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Policing and Anti-Depressants: Should Police Work Under the Influence? · Murders to Music: Crime Scene to Music Scene (Streamline Events and Entertainment)

• 0:24
  Speaker 1: antidepressants and police work Do they go together?
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: I didn't think so.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: I was scared.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: I was fearful there was a stigma and only crazy people need to take medication.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: How can I be a cop, how can I live a functioning life if I'm on meds?
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Little did I know that everybody around me that looked like they had their shit together.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Little did I know they were struggling just like me.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Well, what is going on?
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Everybody?
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: My name is Aaron, and welcome back to the Murders to Music podcast.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: On tonight's episode show we're going to talk about antidepressants and law enforcement.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: You know, before I started taking medication, I would drive around and feel just crappy and knew that medication was an option for me.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: But I was so scared to step into that pool, to jump into that.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: I was so scared that I would be judged.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: I was scared that there would be a stigma.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: I was scared that my life would be different.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Would I always be on it?
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: What happened if I got into a critical incident and I was on medication?
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: If I shot and killed somebody?
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Are they going to do a drug test and find out that I'm crazy because I have mental illness issues?
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: Should I even be a cop if I have mental illness issues.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: Am I mentally ill?
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Is this normal?
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Would a normal person be feeling like killing themselves or driving into a bridge abatement?
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know what if people find out.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: What if I start taking meds and all of a sudden that gets out and they start interviewing me about why I'm taking meds and I got to tell them about these feelings that I'm having or lie to them, which I don't want to do.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Is that going to end my career?
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: These are all thoughts that I had and I was super, super scared for trying to better myself or heal myself.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: I didn't realize that I felt alone.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: I felt like I was the only one.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: I looked around to my shift mates and everybody was so awesome and tight and they had their shit together and they were just perfect.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: They lived in this perfect world.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Yet I'm in my car crying as I drive down the road until I get out on the next call, and then I put on a brave face.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: Little did I know that a lot of the people I worked with were doing the exact same thing, and whether you are a police officer or somebody taking antidepressants and I'll speak about it from the law enforcement point of view, because that is what I know best, but I think a lot of these things can be applied no matter what profession you're in, having been a police officer who was medicated.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: There was a lot of things that came up along that journey good, bad and indifferent and I just want to get that out there because somebody listening is also wondering you know, should I take medication?
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: What happens if I do?
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: I want to talk about some of those things.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: Before I talk about that, though, I want to tell you guys a story.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: This happened when I was back in Alaska and you know, sometimes I get really, really lucky.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: Sometimes high school I got really lucky.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: Sometimes, as an adult, I got lucky.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: This is a time where I was hoping, so here's what we got.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: So it is middle of the winter in Alaska and I'm on patrol.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I'm at three o'clock in the morning or so.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I pull up to the front of our local Safeway.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go in and get something to eat, and about the time I pull in the parking lot, I see this car coming at me.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: And this car coming at me I recognize.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: I recognize it to belong to a young lady who lives in town.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: She's a local drug dealer.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: You know there was a time that we stopped her coming back from Anchorage and took her off the tarmac and she had drugs all over and shoved up inside of her and all kinds of stuff.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: So I see her, we see each other and it's super slow motion.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Right, I'm the cop, she's the bad girl.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: We see each other, we make eye contact, we pass, pretending not to see each other, and then we both pull up to the front of the store.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: So I get out of my car, she gets out of her car.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: We're walking along the front of the store.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: Now it's cold outside, it's winter time.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: We're kind of moving at a good clip.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: It's probably 10, 15 degrees below zero and we're both going for the same exit.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: I happen to be behind her.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: She's wearing some leggings, they're skin tight and she's got on a black jacket.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: As I'm following her, I see that she puts her hand into her front jacket right pocket, pulls it out, it's cupped, I can't see what's in it and then the hand goes right down the front of her pants.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: So as I'm following her, I'm following her through the store.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: I'm running her with dispatch to see if she's still on probation.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: I know, based on my previous contacts with her that she carries drugs and a plastic Easter egg and she will carry that plastic Easter egg up inside of her hoo-ha, and I suspect that is what she has just shoved inside of herself.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: As I'm following her, the hand is down the front of the pants and she has got whatever she's got in her hands.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: She is literally shoving up inside of herself.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: And the reason I'm telling this story is it came up at a local or at a recent Christmas event that I was at and I thought, eh, if it comes out at a Christmas event, I can probably share it on here.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: So, anyway, she's walking through the store and she's shoving something up inside of her and her hand I mean, she can't get more of her hand up inside of her and then her hand comes out.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: She walks around.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: I learned that she's on probation, so I stop her and I'm like, hey, you're on probation.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: You know what did you just put inside yourself?
