Latest / The Perfect RIA / Decoding the CPA Mindset: Tips for Financial Advisors to Earn More Referrals with Guest Steven Jarvis, CPA [Episode 259]

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Decoding the CPA Mindset: Tips for Financial Advisors to Earn More Referrals with Guest Steven Jarvis, CPA [Episode 259] · The Perfect RIA

0:01
Matt: Everybody wants CPA referrals but I don't think
0:04
anybody's actually getting them
0:33
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1:04
All right back to the show.
1:05
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of The Perfect
1:08
RIA podcast. I'm your host Matthew Jarvis and with me
1:11
today, none other than my very own brother Stephen Jarvis, CPA,
1:15
head of Retirement Tax Services. Steven, how are you doing today?
1:17
Steven: Matt, I'm doing really good. One of my recent favorite
1:21
stories I get to tell people about us just happened the other
1:23
day. I think it was more fun for me than you but you were a good
1:26
sport about it. We got recognized on an airplane well,
1:29
I recognize that an airplane.
1:31
Matt: That's true.
1:31
Steven: And then their immediate question to you is well, you
1:33
must be Micah, which why they would go with Micah and not the
1:37
other Jarvis. I don't know. But Micah is a good looking guy. So
1:40
Matt: Yeah, yeah, I was super fine. I'm a little embarrassed
1:40
you should still be fine.
1:42
for Micah that he got confused as me. There. Yeah. So Steve and
1:46
I are brothers have been brothers for as, well Steven as
1:49
long as you've been alive. Not as long as I've been alive as
1:52
the older brother. But that's true. In addition to our role as
1:55
brothers of course you are CPA extraordinaire, the head and
1:58
founder of Retirement Tax Services where you work
2:01
exclusively with financial advisors and their clients. And
2:04
what we want to talk about today and you and I recently did a
2:07
Steven: Yeah and selfishly on behalf of other taxpayers, I'll
2:07
webinar for your RTS members, is how to actually get referrals
2:11
just go ahead and plug that for me. Anytime we have this
2:11
from a CPA, right? So every podcast, I listened to every
2:14
expert, quote, unquote, that I hear says, yeah, go to your
2:15
conversation. I love that we can help people get referrals, but
2:17
centers of influence and get referrals. And then you ask and
2:19
for me, it's also that this is a great way for advisors to build
2:20
you say, well, how many referrals did you actually get?
2:23
And the number is somewhere between zero and zero? So
2:24
really effective relationships that are going to help their
2:26
Steven, from your experience as a CPA, your experience working
2:28
clients win. There's two sides to this. It's not just the
2:29
with hundreds 1000s of advisors give us the inside scoop here.
2:32
referral side and one of the reasons I love having this
2:36
conversation is because for years I had never given an
2:39
advisor a referral, including to my brother, someone that's
2:44
related to me someone I have failure with had never given
2:48
these referrals in part for me because I used to not focus on
2:52
the types of clients that you serve. And so right that's a
2:56
piece of it is one of the benefits of building close
3:00
relationships is so that the CPAs you work with know who you
3:04
serve, and who you're going to want to work with. And in my
3:08
past life as I was working with a completely different clients
3:12
that I didn't send you referrals because I wasn't working with
3:17
people you wanted to work with, but that was really what it came
3:21
down to. But for a lot of CPAs it goes beyond just that of hey,
3:26
what kind of clients you serve, and really gets into this bigger
3:30
issue of questioning whether financial advisors deliver value
3:35
in general and knowing what to expect if I send a referral your
3:39
way? What's that even going to look like?
3:42
Matt: Well, it's important for us to take a step back on the
3:45
referral discussion because referrals, whether they're
3:47
coming from a CPA, Steven like yourself or an attorney or a
3:50
client or a neighbor or a friend. There's a couple of
3:53
things we have to remember first we have to remember you
3:55
highlighted this briefly. Whoever is giving the referral
3:58
is taking an enormous risk. And let's wait upside downside. Best
4:03
case upside the person is going to say like oh, hey, thank you
4:05
for that. Appreciate that. Downside. Like like we almost
4:09
can't imagine a dark enough downside, right? Like hey, this
4:12
guy was an idiot. I can't believe you know him. He stole
4:14
my money. He's now in jail like we can get pretty far. So if you
4:18
as the CPA, Steven I'm weighting the upside downside, like
4:19
alright, I met this guy, Bob, Bob financial advisor, and I
4:24
could send a client to him and maybe I'll get a thank you for
4:28
the client. Or maybe I'll get a giant complaint from a client
4:31
and this could even ruin that relationship.
