Latest / The Book Deal / How to create best selling survival thrillers and writing for all ages with Sarah Armstrong

Transcript

How to create best selling survival thrillers and writing for all ages with Sarah Armstrong · The Book Deal

0:09
Tina Strachan: This is the Book Deal podcast
0:11
Madeleine Cleary: where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
0:15
Natasha Rai: We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
0:25
Tina Strachan: So no matter what stage of writing your at.
0:28
Tina Strachan: We've got you covered.
0:29
Tina Strachan: I'm Tina Strachan.
0:30
Madeleine Cleary: I'm Madeleine Cleary.
0:32
Natasha Rai: And I'm Natasha Rai.
0:34
Tina Strachan: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors
0:37
Madeleine Cleary: one deal at a time.
0:43
Madeleine Cleary: The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
0:56
Tina Strachan: Sarah Armstrong is an award-winning and best-selling author of children's fiction, and in this episode of The Book Deal podcast, we have a wonderful chat about the success of her first survival thriller, Run, and we touch on the very big topic right now about boys and literacy, her brand new middle grade survival thriller, The Wave, how to write captivating settings that draw readers in, and how she transitioned from writing for adults to writing for children.
1:21
Tina Strachan: We chat about how her uber critique group has helped her and how you can find your own group, and she offers us some hot tips from her years as a writing teacher Sarah Armstrong, welcome to the Book Deal Podcast.
1:38
Sarah Armstrong: Thank you so much, Tina.
1:40
Tina Strachan: Sarah, I wanted to start our chat today by congratulating you on all the accolades that you've received recently for your middle grade survival thriller, Run.
1:52
Sarah Armstrong: Thank you.
1:53
Tina Strachan: It's There's a lot of them, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna go through them.
1:56
Tina Strachan: You've been shortlisted for the CBCA Book of the Year for Younger Readers.
2:00
Tina Strachan: You were shortlisted for the Davitt Awards for Children's Crime Fiction.
2:04
Tina Strachan: Also for the, the REAL, the R-E-A-L Children's Choice Book Awards.
2:08
Tina Strachan: Longlisted for the ABIA Book of the Year for Children for Younger Children, and it's an Amazon number one bestseller.
2:15
Tina Strachan: Sarah, tell me, that this is like a dream run.
2:18
Tina Strachan: Excuse the pun.
2:19
Tina Strachan: Can you tell me how it feels to have your work recognized so widely like that and why do you think Run has resonated with so many of your readers?
2:29
Sarah Armstrong: Look it's, it does feel a bit like a dream because, you always hope a book will do well, but they don't always do well.
2:36
Sarah Armstrong: And even good books, there are many good books out there that don't necessarily get the recognition.
2:41
Sarah Armstrong: So I try and take both accolades and criticism with a bit of a grain of salt.
2:48
Sarah Armstrong: I don't I'm not trying to sound ungrateful or anything like that, but if you buy too much into either, it can affect your equilibrium as a writer, I think.
2:57
Sarah Armstrong: So it feels just wonderful, and I hope that it means more people will read it than might have otherwise,'cause, the word gets out.
3:05
Sarah Armstrong: But I try not to let it sway me too much, and I try and just stay focused on the w- my relationship with the books and with the writing.
3:14
Sarah Armstrong: And as to why Run has resonated, I think that it really is just, survival stories are suddenly just a bit popular, and I didn't That wasn't a thing where I thought,"Ooh, I think survival stories are about to be popular." It's just I really love survival stories, and always have, so I wrote one.
3:32
Sarah Armstrong: So I think it's a little bit of that, and I try and write my, survival thriller stories and make them really pacey, really page-turnery, which I think can help pull in those readers who might be a little bit l- more reluctant to read a kind of book that's quite, just prose, thick text.
3:51
Sarah Armstrong: Solid.
3:52
Sarah Armstrong: It might be help pull them in, but also grab those more enthusiastic readers.
3:57
Sarah Armstrong: And with While it's very sort of pacey and page-turnery, I really try and work in lots of themes and ideas and relationships- And it's a li- feels like a little bit like a, it's a bit of a Trojan horse, it's this thriller, exciting story, but inside I've got lots of, to me, interesting ideas and themes that I enjoy exploring as a writer.
4:22
Sarah Armstrong: I enjoy both the craft of writing something that's really pacey, and exploring ideas that are meaningful to me.
4:29
Sarah Armstrong: 'Cause I just always end up exploring versions of the same thing, and I think most writers do that to a degree.
4:36
Tina Strachan: That's such a good answer.
4:37
Tina Strachan: For on a few points then, I think what you were saying initially about just not letting it sway.
4:43
Tina Strachan: It's great, and it's not that you're ungrateful.
4:45
Tina Strachan: It You completely are grateful for all these accolades, but not you can't let it really change who you are and how you write and how y- your whole craft and how you respond to all these sorts of things.
4:55
Tina Strachan: So I think that's a really beautiful response.
4:57
Tina Strachan: Do you think that I'm hesitant to bring it up, but the reading for boys thing.
5:03
Tina Strachan: Well- It's been quite big as- It's been really big, hasn't it?
5:09
Tina Strachan: Yeah as many people who are on socials have seen recently.
5:11
Tina Strachan: But, perhaps at the moment,'cause it It's always been a, a thing and people, searching for or looking for more books for- All audiences regardless of, genders or, and or anything like that.
5:23
Tina Strachan: But perhaps it's just, yeah, w- it's more that we're just looking for maybe a few more books that are that fast-paced because we know that all kids, regardless of gender, need that straight up, fast, in your face now for a lot of them y-'cause that's what they're attuned to with, gaming and just the world today.
5:40
Tina Strachan: Do you think it's more like that?
5:42
Tina Strachan: Do you think that's why, one, one of the reasons maybe why?
5:44
Tina Strachan: Just-
5:45
Sarah Armstrong: Yeah, maybe.
5:46
Sarah Armstrong: The fact is boys are reading less than girls across the board.
5:51
Sarah Armstrong: That's what the statistics tell us.
5:53
Sarah Armstrong: But there are a lot of like socioeconomic factors in there too.
5:57
Sarah Armstrong: So you know the the more access boys have to books and the more books reading is modeled around them and, the better their school library and- More their parents or carers read, all of that has a really big influence.