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: She's like I didn't put anything inside myself.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: I'm like, all right, well, you're being detained, I'm going to take you back to the office.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: I do believe you put something inside yourself and I'm going to write a search warrant to try to find it.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: So I take her back to the office, put her in handcuffs, put her in the back of my car.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Well, she's in the back of my car, she takes her hand, slides around the front.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: She's a tiny little girl and she's shoving her hand up inside of her hoo-ha.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: So we get back to the office and I put her in the interview room.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: She's still handcuffed.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: I can see her in the camera.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: She's still shoving her hand up inside of her hoo-ha.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: Whatever it is, she's trying to bury deep in there.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: So I write this search warrant.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: Try to bury deep in there.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: So I write this search warrant.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: And you see, about two weeks earlier I made a traffic stop and a girl put drugs up inside of herself, but it wasn't her hoo-ha, it was somewhere else back there.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: And I ended up writing a search warrant for it, got the search warrant and took her to the hospital and ultimately got the drugs out.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: So I figure, okay, this is going to be a repeat of what I had two weeks ago.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: So she's in the interview room, I write the search warrant by this time it's probably four in the morning, 4.30 in the morning, and I send the search warrant off to the judge and the judge is remote in Anchorage.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: I send the search warrant off to the judge and the judge comes back, a female judge, and she's like you know, officer Turnage, I respect the investigation you're doing and common sense tells me what she's probably got inside of her.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: But you know, officer Turnage, can you tell me, without a doubt, that she didn't put car keys up inside of her?
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: Did you see anything?
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: Did you see what it was?
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: And I said, your honor, I can't, I can't, you know, tell you exactly what it was.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: I know what her history is, I know what we got off of her when we were on the tarmac, I know where she had it hid and probable cause says that that's probably what she's got today.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: So the judge hemmed and hawed and she's like well, officer Turnage, as much as I want to give you a search warrant, I just can't give you a search warrant for her vagina.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: And you know, because we can't, without a doubt, say it wasn't car keys that she's shoving up there.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: And I was a little frustrated and I'm like your honor.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: I said, you know, this gal is known, she's known around the public.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: She is sleeping with every drug dealer in town.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: She is, you know, all over the place, can you reconsider?
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: And she said an officer turned to me I can't.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: I can't issue you the search warrant.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: And I'm like your honor, I am the only man that's ever been denied access to her vagina.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: And the judge laughed.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: I laughed and ultimately that person got to go another day and, uh, did not get arrested for drugs at night Cause I could not get inside of her vagina.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Anyway, that's the story.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: So how did that come up?
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: At a Christmas event?
