Latest / Beside Every Calling / Beside Every Calling | Episode 18: Where’s the Line? Opposite-Sex Boundaries in Ministry

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Beside Every Calling | Episode 18: Where’s the Line? Opposite-Sex Boundaries in Ministry · Beside Every Calling

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Beside Every Calling, where a life you love is formed beside the call and not lost within it.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: If your date night has occasionally included a hospital stop, or your kids played Let's Baptize in the pool instead of Marco Polo, you understand this rhythm.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Across every season, from little ones to leadership transitions to emptiness, we live beside the call while creating lives we love along the way.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: So please get comfortable and let's dive into today's episode.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Hi friends, and welcome to this episode of Beside Every Calling, where a life you loved is formed beside the call and not lost within it.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Debbie Daniels.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Jill Barber.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: And today's conversation is one that every ministry couple will navigate at some point.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, it can feel a little uncomfortable to talk about.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: As ministry leaders, we're called to care deeply for people.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: We want to be approachable, compassionate, and available, but we also want to be wise.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Today isn't about fear or adding some rules.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's about healthy conversations around opposite sex relationships in ministry and asking what guardrails help protect our marriages, the people we serve, and the ministries God has entrusted us with.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Joining Jillamy today is our good friend David.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: And while many of you may not know him, David faithfully edits Beside Every Calling behind the scenes.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: So he's very much a part of the Beside Every Calling family.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome, David.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: And he also serves in ministry alongside his wife, who is both a pastor and a counselor, giving him a perspective that I think we really need in this conversation.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: We're simply sharing our experiences.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: So everybody, welcome.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: And to get this conversation started, I thought I'll throw out the question: why do you think this conversation matters in ministry?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, uh, thanks for having me.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um this conversation absolutely matters uh in ministry because um it's it's what's needed to talk about in terms of relationships.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: So in terms of boundaries, in terms of uh appropriateness, in terms of um doing our best to still stay focused on ministry, staying focused on the Lord as far as following our calling, you know, as as a pastor, as a pastor spouse.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um so being able to have those guardrails in place in terms of relationships in the ministry context is uh super vital.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would echo that 100%.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: I this conversation matters to me.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's like it's kind of the core of my heart.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, it's like uh just to put it in kind of different terms, I just feel like Sam and I are the the warriors of our relationship.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we are the ones that are just out there uh defending our integrity and trying to be above board at every turn, whether it's an email, text, Facebook message, whatever.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but that we're not perfect at it.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: We're we're trying to achieve, you know, what it would look like if somebody else was reading it.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: We don't want it to be, you know, uh questionable at all.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: So this conversation matters, matters, matters uh in a in a big way.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for me, it just it matters because I don't think anyone wakes up and says, you know what, this year I want to have an affair and ruin my ministry and make my family collapse.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: But something happened, slow baby steps happened that get we all hear it way too often.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so I thought the three of us could just discuss some guardrails that we've put up in our own ministries that have worked for us that maybe someone listening out there hasn't thought of and could say, Yeah, I do need to do that, especially when you're first starting out, when you're kind of naive on that whole thing.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: I've been that I've been that naive uh pastor spouse, you know, before just loving God, loving church, loving my husband, and just going full force in ministry.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: And we were youth pastors uh many, many moons ago, uh, really loved it and had a great time.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: But it did dawn on me as our youth group was growing, uh, we would have great prayer times around the altar.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: And even in the you know, Sunday worship service, a lot of our youth would uh experience the altar to pray there.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: And we we just loved that.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: We thought that was great, and it is great, but there was a couple sweet, um, and I don't necessarily know this was intentional.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: So let me just say all of that.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: But it's a but something that the Holy Spirit brought to Sam and I is both of our attention was um the youth group was growing and we had some really sweet uh young ladies attending.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: They were great friends, and and they were really growing in the Lord, and so they would go to the altar um just you know, when the Holy Spirit moved them, and that was great.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: But what we noticed was um that they were after the, you know, we were a whole bunch of us were up there, whatever, but they really wanted a hug from my husband at the end of it.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't come from great healthy families, not their fault uh at all.