 29:09
  component to all this in that the music industry was, you
• 29:14
  know, primarily white in terms of leadership, in terms of
• 29:21
  executives at record label studio owners, that sort of
• 29:24
  thing. And yet you had a phenomenal
• 29:27
  number of black artists who were, you know, making them all
• 29:31
  this money, having these hits. And when Martin Luther King
• 29:35
  died, there was such a sense of a shift.
• 29:42
  A lot of hope was lost. And a lot of black artists and a
• 29:48
  small handful of people in the black industry started looking
• 29:51
  around and going, you know, why? Why aren't there more black
• 29:55
  producers? Why aren't there more black
• 29:57
  radio programmers? Why aren't there more black
• 29:58
  executives? And there was really this tidal
• 30:02
  wave that began of we got to realign some things.
• 30:06
  And it was largely, you know, King's assassination that I
• 30:09
  think brought everything into sharp focus that, you know, it,
• 30:13
  it's time to quit waiting around for things to change.
• 30:17
  We got to change them. There you go.
• 30:18
  And, you know, a lot of a lot of white producers and executives
• 30:26
  were suddenly kind of cast as the villains and, you know, and
• 30:31
  seen as having been exploiting some of these artists.
• 30:34
  And in some cases that was true. And in other cases, I think some
• 30:38
  people were sort of unfairly characterized.
• 30:42
  And but, you know, for I think the net of that whole movement
• 30:47
  was a good thing that there was more.
• 30:50
  You saw more black ownership. You saw more black
• 30:52
  entrepreneurship, you saw more black participation in these
• 30:57
  bigger companies that had basically not had Black A&R men
• 31:00
  or black producers or whatever. Yeah, and I'd say A&R men, it
• 31:03
  was all men. Still incredibly sexist at that
• 31:07
  time, and probably still is. But that's when you see guys
• 31:12
  like Recall who owned Fame Studios.
• 31:14
  You see guys like Phil Walden, who had been Otis Redding's
• 31:17
  manager, that's when they start looking at groups.
• 31:20
  They start looking at people like Dwayne Allman and going,
• 31:22
  well, what's our, what's our future, you know?
• 31:24
  So that's what's really interesting is you see a lot of
• 31:28
  the industry people sort of glom onto the Southern rock thing
• 31:31
  because here's something that's rising and we've kind of lost
• 31:34
  our standing in the world of black music so.
• 31:38
  I see it's. Very interesting kind of social
• 31:42
  study in terms of all those connections and then how they
• 31:46
  kind of splintered and then took time in some cases to rebuild
• 31:50
  trust. And in some cases the trust was
• 31:52
  not rebuilt and in some cases it probably shouldn't have been
• 31:55
  because there was some exploitative stuff going on.
• 31:58
  So it's all from, and I don't get too often to all that, you
• 32:03
  know, in my writing about Southern rock, but it's it's in
• 32:07
  the backdrop and it's super interesting.
• 32:09
  Yeah, that's fascinating. I didn't know about that.
• 32:11
  I knew I knew. I I remember, I don't remember
• 32:15
  where I read it, but I remember reading that right after, after
• 32:19
  Martin Luther King Junior was shot.
• 32:22
  James Brandt, someone, I forgot who it was, maybe the government
• 32:24
  or maybe someone, someone pretty significant in society called
• 32:28
  James Brown. And he said, I need you.
• 32:31
  I need you to make sure that the black community does not, does
• 32:34
  not explode into, into riots. And he's like, I don't know what
• 32:39
  you know, like I know you have a big show.
• 32:40
  I think he had, he had a big show that night.
• 32:41
  You had a big concert and everyone was just getting the
• 32:43
  news And they were telling him like, you can either stir things
• 32:46
  up or you could, you know, calm things down.
• 32:49
  And I, I, and they were pleading him to calm things down.
• 32:52
  I don't remember. I don't even remember what James
• 32:54
  Brown, James Brown's response was, but just like, well, I
• 32:59
  think I think everyone knew that.
• 33:01
  Like, listen, whoever, whoever was the leadership in the quote
• 33:04
  UN quote record studio is one thing.
• 33:06
  But like the people creating the music and the sound, like
• 33:08
  everyone, all the great white music of the 60s and 70s came
• 33:13
  from, a majority of it came from black music, you know?
• 33:16
  And yeah. And I think people knew that.
• 33:19
  I think there was that as a society.
• 33:21
  I think that people, you know, recognize that, you know, this
• 33:23
  is really where everything comes from.
• 33:25
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 33:27
  Yeah, it was. It was right after King was
• 33:31
  killed that James Brown was supposed to be giving a concert.
• 33:34
  And I think it was in, I want to say Cleveland, or maybe it was
• 33:44
  Boston. It.
• 33:46
  Was Boston think it was. Boston, I think it was.
• 33:47
  Boston it was. Boston, yeah, in 16.
• 33:51
  So he had this concert scheduled and basically they were worried
• 33:59
  about, well, should we get. I mean, there had been these
• 34:01
  sort of uprisings in all of these major U.S. cities.
• 34:05
  Yeah. And they're like, do we need to
• 34:06
  bring a bunch of people downtown into Boston and, you know,
• 34:11
  potentially risk having a problem?
• 34:15
  You know, and basically they decided, OK, let's have James
• 34:21
  Brown go forward with the concert and let's put it on TV
• 34:24
  and encourage some people to stay home and watch it and some
• 34:26
  people to come. And like, it was essentially
• 34:30
  like, there was literally like 1 black Councilman.
• 34:34
  And he was like, if you cancel this concert, you're going to
• 34:37
  bring all of these people who are already like.
• 34:40
  Feeling this outrage? And then they're going to show
• 34:43
  up and there to be a concert's cancelled, like creating a
• 34:46
  powder can, you know? And so James Brown did perform
• 34:50
  and he did kind of make an appeal to like, hey, let's like
• 34:55
  let cooler heads prevail. And we're not going to solve.
• 34:57
  We're not going to answer violence with violence.
• 34:59
  And it is considered a, you know, kind of a pivotal,
• 35:04
  important moment in the aftermath so that Boston did not
• 35:07
  experience the people that, you know, other cities did.
• 35:11
  And even at one point, like a bunch of people did kind of like
• 35:15
  rush the stage and get on the stage and we're kind of dancing
• 35:17
  and stuff. And the police start moving in
• 35:19
  and you see James Brown. There's video of this.
• 35:21
  You see James Brown like telling the cops to back off.
