Latest / Integrity at Scale™ / You Know You're Avoiding It – Here's What to Do Next
Transcript
- Hey folks, Dr. Tara Vossenkemper here. You're listening to the Culture Focused Practice podcast. Thank you, of course, for being here with me. We're talking today about the hard conversations that you are actively avoiding. Yes, you. And also, maybe most importantly, what to do next with those hard conversations that you're actively avoiding. I mean, I think that most leaders know they avoid hard conversations. I'm not the only person who has done this. I think that hopefully anyway, most of us have connected this to some form of self-protection, but having that awareness and making those connections doesn't necessarily change any behavior, especially just on its own. This episode is about naming some of the specific stories that leaders are telling themselves that, like, keep us in the self-protective mode, about who we are, what kind of leader we're supposed to be, how we're seen, and ideally gives each of us, including me, something concrete to do with that awareness. Here is what I have found: knowing why you avoid something does not change whether you do it or not. They are two entirely separate lanes. So let's touch on an agenda just to give some parameters to the episode. There's three items we'll talk about. Number one, awareness isn't enough. What gets in the way? Number two, three stories leaders most commonly use to protect themselves. And number three, what to actually do differently. 📍 So agenda item number one, awareness isn't enough. What the fuck gets in the way? First of all, there is a gap between knowing and doing. I so wish there wasn't. I absolutely wish that I could just learn something, gain insight, and then generalized across my whole life, like my behavior would change everywhere. That would be incredible. A lot of us who avoid hard conversations, I would say we're not oblivious to the fact that we're doing this. Typically, we feel really conflicted, like there's something about the conversation, something about the story that we have. I also hate that language, but I think it just makes sense here, so I'm going to go with it. The story that we have, the things that we use to justify or explain or rationalize our behaviors, our feelings really, but our behaviors are reflective of that. It's like internal conflict. It's not just conflict external because you're about to have a hard conversation with somebody. It's also internal conflict, like whatever things you're telling yourself are going to bump up against this conversation that you're just about to have. That's the conflict piece. I think something to note here, though, especially if we're talking about that gap between knowing and doing, insight without a next move creates shame. I think it's like knowing something and then not changing. It just makes us feel worse. I absolutely know that this is the case for me. Like, if I am aware of something, I almost get, truth tourettes. Like, I have to say it out loud because that's a way that I can get it out of my fucking body, first of all, out of my head, and then also make it known with other people, so then this thing might become a player at the table. So anytime it comes up, now I can just voice, "Hey, that thing is happening right now in real time." And now all the people around me are also aware of it, and it's now just part of the conversation. It's not gonna run the show, but it's part of the conversation 'cause it's happening in real time inside of me. So I think my point is just that whenever we have insight and we don't share it with others, relevant others, of course, and also don't change our behavior. It just makes us feel shitty. I think we just end up feeling, a lot of us anyway, shame, maybe guilt. But this feeling like, God I'm wrong, like I'm doing something wrong, which is more in alignment with guilt, but it can also be shame, like I am wrong. I know this is right, and I'm still behaving in this way. Something is wrong with me. That's shame. Another piece why awareness isn't enough it's kind of the same. The gap between knowing and doing... maybe a slightly different way of saying this is that understanding your why doesn't automatically change your behavior. Look, I am very interested in understanding why. I almost feel insatiably curious about life and people and how we operate and what is coming up for me and what's going on and why would I do that. My integrator will say that she's a contextual person. She wants a lot of details about things. So I'm not saying that being contextual or, like, wanting to know details is wrong, because I don't think that it is. I like information. But understanding your why doesn't automatically change your behavior is really, like, think about a sensory motor reaction to something versus your cognitive awareness of it, you know? If we are going into some sort of protective mode it's gonna happen really quickly, and I think in a lot of cases, kinda subconsciously, and then we can look at it later and say, "Well, I did that because of this," or we might have some, again, rationale or reason for it, or we might say, "Well, I understand why I did that." That's great, and it's really important, but it's not actually changing anything in real time. So I think about if you touched a stove when it was hot, you're not thinking about the need to move your hand away. Your body just reacts. Like, it's a very quick reaction. And then it might be your