6:12
Sarah Armstrong: So it's not just, it's a sort of the statistics are a bit varied, but on across the board, yes, boys do read less and men read less.
6:20
Sarah Armstrong: And that, I think, is part of the picture that if men are reading less, boys are seeing fewer ma- male role models read.
6:25
Sarah Armstrong: I'm actually gonna do a dads and kids talk at an event at a school in Brisbane soon, which is really great, and both the, the dad and the child will have read Run- and then I come and talk to them about it.
6:37
Sarah Armstrong: So I think that's a really good way to put the focus on the dads.
6:40
Sarah Armstrong: The dads need to be reading in order to get the boys reading.
6:43
Sarah Armstrong: But I didn't set out and think,"This is a book for boys," because this is the book, kind of book I loved reading as a kid.
6:52
Sarah Armstrong: I guess I hope that it would grab there are certain readers of, any gender who this might not appeal to, my, my books, because they're into sort of a more gentle, maybe romance, whatever.
7:04
Sarah Armstrong: They're not into this kind of book, and that's fine.
7:06
Sarah Armstrong: But I guess I worked in a bookshop in Byron Bay for a while in the kids' section, and I saw, I felt like there was an opening in this kind of more pacey thriller/survival kind of stories for middle grade.
7:23
Sarah Armstrong: There are definitely some amazing books out there in that space, but I feel like there's room for more.
7:28
Sarah Armstrong: 'Cause kids can go through a book a week.
7:29
Sarah Armstrong: It's If they're really reading, so we need a lot of them.
7:33
Sarah Armstrong: So I, that was part of my thinking.
7:35
Sarah Armstrong: I thought,"Oh, I can see there's a bit of a space for more books in this area," and also, these are the books I loved reading.
7:40
Sarah Armstrong: So I wasn't really thinking about gender, and y- I think that it's the gatekeepers- Who often have more ideas about there being boys books and girls books more than the actual boys and girls.
7:53
Sarah Armstrong: I think boys are actually happy most of the time to read books with girl main characters.
8:00
Sarah Armstrong: I was talking to someone the other day, a librarian, who said it's the cover that matters.
8:03
Sarah Armstrong: If the cover feel, feels too sort of- You know, girly in inverted commas, boys might not be drawn to it.
8:11
Sarah Armstrong: But the story inside, you know- it's either gonna grab them or it's not, and they're not so concerned about girl main characters.
8:17
Sarah Armstrong: So yeah, I don't think there's boys' books and girls' books.
8:21
Sarah Armstrong: But I do think we need to make an effort to get kids across the board into reading more, and that's a, it's a really complex and nuanced question.
8:29
Sarah Armstrong: What are the solutions to that?
8:31
Sarah Armstrong: But definitely boys are lagging behind and, it's where I think the male role models, that's one thing they can do, is really, step up and read and talk about what they're reading and spend time reading with their kids.
8:45
Sarah Armstrong: And not as necessarily reading to them, although that's good, too.
8:48
Sarah Armstrong: But reading at the same time and then talking about it.
8:51
Sarah Armstrong: So yeah I think, there are lots of boys who love my survival stories, but lots of girls, too.
8:58
Tina Strachan: Yeah, absolutely.
8:59
Tina Strachan: Yeah, it's an age-old problem, isn't it?
9:00
Tina Strachan: I didn't actually wanna touch on this topic at all.
9:03
Tina Strachan: It wasn't my intent, but I guess it just kinda swayed that way.
9:05
Tina Strachan: But yeah, it's an age-old problem, isn't it?
9:07
Tina Strachan: I remember my little kids coming home from kindy saying something like,"Oh no, but that's a girl color." And you're like, hang on.
9:14
Tina Strachan: How...
9:14
Tina Strachan: What makes something a girl color or a boy color or a girl toy or a boy toy?
9:18
Tina Strachan: It's and you're right, it's those gatekeepers or it's the, the adults that are saying that to them.
9:23
Tina Strachan: Same goes for book covers.
9:25
Tina Strachan: There's no girl book covers or boy book covers, and it is just what appeals to whichever child wants to read whatever, isn't it?
9:32
Tina Strachan: So yeah, it's...
9:33
Tina Strachan: And there's many more things that I think they, we know now can improve reading, and it's really probably what the cover looks like is probably very low on that list of things- Yeah isn't it?
9:43
Tina Strachan: It,
9:43
Sarah Armstrong: it's interesting, I heard'cause this topic has been hot recently because- Luke Bateman talked about it on Australian Story, and then he interviewed Scott Stuart, the kids author, on Scott's, on Luke's podcast.
9:56
Sarah Armstrong: And Scott Stuart quoted some research, which I haven't actually put my finger on yet, where he was saying that when boys are choosing books for themselves, they don't choose what are stereo- necessarily stereotypically regarded as boys' books.
10:12
Sarah Armstrong: They'll choose anything.
10:13
Sarah Armstrong: Girls on cover, girls main characters, whatever.
10:17
Sarah Armstrong: But if they're choosing a book for another boy, they will tend to go for the more stereotypical boys' books, which is really interesting- I thought.
10:26
Tina Strachan: That is interesting, isn't it?
10:28
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
10:28
Tina Strachan: Oh, I'm sure it's a good thing that it's back in the spotlight because we're all working, to, to...
10:34
Tina Strachan: It's good that we know what we need to do, in a way, to help.
10:37
Tina Strachan: And the talk that you're doing where both the parents and the kids are reading RUM sounds incredible, and I can't wait to hear how that goes.
10:44
Tina Strachan: We need more of them.
10:45
Tina Strachan: That's Is this like a Father's Day thing,'cause Father's Day's coming up?
10:50
Sarah Armstrong: Oh, that's a good point.
10:51
Sarah Armstrong: Maybe it is.
10:52
Tina Strachan: Maybe we should make Fa- Not sure some- a Father's Day annual, Dads Reading With Kids thing.
10:58
Tina Strachan: That sounds like such
10:59
Sarah Armstrong: a fun- Each read
11:00
Tina Strachan: the
11:00
Sarah Armstrong: same book thing Talk about it together.
11:02
Sarah Armstrong: Yes.
11:04
Sarah Armstrong: Yeah.
11:04
Sarah Armstrong: I think that- Yeah,
11:04
Tina Strachan: okay.