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: I have no idea, but it did.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: So that's the one time that I didn't get lucky.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: You know I got denied, but so be it, you move on.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: All right, let's talk a little bit about medication.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: So I'm not a doctor, I am not a psychologist, psychiatrist.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: I can't prescribe meds.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: All I can do is tell you about my experiences, right, and I want to tell you about my experiences and how they've affected me over the years, because I think somebody can learn from it.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: So here's my deal.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: I'm feeling lousy for a couple of months.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: I'm tired all the time.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: No matter how much sleep I got, I was never able to really drag myself out of bed with any kind of energy.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: I slept all the time, found myself napping throughout the day, found myself napping on shift, finding my dark police parking lot and taking a nap.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: I had zero excitement for life.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: I was making piss poor decisions with my family.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: Zero excitement for life.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: I was making piss poor decisions with my family.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: I was, um, just not being the husband or the father that I could be or should have been.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: I wasn't being the friend.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: I was getting into arguments or fights every single night when I was at work.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: I didn't want to work out, I didn't want to go do anything.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: All I wanted to do was sit around, watch TV and be a complete bum.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: And I thought that I deserved this because, you know, this is just my way of life.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: It's the way that it was.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: People around me were complaining, my coworkers were complaining.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: I was crying all the time.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: Uh, at work getting ready for shift, I was crying.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: All the time.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: At work, getting ready for shift, I was crying.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: This was back in 2012.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: I was suicidal.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: I had went out to the woods, put a gun in my mouth, was about to end my life because I didn't want to face the fact that I was so far underwater that I couldn't breathe and couldn't see a way out.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: I gained some weight.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: My concentration was terrible.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: I couldn't make even small decisions.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: It was very hard for me to take action or make decisions.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: Now, if I was going to a high stress call, then my anxiety or not my anxiety my adrenaline would take over and I would, you know, sharpen up for that call.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: But other than that, I had a hard time comprehending what was going on on the radio.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: I had a hard time following people's discussions.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I would hear something and two seconds later wouldn't be able to remember it to write it down on my notepad.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: It was just kind of a crappy notepad.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: It was just kind of a crappy, crappy place.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: As you go through this, you feel worse and worse about yourself because you feel like you're a failure.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: I felt like I was a failure.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: I felt like sometimes I just wished that I would drop dead.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I wish that, you know, I would maybe get shot, maybe get killed in the line of duty.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: At least I could go out a hero.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: And I was working too much.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: I was working around the clock, I wasn't taking any time off.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: I would pull extra shifts.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: I was constantly pulling double shifts, so working 20 hours at a time.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: It was really, really rough.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: So during that time I went to I was a DRE drug recognition expert and I went to a conference in Seattle and at that conference there was a Washington State police officer who was tall, good looking, poster child for law enforcement.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: I mean he must have been six foot six, v-shaped torso, tight uniform, tall boots, motor officer, swat guy, just an absolute stud.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: And he's up giving this class and in the class he's talking about mental health, mental health awareness, mental health, mental health awareness, ptsd, dealing with PTSD, those types of things.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: And he told the story that he was just an A-plus officer.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: He was out there doing everything they needed to do.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: He was a SWAT guy, he was a motor officer, he was the head of patrol, he made more arrests, had more officer contacts, solved more cases, got into more SWAT encounters than anybody else.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: So he was an absolute stud.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: And then he talked about how his life started going downhill and all the things I just described to you.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: He described that he was experiencing and he says he went to the doctor and the doctor diagnosed him with PTSD and depression and that pushed him over the edge.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: So he went home and started drinking and drank himself to an absolute stupor and from there he got a gun and he pushed all of his people out of his house and he held himself hostage in the house.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Well, his family called the police.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: His officers that he works with showed up.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Their SWAT team showed up.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Now he's a barricaded, armed subject inside of the house and after a lot of negotiation he chose not to kill himself and he turned him.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: He surrendered.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: From there he was on leave, he got some treatment, got healthy again, dealt with his alcoholism, dealt with his PTSD through medication and therapy and everything else, and then he came back to the job and he was an active officer again, back in the line of duty.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: So he tells this story and then he puts a checklist up on the projector and the checklist says here are the things that you have to look for for PTSD.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: And if you have these things, or the majority of them, you know, then you're at risk.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: You should seek some professional help.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: So when he put that list up, mentally I'm like I don't have these problems.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, we sound like we're telling the same story, but I don't have the problems, I don't have PTSD, I don't need therapy, I don't need medication.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: But when he put that list up.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: I checked off 19 of the 20 items and it was totally like holy shit, this is exactly what I'm experiencing.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: And this is about the same time that I had just come out of the woods with a gun in my mouth, and this is about the same time that I had just come out of the woods with a gun in my mouth.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: So I had these connections and parallels to this officer's story, this trooper's story Sorry for any troopers out there listening, I know that's important for you guys.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: So anyway, I had the same you know parallels as this trooper did.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: So it was at that time that I decided that maybe I should do something.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: But as I start thinking about what I'm going to do, there's the stigma with PTSD, which I've spoke about in my previous episodes, but there's also a stigma with taking pills and medication.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: You know, if you're a police officer and you are, at least for me, I'll speak for me.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: My thoughts and concerns were if I'm taking antidepressants and I get into a car crash, are they going to take my blood?
