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Why Just Stories? Why Now? · Just Stories

0:00
Is that good? Sounds good. I'm Rob Brenneman.
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I teach criminal justice and sociology at Goshen
0:16
College. And sitting across from me is my colleague
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Regina Shands Stoltzfus, professor of peace,
0:22
justice, and conflict studies. We've worked down
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the hall from each other for years, and somehow
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we've never asked each other the questions we're
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about to ask today. Like, what brought us to
0:32
studying justice in the first place? What is
0:34
justice, really, beyond the textbook definitions?
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And what does faith have to do with any of it?
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This is Just Stories, a podcast about the places
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where justice and faith intersect and sometimes
0:46
collide. This is our first episode. We figured
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before we invite anyone else to this table, we
0:51
should probably introduce ourselves properly,
0:53
the way we'd want our guests to. Not with titles,
0:56
but with stories. Let's start with the basics.
1:02
Tell me your name, where you are, what you teach,
1:06
and a little quirky interest. My name is Regina
1:10
Shan Stoltfus, and I teach Peace, Justice, and
1:13
Conflict Studies here at Goshen College. One
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thing that I think is an odd interest of mine
1:20
is endlessly watching episodes of Law & Order.
1:25
And I recently found a podcast about Law & Order.
1:29
And one of the things that I've tapped into there
1:31
is a sense of satisfaction when you get to the
1:35
end of all of these weird cases that something
1:37
has moved. It's quirky, but not so quirky given
1:42
where we are and what we're doing and the topic
1:44
of this show. So I'm Robert Brenneman. I teach
1:48
criminal justice and sociology. I have been at
1:51
Goshen College for six years now. Before that,
1:55
I was out east at St. Michael's College. Quirky
1:59
little interest. I like to get around on my bike.
2:01
If possible, 12 months a year, but... Realistically,
2:05
here in northern Indiana, I do it about 11 months
2:08
a year. So I often come to the office a little
2:11
bit sweaty. 11 months out of the year is pretty
2:14
good for northern Indiana. Yeah. Global warming
2:16
probably helps a little bit. So we've been colleagues
2:20
for years. I teach sociology. You teach peace,
2:23
justice, and conflict studies. But we've never
2:26
really sat down to talk about how we ended up
2:29
doing this work. And I have a feeling neither
2:32
of us got here. by accident. Tell me why teaching
2:36
justice is important to you. Yeah, probably the
2:39
simplest answer is there is a lot of injustice.
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And it is actually painful to me a lot of the
2:48
time. And I know that's true for a lot of other
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people. I was raised in a faith tradition and
2:56
in my family to pay attention to those kinds
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of things. But it was sort of the water around
3:05
me. It wasn't that I was a little kid walking
3:07
around thinking about injustice and justice.
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Although there was a time in sixth grade where
3:15
a bunch of us were marching around the school
3:19
building at recess, chanting black power slogans.
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That was probably something that I picked up.
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You know, I was a kid in the 60s. And so picking
3:33
up the kinds of things that were going on around
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me. So I want to balance it. That must have felt
3:38
empowering as a sixth grader to march around
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the school like that. It's hard to imagine that
3:44
happening today. It was kind of fun. And it was
3:47
probably a weird thing to do. But speaking of
3:50
what was going on, I had teachers who became
3:54
teachers in that era. And so as with many of
3:58
our students today, you can sort of see them,
4:02
seeing the world around them, going into a profession
4:05
where they want to make some kind of change and
4:08
feeding messages to us. And so the air around
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me was full of people thinking about these kinds
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of things. And so... And where was this school?
4:18
In Cleveland, Ohio. Born and raised in Cleveland,
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Ohio. Lived there until I came here in the early
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2000s. Okay. When did justice stop being an abstract
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word for you and become a personal question?
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Probably during the 1980s when I became involved
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in the sanctuary movement that was happening
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in the 80s. I happened to be around people who
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had interest in this. I wanted to know more.
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And Cleveland was a sanctuary city at that time.
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Actually seeing people and hearing people's stories
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was part of my growing sense of how nationally,
5:06
internationally things were connected. That sense
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of more people need to know about these things.
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I mean, I did a Witness for Peace visit to Nicaragua
5:19
and Honduras. The whole thing with Witness for
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Peace and groups like that was... Go and witness
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and then come back and tell other people because
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the more people that know about this, the more
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chance we have of shifting the tide. And so that's
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probably the beginning of the concrete movement
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from abstraction to, yeah, this is something
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that I care about, something that I want to be
5:43
involved with. You know, that's interesting because
5:46
as I think about my own journey, it was Central
5:50
America as well. I guess I could go back to my
5:53
childhood and also remember a particular conversation
5:56
between my dad and my uncle. And my uncle was
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talking, it was probably in that same time period,
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but I was just a kid, maybe fifth or sixth grade
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or so. And my uncle was telling my dad, you know,
6:12
the Sandinistas are not actually as evil. As
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the Reagan administration is making them out
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to be, they're actually doing some really good
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things. And that was completely opposed to what
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I was hearing at school. In fact, I was getting
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very strong messages. I went to a very conservative
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Christian school, non -denom, that was adamant
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in teaching us to be good anti -communist Christians.
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And that being anti -communist was... One in
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the same as being a Christian, really. Probably
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about six years later, my brother was living
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and working in Honduras and sending me letters
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and suggestions for things I should be reading
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and watching. to correct some of the misinformation
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we were getting in the United States about what
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was happening in Central America. And when I
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rented on my own, senior in high school, went
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to the video store back in those days, you got
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the VHS tape off the shelf, and they had Romero.