11:05
Tina Strachan: Let's work on that
11:06
Sarah Armstrong: let's start a campaign.
11:06
Tina Strachan: Okay.
11:07
Tina Strachan: We'll table that for another time.
11:08
Tina Strachan: All righty.
11:09
Tina Strachan: So but back to survival thrillers you were following up on the success of Run with another survival thriller that I'm sure will follow an even more successful trajectory with your very soon to be released novel, The Wave.
11:24
Tina Strachan: Can you tell us- Yes about The Wave?
11:26
Sarah Armstrong: Sure, yeah.
11:27
Sarah Armstrong: So The Wave is about 13-year-old Max, who's home alone on his, the island where he lives when he gets the warning that a tsunami, an unexpected tsunami is coming, and he's gotta get out and get to higher ground straight away.
11:42
Sarah Armstrong: But he can't find his dog, Ralph, and he has to make the decision, do I stay and do I look for Ralph, or do I, get a lift to higher ground?
11:53
Sarah Armstrong: And, the minutes ticking by and he still can't find Ralph, and he still can't find Ralph.
11:57
Sarah Armstrong: And he ends up banding together with a couple of other kids who are also alone on the island to survive the tsunami and the aftermath.
12:07
Sarah Armstrong: And so it is about, it's about surviving, but it's also about their relationships.
12:12
Sarah Armstrong: And there are some themes in there because much the town near me, Byron Bay Max's home island has really been affected by tourism in that a lot of people have turned their houses over to Airbnbs or holiday accommodation or, houses have been sold just to be holiday houses, and they're not lived in full time, and a lot of people have had to leave the area or pay exorbitant rents or live in really substandard accommodation.
12:37
Sarah Armstrong: There's a real housing crisis in my area.
12:39
Sarah Armstrong: And so I brought that into the novel too.
12:43
Sarah Armstrong: Which actually it does work in, because, when the tsunami comes and the whole town is underwater, everyone is equally affected.
12:52
Sarah Armstrong: All the houses are equally- destroyed.
12:56
Tina Strachan: Yep.
12:57
Tina Strachan: That's very leveling, isn't it?
12:58
Tina Strachan: So d- in many ways.
12:59
Tina Strachan: Yes.
13:00
Tina Strachan: Yeah, I...
13:00
Tina Strachan: And I love that, and like you were saying before with the Trojan Horse, we don't wanna outwardly just spew lessons at them in the books, do we?
13:06
Tina Strachan: It's part of that emotional story, isn't it?
13:08
Tina Strachan: And you do that very well.
13:10
Tina Strachan: It doesn't feel like there's any major lessons to be learnt, but it's just naturally happening, isn't it?
13:14
Sarah Armstrong: And, those things are happening.
13:16
Sarah Armstrong: Life is like that, we're living our life, and things like that are happening around us, and so it is just part of life, so it works to be part of a book, I think.
13:27
Sarah Armstrong: I think it would feel much less emotionally satisfying if it didn't have all the sort of social and interpersonal and personal elements- that I add.
13:39
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
13:39
Tina Strachan: Yeah, it has to be relatable.
13:40
Tina Strachan: That's real life.
13:41
Tina Strachan: And kids relate to all of that, so it's, that's why they are loving these books, I'm sure.
13:45
Tina Strachan: So you're very gifted, Sarah, at creating a sense of place in your books, and your settings always feel very real and very alive, and it's very easy for the readers to immerse themselves in your words, to the point where w- when, when I was reading The Wave I f- quite, felt quite anxious to be honest about The Wave because, I remember the tsunami.
14:08
Tina Strachan: Can't remember what year that was.
14:09
Tina Strachan: That was-
14:11
Sarah Armstrong: 2004, I think
14:12
Tina Strachan: was it 2004?
14:13
Tina Strachan: And so it brought a lot of that back for me, but I, and I guess...
14:17
Tina Strachan: But, I guess a lot of your readers probably weren't around then, may not have even know about it.
14:20
Tina Strachan: But it did feel very real, which I'm sure is exactly what you were going for.
14:25
Tina Strachan: So are you drawing from real life a lot of the time?
14:29
Tina Strachan: How are you...
14:30
Tina Strachan: how have you honed this skill to just make it so real and alive?
14:34
Tina Strachan: And is it settings or experiences that you've had before?
14:37
Tina Strachan: And what tips and advice do you have for other writers to nail this very fine art of creating such rich settings?
14:46
Sarah Armstrong: I certainly have not had an experience of a tsunami thankfully.
14:49
Sarah Armstrong: I was super obsessed with them as a kid, and I think a lot of kids are.
14:53
Sarah Armstrong: The idea of natural disasters, but particularly for me, the ocean, because we moved to live near the ocean when I was about nine, and I had my sort of first real experiences of the ocean's power and actually being really badly dumped and being kinda trapped out on the br- at the breakers and not being able to get back in'cause the waves were coming so fast.
15:12
Sarah Armstrong: So I got this very vi- visceral experience of the ocean's power and felt, a bit afraid of it for quite a while.
15:19
Sarah Armstrong: And tsunamis are really In the way you could back then go down rabbit holes in the encyclopedias and such.
15:27
Sarah Armstrong: There was no internet rabbit hole to go down, but I went down my own form of rabbit holes.
15:31
Sarah Armstrong: And so I guess I'm drawing on that, the memories of how I felt about tsunamis and the ocean back then.
15:37
Sarah Armstrong: And I'm still I've gotta say, I don't go out super deep in the ocean even now.
15:41
Sarah Armstrong: So you know, I still have a very healthy respect for the ocean's power.
15:46
Sarah Armstrong: And in terms of setting, look, to be honest, I set most of my stories, and that includes all my adult books, around the area where I live or somewhere very similar.
15:54
Sarah Armstrong: In my mind, the island that Max lives on is basically Byron Bay but turned into an island And I can see it in my mind.
16:03
Sarah Armstrong: I can actually see that island and I can see the forest that Kaz was in.
16:08
Sarah Armstrong: And I think knowing a setting well helps y- helps me conjure it because I think I'm, like a lot of writers, I'm quite observant about what's around me.
16:22
Sarah Armstrong: I just take joy in noticing things and then thinking,"How would I describe that?" Even when I'm just walking around town or whatever, I see something interesting and I think,"How would I describe that?" And in my head I write a little phrase to describe it.