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh he was older than them, of course, the manly figure or maybe the man figure or whatever in their world.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so what we we kind of talked about, well, we did talk about, and we realized, okay, when they go to the prayer go to pray, I was the one who was behind the altar uh talking with them.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm the one that hugged them at the end.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: Sam would just come and pat them on the shoulder.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and so we started that years ago, 36 years ago.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and it's not to say they they are horrible people at all.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: They just had a need, of course, a spiritual need, but they we knew their family of where they came from, and they didn't have any kind of uh high integrity man figure in their world at all.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so this was a new thing for them.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: They they can't they couldn't even articulate it, I don't think, back then, you know, not at all.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: Again, not at all.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: But uh the Holy Spirit really helped Sam to and I to see that.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, they didn't even miss a beat.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: When um when the next time they went to pray, I went to pray with them, I hugged them, we celebrated.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: We Sam and I did exactly what we talked about, and they never missed a beat.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't, they didn't know uh what we did on our end to try to help Sam's uh and their integrity.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody uh, you know, we're trying to protect everybody.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so we did that early on, and I'm really thankful that the Holy Spirit helped us, you know, um kind of see that uh as we were just starting out.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: But and I think um appearances are everything.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, especially between figuring out like what's appropriate, like as for each couple, whether I think you're starting out or you've been in ministry for you know for a very long time.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think establishing that baseline and and either adding to it, it's going to adapt, it's going to evolve, it's gonna change over the years as well.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the that's something I think that um it's okay to have happen.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Have the have that, you know, um that evolution of those safeguards within the context of your comfort as a couple, right?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: So every couple's different, um, and every couple's relationship is different, not just from a gender perspective, as far as male spouses or or female pastors, but it doesn't matter.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: But really, it's just more about um kind of as a couple being on the same team and and and having the same mindset in terms of um I think number one, just observing, like you're saying, Jill, just observing what you saw, and just kind of I don't know if you want to call it like just having a check in your gut, but maybe just like just noticing something that may be not wrong, but just odd off a little bit, right?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and how to number one, bring that up to your spouse and and talk about it with you guys first internally, and then you know, if nothing comes of it, great.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: But that's something I think that um is absolutely super important to uh to consider.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think it's intentionally.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I do think back when Scott and I were youth pastors, we cell phones didn't exist, but we've talked about what we would do now if we had cell phones, because we do have a pastor that we love that I don't think it ever was intentional, but it got to a point where it was his reputation, nothing had happened, but it didn't matter because of this texting chain.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I would just say back to that is if you're a youth pastor, I I would always tell Scott now, if we we talked about how would we do this?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we said I would do a three-way chat.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like any youth he chats, he puts me in that text chain too.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: And like right now, even at our 60-year-old, 36 years into marriage, I have his passcode on his phone and he has mine.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: We have an agreement, you can pick it up anytime and look through any of my emails, anything I have, um, you can look through that.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: So now he has some stuff in his general church emails that I don't look at just because it is very confidential and I don't need that and I trust him.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think no one intentionally wakes up wanting to sabotage their ministry and their marriage, but it's little tiny baby steps where you didn't trust your gut, like you thought, oh, I'll feel needy or they'll think I'm insecure.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: But you do need to trust your gut on those and set up wise boundaries, especially youth workers, right?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because it doesn't, it just takes someone accusing you or your spouse to ruin your ministry.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to have happened, and you're done.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: All these years you put into ministry are over because our reputation is what matters the most in ministry.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: We were we were at our first church, you know, uh young lead pastors of a very small church and uh happy to have anybody breathing and living that walked in as a visitor every Sunday.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: We we've all been talked about that already.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: But uh there was this uh lady, probably my age now, honestly, you know, late 50s, the whole thing.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: She was divorced though, going through a tough time in life and trying to find church in the Lord again.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: So we, you know, we were just trying to be our friend and all of that.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: And she asked to talk to Sam um just a little bit more about that.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well, at the time, I mean, our church was uh, it wasn't like we had uh an office in the church, you know, it was in our home for Sam.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and he said, sure.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: So uh Ross was just a little baby.