• 35:24
  It's pretty bold when you're like one dude on stage and you
• 35:26
  got a bunch of fans like that are getting up and getting
• 35:28
  rowdy. And he basically like calms the
• 35:32
  whole thing down. It's like go back to your seats.
• 35:34
  Like you're embarrassing yourselves.
• 35:35
  Like, you know, And he he basically like intervenes and
• 35:40
  keeps the cops from probably creating a, a worse situation.
• 35:45
  So yeah, it's an interesting and James Brown's a completely
• 35:47
  interesting study because he's all about sort of like self
• 35:51
  determination, but also was like kind of conservative.
• 35:53
  He's a Nixon supporter. Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 35:56
  It's he's an interesting, an interesting sort of mix, you
• 36:02
  know, of, of conservative politics, but also, you know,
• 36:07
  very much pushing for equality for black Americans.
• 36:12
  You know, the the lines aren't always so neat with this stuff.
• 36:15
  You know, you sort of wind up with these complex figures where
• 36:17
  you're like, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 36:20
  Yeah, yeah, James Brown is, is another, is another guy that I
• 36:23
  have not yet gone deep enough into.
• 36:27
  But and, and was and was Sam Cooke killed earlier than this
• 36:32
  or around this point in time? When, when, when was he killed
• 36:34
  then? I mean, I'd love to talk about
• 36:36
  how, why, why that was so significant, you know, and how
• 36:39
  and, and how significant he was, if you went elaborate at all.
• 36:43
  I mean, Sam Cooke was, when you talk about soul music, Sam Cooke
• 36:46
  might have been the reason that soul music even ever existed as
• 36:50
  a concept. You could argue that it was Ray
• 36:52
  Charles or Sam Cooke, but Sam died in December of 1964, a
• 36:58
  couple years earlier, and that was like a huge loss.
• 37:03
  The thing that was the thing that's unique about soul music,
• 37:06
  as you know, compared to R&B, is the R&B music was, you know, of
• 37:12
  the 40s and 50s was very much kind of like this sort of upbeat
• 37:18
  dancing music. It's what, like, white artists
• 37:20
  basically took and turned into rock'n'roll.
• 37:23
  Yeah. That's why I like it.
• 37:25
  Yeah, right. And soul emerged in the 19, late
• 37:29
  1950s, early 1960s, and it really came directly out of the
• 37:33
  black church and where a lot of like R&B artists like Little
• 37:39
  Richard or whoever, like they, they, their music was not like
• 37:43
  the music of the church. But you have Ray Charles come
• 37:46
  and literally take gospel songs that were, you know, part of the
• 37:51
  church tradition and change the lyrics and in make them.
• 37:55
  I love the organ from that too, yeah.
• 37:57
  Yeah, and use the organ and use that style of singing.
• 38:00
  It comes right out of the church.
• 38:01
  Well, Sam Cooke, you know, Ray Charles had church in his
• 38:05
  background, but Sam Cooke was a member of the Soulsters, which
• 38:07
  was basically the most popular gospel group of the day.
• 38:11
  And his voice was so distinctive, and women were
• 38:16
  like, losing their minds over this guy.
• 38:18
  Like he was way too smooth and way too sexy, you know?
• 38:23
  Yeah, He was arousing far too much passion.
• 38:25
  That was more of the carnal side than the spiritual side.
• 38:30
  I say he might be responsible for the birth of soul music
• 38:33
  because when he started, I think, you know, when he left
• 38:37
  gospel music and went into secular music, he already had
• 38:40
  this huge fan base from the gospel world that he kind of
• 38:42
  brought with him. Yeah.
• 38:43
  And, you know, he was already like a rock star in in the
• 38:47
  gospel world, but then, you know, he really became kind of a
• 38:51
  pop singer. I mean, like, you send me and,
• 38:54
  you know, that's don't know much about history.
• 38:56
  Like all that stuff is to me, it's kind of pop music.
• 38:59
  But he had that smooth voice and everybody knew it was Sam Cooke,
• 39:02
  like, you know, who knew the soul stars.
• 39:05
  And toward the end of his life, he he recorded A Change is Going
• 39:09
  to Come, which was a pivotal civil rights anthem and very,
• 39:15
  very important song sociologically.
• 39:18
  And then it became a hit after he after he died.
• 39:21
  And that song is what he is most remembered for.
• 39:23
  I think rightfully so is that he was using his platform to say,
• 39:29
  you know, we've got to have some social change.
• 39:31
  And that's why I think Sam Cooke is so pivotal as a soul singer
• 39:34
  because I think soul music came out of the church, like I said,
• 39:38
  and he's he's the absolute representative of came from from
• 39:42
  that gospel church tradition, but then also addressed real
• 39:46
  life concerns. And soul music, I say in my
• 39:51
  book, was music that was sung by black adults for black adults.
• 39:57
  Like it wasn't really geared at teenagers, so to speak.
• 40:02
  It wasn't about getting up and dance dancing, at least not
• 40:07
  initially. It was about grappling with,
• 40:09
  like, real life, like infidelity, love, heartbreak,
• 40:12
  social change. And, you know, Sam Cooke kind of
• 40:16
  set the template for that in a lot of ways.
• 40:19
  And as it turned out, a lot of white people like that music,
• 40:22
  too. And, you know, a lot of that
• 40:24
  stuff crossed over and became pop hits.
• 40:26
  But I argue in the book that it really was intended for a black
• 40:31
  adult audience and that with the exception of Motown, where Berry
• 40:36
  Gordy wanted to sell any record he could to any individual on
• 40:40
  the face of the earth and was trying to be as neutral as
• 40:43
  possible. But otherwise the soul music
• 40:45
  movement appealed to to a white audience, but was really geared
• 40:51
  toward a black audience. And it, it transcended because
• 40:54
  they, they tapped into that sort of, you know, they would say,
• 40:58
  you know, soul is about feeling. And so you can't help but tap
• 41:02
  into the universal human experience at some point.
• 41:04
  And it's going to appeal to, you know, all kinds of people from
• 41:07
  all kinds of backgrounds. But but I do think of it as
• 41:11
  like, it's adult music that deals with real, real subject
• 41:14
  matter. And a change is going to come.
• 41:15
  It's probably one of the greatest songs ever written.
• 41:18
  Yeah, I, I, I feel like a change is going to come is like the
• 41:21
  flip side of the same coin as blowing in the wind as far as,
• 41:25
  like, you know, social change and justice like songs.
