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The NEURO Standard: Transforming Workplace Inclusion with Robert Annis · NDV Podcast: Neurodiverse Voices Connect

0:12
Hello and welcome to the Neuro Diverse Voices Podcast where
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live the experience, professional insight and honest
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conversations come together to explore neuro diversity from
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different perspectives. My name is Andrea Costa, and I
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am the founder and Managing Director of Neuro Diverse Voices
0:32
Connect and also your podcast host.
0:35
This season is particularly special for us because it marks
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the beginning of an exciting new chapter.
0:42
For the past two years, Neuro Diverse Voices has been growing
0:45
through a series of pilot projects, creating spaces for
0:48
conversations, learning from our community, building
0:52
partnerships, and exploring how we can make a meaningful
0:55
difference. And now we are very proud to
0:58
share that Neuro Diverse Voices is officially Neuro Diverse
1:02
Voices Connect CIC, a registered non for profit company.
1:06
It feels like a big milestone, but the heart of what we do
1:10
remains exactly the same. Everything we do is grounded in
1:14
four core. Values love, support.
1:17
Kindness and connection. We believe in bringing people
1:21
together, listening to lived experience, supporting one
1:24
another, and creating spaces where people feel valued,
1:28
understood, and able to be their true selves.
1:32
And Season 6 really reflects that.
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Throughout this season, we will be hearing from people who bring
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professional expertise, personal experience, advocacy,
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creativity, and research. And as always, we'll be making
1:47
space for the conversations that can help us understand one
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another a little bit better. Because at Neuro Diverse Voices
1:55
Connect, we believe that every voice matters.
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Lived experience matters, and real change begins with
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connection. So wherever you're listening
2:04
from, thank you for joining us on this next chapter.
2:09
Welcome to season 6 of the Neuro Diverse Voices podcast.
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So let's get started. Hi everyone welcome.
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To another season of the Neuro Diverse Voices podcast.
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It's going to be a very exciting one with a great line up of
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guests and I couldn't have wanted to studied in a different
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way because I have Robert Annis with me today.
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He's the Co founder of the neuro charity.
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Neuro stands for neuro diversity, empowerment,
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understanding and resilience organization.
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Welcome, Robert. Thank you Andrew, Thanks for
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having me. What a pleasure to be here and
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be the the first speaker of the season.
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So yeah, thank you. It's a great honour.
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No, thank you. It's just to give everyone a bit
2:52
of background. Robert and I connected at the
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Neuro Diversity conference back in September of, of last year
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and we stayed connected since then.
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And yeah, I'm looking forward to continue staying connected and
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to hear more because at the conference there was barely any
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time for us to, to chat properly.
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So I'm quite curious to learn more about his work and, and
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Nero. OK, Robert.
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So to start with, can you tell us a bit about your journey and
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what has LED you to organizational psychology and
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your neurodiversity work? Yeah, absolutely.
3:30
Thanks for the question. It's it's a big, deep question
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to be asked about who are you and why are you that person?
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So I've always been fascinated by psychology and people.
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So most of my career has been spent working as a coach,
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working with leaders, working with organizational change that
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led me down to organizational psychology.
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And that being a, a real passion.
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It's, I'm genuinely fascinated by.
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It's the sort of thing I will read about at the weekend.
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So it's not merely a job. But then my journey changed
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quite recently, in the last sort of 1218 months.
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Like so many people, when I was diagnosed it really shifted my
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focus. I was diagnosed with autism and
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ADHD and then subsequently several other conditions as
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well, and it really framed my life without me knowing it.
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I didn't get diagnosed until my 40s.
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And so the first four decades of my life, whilst I knew I was
4:30
different and life was a bit of a struggle, I didn't have the
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answer to the question of why. And, and now that I have that,
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it's certainly validated a lot of my life experience answered
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questions. But then honestly, Andrea, it's,
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it's asked more questions as well, right?
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It's made me sort of look at myself and go, well, OK, so
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that's the the reason. But what does it actually mean?
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And I think it it causes you to ask greater questions around
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yourself, the people you connect with, your work.
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And so I think it's something that's quite fascinating because
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it's a reframing of yourself and your humanity and and that leads
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to so many new thoughts. Absolutely, I I completely
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relate to you having had the same late diagnosed experience.
5:23
So yeah, thank you for sharing. And what does neurodiversity
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mean to you personally beyond the professional lens?
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And you just explained that you have lived experience of it.
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But if you could summarize neurodiversity from your
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personal perspective, how would you do it?
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I mean, I also have a biased view here, but everybody does.
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But I see myself as a psychologist.
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That's what I label myself as my day-to-day.
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So I see it through that lens, not purely because I'm
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neurodivergent, but from a scientific point of view, I can
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comprehend the reality of what it is.
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Neurodiversity is a word used to describe the population.
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So all humans are part of that, right?
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The, the population of humans and all our brains, that's
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neurodiversity. In much the same way that we all
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have different eye colour or different hair colour or
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different heights or muscle mass or whatever it may be, our
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genetic code creates differences, right?
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And so in that sense, neurodiversity simply describes
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all those differences between our ears, right?
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The different brains that we have within that grouping,
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though, there's certain differences.
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So somebody who has epilepsy has significant differences in their
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brain to somebody who is autistic, right?
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But it's just the simple numbers of so much being stuffed in our
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skulls. There's going to be differences.
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There's 100 billion neurons in there.
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There's 5 to 10 trillion synapses connecting them.
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So we are going to all be different.
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So neurodiversity is certainly a biological, anatomical
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difference, but it's so much more than that.
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It also impacts how you view the world and therefore who you are,
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right? If you have a brain that
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experiences music as colours, so synesthesia, that's a very
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different world to someone who who hears music.
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It's a very different understanding and therefore you
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have a different life experience.
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And certainly for myself, being autistic, I'm very aware of the
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fact that the way I interact with people is not usually how
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they expect somebody to. So a lot of my interactions are
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either very different or awkward for people, or I mask and I be
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something to benefit them rather than myself.
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And sometimes that's the easier way to do things.
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But the reality is that having a different brain means you are
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different. You are a different person.
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That is not a bad thing. It's simply a different thing.
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The issue is not that the brains are different.
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The issue is simply what system does the person who has that
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brain live in? So if the system is friendly to
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somebody who's neurodivergent, like an autistic person, then it
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may be a good experience. If the system is not friendly,
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then it may not. And that is a lot of the
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reasoning why we started the Neuro charity, to focus on those
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systems and to help them make them more friendly for all neuro
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types. Yeah, absolutely.
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And I'm, I'm, I'm glad you brought this up because I, I
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think in terms of language, there's still some confusion,
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some confusion about using the word neuro diversity and, and,
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and the neuro divergent as well, isn't it?
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Absolutely. So yeah.
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It's we, we are all, they're very powerful words.
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They're very loaded words. People attach a lot of meaning
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to them. And I've certainly met people
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who were autistic, ADHD, et cetera, who don't like being
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termed you're divergent. They see it as a sort of
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negative term. And that's fine.
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I totally respect how anybody wants to be labeled.
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That's absolutely fine. I use them as specific
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psychological terms and that is how they're described in
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psychological publications. So that's, that's why I do it.
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But also, even if we don't necessarily like a label, we do
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need labels in order to communicate, right?
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If we don't have names for things, it's very hard to talk
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about them. Yeah, definitely, definitely.