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: And if so, is it going to show that I'm on medication?
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: And if so, is it going to negatively affect me in my career and am I going to be the next headline on the news If I get into an officer-involved shooting same thing?
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Is it going to come out in a questionnaire when they start talking to me and, if so, is it going to negatively affect me and, potentially, can I even take pills?
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Even take pills.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: What if people find out?
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: What if my fellow officers find out that I'm on medication and report it to a supervisor?
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Not only will they find out I'm taking medication that could be quote-unquote mind-altering is what I thought but also I'm taking it while on duty.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: Do I have a duty to report this to my agency?
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: And all of that made me reluctant to even identify that I had a problem with that I needed, maybe need some help with.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: So I put it off.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: I put it off for a while and then, in about 2012, I decided to go to the doctor just to see what my options were, and it didn't take long at the doctor, after some question and answer sessions, that I got diagnosed with severe depression work-related depression.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: So, as a result of getting diagnosed with depression, I got prescribed some medication and I started taking that medication and I noticed myself feeling worse and I was blaming the meds for it so I would stop taking the meds.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: And then I spoke to my doctor.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: My doctor said just stay on the meds.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: It takes two weeks for these medications to kick in before you start to feel some relief.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: So I took the medication.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Sure enough, after a couple weeks I started feeling a little bit better.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: What I noticed is the medication softened the highs and the lows of my life.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: It would be that when I would pre-medication, when something bad would happen, or even somebody cutting me off or looking at me wrong, I would stay upset and said and pissed off for hours or days.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: I was so angry.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: My response was so disproportionate to whatever the circumstances were.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: And that is kind of where I was pre-meds On medication.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: I realized that I wasn't living in those low, dark places.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: I also wasn't feeling the really high highs.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: I was kind of right down the middle.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: It would soften the highs, soften the lows, kind of bring everything towards the midline, and I just kind of cruised and it worked out well.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: It worked out so well that after doing this for six months, eight months, I'm like I'm healed, that after doing this for six months, eight months, I'm like I'm healed.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: I don't need this stuff.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: So I stopped taking my meds.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: Then, once you stop taking your meds, I got into this pattern of feeling crappy again and when I did, I didn't want to go back on the meds because I didn't want to go back to the doctor and say I stopped taking them, because then I feel was embarrassed about that.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: So I just stayed off the meds because pride is getting in the way and my ego is getting in the way and how I appear to others in this case, my doctor's getting in the way and I was able to keep my medication and this whole thing a secret from everybody at work.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: So here I am.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: I'm now in a detective role.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: Ptsd is compounding I just don't recognize it at the time and it gets us up to 2022 when I ultimately you know the story came out of work for PTSD and which led me to where I am today.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: If you don't know the story, go back and listen to episode one and two and that'll tell you the story.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: So the depression when I came out and I got put on, I got diagnosed with PTSD.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: I got prescribed some new med that I I'll call it mood blunting, but it was.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: I had no highs, I had no lows.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: I was right down the middle and I was pretty happy down the middle.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: You know I wasn't over the top, but life was good.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: I was right down the middle and I'm going to therapy.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: At the time I'm on medication and in my mind, again man, again man.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: I'm getting healed.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Life is good.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: You know what?