• 41:30
  For sure. Sam Cooke.
• 41:31
  I mean, literally heard Bob Dylan's blowing in the wind and
• 41:34
  was like, hey, who's this white cat?
• 41:36
  That's like speaking to our reality?
• 41:40
  Like, I got to do this. This guy's this guy.
• 41:42
  He covered that, or he covered the times they were changing.
• 41:44
  He covered blowing the wind right.
• 41:48
  I don't, I don't remember, but I know that I know that Dylan was
• 41:52
  was a huge inspiration for him to step out and say I need to be
• 41:57
  writing about social topics that matter.
• 42:00
  Yeah, he does a great cover of Blowing the Wind.
• 42:03
  We're checking out. And do you also, do you feel the
• 42:06
  same way about Blues in terms of the Black music for Black adults
• 42:09
  or Black adult music for Black adults, as far as its
• 42:13
  intentionality is concerned? Yeah.
• 42:16
  I mean, I think in the early days, absolutely.
• 42:18
  Yeah, right. I mean, it was, it was primarily
• 42:21
  black artists making music for a black audience.
• 42:24
  And then a bunch of white people, like resonated with it.
• 42:29
  And then, you know, most of white America ignored the Blues
• 42:33
  until The Rolling Stones, like fell in love with it and Eric
• 42:36
  Clapton. And then they sold it back to
• 42:39
  the white America that had ignored it to begin with.
• 42:42
  But the upside of that was then that people started going, hey,
• 42:46
  I love this Rolling Stone stuff. Who's Willie Dixon?
• 42:50
  Who's Muddy Waters? Who's Allen Wolf?
• 42:52
  Like, let me go find out. So, you know, I think that's a
• 42:57
  case where soul music was like a Direct Line to the radio.
• 43:01
  White audiences loved it. It crossed over to pop, whereas
• 43:03
  Blues took a generation to be sold package to a white audience
• 43:08
  through these British guys, which is super interesting.
• 43:13
  But and I and I think that even that, I think helped open the
• 43:17
  doors in some ways to Southern rock because now you've got
• 43:20
  British guys going. Blues music is cool.
• 43:22
  And you know, Blues is very much a Southern form originally that
• 43:27
  then went to Chicago and became electrified and a precursor to
• 43:31
  part of the Stew that made rock'n'roll.
• 43:33
  Yeah, right. But But, yeah, I think, you
• 43:36
  know, there, there's a great live record with Nina Simone
• 43:40
  where she's introducing her song to be young, gifted in black.
• 43:43
  And she basically says something to the effect of if you're
• 43:45
  white, you can like this song, but it's not for you.
• 43:48
  Yeah. I think you're not the center of
• 43:51
  the universe. I didn't write this song with
• 43:53
  you in mind. This is me as a black artist
• 43:57
  writing this song to a black audience.
• 43:59
  Like it all you want. It's fine.
• 44:00
  It doesn't bother me. I'm glad if you like it.
• 44:02
  But yeah. But know who it's for?
• 44:05
  Yeah, don't center it yourself. And I think there's something
• 44:09
  telling in that. There is, for sure, Yeah.
• 44:12
  It's funny that it's funny the way you put it, that Blues had
• 44:14
  to be repackaged and brought back.
• 44:17
  It blew my mind when I found out.
• 44:18
  It's funny. I tried to I never, The Rolling
• 44:22
  Stones really never resonated with me as strongly as some
• 44:25
  other bands at that at that time.
• 44:27
  And I like a lot of theirs. I like, I like their music
• 44:29
  plenty. And I really, I'm not, I'm not
• 44:31
  trying to detract anything from their greatness, but it blew my
• 44:34
  mind when I listened to the first record.
• 44:37
  I went back to the beginning and I tried listening to some of
• 44:39
  their discography and it was a, it was a weird, I never heard
• 44:44
  Blues. At this point in my life, it's
• 44:45
  probably 5 or 6 years ago, I never heard any Blues before
• 44:47
  like this is this doesn't sound like The Rolling Stones.
• 44:50
  And I didn't recognize any of the songs.
• 44:52
  And then Fast forward like 3 or 4 years and now I'm much more
• 44:55
  into the Blues actually, again through Way of the Grateful Dead
• 44:59
  where I would hear their covers from the early 60s, sorry, late
• 45:03
  60s, early 70s with Pig Pen. And, and then I'd look at all
• 45:06
  these like songs like, and then I'd look and then again I'd find
• 45:10
  the original songs and then I'd, and so I went through this whole
• 45:12
  little Blues phase and then I went back to the album and I'm
• 45:15
  like, this whole album's just covers.
• 45:17
  I started to realize that the Romance Stories are a cover
• 45:19
  band, you know and, and they were at first.
• 45:22
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. They definitely just started out
• 45:24
  covering Blues and early soul records that they liked and
• 45:28
  that's. How they it's so funny, isn't
• 45:29
  it? It's so crazy and you don't
• 45:31
  associate that. I mean, I love The Rolling
• 45:33
  Stones, one of my favorite bands, but basically, like The
• 45:36
  Rolling Stones didn't really become The Rolling Stones till
• 45:38
  like 68, you know, and from like 68 into the early 70s, seventy
• 45:42
  374, you know, that period of like Fingers Banquet and Sticky
• 45:48
  Fingers and Exile on Main Street, That stuff's just
• 45:52
  unbeatable. Yeah, for sure, for sure.
• 45:54
  And the whole, and I'm curious if you've what you know about
• 45:57
  this from a more historical or social perspective.
• 45:59
  But the Altamont, the Altamont fiasco, you call her the
• 46:03
  infamous Altamont concert, which I'm sure you'll explain just
• 46:07
  briefly, but that if you don't mind.
• 46:10
  But that they have an impact on the reputation on the way that
• 46:14
  they played music, on the way that they kind of looked at
• 46:16
  themselves. Because, you know, like from
• 46:19
  that point they kind of got a little bit more embracing,
• 46:23
  embracing, you know, the, you know, the good and the bad and
• 46:26
  the devil and and and and otherwise, you know, So, yeah,
• 46:30
  maybe you could talk about that a little bit.
• 46:32
  I think, you know, I think Mick got really freaked out by that.
• 46:37
  And you know, for maybe those who don't know, Altamont was a
• 46:40
  big concert in 1969 that supposed.
