Latest / Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast / IFH 733: The Art of World Building - Immersive Screenwriting with Margaret Kerrison

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IFH 733: The Art of World Building - Immersive Screenwriting with Margaret Kerrison · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

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You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Indie Film Hussle
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Podcast, Episode number seven thirty three. The secret of becoming a good screenwriter
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is to write, Write, and keep on writing. Ken mcleid broadcasting from
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the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, where we
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show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of
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the film biz. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome
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to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast. I am your humble host
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Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of the Film Entrepreneur How to
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www. Dot filmbiz book dot com. That's film bizbook dot com. Well,
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guys, today on the show we have writer Margaret Carrison, and Margaret
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is a world builder and is an expert in immersive writing and storytelling, and
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she is a Disney imagineer as well as working on many other projects. And
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we go deep into how to build worlds, how to create immersive experiences not
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only on the screen, but what the future holds for us as writers,
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where we're going to be able to talk about themed entertainment and many other opportunities
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for writers and storytellers moving in the future, and how we can use a
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lot of these techniques in our storytelling and screenwriting now. So, without any
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further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Margaret Kiriensen. I'd like to welcome
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to the show, Margaret Carrison. How you do, Margaret? Hi,
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how are you? Alex? Thanks for having me on your show. Thank
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you so much for coming on the show. Like I was telling you earlier,
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I'm excited to talk to you. I've never spoken to an imagineer before,
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a former imaginaty former imagineer. Correct, I'm imagineer. But you worked
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with Disney as an imagineer for so long and there's so much myth and mystery
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behind that. That's that kind of position that Walt, you know, created
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all those years ago. So we'll talk a little bit about that and about
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your new book, The Immersive, Immersive Storytelling and all of that. So
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first, first question, how did you get into this business? Oh?
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Wow, that's uh, it's such a huge question, but I think I
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always want to start it with the fact that, you know, I always
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wrote all my life, I always created things. I've always loved to tell
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stories in every kind of medium. Like I was that kid who was making
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like finger puppets and like casting my family and friends into my own like skits
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on my like huge camcorder at home and everything. And I never really thought
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about it writing that is, and storytelling as a professional career because I didn't
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see that many role models growing up who were in that creative field. And
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you know, I was born in Indonesia and I grew up in Singapore,
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and at the time, like the creative field wasn't really that flourishing or anything
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like that, especially in Singapore. And when I moved to the United States
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for college, I was exposed to a lot more you know, writing classes
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and creative classes and just movies and TV in general, which I've always loved.
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So I had one. I did a screenwriting certificate course at Emerson College,
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and there was a professor there who encouraged me to apply to film school.
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And he had gone to USC, and he, you know, spoke
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all really great things about it, and he's like, you should really think
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about applying to film school, not specifically to USC, but I did apply
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to USC. I got waitlisted the first year, but got accepted the following
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year. And from there, you know, I was taking mostly writing courses
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for film and TV, and I didn't know about this whole world of themed
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entertainment. I didn't even know about the word imagineering until in my early twenties,
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you know, and I went to Disneyland all of that stuff, but
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I just didn't know that there were these magicians, these people behind the curtains
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doing this kind of work. And so it was really my thesis professor at
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the time. You know, she was talking to us about, like,
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you writers need to think about different industries to get into, not just film
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and TV. They need writers for games, they need writers for roller coasters,
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and she was going on and on, but I remember just pausing,
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being like, they need writers for roller coasters, Like who does that?
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That sounds awesome, That sounds like something I totally want to do. And
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that night, you know, I was just searching on the web like all
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kinds of information about like what does that mean creating writing for themed entertainment and
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everything, and I was basically just sending emails to people to the companies based
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in LA and introducing myself and trying to get into my foot into the door.
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And so one of those companies got back to me, and that's BRC
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Imagination Arts in Burbank, and I met with the founder, Bob Rogers,
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as well as a handful of other people, and they were really really receptive
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and open to having someone like me come in, and especially they're very very
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you know, they love having writers and working with writers and everything. So
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that was really my first professional job into this world. It was a lot
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of museum design I worked on, like experience centers for like Heineken and a
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cosmetic company named Amoi Pacific. But it opened up my world to this possibility
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of telling stories using all of your senses. It's not just looking at watching
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a story unfold on screen. It was really experiencing it and feeling it and
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being immersed in that story of a place. It's really interesting because as you're
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telling this story, I mean, I mean, obviously I've been to Disney
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World a million times. I've been to Disneyland in Universal and all this kind
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of stuff, And when you're in these kind of rides, as a writer,
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someone had to sit down and go, Okay, when the ride gets
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to this point where when the audience gets to this point, this maybe the
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smell comes up, Maybe this, this water comes up, the heat pops
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up over here, a light pops up over there. So it's a lot
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there's there's a lot more thought and its It seems more complicated than just writing
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a narrative screenplay, which is as difficult as you can get in the writing
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arts. Oh, definitely, definitely, screen is the toughest thing you could
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do, so I imagine this is another level, even harder. Almost.
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Yeah, it is challenging because you know, you really have to work as
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team. I think a lot of writing, at least in my experienced screenwriting,
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because I had help to write feature film scripts for independent directors and also
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for children's animation and all of this. It's really a very solitary craft.
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For the most part. I'm sitting with my laptop, I'm writing. I
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occasionally get notes, occasionally have meetings. But writing for immersive storytelling and for
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themed entertainment in general, experiential design, there's so many different names for it,
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and that really you have to work together with all the various disciplines to
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figure out how you're able to tell that story and share that story in all
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of these different disciplines. You know, everything from graphics to media to architecture,
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to what you're eating in the experience, what you're hearing, what you're
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smelling, what you're sensing, the characters you're meeting, all of that,
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right, you have to work hand in hand with a talented group of people
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who are experts in the various fields that they're working on, and being able
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to be the story champion to really kind of rally everyone together to make sure
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they're building the same world, the same thing, the same story, the
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same context to all of these to whatever story you're working on. That's the
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challenge, and it's tough because you know, as artists, as creatives,
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we all have our different interpretations of what that story can be. And so
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being this you know, world builder storyteller, you really have to ensure that
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everyone is aligned to that creative intent and making sure that you're all building the
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same place. So that's really the challenge of it is really how do you
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work as a team to move forward together. Will be right back after a
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word from our sponsor and now back to the show, and to really think
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about, you know, what is that heart and soul of a place and
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how does that manifest into design, into music, into words, into graphics,
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into moving media, all of these things. It's one big orchestra,
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you know, for lack of a better analogy, it's how do you have
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all these different instruments come together to make this beautiful symphony? Is it kind
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of like working in a writer's room, because that the writer's room has very
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similar ideas to that, Like everyone's got to be together, there's one person
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who's leading the charge, the showrunner, and everyone's there to service that show
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or that vision and kind of working. Is it kind of like that?