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I watched that movie by myself in the living
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room. Honestly, it changed my world. I suddenly
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started to see the world very differently. And
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justice is such a deep theme in that movie. So
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it strikes me that at different stages in our
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lives that Central America was kind of this touchstone
7:37
of justice because the injustice was so clear,
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obvious, and really horrific. And it strikes
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me then and now the way that you also remember
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the importance of a counter -narrative. There's
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the story that you're told in the media, the
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story that's told by political parties, the stories
8:00
that's told by families, and then there are other
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stories. Learning to discern the truths of people's
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lives from their own lived experience and that
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sort of mind -blowing piece of, yeah, things
8:16
are not as they seem. Yeah, the importance of
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narratives and getting that story is really,
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really important. Stories have been profoundly
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impactful for me. In the late 90s, I spent about
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six years living and working in Central America
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at a time when the gangs, transnational gangs,
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were becoming almost the only topic in the public
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conversation because they were having such an
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impact on urban Central America. And perhaps
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also because they were so easy to hate and so
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easy for... everyone to hate that they had become
9:03
public enemy number one. When I was in graduate
9:06
school, after this time, I'd returned to the
9:10
United States to go to graduate school, and I
9:11
read an article about gang members who were leaving
9:15
the gang to join evangelical Pentecostal churches
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as a pathway out of the gang. And I thought,
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wow, that's curious. I know what these churches
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are like, and they are so different from the
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reality of the gang. I'd like to investigate
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that a little bit. So I had a dissertation and
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I had some connections with people who were working
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with former gang members, helping them transition
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to life outside the gang. And they put me in
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touch with gang members. And eventually I interviewed
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64 former gang members across Guatemala, Honduras,
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and El Salvador. One particular moment when I
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think I was able to see a gang member in a new
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light. Before I went to Central America, I spent
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a lot of time preparing my interview script.
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Fortunately, my dissertation supervisor said,
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make it simple, make it human. Start by asking
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them. How did you end up in a gang? Just a normal
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human question rather than these sort of codified
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questions I had thought I needed to ask. Early
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on, it was probably the third or fourth interview
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I had done. I was interviewing a Honduran ex
10:28
-gang member. And I asked him the same question.
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Tell me how you ended up in a gang. As he was
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telling me his story, a deeply abusive. immediate
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family situation, a really horrible, intolerable
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family situation that caused him to look elsewhere.
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And really, the gang is about looking for home.
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That's why they call each other homies. I mean,
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they are looking for a family, a home that they,
10:53
in many cases, have not really experienced. And
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they're looking for respect. As he was telling
10:58
the story, his voice got quieter and quieter
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and quieter until he sort of bowed his head and
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went silent. And Maybe it shouldn't have surprised
11:08
me, but it took me off guard. I realized he was
11:10
weeping. And I was totally unprepared for this.
11:13
I was ready to protect myself from anger or outbursts
11:17
or bravado or being lied to or something. And
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here was somebody telling such a profound, in
11:23
telling his story, it brought on such emotion
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that I realized I need to pay attention to emotion
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and how emotion shapes. Our story and how emotion
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was shaping pathways into the gang, which eventually
11:38
became a main topic in my book about the gangs.
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It ended up not being the first time X gang member
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broke down when he was telling me his story.
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Sometimes it was because of talking about the
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way they had been hurt, abandoned, abused. And
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sometimes it was when they were talking about
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what they had done to others. And that clearly
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sort of helped me realize, OK, these. people
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are people who are a real full human beings and
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be allowing themselves to open up in front of
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this gringo researcher who in many cases they
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had just met an hour ago. That is such a profound
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story of trust, of breaking down what we were
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talking about before. Here is the image. that
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we present to you. Here's what you should think
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about this. And that realization of common humanity,
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it reminds me of moments in a class that you
12:44
and I both teach at our local jail here. And
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I remember the first time going to the jail to
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interview students who would be in the class.
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And knowing... in one part of my brain that,
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yes, I'm going to meet people, but also knowing
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all of the narratives and hearing the cautions
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of the people who you're going to go teach a
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class in the jail. How are you going to protect
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yourself? You're taking students and all of that.
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And you get there. And within the first day,
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it's sort of like we're all just people trying
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to do a thing together and hearing each other's
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stories, having a common experience. Creating
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a story together, for me, that's one of the most
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powerful parts of that is we begin to create
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a common story. And that is a step towards justice,
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I think. Being willing to listen to someone else's
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story can be a powerful first step towards justice.
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I'm struck by something that you said at the
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beginning of that, leading up to the importance
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of stories. The impression... that you and all
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of us are given about who we're supposed to hate.
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One of the things that's really important to
14:00
understand, and it's something that I work with
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in the classroom and with my students, is understanding
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that how important to the whole project of injustice
14:11
the construction of enemies is. The narrative,
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going back to that, of who these people are and
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why they are our enemies and why you should support
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whatever it is that's going on that's keeping
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them either away from us. Or keeping us safe,
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keeping us safe. Yeah, that because who can argue
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with wanting to be safe? All the better if you
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can construct a narrative and build on that in
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lots of different ways to say, and this is why
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this is OK. The permission for violence, another.
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part of what goes into thinking about how all
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of these really complicated histories and scenarios
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fit together. The complexity of it is taken apart,
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as you've demonstrated, by actually listening
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to people and hearing their stories. Because
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it's so much harder to hate or fear someone when
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you've listened to their story, when you've heard
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their story. Seen them as a whole person. Exactly.