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And Roberts, I, I, I guess that your late diagnosis has been
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kind of a, a particular moment in, in your life that's kind of
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shaped how neuro came to exist. Absolutely.
10:00
Besides that, I I understand that neuro exists before your
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diagnosis, right? It sort of it came to be at the
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same time. So we would just work on doing
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something. Yeah, yeah.
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Would you? Say that that was the the
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turning point that led you to to confound Neuro.
10:17
Very much, very much so, yeah. But both my wife and I were
10:21
diagnosed and it was just one of those funny things cause I need
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a lot of help with things like filling out forms.
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I cannot do it. I, I get so frustrated, I freak
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out and I, I, I fail, right? I can try as hard as I like.
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I can't do it. My wife is the opposite.
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She's brilliant with things like that.
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And so when I was going through the diagnostic phase of lots of
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form, filling out forms and things, she actually did a lot
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of it for me. So obviously we worked together
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on it, but she was the one actually writing on the forms
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and through that process she sort of looked at herself.
10:55
Well, hold on a minute, this looks very familiar for me as
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well. So whilst we were both diagnosed
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with autism and ADHD, my wife is very much more on the ADHD side
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of things. There's I'm much more on the
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autistic side of things. But it suddenly explains why our
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relationship works so well. Yeah, we, we didn't know it,
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obviously, when we got together almost 20 years ago now.
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But certainly that meant the two of us who are asking the same
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sort of questions of what is this and what does it mean?
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And that led us down the path of recognizing there just isn't
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much support. Right.
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When you get diagnosed, it's very much a here's a piece of
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paper saying you're diagnosed, good luck, and that's about it.
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And so you do what everyone does.
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You go online and you start looking around to see what
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information there is. There's just not much.
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What little dev is is tends to be focused on the under
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eighteens for adults. There's really not much.
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And because there's so little support or even I guess
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recognition, that's why we started neuro, because we
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recognised that the issue wasn't going to be solved by awareness,
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it wasn't going to be solved by a ethical or moral argument.
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It was going to be solved by systems change, right?
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Where we actually look to organisations to change the way
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they think and work. By organisations I mean
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universities, businesses, governments, right?
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If we continue with the lens of you must be normal, you must fit
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in, by definition, we're excluding a lot of people,
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technically the majority of people really.
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And so we're trying to shift that lens.
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We're trying to shift it to say actually the value comes from
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the individual, not from the system.
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And that is exactly what Euro is doing.
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It's helping individuals or organizations think differently
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and see the value of the individuals and that the systems
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should support them. And I don't mean that in a sort
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of charitable way, I mean it in a way that it will make the
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system more successful. The very real outcome, and every
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piece of evidence we can find thankfully supports this, is
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that if a business is more inclusive, it generates more
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ideas, it generates more problem solving, it innovates better, in
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other words, becomes more competitive.
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And so this is something that should be done not simply for
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that ethical and moral argument, which is a sound one, but
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because it actually will make organisations more successful.
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And that's a a compelling argument and it's one that we
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have shaped and you're around and we are using to really
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change the the discussion around neurodiversity.
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Yeah, very, very interesting because you know, thinking about
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the the inclusion part and the and the moral side of it, I
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think we we do. But in terms of generating more
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business and and making workplaces better, we do think
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about it. But yeah, I had never had that
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that thought in terms of at least generating revenue because
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then you will have more problem solving people.
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And so, yeah, that's very interesting.
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It's it's amazing. I love learning with all of my
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guests. And Robert do.
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You have any example without naming any clients of course,
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that's that you may work with, but any success case of of
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impact that Nero S has? On yeah, yeah, absolutely.
14:30
And it you use a really good terminology there.
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Clients. When we created Neuro, it was
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with a intentional focus on not running it like a charity.
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When we went to the Charity Commission to get approved to be
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a charity, it was a real struggle because they didn't
14:47
recognise this as a charity. Because we don't want to operate
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like a charity, we don't want to just raise awareness, right?
14:54
We want to make change, we want to shift society.
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That's very much the intention. And so we've built it with
15:00
products and services. So there's actually products
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that we can go to clients and say you can use this product and
15:06
it will help you change, it will make you more successful, right?
15:09
And so, yes, we call them clients for exactly that reason,
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because we think businesses respond better to that more
15:17
client relationship than just a charity.
15:20
Donate some money rather no, we're actually going to help you
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change, right. But yes, some of the clients I,
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I would mention we work with, I'll just pick some different
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ones. I don't want to just pick like
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businesses. I'll give you some some fun
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ones. We work with the Crompton club,
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that's Grace Compton. She is a wonderful young lady.
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She's a rugby player, she played for Team Great Britain in the
15:45
Olympics, so very successful and she coaches young girls in
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rugby. And so we sat down with her and
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we assessed her company, helped her understand how to make it
15:59
more neuro divergent friendly. So she now, for example, knows
16:03
to send out instructions to the kids before they turn up for
16:09
practice, so they have time to repair and know what they need
16:11
to bring. And it's more calming for them,
16:14
right? She runs drills and exercises in
16:16
certain ways that are more neuro divergent friendly and so it's
16:20
actually more successful for all of them, but it just makes it
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easier for those who might struggle otherwise and so that's
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really revolutionised her approach.
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We've done some sort of work with University of Westminster
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and University of Manchester. They've been really excited by
16:37
the higher education courseware that we built for them, which
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helps their students actually deliver their final year
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project, and it's focused around assessing the university.
16:49
So these students actually get to go and interview faculty.
16:53
They do surveys of students, they look at the policies and
16:56
procedures and through the sort of logic engine that we've built
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as part of our accreditation, they use that logic engine to
17:05
comprehend what works and what doesn't work in the university.
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And then they create the sort of steps the university could take.
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And so those students then leave university and they go to a, a
17:15
job interview somewhere and they get to say, I helped change a
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university, I changed their policies and procedures.
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I've worked with the charity, I've worked with businesses I
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and it's, it's fantastic. It's exciting because we're
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helping the universities with free assessments effectively and
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we're helping these students have a better life whilst also
17:35
all of them learning about your diversity and your own
17:37
inclusion. And what we take from all this
17:41
is there's different ways of working with different
17:43
organisations, right? We work differently with Lloyds
17:46
of London than we would to University of Manchester, to
17:49
Grace Compton and, and the girl she's coaching, right?
17:52
But all of these things contribute to the overall change
17:57
we're trying to achieve. And so it is really exciting to
18:00
work with all these different clients and, and see the things
18:03
we can do. And yeah, it's, it's, it seemed
18:07
almost limitless what we could achieve with this.
18:10
The main thing that we're we're seeing though, is the shift away
18:14
from neuroinclusion for the sake of good to actually the benefits
18:20
that the organisations are seeing.
18:22
And that's now driving why they're looking to do it,
18:25
because they want the benefits. They want to attract better
18:29
talent. They want to solve problems
18:32
faster, those kinds of things. Actual, real changes in the way
18:36
that they they work is bringing them massive benefits, which is
18:40
it's very exciting. Yeah, it's it's brilliant.
18:42
It's fantastic and it must be very rewarding as well to to.
18:46
See all Yeah. Change happening?
18:48
Absolutely. So because you Nero moves from
18:55
awareness to measure capability. So what do you think is
19:01
currently broken with the current approach to neuro
19:04
inclusion overall? Gosh, too much.
19:10
Could could we turn around and say what isn't broken?