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It's so different. It's so different because in a writer's room, it's mostly
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writers or people who are have a very strong under standing of story, and
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sometimes you're going to work with people who don't have a good or strong understanding
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of story. Right, So I think that, uh, you know,
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in a writer's room, you typically do have a showrunner with a ton of
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writers who are you know, throwing out ideas and all of that stuff.
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It's never that, it's never that simple, you know. It's it's there's
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a lot of trying to you know, gather people or meet with people individually,
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trying to uh socialize an idea by you know, there's no one process
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or anything like that in that is like a tried and true method, and
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I think, like in writing my book even I try to, you know,
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uh, simplify as much as possible what would go on in that process.
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But ultimately, every project is different, every team is different. Depending
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on the scope of your project too. If you're working on a smaller museum
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versus a sixteen acre land, you know that's going to be that's going to
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be very different, right, So I think that ultimately you have to have
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this open communication in order to you know, make that plan, set up
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that strategy, and it involves a lot of people coming together, you know,
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holding hands and marching together towards towards the finish line. So so then
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how did you get involved with Disney and becoming an imagineer? And first of
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all, what is the definition of an imagined Disney imagineer? A Disney imagineer
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is you know, Walt Disney had created this word of imagination and engineering and
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put it together to make up this new word of imagineer because really it's a
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combination of art, science and technology innovation, always pushing the boundaries and always
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trying to find new magical ways to surprise and delight people. And there was
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no greater master storyteller than Walt Disney himself. I mean, he was such
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a visionary. He really thought about, you know, the different ways that
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people can feel like they're immersed or participate in a story without merely watching.
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Right, Like the story of him sitting in the park bench watching his daughter
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write the carousel in Griffith Park and how he was thinking about, how do
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I take part in that? Why am I just sitting here? Why can't
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I be involved in that too? And why can't I participate and engage in
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play with my children? You know? So I think that imagineering and imagineers
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in general, they are really they come from all kinds of disciplines. So
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you have people, you know, architects to you know, audio engineers,
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to writers, to creative directors, producers, everyone that makes all of the
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various products and experiences for the Disney parks, resorts, cruise lines, all
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the wonderful things that you experience in any of the parks and resorts and cruise
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lines. So it's a really cool job. It's you know, I spent
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seven years at imagineering and met some of the best most talented people ever in
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the industry, and it was really, you know, in seven years,
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I felt like it was a masterclass in everything in environmental storytelling and how to
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work as a team, in really working with some of the greatest ip on
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Earth and trying to you know, adapt that into a story world in which
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other people can experience it. So it was a very very magical health journey
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for me, you know, for lack of a better word. And I
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think that it's something that I can see, you know, a lot of
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people having ideas of like what imagineering is, you know, before they come
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in to experience what that's really like. But ultimately it's a lot of work.
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You know, it's a lot of work, and there's a lot of
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fun and play in it too. But we take that play very seriously without
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question, which I have to I have to ask you being a massive Star
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Wars fand you got to play, you got to play, and you got
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to play oh yeah, oh yeah, in that in that playground. Oh
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yeah, honor, Oh my gosh. I mean has worked on Galaxies Edge,
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which I haven't had a chance to go to Galaxies Edge yet. I
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do because of the pandemic and all that that, I haven't gotten there yet,
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but many of my friends haven't and I've seen obviously videos and images of
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it. What was what you were story consultant on that, right? No,
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I was. I was working full time at Imagineering, so I was
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the story lead for the Star Wars Galaxies Edge, and I was I worked
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on a whole everything Star Wars for in my time there. So my first
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project was Star Wars Launch Bay, which was in both Disneyland and in Disney
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Hollywood Studios. Worked on Hyperspace Mountain, worked on Star Wars Galaxies Edge,
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worked on Star Wars Galactic Star Cruiser, all the Star Wars activations on all
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the cruise lines as well. So I pretty much had a you know,
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the privilege of a lifetime working with Luke, our Lucasfilm partners, who are
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amazing. I mean, they really set the bar really, really high for
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us, and we did not take that lightly at all. You know when
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I remember one of the very first meetings for Star Wars Galaxies Edge, and
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we had, you know, turned to the Lucasfilm story group and asked,
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you know, what kind of stories are they expecting from us and all of
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this, and I remember Pablo Hidalgo, who's one of the executives in the
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story group was saying, you know what, we haven't told all the stories
17:03
in Star Wars, so we'd like to hear from you what you think the
17:07
stories should be. And that was really empowering to hear that, you know,
17:11
and I think that that that's really the magic of being a Star Wars
17:18
fan is that you know, you have this like great you know, power,
17:26
responsibility to carry that torch and try to really figure out a way to
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understand like what made Star Wars star Wars? You know, what made people
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over the decades, you know, come back to it time and time again.
17:44
And George Lucas. You know, you can't talk about Star Wars without
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talking about George Lucas and what a powerful story he had created and touched so
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many lives, generations of people. You know, I was an eighties kid,
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so you know, I grew up with the original trilogy and all of
18:02
that stuff and the power and the magnitude and the cultural phenomenon that is Star
18:07
Wars and how that is integrated into everything in our lives. You know,
18:12
forty plus years later, people are still saying me, the force would be
18:15
with you and everything like that, right, like it is part of our
18:19
society. Like, if you don't know Star Wars, I don't know where
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you've been living, you know, your whole life. So at one point,
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even if you haven't seen the movies, you've heard of Star Wars.
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You know what the Force is, you might know what Yoda is, probably
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know who baby Yoda is, even though it's growth. Yeah, but you
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know what I mean. No, that must have been so much fun working
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in that way, and it's and it's in a different scope than John Favra
18:47
or David Loan or any of these other creators are doing because you're you get
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to actually build the universe that people get to walk in and and things that
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we've seen on screen for so many years. You get to walk into a
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cantina, Yeah, you get to see the Millennium falcon, you get So
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it must have been as immersive. You must have been geeking out for years.