15:17
Exactly. So we both had these moments where justice
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stopped being theoretical and became something
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concrete. But if somebody pressed you right now
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and asked you, well, what actually is justice?
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What kind of answer would you give? For me, the
15:45
simplest answer to that kind of question is justice
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is every being, person or other part of the created
15:55
order, having what they need to survive and not
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just survive, but to flourish. So it's the basics,
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food, shelter, community, family, those kinds
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of things. pushes against that idea that we talked
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about before that, well, that's for some people,
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but some people don't deserve that. So, yeah,
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at its simplest, everybody getting what they
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need. That sounds kind of like shalom or salam.
16:28
Yes. One of the experiences that I had as a young
16:35
person, still college age. was spending a couple
16:38
of years working in refugee camps in Thailand.
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I got there sort of by happenstance. I didn't
16:44
have this grand idea that I'm going to go overseas
16:47
and do great things. An opportunity presented
16:50
itself, and I went to northeast Thailand to work
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for most of my two years there. refugee camp
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filled with about 40 ,000 Laotian refugees who
17:05
were awaiting their fate, hoping to go to a third
17:08
country because they could not go back to Laos.
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My work in that camp was pretty simple and basic.
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I worked in a food kitchen mixing up milk powder
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and helping serve meals, especially to people
17:23
who were severely undernourished, so supplemental
17:26
feeding center. And so I had a lot of time in
17:29
the camp to be with people and to hear stories.
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And I'm just this, you know, 19, 20 year old
17:35
kid learning what I can from people's experiences
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who on the surface seemed dramatically different
17:46
from my own. But as you were saying. listening
17:50
to those stories, listening to the things that
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people were concerned about, especially people
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who were around my age. They wanted a place to
17:57
be. They wanted to be in school. They wanted
18:00
to... They wanted to know what their future was
18:03
going to be. They probably wanted to pass through
18:04
those life stages that would get them to adulthood
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and the respect of an adult. Exactly. And so
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this camp itself was built on an old U .S. Army
18:14
base. And so there was an infrastructure there.
18:17
And there were people who were there for years.
18:19
There were babies born there. People died there.
18:22
And so it was kind of like a little town, but
18:25
this town that was in limbo. Life changing in
18:33
a lot of ways. It was there. You know, I interrupted
18:38
my time in college because I wasn't quite sure
18:41
what I wanted to do. And I didn't come away from
18:45
that experience with a full blown. plan. My experience
18:50
that led me there was being part of a faith community
18:53
where people regularly did overseas work, but
18:57
I didn't necessarily see myself as becoming a
19:00
missionary or becoming a long -term overseas
19:04
worker. In fact, one of the questions that a
19:07
lot of people back stateside had for me was,
19:10
there's a lot of need here in this country. What
19:13
about that? And so it was the beginning of thinking
19:17
along the lines of what does justice look like?
19:20
How does one participate in bringing it about
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if you don't have political aspirations, which
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I did not. It was the start of this growing seed
19:34
for me that I guess the best language I could
19:37
put forward at that time was this. feels really
19:41
important and I want to do more of it. And I
19:44
don't know what that looks like now, but it's
19:50
started me on the way of that. I'm curious, what
19:53
was it like to be an African American in this
19:58
role where your country was kind of responsible
20:02
for what was going on and here you were to help?
20:06
How did people react to you? How did you feel
20:08
about that? It was weird, and it was eye -opening.
20:13
So I was in a part of the country, northeast
20:15
Thailand, where, like I said, U .S. Army base
20:19
had been there before, U .S. fingers all up in
20:22
their business for years. And I think that the
20:27
most contact that locals had with African Americans
20:32
were either GIs or media. So people that they
20:37
had seen in movies or pop stars were the connection
20:40
that people make. I was, especially for children,
20:43
I was oddity extraordinaire. That was one part
20:48
of it. The other part of it was, I talk about
20:53
my faith community and a little bit about my
20:55
family, but my mother especially was steeped
21:01
in black arts. She and those teachers that I
21:06
mentioned before sort of raised me on the literature
21:09
of the Harlem Renaissance. In the Harlem Renaissance,
21:11
the writers and the culture creators in that
21:15
movement were all about, this is what it's like.
21:19
to be a Black person, to be a person descended
21:23
from enslaved people, to be a person that doesn't
21:26
have a country, so to speak. And so those were
21:31
messages and stories and poems and songs that
21:35
I had been raised on from little on up. the kinds
21:41
of connections. So, and it extended beyond the
21:45
people that I was working with in the camp. I
21:47
began to see, for instance, colorism among Asians,
21:51
right? And it's like, that seems familiar to
21:54
me, right? And sort of the distinctions between
21:58
languages that are very close, but we say it
22:02
this way and they say it that way, right? And
22:05
you're thinking, I've heard this before. And
22:07
so those kinds of really important connections,
22:11
again, talking about the common threads of humanity
22:16
that bind us together that we just are urged
22:20
to not notice. even if it's not on purpose. Sometimes,
22:24
lots of times, it's on purpose. Like there's
22:26
something at work that wants us to not look at
22:29
things. But I think also it's human nature to
22:34
sort of say, these are my people and those are
22:37
not. And overcoming that is really, really important.