16:35
Sarah Armstrong: It's just something I've always done.
16:37
Sarah Armstrong: And so I think I just get a lot of practice at describing places.
16:42
Sarah Armstrong: And, often in my first drafts my description of place is, a bit rudimentary or cliched, and it sometimes takes a few drafts to, extract that and make it a bit, hopefully a little bit fresher, and original.
16:56
Sarah Armstrong: And sometimes I'm actually pulling out description'cause it's too much, and it's more effective to keep it very simple.
17:02
Sarah Armstrong: Not try for the fancy metaphor or, you know- Lots of adjectives or whatever.
17:07
Sarah Armstrong: And sometimes I just keep it very simple because the reader has got such a source of images and experiences to draw on.
17:16
Sarah Armstrong: 'Cause every book, of course, is a unique meeting between the reader's imagination and the writer's imagination.
17:22
Sarah Armstrong: And everyone's, version of the island that Max lives on will be different, will be completely different, and none of them will be exactly like my version, and that's okay.
17:31
Sarah Armstrong: So yeah, sometimes I think I need to trust the reader and what they bring to it as well.
17:36
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
17:37
Tina Strachan: No, that's true.
17:38
Tina Strachan: You gotta They've gotta fill some gaps in themselves too.
17:40
Tina Strachan: But I think you do, you absolutely find that in between.
17:44
Tina Strachan: In my...
17:44
Tina Strachan: You know what I was picturing in my mind, and I see it now when you say it's Byron, I probably should have thought that'cause I live not too far from Byron too, and yes it does feel a lot like that.
17:52
Tina Strachan: I was thinking of I used to live up north and I used to live n- near this very...
17:56
Tina Strachan: At the time it was a very, I don't know, have you heard of Tannum Sands?
17:59
Tina Strachan: It's up near, like Gladstone and that.
18:01
Tina Strachan: And it was, it's very...
18:02
Tina Strachan: When I was there, there was nothing.
18:03
Tina Strachan: It was like dirt roads, and you just used to pull your car up and just jump in the ocean.
18:07
Tina Strachan: There's no lifeguards.
18:08
Tina Strachan: There was nothing.
18:09
Tina Strachan: Back when you're a teenager and you've got no cares in the world.
18:11
Tina Strachan: And I envision it as that, because I know now that it's just there's apartment buildings there's Woolworths, there's shops, there's roads, like, and I know that's what's happened there now.
18:20
Tina Strachan: So that's actually what was, I was envisioning in my mind when I was reading it.
18:23
Tina Strachan: Oh.
18:24
Tina Strachan: Very similar thing.
18:25
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
18:26
Tina Strachan: Yes.
18:27
Tina Strachan: Okay, so- survival thrillers, Sarah you do seem to have a knack with them it seems.
18:32
Tina Strachan: And but it is a bit of a jump from what you've written in the past, isn't it?
18:37
Tina Strachan: Because previously to this, you- your first middle grade books were a little bit more sort of magical and fantasy-based, and before that you were actually writing for fiction for adults.
18:48
Tina Strachan: So can you tell us a little bit about your previous books and your journey through writing adult fiction and arriving at middle grade?
18:55
Sarah Armstrong: Sure.
18:55
Sarah Armstrong: So I started I was a journalist originally, and then I just I'd always wanted to be a writer, ever since I was, a kid, and I just journalism seemed like the next best thing.
19:05
Sarah Armstrong: And in fact, was a good move because I got to experience the world and people and so on.
19:10
Sarah Armstrong: But I wrote my first novel, and I didn't even think about writing for kids, even though at the time I was married to a children's author and illustrator.
19:19
Sarah Armstrong: You would think it might have occurred to me, but I just wrote for adults.
19:23
Sarah Armstrong: And so I wrote three novels for adults all set around Mullumbimby, where I live, even if I didn't call it that.
19:31
Sarah Armstrong: And then I had a child, and that took me back to writing.
19:38
Sarah Armstrong: It took me back to kids books.
19:39
Sarah Armstrong: And just It was just this beautiful kind of return to my own experiences as a child reading.
19:47
Sarah Armstrong: We didn't have a television when I was growing up.
19:49
Sarah Armstrong: My parents got rid of it.
19:50
Sarah Armstrong: There was only one screen in the house, but they got rid of that, and I just read like a book a day.
19:58
Sarah Armstrong: I read heaps.
19:59
Sarah Armstrong: And the books, there weren't as many great books around then.
20:03
Sarah Armstrong: We're in a golden age of children's literature right now.
20:05
Sarah Armstrong: But there were some good books, some of the classics.
20:09
Sarah Armstrong: And so I just read so much, and I just felt such joy when I revisited that reading to my daughter.
20:16
Sarah Armstrong: It was just like,"Oh, this just feels like my homeland," kids books feel like my homeland, and there's so many beautiful books that I was able to read to her, from picture books through to middle grade.
20:27
Sarah Armstrong: And I just thought, this is the space I wanna be writing in." And it's just been fantastic from the first moment.
20:37
Sarah Armstrong: I like the parameters around kids books, like what you can and can't write about.
20:43
Sarah Armstrong: I like the fact the ending has to have a note of hope, because that helps me, I love the kid lit community.
20:51
Sarah Armstrong: All the, authors, and illustrators, and teacher-librarians, and publishers, and everyone in that world, the booksellers, are just a really great group of people.
21:01
Sarah Armstrong: Because, you spend a lot of time on your own as a writer, so it's lovely to have that sense of a community, and it's a really excellent community.
21:07
Sarah Armstrong: And then of course the readers are just the best thing about writing for kids, is the meeting the kids.
21:14
Sarah Armstrong: And'Cause I go into schools and do school visits.
21:17
Sarah Armstrong: When you meet, when a kid comes up to you with tears in their eyes and says,"This is my favorite book ever in my whole life," it's like, wow, that's like everything.
21:27
Sarah Armstrong: And another kid came up to me,'cause in Run, Max lives with his aunt'cause his dad can't look after him.
21:35
Sarah Armstrong: He's not able to.
21:36
Sarah Armstrong: He's, And this kid came up to me and said,"I've never read a book with a i'm in the same situation.
21:41
Sarah Armstrong: I live with my aunt because my mom and dad are not able to take care of me, and I've never read a character like me in a book." And it was obviously really meaningful to that kid that there was someone like them in the book.