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Oh yeah, it was amazing. I mean, you know, we
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started off talking about that bucket list of all the things that we wanted to
19:17
do as Star Wars fans. And the amazing part was in our team there
19:22
were like the people who really knew very little about Star Wars. They don't
19:26
know the difference between Star Wars and Star Trek. And then you have the
19:29
people on the other end of the spectrum who read you know, Arabish and
19:33
they were are basically our resident Star Wars expert, right and everyone in between.
19:40
So I think that it was so neat to work as a team to
19:44
talk about, well, what is the bucket list for all the things that
19:47
you want to do in Star Wars. The Cantina was way high up,
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right, Like, we want to go to the Cantina. We want to
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you know, not only ride the Millennium Falcon, but pilot it. We'll
20:00
be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the
20:07
show. We want to be in an epic battle between the you know,
20:12
the Light Side and Dark Side. At the time, we didn't even know
20:15
about First Stort or any of that stuff, right, We didn't know about
20:18
Kylo w Ren when we were starting this process. You have to remember that,
20:22
like, there was no The Force Awakens and it was very top secret,
20:27
you know, and so we only got little tidbits of what was coming.
20:33
But we always knew like, okay, if we don't have the details
20:37
of what The Force Awakens was going to be about, what do we know
20:40
about Star Wars, that will always be true. There's going to be droids,
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there's going to be awesome ships, there's going to be species, Aliens,
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you know walking around. There's going to be the Light Side, the
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Dark Side, Jedi, you know, Sith, all of that, right
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the Light Side, Dark Side, the Force everything. So that was it.
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We had a lot to work with, but we didn't have like specific
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details until you know, pretty like maybe a few months a year into the
21:08
project as we're building it, and from there we had to be flexible enough
21:12
to say, Okay, it has to be this era, you know,
21:17
it has to be these characters, all of that stuff, right Like.
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We had to work closely with Lucasfilm to do that because we couldn't just do
21:23
whatever we wanted. I mean, we had to make sure that everything was
21:27
in canon, everything was going to be you know, in helped to evolve
21:37
the stories and the you know, the brand, the franchise, all of
21:41
these things. So we had a really really huge responsibility. That was a
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great honor and privilege, but boy was that a lot of pressure on us.
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I can't even imagine. By the way, did you ever get to
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meet George No, I didn't no. But you know what, It's funny
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because I had I had seen him before when I was an intern a long
22:02
time ago. But I never got to see George because he wasn't you know,
22:08
involved in the creation of the land or anything like that. By then.
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He had, you know, sold Lucasfilm for billions of dollars all of
22:15
that stuff. So he did come to visit when we opened the land and
22:19
everything, but no, he wasn't part of the process in a direct way.
22:25
Yeah, my god, I got to meet him. I got to
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meet him once, Oh did you? And you know what it was?
22:30
And he was next door to me in Burbank having lunch, no way,
22:33
and I'm like, oh, I see it in Burbank. It was right
22:37
before the sale, before anyone knew about the sale. So he was he
22:40
was, he was meeting at Disney and he's just having lunch next door.
22:44
And I had a had just happened to have a Star Wars lunch box.
22:45
I got over. But anyway, how much of it? Did you ask
22:48
him to autograph your lunchbox? I actually didn't have that. I didn't have
22:52
the cojones to do it. So I had the receptionist, the older receptionist
22:57
walk up to him and ask him to break it out to me. Oh,
23:02
I knew because it's because I knew he wouldn't see He'd see me coming
23:07
a mile away, but he wouldn't see her coming. Ah. He was
23:11
like sixty five, like this, obviously, this woman's not gonna bother me.
23:15
And then mister Lucas, my friend over there, he has a launch
23:18
but you just sign it. Oh and it was his daughter. He's like,
23:22
Dad, sign it, and I go make it out to me because
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I'm never selling it. Uh. That's my that's my quick George Lucas story.
23:30
But yeah, women saved the day for you, the receptionist and the
23:33
daughter. Actually, I've been surrounded by women in my tire life. I've
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not testosterone in my house at all. All I have is women everywhere constantly,
23:41
my daughters and my wife, and love it so love it. She
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had this new book about immersive storytelling. What is immersive storytelling and how can
23:51
it be used in the screenwriting and television work because that many, that many
23:55
people are gonna have the opportunity to tell the kind of stories you were telling
23:57
with Star Wars and that kind of stuff. But what lessons can you pull
24:02
out of that to apply to television and feature films. Yeah, you know,
24:07
immersive storytelling is such a broad term to encompass this idea that you want
24:14
to be able to tell a story in a medium that you can experience,
24:18
and that meaning that you're you as a visitor, as an audience member,
24:23
are part of that story because in a lot of the traditional media, which
24:27
I love by the way, you know, reading books and watching film and
24:30
TV and all of that stuff, you don't have a part to play in
24:33
that story. You're pretty much a passive observer viewer of those stories. But
24:40
an immersive storytelling, we're seeing a lot of this really popping up all over
24:45
the world right where you can go into a place and suspend your disbelief,
24:51
meaning that you, for that moment, feel like you're in that world,
24:56
in that place that the creator has created, you know, for you,
25:00
and this creator storyteller is using different tools and techniques in order to make you
25:06
believe that you're in that place, that you are present and in that moment.
25:11
And I think some of the most powerful immersive storytelling are the ones that
25:15
transport you into that world. And so there's so many different examples of that.
25:21
Right, there's really you know, tiny museums or galleries or even stores
25:25
retail stores that does that. When you walk in, you're like, holy
25:29
moly, what is this place? Right immediately you're transported into a different dimension.
25:34
And then there's some that you go into you know, that are places
25:38
for you to explore and to discover. And so I use a lot of
25:44
different examples in my book, everything from the museums to the really you know,
25:48
epic theme park lands and attraction sort of thing and everything in between,
25:53
because I think that there isn't any one true model per se of life.