22:42
But seeing those parallels, which is one of the
22:46
things that makes me really appreciate the long
22:51
arc of history, to sort of see the cycles, to
22:54
sort of see with a view from where we are now
22:56
what's happened in the last 100, 200, 300 years
22:59
that, oh, that pattern looks familiar. I can
23:03
understand more of what's happening now based
23:06
on what has happened in the past. The players
23:08
are different, the places are different, but
23:10
the dynamics are often very, very similar. I
23:19
did want to bring up Before we move on from this
23:21
section, I love that quote. And we were talking
23:25
about justice and what it means. A lot of times
23:30
people tend to think, well -meaning people tend
23:33
to think there's love and there's justice. And
23:36
some people, including some Christians, like
23:38
to think that really what we need to focus on
23:41
is love. If we could just love each other. Justice
23:45
is either not our concern or it's God's concern.
23:49
Justice is somebody else's business. But I love
23:53
that quote. I think it's Cornel West who's credited
23:57
with saying, justice is what love looks like
24:01
in public. And it really kind of reminds us that
24:05
justice is a way of loving at scale, in effect,
24:10
by respecting. Absolutely. Absolutely. What you're
24:38
talking about reminds me of The movement of a
24:43
term that I don't like, and I will explain it
24:47
in a moment, racial reconciliation that happened
24:50
among many churches in this country in the mid
24:55
-90s or so. As you know, I do a lot of work understanding
25:00
racism and educating and organizing. in anti
25:06
-racist movements. And the racial reconciliation
25:09
movement, especially among churches, was exactly
25:13
that. We just need to love each other. We just
25:16
need to be in the same space. We need to go to
25:18
church together. And I'm not belittling those
25:21
things because I was raised in an interracial
25:23
church, and that was part of what formed me.
25:26
But the failure, as I see it, and others as well,
25:31
of those movements which I don't even know if
25:35
anybody's really doing that anymore, was that
25:38
once you start thinking about the structure,
25:42
once you start thinking about the system of the
25:45
institutions, the churches and the mission agencies
25:48
and all of that, that was when all of that love
25:51
stuff just basically went out the window in my
25:55
view. And so there is a part of... justice, that
26:00
means we have to look at systems and structures.
26:03
We have to understand them. We have to investigate
26:06
them. And when they are not working, when they
26:08
are harming people, we need to change them. And
26:12
the reluctance to change structures that were
26:17
working for dominant groups with that we just
26:21
need to love each other message kind of meant
26:24
let's all come together and be the same. Forget
26:28
about all the things that make us different.
26:30
Let's just focus on being together and leave
26:33
all that other stuff out the door. It's not sustainable.
26:36
And those movements, I think that was the failure
26:40
of many of those movements. In the places where
26:43
people were willing to say, okay, we're not going
26:47
to look at structural issues. We're just going
26:49
to hang in there together and love each other.
26:51
Maybe they exist. I do wonder how it's going.
26:56
So just before we move on, reconcile that, if
27:00
you will, maybe that's the wrong term, with the
27:02
beloved community of MLK. He clearly cared about
27:06
justice. Yes. A lot. But he also talked about
27:09
this beloved community. Is there a contradiction
27:11
there or a contrast or how do those come together?
27:14
I don't think that in the way that he was using
27:17
that term that it was contradictory because I
27:21
think that for him. To love is to do justice,
27:26
and to do justice is to think about the ways
27:29
that people are being excluded, harmed, at the
27:32
expense of other people's not being harmed, because
27:35
that's really what's going on. So many people
27:38
who are in positions of social dominance Most
27:45
of those people are not like rubbing their hands
27:48
together and saying, how am I going to hurt someone
27:50
today? Many of them might be unaware of what's
27:53
going on, but perhaps don't sufficiently recognize
27:58
that the way that the system is set up, it rewards
28:01
them for not knowing what's going on. And so
28:06
I think that part of the idea of the beloved
28:10
community is Let's all remove the scales from
28:14
our eyes. Let's face head on what's going on.
28:17
How are we as a community of love and justice
28:20
going to face these hard things together and
28:25
still work at being community with one another
28:28
and still face the injustices that are happening
28:32
in our society? So we've been talking quite a
28:44
bit about the past, bringing it more recently.
28:47
Is there something from the past couple of years,
28:50
an event, a case, something in the news that
28:53
captured the kind of justice question you're
28:57
itching to discuss? So many things, right? One
29:01
of the things that comes to me most clearly,
29:04
especially now that we are at the time of this
29:07
recording in summer months, There are so many
29:11
years when I come back to campus in August preparing
29:18
for my fall classes where I think about the things
29:22
that have happened over the summer. And for several
29:25
years in a row, there were pretty famous cases
29:29
of Black boys and men, unarmed Black boys and
29:34
men being killed by police officers. And so...