21:54
Sarah Armstrong: Yeah.
21:55
Sarah Armstrong: I think the kids are the, the very, very best thing- About writing for kids.
21:59
Tina Strachan: That's pretty powerful, isn't it, when a child can see themselves in your book, in your character, isn't it?
22:03
Sarah Armstrong: Yeah.
22:04
Tina Strachan: It's incredible.
22:04
Tina Strachan: Yeah, that makes it all worthwhile.
22:07
Tina Strachan: So did you f- can I ask you, did you find it hard or was there any When it comes to publishing across not genres, but age groups even, genres even is hard to Or sometimes there's some, roadblocks in the way when trying to swap genres from the publishing side.
22:23
Tina Strachan: Did you find there was any when you started pitching books for children, was there any sort of questions about you're a, you're an adult's You write f- adult fiction." Anything like that, or?
22:34
Sarah Armstrong: I think there w- not so much of that.
22:35
Sarah Armstrong: More just,"Are you gonna keep writing for kids?"'Cause, for publishers- when they take on a new author- it's quite an investment.
22:40
Sarah Armstrong: And they- It's a better investment for them if they know you're gonna keep producing, kids books for them, ideally.
22:50
Sarah Armstrong: If they're good.
22:51
Sarah Armstrong: So I guess there was just a question about that, are you gonna keep writing in this space or are you gonna go back to writing for adults?
22:56
Sarah Armstrong: And I can say, really honestly, look, at the minute I can only imagine keeping writing in this space.
23:01
Sarah Armstrong: And, look at my first I wrote, the first kids book I wrote did, my agent did send it round and there was no interest, so it is still sitting in my drawer.
23:10
Sarah Armstrong: Although amazingly, a lot of the themes in it have, And bit, bits of it have just found them their way into subsequent books.
23:17
Sarah Armstrong: So the sort of my first kids book didn't really go anywhere, and then I wrote Big Magic and I think having an agent really helps.
23:25
Sarah Armstrong: My agent is Pippa Masson at Curtis Brown, and she was, connected me with Hardy Grant Children's Publishing, and Marisa Pintado there.
23:33
Sarah Armstrong: And I don't think there was I don't recall anything about, questions in terms of me having written for adults except,"Do you see yourself continuing to work in this space?" That was it.
23:42
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
23:43
Tina Strachan: Yeah, and that's a fair question.
23:44
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
23:44
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
23:44
Tina Strachan: I think there's a sometimes a bit of hesitance with authors who have written in one genre or for one age group to then,"Can I pitch it?
23:52
Tina Strachan: Is it, is it- is there anything against me doing that?
23:54
Tina Strachan: Is there something that's gonna hold me back?" Yeah, so it sounds like- See,
23:57
Sarah Armstrong: I've got a few- just give it a go I've seen a fair, quite a few YA authors, or and middle grade, moving into adult writing at the minute.
24:02
Sarah Armstrong: It's interesting, there's a few people writing adult books, which is interesting.
24:06
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
24:06
Tina Strachan: Yeah, that is interesting.
24:08
Tina Strachan: Okay.
24:08
Tina Strachan: You have also been teaching writing for over 20 years, haven't you?
24:13
Tina Strachan: And currently I see that you're s- you've started offering some online courses.
24:18
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
24:19
Tina Strachan: Which I think is such a wonderful idea because as much as in person is so valuable for so many things, especially in this day of and age of everything being online but by being online you can reach a lot more people.
24:31
Tina Strachan: T- can you tell us a little bit about those courses and what you're offering and who should sign up and why, and where?
24:36
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
24:37
Sarah Armstrong: Sure.
24:38
Sarah Armstrong: Yes.
24:38
Sarah Armstrong: I have taught writing, like yeah for a long time, and I love teaching.
24:42
Sarah Armstrong: And, I guess I just decide I was just thinking about how to do it online, and I'm still developing the shape of the sort of main course.
24:51
Sarah Armstrong: But what I've got out there at the minute, and it can be found on my website, which is www.sarah-armstrong.com, are a couple of free courses where people can get a sense of my teaching style and Th- they- they've got exercises in them and help them get, a certain number of words down and come up with an idea if that's what they're seeking to do.
25:14
Sarah Armstrong: And my plan is a little bit later in the year to offer some courses that will involve some live work on Zoom, question and answer time, and chat about craft time, as well as little videos about aspects of craft.
25:29
Sarah Armstrong: 'Cause I during COVID I was teaching a course, a 12-week writing year of the novel course, and we ended up having to go to Zoom and I recorded a whole lot of videos.
25:38
Sarah Armstrong: I'm not using those very same videos, I'm recording new ones, but it just showed me how helpful it can be to have little video lectures, for want of a better word, that people can, revisit and go back to, as well as some live face-to-face not face-to-face, live Zoom to Zoom stuff.
25:56
Sarah Armstrong: So yeah, that'll be later in the year and I people can sign up for my intermittent newsletter from me.
26:02
Sarah Armstrong: But also my partner, Alan, is also a writer and we have a Substack happening called The Writer's House where we talk about aspects of craft and what we're reading, what we're writing, what we're watching.
26:13
Sarah Armstrong: So that people are really welcome to join, sign up, subscribe to that as well,'cause we do quite a lot of chat about craft there.
26:20
Tina Strachan: Okay.
26:21
Tina Strachan: Yeah, so that's a good idea.
26:21
Tina Strachan: So sign up to the Substack or newsletter, and then you'll find out when these additional courses come out.
26:27
Tina Strachan: And but those, the free ones are a fantastic idea, and even the other ones where you're recording the videos.
26:33
Tina Strachan: I think in this day and age, people like to just self-pace it, because it's hard to get everybody in a room all together at once, and it's so valuable for, especially, for parents as well who, you've got kids, if things are held in the evening and, it's hard to get a bit of space so you can sit and do it.
26:48
Tina Strachan: But you could do, you can do it later.
26:50
Tina Strachan: I listen to lots of things in my car.
26:52
Tina Strachan: I've done full courses, self-paced courses in my car on the way to and from work.
26:55
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
26:55
Tina Strachan: Because it's Yeah, it, that's just the world that we live in now, so that's gonna be super helpful as well.
27:01
Tina Strachan: Can I Now, I just wanted to chat about critique groups.