26:00
This is what immersive storytelling should be because I think once we can define the
26:04
optimal or you know, the peak of that experience, I think we we
26:10
would have failed. I think we always need to continually develop and evolve what
26:15
that means. And I think that now with a lot of various organizations and
26:21
companies trying to figure out like how do we blur you know, the real
26:26
versus the virtual and digital and all of this stuff, I think there's going
26:30
to be an even bigger, broader meaning of what immersive storytelling is. But
26:36
ultimately, it is a place for you to physically be present and to feel
26:42
transported into a whole other world and to be able to use all of your
26:47
senses as a human being to understand what is real to you, Because what
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is real besides your own you building your perception of reality right everything from there
27:00
to ar to real life experiences where there's nothing virtual or digital, anything virtual
27:06
or digital about it. So, you know, even when I'm thinking about,
27:10
like talking about real and imagined worlds, sometimes they're one and the same,
27:17
I feel. So I think that it's a really great opportunity for future
27:22
storytellers and the next generation of storytellers to think about how they can really push
27:27
that, because can you imagine even a few decades ago, a couple of
27:32
decades ago, we can't even imagine being able to do something like this right,
27:37
like you and I talking, you know, in real time and being
27:41
able to see each other then see and hear each other in real time in
27:45
such a way. And who knows, five years, ten years from now,
27:49
what could that mean, you know, to be able to do something
27:55
that is you know, being present with someone else, something that's social,
28:00
something that is emotional as well. How do you think about telling stories in
28:07
an immersive way that touches upon all of those things. So what are the
28:11
different kinds of immersive storyteller? Oh my goodness, I mean it's a thousand,
28:18
I know, but just a couple. I mean, everything from you
28:22
know, it's funny because like people would argue that reading a book is immersive
28:27
if you're a very if you're really into a book, right, you can
28:32
fully immerse yourself in it, you can forget about you know, time goes
28:36
by, right. So I think that there, It just really depends on
28:40
how you define it. But I think that you know, everything from really
28:45
cool museums, like I think about one of the examples that I brought up
28:48
in my book was the the National Museum of African American History in Washington,
28:56
d C. And going through that experience and feeling complet deletely immersed in that
29:00
starting from the bowels of a slave ship and rising up and just going from
29:06
Florida, Florida floor and climbing up to that to experience that entire history and
29:11
ultimately realizing that American history is African American history. So going through something like
29:18
that was extremely you know, immersive for someone like me, and I think
29:23
it's very you know, subjective for a lot of people, right, some
29:26
people might feel differently about what's immersive and what's not. So museums to me
29:30
are extremely immersive. I mean there's examples that we're seeing with places like No
29:36
Wolf, you know, where they have a whole bunch. It's an artist
29:38
collective where they're creating a place where you can play and engage and go down
29:45
slides. There's the first one, who was House of Eternal Return in Santa
29:49
Fe, New Mexico. There's another one in Vegas, and another one in
29:53
Denver, Colorado, and one coming out and I believe Austin, Texas will
29:59
be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the
30:06
show. And it's a playground for all ages basically, right. You can
30:11
let loose, you can interact with things, you can go explore these really
30:17
bizarre rooms that at first site may not have any meaning. But then as
30:23
you go through and do their little games and interactives, you uncover and discover
30:30
all of these things that are just kind of a layer underneath what you thought
30:36
was, you know, your perception of the world, and then you uncover
30:40
that there's something hidden all along. Right, what's really interesting about what you're
30:44
talking about. Is that for so many people listening, you know, they
30:47
think that screenwriting a movie, you know, writing a movie or writing a
30:49
television in television the only two ways that you can write in entertainment. Many
30:55
you know, a while ago I had a video game writer on which was
30:59
a fascinating how that that? Man, I'm like, how big is the
31:02
scripted? Like, it's six feet tall? We need six feet tall.
31:04
It goes literally the six feet from the ground all the way up of papers
31:10
and that's the script. It's like, I'm like, why, And so
31:12
there are other ways to do it? And I'd have to imagine that there
31:17
is less competition in this space than there is in the screenwriting television space,
31:23
but probably less opportunities as well. Is that a fair statement. I don't
31:30
know if there's less competition. I think there's uh, you know, there's
31:34
always a it's a very small world, this whole industry, and I think
31:40
there's always this healthy competition of wanting you know, whatever the competitive company or
31:48
theme park, whatever it is. Right Like, we never had any ill
31:52
feelings towards someone who would open and experience that's truly immersive, because that challenges
32:00
us to be better and for people who are really interested in this kind of
32:05
immersive storytelling industry, I think that that healthy competition is very good. Oftentimes
32:10
these companies collaborate with each other too, so I don't think it's it's this
32:15
fierce, you know, dog dog like competition or anything like that. I
32:20
think that, you know, when I was an imagineer and went to Harry
32:25
Potter The Wizarding World of Harry Potter for the first time, I was so
32:29
impressed, and I even mentioned it in my book as one of the examples
32:34
of really excellent immersive storytelling. So for me, as a fan of immersive
32:39
experiences, I want more and more and more of it, and not only
32:43
that, I want a variety of it too, from the really small experiences
32:46
to the really epic ones. So for me, I think that, yes,
32:52
it is there is a healthy competition between all of these between all the
32:55
companies that work in this field. But I also think that there are opportunities,
33:00
but it's probably not as mainstream as like thinking about, like, oh,
33:05
track going for the writing job in gaming or film or TV, because
33:08
oftentimes these listings or these job postings aren't posted, and it's a lot of
33:15
word of mouth and it's all a lot about relationships and networking and working with
33:21
the smaller companies first or a consultant, you know, and then moving yourself
33:24
up from there. So it's not as easy, I would say, to
33:28
get into that door. But that's changing because there's a lot of colleges and
33:31
universities now that are offering programs in themed entertainment, and so there is this
33:37
understanding or appreciation for the fact that our kind of work is very nuanced and
33:44
very you know, it's it's it's different in that you have to think about
33:50
storytelling in holistic, multisensoring type of perspective rather than writing words on a page
33:59
and ding it off to someone who'll do who knows what with it, right,
34:02
So I think that it's a lot more of a collaborative industry that you're
34:09
looking into. So what tips do you have for writers trying to create worlds
34:15
in their stories, regardless of the story. Are there any tips or ideas
34:20
or things that you can tell them about how to move from just telling a
34:22
story to creating worlds. I mean, George Lucas was the master of that.