awareness of "Oh, Jesus, that fucking hurt." You feel pain, and then you're aware that you pulled your hand away, et cetera. I think that self-protection is more in the realm of your body reacting and pulling your hand away. So if we're thinking about it in that way, then from my perspective, there's something about your nervous system needing to be tended to that is part of this conversation. Your nervous system, I love my nervous system, but yours and mine it doesn't really care what I think. Like, it's not responding ... Sometimes it is responding to what I'm cognitively or consciously thinking, but oftentimes it's just running its own show. And so just because I understand why something's happening doesn't mean that my nervous system is gonna say, "Oh, gee, thanks," and then go back to bed, you know? Like, it's still gonna be on high alert for things. That's not the same thing. It's not going to change behavior because now I understand why. It's still going to have its own response and reaction. I think related to that, and this third piece why awareness isn't enough, what is being protected, and I'm not saying that this is true for every single person, but I think this is probably true for a lot of people, what's being protected isn't just comfort, like your sense of comfort. It's also identity, and that's where we get into the stories that leaders commonly protect. So just real quick about identity stuff. This isn't about being conflict averse. I think this is more about who we are, how we see who we are as leaders. That's what I mean by stories that we tell ourself. If we are having a conversation that threatens our sense of identity as a leader, it doesn't usually feel safe. I always think of Inside Out, the scene where in the first one, all of her Funland and Familyland, I forget what they're called, those little islands, they start to crumble, and she doesn't yet know that there's gonna be newer ones that are built that are much more complex and detailed and rich and robust. And I'm not even saying that knowing would make the experience of losing those islands better, but the idea that we're stepping into something and we are going to have a conversation that threatens our identity is terrifying. It's really, really scary for people, and often silence just feels like, "Well, I'll just deal with this later. I'll just talk to them later. I'll just see if it's really that big of a deal." Like, we end up being silent 📍 instead. So let's transition, and let's talk about some of the stories that leaders will most commonly use to protect themselves. And as I'm talking, think about yourself. Just reflect on, "Is this accurate for me?" I know that there's one that's especially fucking accurate for me, and I hate love/hate being called out, but, it's happening. Okay, one of the stories that a leader might tell themselves, first one, "I'm the kind of leader who supports my people." Being the kind of leader who supports your people sounds lovely. It sounds wonderful. It sounds like you are just really interested in making sure your folks are supported, feel cared for. I love this. If you have that as the main sort of, central island in your leadership identity, then anytime you go to have a hard conversation, there is a high possibility that it feels like evidence that you are hard to work for or demanding or unsupportive, and that, in turn, erodes your supportive leader identity. This is really, really common in, I wanna say, like, people-centered businesses, but clinician-centered businesses. You know, especially when you have group practice owners who were therapists, them transitioning to leadership is... it's really hard. I mean, I know firsthand, for me it was very difficult, and I think that's the general theme I get from folks, is that it's really, really hard to transition from a therapist to a leader. So having a hard conversation, if your story is, "I'm the kind of leader who supports my people," immediately starts to, eat away at the supportive identity. Here's what's really ironic, of course, in all of this, 'cause there's irony everywhere in life, isn't there? Not having that hard conversation is, I would argue, objectively less supportive than having that hard conversation. If you're not having a hard conversation with somebody, we are not giving them the information, the feedback, the data that they need to do a job well. If that trend continued without any sort of correction or help for that person to further develop, what we might end up with is wrong person in the right seat, a person who's underperforming and knows it, but doesn't know how to fix it, and so they also feel shame. And I would say importantly, we're taking away their autonomy. We're taking away their ability to choose to behave differently in the role that they're in. I hate that. That's the thing I hate the most in this story in particular. Another story that leaders might tell themselves to protect from hard conversations, you might say, "I'm not the kind of leader who makes it about me. I wanna be a really humble leader. I wanna have high levels of humility." Cool. So I think that being low ego is really important, because there's a lot of people who are smarter than you, me, uh, I say you generally, myself included in that mix, you know? And there's also people on your team who are gonna do things much better than you do. Thank God for that. And there's also things that you're wrong about that you might currently think that