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Compassion, Science and Healing with Dr. Nick Brüss · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Thepist podcast. My name is Ga Macpherson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. Here we go, So
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome back.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Very excited finally to talk to my guests. Doctor Nick Bruce, Nick, welcome.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Thank you guy, thanks for having me all right.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: So, Nick is the leading expert in psychedelic assistem therapy
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: and a licensed therapist. He serves as a clinical researcher
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: and supervisor on the FDA Phase three MAPS trial using
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: MDMA for PTSD and as a lead therapist on Compass
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Pathways psilocybin trial for treatment resistant depression. A specialist in
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: internal family systems therapy, Doctor Bruce has shared his work
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: at UCLA and Yale. He's also a certified mindfulness facilitator
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: and compassion cultivation teacher, blending science, compassion and innovation and healing. Nick,
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  Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. Before we go and share with
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: the listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Sure thing.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Originally from a small town in the Midwest called Belleville, Illinois.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Outside it's in southern Illinois, but it's outside of Saint Louis.
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  Speaker 2: So we grew up there and then moved west in
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: southern California, Los Angeles, Santa Monica. Currently.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, all right, so let's get right into it. How
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: does this story start for you?
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: How it starts for me is disconnection mid or early
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: twenties in a pursuit of I'm trying to think of
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: what it would be at that time, but it was like, Okay,
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: I'm supposed to like make a bunch of money and
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: I'm supposed to like build a lot of things. And
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: that took me to Hawaii with a friend in a
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: boat building company. Actually didn't know much boats, but thought
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: this was an opportunity, and so we started building boats.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: And it was during that time that I had kind
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: of a quarter life existential crisis, like what is really
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: going on? From there, I went into a study of philosophy,
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: and through my own reading of different philosophies, I came
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: across Buddhist philosophy, which is basically a psychology. Deepening in
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: that psychology like wow, this is where it's at. This
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: is a study of humanness and human beings relating. So
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: I poured into that ended up at grad school at
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: the California Institute of Integral Studies and really got curious
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: and interested about what it's like being a human along
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: the developed or built upon a mindfulness practice that definitely
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: plays into the work I'm doing now. And then psychedelics
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: came later, given that I was an athlete in high
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: school and in college, and so drugs this was this
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: bad thing and it might have kept me off the field.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: So I wasn't going to mess with those things. And
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: of course the stigma of this is your brain on drugs,
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: and it's kind of like for crazy people, or it
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: makes people go crazy. So I kind of heard the
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: stigma and was nowhere going nowhere near psychedelic medicine early on.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: It wasn't until in grad school I heard about some
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: of the benefits and then some trusted friends telling me
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: about their experiences, and then I saw firsthand through them
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: the power and impact of how these medicines can really
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: help therapeutically. So I kind of came to this medicine,
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: to the potential of psychedelic medicine during grad school.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: When you were in grad school, what was the kind
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: of tipping point where you thought I guess talk more
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: about how you're entree into psychedelics, because it was interesting
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: when you said, you know, you didn't want to get
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: anywhere near drugs. You know, that's kind of where I've
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: I've come in. Well, maybe we'll talk about that a
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: little bit later. But how did you get from you know,
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: the existential crisis to well Buddhism and then psychedelics. What
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: was that tipping point in the sense.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the tipping point kind of was homegrown, really a
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: deeper dive with the support of mindfulness meditation to notice
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: what's actually going on. Like very jumping back now, very
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: young kind of looking. I remember looking around and seeing
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: adults and other people, like everybody seems to just be
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: like kind of going with this thing of being alive.
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  Speaker 2: I wouldn't have said consciousness back then, but they're just like, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: this is just we're humans and we're here and we're
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  Speaker 2: doing this thing that on some level always fascinated me.
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  Speaker 2: And as I as an adult young adults, started to
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  Speaker 2: turn towards what's actually going on in this experience. I
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  Speaker 2: started to relate to my body and my mind differently,
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  Speaker 2: just with more curiosity, not just taking it as this
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  Speaker 2: is just how it is. So I started, you know,
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  Speaker 2: from a basic mindfulness practice of learning to relate to
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  Speaker 2: thoughts as thoughts, sensations as sensations, and emotions as emotions.