34:28
Walt Disney was a master of that. Yeah, because when you create
34:30
a world it just goes on and it started. I mean, Geene Ronberry
34:36
was you know, famous for that obviously as well. So how do you
34:38
have any advice for screen readers? You know, I think that my main
34:45
thing is always the question of why are you telling this story? And why
34:50
are you the best person to tell this story? And you know, with
34:54
all of the other things aside of like, of course you want it to
34:59
be fun and he wanted to be engaging and all of that stuff. I
35:01
think those are the two important questions that I always ask whenever I go into
35:06
any project is why should I care? You know, because, like me,
35:09
the creator storyteller, if I don't care and I'm writing this or creating
35:15
helping to create this, then no one's going to care. Because you know,
35:20
as human beings, we empathize with any sort of universal human truths.
35:28
And George Lucas knew that well when he was creating Star Wars, right,
35:31
he knew about you know, there's it's very shakespeare in you know, like
35:36
Star Wars about how, oh my gosh, the villain this whole time was
35:39
my dad, Like it's so Shakespeare. You know, wait a minute,
35:45
it's sorry, It's sorry, spoilet for you, you know, but it's
35:49
that sort of thing that like, it's always these universal themes and these universal
35:53
human truths. So that's now, like, you know, only in the
35:58
past few years do I really understand when people say, write what you know
36:02
and all the feelings, all the emotions that the stories that have happened to
36:07
you, Like, how do you take all of that and bring it into
36:12
the stories that you're helping to create? Right, Because if you're just you
36:17
know, taking a template of something else or or you know, you watch
36:22
something or you experience something, oh yeah, let's do that and let's do
36:24
it our way sort of thing, it doesn't feel true, it doesn't feel
36:29
genuine. And so that's kind of my advice to screenwriters is, whenever you
36:35
write your story or script, like ask that question of like why are you
36:39
telling this story? Why should you care? Because that's gonna you know,
36:45
influence why other people should care. And what's that universal truth or theme that
36:50
everyone can resonate with that doesn't feel like it's superficial, that doesn't feel like
36:54
it's you know, something you've seen or heard of before. You know,
36:59
you want to be as unique and as personal as possible, you know,
37:06
like when I talk to or read sometimes writing samples from writers, and it's
37:12
very you can tell that there's a lot of influences from other movies or you
37:16
know, scripts and things like that. Right, it's just the same thing
37:20
over and over again. And I think there's a lot of fear and insecurity
37:23
as a writer to want to expose that deeper side of you. And a
37:29
lot of the times I think about it, I'm like, you know what
37:31
I think as a as a writer, you have to write about your traumas.
37:37
You have to write about the things that you know killed you inside,
37:43
that disturbed you, that really bothered you, that really hurt you, you
37:47
know. And in addition to the traumas, you also write about your triumphs.
37:52
Right, you write about the things that, like, you started really
37:57
low and you worked yourself up to being able to succeed in the end.
38:01
So what are those cases or situations or scenarios in your life where you went
38:07
from that trauma to triumph? Right? And that's a character arc, that's
38:12
a story arc. How do people transform and change in your story? Because
38:17
no one wants to cheer for someone who has it all in the beginning of
38:22
the story, right, unless the story is about a person who has it
38:23
all and then loses everything in the end. But what is that arc when
38:28
you're thinking about it? And so I think that really drawing upon your own
38:32
personal experiences and really going there, you know, all the really uncomfortable places,
38:40
the places that you think that no one would understand. Believe me,
38:44
people will understand, especially if it's more specific and more personal to you.
38:50
I think that there's going to be you'll be surprised to find out that there's
38:53
going to be a lot of people who feel like, holy cow, Like
38:57
I totally resonate with that. You know, I know what it's like to
39:00
you know, be a parent in that situation, or a child in that
39:05
situation, or a friend or whatever it is. Right. So, yeah,
39:08
event even Star Wars had George Lucas it's about his father. Yeah,
39:14
yeah, exactly, it was about his relationship with his father, right,
39:17
And so it's a certain way. And you know, after speaking to so
39:21
many different successful writers and directors, I realized that years ago that I realized
39:27
that the thing that makes them all successful is that they are able to tap
39:30
into their own unique uniqueness, their own secret sauces. I call it that
39:34
Nobody else has. I mean, Tarantino is a secret sauce. As you
39:37
get, there's nobody else on the planet. He's not trying to write like
39:39
somebody else. Many other people are trying to write like him, right,
39:44
you know, I remember, Yeah, who is this Chris? Oh gosh,
39:50
you're mentioning all my heroes. Yeah, I mean, I mean,
39:52
who can write like Chris Nolan. There's nobody else on the planet really,
39:57
maybe his brother because they write together. We'll be right back after a word
40:02
from our sponsor and now back to the show. But there's there's such a
40:12
unique perspective that comes from them, and that goes for directors as well as
40:16
writers. Oh definitely. You have to be brave enough to be you have
40:20
to be brave, and you know that's a lot of the times. You
40:23
know. I remember watching pulp fiction for the first time when I was in
40:28
high school, and I was floored. I didn't know what was going on
40:31
and what is this like, you know, I know this is a movie,
40:35
but what is this like this format, this nonlinear storytelling And there have
40:39
been nonlinear story telling before, you know, Citizen K and all of that,
40:43
right, but there was such a fresh, unique perspective to it and
40:46
the characters that he wrote that are so unique and so interesting. Right at
40:52
the end of the day, they're interesting people with interesting problems, and you're
40:58
rooting for them. Is aspicable as some of those characters are. You know,
41:02
you're you, you can't help but kind of explore what that you know,
41:07
not everyone's just you know, it isn't just black and white a person,
41:12
right, there's a gray area there, and what is that grey area?
41:15
And how do you really explore and really reveal that in a movie and
41:21
a story and a script that makes it interesting for people? And you know
41:23
he was is a master of that. So I completely agree with that.
41:30
It's like, you know, what is that thing that you know makes you
41:34
feel kind of uncomfortable? You you should look into that. As a writer,
41:37
you know, go go into that, go deep into that and really
41:42
uncover uh. And you know, if anything, it's some kind of self
41:46
therapy too. As a storytell writer. Absolutely, my first my first book
41:52
was a complete therapy session. When I read it, it's my own story,
41:54
it was just like you do go deep into things, and you I
41:58
would skip chapters because you know where I had to go visually, I had
42:00
to go emotionally to go there, Yeah, because I was like I don't
42:04
want to go there. It was in our corner with the door, and
42:06
like I don't want to open that door. Yeah. But then like when
42:07
you go in there, you're like, oh God, I'm here again.