19:14
I think, I think the approach is completely wrong because if you
19:20
go to anybody, any individual, and you say to them, what do you
19:26
need to be more successful? What are you struggling with,
19:29
right? Which is kind of the normal
19:31
approach, right? What they're really saying is,
19:34
look, we know you're broken. What can we do to give you
19:39
something to either shut you up or, or, or make you not make it
19:44
an issue, right? And what you're really doing is
19:48
saying to an individual, we'd like you to be shameful.
19:51
We'd like you to sort of put your hand up and go, yeah, I'm
19:52
broken. Could you get me some headphones
19:54
or I need a quiet room to go and sit in because I'm different to
19:59
everyone else, right? That's not inclusion.
20:03
That's saying to somebody you're different and therefore you need
20:06
to be treated differently, right?
20:08
I don't see that as a successful end game at all.
20:13
We should be looking at individuals and saying they may
20:16
be different, they may have some different needs, but everyone
20:19
does. Right, When I'm in London and
20:22
I'm on the Tube, there's some people who walk up the
20:25
escalator, There's a majority who stand still on the
20:28
escalator. Most of those aren't disabled or
20:31
have walking difficulties. It's just more comfortable just
20:34
to stand, let the escalator do the work, right?
20:38
The point is, we all need things to help us.
20:41
We all make use of certain tools, whether it be driving a
20:45
car rather than walking or using an escalator, right?
20:48
Somebody's autistic can do some things that a typical person
20:53
person can't do. There's some things that they
20:55
can't, right? It's not that anyone is better,
20:58
but it's also not that anyone's worse, right?
21:02
And so I, I think the entire approach at the moment of, of
21:07
finding what the issues are and trying to give someone a fidget
21:10
spinner or whatever other thing it is, is kind of the wrong
21:14
approach. I think it should be more round.
21:17
OK, great. How do we help you be
21:19
successful, right? And I think that's more of the
21:22
story. The problem with the current
21:25
approach is that it, it breeds some of the wrong behaviours,
21:28
right? We end up with charities all
21:31
around the world trying to help the neurodiverse population, the
21:35
neurodivergent people, and the main focus is raising awareness.
21:41
I, I don't really know how that necessarily helps.
21:45
Pretty much everyone at this point has at least heard of
21:48
autism, right? I don't think awareness is, is
21:51
necessarily what we need. It needs to be more a case of
21:55
doing something much, much more difficult.
21:58
Human beings are genetically coded, like all animals, to
22:02
value things that are the same 'cause it makes people feel
22:05
safe, right? If you're like me, it means I'm
22:08
safe here, right? If you're not like me, I should
22:11
be worried. What that does though is it
22:14
weaponises difference and we call it we need to raise
22:20
awareness. What we really mean is we are
22:24
standardising everything. Things should be the same and
22:29
that makes it difficult for everyone, right?
22:32
For the parent who didn't sleep last night because their kid was
22:36
up all night, to the woman who's perimenopausal, to somebody
22:42
who's got diabetes, to whatever it might be.
22:45
Anyone who exhibits some sort of difference is going to struggle,
22:49
right? And it affects everybody.
22:52
It's something like one in six people will be disabled at some
22:56
point in their lives, right? Could have broken a leg or
22:59
something like that, right So at that moment everyone suddenly
23:02
goes, oh, I see why we have lifts, right, because I can't
23:06
get up the stairs. And it's it's this recognition
23:09
that if we build a more into society, it will value
23:13
everybody. It will empower and provide
23:17
benefit to each person. Maybe not immediately, but at
23:20
some point. And I think that's where we're
23:23
getting the treatment of neurodivergency wrong, that we
23:27
see it as something to there is a simple solution like a set of
23:32
headphones or a quiet room or whatever it might be.
23:35
I think it's more of a societal shift that we need to achieve.
23:39
And that's why we're focusing on the individual focus rather than
23:44
the system and saying no, that the system needs to change to
23:47
support the individual rather than individual needs to change
23:50
to fit into the system. Yeah.
23:53
Yeah. That's apologies for the rant
23:56
theft. Sorry, no, no.
23:57
No, no, no, that's, you know, when you're passionate about
24:00
something, it's only normal. That's that you rant.
24:03
So in in terms of so is this what the neuro standard is
24:08
about? Yeah, very much.
24:11
Explain what the neuro standard is.
24:13
Yeah, so we recognised early on more on things we had to have
24:17
was an accreditation. There has to be something and we
24:20
had to do it differently to the other organisations.
24:23
Nearly everyone else out there is doing and this is no
24:26
disrespect to anybody. It's not a judgement, of course,
24:30
doing something on the lines of a sort of pay to play model,
24:33
right? And that's based around
24:34
awareness. It's sort of like a the normal
24:37
sort of charitable thinking really of we want you to support
24:41
a charity to show that you support a certain cause.
24:44
The way you do that is by making a donation to us.
24:47
In return we'll give you a badge you can put on your website and
24:50
say we support this 'cause right, lovely.
24:53
No problems with it at all, right?
24:54
It, it does help raise awareness a bit, but it doesn't
24:57
necessarily change much, right? It doesn't say that that company
25:01
or individual has to change the way they do anything, right?
25:04
And and that doesn't matter what we want to achieve, we want to
25:07
achieve that societal change that I mentioned.
25:10
And so for that to occur, we've got to ask for more.
25:14
So the way the accreditation works, the standard, as we call
25:17
it, the neuro standard is that we look at an organization and
25:23
we run a diagnostic. And from that diagnostic, we get
25:26
a report. And effectively that report then
25:28
provides an assessment saying this is where you're really
25:31
successful at being neuro inclusive.
25:33
These are the areas where you're not, we invite you,
25:37
unsurprisingly, to make an investment in yourself to fix
25:41
those areas, right? So it could be in a company,
25:44
perhaps their, their interviewing process is just
25:47
full of forms. There's hundreds of forms and
25:50
some with ADHD just cannot deal with it.
25:52
And so they never even get to the interview process right.
25:56
We highlight that we help them say, hey, this is where you can
25:59
improve that. If they then make those changes,
26:02
if they show they actually care about the topic, right, they
26:06
actually invest, then we would say great, take that evidence,
26:11
submit it. You have shown you are meeting
26:15
the neuro standard. And so we give the accreditation
26:18
to organisations that have met that standard, right?
26:22
And so we hope that will then drive change, right?
26:26
That's what we want to see because we're trying to shift
26:30
the discussion away from we're in you're inclusive or we
26:34
support DEI and we have a web page on our website that says we
26:37
support DEI to actually this is valuable to us.
26:40
We're investing time and money and effort because we're going
26:44
to be more successful as organisations, right?
26:47
And and that's the drive we're trying to do.
26:49
So yes, the standard is very much focused on that approach.
26:52
Yeah, no, that, that sounds fantastic.
26:54
And it's it's a great way of making sure that change happens
26:58
without. Absolutely.
27:00
You see, you know, it's not like I, I know lots of organisations
27:05
around me who do that, but you know, just to know that you're
27:08
inclusive, just to say that you're inclusive or you know,
27:11
that you have an EDI policy is definitely.
27:14
Exactly. Yeah.
27:15
And it's, yeah, it hides another issue, doesn't it, which is
27:19
anyone can say they're inclusive, anyone can say they
27:23
support diversity. And we hope the standard
27:26
actually provides proof. It's it's a signal to people who
27:30
say no, they actually mean it. The hypothetical I try and
27:34
imagine is, I don't know, an 18 year old young lady been at
27:39
school and she's finishing her A level.