29:39
As the mother of black children, those were things
29:42
that I was thinking about, right? But also as
29:45
a professor who teaches about race and violence
29:50
and injustice, how do I put those two parts of
29:54
my heart together and do my job in a way that
29:58
is true, that is... respectful of what I am supposed
30:03
to be doing, but also respects the fact that
30:06
I'm a human being and I have feelings about those
30:13
events that have happened. How do I pull all
30:16
of that together so that for our classroom community
30:22
we can do good work and also understand why we
30:26
are doing this work. Why is it important to understand
30:29
these things? Why is it important to look at
30:31
them? Why is it important to look at the horrible
30:35
things that happen that remind us maybe of the
30:39
horrible things that have happened to people
30:41
that we know and love? How do we do that in a
30:44
way that honors Those real stories, those real
30:47
lives, our real feelings about it, but doesn't
30:50
get us bogged down in only our feelings of sadness
30:57
and anger and rage. Because while that's good
31:02
fuel, it is short -lived fuel. You're speaking
31:06
my language of the importance of emotion in the
31:09
classroom and establishing an emotional climate
31:12
where emotions are not banished. And they ignite
31:18
some of the motivation for what we're doing and
31:22
why we're doing it. But they're also not the
31:25
only thing driving the conversation. It's really
31:28
hard to listen when you're really amped up. And
31:32
I've seen this in the classroom and I've seen
31:33
it. I've seen myself do it. as well, where emotion
31:37
gets in the way of me really listening to what
31:40
a student is saying, because I'm getting really
31:43
nervous or upset or frustrated or irritated by
31:47
what's being said, and I can't listen to what's
31:50
behind it and what's there and respect it. I
31:52
know that one of my, because I teach criminal
31:55
justice and I teach about the criminal justice
31:57
system, I have to teach students about what it
32:00
is and what's working and what's not. And over
32:03
the last couple of years last three years really
32:06
I've been walking alongside a formerly incarcerated
32:10
now reincarcerated friend who struggles with
32:14
addiction and I see the way he has had this long
32:19
relationship with chemical dependency and also
32:23
with an institution prison most of the time doesn't
32:28
really seem to be helping And it is amazing,
32:32
especially here in Indiana, how willing we are
32:36
to pay tens of thousands of dollars to keep someone
32:41
incarcerated for years because of what is obvious
32:48
to everyone. is a chemical dependency. And I'm
32:52
not saying here that we should legalize all drugs
32:56
and stop prosecuting anything related to drugs.
32:59
Of course not. That's a conversation for another
33:02
day. But it's almost, speaking of emotions, kind
33:06
of a letdown to watch the way our criminal justice
33:12
system seems to be a toolbox with... one, maybe
33:18
two tools in it if you count probation. We got
33:22
prison and we got probation. And basically prison
33:25
is a hammer and you got a big hammer 20 years
33:28
and you got a little hammer one year, two years.
33:31
We need more tools than this to address the vast
33:36
and varied forms of security, violence, injustice.
33:42
crime that are out there. And yet we have this
33:45
really impoverished toolkit, which is why I'm
33:48
always telling my students we need more tools
33:50
in our toolkit. And restorative justice is like
33:53
a whole extra set of tools that we can use. They
33:55
don't work everywhere and it's not perfect for
33:57
everything under any circumstance, but it broadens
34:01
the toolkit. And so that has become ever more
34:04
painfully clear as I walk alongside my friend.
34:07
And he sort of returns to the system that clearly
34:12
didn't work the first time. And back he is for
34:15
years for possession. And it just seems, wow,
34:18
I can't believe we keep swinging this hammer.
34:22
It goes back to that grand narrative of there
34:25
are some people, either because of who they are
34:27
or what they do. That we are willing, we as a
34:31
society, are willing to look the other way. And
34:34
the more that we don't know about that, the better
34:38
for the system to keep perpetuating itself. I'm
34:42
glad that you mentioned the cost in there, because
34:44
if people knew the cost of that in terms of finances
34:52
and social costs. That hammer is $40 ,000 a year
34:56
in a cheap state. like Indiana, that's what we're
34:59
spending more than what most people pay to go
35:02
to college for a year. It's really quite unsettling
35:07
when you stop and think about it. When people
35:19
talk about justice today, what do you think gets
35:21
overlooked or undervalued in the conversation?
35:24
And what gets too much attention? Yeah, I think
35:28
that reducing everything to personal choices
35:32
and personal responsibility is, that's the easy
35:36
place to go. And sometimes that's the only place
35:38
we know how to go, right? And I feel this way
35:42
myself, that there are so many parts of this
35:47
that have been going on for so long, and I'm
35:50
just one person. So that's... that sort of self
35:54
-defeating language that I own for myself at
35:57
times, but I know that it's out there. I think
36:00
that gets overlooked because in lots of ways
36:04
that is kind of the easy way out. But when we
36:09
begin to recognize the actual cost to our society,
36:15
maybe it's not touching me yet, but it's eroding
36:20
our society. So we need to look at it, and we
36:23
need more tools, like you were saying, and we
36:26
need to apply those tools in many places along
36:29
the system. And that costs resources as well.
36:33
So I think overlooking how these things fit together,
36:37
because it's complex, because it does feel too
36:41
big. And this, again, is one of the reasons that
36:44
I appreciate historical distance, because we've
36:47
done it before. Like we have, as human beings
36:51
in our various societies across time, have changed
36:55
the trajectory of the very kinds of things that
36:59
we deal with in our own era and in our own time.
37:03
We can learn from the past, at the very least,
37:07
we can learn from the past that it is possible
37:08
to have change. And that can be particularly
37:11
hard for some of my students because it's easy
37:14
to see the problems that are still... obviously
37:17
with us, and harder sometimes to see, well, there
37:20
were some really big problems in the past that
37:23
we don't experience in the same way. If I had
37:27
to answer the same question, what gets overlooked
37:30
and undervalued, the past five years or so, the
37:35
topic of capital punishment has kind of fallen
37:40
off the radar largely. Executions are on the
37:45
rise again, especially in places like Florida.
37:48
And the federal government is doing it again
37:50
after a kind of informal moratorium for a number
37:53
of years, is not really gaining much attention.
37:57
And I know it affects numerically a small number
38:00
of people, but it is quite something for the
38:03
state to name a day and a time and a place and
38:07
a person who will be executed. His life will
38:11
be taken from him or her. on that particular
38:14
day in that particular place. It's quite something.