42:10
And but that's where but that's where, that's where you mind the best stuff.
42:15
If you look at any of the if you look at any successful writer,
42:20
especially when they're starting out, that's where they start coming out with these
42:22
kind of things. And maybe later on, you know, after years where
42:28
they have such a mastery of the craft, they can apply it to any
42:31
story and kind of still put their taste and flavor on it, but doesn't
42:36
have to be as personal. But when you're starting out personal I mean the
42:38
personal story is or the personal connection. I mean, like we just said
42:44
with Star Wars, George Lucas, I mean Darth Vader and and Luke were
42:47
him and his father m hm now wrapped in up insane, Yeah, wrapped
42:53
out exactly, but there was a pore there that we all can relate to,
42:57
like, oh, our parents don't understand us to each extent. We
43:02
just want love and acceptance. You know that that's for you to kill me
43:07
with the force, you know, yeah, exactly exactly. You know.
43:10
It's it's so universal, like anyone can understand that, right, And I
43:15
think that like a lot of people are like, oh yeah, I don't
43:19
watch like, you know, those fantasy films like you know, Lord of
43:22
the Rings or Harry Potter, because there's just two out there. And it's
43:24
like, if you look at all of those stories, they are they feel
43:30
more real, you know, to our our ordinary lives more so than you
43:36
know, some of the other stories out there that try to be set you
43:38
know, that try that that are set in the real world, you know.
43:43
And I think that that's something that as storytellers and writers, you just
43:47
go back to again and again. It's like a lot of these themes are
43:51
recurring, and we want and especially like during these times right when there is
43:57
so much uncertainty in the world, we want and need storytellers to help us
44:04
navigate through this crazy, crazy road, process it and process it and make
44:09
us feel less alone. Because when you tell those stories and people resonate with
44:15
it, you have done you great work in terms of being able to open
44:22
up people's minds and eyes. And every time they read your book or watch
44:28
your movie or play or TV show or experience and walk out with new eyes
44:32
and see a better world, a more hopeful world that they want to live
44:37
in. Then you've done your job well. You have helped to transform people's
44:42
minds and open their minds and eyes into what's possible. And that's exactly what
44:47
we need to do as storytellers. And it's interesting though, as you were
44:51
talking, the thing that came into my mind was when you see these big
44:55
movies that create these massive worlds, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter,
45:00
Star Wars. The reason that those films are successful is not only because they
45:05
built these beautiful, insane, wonderful worlds, but but the characters are so
45:13
universal, they themes are so universal. You know Avatar and what what Jim
45:17
is doing, uh with I think he's doing five more? I think so,
45:23
I think three or five, I don't know. It's ambitious. Yeah,
45:28
it's five more. He's like, I'm gonna I think I heard a
45:30
quote he's I'm gonna die in Pandora because this is it. This is He's
45:35
in the Avatar baking business, he said, for the rest of his life.
45:37
He's yeah, Pandora or bust. Yeah, I mean that this is
45:40
basically the way it's gonna go. And come on, we have to mention
45:45
the Marvels cinematic universe. Well, I mean, then that's been immerssive,
45:50
but that's been immersive storytelling. When Stanley created that kind of world back in
45:54
the comic books, and that's what comic books are. It is very I
45:58
mean it's world building. I mean comic book absolutely, that's all they do.
46:01
But we've never really seen it done in cinema before. Yeah, and
46:07
what they've been able to do, whether you like them or you don't like
46:08
them, it is it's world building. And I'll use another example of a
46:14
more contemporary film, Top Gun. Oh my gosh, oh I have I've
46:19
watched that so far twice in the theater, Oh my god, so good.
46:22
One in a you know, just whatever, normal theater, AMC,
46:27
and one in IMAX. And I have to say when I was when it
46:32
was thirty five years ago that I went to watch it. I was eight
46:37
years old and I brought my eight year old son at the time, he
46:40
was a last year you know, whenever it came out, and I brought
46:44
my eight year old son to watch the sequel. And it was amazing.
46:47
The sequel was way better, you know. So yeah, but do you
46:52
want to talk about immersive storytelling in a cinematic experience. There's a reason why
47:00
it's now number six of all time, which is insane for a insane which
47:05
is the longest time it's ever taken to do a sequel in the history of
47:08
cinema, thirty six years, thirty six years for it to do its whole
47:14
round. And when I was watching it, it's just like, you are
47:17
in that world, but you also are you also care about the characters,
47:22
and there's also a little nostalgia that that dabbled in for all us older folk,
47:28
you know. But my kids saw it and they didn't know the first
47:30
one. I was trying to explain to them. The first one. They're
47:31
like, who's Goose? And they're like, what happened to Goose? I'm
47:35
like, well, then they see it in the movie, You're like,
47:37
oh, okay, it is. But that's such a really interesting way to
47:43
look at story. What they did exactly, and you know, and that's
47:46
kind of the going back to this idea of immersing yourself and transporting you into
47:54
that world and wanting to be with those characters and wanting the story to never
48:00
end, right, And that's the most important thing about immersive storytelling is that
48:06
once that movie is over or the TV show is over, there's a hunger
48:12
and a need and a desire for people to fulfill their deepest wishes of carrying
48:19
out, you know, in their hero's footsteps and you know whatever they felt
48:23
like being able to fly like you know, Tom Cruise, like Maverick,
48:28
right, being able to be up in the sky and doing all those crazy
48:32
the dog fight, all of those things, right, Like, how can
48:36
you, as an immersive storyteller extend that story and continue it so that people
48:42
can always go back to it way after that movie ends or way after the
48:47
TV show or whatever it is ends, right. How do you think about,
48:52
you know, doing making games for it. I mean I remember after
48:55
watching Top Gun on Imax, my husband, who's a huge Top Gun fan
49:00
as well, started, you know, wanting to play with the micro Microsoft
49:04
simulator because he got oh no, the new one. No, yeah,
49:08
oh yeah, yeah, exactly. They have a top Gun version. I
49:12
think it's a Microsoft has a Top Gun version, but one of them has
49:14
a Top Gun version, and so it's being able to you know, continue
49:20
that like going on that journey again and again and again. Right. It's
49:24
so interesting because when I saw Avatar for the first time, and I only
49:28
see an Avatar in three D on the theaters, I don't like three D
49:30
movies, but when Jim does it, it's done bright. So I remember
49:36
getting I went and bought the game because I wanted to live. I want
49:37
to go back to Pandora. I wanted to just kind of walk around it,
49:40
and I wanted to be in it. Yeah, all of that.