27:41
She's looking to her university now at school she's been
27:43
supported, but she's looking at universities.
27:46
How does she know which one of those will support her?
27:48
They've all got the same one page.
27:51
We value intrusion on their website.
27:54
So we hope that she'll look at those universities and one of
27:58
them has the neuro standard on their website or on their
28:01
homepage or whatever it is on their prospectus.
28:04
As she looks at that and goes, well, I know they've invested.
28:07
I know they've made a change, right?
28:10
Or maybe her parents look at it and go, well, we know that
28:12
they've made changes and invested.
28:14
So we want our daughter to go there because she'll be more
28:16
successful. She'll be safer, right?
28:19
And in that sense, we hope, Andrea, we hope the the standard
28:24
actually becomes something that makes that inclusion the
28:28
competitive advantage for organisations that they actually
28:32
see, oh, we need to do this because this is how we'll
28:34
attract the best talent. That's how we'll get the best
28:36
customers, the best suppliers, right.
28:38
In that sense, we really change the conversation around why this
28:42
is done. Yeah.
28:43
They use credibility and and makes whoever is looking for an
28:48
organization for whatever reason, to, to trust and to be
28:52
able to to trust. And the other thought that came
28:55
to mind while while you were just saying all of this is the
28:59
the risk of tokenism, right? Because, you know, very often,
29:03
you know, thinking about the panel or whatever it is, you
29:08
know, you tend to want to make it diverse just just because,
29:11
just to show you're diverse. But that, sadly might not mean
29:15
that you actually. It's, it's a real problem.
29:19
It's, it's a massive issue. I am asked to go on a panel
29:24
almost every week, I think. And whenever I do, there's
29:28
always going to be the head of HR or head of DI or, you know,
29:34
from one of the massive insurance firms or banking firms
29:37
or legal firms or, or I, I don't know, technology firms, whatever
29:41
it is, they've got that massive company name.
29:44
And the big job title was still great on the panel.
29:48
But the reality is if you're a business and your job is to, to,
29:54
to be in that role, there's a lot of pressure on you to not
29:58
change things, right? And also, when was the, I don't
30:03
know, HR bosser? I'm just picking a company name.
30:07
This is just a random company name, right?
30:09
This is not picking out on a company.
30:11
But let's say I don't know Morgan Stanley or, or something,
30:14
right? They are not an expert on autism
30:19
and no one expects them to be, right?
30:21
But we look at these people because they're leaders and say,
30:25
let's put them on the panel and they can tell us what they're
30:27
doing. I think they're the wrong
30:28
people. I think the people on the panel
30:31
should be experts. They should be people at the
30:33
bleeding edge of technology or policy or whatever it may be.
30:38
And they actually come and go, this is what we are seeing or
30:41
this is what we're doing or we're trying, right?
30:44
And then you would have that HR head, hopefully in the audience
30:48
hearing that. At the moment it's very much a
30:51
case of people on these panels are sort of telling each other
30:54
we're doing a great job and I'd like to see that change.
30:59
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So speaking about change, where
31:04
do you see the most meaningful change right now based on your
31:07
experience in the in the past couple of years?
31:13
I think the most meaningful change has to come in the
31:17
business space because they are the ones that everyone sort of
31:23
leads and follows, right? Because they've got the money,
31:26
they invest wherever they go, research will follow, government
31:30
policy will follow. And it's also the the toughest
31:38
nut to crack, right? So if we can do that one, then I
31:41
think that that's the one that has the most meaning.
31:43
And then of course, because it has the majority of the
31:46
population, the vast majority of people work for businesses,
31:50
right? So for me, that's the, the
31:52
biggest focus because at the end of the day, if you turn around
31:55
and have the top 350 companies in the world really taking this
32:02
on, really seeing the value of it and being actually inclusive
32:06
because they see the benefit, then every government in the
32:09
land, every university, every will all follow that because
32:13
it's, that's just the where humanity is moving, right.
32:18
So that's where I would hope that the change really starts.
32:22
Yeah, We we work with schools, universities, private
32:26
enterprise, anyone who wants to work with us.
32:30
But if we want to see societal change, I think it's got to
32:33
really, really happen in the business world.
32:35
Yeah, because they are the ones with the reputation, with the
32:38
with the visibility, right. So, you know, just Bill Gates
32:41
just came to to mind, you know, just thinking about that.
32:45
He's autistic himself. So when you know people who
32:49
don't know much, you know, knowing that Bill Gates is
32:52
autistic, that will tell them something, you know.
32:55
So it's just a small simple example, but absolutely.
33:01
And in terms of leadership and culture, what are the biggest
33:04
challenges that you think leaders face when trying to
33:09
build neuro inclusive environments?
33:13
Fear, right? If you're a leader, change is
33:18
really, really scary, right? Because if you make the wrong
33:22
decision, it's on your shoulders, right?
33:26
And there's just such a lack of information out there, right?
33:30
I have sat down with professors in this space of, of
33:34
neurodiversity who really are not very well educated because
33:40
the literature out there is just so poor.
33:43
It's just so poorly understood. It's not a lot of it's just not
33:48
comprehended, whether it's the way it's looked at in scientific
33:52
literature or in government policy or anything like that.
33:57
It's it's not well understood. Most of it is around either all
34:03
the researchers for under eighteens, like children don't
34:06
age, I think seems to be the assumption, or it's about how do
34:13
we do reasonable adjustments, right?
34:15
And that seems to be the two sort of main areas of focus for
34:19
literature and research. Whereas the reality is it's a
34:24
significant amount of the population.
34:27
The UK government says it's something like up to 15%, which
34:31
is a decent number of people. You know, that's more than a
34:36
billion people around the planet, a lot of people.
34:39
And so I think leaders lack that information.
34:43
And then they also, so they lack, they have fear, they also
34:47
lack the information of what to do, right?
34:50
And so that's where we're coming in with neuro and turning around
34:53
and saying, OK, we get that you're scared of making a
34:56
mistake and doing the wrong thing.
34:58
So here actually is what you can do.
34:59
Here's practical guides about how to run your company.
35:02
Here's how you build in your inclusive culture.
35:05
Here's a strategy that will deliver that for you, right?
35:08
And we, we provide all of these things because leaders don't
35:15
know, no one's taught them how to do this because no one's
35:18
really done it yet, right? And that's where we're trying
35:22
to, to make that a possibility. We're trying to make that happen
35:25
because I think that's the the biggest blocker for leaders is
35:28
they don't really know how to do it.
35:31
So it's, it's kind of a, a huge opportunity, I think.
35:35
And I'm really hoping that the next 12 months really starts to
35:41
see that change and I believe five years from now that
35:46
organisations that aren't neuro inclusive will be organisations
35:49
that are struggling, if not failing.
35:52
Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't be surprised.
35:57
And we were. We were talking about tokenism,
35:58
for example. How do you think you can move
36:03
from good intentions to real accountability?
36:11
I think, I think it's that I think you've kind of in the
36:15
question, answered the question. I think human beings don't
36:19
deserve good intentions. They deserve accountability,
36:23
right? I, I think that we should be
36:26
expecting based upon the the last question, as that advances,
36:30
as evolves, as leaders get the information and learn what they
36:33
can do, we should be turning around and holding them
36:35
accountable and saying good intentions are not enough and
36:38
they never have been, right. Good intentions are a good way
36:41
of not doing anything. Let's be honest about it.