• 46:44
  To be the West Coast Woodstock. Yeah, the West Coast Woodstock,
• 46:47
  but the Hells Angels were hired to provide security, which by
• 46:53
  the way, that that came from the Grateful Dead.
• 46:56
  That was that was a Grateful Dead thing and a guy winds up
• 47:01
  getting stabbed to death and there was just so I know the
• 47:05
  Flying Braider brothers played on that show and I the.
• 47:09
  Dead were going to play. They left.
• 47:11
  Yeah, I did a couple of. I did a bird's book that Chris
• 47:15
  Hillman was involved in. And then I was, I edited Chris
• 47:17
  Hillman's autobiography and he, of course, was in the Birds and
• 47:23
  Flying Burrito Brothers. And, you know, he talked about
• 47:26
  like, from the time they arrived, it was like a mood that
• 47:30
  was just like a, he described it as like a sinister vibe in the
• 47:36
  air. And, you know, you're kind of
• 47:38
  coming out of this whole summer of like the Manson murders,
• 47:40
  which I think now there's just so much.
• 47:45
  It was more like shocking violence in the news this past
• 47:48
  weekend alone than people were exposed to.
• 47:52
  Yeah, in that era, probably in like a year, yeah.
• 47:55
  It's a big deal. There's a lot of deaths around
• 47:59
  that time, though, in Laurel Canyon.
• 48:00
  There's a whole lot of odd deaths around then, too.
• 48:03
  Yeah, so. Yeah.
• 48:04
  And I remember, I just remember Chris talking about like, if you
• 48:08
  weren't there, you can't grasp, like how this just sort of
• 48:12
  almost evil vibe was permeating, you know, at the time.
• 48:18
  And he's like, we went up there and he's like, from the time we
• 48:20
  arrived at Altamont, it was just like everything was like,
• 48:23
  unsettled and kind of spooky and, you know, basically, I
• 48:32
  think it really freaked out Mick Jagger after that happened.
• 48:36
  But it's widely considered like the end of the hippie era.
• 48:40
  You know, you think of Monterey and you think of Woodstock and
• 48:43
  it's all peace and love. And then like now you go, wait.
• 48:46
  Well, maybe we're not insulated from the harsh realities of
• 48:49
  violence, you know, And so, yeah, it was a, it was a big
• 48:54
  deal. But I, I remember just Chris
• 48:55
  talking to me about that, about the, the feeling of that day
• 49:00
  from somebody who was there and, and yeah, I mean, it's, it's
• 49:04
  sort of marks the, the end of the peace and love and all the
• 49:07
  possibilities. And you know it.
• 49:09
  It's like harsh reality comes crashing into the, you know,
• 49:14
  hippie utopia in a way. Yeah, I mean, and I and I and I
• 49:18
  believe, I mean based on the accounts that I read and I could
• 49:20
  be wrong, but based on a couple of accounts that I read about
• 49:23
  this general point in time, Haight Ashbury was kind of
• 49:27
  crumbling at this point in terms of everyone is kind of moving
• 49:30
  out. And and people kind of went from
• 49:32
  like shrooms and LSD to more speed and heroin and and coke.
• 49:37
  And so like you kind of have these, what would be typically
• 49:40
  called like love drugs and love scene kind of getting permeated
• 49:44
  with something a little bit more sinister.
• 49:45
  And I mean, tell anyone, you know, try, you know, give
• 49:48
  someone, give someone some LSD and give someone a lot a bump of
• 49:50
  coke and see, you know, what the difference is in terms of their,
• 49:53
  in terms of the, the outcome, you know.
• 49:55
  And so I'm, I wonder if that was more of like of Ultima was kind
• 49:59
  of the, the first, first attempt of a gathering for this new
• 50:05
  crowd that had moved into the to that area.
• 50:09
  Because I think we can't say again that this everything was
• 50:11
  kind of heading down, going downhill for for San Francisco
• 50:14
  at that point. Yeah.
• 50:17
  And you, you got to look at like, what drugs cost what
• 50:19
  money. And then all of a sudden these,
• 50:21
  like rock stars have a lot of money that they never had
• 50:25
  before. Then you start getting into the
• 50:27
  expensive, the expensive drugs. And you know, then these guys
• 50:33
  like, yeah, didn't do their personalities any favors.
• 50:36
  I just read a Wonderland Ave. for the first time.
• 50:38
  My friend of my friend of the podcast sent me, sent me the
• 50:43
  copy of the book and the first half of the book blew my mind.
• 50:47
  I don't know if you read it before you know, it's about it's
• 50:49
  about what's his name? The he was Jim Morrison's
• 50:54
  publicist in like high school, Danny Sugarman and his story.
• 50:59
  And so the first half of the book is how he was in high
• 51:01
  school as a, you know, even middle school, you know, and
• 51:04
  just hanging around the door scene.
• 51:06
  And then he just started taking the mail and writing the press
• 51:08
  releases. And then the whole second-half
• 51:10
  of the book is just about his full blown heroin addiction and
• 51:15
  like what that was. And, and again, this also
• 51:18
  coincides historically with the exact same transition from the
• 51:21
  time period from the late 60, you know, from like end of 68
• 51:25
  and then like entering the 70s, just becoming like a heroin,
• 51:28
  coke kind of scene that was just so destructive to everyone
• 51:32
  around it that like music literally had to just move on
• 51:34
  down somewhere else. You know, it's crazy.
• 51:36
  Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Can.
• 51:39
  You tell me about the birds a little bit cuz I, I love them
• 51:43
  and, and I like, I think I'm more of a CSNY guy.
• 51:46
  But how did you decide to write about them?
• 51:49
  Was that a passion project or is that something that was
• 51:51
  recommended again by, by a friend or an editor?
• 51:54
  How'd that go? No, it was.
• 51:57
  It was my idea. As I mentioned, I edited Chris
• 52:02
  Hillman's autobiography, which is called Time between my My
• 52:07
  Life is a Bird, Burrito Brother and beyond.
• 52:10
  I was like a good, I like a good long subtitle so people know
• 52:13
  what they're getting into. And so I had worked with Chris
• 52:17
  on that. And then around the time right
• 52:22
  before the pandemic hit, I was, I wanted to get into doing some
• 52:28
  like really nice coffee table books, like expensive high end,
• 52:34
  like collector item type coffee table books.
• 52:37
  And I thought, wow, wouldn't it be cool to do a Bird's coffee
• 52:40
  table book? But, you know, obviously the
• 52:45
  band hadn't been together in many years.