49:44
And I know there's a Pandora Experience at Disney's. Well I got to go
49:46
to as well. But it was just it was one of those times when
49:50
I just felt he built such a beautiful world. We'll be right back after
49:55
a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show that I wanted
50:05
to kind of just go in and live in and those in ten, fifteen,
50:10
twenty years, what kind of entertainment will be based off of Star Wars
50:14
and Harry Potter and this kind of stuff, and where we're going to be
50:16
able to go with all of that. It's pretty remarkable as storytellers what we
50:21
can do. There are no limits, right, There are no limits,
50:25
right, And that's the thing that I think a lot of writers need to
50:29
understand is I've also seen movies that try to build worlds. The movies fail,
50:35
Yeah, because the story didn't work or the characters didn't work. They
50:38
got too busy building up the environment, but they forgot what was really important
50:43
about the environment. Because Star Wars you can throw that in feudal Japan and
50:47
it works. Yeah, the Wild Wall West and it works. You know,
50:52
Mandalorian is basically the Wild Wall West in space. I mean that's basically
50:57
limit Yeah, and it's a lot of it is like, you know,
51:00
understanding what the character archetypes that people really gravitate towards. But also in that
51:07
you know, the journey in fact, like if you think about the more
51:10
difficult or challenging the journey is for the character, the more compelling it is
51:15
for us because we want to know. It's like are they going to make
51:20
it? You know, especially if you've fallen in love with those characters.
51:22
I mean, my I keep bringing up this example because I rewatched it all
51:29
over again recently with Squiggin and having all of the characters, every single one
51:35
of them, you know, all the main characters again, some despicable,
51:37
some likable, you know, most of them despicable, and being able to
51:43
go on that journey with them. They're very very unique journey. I mean
51:46
that movie is so stellar in so many ways just in terms of the like
51:52
cinema visually cinematography, but the writing and the acting and the directing was just
51:58
that completely immer into that world, right to the point where after I had
52:04
my second run of watching all of the you know, the first season again,
52:08
I felt like, Okay, I want to go out. I want
52:10
to I want to experience these games, you know, not to die.
52:14
But then like, oh, it's about the says you want to do red
52:15
like red Light? Do you want to be a red like red Light?
52:17
Is that all right? You and me Alex were gonna go on the playground
52:21
and play red Light and green Light? Oh my god? Because I remember
52:23
watching it too, and you want to talk about is it? You know?
52:29
And that was a beauty. The beauty about that story is that it's
52:30
a world that I particularly didn't want to go into. That world it was
52:36
I didn't feel like I wanted to go in there personally. It's a pretty
52:38
jacked up world. I don't want to go I'll go to Blade Runner World.
52:43
Yeah, Star Wars. I'll go to a bunch of other places.
52:45
But that's a really what you knew that everybody was gonna die except one,
52:52
the one that was gonna make it, and you just really didn't know.
52:57
Every episode got closer and closer. It was just a brutal beauty. Yeah,
53:02
watching that that thing And and to use another contemporary show that I consider
53:08
this, I consider the career the writer one of the best riders in Hollywood
53:12
right now. Taylor Sheridan. Oh, yes, Stone, I mean you
53:15
watch it. Yeah, And as I watch Yellowstone, I'm like, do
53:20
I want to buy a ranch and and and ride horses? Now? Is
53:23
that what I want to do? Like? Because he makes it. He
53:28
writes it so beautifully and romantically and even with warts and all. I mean
53:32
it's a pretty brutal show. Yeah, but it's just She's just like,
53:37
man, I think I want I think I need a horse. I think
53:39
I mean, I I think I need to buy ten thousand acres and just
53:44
roll free. But it's it's inspiring you to want to do something, to
53:50
want to be someone else, right, And I think a lot of immersive
53:52
storytelling is that aspirational quality, is that you know, not only does it
53:58
inspire you, but you aspire to be like that character or live in that
54:01
world or live that story, whatever it is. And that's what stories should
54:07
be like, right, Like they should have that feeling of I wanna I
54:10
want to experience that, I wanna, I wanna walk in someone else's footsteps
54:16
for a while, I want to experience a place that I've never been to
54:20
before? And what does that? What does that mean to me? You
54:22
know? And I think being able to think like that is only going to
54:29
do good in our society. Be having that curiosity and having that desire to
54:35
want to expose yourself to different worlds and people and situations and all of this
54:39
can only make us grow as as people. So I think that that's so
54:45
important. And everyone again, like everyone has their own preferences to what that
54:51
world is to, you know, what kind of environment or people they want
54:54
to be around all the time. But it's having that idea that you can
55:00
live differently, that you can aspire to something better or greater or more like
55:07
yourself, because let's not forget the people who are actually living their lives and
55:14
not feeling very good in their own skin and having those worlds or stories expose
55:20
them to who they truly are. So I think that that's also extremely interesting
55:24
for people, you know, if they design an avatar for themselves and they're
55:29
like, that's that is what I want to look like, you know,
55:32
And that's the basis of cosplay. I mean, that's where you go to
55:36
a comic book convention. And I remember taking my wife to my first comic
55:39
book convention a decade ago, and she was fascinated by grown adults, yes,
55:45
superheroes. She would stop them and I'm like, what do you do
55:47
for a living. I'm an attorney, I'm a doctor, and really,
55:52
yeah, we just do this on the weekends because we love it. But
55:55
it's a way to feel like you're in that story. You're trying there.
56:00
That's their attempt to be part of the story that means so much to them.
56:05
Story is such a powerful thing. We as human beings can't live without
56:07
story. It is part of ours. I wouldn't say it's as important as
56:10
water and food, but after water, food and shelter and the other things.
56:15
Sure, yeah, yeah, outstory, we don't function. I mean,
56:19
even if it's if even is to tell you, hey, John just
56:22
died around the corner because there was a tiger there. That's a story that
56:27
helps us survive, exactly. And it was, Yeah, it was a
56:31
survival mechanism. It was a way for us to communicate, don't go to
56:35
that part of the woods or wherever, right, it's a way to you,
56:38
exactly. It was cautionary tales. A lot of the children's fairy tales
56:44
started off as cautionary, but then it became inspirational, aspirational and entertaining and
56:47
all of these things. But stories serves so much, so many different purposes,
56:52
but ultimately it's really a reflection of ourselves and you know, wanting to
56:59
experience different worlds and stories that help us to understand who we are and why
57:05
we're here. Amen, sister, Amen, preach, preach. Now.