38:18
And for a while, there was some bipartisan or
38:22
I would say at least ideologically diverse support
38:26
for winding down and putting to rest capital
38:30
punishment in the United States. And it seems
38:33
to have evaporated at least that ideologically
38:36
diverse movement. And I'd like to see that happen
38:41
again at the same time and maybe in a different
38:43
direction. I do think that we have a harder time
38:48
acknowledging good policing when it happens.
38:51
I'm not saying we do enough of it, but bad policing
38:54
gets a lot of attention as it should. And yet
38:58
there is. Often quite a bit of good policing
39:01
in terms of kind of defusing situations, going
39:04
out to places where people are angry, upset,
39:07
and sometimes chemically altered states. They
39:11
are carefully, somewhat methodically bringing
39:16
down the temperature of that place. But that
39:18
has a hard time getting attention. But we need
39:20
to be learning from it and doing it better if
39:23
we can. So those would be two areas I think that
39:25
deserve more attention. Our tagline is a podcast
39:36
about the places where justice and faith intersect
39:39
and sometimes collide. So how do you see the
39:43
role of faith in justice? Where do they meet
39:46
and where do they clash? Where they meet, I think,
39:49
is certainly in the texts of many religious communities
39:55
that Part of what we are here to do is to love
40:01
one another but also create systems and structures
40:05
and communities where people are taken care of,
40:08
where justice happens, where people get what
40:11
they need in both physical ways but also for
40:16
connection, the need for dignity, the need for
40:20
respect. So I think certainly faith systems encourage.
40:25
cooperation and some measure of bringing justice
40:30
where injustice lives or creating the conditions
40:34
for justice. Where they collide, I think where
40:39
they collide is when people have very divergent
40:43
views on what justice is, right? So talk about
40:46
the criminal justice system. And for some folks,
40:50
I think that's their understanding of what justice
40:52
is. You do the bad thing. And we put you away
40:56
and then we don't have to think about you anymore.
40:59
Forgetting the part that many of those people
41:02
are coming back to the communities that they
41:05
come from. And so what is to be done in that
41:08
case? So, yeah, for me, it would be that having
41:11
very narrow understandings of what justice is
41:15
or having an understanding that that faith and
41:17
justice are. two different areas that two different
41:21
groups of people get to decide what happens in
41:24
them. Yeah. When I think of faith and justice,
41:29
one thing that comes to mind is when I was doing
41:33
my research on ex -gang members in Central America,
41:36
and this was in the mid -2000s when... Gangs
41:41
and fear of gangs was at their apex in Central
41:45
America at the time. Public opinion was so strongly
41:50
against the gangs that there was widespread support
41:53
for social cleansing, which was off -duty police
41:56
officers and soldiers extrajudicially killing
42:00
young men suspected of belonging to a gang. And
42:04
it was widespread. There were surveys to back
42:07
this up. And small congregations, especially
42:11
neighborhood Pentecostal congregations, partly
42:15
because of their evangelical identity, Jesus
42:18
can save anyone, were practically the only communities
42:23
willing to take a chance on a gang member who
42:27
had said, I've had enough. I want out. And of
42:30
course, it was very hard to get out of the gang.
42:32
And the churches were the one place. where you
42:36
could get a community. Now, it wasn't all churches
42:38
for sure, but these small neighborhood Pentecostal
42:41
congregations were the most likely place where
42:43
you could find people who were willing to give
42:44
somebody a second chance. And that's that kind
42:47
of ability to see justice in the individual.
42:51
At the same time where the clash was, these same
42:54
congregations had a very difficult time seeing
42:58
the way the structures, political and economic
43:02
structures of these countries were so deeply
43:05
supportive of economic inequality. That they
43:09
were maintaining the systems that disrespected
43:12
or consigned young men to grinding poverty and
43:18
hopelessness that was driving them into the gang
43:21
in the first place. In a sense, by creating these
43:23
profound shame and disillusionment from young
43:27
people who looked around and said, there are
43:29
no options for me to enter adulthood with respect.
43:37
except for the gang. And so they continued to
43:39
go in. So we've been talking about all these
43:42
questions. What is justice? How does it relate
43:45
to love? How does it collide or connect with
43:49
faith? But there's a bigger question. It is,
43:52
why did we choose to do a show about justice
43:56
and faith? You can have conversations about this.
44:00
You can tell stories. But why do it with microphones?
44:03
I think it's so important to Keep a running dialogue
44:08
about these things. You and I have offices on
44:11
the same floor and... In our day -to -day, when
44:15
we're seeing each other, our colleagues, we get
44:18
to talk about these things because it's what
44:21
we do. And we have questions about our content
44:25
for our classes. We have questions about dynamics
44:28
in the classroom. And for me, those are really,
44:32
really important and life -giving and a constant
44:36
reminder that it's not me by myself thinking
44:39
about these things. In one large way, this is
44:43
an opportunity for more people to be part of
44:46
this conversation. And my hope is that when listening
44:49
to these conversations between us and with the
44:53
guests that we will have, that it gives people
44:56
more to think about and more to talk about with
44:58
each other. And the conversation gets bigger
45:01
and bigger. It's kind of that thing that we were
45:04
talking about earlier. The more people have language.
45:08
for and the more people have stories about why
45:12
this matters and what are some of the ways that
45:16
people have tried to approach the big complicated
45:18
problems, so much the better that people are
45:22
part of that conversation. I like that word conversations.
45:25
It's a word that I've been thinking a lot about
45:28
recently. The first time I thought of the possibility
45:32
of a podcast about justice was when I was teaching
45:38
at another institution in Vermont, and it was
45:41
in the middle of COVID. And we couldn't have
45:44
class live. We had just gone to remote class.