27:04
Tina Strachan: Because you are in a very well-known critique group that many people are very envious of.
27:10
Tina Strachan: Can you tell us a little bit about your critique group?
27:13
Tina Strachan: How it came about, how it's helped you, and how you help each other?
27:18
Sarah Armstrong: Sure.
27:18
Sarah Armstrong: So my critique group includes Tristan Bancks, Zanni Louise, Deb Robella, and Lian Tanner, all of whom write in the kid lit space.
27:27
Sarah Armstrong: And Tristan and I have been friends for a long time, since he made a film about the first short story I ever wrote.
27:35
Sarah Armstrong: When I left the ABC and moved up here, I wrote a short story, and it won a local award, and he then made a short film about it.
27:41
Sarah Armstrong: So we've been friends even before he started writing for kids and before I s- wrote for adults.
27:47
Sarah Armstrong: And Zanni I met through a mothers group.
27:51
Sarah Armstrong: Our daughters are the same age.
27:53
Sarah Armstrong: And they knew, because they'd been in that children's literature space for a little while before me, they knew Lian and Deb.
28:00
Sarah Armstrong: And it is a really fantastic part of my writing life, I have to say.
28:06
Sarah Armstrong: I feel so, so lucky to be part of that critique group.
28:10
Sarah Armstrong: We meet basically once a month, although generally not in August for reasons that most people will understand, it being book month.
28:17
Sarah Armstrong: And we send each other writing a day or two before we meet.
28:22
Sarah Armstrong: We read each other's work.
28:23
Sarah Armstrong: It's up to, 2 to 3,000 words.
28:26
Sarah Armstrong: And then we meet, and we We're pretty strict on time, 15 minutes chitchat, and then each person has 15 minutes of time where they're given feedback on their writing.
28:35
Sarah Armstrong: And these guys, over time we've developed a culture where I feel like we've just really nailed the right mix of encouragement and constructive critique.
28:47
Sarah Armstrong: And I think we know each other well enough to know if someone needs a bit more of one or the other, depending just where they're at at that time.
28:55
Sarah Armstrong: So it They really help me with my writing, and they help me with being encouraging.
29:03
Sarah Armstrong: They're like a cheer squad.
29:04
Sarah Armstrong: And they've helped me because I've newer to the children's literature world than them, they've sort of- Given me lots of really useful information about publishing and about school visits, and so I'm really grateful to them.
29:19
Sarah Armstrong: And it's i've been in writies- writers groups since I started writing, and they've always meant a huge amount to me.
29:26
Sarah Armstrong: And it's a certain sort of intimacy you have with someone when you share your early drafts with them because, early drafts are early drafts.
29:33
Sarah Armstrong: They're often, a bit dodgy and, it's a vulnerable thing to show someone your early drafts.
29:38
Sarah Armstrong: And I think it creates this certain intimacy and camaraderie that, I find really valuable.
29:45
Tina Strachan: Yeah, it does.
29:45
Tina Strachan: I love the 15 minutes chit-chat and then 15 minutes for your feedback for each person.
29:50
Tina Strachan: I love how you've organized that.
29:51
Tina Strachan: But you do have to be like that, don't you?
29:53
Tina Strachan: Because especially, like it sounds like you're very good friends.
29:55
Tina Strachan: You get on there and a half an hour or 45 minutes goes, and you realize that you haven't even started.
30:00
Tina Strachan: I think we tried to do a, like a writing session.
30:03
Sarah Armstrong: And we just chatted.
30:04
Tina Strachan: We just chatted and ate lemon meringue- Yeah with Kate Foster.
30:07
Tina Strachan: And so we need to but we've always next time we'll make we'll do that.
30:10
Tina Strachan: We'll do a quick just 15 minutes catch up.
30:12
Sarah Armstrong: As long as there's also a lemon meringue.
30:14
Tina Strachan: Yeah, you need the lemon meringue to fuel the writing.
30:16
Tina Strachan: That's absolutely true.
30:18
Tina Strachan: Yeah I, so I love that organization, and I'll have to bring that to my own critique group.
30:21
Tina Strachan: But, not everybody can have such a dream critique group as that.
30:26
Tina Strachan: Any advice for anybody who's looking for some gaining a crit- critique group?
30:30
Tina Strachan: Where can they find one?
30:31
Tina Strachan: Especially the vulnerability about sharing your work is quite important too, because a lot of people, if it's their first group or they're just starting writing, it can be a bit scary.
30:39
Sarah Armstrong: Yeah.
30:40
Sarah Armstrong: I think finding people who are roughly at the same level as you of experience with writing is probably helpful.
30:47
Sarah Armstrong: A lot of people for- form groups they're gonna do a workshop somewhere or a class somewhere, and they meet people and form a group.
30:53
Sarah Armstrong: And because of, Zoom, you can, like people can be anywhere in the country.
30:58
Sarah Armstrong: So it may be just you meet someone somewhere who's also a writer, and you might just start with three people, and then you might add someone.
31:04
Sarah Armstrong: And as to the s- the vulnerability and the sort of culture within the group, I think it's really great to be very transparent and upfront about expectations around that.
31:17
Sarah Armstrong: And I think a lot of people feel like they've just got to be critical in order to be helpful.
31:22
Sarah Armstrong: But, when I'm teaching writing, what I'm encouraging people to do, particularly in first draft, is identify what you really love about this piece of work, your own work or someone else's.
31:33
Sarah Armstrong: Identify what you love and build on that.
31:35
Sarah Armstrong: And the other stuff will drop away because first drafts are inevitably flawed.
31:38
Sarah Armstrong: They're imperfect.
31:40
Sarah Armstrong: And- It's not that helpful to get in and be super critical of a first draft particularly at nitty-gritty level like sentence level and stuff.
31:48
Sarah Armstrong: We would never give each other feedback on,"Oh, you've got a typo there," in a first draft.
31:52
Sarah Armstrong: It's like, that's really unhelpful.
31:55
Sarah Armstrong: It's more big picture stuff around character and plot and pacing and so on.
32:00
Sarah Armstrong: So I think having a really open discussion with the other critique group members about what are our expectations here and thinking about the most constructive way to give feedback, and sometimes that can be saying to someone,"What would be the most helpful feedback for you today on this piece of writing?"'Cause someone might be just really struggling with a particular aspect of the work, and that's what's most helpful for them to hear.