4:32
Steven: Well, and so again, I can only speak from the CPA
4:34
perspective and right, wrong or otherwise. This is how a lot of
4:37
tax preparers think about tax services as opposed to financial
4:41
advising services. In the mind of the tax preparer, tax
4:45
services are essential and everyone needs them. It's not
4:47
negotiable that you need them. It's just a matter of who you're
4:49
going to pick. In contrast, for financial planning, this is like
4:53
a luxury that maybe some people need and so it's questionable
4:56
whether or not it's even mandatory to have so you've got
4:59
to convince the taxpayer that what you do is even of worth and
5:02
then that you are the right person to do it. So as a
5:05
financial planner, you do have this bigger hurdle to get over
5:08
to get to the point where someone is excited to send you
5:11
referrals, because that's where you want to get.
5:12
Matt: Yeah, let's also keep in mind and this goes to, I always
5:15
want to get into the mind of the person that I'm trying to get
5:18
something from not like in a weird way, I just wanna get my
5:20
mindset. So another angle that Steven is inside the CPA.
5:23
Community, you can speak this better than I can. Things are
5:26
pretty cut and dry. Right like the CPAs who do tax do tax and
5:30
the ones who do audit do audit and the ones who do SCC audit do
5:33
it, like generally speaking, correct me if I'm wrong, there's
5:35
pretty clear boxes where as a financial adviser, we can't even
5:38
agree amongst ourselves what it means is that mean you're
5:40
selling life insurance if you're a stockbroker. Does it mean
5:42
you're doing financial planning? What does financial planning
5:44
even mean? So, I'm going to use saying, Hey, listen, I just do
5:48
this thing. Send me some of your clients you don't know what
5:50
that's gonna look like. You don't even know what that means.
5:52
You don't know how to compare me to the 100 other advisors that
5:54
called you this week. Like I'm, I'm trying to overcome a big
5:57
hurdle here.
5:57
Steven: Not only that, I don't really have this thought before
6:00
articulated it. I'd have to go back and like do some polling.
6:03
But anecdotally, I would say that a lot of the CPAs I know
6:06
very much fall in the camp of Well, I'm a smart person, I can
6:09
do financial planning myself. And so most of them are not
6:12
personally working with financial advisors to even have
6:15
that firsthand experience to your point to be able to say,
6:17
hey, here's what financial planning is and why you need to
6:19
go talk to someone. So there's there's a few hurdles overcome
6:22
here.
6:22
Matt: Another one of these just beat up on these hurdles. Let's
6:24
pick one more because you and I were joking about this offline,
6:26
right? We have to remember that the CPA designation is it's a
6:30
legal designation. If you call yourself a CPA and you're not,
6:33
there's criminal penalties for that if you fulfill the CPA
6:36
obligation. There's criminal penalties. If you call yourself
6:39
a CFP, and you're not you'll get a letter from the CFP Board
6:43
saying you're in violation of their trademark, like that.
6:45
That's the extent of CFP and I've been one for a long time.
6:48
I'm not trying to disparage our profession, but we cannot go and
6:51
I cannot go into Stevens office and act like we're equals, or
6:54
worse yet that I'm in a superior position. That's just not going
6:57
to get anywhere for professional.
6:59
Unknown: And all this with the caveat that we know that on your
7:02
podcast here that we're talking to financial advisors, so we're
7:04
being very intentional that the language we use because this is
7:06
not a debate about who adds more value or who's the better
7:09
professional and who's smarter. We're just acknowledging the
7:11
reality of the situation. And you can spend all your time
7:14
having those debates, or you can get work done and deliver value
7:17
to your clients. I mean, you pick but we're here to talk
7:19
about what actually gets results.
7:22
Matt: Let's pull apart a couple more layers of this onion that
7:24
we're gonna talk about how to actually go down this process of
7:26
getting referrals also need to remember that when we send
7:29
someone a referral, we're doing it to benefit ourselves. Now,
7:33
you might take a step back, right but here's why this is
7:35
important. If I go in and say hey, Steven, please help me out
7:38
would you do me a solid favor and send me a referral? A that's
7:41
not a good position. Like I'm in there begging. I'm saying like,
7:44
Hey, could you help me out? I'm not really sure the value there,
7:46
but Steven is gonna send or any CPA is sending that referral
7:49
because it makes them look better in the eyes of the
7:51
client. They may not have consciously acknowledged that
7:53
they may not have said like, hey, I really want to refer my
7:55
client to Matt because he's, you know, he's gonna make me look
7:58
like a better guy at the end of the day. That's it, which is why
8:01
for example, never referred someone to McDonald's or to
8:04
Walmart. It's a reliable experience. They do exactly what
8:07
they said they're gonna do. You're laughing right? It's
8:10
funny, but like McDonald's does exactly what they said they'll
8:12
do. They'll give you a mediocre burger for a mediocre price.