45:48
All the students went home. No one knew exactly
45:50
what was happening, but I knew I needed to still
45:52
teach. And I decided, well, I'm going to start
45:56
having guests. And Zoom was this kind of new
45:58
tool that was oddly useful. And I brought in
46:04
a guest who was a state. legislator who was working
46:08
on reducing the prison population in Vermont.
46:13
And she walked us through some of what they were
46:16
doing and what they had learned, this commission
46:18
that she was helping to lead, and the surprises
46:21
that they had discovered. And then students had
46:24
questions. And we were doing this all remotely
46:27
by Zoom. And it was a marvelous class. She did
46:30
so much better than I could have trying to teach
46:33
about this topic. A really good conversation
46:36
can get you thinking about something that you
46:39
thought didn't deserve your attention in a new
46:42
way and in a more powerful way. I think if this
46:45
show, which is really a show of conversations
46:49
about justice and faith, can generate... more
46:54
conversations between other people about what
46:56
they heard, about what it made them think about,
46:59
about what they didn't agree with or what they
47:01
did agree with or about the person they discovered
47:03
in this show by listening that they never knew
47:06
about and just getting them to think about justice
47:08
more. I think that will be a great success if
47:12
we can do that. And it does it hopefully in helpful
47:18
ways. There is a lot of chatter, as we know.
47:23
about the way that people see and experience
47:26
things. And the discourse is often dismaying
47:31
because it is people hammering in on their idea.
47:38
and not willing to cede that there might be other
47:41
ways of knowing. So much of what we see, particularly
47:46
in social media, is just people shouting past
47:50
one another with the same talking points. And
47:54
I think, I hope that, as you say, what we are
47:57
doing is... providing an opportunity for genuine
48:01
conversation that does accept that, yeah, people
48:04
are going to think differently about different
48:06
things. But if we can sit across a table and
48:11
talk about those things in ways that increase
48:15
both of our understanding of where the other
48:18
is coming from, that's key. in thinking about
48:22
the problems that seem too big to have any answer
48:27
that us mere mortals can come up with. It's a
48:30
way forward. Yeah. Circling back to our conversation
48:36
about faith and justice, one of the reasons I
48:41
wanted this show to address both of those things
48:45
together is that I think people of faith, and
48:48
in particular Christians, are not very good.
48:51
at talking about justice together. Now, there
48:55
are lots of exceptions, of course, but I would
48:58
like this show to give more courage or energy
49:03
to conversations about justice by people of faith
49:07
with each other and with... I don't want the
49:11
show to only be for people of faith, but I do
49:15
want this to be a show where people from a faith
49:18
tradition can see connections between their faith
49:22
and justice in the real world. Again, one of
49:26
my favorite books that I taught often, Just Mercy,
49:30
where Bryan Stevenson, who himself comes from
49:32
a faith tradition, a Christian tradition, His
49:35
stories about fighting capital punishment injustice
49:39
in the American South in the 80s and 90s, he
49:43
tells this beautiful story. He is representing
49:45
a person on death row. The trial is happening.
49:49
There's a recess. He goes out. He sits down.
49:51
And an elderly African -American woman takes
49:55
his hands in hers and says, Your hands must be
50:00
tired. You've been catching a lot of stones.
50:02
She's referring to like indirectly to this story
50:06
from the Gospels where Jesus tells the Pharisees
50:09
to drop their stones. And she's acknowledging,
50:13
well, sometimes people don't drop their stones.
50:14
They throw them and you're catching stones and
50:17
your hands must be tired. And it's such a beautiful
50:20
story that relates faith to justice, which says.
50:26
We're not just supposed to not throw stones.
50:31
We're supposed to catch them, which is quite
50:34
a powerful, powerful injunction, a powerful call
50:38
to get in the way of injustice and a recognition
50:44
that that can hurt sometimes or it can be exhausting.
50:48
And even your body will feel it. It's that story.
50:52
And I appreciate that. I appreciate. the way
50:55
that he does weave stories of vulnerabilities
51:00
throughout that text. And what's so important
51:03
about framing those stories in that way and including
51:07
stories like that is it takes more than one of
51:10
us to do this. And it takes us doing different
51:15
things. Everybody doesn't do the same thing.
51:18
And one of the flaws that I think we have in
51:22
the justice community, so to speak, is when we
51:27
measure what other people are doing by what we
51:32
think they're supposed to be doing. Did you go
51:36
to every single protest? And one of the things
51:39
that I think is important is assessing capacity.
51:42
Assessing capacity for the individual, assessing
51:45
capacity for the community. And what is it that
51:48
any of us can bring to this? There's enough work
51:52
for everyone. There's enough to be done. There
51:55
are a lot of ways to break into this. And everybody
51:57
can't be doing the same thing because that means
52:00
some other things won't get done. I love to think
52:02
about. during movements like the civil rights
52:06
movement, where people were going to these church
52:12
gatherings many nights during the week. Somebody
52:15
had to feed all those people. And we have the
52:18
records. They were hidden for a long time, but
52:21
the records of people who were supporting the
52:24
movement by doing what they could do. Thinking
52:27
about the Montgomery bus boycott, where people
52:30
needed to get to work, but were committed to
52:34
not taking the bus, that means that the taxi
52:37
drivers have to kick in and take less money for
52:40
driving more people to support the movement.