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: I haven't been mad in almost nine, 10 months.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: I don't even get mad at the dog when it shits on the floor.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: I am super happy.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: I was happy with everybody I was around.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: I'm meeting new people.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: I'm meeting strangers who become friends.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: I am in the community.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: I'm shaking hands.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: I'm like holy hell, who the hell is this guy?
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: I am right down the middle, but I am on the happier side of life.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: I'm bragging about how good I feel and how healed I am and how the therapy is working.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: It wasn't until I realized that I wasn't sad.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Either I wasn't crying at sad movies or, you know when, things that should be affecting me weren't and this is different than being numb on the job.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: This is things in my personal life that should affect me my kids getting hurt, my whatever it may be.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: I should be sad and I wasn't.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Then I recognized that I was feeling numb, you know and I was not really the medications were taking its toll on me, and it was the meds that I was feeling.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: So I think having that period of time where I was mood blunted, or mood constricted, if you will, and kind of right down the middle, that was good for me.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: It was helpful and therapeutic, because I was coming out of a state of high stress where I was anxious, high anxiety and basically revved up all the time.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: So that period of time that I was permanently happy, perma-happy high, if you will, on these drugs, then I felt good, you know, and it was.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: It was therapeutic and helpful for me.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: But then I realized that I don't want to live this way.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: I don't feel anything.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: So I talked to my doctor and we adjusted the medications.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Once we adjusted the medications, I started to be able to feel the highs and lows again, and I found that happy place down the middle.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I found, though, on medication, is that it could confuse some of my therapy that I was doing.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: It would when I believed that my therapy was working.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: It was really the medication that was just kind of numbing the neural pathways and making things feel better for me.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: So there's really that balance that you have to.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: That I had to go through to understand what is medication, what is therapy.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: You know what's working in therapy and where does that fit in the middle.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: You know some of the modalities, like neuromodulation, which is a modality of therapy.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: You know you have to be careful because if your mind is artificially happy or artificially I don't use the word intoxicated but if your mind is under the influence of these antidepressants, then maybe the neuromodulation or maybe some of the therapy won't work the way that it's supposed to because the neuropathways in your brain aren't natural and unaffected.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: So I had to find a balance with my medication, had to go through a doctor to do that and I learned that when I just withdrew or stopped taking them, then the side effects were really, really severe.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: So some of the side effects are terrible.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: You know sexual dysfunction is not uncommon and was experienced.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: Deeper depression during the times of transition, when I'm adjusting the medications, either adding or subtracting dosages, whatever that may be thoughts of suicide, those types of things, all of those things are side effects that the medication can do.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: But when balanced, when your medication is balanced and you're where you need to be.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: It softens the highs, it softens the lows.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: You can feel happy, you can feel sad, but you don't live in those places, you know.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: And consistency is also super important that I've found For me.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I have a problem remembering to take my pills, have a problem remembering to take my pills.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: So if I, especially recently, if I travel, then I may find myself forgetting to take pills for a day or two or five and I start to feel shitty again and I start to feel crabby and like an ass and arguing and fighting and my fuse is short and there's a temper right underneath the surface and I realize that I'm off my meds and I need to get back on and that's part of that withdrawal thing.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: And then it takes about two weeks to balance out again and then, once it balances out, I'm feeling better again.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: So you know, currently I'll just be honest with you where I'm at.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: I've been traveling a ton the last few weeks and I forgot to take my meds more than once.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: So therefore I'm in that place where I feel irritable, I feel crabby.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: When people cut me off, I want to ram them and run them off the road.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: I'm not really in a happy place, I just want to feel normal, and you know, I was talking to my wife the other day and I just want to feel normal again.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: I want to feel like I don't have to live on meds, like I don't have to worry about being an asshole all the time or being happy.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Why can't I be normal like everybody else?