8:15
Walmart, you know, it will give you the lowest price you could
8:17
possibly find, but you've never been like, Hey, dude the
8:20
McDonald's here in town, you gotta go. Because again, it's
8:23
not going to create an above and beyond experience for you. It's
8:25
not going to make me look better. In fact, you might even
8:27
question like, really McDonald's as your favorite place in town,
8:30
even though they're from time to time. So, gotta keep that in
8:33
mind. What's the other person's mindset?
8:35
Steven: Yeah, that's a really interesting perspective. I'm
8:37
definitely laughing because I hadn't thought about that way
8:38
before but I'm thinking back through because my experience
8:41
over the last couple of years has definitely changed my lens
8:44
on this because now I spend all of my time working with advisors
8:47
and their clients and so I get to see a lot deeper into
8:49
advisors practices, especially what they do around taxes and
8:53
all the other pieces because although I'm not a stereotypical
8:57
CPA, there are still some things that are true about me. One of
8:59
them is that I want to stay focused on my lane of what I'm
9:02
good at. But I also recognize that taxes are not the only
9:06
piece of a client's financial picture and it's somebody needs
9:08
to be taken care of the rest of it. So this is where it turns
9:11
into. It turns into a huge upside for me to be able to
9:14
point something to an advisor when it's an advisor I know and
9:16
trust because I can say hey, Mr. Mrs. Client, I'm really good at
9:20
this tax thing, but the tax thing is not the only thing you
9:22
need. And if you're a someone that that fits a particular
9:27
advisors, ideal client, I can say hey, you need to talk to
9:30
this advisor because they're gonna walk you through XY and Z
9:32
as well. I'll still take care of the tax piece but now your whole
9:36
financial picture is gonna be taken care of.
9:38
Matt: Yeah, one of our favorite things is to be able to say hey,
9:41
I know a guy you got a problem that you told me about a problem
9:44
you have. And I know a guy who can fix the problem and
9:46
sometimes it feels like almost like the mob like I know a guy
9:49
you know a guy but we all love that right? So a client comes to
9:52
you Steven and says, Hey, listen, I got this. Whatever the
9:55
issue like I want to retire next year, I inherited this money.
9:57
I'm not sure what to do. And you can say, you've got this
10:01
problem. And I know a guy or gal who has delivered massive value
10:04
to me, who always goes above and beyond who makes my life easier
10:07
and treats me with respect. I know that they will help you
10:11
out. Let me make that introduction. That's something
10:13
I'm excited to do versus Well, I mean, 10 advisors call me a week
10:16
and this guy called me most recently, so I mean, maybe he'll
10:19
help you out. Actually, you know, at that point, why don't
10:20
use Googl.e Google financial advisor and good luck to you.
10:23
Steven: As we talk through all these these hurdles and
10:24
obstacles and challenges with getting this done. You might be
10:27
anxiously waiting for that one thing you can do that magically
10:29
fixes it overnight. And sorry, that's not the way it works. But
10:34
here we can pick the things that you've seen work bad that I've
10:36
seen work of how you build this relationship over time, which I
10:41
love this conversation because it's similar to tax planning in
10:43
general. It's not a one and done. There is no magic script
10:46
that fix this immediately. There are things we can consistently
10:50
do over time that if we have an intentional process are
10:53
absolutely going to get you the outcome that you want.
10:56
Matt: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Of course, what we're going to
10:58
outline now is a strategy. That's for me, roughly 1/3 of my
11:00
practice has been built on referrals from centers of
11:03
influence. See what you were talking about several advisors,
11:05
we know that have gotten significant numbers of referrals
11:07
from the same strategy. And here's kind of the crux of the
11:10
strategy. The crux of the strategy is that I too, need to
11:14
refer clients out. I too have clients as a financial advisor
11:16
who need a tax preparer who needed an attorney who need
11:19
these different things. And I want to be in a position where I
11:22
say, Hey, I know a guy now I wish that CPAs would call me I
11:25
wish that they would line up outside my office and they would
11:27
say Hey, Jarvis we're really looking for an advisor like love
11:30
to sit down with you and find out if you're the right advisor,
11:32
hasn't happened hasn't happened. So instead, I reach out and talk
11:35
about this in my book Delivering Massive Value. I reach out to
11:38
every center of influence we're gonna focus on CPAs today
11:41
because we got Steven on the line I want to reach out every
11:43
CPA in my area, who seems to find niche, right? If I go
11:46
online, I look for CPAs. And I see they do all audit work, or
11:49
they do all SCC compliance. Like that's not the right person. I'm
11:52
going to find the person that seems to fit my niche. I'm going
11:54
to reach out to them and say, Hey, Steven, I have clients all
11:57
the time asked me for an introduction to a CPA and I
11:59
cannot promise that any of them are right fit for you. What I'd
12:02
like to do is pay for an hour of your time, get a feel for what
12:05
it is you do get a feel for who your ideal client is. And if I
12:08
ever run into someone like that, in my practice, I will be
12:11
excited to send them your way. Can you tell me what your hourly
12:13
rate is and how it gets you on my calendar.