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: We put him to bed and she would came over.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: And before she came over, I believe it was the Holy Spirit, but Sam said, Hey, would you just we're gonna leave the door open to my office, but would you just sit in there with me on this one?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, if you want me to, sure.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I sat in there, of course, you know, they had a conversation and I I was not necessarily a part of it, but just kind of, you know, participating and and just being there and supportive.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so that that session ended.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: And uh she said, I'd like to come back and talk some more.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: And Sam said, sure, that's no problem.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: And we never heard hiding her hair of her again.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I, you know, I we look back at that on 2020.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, the Lord gave Sam the wisdom to have me sit in there because she just wanted and needed, she needed, I don't know if she could articulate it, but she needed to have a man's voice in her world, in her spirit, her emotional bucket was empty, everything about her was empty.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so, pastors uh that are male, at least from my perspective and what I'm living with, David, you can talk about it on the other side.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when you have a male pastor, at least from our experience, if you have women who are wonderful women, they're just going through really tough stuff and they can't articulate what they need, but they know they need to talk sometimes.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: And a pastor is usually uh cheaper than a counselor or you know, or whatever.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: And and we were, there was no charge or whatever anything for that.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, we realized, okay, so maybe it really was wise for me to sit in there because years later, many, many different times, Sam would ask me to come and just sit in for different reasons all along the way.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: And really, when that sweet lady is hurting, she talks to me more than to Sam.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: And and Sam will give wisdom and spiritual guidance and all that kind of stuff.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: And we all pray together and we're all on a text group together and all that kind of stuff.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: But and when they and when we realize they don't want to come back, it it sell it just shines the what we kind of wondered, and now it's verified, that they just wanted Sam's time and Sam's attention and Sam's words to pour into them.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think that's wrong, but when it's just that, that there's a slippery slope that it can it can just go poorly and wrong.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so anyway, that's what has happened in our world with you know, the Lord's guidance again, of just having me sit in on some things.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I can relate to that too.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, especially like Virginia being a licensed marriage and family therapist, um, it doesn't happen very often, but there are times where she just says, Look, I just need your presence in the building.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Just sit at receptions, sit, just be in the hallway.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, I have no idea what happens in that counseling session, of course, but just from whatever perspective you want to look at it from, a safety perspective, uh security perspective, whatever it is.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: But just like you said, Joe, being a being a presence, just knowing that um for whoever she's meeting with, that there's another person there in the building.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that has been a safeguard that we are pretty um consistent with when needed.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um I absolutely a hundred percent trust Gina's gut.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um and she knows her clients, you know, she knows the scenario and the situation.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: So um, and even not in a therapeutic setting, even in a ministry setting on campus, on church, it's like, you know, she, I don't know if you guys know Gina, but one thing to know is she's not a hugger.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: She's not, you know, touchy-feely hugs everybody, just not into it, and that's okay.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there are some overly affectionate um people that have great intentions, but they just want to hug because that's their that's their love language or that's their how they express.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And just because they think it's theirs, that means everybody should be a hugger, and it's not really the case, right?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we have you know some some verbal cues that I'll try and be in tune with as punch as possible and just kind of be aware of you know who's on my radar a little bit, right?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: And just um interject if I need to gently and uh and just kind of go from there.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, but yeah, just being aware, and for me that's always something I'm constantly trying to work on is just not being preoccupied with myself or what I'm doing or who I'm talking with, and that's fine.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: But like who's around me, just kind of keep your head on a swivel, pretty much, I guess, right?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think in ministry that is so important what you said, um, being aware and trusting your gut.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because I Jill and I talked off before, I wasn't sure I was gonna share this, but I am because I think someone out there, I'm not particularly a needy or overprotective.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: I pretty I feel really confident in my marriage and safe in it.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: But we were pastoring several years ago at a church, and this one lady kept hugging Scott in a way that just felt off.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll never forget on the patio one day, there's a group of people, and the way she hugged them, all of my alarms went off.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I literally walked over to the group and Scott was standing there and he just finished preaching and she was thanking him for the sermon.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I looked at her and I moved her hand off of him and I said, Never touch my husband again.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: You can talk to him, but never physically touch him.