57:09
I'm gonna ask you, if I'm gonna ask a few questions, ask all
57:12
my guests, what advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the
57:15
business today? Keep writing. I know that a lot of writers are waiting
57:22
for the magical phone call. But that magical phone call does not happen unless
57:29
you work for it. So writers, you got to write, and even
57:32
if you're not getting paid for it, you got to write, you know,
57:36
your whatever it is. Like, if you're going to write a book
57:38
or a play or script for feature film or TV, write something you're super
57:45
passionate about. Don't worry about who's going to buy this or read this or
57:51
any of that. Write the story. If there's only one story that you
57:53
got to tell before you die, write that story. That's my advice.
57:58
So that when someone does come knocking on your door and you want to share
58:02
that story, then that's the perfect time to do it. And you gotta
58:07
you gotta write. I think that that's something. You know. I meet
58:10
a lot of young people who are like, I'm gonna be a writer one
58:14
day and I'm like, what are you writing now? And they're like,
58:17
oh, I haven't written anything for a while. Writers, right, you
58:22
got to write. That's my absolutely. Now. What is the lesson that
58:25
took you the longest to learn, whether in the film industry or in life.
58:30
Oh boy, wow, that's a good one. That's a good one.
58:37
You you know, one of the best lessons that I keep learning again
58:42
and again and one that I you know, yeah, I didn't learn until
58:49
like maybe into my thirties or something that as you rise up you got to
58:53
bring people up with you. And I think that that's so true. And
58:59
I have had a lot of mentors in my life, and I see how
59:02
they do that, and I'm starting to realize how important that is. That
59:08
when you do find success in whatever you do, you got to bring people
59:14
with you. The people's the people that you like, but people that you
59:16
trust, you know, And I think that you got to give back.
59:22
You got to give back what you got. And that's something that I think
59:25
a lot of you know, when you're first starting out, it's you often
59:30
think about you know, me and me, and how do I get ahead
59:32
all of that stuff? And how do I get to the top by stomping
59:36
on people or whatever it is? You know, I think that that's that's
59:38
not how the world works. You know, be kind, be gracious,
59:43
be generous, and be generous with what you know and you know who you
59:47
know. And I think that that's something that I always remind myself of.
59:53
You know, every day, we'll be right back after a word from our
59:59
sponsor and now back to the show. No matter you know what I'm doing.
1:00:07
I think that you've got to treat people. You got to treat people
1:00:09
right. And three of your favorite films of all time. Oh no,
1:00:15
don't ask me that. Oh my god, that come to mind today.
1:00:19
You will be on your gravestone. Don't worry. Wow. Oh, I
1:00:25
mean I there's so many movies that I go back to again and again.
1:00:35
I mean recently, I've been you know, I was. I rewatched this,
1:00:39
uh, I mean mad Max Fury Fury Road. Oh my's so good,
1:00:45
so good. And you see a black and white version. Oh no,
1:00:49
I didn't actually have to watch oh okay white, okay, okay,
1:00:54
but I read the book on the making of the movie and everything. I
1:00:58
was just like, holy moly, like all the various things that had to
1:01:01
happen for this movie to even exist was a miracle in itself. It didn't
1:01:05
even script. It's just craziness, and that is it was. I felt
1:01:15
like it was creativity, unbridled creativity. You know. There was just the
1:01:19
costuming and like the makeup and just some of the words that people were saying.
1:01:23
It's like, what is this right? That beautiful chaotic mess Like I
1:01:29
wasn't a mess at all. It was beautiful. And the thing I love
1:01:31
about that is like from the director of Happy Feet and the Oscar Running,
1:01:37
director of Happy Feet Comes Road, like what going on? So true?
1:01:47
It's so true, Oh my gosh. But Charlie's Throne is amazing in it,
1:01:52
and like, I mean, she can play anything, but she was
1:01:54
really great in it. Uh, two more? Do I have to say?
1:01:58
Two more? Oh my gosh, there's so many, you know.
1:02:00
I like one of the movies that I rewatched over and over again when I
1:02:06
was in high school and well college, I think was Chunking Express by one
1:02:10
Car Why And it was such it was so beautiful and quiet. But I
1:02:16
love the character development. I love just just how it was such a there's
1:02:22
simple stories about everyday characters, you know, and that also reminds me of
1:02:28
Lost in Translation too, like that I can watch over and over again as
1:02:31
well. So so many, I mean, I won't talk to you anymore,
1:02:40
Margot. Where can people find your new book? So as of yesterday,
1:02:45
my book is available everywhere Amazon, Target, in your local bookstars.
1:02:52
I think that I'll definitely available online in your local bookstars. So really anywhere
1:03:00
and hopefully anywhere. So immersive storytelling for real and imagined worlds, A writer's
1:03:07
guide, and I'm actually having a book signing if you're in Pasadena California on
1:03:13
September ninth at seven pm in the Roman's Bookstore in Pasadena too, so it'll
1:03:19
be really great to see some people there as well. Margaret, it has
1:03:22
been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for coming on the
1:03:25
show, and thank you for building these worlds that we're walking in and experiencing
1:03:30
and inspiring future storytellers of the future. So I appreciate you, my dear,
1:03:36
Thank you so much. Oh, thank you so much, Alex for
1:03:37
having me. It was really fun talking to you. I want to thank
1:03:42
Margaret so much for coming on the show and sharing her knowledge with all of
1:03:45
us. Thank you so much, Margaret. If you want to get links
1:03:47
to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show note
1:03:50
d anyfilm also dot com forward Slash seven thirty three. If you have it
1:03:53
already, please head over to Filmmaking Podcast dot com. Subscribe and lead a
1:04:00
good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot, guys.
1:04:02
Thank you again so much for listening to guys. As always, keep
1:04:05
that hustle going, keep that dream alive, Stay safe out there, and
1:04:09
I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Indie film Hustle Podcast
1:04:13
at INDIEFILM Hustle dot com. That's I N D I E F I L
1:04:16
M h U s t l E dot com.