52:42
And those are the kinds of things that regular
52:46
individuals were doing. And when those movements
52:49
get mythologized that there is a person who led
52:54
us. to winning this particular campaign, one
52:58
hero that is so charismatic and so well -spoken
53:03
and so public, it really diminishes our imagination
53:07
for what is actually possible because we need
53:11
the people who are positioned to do this thing.
53:15
And it might be a small thing, but... If I do
53:19
it, that is adding to the potential success of
53:23
this campaign within the movement. Which reminds
53:26
me of one of the goals of this podcast is that
53:31
people will get energized by different topics,
53:34
different things. It might be racial injustice.
53:38
It will be reentry after prison. It will relate
53:42
to better policing. And for other people, they
53:46
will... hopefully get jazzed about sentence reform,
53:51
which is a huge problem. Speaking of what's feeding
53:54
mass incarceration in this country, there hopefully
53:58
will be different episodes that fire up different
54:02
listeners to do something or get involved or
54:06
get informed better. And that's a success as
54:09
far as I'm concerned. I want to back up and just
54:16
give a better, on -ramp for you. A little over
54:19
a year ago, I asked you if you'd be interested
54:22
in participating in Just Stories. And at the
54:28
time, it was just a concept. It was just an idea.
54:31
And I don't remember any hesitation in your voice
54:34
at all. I remember you saying, yeah, I want to
54:37
be a part of that. Why? This is stuff I love
54:39
to think about and talk about. And I particularly
54:43
appreciate having other people to talk about
54:47
it with. These conversations can't exist in a
54:51
vacuum. And it's one of the things that I often
54:54
tell my students that why I teach this stuff,
54:57
not just so that I get a paycheck, but this is
55:01
really, really important. And what's important
55:04
for me is that you all have language and you
55:09
have skills. to put out into the world things
55:12
you already know, like you know this stuff because
55:15
you exist in the world. I want that language
55:18
that you have for it to become part of what we
55:21
are doing together in this classroom because
55:23
I want your voice and my voice and our collective
55:26
voices to become stronger. And so this platform
55:30
is another way of doing that. Is there a conversation
55:39
about justice you've been avoiding with a colleague,
55:42
a family member, or yourself that you hope this
55:45
show gives you the courage to have? I don't think
55:48
that there is anything that I have been particularly
55:52
avoiding, but maybe being more quiet than I want
55:58
to be about it. As a person who teaches about
56:02
conflict, I will admit that I have conflict avoidance
56:06
tendencies. And so teaching my class on conflict
56:11
is a way for me to regularly remind myself that
56:14
there are skills that can be learned and practiced.
56:17
And part of that is the willingness to speak
56:21
up. I will. temper that by saying, I also recognize
56:25
that every single thing does not need to be verbalized
56:28
all the time. And so it's the balance between
56:31
the two of them. And I think that this series
56:34
of having these kinds of conversations where
56:36
people are going to have points of disagreement,
56:39
right? It's just good practice to keep entering
56:43
into a space where we test ideas and also practice
56:52
kindness in the way that we test those ideas
56:55
with one another. So I think that's one of the
56:57
things that I'm always hoping to be aware of
57:01
and get better at. Personally, I'm just hoping
57:05
to learn more by being able to sit across the
57:08
table from people who are deeply involved with
57:13
a piece of the justice system I may be teaching
57:15
about but don't really understand how it works
57:18
on the ground every day. I also hope that people
57:23
will have places to go with what they have gleaned
57:29
from the guests that we have, the questions that
57:32
get raised, the new ideas that come up, that
57:36
they have a place to take that. And maybe that's
57:39
something that we can encourage people to do
57:40
is, what's one question that you want to take
57:43
out of this episode to your community? Yeah.
57:58
This is Just Stories, a podcast about the places
58:01
where justice and faith intersect and sometimes
58:04
collide. Just Stories is a collaboration of the
58:08
Religion, Justice, and Society Department and
58:11
the Communication Department at Goshen College
58:13
in Goshen, Indiana, with funding from the Lilly
58:16
Endowment. I'm your host today, Rob Brenneman.
58:19
Today's guest is actually our co -host, Regina
58:21
Shand Stoltzfus. Since this is our very first
58:24
episode, let me tell you how to keep up with
58:26
us. Just Stories drops a new episode every other
58:30
Thursday. You can find us by searching Just Stories
58:34
on whatever podcast platform you love best. Apple
58:37
Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you listen. Or you
58:41
can visit us at our website, juststoriespodcast
58:44
.org. I'm going to say it again, juststoriespodcast
58:48
.org. So go ahead and hit follow so you never
58:51
miss an episode. Want to be the first to hear
58:54
our latest news plus bonus content and behind
58:56
-the -scenes extras you won't find in the show?
58:59
Follow us on Facebook and Instagram. The profiles
59:01
are Just Stories, but to find us, you need to
59:04
type Podcast Just Stories. And we're on LinkedIn
59:07
as well. And if you have comments, feedback,
59:11
or a guest you'd love to hear on Just Stories,
59:13
our contact info is on our website. Today's show
59:19
was produced by Yebuji. Sound engineering by
59:23
Alex Duggar. Research assistance by Elena Wolf.
59:26
Illustration by Senna Duan. Theme music, Umbilical
59:30
Moonrise, generously provided by the band Lotus.
59:33
Our marketing manager is Melissa Troyer, and
59:36
our audience engagement manager is Courtney Dubjikowski.
59:40
Just Stories is part of More Than Just Stories,
59:43
directed by Dwayne Stoltzfus. What's one thing
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you hope people will say about this show after
59:52
the episode? That it's great and they can't wait
59:56
until the next episode. Thanks for listening.