Latest / Early Edition with Ryan Bridge / Chris Hipkins: Labour Leader discusses a capital gains tax, cost of living, UK visit

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Chris Hipkins: Labour Leader discusses a capital gains tax, cost of living, UK visit · Early Edition with Ryan Bridge

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Chris Hipkins is in Liverpool for the UK Labor Party conference.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: It comes as the party back in New Zealand looks
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: at a wealth tax or a capital gains tax, or
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: potentially both, this while their British counts parts are being
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: absolutely hammered in the polls at the moment over a
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: series of what you could call gaffs and also spending scandals.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Chris is with us this morning, Chris, what have you
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: learned over there? He's stars down in the poles, he's
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: cutting winter energy payments. Things aren't looking good for him.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Oh and there's interesting challenges here that are similar to
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: New Zealand, and there's challenges that are different. I guess so,
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: I mean the similarities. Cost of living crisis is clearly
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: still a big issue here, as it is still a
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: big issue in New Zealand, issues around tackling climate change
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: and sustainability, and the kind of the bigger question of
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: how do you grow an economy that on a per
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: capita basis has been stagnant? You know, these are similar
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: issues and similar challenges that we face in New Zealand.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: Did you bond over your mutual drop in the polls?
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Look at early days with them, so they have the
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: luxury of a five year term, so he doesn't have
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: to go back to the polls for another five years.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: So I think at this point, you know, they're just
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: focused on doing the early things they need to do
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: in government.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: You have to go back to the polls in twenty
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: twenty six. Will you be the leader?
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Absolutely?
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: You want to be.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: You want the job absolutely, And you know, coming away
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: here and looking at you know, some talking to people
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: about ideas about how we can actually move New Zealand forward,
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: it's actually left me even more energized. I think there
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: are some big challenges in New Zealand. They're going to
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: require some fresh thinking and some new ideas. I'm taking
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: the time to make sure we generate those new ideas
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: that are twenty twenty six election is not going to
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: be a rerun of the twenty twenty three election, and
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: you know, we've got to be focused on the future.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about a couple of his ideas and see
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: whether you're into them or not. Where you can quick
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: fire these. He wants long term sickness beneficiaries to start
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: looking for work. Good idea, bad idea.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: Oh look, I don't want to get into discussing UK politics.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: So if you want to ask me about things in
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: the New Zealand context and New Zealand policy.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: All right about in New Zealand.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: In New Zealand, I don't want to provide a commentary.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: I don't want to provide it.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: No fair enough in New Zealand. In New Zealand, would
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: you be on board with long term sickness beneficiaries having
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: to look for work?
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: No? I think I've got a system in place at
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: the moment that sets out clear expectations around long terms.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: There's beneficiaries and then I'm quite comfortable with that.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: They have a limit there. And again this is a
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: New Zealand question. Would we limit a child benefit allowance
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: to two kids max?
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: No? And I wouldn't support that.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Would you reduce the window energy payment to help pay
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: the bills, the government's bills?
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: No. I mean there's a different issue over here in
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: the sense that it was a universal entitlement over here,
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: whereas it's not a New Zealand.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about the elephant in the room, the capital
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: gains tax, the wealth tax. A lot of news in
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: New Zealand about that. Antonia, the head of the A
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: and Z Bank has said that she thinks we need
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: some sort of capital gains tax. Can you just clarify
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: for people, would that cover the family home? If if
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: your family who's saved up your mortgage free, you've got
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: a rental property, would you ever be hit by either
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: of these?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't be happy with taxing a family home
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: and gains on a family home. And the other questions
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  Speaker 2: really are hypothetical because you know, we haven't committed to
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: a particular form of capital gains taxation. But I think
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: what we've got to acknowledge is at the moment, the
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: New Zealand tax system is loaded against working people. Working
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: people end up paying more tax because we're not kept
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: taxing other forms of income. And as our other comparable
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: countries do. There's capital gain stax here and the UK
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: is capital gain stacks in Australia and so many other
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: countries that there isn't in New Zealand. And what does
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: that mean. It means that salary and wager and is
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: the people who work hard every day for a living
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: end up paying a disproportionate share of the tax because
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: we're not taxing other forms of income.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: So this is not about solving the housing crisis for
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: you a capital gains tax. It's about fairness, it's both
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: of it.