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: And Scott's eyes were like, And it was just something in my gut like that was not an okay, something was wrong.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I again, we've been around thousands of families at this point, and something about her, and she just gave me a discouraging and she kind of laughed it off.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And three months later, she had an affair with someone at our church and ended their marriage.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was so thankful that I was brave enough and to tell Scott, and he also knew Debbie's not real, she doesn't do that.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like every week I'm telling people, don't touch my husband.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and Scott is a hugger and after service and he does hug people.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I just think you do have to trust your gut, especially when it comes, and I'm to this day so thankful that I was brave enough to say something.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because it I think that one could have gone south, had not intentionally on Scott's part, but absolutely just something wasn't right.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Sam and I are both huggers, so we have problems.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: We both hugging is part of our love language.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: However, we have realized uh that's not everybody's love language, and nor should we probably hug everybody that we see or not even know or whatever, because we don't know their story.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but uh so for the most part, let me just say if we already know you, for example, if I see Debbie, you know, I'm gonna hug her.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: I already, you know, I'm not gonna just say, how you doing?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Can I hug you?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna hug her because we already have this relationship.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but but men, um, so what I have through our learning experience in our marriage and our life, I try to hug men on the side, uh, not a full body hug.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: There's a difference, right?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, some of the women that come up and give my husband a full body hug, I want to slap upside the head and say, What in the world are you doing?
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, anyway, it's like, okay, that hug's a little bit too long, you're done.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: I I haven't had the courage to slap him upside the head yet.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: But if the Holy Spirit tells me, watch out, because it's gonna happen.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, I try to hug men on, you know, decide, like, hey, it's great to see you, whatever.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: And Sam tries to do the same.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: So we're like, okay, but if somebody comes at us, we're like, okay, you know, whatever.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: Or for a lot of men uh that I say good morning to when I was a pastor's spouse or whatever uh in church, I would always try to offer my hand just to shake their hand first.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes they would pull me in for a hug, you know, but that was, you know, just not real big.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but I always tried to offer my hand first.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, we're huggers and we had to watch out for that.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: And we literally had to say, okay, we need to do some side hugging because it just needs to be not it, we don't get everybody doesn't get a full-on hug, you know, only our sweet family and sweet friends, you know, kind of thing or whatever.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, that's just a little thing that we've done uh because we both are huggers.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: And even like just nuts or just, you know, high five or something that isn't like, you know, overly affectionate.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: But uh Jill, yeah, I mean, if if you see a hug and it's it's lasting like a few seconds longer than socially acceptable, I mean that could be a red flag.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing too, I thought of is that um with Gina, she has an amazing sniffer.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, her nose, she could pick up scents like you wouldn't believe.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: And the other issue for her is like when she when you got close talkers, maybe, or you've got people that, yeah, they want to come in and do a hug and whatnot.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: But even regardless, if they're right there, she is very sensitive to um scents.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: So colognes, perfumes, all those things.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's just and some people wear more than they should.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: And some people maybe should wear more.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, right?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, but that's something to consider too, as far as um just uh it's a factor, I think, and not so much the inappropriateness, but within the context of just scent and just how just think just being aware, like you said.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I've learned something about Gina.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: When you said sniffer, I thought you meant sniffing out possible bad players, and you meant truly the cologne or perfume that you're wearing things, literal, but also it does apply figuratively.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that is still very true, Debbie.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because she's a counselor, I would think she my husband lives in oblivious.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like I really think in his mind, there's no bad players out there.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's and so I I think when you come from a counseling background, you're a little more sensitive.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And if you've been in ministry long enough, especially to our new young listeners out there, man, every church, the even though the church, the names of the people change, every church has the same people.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there is a bad player in every church, every ministry, every player.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it doesn't matter.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: And little church, big church, you're gonna, they're just easier to hide in big churches.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you do have to be careful and watch out for those red flags.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you and your spouse, I think communication is also a really key.