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: And I think the answer is obvious, right, I mean, it's the career.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: It's a death of a thousand cuts.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: If I had a broken arm or a broken leg or something like that, I might take Advil or aspirin to help with the pain, or maybe something stronger.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: In this case, my brain has sustained so many injuries and you know possibly yours too that this medication kind of helps that.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: And you know, not everybody needs medication.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: It's going to be prescribed by your doctors.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: Not everybody needs it, but those that do should feel better about taking the meds than living in that depressed, sad, angry, volatile state.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: The key is consistency.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Taking the medications on a consistent basis is what will level you out, and that is something that I struggle with.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Who works with us, or worked with us?
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: And she, she and I did not get along.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: I didn't, she couldn't listen, she was argumentative, she, she and I just were oil and water.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: But I was trying really hard to be a good leader and a relational leader where I could build a relationship, make her feel like she's part of the solution, teach her along the way, and was trying to attack the problem that way, versus a dictatorship where I'm just trying to solve the problems, you know, and potentially move her out of her role and get somebody else in, etc.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: This case was a little bit slower so I had some opportunity to maybe mold and guide somebody versus fire somebody off the case.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: So that's what I'm trying to do.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: And she uh, comes into the office one day and confi and we're in the war room and there's about eight of us in the war room and she comes in and she's talking about, you know, struggling, and her moods are all over the place and she's described everything that I described to you guys earlier and you know what do I do.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: And by this time she's crying and you know, out of the eight or nine of us in the room, if there's eight of us in the room, six of us give her advice and six out of the eight tell her.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: You know we feel the same way and we're on medication.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: I take this medication and we look at each other like you do.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Well, I take this medication.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Well, I take that medication.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: Too, unbeknownst to us, we work together all the time and unbeknownst to us, six out of the eight of us in that room out of the eight of us in that room were all on medication for antidepressants or PTSD or depression, and either were currently on them or had been on them.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: So that was pretty eye-opening that this is something that, you know, the law enforcement community and maybe the community as a whole deals with.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: And we never told everybody because as we spoke around that room that day, everybody was embarrassed that they were on medication or had to be.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: But that's the kind of, that's the effects that this job has on you and if left untreated, it can be fatal, you know, and if it doesn't kill you, naturally it could cause you to kill yourself.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: Doesn't kill you, naturally, it could cause you to kill yourself.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: So if you went to the doctor and they're like hey, I've got good news and bad news, you got a serious illness and if left untreated, it could kill you, and if it doesn't kill you, you might feel so shitty that you wish you were dead.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: Your quality of life is going to suck.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: You won't be able to function in your work, your personal life, you know.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: The good news is this is highly treatable, it's effective.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: It can make your symptoms go into remission.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: You can restore your full health.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: You can get back to life.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: It's pretty low risk, it's readily available, it's covered by your health insurance.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: What do you want to do?
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Do you want to live a crappy life or do you want to, you know, get treatment for this?
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that most of us would say, hey, give me treatment.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, that treatment is an antidepressant and therapy, and it's going to take some work, but you can get there.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't think anybody would expect us to live in that crappy, crappy world that I just described, and that's where this young lady was.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: She was in that crappy world, but she was scared because of the stigma associated with taking antidepressants.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: I was reading recently in Police One.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: An article came up and you know I've researched this topic quite a bit because it's affected me and it's been something that I've dealt with directly and I found an article in Police One where we were talking, where they were talking to Dr Bill Lewinsky and for those of you who are in the law enforcement community you probably recognize that name.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: He is the executive director and founder of the Force Science Research Center.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Applies science to police activities response time, routine calls, critical incidents, officer-involved shootings, stuff like that.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: So they will take.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: How long does it take for the brain to respond, to formulate a plan, to initiate some kind of action, to execute that action, so on and so forth?
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: How long does it take to pull the trigger on a gun?
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: If somebody is running at you, you start shooting and they turn away from you.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: How long does it take for them to turn away before your finger stops pressing the trigger which might explain why they got shot in the back?