• 52:47
  Sure. And David Crosby did not tend to
• 52:52
  endear himself to people that he had been in bands with before.
• 52:57
  And so Crosby and and Rodger Mcguinn basically, like didn't
• 53:09
  have any communication with each other.
• 53:12
  I think Chris and, and Crosby would like text and stuff, but
• 53:15
  it wasn't like they hung out like, you know, they weren't
• 53:18
  tight. And the Birds had not done
• 53:21
  anything like those three guys had not done anything in years
• 53:27
  since the 90s. Like there was a box set that
• 53:30
  came out in the early 90s and they did a few new songs.
• 53:32
  But that was the last time that Mcguinn and Hillman and Crosby
• 53:35
  had done anything together. So I thought, what are the
• 53:38
  chances, you know, of making this actually happen?
• 53:42
  And I basically talked to Chris and his wife Connie, who is his
• 53:50
  manager and has an amazing background herself working with
• 53:53
  Elton John and Queen and all these, you know, you know, great
• 53:56
  artists. So she was basically like, well,
• 54:00
  you know, we'll talk about it with the Mcguinns.
• 54:02
  And the Mcguinns were on board and, and Chris and Rodger are
• 54:07
  pretty good friends. And they had been out on tour
• 54:09
  with Marty Stewart, who is a big country artist, and they've been
• 54:13
  doing this anniversary series of concerts for the Sweetheart of
• 54:18
  the Rodeo album that the Birds, You know, they're one kind of
• 54:21
  big country album that was a complete flop at the time, but
• 54:24
  it's become a cult classic. So those guys have been working
• 54:26
  together, but not with with Crosby because Crosby was out of
• 54:30
  the band at that point when they did Sweetheart.
• 54:33
  But basically, I think the only reason that the Mcguinns, like,
• 54:39
  got on board was because the Hillman's were like, yeah, we've
• 54:42
  worked with this guy, like, he's OK.
• 54:45
  Like, you know, and literally the the Mcguinn's whole thing
• 54:50
  was like, our contract has to be identical to whatever contract
• 54:54
  Hillman got, you know, because we trust that they will have
• 54:56
  negotiated a good contract. So I was like, yeah, no problem,
• 55:00
  that's fine with me. And then Crosby got on board.
• 55:04
  And the real reason Crosby got on board is because the pandemic
• 55:09
  was starting and he couldn't go out and tour.
• 55:13
  And, you know, Crosby LED a storied life and did not hang on
• 55:19
  to a lot of his money and so. But he spent it well.
• 55:23
  Yeah, yeah, he Speaking of expensive drugs.
• 55:28
  So he basically was like, yeah, I can't go out and tour and make
• 55:32
  a living. So a book advance sounds, you
• 55:34
  know, good. So he signed on and then I
• 55:39
  became the 3 ring, you know, circus master where I would just
• 55:44
  go back and forth between these three guys.
• 55:46
  Wow. As we put this book together and
• 55:51
  it was Wildman like it was, it's got to be the, IT was the.
• 55:55
  Entire world. No, I mean, do we we when you
• 55:58
  wake up, you're like, I'm so excited to do this or like, was
• 56:02
  it, I mean, we was it a dream? What was it like?
• 56:05
  Because these are the main it was you're dealing with.
• 56:07
  Yeah, yeah, it was great. I mean, I basically I was like,
• 56:11
  I want to find every photo of the birds that was ever taken.
• 56:16
  And the book was like just 1964 to 1967.
• 56:20
  So it was just the original Five guys.
• 56:24
  And then like Jean Clark peeled off, you know, relatively early
• 56:27
  Crosby was out so. But by the by the end of 67, it
• 56:33
  was only three of the original guys that remained.
• 56:38
  And so I took it up to that that point.
• 56:40
  And then of course, like Graham Parsons briefly, you know, came
• 56:43
  in and then Hillman left and then like Mcguinn went on for
• 56:47
  like another 5-6, seven years, whatever, with different
• 56:50
  configurations. But this was just the original,
• 56:54
  you know, original lineup that I was dealing with.
• 56:56
  So I was dealing with like, so I was like, I got to find every
• 56:58
  photo of these guys and I'll say that I haven't seen a photo
• 57:02
  since that I. I haven't seen.
• 57:04
  That I haven't seen. And then just start going
• 57:07
  through the photos with the guys like, hey, what do you like?
• 57:10
  What do you not like, you know, what do you want?
• 57:13
  And they were all pretty different in terms of like one
• 57:17
  of them was just like, I don't care.
• 57:20
  One of them was like, I want to see every single one.
• 57:23
  Like, you know, it was just a different experience with each
• 57:26
  member of the group. But yeah, just starting to like
• 57:30
  that. That's when the research becomes
• 57:32
  like, I feel like a detective where I'm trying to like, find
• 57:36
  all these images and then like, figure out how this is all going
• 57:38
  to fit together. And I love this sort of like
• 57:40
  puzzle part of it where you're like, OK, we've got, we've got
• 57:43
  this, we got that. How does this all get going to
• 57:45
  fit together? How is it going to flow?
• 57:49
  And then just sitting down with those three guys separately and
• 57:52
  being like, let's walk through every photo.
• 57:55
  Tell me the stories that this evokes.
• 57:57
  Tell me if you remember this or if you don't or like, you know,
• 58:00
  whatever. So.
• 58:02
  Those conversations season their stories like multiple people
• 58:05
  have different memories based on the picture.
• 58:09
  Yeah, yeah, sometimes. And in the book, I mean,
• 58:12
  sometimes I just have contradictory things right next
• 58:14
  to each other because the book, the book will have like, you
• 58:18
  know, it's Roger's. It'll say who's speaking.
• 58:21
  So the book is like an oral history.
• 58:22
  So where it's like Roger, Chris, David, sometimes they'll be two
• 58:27
  memories right next to each other that completely contradict
• 58:29
  each other. But I'm like, that's fine.
• 58:30
  Yeah. You know, everybody remembers
• 58:32
  something different, you know? So I kind of like that when
• 58:36
  doing history, Like, people remember things differently.
• 58:38
  So let's just put up both their memories and then, you know.
• 58:42
  Good for you, good for you. That's such a great way of doing
• 58:46
  it. It's so honest.
• 58:47
  It's so cool. There's a great author, I want
• 58:51
  to say his name is James Andrew Miller, but I'm also not sure if
• 58:55
  I'm thinking of the right guy. He wrote a book, a book called
• 58:57
  Tinderbox. He wrote a book about the CIA.