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  Speaker 2: And that was really kind of the foundation. And I
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  Speaker 2: feel very fortunate to have that as a foundation and
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  Speaker 2: then learn about psychedelics because these medicines can be rocket
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  Speaker 2: fuel for consciousness exploration and also healing. So I had
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  Speaker 2: a foundation and kind of learning about the landscapes of
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: my human experience, about my mind, about my body through meditation,
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: and then later on adding these kind of amplifiers. So
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: what was the kind of tipping point is when people
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: that weren't trying to sell me anything or try to
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: get me, weren't saying something's wrong with me or even
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: wrong with them, and that they have to do something
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: to kind of become something different that they had had
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: experiences held in a certain way. And this is key,
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: and this is why I'm really glad we're talking and
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: I'm excited to I feel drawn to let people know
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: that the container and integration is such a big part
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: of working with these medicines. When my friends, some friends
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: would tell me about their experience and what they learned
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: about themselves and then how that was kind of showing
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: up in their daily life. I was like, ooh, that
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  Speaker 2: is so very different than what I learned about, you know,
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: an egg frying in a pan, and you're you're going
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: to be you know, left up after that.
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  Speaker 1: What was your first experience?
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  Speaker 2: Very fortunate? Actually, I'll name two first experiences. The first
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  Speaker 2: psychedelic experience that I had, there was no medicine involved,
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: there was no substance involved. It was on a long
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: meditation retreat. It was at the Insite Meditation Society in
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Western Massachusetts. It was a three month meditation retreat all day,
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: you know, fourteen plus hours a day, sitting and walking,
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: being present with whatever is arising, developed great concentration or
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: in a stretch, and then at some point some resistance
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: came in or something started to clench and resist the
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: experience of this openness that was already happening. And then
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: after that my mind. So one day on this meditation,
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: long meditation retreat, my mind opened in a way that
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: mimics were similar to the psychedelic experiences that I've had
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: with medicine much later. So during this retreat, my mind
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  Speaker 2: I had this kind of psychedelic experience. I appreciate having
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: already as I mentioned earlier, at a foundation and noticing
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: aspects of experiences arising and passing. So at the end
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: of that experience, which maybe was a couple hours, fear
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: snuck in and I'm like.
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  Speaker 1: Oh no, this is bad.
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  Speaker 2: I'm now going to either be a crazy person or
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to be able to relate to people.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: So then I got to witness fear arise. And then
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: I went to sleep that night on the meditation retreat,
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: hoping praying that this went away, and it did. In
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: that I woke up and I kind of was back
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: to an ordinary state, though shift something changed and it
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: broadened my worldview, my mindset that wow, there's more here
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: than I once thought. So that's the first experience with
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: a psychedelic experience without medicine. I so appreciate a friend
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: in grad school who had been studying psychedelics for a
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: while and was in therapy grad school, and he gifted
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: me a psychedelic assisted session that mimicked the MAPS protocol.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: So MAPS is the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies or
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: a nonprofit that for the last several decades have been
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: leading the push to make psychedelic medicines available for therapy
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: and even to go further to be you know, or
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: insurance companies to provide funding to make this possible by
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: making it legal. So you provided the space, the medicine,
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: and also the container, which I'm sure we'll talk about,
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  Speaker 2: included preparation, actual experience, and then the integration. So I
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  Speaker 2: had a very loving and warm and safe entry into
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: working with these medicines. And I put that kind of
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: next to I mean dozens, if not one hundred experiences
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  Speaker 2: that I've heard of other people whose first exposure or
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  Speaker 2: experience with psychedelic medicine was took LSD. Didn't know how much.
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  Speaker 2: I was out at a concert and I ended up,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: you know, hugging a subwolf for the rest of the night,
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: crying scare for the next several months.
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  Speaker 1: Right, that's a very vivid picture what that first or
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: second experience of yours. What medicine are we talking about.