32:26
Sarah Armstrong: Or they might say,"I'm feeling really shaky today and feeling imposter syndrome and-" I don't think I can handle anything too, strong.
32:34
Sarah Armstrong: So I think lots of transparency is very helpful so that'Cause I know of people who've been in groups that were quite critical, and it didn't serve them, and it didn't serve their writing.
32:46
Sarah Armstrong: And what you wanna do is be in a group that's going to support you and help you, help your work become the best thing it possibly can.
32:54
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
32:55
Tina Strachan: Yeah, there certainly is a knack to delivering feedback as well.
32:59
Tina Strachan: It's And it, I think it's two-way street, isn't it?
33:01
Tina Strachan: Like you said, delivering it- and also receiving it.
33:03
Tina Strachan: But I think that was a really important top point that you said there about just transparency and being open and, because I've Sometimes I want to send something and I'm like,"I know this is super rough.
33:14
Tina Strachan: Just so you know it's super rough, really drafty.
33:17
Tina Strachan: But does the overall I'd Or what I'm after is just the overall gist.
33:21
Tina Strachan: And is, does this seem, pacey enough or interesting enough?" Or, I'm traditionally someone who writes in past tense, but I've recently just tried something in present tense, and I know that I've flipped and changed back and forth between the two the whole way through, and I'm like,"Please ignore all of that.
33:37
Tina Strachan: I don't need to know any of that.
33:38
Tina Strachan: But before I start going through a line edit, can you tell me if y- you think this is enjoyable, couple of chapters?" Things like that.
33:46
Tina Strachan: So just really asking for what you want.
33:49
Sarah Armstrong: Yeah, and I think that you make a really good point about receiving feedback.
33:53
Sarah Armstrong: 'Cause it, sometimes you'll get In a, even in our group, you'll get two people who say the exact opposite thing.
33:58
Sarah Armstrong: "That didn't work for me because X, Y, Z." And someone else will say,"No, I really love that bit.
34:02
Sarah Armstrong: Don't get rid of it." Yeah.
34:04
Sarah Armstrong: But if everyone in the group says,"You know what?
34:06
Sarah Armstrong: That bit there just didn't quite work for me," then you really need to listen if everyone's saying the same thing.
34:13
Sarah Armstrong: And I think some i've given a lot of feedback in my time as a teacher, and I try to be very careful about how do, how I do it.
34:20
Sarah Armstrong: Some people are very able to take feedback.
34:23
Sarah Armstrong: They can really take it on, and some people are not.
34:27
Sarah Armstrong: And the people who are not and who get defensive, their writing is not gonna shift and change so much because they're It's not that everything I s- people should take on everything I say, but I think there's, you need to have a sort of willingness to hear what people are saying to you.
34:44
Sarah Armstrong: Just have a think about it, it's when you get a structural notes from your publisher, like the first big editorial notes on a manuscript.
34:52
Sarah Armstrong: It's like I won't make every single change that's suggested.
34:56
Sarah Armstrong: I love them.
34:57
Sarah Armstrong: I feel really excited by them.
34:58
Sarah Armstrong: Some people don't.
34:59
Sarah Armstrong: They read them and feel despairing,'cause all they read is the criticism, and then they need to come back to it a few days later.
35:04
Sarah Armstrong: But what I read when I read those notes is like,"Here's a chance for me to make this even better, to realize my vision even more effectively."'Cause the best structural notes will be tuned into the vision I had for the book, and they're just helping me try and realize that.
35:21
Sarah Armstrong: And that's what the best critique will be too.
35:23
Sarah Armstrong: It's not about I write, sort of romance, and you haven't got enough romance in there.
35:27
Sarah Armstrong: It's more like what are you trying to, what are you trying to achieve with this book, and how can my feedback help you achieve that better?
35:34
Sarah Armstrong: So I think that's the thing.
35:35
Sarah Armstrong: It's like we're trying to give feedback based on what the author's intention is.
35:40
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
35:41
Tina Strachan: No.
35:42
Tina Strachan: And I guess if someone's Regardless of if you wanna take it on or not, if someone's mentioned something, there's kind of a reason why, and whether you agree with it or not, it's always just worth having a little look into it and- Yeah and thinking where has this actually come from their point of view.
35:55
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
35:55
Tina Strachan: 'Cause there's so many things that we don't see when we're the, we're writing it.
35:58
Tina Strachan: We're in it, and we maybe we haven't explained it properly, and it's, there's a usually a reason why it's come across that
36:03
Sarah Armstrong: way.
36:03
Sarah Armstrong: And sometimes in justifying why something is a certain way, that's helpful too,'cause we get real clarity about, oh, no, this is why I've done this.
36:12
Sarah Armstrong: And sometimes that can make you think, oh, maybe I need to do a bit more of that elsewhere in the piece or Yeah.
36:17
Sarah Armstrong: So even just justifying why you don't agree with their feedback can be helpful.
36:22
Tina Strachan: Yep.
36:22
Tina Strachan: Yep.
36:23
Tina Strachan: So S- Sarah, what's next for you?
36:25
Tina Strachan: I know The Wave's just coming out very shortly, so you're gonna be very busy with your whole promotion period.
36:31
Tina Strachan: But as we know, there's always lots of things going on at the same time, isn't there when you're writing?
36:36
Tina Strachan: So tell us what's next for you?
36:38
Sarah Armstrong: I'm working on another sort of survival story that's got a bit of crime in it, this one.
36:43
Sarah Armstrong: Bit of survival-
36:44
Tina Strachan: Exciting
36:45
Sarah Armstrong: sort of crime.
36:45
Sarah Armstrong: And I'm about 30,000 words in.
36:49
Tina Strachan: Wow.
36:50
Sarah Armstrong: I've actually finished the first draft, but the end is a bit sketchy.
36:54
Sarah Armstrong: A bit thin.
36:55
Sarah Armstrong: So I'm now working my way through and fleshing it out.
36:58
Sarah Armstrong: Because it's got the crime element, had to really get the plot sorted.
37:02
Sarah Armstrong: Because, there's clues to drop and so- A lot
37:05
Tina Strachan: more sort of plotting, isn't there, with the- A lot
37:07
Sarah Armstrong: more plotting.
37:08
Sarah Armstrong: Yeah.
37:08
Sarah Armstrong: Yeah.