• 59:00
  He he wrote about ESPN. And the way that he writes books
• 59:05
  is he essentially compiles hundreds of hours of interviews
• 59:09
  and then arranges snippets of the interviews into a coherent
• 59:12
  story similar to what you're saying.
• 59:14
  And you know, and so like, you'll have, for example, like
• 59:17
  with HBO book, you'll be like 2 guys talk about the same deal.
• 59:21
  And the 2 ends of the story is like is the best fucking deal I
• 59:24
  ever made in my entire life. Other guys like I never should
• 59:26
  have made that fucking deal. It was the end of my career, you
• 59:30
  know, And so I mean, I, I love that.
• 59:32
  I think that I think that embracing that kind of multi,
• 59:35
  multi narrative is, is tons of fun.
• 59:37
  How do you sorry, go ahead. I remember when I was doing the
• 59:40
  Southern Rock book, having an instance where Ed King from
• 59:48
  Lynyrd Skynyrd had gone through this whole very specific memory
• 59:54
  of how one particular song came together in the studio.
• 59:59
  And Al Cooper, who was their producer, also famous for, you
• 1:00:03
  know, playing the organ on like a Rolling Stone and a bunch of
• 1:00:06
  other Dylan stuff. That's right.
• 1:00:07
  One of the great characters of rock'n'roll history.
• 1:00:10
  But Al Cooper produced that Lynyrd Skynyrd record and I
• 1:00:14
  interviewed him and he was an interesting guy.
• 1:00:18
  He I don't think he really wanted to do an interview, so he
• 1:00:21
  told me he would do it at 3:00 in the morning.
• 1:00:24
  Really. Yeah.
• 1:00:26
  Yeah, OK. So, but little did he know that
• 1:00:29
  he lived in New York and I lived in LA.
• 1:00:31
  So I'm like 3:00 is midnight for me.
• 1:00:33
  So it's not that bad. You know, so funny.
• 1:00:36
  So so I I called his bluff and we did it at 3:00 in the
• 1:00:39
  morning. No way.
• 1:00:40
  What was it like? And called him.
• 1:00:42
  Yeah, so I called him and we talked and but he had this thing
• 1:00:46
  of like, he wanted to see the chapter before he'd agreed to
• 1:00:49
  let me publish it, which I wouldn't do that today, but this
• 1:00:53
  is my first book. And I said, OK, So I sent him
• 1:00:56
  the chapter and he goes, he disagreed with what Ed King had
• 1:01:00
  said about how the session went. And I had both of their
• 1:01:03
  remembrances, like paragraphs, like next to you, like every,
• 1:01:07
  every man got his say, you know, And I was like, well, the way I
• 1:01:12
  remember it is right. That's what happened.
• 1:01:13
  So you can't put what Ed said. And I'm like, well, but it's
• 1:01:16
  clearly attributed to Ed. It's not me saying this is how
• 1:01:19
  it happened. Ed says how he remembers it.
• 1:01:22
  You say how you remember it, everyone you know.
• 1:01:23
  And he was really like, he had to, I had to really fight him on
• 1:01:27
  that. Like he was, you know, and I'm
• 1:01:29
  like, look, dude, like what if I talk to Ed and he said I got to
• 1:01:32
  take yours out? Like, yeah, you know, the only
• 1:01:34
  fair thing to do is let you both have your your memories here.
• 1:01:38
  So I've always kind of followed that ever sense of like if it
• 1:01:40
  contradicts, put them both. Yeah, that's awesome.
• 1:01:43
  That's a great story, too. What a character, dude.
• 1:01:46
  What a character. What do you think of the Dylan
• 1:01:47
  movie? The what do you call it?
• 1:01:52
  The new one with Timothy. Timothy Chamolais.
• 1:01:54
  A complete yeah. Yeah, complete unknown.
• 1:01:58
  I liked it. I thought, like, this is where
• 1:02:02
  as a music historian, yeah, I have to, like, shut off a part
• 1:02:06
  of my brain. Yeah.
• 1:02:07
  Because a dramatic film is not a documentary.
• 1:02:11
  And, you know, I'm. I'm the guy that's gonna like
• 1:02:15
  elbow my wife and be like, that song didn't even come out till
• 1:02:17
  two years after this is supposed to be, you know, And it's like,
• 1:02:19
  oh. Really, there was that kind of
• 1:02:21
  inexistence, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, you have stuff
• 1:02:23
  like that in any biopic, you know, like, and so I I'm the guy
• 1:02:29
  that has to like, go in and back, OK?
• 1:02:31
  Don't be annoying, like turn off that part of your brain.
• 1:02:36
  Same with the Springsteen. I didn't want to like, yeah.
• 1:02:39
  What'd you think of it? I liked it.
• 1:02:41
  I liked it. Ultimately, it's like a a pretty
• 1:02:45
  good film about mental health. And if you go into it as I'm
• 1:02:50
  looking for a ironclad documentary of Bruce
• 1:02:54
  Springsteen, you're going to be disappointed.
• 1:02:56
  But if you're like, I'm interested in the human story.
• 1:02:59
  It's good. It's a good story.
• 1:03:00
  I thought that Timothy Chalamet, his portrayal of Dylan was so
• 1:03:05
  good. I thought it was incredible.
• 1:03:09
  So I thought even the hand thing and the little nuances he got
• 1:03:12
  were very were very solid. There's a scene where he goes.
• 1:03:17
  I think he's gone to visit Joan Baez in some hotel room, and
• 1:03:21
  there's a scene where he's standing in the doorway and the
• 1:03:23
  light is behind him so that he's like a silhouette.
• 1:03:26
  And I was like, this guy, the way he's holding himself has a
• 1:03:31
  silhouette is exactly like Dylan.
• 1:03:33
  It's unbelievable. Yeah.
• 1:03:35
  So I thought that his portrayal was great.
• 1:03:38
  And I thought Jeremy Allen White did a good job as Bruce, too.
• 1:03:40
  It's just that I had seen too much of the bear to ever, like,
• 1:03:45
  forget that it was him. Yeah, You know, he didn't get
• 1:03:48
  lost in being in Springsteen. You know, I didn't, I didn't
• 1:03:51
  watch The Bear yet, so I don't have that problem.
• 1:03:53
  I'll make sure to watch from nowhere first.