12:15
Steven: Now I've got a quick site. So usually it's so
12:17
relevant because you use this line all the time of hey, can I
12:20
pay for an hour of your time, and people who haven't done it
12:22
personally, I think can take it sometimes as a throwaway line,
12:25
but it's not. It's something that I've literally used, and
12:28
it's something that I've started using. I don't have to reach out
12:30
to tax preparers with it. But how does situation come up that
12:33
was outside of my area of expertise, but wanting to
12:35
deliver value to the client. I found someone who this was their
12:39
area of expertise and I reached out to them and use this exact
12:42
line of hey, can I pay for an hour of your time to work with
12:44
this client to figure out how this works. And just like you
12:47
also usually talked about is a most of the time they probably
12:50
won't even take you up on the payment. Sure enough, we get on
12:53
this call this person openly shares their expertise. Gets us
12:56
everything we need to know, realizes Hey, we don't, it's not
12:59
an ongoing relationship here and I say okay, how do we get you
13:01
paid? And he said, Hey, this one's on me. So these things
13:04
work, if you'll put them in practice and do them exactly how
13:08
Matt: Yeah and it's just not a throwaway line. I'm gonna when I
13:08
they're being recommended.
13:12
show up at their office, I'm going to show up with a check in
13:15
hand already written out now sometimes it's getting harder
13:17
and harder to find checks, right? But I'm saving them from
13:20
having to go through the hassle of invoicing me and again half
13:23
the time they'll say no, no, this is a professional courtesy.
13:25
I said, Okay, well, I got the check right here, professional,
13:28
but even if they take the check, I don't blame him if they do. So
13:30
what 300 bucks, 500 bucks, whatever the case may be, but
13:33
I'm starting right away by delivering value to them. They
13:36
don't know me from Adam. And so instead of saying, Hey, Steven,
13:39
will you do me a favor and give me an hour of your time I'm
13:42
saying hey, listen as a professional can I pay for an
13:45
hour of your time? Right away? I am head and shoulders above
13:48
anyone else who has ever called them including their own
13:49
clients, like your own clients are calling the hasty like to
13:52
pay for some of your time, right? They're complaining to me
13:54
like I can't believe my CPA billed me. Well you did talk to
13:57
him for like three hours. Yeah, but he shouldn't bill me. How
14:01
should you get paid? I don't even know it's here.
14:03
Steven: But that's something you've been talking about for
14:06
years like you said it. This is included in your book. This is
14:08
something we've been talking about together for years as
14:10
well. Yeah, geez. Within the last year or two, we actually
14:12
went through and put together a calendar together of here's what
14:14
you can be doing every single month because I'm sure you get
14:17
the questions too. I get a lot of questions from advisors who
14:19
will say, hey, this all sounds great, but like, when do I reach
14:23
out and what's included in that gift basket that you talked
14:26
about or that handwritten note? And so to help with some of
14:28
that, that's why we put on checklists we get on podcasts
14:31
like this, but we do have to get specific we got to take these
14:34
ideas of calling them and asking for an hour of their time and
14:37
say, But wait, how do I find those people? What do I send to
14:40
them? When do I say it and just get into the weeds as well?
14:41
Matt: Yeah, we also have to keep in mind this is a two year plus
14:45
strategy and you and I have advisors however they have
14:47
gotten referrals in literally the first meeting. I have never
14:50
had that I've been doing this for a long time I've never had
14:52
that we both know several advisors follow this strategy
14:55
Steven as you outlined and word for word right came in with a
14:58
questionnaire to the whole thing got referrals immediately. But
15:01
you got to figure this as a two year strategy, which is why
15:03
Steven your point that 12 month calendar is so helpful of here's
15:06
the activity I'm gonna do every single month to cultivate these
15:09
relationships. These are relationships that require
15:11
nurturing. This isn't a hey, would you write down five names
15:14
of somebody I should talk to.