36:45
And we can say that when we look at everything from sexism and
36:47
racism, racism to yes, neurointructivity.
36:53
So I, I think yes, we should, we are at the point, I believe,
36:56
where we should be turning around and saying to leaders of,
36:59
of whatever institution we're referring to and saying, why is
37:03
this something that you're not doing?
37:04
Why are you not looking at this? Right?
37:07
Because at the end of the day, if you want to have the most
37:11
successful racing driver of all time, you go to Lewis Hamilton,
37:17
right? ADHD, if you want the most
37:20
successful or one of the most successful players and women's
37:24
rugby today, you go to Ellie Kildun.
37:26
ADHD, right? You mentioned Bill Gates, so the
37:29
the list can go on. And I'm not saying they're all
37:31
good people. There's good and bad out there,
37:33
not mentioning Elon Musk. But the reality is this variety,
37:42
the difference in our brains, should be celebrated because
37:45
some of those differences are miraculous.
37:48
They give unbelievably amazing things to be wrong.
37:51
They give negatives as well, right?
37:54
When I'm at my smartest, I am really, really good.
37:57
The other day I got up at 3:00 in the morning and worked till
37:59
10:00 at night, right? That's a hell of a productivity,
38:02
you know, for the day. But at the same time, sometimes
38:05
I suffer from raging depression, right?
38:08
We all have brains that can do lots of different things.
38:12
We should be building organisations that recognise
38:14
that and value it right. And organisations shouldn't need
38:19
to be accountable, they should be excited by it.
38:22
But if they won't be, then yes, we should hold them accountable.
38:25
Yeah, definitely, definitely. OK.
38:28
And in terms of the your brother vision, so where do you see?
38:32
Well, you actually answered this.
38:35
Well, not not exactly, but yeah, talking about the next 5 to 10
38:42
years. Sorry, this is my ADHD right
38:44
now. It's quite right getting blank.
38:48
So in the next 5 to 10 years, how do you see the neuro, the
38:51
neuro diversity movement heading to?
38:56
Where do I think it will go? Where do I want it to go?
38:59
Well, do you've made different questions.
39:00
Because they will be different. Yeah, where do I want it to go?
39:04
I would like Neuro Charity to have a legacy unlike any other
39:09
charity. I would like it to be defunct.
39:12
I would like it to be shuttered up 10 years from now, right?
39:16
That would mean it's really achieved its goals.
39:19
We didn't create this with the intention it runs forever.
39:22
We're running it like a business because that gives it strategic
39:26
meaning. It means we're trying to achieve
39:28
a mission and that mission has an ending, right?
39:31
And I think unless we do that, you get stuck in that terrible
39:35
world of just raising awareness, which I don't see a massive
39:38
amount of value in, as I've already said.
39:42
But if I take off my, my potential dreaming hat, where do
39:47
I see it going? At the very least, I think that
39:53
we're going to start valuing different neurotypes a lot more.
39:57
And the way that will occur is it will start happening more
40:00
openly and. I know this will likely happen
40:05
because it's already starting to occur.
40:07
There's a phrase that is said that most neurodivergent people
40:11
can't stand. And I I totally get that.
40:14
But at the same time, it has value because it shows
40:18
something. And that phrase, sorry, everyone
40:21
who's neurodivergent and listening, that phrase is, well,
40:24
we're all a bit neurodivergent, aren't we?
40:28
Yeah, Now it's insulting to someone who's struggled with
40:31
autism all their life or something.
40:33
Totally get that. Agree with you.
40:35
Sure, I am on board with that. But what it says is people are
40:41
starting to see value in being neurodiversion.
40:45
It's not simply seen as, oh, that person needs headphones and
40:48
put it in the corner. People are seeing value and
40:52
saying, oh, maybe I'm a bit autistic, or maybe I'm a bit
40:54
ADHD or I'm a bit dyslexic or whatever, because they see that
40:58
actually society's starting to value some of the skills
41:01
associated with that. That is a massive shift.
41:07
If you had said 3040 years ago, or maybe I'm have a bit of
41:11
Asperger's, no one's ever would have said that, right?
41:14
It wouldn't have happened, right?
41:16
So that shift is really, really interesting and it is indicative
41:21
that things are shifting very slightly.
41:24
Yeah, I think at this point it's also a question of identity as
41:29
well. You know, like in my case, for
41:33
example, I've done both assessments, I've got the ADHD
41:37
diagnosis, but I also see a lot of autistic traits in myself.
41:43
And I didn't meet the, the threshold, but I do understand
41:46
that I do have and I recognize that I do have those autistic
41:49
traits. And I think it's important for
41:51
me to, to be aware of, of those. But then I think in my point of
41:56
view, it can become a bit dangerous as well when everyone
42:01
is just self identifying. And to me personally, I think
42:05
science plays a very important role because I somehow I needed
42:11
to have the diagnosis or at least to be assessed.
42:15
But I know that it's not the same for, for, for everyone.
42:20
And I also wanted to, I wanted to ask as well about your point
42:23
of raising awareness because it's actually interesting.
42:25
It's the first time I hear someone with that, with, with
42:28
that point of view. And it makes, it makes a lot of
42:31
sense. But it's, it's something that
42:34
I've been doing for the past two years.
42:36
And you know, it's, it's one of with this broadcast and, and how
42:41
neurologger's voices connect is, is kind of developing.
42:46
But don't you think that having society and those around us
42:51
understanding what what it, it's not just being aware, but
42:55
understanding some of the the needs and, and and how different
43:01
brains work is important? I think it is, but it's not
43:06
often done very well or not done that way.
43:11
I'm very aware. I'm the way I communicate is I
43:18
tend to court controversy. I like the inflammatory remarks.
43:22
I like the debate. I like the excitement that comes
43:25
with it, right. So I'm probably I push too hard
43:30
on these things. But your point is, is, is
43:35
absolutely valid. It's not that awareness isn't
43:38
needed. I think it's a question of how
43:41
is it done, right. I'll give you as an example,
43:48
right. The the biggest autism charity
43:51
in the UK is what, the National Autism Society, right?
43:55
Yeah. They still were formed in 1962,
44:00
I believe. So that's 64 years they've been
44:04
running, right. And their main focus as you go
44:06
to the website is, is raising awareness.
44:09
Yeah, I'm just not 100% sure that the best way to help the
44:16
population is for six days, six decades of raising awareness.
44:22
At some point, I would turn around and go, yes, that is
44:25
needed, but we need to do more than that, right?
44:28
Because one of the big questions has to be when is awareness
44:34
raising understanding and when is an awareness changing a
44:37
situation right. And I think I want to see a
44:46
situation change for people who knew are divergent.
44:49
I want them to have more opportunities, more recognition
44:54
in society. And that happens when they're
44:59
viewed equally. And I think it's hard to be
45:02
viewed equally when people are raising awareness about you
45:06
because it makes you a special group.
45:07
So it's in my head, it's a little contradictory, but I,
45:13
again, I'm not necessarily being negative about what the people
45:16
are doing. I think their heart's in the
45:18
right place. They're trying to do the right
45:19
thing and, and that's wonderful. I, I genuinely applaud it.
45:23
Maybe it's just me that's just not.