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: So that type of stuff.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: He applies science to law enforcement type activities.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Dr Lewinsky is a specialist in law enforcement psychology.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: He has been for more than 30 years and he's internationally recognized expert in police reaction times and lethal force encounters.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: So he said in his article, and I'll quote it most of the time that's required for you to react to a threat is taken up by perceiving the danger, processing the information, deciding what to do and sending commands from your brain to your body to react.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: The actual mechanical action of pulling the trigger to defend yourself requires only six, one hundredths of a second, a very minute portion of overall reaction time.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: The front end of reacting, so to speak, depends on your ability to pay attention to what is going on around you.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: So you pick up danger cues.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: If you're not or can't be attentive because of your emotional state, the rest is irrelevant.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: If you're depressed or preoccupied with your own sufferings or your own bleak view of the world, you're focused inward, not outward, on what's important, what your environmental cues are and what's around you.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Any effect on reaction time by antidepressant medication is minuscule compared to the profound impairment of cognition, information processing and survival-oriented decision-making caused by untreated depression.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: He goes on to talk about a Midwestern officer who shot and killed an assailant, but the officer's reaction times were so blunted by his untreated post-traumatic stress depression and disorder that he had difficult tracking radio calls.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: Remember that's what I spoke about in the beginning of this with me.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: I totally understand where this officer is at as far as his level of depression.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: The untreated depression, or PTS, that this officer is experiencing limited his abilities to perform the minuscule tasks, the everyday, routine, mundane tasks that it took to perform his job as a police officer, like taking notes, listening to the radio processing information.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Dr Lewinsky goes on to say many officers won't seek help for depression either with medication or through counseling, because they're afraid of the stigmatized for getting psychological aid.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Instead, they compromise their safety and effectiveness by trying to tough it out.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: That is exactly where I was want to go do it because I didn't want the stigma and I would rather just cry myself into my uniform every night in the locker room before I went out on shift, go out on shift, get into fights with every single person that I contact and then go home and pretend that my shit doesn't stink and that everything is okay.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Depression can arise from a number of different causes, you know, and these things I think we can relate to.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: But it could be your body chemistry, it could be your life experiences, it could be your work or personal experiences.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: It can be post-traumatic stress, issues that are undiagnosed or untreated of guilt, worthlessness, helplessness, loss of interest or pleasure in activities and hobbies that you once enjoyed, including sex, decreased energy, fatigue being slowed down, difficulty concentrating, remembering, making decisions, insomnia, early morning awakenings, oversleeping, bad dreams, negative thoughts, flashbacks, appetite, weight gain or loss, thoughts of death or suicide or attempts, restlessness, irritability, short fuse, temper, disproportionate response to stimuli All of those things are those signs of depression or PTSD that I experienced in my life and which ultimately went checked, but kind of unchecked, until it compounded to the time where I had to leave my job and end my career.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: If you're looking down the barrel of medication should I, shouldn't I?
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: There's a stigma attached to it.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Let me just say you're not the only one that has ever thought that.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: There are people you work with right now, whether in law enforcement, whether in the private sector, wherever you're at, there are people around you who suffer from depression, suffer from PTS, understand where you are and are probably medicated as well.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: So you are not the only person.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Feel free to reach out and talk to somebody and maybe help clear up some of the stigma.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: There are some questions that I considered as I was going through.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: You know my treatment and that is shouldn't I be able to get better without medication?
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: You know medication is not necessary to get better, depending on your level of depression, anxiety or PTSD.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: However, medication does help.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: It helps get you through those hard times, even if it's just a band-aid on your wound.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: It'll help you get through those hard times, even if it's just a band-aid on your wound.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: It'll help you get through those hard times and allow you to think clearly enough to get the therapy that you need and maybe recognize that you do have a problem.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: You're not broken.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: You just need some guidance and some counseling.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Medication is just another tool in your toolbox.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: How do antidepressants work?
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: Am I going to be under the influence?