15:16
Steven: As we're recording this, we're just coming out of the
15:17
filing season and so on that as we put together that 12 month
15:20
calendar, when CPAs are in their busiest time of year, that's not
15:24
when you're calling inviting them to lunch or asking them to
15:27
join the CE or whatever it might be. That's when we're sending
15:30
consumable gift baskets. They come with no additional request
15:34
for action on their part. It's just hey, I know it's a busy
15:36
time of year thinking about you wish you all the best and I got
15:40
jeez I can count at least a half dozen messages from advisors
15:42
this filing season who said hey get exactly what you said
15:46
phenomenal response. And so this isn't even just like something
15:49
you try six years ago and hope still works like this is realist
15:52
still work in the trenches people are actually doing this
15:54
and getting the results.
15:54
Matt: Funny, funny side horror story, I guess the other web
15:57
there are there are very few people who can get away with
16:00
your one microphone. There's very, very few people. One of
16:03
those people is a CPA that I work with who has sent me a lot
16:06
of clients, and we'll call her Sue because I don't want the
16:08
rest of you calling her. Sue calls my office one day and
16:11
tells Colleen and says I need to talk to Matt right now. And
16:14
again, she's one of the few people gets patched right
16:17
through so it was tax filing season. So that oh, she must
16:19
have a question when a client Sue, How's it go? And Sue, who's
16:22
a unique individual, as Sue says, you know, I've met I hate
16:25
financial advisors. I hate all of you. And I'm thinking what
16:28
did I screw up? Where does this go? So she proceeds to tell me
16:31
the story that right in the middle of the tax filing season
16:34
is already the middle of April, she gets a call from an advisor
16:37
who, Steven you and I know, gets a call from the advisor advisor
16:40
says hey Sue, I'm just calling because I'm looking to grow my
16:43
business to that I don't care what you're doing. It doesn't
16:46
matter. I'm in the middle of tax season. I've decided to there's
16:49
a true story. I promise you. I've decided to specialize in
16:52
working with women, and you're a woman and I'd like for you to
16:55
refer to me all your women clients. So if you could just
16:57
give me your list of women clients, I will go ahead and
17:00
call them and I said, Sue I too hate all financial advisors.
17:03
That's the worst thing. I can't imagine anything more wrong than
17:06
that. And she wasn't even surprised by the call. She says
17:09
get these calls all the time. I just needed to vent to somebody.
17:12
And so I got a call to vent to you so that you can really screw
17:15
this thing up. Like that guy is never going to get a referral
17:18
from her. And in fact, if she ever runs into his clients,
17:21
she's going to actively recruit them over to other advisors.
17:25
Unknown: Wow, that's nice guys want to sit and kind of enjoy
17:27
that moment for a second. That's... It's good. It's good
17:30
to know what the extremes are. Right? So the silver lining out
17:33
of that for everyone else who isn't that blind is the bar
17:36
isn't very high. And this actually is true across kind of
17:39
across the board for tax preparers. Unfortunately,
17:41
there's still a generally and we talked about it before is
17:44
there's a general kind of misunderstanding what financial
17:45
planners do. And there's more of a general impression that hey,
17:48
it's a bunch of sleazy salespeople that just aren't on
17:51
my level. And so if you consistently do things if you'll
17:55
consistently have reach outs that are under selfish and self
17:58
serving, even if it's not, feels like changing, sending a
18:03
consumable gift basket might not feel life changing, but now you
18:06
stand out in my mind as someone who is looking out for me and
18:08
not asking me to do things at the wrong time of year. If I get
18:11
a handwritten note, if I get a stack of RTS tax guides that say
18:14
hey, these are things that we give to our clients. I'd love
18:16
your feedback or let me know if you want more copies. All these
18:18
different things that seem simple. I've been there before.
18:21
We've all showed up somewhere where we're listening to prove
18:24
someone wrong as opposed to listening to learn where we
18:27
listen to it and listen to to Jarvis brothers talk and say,
18:29
Hey, guys, no, none of those ideas individually sound
18:32
complicated. I probably could have come up with them on my
18:34
own. The key here though is you didn't and even if you did, you
18:39
haven't executed on them. And the only thing that counts is
18:42
what you take action on.
18:42
Matt: 100% 100%. So here we are. We're the late stage of May here
18:45
early June. This is a good time of year to be reaching out to
18:48
all your tax preparers. So if we were pulling up that 12 month
18:50
calendar, and Steven you and I just did a whole webinar on
18:53
this. There's one month calendar right now say hey, it's post tax
18:56
season, tex preparers have had a chance to recover. This is a
18:58
great time to reach out to existing tax preparers you
19:01
already know, right? Some of you already have a relationship you
19:04
have mutual clients, it's a great time to reach out and say,
19:06
Hey, can I buy you lunch or pay for an hour of your time to talk
19:09
about your thoughts on the Trump era tax cuts expiring?