• 1:03:56
  Yeah, that was that. That's been a secret ambitious
• 1:03:59
  ambition of mine is to write us. I've worked for for years, a
• 1:04:04
  little bit at a time on a Springsteen script.
• 1:04:06
  Because I, I mean, I love his story, man.
• 1:04:10
  I love the story of the kid. I didn't have anything.
• 1:04:13
  And then, you know, and just the one track focus on, you know, on
• 1:04:20
  just performing and just bringing it to life.
• 1:04:22
  And you can see like in every single performance, it was a, it
• 1:04:27
  was like a complete expression of mental.
• 1:04:29
  It was like a full emotional roller coaster every single
• 1:04:32
  show, you know, I mean, you're crying when he's talking about
• 1:04:34
  his dad and he's an incredible storyteller and he takes his
• 1:04:37
  time and the tempo changes so dramatically, you know, like
• 1:04:40
  even within the songs was so much fun.
• 1:04:43
  And hearing little stories like they used to open for like The
• 1:04:46
  Allman Brothers or, you know, something like that, always also
• 1:04:49
  fun, fun tidbits that you know to come across.
• 1:04:53
  Yeah, for sure. And then, you know, I loved his
• 1:04:57
  one man show where he got up and like admitted to all the self
• 1:05:00
  mythologizing that he never did and like, you still kind of love
• 1:05:03
  him for it anyway. You know, it's like, is
• 1:05:05
  something about him? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Cuz he's
• 1:05:07
  honest, he's honest and he's frank.
• 1:05:09
  And I think that there's it's funny, I had AI had a poetry
• 1:05:11
  teacher from the same, you know, from Elizabeth, NJ that also had
• 1:05:15
  that same kind of like blue collar background with just like
• 1:05:21
  this incredible descriptive poetry for the plainness and
• 1:05:27
  ruggedness and, you know, weariness of life that and with
• 1:05:30
  that humor, you know, like just really like there's something
• 1:05:32
  about that. I think that like jersey grind
• 1:05:34
  from that time that was really that lent itself to that kind of
• 1:05:37
  creativity. Really cool.
• 1:05:38
  Yeah. And I also believe just from
• 1:05:40
  like, you know, being a music nerd, that there are people like
• 1:05:44
  Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Joni Mitchell, these
• 1:05:51
  people are just chosen. And they are, they get to be the
• 1:05:57
  recipients of some kind of cosmic flow.
• 1:06:01
  Yeah, That they can't help. I think Willie Nelson, I will
• 1:06:07
  put him in that category. And no matter how hard somebody
• 1:06:12
  sets out to work to try to become like that, you can seek
• 1:06:16
  inspiration from these people, but you can't become those
• 1:06:20
  people unless you were chosen like I think, you know, and I
• 1:06:23
  think like a Jesse Wells to come back to somebody that we were
• 1:06:26
  talking about that you think he's.
• 1:06:27
  Like that I. Think he's kind of like that,
• 1:06:29
  you know, and I think it's just like, you know, it's really
• 1:06:32
  unfair for the people who like Long to be that so badly.
• 1:06:36
  I just don't think you can make yourself in debt.
• 1:06:38
  You can make yourself better. Like writing songs and recording
• 1:06:41
  songs and playing an instrument. There is undoubtedly
• 1:06:44
  craftsmanship involved. And if somebody has that spark
• 1:06:49
  and they never hone it, they don't work on it, then it's
• 1:06:52
  never going to go anywhere but you.
• 1:06:54
  You have to if you're going to there's.
• 1:06:57
  Something deep you guys tap into?
• 1:06:59
  Yeah, if you're really going to like, work on that craft and
• 1:07:03
  become the greatest, you also got to just be one of those
• 1:07:05
  chosen people that, you know, and I think that the true icons,
• 1:07:10
  the Paul Mccartneys of the world, you know, there's just
• 1:07:13
  something, there's some spiritual reality that I don't
• 1:07:16
  claim to understand. That just is and yeah, you know,
• 1:07:20
  I don't think somebody can will themselves into being that and.
• 1:07:24
  You know what's interesting, I even think that it could strike
• 1:07:26
  you for longer or shorter periods of time because yeah,
• 1:07:29
  you know, I mean, I've like, there's a great book I read
• 1:07:31
  called Astral Weeks about 68 Boston.
• 1:07:34
  That's how I actually knew about the Jim James Brown comment
• 1:07:38
  earlier. But it was about, you know, and
• 1:07:40
  about Van Morrison making Astral Weeks and you know, and by his,
• 1:07:44
  you know, and like, or you have I took my wife a couple years
• 1:07:46
  ago to see John Fogerty. I mean, Creedence had a million
• 1:07:51
  hits in two years. And then, you know, and then it
• 1:07:53
  kind of you got the, you know, taking the ballpark sauce, you
• 1:07:58
  know, but you know, but like there's certain people that they
• 1:08:00
  kind of like have you see flashes of it for a couple of
• 1:08:02
  years and then, you know, a couple of albums and it just
• 1:08:05
  causes Nash and young 11 magic album, you know, 1 1/2 or
• 1:08:09
  meatloaf. So it's cool.
• 1:08:11
  It's really fascinating. Yeah, there's a window for some
• 1:08:13
  people. And ultimately, I think maybe
• 1:08:16
  those are the people who, you know, you can trust that with a
• 1:08:20
  Neil Young or Bob Dylan or Bruce Springsteen that have just been
• 1:08:24
  doing it at a high level for decades and decades and decades.
• 1:08:27
  And those are the ones that I think are the chosen ones.
• 1:08:30
  And I think John Fogerty is amazing.
• 1:08:33
  He's a genius. And, you know, there's certain
• 1:08:37
  artists. But when when there's that
• 1:08:38
  window, yeah. I mean, you got to appreciate
• 1:08:43
  the window for what it is. It's like, oh, it's, it's
• 1:08:45
  incredibly fruitful, but there's very few artists and you.
• 1:08:51
  Like looking at my back door and then never being able to do it
• 1:08:53
  again and you'll be like what the hell I don't understand
• 1:08:56
  before you go. But I mean, I think what's even
• 1:08:59
  more crazy than that is like, how do I, how am I still
• 1:09:03
  interested to hear what Bruce Springsteen's next album is
• 1:09:05
  gonna be? Yeah, that's even more
• 1:09:07
  remarkable that that there are people where the window like
• 1:09:12
  never closes. There's very few, you know.
• 1:09:14
  What do you think of his last few albums Chasing Wild Horses
• 1:09:17
  and and then the soul one? The Soul Cover 1.