you're right about. Areas that you need to grow into that you're not really aware of yet. I mean, this list could go on and on. So it's cool that we are low ego, but what might happen, is that people who have this belief or this story are going to feel like raising an issue is almost like self-indulgent, like you're centering yourself over the person, so to speak. So it might be something where you are thinking that your silence is low ego and humility, when really it's just avoiding a conversation that's gonna be hard to have. And you know as well as I do that being a leader at a practice means that we have to be really fucking frank about things. We have to talk openly and honestly with especially our leadership team about, God, really, really hard things. Not doing that screws everybody over in the practice, at the group, at the business, including you, but also including everybody else involved. So saying, "I don't wanna make it about me," cool, I get that. And also the extreme end of that is acting like avoiding a hard conversation is humility when it's not. Third thing, Oh, this one's hard, 'cause this is abso-fucking-lutely what I do. Story you might tell yourself: "I don't know that I'm reading this right. I feel fuzzy, I feel unsure, I don't feel like I have enough information." I feel so fucking called out right now at myself. I'm, like, seriously struggling. Not for real. It's kind of like a delicious struggle, you know? It's like, yeah, I mean, I need this, I need to talk out loud. I know other people deal with this, too. Doubt is basically a protection strategy, and if you feel uncertain about something, you don't have to act because you're not certain yet. Lovely, right? It's lovely how that works. This one really, I would say, shows up the most when the issue involves a high performer or someone that you especially like, someone who's been around for a while, someone who has a lot of sway with the rest of the group or has a really just big presence in the practice, you know, at the group. It might also show up when you have somebody in a role that you can't fill if they're not there, and so there could be some protection around, "I don't know if I'm reading this right. I'm not an expert in this area. And also if I bring this up and they leave, I don't have anybody to take that spot." We had a billing specialist, this is years ago, and initially I loved her. I really, really strongly like people who tend to be covert narcissists. It just happens. We all have our niche, okay? That's the one I fill. And so I know this about myself now, but like back then I had no idea. And so I'm much more careful if I'm really drawn to somebody right away, I usually also treat that as almost like its own like, you know, red flag. But I'm digressing. Okay, had a billing specialist years ago, and I adored her when she started. I just thought she was the bee's knees, and then it kinda turned into this like cloudy, sort of foggy, I don't really know what she's doing, I don't really know why, I'm not really sure about this. I started to just question some of what was happening. I mean, people were being billed. The system was running. But I would get a lot of like she's talking to me and coming across like she's really, really busy, but I'm not really seeing anything get done beyond what's kind of expected. And then, I would say kind of, more than one sloppy mistake, like somebody rushing through would make the mistake rather than somebody paying attention to what they were doing. That's what I mean by sloppy. They kinda started to show up, and so it was this really weird situation, or maybe just a situation like I'm not sure if I'm reading this right. I felt like I couldn't address it with her. Like, I didn't feel like I could go to her and say, "I think we have a problem," because I wasn't sure what the problem was. And this also kinda speaks to I don't think we were even using EOS at the time, so no EOS, no, seats with clear responsibilities or roles, no scorecard, none of that stuff. Maybe some metrics, but like not really. So I think what's really like ironic in all this is like sure, had our systems been cleaner, we could've brought it up with her sooner. I could've asked her sooner and like keyed in on specific metrics or variables. Not having that, instead my standard for her just like quietly and slowly shifted over time until at some point, you know, you reach this threshold where you're like, "Wait, this is not... This is not right." Like, it's very clear that something's not right. That was after this gradual shift in standards occurred over time, though. I think the irony in this is that if it was somebody that you trusted less or maybe didn't like, you would address it much faster. You might just say, "What's up?" "I don't think this is working." I don't know about you all, but I feel like I can be pretty candid, period, but I feel more candid and maybe more direct with people that I don't know super well because there's not really-- we're here to talk business, you know? So there's not this relationship there as well. So guilty as charged is maybe what I'm trying to say. Just to recap the three stories, you've got I'm the kind of leader who supports my people. I'm not the kind of leader who makes it about me, I don't wanna be that type of person, and my favorite because I'm the most guilty of it, I don't know if I'm reading this right, I'm not sure if I'm getting it, I don't know if I have the full picture, any sort of variation of that. 