37:09
Tina Strachan: That's fun.
37:09
Tina Strachan: Okay, I'm excited for that.
37:11
Sarah Armstrong: Yeah.
37:11
Sarah Armstrong: So yeah, that'll, hopefully be out around this time next year, fingers crossed, all being well.
37:16
Sarah Armstrong: But yeah, I'm really loving writing, writing it.
37:20
Tina Strachan: And working on your courses that are probably going to be available maybe towards the end of the year?
37:23
Sarah Armstrong: And I'll be working on my courses that'll be available towards the end of the year.
37:27
Sarah Armstrong: That's right.
37:28
Sarah Armstrong: I've I've pretty much sketched them out.
37:30
Sarah Armstrong: I just need to record the videos and get them up.
37:33
Sarah Armstrong: I've learnt a lot about the back end of online courses.
37:38
Tina Strachan: It's always new skill- always new things to learn, isn't there?
37:40
Tina Strachan: That's
37:40
Sarah Armstrong: right.
37:41
Tina Strachan: Okay.
37:41
Tina Strachan: So Sarah, do you have one final top tip for aspiring and emerging authors?
37:47
Sarah Armstrong: Oh, one top tip.
37:48
Tina Strachan: Or any writers in general.
37:49
Tina Strachan: Anything.
37:50
Sarah Armstrong: I think- My main one would be to, and this is the really big thing I had to come to understand is that the first draft is just that.
38:01
Sarah Armstrong: And that rewriting is where a story really comes to life.
38:06
Sarah Armstrong: And that rewriting Actually, true rewriting involves big changes.
38:13
Sarah Armstrong: Like I was at a school two days ago and I had a two-hour session with a group of keen writers, and I showed them...
38:21
Sarah Armstrong: They'd all read Run, and I showed them the first draft of the prologue and the first draft of chapter one, and even I was shocked at how different they were and how many things had changed.
38:34
Sarah Armstrong: And they were like,"What?
38:34
Sarah Armstrong: Where's that dog come from?" And you know- all this stuff.
38:38
Sarah Armstrong: And I hadn't realized that I'd made such big changes, and I told them like there was a mum character and a grandmother character, and they bit the dust.
38:45
Sarah Armstrong: Like I got rid of them, and like there were some really big changes in the rewriting of Run.
38:52
Sarah Armstrong: So I guess my encouragement to people is to really be open to those big changes that sometimes need to happen, whether it's losing characters, bringing new characters in, changing locations, just ditching whole sections that you've written.
39:06
Sarah Armstrong: We can get very attached to things we've written.
39:08
Sarah Armstrong: And on that front, I don't polish my f- first couple of drafts all that much.
39:15
Sarah Armstrong: Because, I learned with my very first novel for adults, I polished and polished before I'd really sat back and looked at the overall plot, and then I ditched this whole section in Hobart.
39:25
Sarah Armstrong: There's a whole section in Salt Rain that happened in Hobart that has never made it into the book.
39:30
Sarah Armstrong: And I must have spent hundreds of hours polishing that.
39:34
Sarah Armstrong: And it got lost.
39:35
Sarah Armstrong: Let a first draft and the early drafts be early drafts, and be willing to make the big changes.
39:40
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
39:41
Tina Strachan: On that note then, do you, when you have that step back and you look at it as a whole once you've done your, draft, do you do any plotting or planning, or do you do a story grid thing or a Save the Cat or anything like that to see if- to see if it's actually hitting, some of those compulsory scenes and points in your story?
40:03
Tina Strachan: Is that one way that you check- Yeah or do you just-
40:05
Sarah Armstrong: I do
40:05
Tina Strachan: vibe it?
40:06
Sarah Armstrong: No.
40:06
Sarah Armstrong: I don't vibe it.
40:07
Sarah Armstrong: I I sometimes use butcher's paper on the floor to track particularly like subplots and find where turning points, but I do use Save the Cat- For the novel.
40:17
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
40:17
Sarah Armstrong: I find that really helpful.
40:19
Sarah Armstrong: And I don't follow it absolutely.
40:21
Tina Strachan: Yeah, it's a guide.
40:22
Tina Strachan: But
40:22
Sarah Armstrong: I find...
40:22
Sarah Armstrong: It's a really good guide.
40:23
Sarah Armstrong: I find that sort of screenwriting approach with, midpoints- Yeah turning points and things quite helpful.
40:28
Sarah Armstrong: I also like that video, what's it called?
40:31
Sarah Armstrong: Insanely Good Endings, something by Michael Arnt.
40:36
Sarah Armstrong: He's a screenwriter.
40:37
Sarah Armstrong: He wrote Little Miss Sunshine, and he's got this video on YouTube where he talks about structure.
40:43
Sarah Armstrong: And the ending in particular, and what makes a truly satisfying ending, and I find that quite a helpful thing to look at as well.
40:49
Sarah Armstrong: So I definitely do think about structure, and I think about it a little bit on the way through, just lightly, and then I sit down and apply it more carefully.
40:57
Sarah Armstrong: And I often find that it's more or less there already, and I just need to amp it up or- tweak the placement of certain scenes.
41:07
Tina Strachan: Yeah, it can even help you shorten, like you said, tweak the placement, and sometimes you can realize that, oh, whoopsie, I've Like, all my points are there, but this one just took a really long time to get there.
41:16
Tina Strachan: And that's when you just can go back and have a look at those chapters and think can one go, or can they be shortened?" That's right.
41:22
Tina Strachan: Can you get rid of Hobart, is it sarah, thank you so much for joining me today on The Book Deal Podcast.
41:29
Tina Strachan: Congratulations on your new book, The Wave.
41:32
Tina Strachan: Out Probably by the time this goes to air, it'll probably be out in stores.
41:36
Tina Strachan: Everyone grab yourself a copy.
41:37
Tina Strachan: Thank you so much for sharing all that wonderful advice today, Sarah.
41:41
Sarah Armstrong: Great.
41:41
Sarah Armstrong: Thank you so much for having me, Tina.
41:43
Tina Strachan: Anytime.
41:48
Thank you for listening to another episode of The Book Deal Podcast.
41:52
If you are enjoying the pod, we'd really appreciate you following or sharing the show in your podcast directory, checking us out on Instagram and Facebook, or supporting us through our Patreon community at patreon.com/thebookdealpodcast