19:11
Legitimate question right then we have a discussion or what are
19:14
you advising clients rates are scheduled to go up and 26 are
19:17
you doing gains harvests? Are you doing Roth conversions? Like
19:20
tell me your your thoughts about that? And of course for tax
19:22
preparers I haven't met that's where I'm doing that cold
19:25
approach. Hey, listen, I'm always looking for somewhere to
19:27
refer people can I pay for an hour of your time and so forth.
19:30
So that's really what you ought to be focusing on right now is
19:33
how do I get in front of these people? Again, can I buy you
19:35
lunch can pay for an hour of your time, whichever the case
19:38
may be?
19:38
Unknown: Yeah, Matt, you and I went through and laid this out
19:40
over a calendar over 12 months with recommendations of what to
19:42
do each month. And there's some of those months that are a
19:45
little more critical of the timing as opposed to others some
19:47
of them are probably interchangeable. Some of them
19:49
are not to your point. Don't be calling the tax preparers in
19:52
March and April. Don't! Don't try to get the other time that
19:54
time of year. But what's more important is that this has a
19:57
place on your calendar to live because we all know that we're
19:59
much more likely you're going to do it if it's not on our
20:03
individual calendar. So even if you don't have the exact same 12
20:06
month calendar that we do, you need to take time to sit down
20:09
and either put this on your calendar for the first time if
20:11
you haven't before, take the time to review what you have on
20:14
your calendar. Make sure that you're incorporating your team
20:16
that you have a system for this because this isn't levels right.
20:20
Step one would be I've got something on my calendar each
20:22
month, but then it's great I get to May and it's like Okay, now
20:25
what do I do? The next level would be okay, I've got specific
20:29
actions or I've got specific team or taking those actions. So
20:33
this is more likely to get done.
20:34
Matt: Yeah, another lens that helps with that. Any center of
20:37
influence and again, we're talking specifically about CPAs
20:39
here it works for attorneys and it works for business bankers
20:42
and a couple other professions. It does not work with realtors,
20:45
mortgage brokers, so many people have transactional
20:47
relationships, but I want to treat them as if they were an a
20:50
client, like my top top top client, which means if I'm doing
20:53
any kind of a client newsletter, I'm also physically sending it
20:56
to them with a quick post a note saying hey, this is something
20:59
that we're sending to clients. Do you have any feedback, love
21:01
to hear it? Or if we're doing any client events education or
21:04
appreciation? I'm inviting them say, Hey, I'd love to have you
21:07
come we'd love to introduce you to a few clients. Right? I want
21:10
to make sure I'm cultivating that. And I'm always focused on
21:13
Joe Polish's approach to you and I go to Joe polishes Genius
21:16
Network on a regular basis, his approach of what's in it for
21:19
them. If I'm approached and saying I need something from
21:22
you, and I'm gonna give you nothing in exchange, that's not
21:25
going to win, right? Even this thing. Hey, I'd like to hear
21:27
about your thoughts on the exploration of the TCJA but I've
21:31
offered to pay for lunch or pay for an hour of their time to get
21:33
that feedback. I'm not trying to make them easy, but like hey,
21:36
I'm too lazy look this thing up. Can you tell me where the armor
21:38
brackets are?
21:39
Unknown: Yeah, and I use mentioned there and pasty this
21:41
is more coming from other people like your talk. I would really
21:45
strongly encourage you offer to pay for an hour of their time.
21:48
Not offered to buy them lunch. Yes because people have an
21:51
offering to buy them lunch their entire professional career. And
21:54
that just screams I'm trying to sell you something. It's um,
21:57
this is just transparency, right? Even if you lead with
22:00
like, Hey, I'm looking for how I can buy like, they know you're a
22:04
professional. They know you want to make money. It's not gonna be
22:06
a surprise that at some point, you wouldn't be opposed to
22:08
getting some referrals from them. But there's just kind of
22:11
this I don't know. Just this impression around. Hey, I'm
22:13
gonna buy you lunch that I'm going to turn down every time
22:16
because so many people make that offer to me. It doesn't stand
22:19
out. You call it an offering to pay for an hour of my time
22:22
suddenly stands out.