• 1:09:21
  The soul cover one didn't interest me very much.
• 1:09:23
  I'm like, you're not going to improve on these, you know?
• 1:09:28
  But all of, I mean, I love all of his records.
• 1:09:31
  You know my favorite Bruce is acoustic Bruce, which is
• 1:09:34
  probably not. The most sure.
• 1:09:36
  You know, popular thing in the world, but, and Nebraska is my
• 1:09:40
  favorite Bruce album goes to Tom Jode is up there as well.
• 1:09:45
  You know, I've seen Bruce perform just him and an acoustic
• 1:09:48
  guitar, which is my favorite way, yeah, to see him.
• 1:09:51
  There's only a couple of he only did a couple of those tours,
• 1:09:53
  right? Like the late 90s, early 2000s.
• 1:09:56
  Yeah, I saw him in like 96 or 97 somewhere in there doing that
• 1:10:01
  small 2000 seat venue, you know, all acoustic show because, I
• 1:10:08
  mean, and look, I just saw Bruce on this last tour here, you
• 1:10:11
  know, in LA and I couldn't believe how good it was.
• 1:10:15
  That was awesome. The the energy, energy level.
• 1:10:18
  They came out and did they they kicked out the show with open
• 1:10:22
  all night Nice and with like a full horn section and the energy
• 1:10:26
  is off the charts. I'm like, this guy is like well
• 1:10:29
  into his 70s. Yeah.
• 1:10:31
  And I could not have done that show.
• 1:10:33
  Yeah, you know, and it went for a course, you know, I had to get
• 1:10:37
  up and go pee. How did Bruce not have to go
• 1:10:39
  pee? Sure.
• 1:10:40
  You know this old? Guy Yeah, I don't.
• 1:10:44
  Know but I mean so like I love the electrifying energy of of
• 1:10:49
  the E street band, but my favorite Bruce is is acoustic
• 1:10:52
  Bruce because he's a great lyricist and you can really like
• 1:10:55
  marinate and I love when he you know, does a song like born to
• 1:10:59
  run acoustic. Yeah, those are great growing
• 1:11:02
  up. Growing up is such a, is such A
• 1:11:04
  and he always has that story there.
• 1:11:06
  I, I went, I had tickets. I, I'm not exaggerating, I was
• 1:11:11
  single. I was an idiot and I didn't care
• 1:11:13
  about my I, I was saving money at that point and I bought 2
• 1:11:17
  tickets to his Broadway show for 1000 bucks and, and I couldn't
• 1:11:22
  make it. I work with my dad and I had to
• 1:11:25
  go and, and we had to go on a work trip.
• 1:11:27
  And I was like, you know what? Like this guy is giving me
• 1:11:29
  everything in the freaking world.
• 1:11:31
  I'll give the stupid tickets and I'll go on the trip instead,
• 1:11:33
  right? And so I give the tickets and
• 1:11:35
  the entire night he's texting me.
• 1:11:37
  This is the best thing I've ever seen.
• 1:11:39
  And then the next day he calls me.
• 1:11:40
  He goes, I'm still high from that show.
• 1:11:42
  That was incredible. And I got to take my wife to.
• 1:11:45
  So we live in South Florida. He was playing in Orlando in
• 1:11:49
  Tampa to open the first tour since before COVID.
• 1:11:52
  And, and so we went to that show and like 2 days later he was
• 1:11:56
  playing Orlando and it was so great.
• 1:11:57
  I was like, I know you don't have to come if you don't want
• 1:11:59
  to come. I'm going to Orlando.
• 1:12:01
  I'm going to Orlando today. I'll come back tonight, you
• 1:12:03
  know, but like I got, I got to catch that show.
• 1:12:05
  It's too good to miss out. Anyway, Scott, I really
• 1:12:10
  appreciate the time. This is this is so much fun and
• 1:12:13
  you are a wealth of fun and cool information.
• 1:12:17
  So thank you so much for the time and for the great stories
• 1:12:21
  and this is really great. I hope to do this again.
• 1:12:25
  Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having.
• 1:12:26
  Me find your work in case anyone wants to look you up.
• 1:12:30
  You can go to scottbbomar.com, That's Scott just like you think
• 1:12:36
  B and then Bomar, BOMAR, Scott, B bomar.com.
• 1:12:40
  That's my online home for all the various things I do,
• 1:12:45
  including my song craft Spotlight and songwriters
• 1:12:48
  podcast. But that's where you can find
• 1:12:50
  all my books and some articles and, you know, find out more
• 1:12:54
  about how to read some of the music nerd stuff that I love to
• 1:12:59
  write. And don't go to scottbomar.com
• 1:13:02
  because there's another guy named Scott Bomar.
• 1:13:04
  Got to be Scott B Bomar. I listened to your episode with
• 1:13:07
  Sean Levy. There's two Sean, 2 Sean Levy's.
• 1:13:11
  There's also 2 Scott Bomars and the other Scott Bomar, who is a
• 1:13:15
  great guy and super nice. He lives in Memphis, but he
• 1:13:18
  scores films. Oh.
• 1:13:20
  Sweet. Maybe I'll talk to him.
• 1:13:22
  I. Always know when?
• 1:13:23
  I always know when he's got a new film coming out because I
• 1:13:26
  start getting texts from people and then he get when I have a
• 1:13:30
  new book come out, he he like starts texting me going, oh, OK,
• 1:13:34
  so everybody's congratulating me on your new book.
• 1:13:37
  And so anyway, he did the music for Song Sung Blue, this Hugh
• 1:13:40
  Jackman film that's coming out, I think on Christmas Day.
• 1:13:44
  And so I've already, because I live in LA, I've already had
• 1:13:47
  some people who've been to screeners.
• 1:13:49
  They're like, hey man, Congrats. I didn't know you, you know, but
• 1:13:52
  he did like hustle and flow and like a bunch of a bunch of films
• 1:13:56
  with Craig Brewer. And so, yeah, I always know when
• 1:14:00
  he's got a new one because people go, hey, I was watching
• 1:14:02
  such a such a mic wasn't me, but yeah, so.
• 1:14:07
  Any press is good press, any attention is good, right?
• 1:14:10
  Exactly. Exactly.
• 1:14:11
  Beautiful, Scott. Thanks so much, man.
• 1:14:13
  I really appreciate it. We'll talk.
• 1:14:14
  Soon. Take care.
• 1:14:15
  Thank you.