📍 So let's shift from talking about awareness not being enough, talking about the stories, and let's get to what to actually do differently. There's just three key things I wanna talk about here. One is name the story before the conversation occurs. So this is where awareness is helpful. If you are aware of the sort of story that you tell yourself and the sort of thing that you know about yourself, stay in tune with it. Just name it. It's probably happening way more often than you give it credit for, if that's the right language there. It's happening consistently. You don't need to resolve it necessarily, not in that moment. You just have to fucking name it. See it clearly. I would say try to see it clearly in advance of even stepping into a conversation, and then just set it aside. Just name it before it happens, right? Pay attention to let's name the story before it actually comes up in the conversation. Number two, another thing you can do, this one is honestly, I think I don't know if I would say the hardest, but I think probably the most important piece in all of this. Separate your identity from the outcome of the conversation. Oh, much easier said than done. Just because you're having a hard conversation, it can just be a hard conversation. It doesn't need to mean anything about you as a leader, them as an employee, them as a person, your character, your strengths, your fault. Like it doesn't need to mean anything. It could be we're just trying to talk about something in front of us, and I'm much more collaborative, I don't know about than most, but I tend to be very collaborative, especially in conversation, so I want their input too. Like we're talking about this thing together, and so then it becomes our hard conversation and not mine. It's just my hard conversation. It's us. We're doing this together. Think about the conversation as being almost, an act of respect. Like, it's a sign of acknowledging the person in front of you being willing to sit in tension with them, talk about something that's difficult, and do it knowing that you're actively combating the story that you tell yourself, or knowing that that's an active player at the table, so to speak. It's all a sign of respect. Like, you're respecting the person. I think even more broadly speaking, you are respecting the group at large. You're respecting your business. I think another piece here from separating the identity from the outcome of the conversation, this is really, really hard for me to accept. The irony is that I accept my faults within myself. Like, I know there's plenty of shit I'm not good at, and I don't give a fuck. Like, I don't wanna do it, you know? But I think there's awareness of, and acceptance of, that sometimes there's hard conversations with people that you highly trust and that you maybe want in a seat, and they don't have the unique ability or the strengths or the capacity to be in that seat, and they might not ever see it in the same way that you do. That is really wicked hard, for me in particular, and I think maybe for a lot of people. One last thing you can do to just start to engage with this differently, just lower your bar. I think this is especially relevant for people who tend to "I don't know if I'm seeing this right," like that's their story, you know, or, "I don't know if I- I'm getting the full picture." Lower the bar for what percentage of the picture you need to see. If you feel like, "Well, I need 90 of these before I'm really comfortable doing anything," maybe you just need 60 because it's just a marker for something going on, and then you can step in with care and concern and, dare I say, courage, which feels super cheesy to say but is still accurate because you have to be brave to have a hard conversation, and that's enough. You might not be stepping in exactly with all the clarity that you need, the exact script that you need, the timing and cadence of the conversation that needs to be per... maybe it's none of that. Maybe it's just I have some data, or I have, like, a feeling and I wanna explore this, and it's not a super pleasant conversation, but I wanna respect you as a person, as an employee. I wanna respect the group, and then have it with you. That can be enough. Like, it could just be that, and that would be fine I think if I just had to quickly run through this, you know, thinking about having hard conversations and just human tendency to be self-protective. Awareness isn't enough to change this. We have to, of course, have awareness of it, why it's important, the story that we tell ourself, but then we also have to figure out what are the ways in which I can do something differently with regard to the story that I tell myself and the behavior that manifests as a result of that story. You don't have to resolve the story to have any conversation. It might always be an island in your identity. Fucking leave it there, man. You have to be able to see it, and we do have to be able to still behave differently even if it 📍 exists. As per usual, thanks for being here with me, being willing to have this conversation. Subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. And send this to somebody who is avoiding a hard conversation, who you know, like, they need to have this fucking conversation ASAP, and wish them well. Tell them, "Listen to this. Good luck. Godspeed. Carry on." All the positive things. That's it for me. I will see you on the next episode. Thanks. Bye.