45:25
No, no, no, it's I, I find it very, I find it very, very
45:28
interesting. And you know, I think your, your
45:31
thought goes beyond the, the awareness, which is also
45:33
something that I, you know, that I'm trying to do, but going more
45:38
well, I'm already doing it. I'm already doing it with
45:40
support, you know, when creating peer support groups and doing
45:43
other activities. We both sat here.
45:45
Yes, exactly. Exactly.
45:46
And you've got the cool hoodie on.
45:48
You see, I'm not wearing one of my neuro tops today.
45:50
I should I should have put it up.
45:53
But I absolutely agree. You know, I think I mentioned
45:56
this at the time of the conference of the Neuro
45:58
Diversity conference that one of one of the first thoughts when I
46:02
had the idea was exactly that, you know, you don't get to the
46:05
age of 18 and. You know.
46:07
You stop having needs and where is even the mental health
46:11
research on on that side because there's there's a focus on
46:16
children. And I'm very glad because I have
46:18
an autistic daughter. But yeah, I think that's where
46:21
also the the parenting perspective comes.
46:24
And I'm thinking about the situation I had a couple of
46:26
weeks ago with my daughter that I went to Oxford on the bus with
46:31
her and she loves sitting on the front of of the bus and playing
46:36
with her soft toys. So on the way there, we got the
46:40
front seats absolutely fine. But on the way back we didn't.
46:43
And she started having a meltdown in the middle of the
46:46
bus because she wanted to go to the front seats.
46:49
And I was trying to explain to her, no, we cannot take people
46:52
away from the seats. And she, it wasn't too long, but
46:56
it was about 10 minutes of crying and kicking on the bus.
46:59
And I think when I when I think about situations like these, I
47:03
think if others are aware. That.
47:06
You know, there are autistic children who have difficulties
47:09
communicating, like my daughter. At least they will understand.
47:13
But I could hear in the back seats a gentleman doing so.
47:19
You know, I think it's more in that sense, but it depends on
47:23
who you are, you know, if you are empathetic, if you, because
47:26
that happened to me seeing other parents with, with a child
47:29
having a meltdown. And yes, it was unpleasant to go
47:34
the whole bus journey with a child shouting and, and crying.
47:40
But I understood and I, I intentionally tried not to look
47:44
at them so that they didn't feel what I sometimes feel when I'm
47:48
in a public space with my daughter having a meltdown.
47:51
So yeah. But I, I, I love your point of
47:53
view. I think it, it, it makes a lot
47:55
of sense. So thank you for.
47:57
Yeah, of course. You're absolutely.
47:59
Right, Yeah. Question is, Andrea, how do you
48:02
get someone from awareness to understanding?
48:04
I think that's kind of the the issue, isn't it?
48:06
Yeah, if you've got the the lived experience as, as the
48:11
phrase we like to use right, then it's a lot easier, right.
48:14
You having your daughter gives you that, that view into that
48:17
world. And as you said, that empathy.
48:21
I'm just not convinced that AI don't know a 5K run to raise
48:27
money is going to create understanding in people.
48:30
And, and that's the, the link I'm missing, right?
48:34
And I, I think I'm totally open to changing my mind to, to
48:38
understanding it's better, but that that's the concern for me,
48:41
not least because what it then does is it gets complacency to
48:47
rear its head because people go, what's the issue?
48:51
You guys raised money for this last month.
48:52
Why are you still talking about this?
48:54
Like, no, no, no, there's actually big changes we need to
48:56
make, right? Whereas a lot of the attitude
49:00
from the government sector, for example, will be turning around
49:04
saying, well, there's these charities doing this work, so we
49:07
don't need to do anything. So I guess it's an interesting
49:11
one of, I guess we need all of these things and that's why
49:16
neuro isn't doing the awareness piece because the NES and and
49:19
other groups are doing it, right.
49:21
NIB, I'm doing all the acronyms, right?
49:23
Neurodiversity in Business. Yeah, all those, they're doing
49:25
that sort of awareness piece, right?
49:29
And so we're just focusing on a different area.
49:30
I guess maybe that's a better way to say it.
49:32
Yeah, and that that's fair enough.
49:33
We cannot all be doing the same thing, right?
49:36
You know, like me, for example. There's there's other send neuro
49:40
diversity advocates or whatever we are called.
49:44
We are doing similar things, but each of us has has their own
49:50
unique. Aspects.
49:51
Like in my case, I want to bring the mental health research my
49:54
connections into into the project and I.
49:58
Want. To, to really have those four
50:00
values of connection and connecting people.
50:03
You you saw the energy at the Neuro Diversity Conference and,
50:07
you know, now I can proudly say that, you know, that was that
50:11
was all me. I think for a while I didn't
50:13
recognize the amazing event I've I've put together, but I know
50:19
that's one of my strengths is to connect people and bringing
50:22
people together. So it's going to be a key part
50:25
of it. And so, yeah, we we all need to
50:28
do, we all have our mission. And of course it used to be
50:31
different. So I'm yeah, no, the fact you
50:33
organized all of that was. Incredible.
50:34
Yeah. It's it's it's it's a legacy to
50:37
your ADHD right there, isn't it? And that's a great example of
50:41
This is why newer diversion people can really matter.
50:43
They can do amazing things like anybody can, right?
50:47
Yeah, absolutely. I think we're all doing our
50:50
different bits. I guess a lot of my early
50:53
journey when I got diagnosed and was getting to this world, I
50:57
kept meeting sort of brick walls and frustrations and maybe
51:02
that's informed some of my approach.
51:04
We went to a conference in London which was a autism and
51:07
ADHD show and they had about 50 stands at this show of people
51:13
exhibiting. And I, we, we went round and we
51:17
found tops out of those sort of 50 or so, the tops five of them
51:23
dealt with that out right. The rest of them were under 18.
51:26
So I just kept saying, but what happens when people grow up?
51:29
Because that's what happens. They grow up, right?
51:32
I spoke to a Oxford professor and I couldn't believe I was
51:37
going to talk to them. And, and I was like, this is
51:39
what we're thinking of doing, you know, could you support us?
51:42
Could, you know, have your name would be amazing.
51:43
And they said, Oh, I only, I'm only interested in under 18.
51:46
So I don't, I don't, I'm like, no, no, I get that.
51:49
But I just wasn't there. And I guess there's just a.
51:56
There's just a gap there and I guess we saw.
51:58
It and that's where we're focusing but as you say there's
52:01
a lot of work to be done so there's lots of space for all of
52:04
us to to do this and hopefully we can partner and work together
52:07
and all make a difference yeah yeah absolutely, absolutely yeah
52:10
yeah and I think when. We when we work together,
52:13
amazing things can happen. So I had that experience.
52:17
So yeah, keep up the good work, OK?
52:21
For any organization listening, what's one thing that you can
52:26
recommend them to start doing tomorrow?
52:30
This. Is why I'd normally come up with
52:32
some silly joke and and laugh it off because I'm English and
52:35
awkward. But I promised myself when I
52:37
thought about this today, I was like, no, I'm going to actually
52:39
just be bold because. This is this is the mission.
52:43
We're trying to achieve, I, I honestly give us a shout.
52:47
I think organisations should be looking at the neuro standard,
52:53
should be looking at the, the products we're offering because
52:56
we're genuinely trying to help organisations to be more
52:59
successful and through that help everyone, but particularly the
53:06
neurodivergent community. And in that way, we'll make
53:10
society better for literally everyone and for what we charge.