22:23
Matt: Yeah, I appreciate that distinction, which highlights
22:25
the year the purpose of this podcast and of course the
22:28
podcast Retirement Tax Services podcast on doing what works and
22:31
listening to people who are actually doing this. And I'm
22:34
glad you would draw that distinction because you're
22:36
right, I would only offer the lunch to someone with whom I
22:38
already had an existing relationship. Yeah, yeah, a cold
22:42
never. I would never say excellent. Obviously. Right,
22:45
that's pure. Like let me I'm gonna pitch you and it's just
22:47
like the timeshare presentation, right? You say, Oh, look, I
22:50
could get a free lunch or I could get a free trip to
22:52
wherever if I sit through this timeshare presentation, and not
22:55
many people I know take up on that because they know it's just
22:57
going to be the hard sell. So again, I appreciate that
22:59
distinction of anytime you're gonna let people know that and
23:04
if it's in your heart, like hey, I'm just gonna try to pitch this
23:06
person. I want to go and even though I've paid for an hour of
23:08
your time, I want to deliver value in this. One quick funny
23:12
story on that Stephen, the gentleman who taught me this
23:14
strategy many, many years ago, this guy named Ray Addams, for
23:17
all I know is still practicing advisor, Kirkland, Washington.
23:20
He was my insurance general agent at the time. And so he's
23:23
walking through this strategy with me how he does it. And he
23:25
says, he's a funny guy. He says, Matt, when I sit down with him,
23:28
you know, I give him the check. I sit down on their desk, and
23:30
they say, Well, Ray, what would you like to talk about? And Ray
23:32
would say, You know what, I paid for an hour this time if I want
23:35
to jump up on your desk and yodel that's what I'll do.
23:39
That's what he would tell him. It worked for him. I would not
23:42
recommend that. I would not recommend that. But you just set
23:46
yourself apart by begin putting what's in it for them.
23:48
Steven: Well, and here's the other piece of it, Matt. I know
23:50
you talked about this in your book you talked about as you
23:51
discussed this strategy. I mean, we're always talking about this
23:53
in condensed timeframe. So you only have so much time to talk
23:56
about all the things that this does. But the other side of this
24:00
is that this can be a huge value add to your existing clients
24:03
even if you never get a referral. Because unless you
24:06
happen to have the one book of clients that pays $0 in taxes,
24:09
but still has money somehow. There are going to be things
24:12
that you can learn and continually improve on and so
24:15
again, it's not just a throwaway line. It is totally worth your
24:18
three or $500 to sit with an expert and hear how you can
24:21
address tax law changes how you can better communicate Roth
24:25
conversions or qualified term distributions, how you can set
24:27
your clients up for success. Those are all real value ads
24:31
that you'll get out of the process as you're building this
24:34
relationship. And that's the thing that it might stand out on
24:38
the outset that hey, you offer to pay for an hour of my time
24:40
versus buy me lunch. But what's going to keep you top of mind is
24:43
as I can see that you do something different for your
24:46
client that you clearly care about not just doing tax
24:49
planning, but making sure it's reported correctly that you
24:52
accept that is somewhat your responsibility not just my
24:55
responsibility as the tax preparer to make sure all the
24:57
right information gets to.
24:58
Matt: Yeah, it really is one of the thing I would kind of cash
25:01
I'm just kind of reflecting back on mistakes I've made. Which
25:04
which is a lot is a lot and actually see a quick side note
25:06
really excited that we're gonna be jamming together at the
25:09
Retirement Tax Services Tax Summit, that's on September 25
25:12
to 27th in in the Phoenix area. And what I like so much about
25:15
that and I'll tell you back into second is that it's all people
25:18
that are in the trenches, right? These are tax preparers. These
25:21
are advisors who are delivering massive value and they can share
25:24
what works and and what doesn't work. So here's an example that
25:27
doesn't work. I used to be quick to just call a judge the tax
25:30
preparer I would run into like, Oh, this guy's an idiot or this
25:33
lady straight up told me she would never refer a client, a
25:35
financial advisor ever, and I would be dismissive of that, but
25:38
there's no need to. If i sit down with a CPA that I paid for
25:41
and he or she right at the gate says you know, we have our own
25:44
wealth management department and we would never refer externally.
25:47
I'll just make a note. I say, Oh, that's really interesting.
25:50
Okay, so here my first question is like, Who do you decide who
25:53
gets filed on time and who goes on extension? Like I'm not ever
25:56
gonna let anything faze me. Because even if that's true, you
25:59
know, they say I'll never refer outside of or for the strategic
26:02
players in town. They still be the people outside they may be
26:05
looking for financial advisor themselves. I'm never gonna
26:07
dismiss that. I really can't think of a real world scenario
26:10
whatever say yeah, I'm not going to talk to this person again,
26:13
like short of them saying, Hey, come here again. I'm going to
26:16
kill your family. And I might still just do it for the
26:18
challenge. I got a dairy like go for let's see what happens.