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  Speaker 2: I'm talking about mdm A, okay, and I have come
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  Speaker 2: to know that as a in some ways a gentle
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: entry to psychedelic medicines. So mdm A for your listeners,
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  Speaker 2: it's not a classic psychedelic medicine meaning LSD, psilocybin, mescline.
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  Speaker 2: Those are kind of the classics. And what's different about
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: it is MDMA doesn't tend to kind of add visuals
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: to your field. It can alter your visual field. But
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  Speaker 2: what MDMA really does is it turns down the fear
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  Speaker 2: in one system and neurocircuitry in their brain, and then
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  Speaker 2: with that it then opens up trust.
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  Speaker 1: So I felt.
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  Speaker 2: I had a very loving experience and then being informed
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: by internal family systems, I was able to meet with
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  Speaker 2: these different parts of myself with more openness, more compassion
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  Speaker 2: just flowed more than without.
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  Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, I'm a just reminder one. I'm speaking with
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  Speaker 1: doctor Nick Bruce here. So you started to have these experiences,
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: what did you do with them? What we were thinking?
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  Speaker 1: Were you a therapist at this time? Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I actually started as a para professional before grad school,
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: seeing clients way back in two thousand and seven, And
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: when I had this experience, I was like, wow, one
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  Speaker 2: of and it's probably one of the most uttered phrases
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  Speaker 2: when people are doing psychedelics and a safe container. For
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  Speaker 2: the first time, I said, I can't believe this is illegal.
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  Speaker 2: The reminder to your listeners, like most psychedelic medicines. All,
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  Speaker 2: nearly all psychedelic medicines are currently illegal in the United
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  Speaker 2: States at a federal level. So my experience of of
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: it was very loving, it was very healing, it was
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: very positive. And while the medicine wears off, and again,
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: this is what I feel like, given my experience and
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: kind of how I orient it is, the message I
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: really want to come through is the medicine is great.
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  Speaker 2: It's very helpful, specifically when held in a safe container,
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  Speaker 2: meaning it's in a relationship. There's preparation, there's thoughtfulness and
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: care and safety provided during we'll call that navigation, and
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: then they're absolutely plan and engagement with integration. We'll talk
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  Speaker 2: more of that, I'm sure, but that when this is,
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: when it's held like this, this can be really profound
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  Speaker 2: catalyst for healing. I'm holding psychedelic medicines as catalysts. They're
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  Speaker 2: not a magic bullet. They're not you're not gonna you're
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: likely not going to have an experience, and then bah llah,
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  Speaker 2: I'm all better that way I've been relating in romantic
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  Speaker 2: or or in business. It's not just gonna be dissolved,
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: but you're gonna be able to see more clearly, You're
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: you're likely going to be inspired to look further into Oh,
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  Speaker 2: what are these parts of me that kind of respond
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: in this very rigid or very chaotic kind of way.
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  Speaker 2: We're gonna it's gonna stoke some curiosity. So medicines can
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: be catalysts for our healing, but we need to take
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  Speaker 2: the reins in that, and I hope therapists or really
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: support people in taking the reins and have integration ongoing
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: much longer after the medicine wears off.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: So do you offer trainings for these do you offer
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: trainings for therapists in general, people in general? Or how
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: are you in? What capacity are you utilizing these medicines?
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so currently it's in private practice and work with people.
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  Speaker 2: And even that has shifted from the regular kind of
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: model of general therapy meeting I know your therapists or
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: have been and meeting week to week kind of open
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: ended I found, and I get the feedback from clients
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  Speaker 2: that having a container of three months, so that we
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: had a beginning, middle, and end and let's go for
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: the roots of what you're here to discover and uncover,
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: and let's also build the practices and habits that support
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: you long after our three months or so together. So
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: that's kind of the focus of a lot of work.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: I also do a lot of training with different training
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: organizations or trained clinicians and physicians, mostly to work with
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: Ketemy because that's what's legal right now. And I teach
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: a lot at the intersection of psychedelics and internal family systems.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: This model that works is very synergistic. And then one
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: other piece I'm I'm also writing a book with Harper
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Collins which demystifies the psychedelic assisted therapy experience.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: And my main.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: The kind of subtitle has in it with or without
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: psychedelic medicine. So psychedelics again can be a great catalyst.