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  Speaker 2: It's about both things. I think we have the.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: Tax Working Group. The Tax Working Group has said that
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: it wouldn't solve the housing crisis, it wouldn't help to
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: bring prices down.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: Well, I think you've got to look at that. There's
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: a range of things that have led to people into
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: New Zealanders putting money into the property market instead of
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: other forms of productive investment. Taxation is only one of
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: the things that you've got to look at there. You've
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: got to look at a range of other things as well.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: I doerly don't think taxing income from capital capital gains
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  Speaker 2: on property, for example, would hurt the housing crisis. I
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: think it's likely to be helpful, but it's not going
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: to be a solution. There's no one thing that's going
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: to solve the housing crisis in New Zealand. It's going
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: to require a range of different things.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: In the UK, they've got a capital gains tax, they've
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: got an inheritance tax. Look at the state of their NHS.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: Isn't your bigger problem convincing keyways that if you do
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: do a tax we will actually get some benefit from it.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, we've got to make sure that New Zealanders see
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: the benefit of any changes that we would make to
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: the tax system. They've got to see what's in it
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: for them.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: Stats n Z put out the General Social Survey yesterday.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: This is for twenty twenty three, So this is when
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: you guys were in office twenty twenty one to twenty
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: twenty three. Trust and the health system down, education down,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Parliament down, police down, courts down, people's sense of belonging down.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: Do you take some responsibility for those numbers, of course,
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: but we've.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Got to recognize that those numbers were on record highs
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: just three years ago during the COVID nineteen pandemic. We
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: saw record levels of trust and confidence in government, and
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: now they're coming back down to more like the levels
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: that they were before the pandemic.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: So you're saying that this is actually a good thing
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: or a normal thing.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: No, not at all. I'd love to see those numbers
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: stay higher. I think we've actually got to work really
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: hard to make sure that our democratic institutions are ones
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: that inspire confidence and trust from the New Zealand public.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: I think they are taking a bit of a knock
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: in recent years. I think we do need to take
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: that seriously as politicians. We need to make sure that
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: we're making the changes to the way our democratic system
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: operates so that we're increasing public trust and confidence.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: Is anyone doing the numbers against you and the Labor.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: Party to be No, absolutely not, absolutely not that I'm
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: absolutely confident that I have the full support of the
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: Labor team.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Hey, the nuclear free moment, obviously it's been well for
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: five six years now since just Cindra Durn's proclamation. We've
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: now had in the last twenty four hours Todd Energy
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: come out and join the likes of method X and
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: OG and Windstone and they are making cuts at Todd Energy,
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: which is hugely concerning. Do you concede that what you
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: did with the offshore oil and Gas band has had
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: an impact on investment here and it is costing jobs,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: good regional union jobs.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: No, absolutely not to totally reject that rhyme and the
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: facts actually say otherwise. I mean that's been from the
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: oil and gas industry for the reality here as we
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: haven't had a significant oil and gas bye in New
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: Zealand it's two thousands and what the Oil and Guests
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: Band has only been in place for the last years,
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: so if there was a ready supply of oil and
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: gas there, they would have found it by now.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: Well, we don't know that, do we. I mean, I
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: mean you don't know what you don't know, and the
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: fact is if you ban it, you'll never know.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: Well, there's still a lot of offshore oil and gas
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: exploration permits that are active now. They could be out
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: there exploring now, even because we didn't cancel any of
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: the permits that were in place when the band was
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: put in place. They chose not to do that.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: So you're saying that when method X, when these companies
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: put out press releases and they've sent me statements partly
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: blaming your ban on offshore oil and gas exploration for
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: a dampening and investment, they're making it up.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: It's it's always easier to blame that. It's always easier
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: to blame the government when companies have to make some
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: difficult decisions. But the reality is New Zealand's future should
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: be focused on renewable energy. It's cheaper, it's going to
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: be better for New Zealand business because of New Zealand
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: businesses paying lower power prices. They're going to be more competitive.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Fossil fuels are more expensive than renewable fuels. The thing
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: that houses our electricity prices to go up is not
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: the cost of renewable and it it's the cost of
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: fossil fuels.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: Just finally, you might have seen I mean, I'm sure
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: you've been keeping abreast of politics here, but Chris Luxon
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: has had a oh he's had a few I don't
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: want to say tanties, but he's had a few run
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: ins with the media. What do you make of his
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: performance this week?
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: Oh? You know, I mean, I think Christopher Luxelm said
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: that he's setting all these targets so that the public
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: can hold him accountable for the government's performance. And now
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: that the targets are actually showing that the government's performance
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: is getting worse, he say, we'll forget about the targets.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: Stop questioning me on them. I mean, he's contradicting himself.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, if he wants to set targets and say
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: hold me accountable for the targets, he's got to be
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: prepared to be questioned on them.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: How long did you get in a meeting with Starma?
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: It was a relatively brief meeting. We were meeting for
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: you know, it was a meeting between meetings for both
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: of us, so we've got to about ten minutes. I
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: suppose had a good sit down with Angela rain As,
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: the Deputy Prime Minister over here for about half an hour,
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: and I've meeting with plenty of other laboring peas as well.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: That was Chris Hopkins, the Labor leader over in Liverpool
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: for the UK Party conference. There. For more from News
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Talk st B, listen live on air or online, and
• 9:13
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• 9:15
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