26:21
Steven: Well, Matt, I'm glad you mentioned this summit. I'm
26:23
getting really excited about it. We're probably getting close to
26:26
the whole thing selling out so make sure you get your seat
26:28
soon. But I was recently talking to our good friend Micah
26:31
Shilanski. And if we're kind of comparing notes about how
26:34
financial advisors talk about tax planning activities, versus
26:37
how clients, hear them and then relay them to a CPA, which is
26:40
one of the things I'm excited about. Be able to share at the
26:42
summit of both sides of that conversation. Because as the
26:45
advisor, you're only going to ever see the adviser side of
26:49
that. And despite your best intention, they're going to be
26:52
misunderstandings at times or just you know, six months later,
26:56
the clients not going to remember it quite the same way.
26:58
So we're actually working on how we're going to help advisors at
27:01
the summit roleplay some of these things and go through
27:03
specific scripts Hey, remember that great strategy that you
27:07
were excited about? The client was excited about? And then six
27:09
months later, the CPA backed the bus over you and told the client
27:13
what a terrible idea that was. Great. Now how do you address
27:16
this? And so those are the kinds of things a real world
27:19
experience, I'll be able to go around the room and saying, Hey,
27:21
who's dealt with this before? And tell me exactly what that
27:24
looked like.
27:25
Matt: Yeah. I've ever reflected back on last year's Tax Summit,
27:27
right where Michael Henley was their brilliant advisor talking
27:30
about how he does seven figure Roth conversions every year,
27:33
like going to clients that you should convert $1.3 million to
27:36
Roth. Holy smokes! Or my comments was they're talking
27:39
about how he bought a tax practice and the pros and cons
27:41
of that right to be able to hear I'm just not aware of anywhere
27:44
else you can go and learn from people who are on a wildly
27:48
successful road. A lots of places you go and have someone
27:50
read you the tax code. Lots of places you go where people
27:53
theorize about it and no one else I know where you can go and
27:55
actually learn from people are doing.
27:57
Steven: Yeah, go to retirementtaxservices.com. I
27:59
think you can specifically go to retirementtaxservices.com/summit.
28:02
Get right to the registration page. You can of course follow
28:05
me on LinkedIn as well so that my followe count continues to
28:08
exceed Matt's. That's what's important here. You're welcome
28:10
to send me a message there. And I'll get to the information.
28:13
We're super excited about this event selling out and having a
28:16
room just packed with advisors who are committed to this stuff.
28:19
Matt: I love it. I love it. Well, that sounds like action
28:21
item number one get signed up for the summit. Action item
28:23
number two, I would say get your calendar out and physically mark
28:26
when and how you're going to cultivate your centers of
28:27
Unknown: Yeah, this is only gonna feel somewhat related. But
28:29
influence and relationships. Even if this isn't a major
28:31
prospecting channel for you. Just the ability to build a say
28:34
when your client comes in and says hey, I need an attorney. I
28:37
need a CPA. I need a business banker. Whatever your niche is,
28:40
and you can say listen, I got a guy I got a gal who can take
28:42
care of it. That itself is incredible. That's massive value
28:45
to your client versus telling them I don't really know anybody
28:48
you should just Google it right? There's no value there. Steven,
28:51
any other actions that come to mind either on this topic or
28:53
taxes in general?
28:56
it comes to mind a lot just from our conversation, others that
28:59
have come up recently, when people are telling you
29:01
strategies that they think are going to work in practice, just
29:04
ask them how it worked the last time they did it, and you're
29:08
welcome to ask me that at the summit. You can ask Matt that I
29:10
love it when people try to call Matt out and ask what that looks
29:13
like in practice because Matt, you're really doing these things
29:15
Steven: But it's such a good litmus test for is this
29:15
in practice.
29:15
Matt: 100%
29:16
something I should pursue and not the people who aren't doing
29:18
it can't have accurate ideas sometimes, but at least you have
29:19
the right lens of oh, hey, that was an idea versus this is
29:21
something that really works in practice. So the action item is
29:31
make sure you're asking that follow up question when you're
29:33
getting recommendation.
29:34
Matt: I love it. Final extra item. If you haven't checked out
29:36
already, be sure to check out Steven's Retirement Tax Services
29:39
podcast. It's a great one to add to your rotation. And of course,
29:43
as always, be sure to like subscribe and get five stars in
29:46
both podcasts. It does make a big difference as we are
29:48
spreading the word. So thank you, Steven very much and to all
29:50
of our advisors. Until next time, happy planning!
29:53
Hey before you leave a quick word from our sponsors. Hey,
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