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  Speaker 2: Nobody needs them. They can be helpful. But what we
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: take away and how we integrate it into our life,
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  Speaker 2: that's the real shift in transformation of durable healing.
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  Speaker 1: There is out there the thought in our culture, the thought,
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  Speaker 1: the idea that, yes, you know this experience where these
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: psychedelics can be helpful, and yet oftentimes there's a thought
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: that they're difficult to drive to direct. They're kind of okay,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: it's going to go in this way or is it
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: going to go in that? We don't know is that
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: a correct assumption. Is there validity to that?
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely? I think that's a very important piece, and it
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: comes up in preparation that we're essentially one building a
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: relationship as support before, during, and after a psychedelic experience,
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: and that during the psychedelic experience, it in one sense
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: lets you reminds you you're not in control, because yes,
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: medicines can show or while on a medicine, it can
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: show you unconscious material that maybe was not part of
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: your intention, like oh, I'm here to work on making
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: more money, and yet I see a childhood experience that
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: really needs my attention right right. So it's really part
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: of the preparation that we do connect with an intention,
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: but then we hold it with an open hand and
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: we listen to what arises and we get reps and
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: actually practice in meeting. Okay, can I open to can
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: I be with what's arising? And then one other piece,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: and it's why I'm so passionate about having safe settings,
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: which include a skilled a guide guide not so stoked
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: on the word guide, because it's like, well, if I'm
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: walking with a guide, I want the guide to know
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: exactly where we need to go, you know, I don't
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: want them to know where we need to end up.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: But the reality is is the client knows, and so
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: I might support or the therapist is a support to
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: help the client connect with where they need to go
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: and that knowing is inside. Obviously, it's very safe and
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: supportive to have a hand literal I'm talking physically, a
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: hand to hold to remind them that her body is
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: right here and it's safe. It might be a reminder, hey,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: let's take a big breath, and that can kind of,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: you know, our minds or psyches apart, can kind of
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: grip down on a thought or an idea, and one
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: breath can shift the focus back to this energy that
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: is our body that is always moving.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: So what you're saying now, are you talking about are
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: you describing the experience with all medicine or just MDM
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: A thank you.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: So I work with a number of medicines and ketamine,
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: which is prescribed by a clinician as part I'm sorry,
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: by a psychiatrist a physician m d m A, which
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: has been part of the research study, and also psilocybin,
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: which is part of the research study. But I also
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: licensed licensed in a number of states, including Colorado, where
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: it's it's legal to work with psilocybmin. So these medicines
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: are a bit different, and they also there's a number
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: of differences. Shall I describe some of those.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: Let's take take take a couple of those.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, and so m d M A as as
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: we were talking talking about it. One the experience tends
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: to last. The medicine comes on and it lasts for
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: about four to six hours. So this MDMA is a medicine.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: It's been around for over one hundred years. You take
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: it as in the form of a pill and it
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: turns again, turns down the activity in the amygdala, the
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: kind of fear center of the brain. So when that
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: gets turned down, trust gets turned up, and it provides
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: this space neurochemically and in the room with a trusted
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: guide guide with a trusted therapist to turn towards potentially
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: traumatic or just uncomfortable material. So parts of your life
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: that maybe it were somewhat traumatic or there was neglect,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: and you're able to meet with these parts that have
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: had this experience with more openness, we're now or less
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: prone to kind of eject into the ways we normally
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: avoid those challenging feelings. So the medicine MDMA can support,
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: and that's what it was studied for for severe actually PTSD.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: I can talk more about the study. So Ketamine is
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: a molecule created in a lab. It's generally an anesthetic,
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: so it's used in every hospital around the world. Every
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: ambulance you see has it in it. It has a
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: very safe it has a great safety profile. By that
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: I mean compared to like morphine, which if you give
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: somebody morphine, you need to really monitor their cardiac, ac
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: and respiratory systems. Ketamine is softer and safeter in that
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: you don't need to monitor so closely. And when we're
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: talking about the therapeutic use, we're talking sub anesthetic, So
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: you don't take ket and then you're just you're in
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: like a complete dream land the entire time and you
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: don't remember anything. You're not in nethlos tizes, but rather
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: there's an alteration and it can create a little bit
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: of space. One example is a client first time working
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: with ketamine and again sub anesthetic dose. Twenty or so
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: minutes in, they're like, oh, this is what my body
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: is like without pain. Wow, They're dealing with so much
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: pain they forgot what their body feels like without just pain,
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: pain pain, and then that opened the door to work
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: with you know, their relationship with pain, relationship with their body,
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: and relationship with the things that they were coming to
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: therapy for.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, this you know, listening to talk, it's very
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: exciting to me. It's also very scary to meta. Before
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: we started, you know, you asked me, can we talk
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: about your experience? And I was like, or lack thereof,
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: I'm excited, I'm scared period. Yes, are you?