53:17
My God, we, we are so cheap compared to some of the other
53:20
things you you can do, but we are generally trying to make a
53:24
change in the world. So yeah, I, it's a terribly
53:28
egotistical and not particularly humble thing to say.
53:31
And I feel very awkward doing it.
53:33
But I would say go to neurocharity.org and have a look
53:37
what we do, reach out, ask questions.
53:40
We've got a phenomenal resource on there called the library.
53:44
And if you want to learn about neurodiversity, if you want to
53:48
know what autism is, right, it's all in there.
53:51
It's humongous resource. If you are a parent and you've
53:54
just had a kid diagnosed, there's a practical guide on
53:57
there of what you can do. If you are a manager, there's a
54:00
practical guide on there of, oh, I've got ADHD people.
54:04
There's tools and templates if you need to, I don't know, run a
54:07
meeting with newer diversion people in it.
54:09
There's a template of how to run that meeting, right.
54:13
So we've built a massive resource on that.
54:15
But yeah, I'm, I'm just hoping that through you, Andrea, and
54:18
with other people that we're talking to, we can just keep
54:22
slowly growing and, and making this impact.
54:24
I mean, the, the charity was registered just short of a month
54:28
ago now. We've already got half a dozen
54:30
volunteers. So I'm really hopeful.
54:33
We're trying very hard to make a difference.
54:35
And yeah, fingers are crossed, and my fingers are crossed for
54:39
you as well. And people who are listening,
54:41
you know what to do and I'm thinking about thank you.
54:45
I will link, I will link the websites and the, the, the link
54:49
to the resources. Thank you very much indeed.
54:51
And. Now thinking about.
54:53
Neuro divergent individuals, Any advice you would give to them
54:56
when navigating systems, thinking about looking for a job
55:02
or within an organization, What would you tell them?
55:07
Yeah, I mean. As we grow, I would, I'd love to
55:10
be able to say look for organisations that have the the
55:13
neuro standard, right? That that's my dream.
55:15
I'm hoping that that will become something that somebody's
55:19
autistic can look out for. I mean, a fantasy would be you
55:22
get diagnosed, you get given a pack and in it says look for
55:26
companies with this logo, right? That would be awesome.
55:31
The first thing I would just say for anyone who gets diagnosed
55:34
is. Look in the mirror and forgive
55:39
yourself a little. Bit you've probably experienced
55:40
a lot of frustration in your life and you've been struggling.
55:44
It's fine, right? We all struggle, everyone.
55:48
You're divergent or not right, but just comprehend a little.
55:54
Bit of of what it's. Meant for you to get to this
55:56
point to have achieved what you you have achieved and and where
55:58
you are right. Don't lose sight of that.
56:02
I think it's then also starting to learn your strengths and
56:05
weaknesses. Just as Andrea was saying,
56:08
you'll learn what works for you and what doesn't as you're
56:11
searching for jobs and things you'll learn you can't fill out
56:15
1000 forms or you really struggle with interviews and
56:18
things like that. There's some very good laws in
56:20
place now that say if you are, you know, Divergent that you can
56:24
get extra help, right? You, you can request extra help
56:27
as you go through the, the interview process and
56:29
application process. So I think those are really
56:33
helpful. I would also suggest reaching
56:36
out to networks and connecting with people, right?
56:39
It's hugely valuable to have your voice heard and to hear
56:44
others having similar experiences.
56:47
And there's lots of ways you can get to those kinds of networks.
56:50
There's lots of them throughout the UK and and around the world,
56:54
and don't be afraid to ask for help, right?
56:57
Feel free to reach out. We do everything from coaching
56:59
and mentoring. We've got loads of resources on
57:01
the website yeah. Don't feel alone because you're
57:05
not every struggle you're going through.
57:08
It may be feeling very unique and personal to you, but I
57:13
promise you, everyone else has gone through something like it
57:17
and and they've got through it, so there's absolutely no reason
57:20
why you can't either. Yeah, very important.
57:23
And I speak. From my.
57:24
Own experience I think I I have become a better person and I
57:29
found my purpose by, you know, starting connecting with with
57:33
other parents and other neuro levergens people as well.
57:36
So yeah, that's wonderful. Thank you for.
57:39
All of the. Great advice.
57:42
So now moving on to your inner journey.
57:45
I think I know the answer to this one.
57:47
Who is the biggest support on your journey?
57:51
Yeah, that's very easy, my wife. She has got me through
57:56
everything in my life. She's phenomenal.
57:59
Yeah. But there's really nothing more
58:01
to add than that. She's she's the most amazing
58:04
human being I've ever met. Yeah.
58:06
And I I would like to. Add to that and say hi to
58:09
Melanie because I've met her at the conference as well and she's
58:13
she's definitely Melissa. Melissa, sorry.
58:16
No, that's fine. I do you know my daughter is.
58:18
Melody. So, OK, I yeah, I.
58:21
I thought, yeah. Sorry, but she's she's the
58:24
beauty and the brains of the. Outfit She's she's indeed
58:29
lovely. And.
58:31
Do you do? How do you treat yourself with
58:34
regards to your well-being due to any activities, any hobbies?
58:40
Not much. So one of the common conditions
58:46
you hear about is monotropism in autism, which is an obscene
58:50
focus on something. So historically, mine has always
58:53
been sharks and cars. And so I can talk about sharks
58:57
and cars for years, but for the last 12 months it's been Euro.
59:03
You know, we, we've built an entire ecosystem, the two of us
59:08
in the last 12 months. It's, it's a suite of products.
59:10
There's the library, there's 30 training courses, there's, it's,
59:15
it's immense. And so it's, it's been that with
59:19
regards to my well-being, as I mentioned, I, I suffer from
59:22
depression and anxiety and it, it, it goes up and down.
59:26
I have good days and bad days. So my well-being is, is, is
59:30
mixed. And I, I, I say that not for
59:34
sympathy. I say hopefully for those
59:37
listening who are thinking about their own well-being and it's,
59:40
it's OK to have good days and bad days.
59:43
It's OK to struggle a bit and to be honest with yourself and and
59:46
to recognise that absolutely and you also.
59:49
Don't really need to have a hobby.
59:52
I think our passions are very much part of our well-being.
59:56
So whatever you're doing with neuro now, it's what makes you,
1:00:01
you know, keep going and makes you happy.
1:00:02
So that's the most important thing.
1:00:05
And who? Would you say is your biggest?
1:00:07
Inspiration. So I've always had one
1:00:13
inspiration for my entire life. I'm not even sure I absolutely
1:00:18
know the origin of this other than maybe not identifying with
1:00:23
standard stereotypical things because of I I've always felt
1:00:27
different. But my who I look up to most are
1:00:32
women. It's always been women.
1:00:34
I've always, my heroes have always been like Captain Marvel
1:00:40
and Wonder Woman and, and, and things like that.
1:00:43
So it's it's always been like that.
1:00:47
So for me it's if. Women are not least because they
1:00:50
are the most mistreated, most disrespected group in in the
1:00:58
history of humanity. And yet they are still the ones
1:01:02
we look to when we think of kindness and love, which is,
1:01:05
when you think about it, staggering to be treated that
1:01:08
way. But still, that's the main
1:01:10
response for women. So I, I find great confidence
1:01:15
and comfort from the fact that women simply exist.
1:01:21
They manage to achieve what they achieve despite the difficulties
1:01:24
and I I find that immeasurably. Inspirational.