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: Am I going to be affected by them all the time?
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: Is it going to affect my work performance and am I going to get in trouble if I shoot somebody and they do a blood test and I'm on antidepressants?
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: Antidepressants, anxiety medication, ptsd, medical treatments, those types of things.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: There's a ton of different medication out there, guys and girls.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: I've been on a lot of them.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: Some work really well, some don't.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: They affect the neurotransmitters in your brain.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: They affect the way that serotonin, neoprenephrine, dopamine systems work.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: They help correct the imbalance in your brain.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: That is an effect of the job that you do, your experiences you've had and the traumas that you've experienced.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: So that's how they work.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: They don't drug you, they don't make you high.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: They just literally affect the different systems in your brain and the neurotransmitters and they help balance things out.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Remember, they soften the highs, they soften the lows, so you can go down the middle and you don't live in those terrible places.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: Which medication is going to work best?
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: There's a ton of them.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: Just because you take one and it doesn't work, it's my experience that you don't have to say that all of them suck.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: You can't paint with a broad brush, go back to your doctor and tell them what's going on.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: I had to go back to my doctor and change medications a bunch depending on until I found the right one.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: What about side effects?
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: I was concerned about side effects.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: I was concerned about how this would affect my life.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: Some things I've experienced nausea, dizziness, drowsiness, nervousness or deepened depression during those times of transition sexual dysfunction, change in sexual appetite or interest, blurred vision.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: These are all things that I've experienced while taking medications.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: However, all those things are temporary until you find the right dosage, the right medication and you can kind of live that balanced life.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: I was concerned that I'd become addicted to them, and you're not going to become addicted to these medications.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: I've learned that they're not addictive.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: They don't have an addictive potential and you take them and then you can slowly get off of them.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Don't get off of them quickly or you're going to find yourself withdrawing, like I have, but they're not addictive.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: If you are considering taking medication, I would recommend going to your doctor, talking to your doctor.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: Put the psychological stigma out of your head and just go explain to them what's going on.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: Maybe medication isn't even the answer, maybe there's another option, maybe there's therapy, maybe there's something else that they can do.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: That is not medication, but you don't know until you ask, and sometimes we're scared to ask.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: So those are some of the things that I struggled with during my journey.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Those are some of the things that I questioned during my journey and had to overcome.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: My journey is not over.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: Like I said, literally as I sit here, I'm feeling like right underneath my surface there's a raging, pissed off guy and the littlest thing could set me off the edge.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: So it really just comes down to and that is my fault.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: It's my fault because I didn't take my meds regularly and I got off of them.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: So that's a me problem, not a medication problem.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: But you know, ultimately, when I was watching that WSP trooper and he gave the checklist and I realized that if I didn't do something I was likely going to kill myself, I went to the doctor uh, overcome the stigma, in hindsight being 2020.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: The stigma with it is not as bad as it was.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: Just like most things, the anticipation of change or the anticipation of an event, is sometimes worse than the actual event itself actual event itself.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: You know, I just wanted to put this out there because I feel like there's got to be somebody else that is feeling the same way I was and they're curious about the stigma and medication and how it affects you.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Like I said, I'm not a doctor Get a hold of your doctor but I am a cop that dealt with all of these things and I'm still dealing with them.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: That dealt with all of these things and I'm still dealing with them.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: At the end of the day, we deserve to live a healthy, happy life.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: We deserve to learn from other people's experiences.
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: This podcast is designed to be educational, informative and provide value, and that's what I wanted to do tonight.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: So, if you're still with me, hopefully you got something out of this and thank you guys all for listening.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: Feel free to reach out, send me a message, let me know your thoughts and just being vulnerable and transparent.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: I think that that is the way that we can grow in this community.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: So again, whether you're a cop or a corporate office employee, you probably deal with some kind of depression, some kind of sadness.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: Maybe you do, and hopefully I helped you tonight.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for sticking around, and that is the murders to music podcast.
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: You.