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: Are you down to share a little bit more about
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: that a little bit?
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been kind of wind down here. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: it's it. I kind of on the continuum of like,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: you know, depression or anxiety. I'm further on the anxiousness scale.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: I don't like my, my, my. You know, drug experience
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: has been very limited in my life. I had a
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: very bad experience with pot that must have been laced.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: That freaked me the hell out when I was in college.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: So that that gives you a little background. Uh, you know,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: the loss of control is big.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's big.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: It's big. It's big.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: And check this out. So the medicines, in of themselves,
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: they're not gonna have a particular outcome. But if we
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: partner with these medicines in a safe or safe enough container,
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: and for you, in the bazillions of people that kind
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: of go or more tilted towards anxiety than depression. My desire,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: my hope, is that people will include those parts. So again,
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: as far as internal family systems and for your listeners,
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: it's just we're all made up of different parts. It's
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: the natural state of the psyche, and that some parts
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: of us run really anxious, and that we can actually
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: include those so we don't blast through them, we don't
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: numb them out, make them go to sleep, but rather, hello, anxiety,
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: let's actually be in a dialogue and a relationship with it.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: And I'm talking before the medicine. So when I'm working
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: with someone and we're preparing, I'm asking you kind of
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: these same questions, like what are the concerns, and then
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: they might go I have no concerns at longer.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Let me just say something. I've interviewed many people on
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: this topic, and you have an incredible way of not
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: only articulating the specifics of psychedelics and how it's utilized,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: but you truly do have this sense, this presence about you.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: That is very calming and assuring. It's awesome. Thank you.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: I'm immediately turned to and I have flashes of teachers
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: and therapists that I've worked with. It's maybe hard earned
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: in that I've I turned towards my fear.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: Allah. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, yeah, we're gonna have to
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: have you back. We're going to have to have you
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: back that. There's a lot more to talk about, but
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: uh yeah wow. All right, So listeners here, therapists of
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: all kinds, uh, people in the mental health space, what
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: do you want them to know about what you do?
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I guess less about thank you for the for
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: the for the prompt and less about what I do,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: but what you what they can do as they which
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: is essentially encourage curiosity around this subject, like whatever you
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: grew up with, Trust me, there is more research that
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: will soothe those certain parts of you. And then ah,
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: there's more information coming out about kind of what I
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: said about my friends, some friends early on describing their
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: experience of working with a medicine and then how it's
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: impacted their life. So my encouragement is for everyone to
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: stay open to the safe ethical use of psychedelic medicines.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: They are not a panacea. They're not a silver bullet.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: They're not going to solve everything so that we can
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: partner with them and we can accelerate or or or
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: create more access to greater healing.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: Awesome, Nick, how do people contact you and find out
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: what you're doing?
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm having fun putting some things out on Instagram,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Doctor Dr Nick Bruce b r u s S on Instagram.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: My website is a practice offreedom dot com. Okay, and
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: I would be stoked to come back and talk more
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: specifically about the book, because again, the book is really
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: about with or without psychedelics, what are the practices we
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: can be inspired and encouraged to take into our daily
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: life to basically make integration a daily practice.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Awesome. Okay, we'll have your site linked up here at
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: the show notes page at the Trauma theverspodcast dot com. Nick,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: thank you so much. We'll be in touch.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: Guy, so welcome.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Thank you all right, man, take care