1:01:29
Yeah, that's amazing to have that.
1:01:31
Recognition because it's it's rare.
1:01:35
Yes, I do, yeah. Yeah.
1:01:38
Yeah, Shouldn't be laughing. It's actually sad.
1:01:41
Yeah. So now speaking about
1:01:44
superheroes, who, if you could be a superhero or have a
1:01:49
superpower, who or what would that be?
1:01:51
And how would you make the world more, you know, inclusive?
1:01:55
This this is a very specific one.
1:01:58
So get ready for this one. So I mentioned at the very
1:02:01
beginning, I have multiple different conditions thanks to
1:02:04
the, the, the autism and so on. One of the, the many is I have
1:02:10
severe dysfunctional autobiographic memory.
1:02:14
So I don't have much in the way of past memories.
1:02:18
So I don't remember holidays, I don't remember my childhood,
1:02:22
stuff like that. I, I tend to not remember
1:02:25
experiences at all. For example, I know I've met
1:02:28
Andrea, I'm well aware we've met.
1:02:31
I don't remember the experience. I need to go back in sort of
1:02:35
LinkedIn and emails and things like that to, to do that.
1:02:39
And that's the same with almost all interactions.
1:02:41
So I really struggle much more than the average person just in
1:02:46
normal interactions. So I obviously I'm trying to do
1:02:49
sales all the time at the moment, despite being a terrible
1:02:51
salesperson because I'm trying to build connections and get
1:02:54
clients from your own and, and, you know, do small things like
1:02:57
change the world. But because I don't remember
1:03:00
people, it's very, very hard. So the superpower I'd like, and
1:03:03
it's extremely selfish. I'd like to remember I'd, I'd
1:03:07
like to remember our wedding. I'd like to remember things I've
1:03:11
done with my wife. I'd like to have the experience
1:03:14
of, of, of remembering my past. I.
1:03:17
Guess that that would be pretty. Amazing.
1:03:20
I don't. I don't find that.
1:03:21
Selfish. I don't find that.
1:03:23
Selfish at all because it will help you in in in many ways.
1:03:28
Like you know, remembering clients for example to make them
1:03:31
would make life a lot easier. Exactly.
1:03:34
There's. Nothing like walking.
1:03:35
Into a doctor's room and then going tell me about the
1:03:37
operations you have or tell me about what you're allergic to or
1:03:40
tell me you know. No, I don't remember anything's
1:03:43
happened. So any questions you have in the
1:03:44
past, good luck. Unless Melissa's there and she
1:03:47
remembers it's. It's not not too easy.
1:03:50
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's.
1:03:52
Well, I. Think the positive side of it is
1:03:54
that hopefully you will not remember negative experiences as
1:03:58
well. Although yeah, I don't know.
1:04:03
It's, it's a, it's a difficult 1, isn't it?
1:04:06
If only it was so, but. Yeah, some of those seem to
1:04:08
stick around. But anyway, yeah.
1:04:12
And now I got lost. Sorry, music.
1:04:16
No, no, no music. Is there any song that you would
1:04:24
say captures your journey until now?
1:04:26
Or any favorite song? So I was thinking about this
1:04:29
before the the. Only one I could come up with
1:04:31
was I Am A Rock by Simon and Garfunkel, because when I was
1:04:36
young and I was manically depressed, I also went through
1:04:41
an unfortunate phase of, of having psychosis and things like
1:04:45
that. So I went through some very bad
1:04:47
times and I am a Rock was a, a song by someone girlfriend
1:04:51
called that I played all the time because it it meant I'm
1:04:54
alone, right? I was, I was, I was a very, very
1:04:57
lonely person at the time. And so it was soothing was the
1:05:02
wrong word. It was, I guess in some ways it
1:05:05
helped me dig a darker hole for myself.
1:05:07
There was now I actually really enjoyed the song.
1:05:12
I found it a song about strength, so that that's been
1:05:16
quite a. A journey, that song has been
1:05:20
with me through my life. And it's the meaning of it has
1:05:22
changed. So I guess that would be a good
1:05:23
example. Yeah, I need to listen to it I.
1:05:26
I'm I'm sure I know it, I just, I'm not connecting with it at
1:05:30
the moment. But yeah, I'll also link it on
1:05:33
on the episode description. And if you could go back in
1:05:36
time, what would you tell your younger self it's.
1:05:41
Going to get better. But it's going to take a while.
1:05:48
I probably. Honestly, I probably tell
1:05:49
myself. About my autism, because it
1:05:54
would have made life a lot easier to know why I was so
1:05:57
different and why I was struggled to have social
1:06:01
relationships and, and, and get a job and, and things like that.
1:06:04
It would be nice to have received that validation a lot
1:06:07
earlier in my life. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:06:10
That makes absolute sense. And finally, Robert, if your.
1:06:13
Heart. Had a voice.
1:06:15
What do you think it will tell us?
1:06:18
Well. Gosh, don't give up.
1:06:30
Yeah, I, I we've all battled through lots of things in our
1:06:34
lives. For me, as I said, a depression,
1:06:37
anxiety, psychosis, autism. No memory, no facial
1:06:42
recognition, no ability to imagine.
1:06:48
I have no mind's eye. There's lots of things in here
1:06:53
that don't work. But at the same time, the odds
1:06:59
of me being alive are infinitesimally small.
1:07:02
The odds of one egg and one sperm and two human beings
1:07:07
coming together and. Atoms arranging in just such a
1:07:12
way that I'm. Here is is unimaginably small.
1:07:15
And so whatever difficulties I've had, I'm extremely happy to
1:07:20
to be here and have what I have. So if you're struggling, if
1:07:23
you're autistic or or whatever it may be, don't give up because
1:07:30
you're here and you won the lottery of life.
1:07:33
So I would say try and get the most out of it you can.
1:07:36
Yeah, and look at you. You're a great example.
1:07:39
Of, you know, having gone through all of that, being here,
1:07:42
having just launched a charity and, yeah, being successful and
1:07:48
and happy, I think that that means a lot.
1:07:53
Great. Robert, thank you.
1:07:55
SO. Much it's been a.
1:07:56
Really interesting conversation and I'm very much looking
1:08:00
forward to share it with with with my audience and and I'm
1:08:04
pretty sure we will stay in touch and you know, potentially
1:08:07
collaborate in the future. I'd love to yeah.
1:08:10
And I hope to. See Melissa.
1:08:13
Soon as well, yeah. And if you come to Oxford,
1:08:15
please let me know if I'll go to London.
1:08:17
I will definitely let you know. It would be good too.
1:08:20
Fantastic. Make.
1:08:20
Make. Make.
1:08:22
New memories in first as well as always.
1:08:25
Melissa's there that that. Works.
1:08:30
Yeah, great. Thank you so much.
1:08:32
Great. My pleasure.
1:08:33
Thank you so much for having me and.
1:08:34
Everybody, I hope I'll see you on neurocharity.org sometime
1:08:38
soon. Do reach out and if you've got
1:08:40
any questions, if you think about your organization or you
1:08:44
as an individual, if you want to talk to someone about your
1:08:47
situation or you just want to chat, then reach out and happy
1:08:52
to talk, happy to help. Yeah.
1:08:53
And follow on social media as well.
1:08:55
I will link it to to the social media accounts as well.
1:08:59
Great. Thank you.
1:09:01
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