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the boundaries, how they've changed for Scott and I over the decades is we openly talk about it now and have different boundaries because he flies all the time without me for different retreats or different places.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: And one of his colleagues is a female.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: So are they gonna go to lunch together alone?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Just the different trust factors and you know, the things where before we oh when we were pastoring, as you know, we have women on staff and as pastors and we love them and we're so proud of them.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I would say to him, you can have lunch with them once alone, but then someone you have to invite a third party to join you on those lunches.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's not you, and even though I loved the women he's been on that we've had on staff with us, but I just thought, nope, we're just not even gonna allow that to become possible conversation for someone else in the church or the enemy to have a tiny baby foothold there.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, exactly.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say we've had two, uh we've had great women on staff with us too, and we absolutely love them and they're wonderful.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't want any of this to sound like women are the uh the the bad people or something like that because they're not.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, men and women have different needs, and if those needs are not being met by their spouse or in their life, uh sometimes that Slippery slope comes to your coworkers.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why you just have to be a warrior after everybody's integrity that you're sitting down at the table with, that you're on staff with, uh, you have to be above board.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it doesn't matter uh if they're single or married or whatever, but everybody has needs.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: And if you can't articulate it, sometimes it just you get filled and you want to be around that person more.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's a need that's being filled that you didn't even know you needed.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but your spouse is your teammate, and that's why communication is so important to say, hey, I I uh I need this a little bit more, or I need to talk about this more, or just whatever, because you are each other's need fillers.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so, but that's why so we've we've had great women on staff for sure.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: Sam has had hired some of the best out there, and we love them.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't want them to feel any of us to feel like uh the women are the bad people here because they're not, because some kind some of the men that are in ministry as well are not getting their needs filled by their spouse, who maybe they've been married two months or 200 years, and they haven't talked to it about it.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so just sometimes in an innocent conversation, that slippery slope can start.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, Debbie, nobody wakes up and says, Hey, this next year I'm gonna have an affair and ruin everything I've ever built for built with God and just ruin it.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's a slow, slippery slope.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it goes from compliments, it goes from an email that somebody read wrong, you know, all this kind of stuff.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: We just have to be warriors for how some people, how everybody, I have to hate to say it to put the pressure on it, is viewing our marriage and how we view our marriage and how we view our relationships with other people and with our spouse having relationships with other people.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: But if we have that, if we have a sense of the person who is sitting across the desk or the table or chair from us and have uh an appropriate level of um respect for their integrity and their marriage, then how do I react?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: How do I say?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: What do I do?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: Where do I go with that person?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: How do I sit with that person?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: How do I work with that person?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: That is that's just something that um is not taught, honestly, uh necessarily.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's something that honestly you just have to figure out and do.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it is it and it is a must to have a longevity in ministry, I think.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: I want to hear your perspective, David, because I think it'll be really interesting as a male spouse, because your wife is around a lot of men.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: There isn't, this is not gender specific by any means.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, um, I chalk it up to look, people are gonna people, and some people people harder than others, and some people don't people very well at all.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: So um being like I said, just being aware, being attentive, um, being present, um, I think is is a huge um first step as a spouse.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say for like for younger ministry couples, um don't don't have the expectation that you're gonna get things right all the time, every time.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna, like I said, you're there's gonna be some shots that get past the goalie, and you're gonna have to learn from those experiences.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: I have had plenty of of times where, and as a guy, I I took it a lot probably a little more harsh than I should have, but still from a protective male spouse standpoint, it is it's a little bit more challenging um when those fails happen because you feel as a male spouse like, dang, I I missed the ball on this one, I didn't pick up this or that.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I should have done A, B, or C or whatever it is.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so for guys, for male spouses, that could be a little bit of a harder hit, um, not just to your ego, besides all that.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about just being able to commit and follow through when you want to protect your your spouse.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, to me, like I said, I I've I've had some shortcomings on that that I have absolutely learned from and have built on for sure.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: But for younger couples, I would just say, look, don't um don't beat yourself up.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it it takes it takes practice, like with anything, right?
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Practicing in those scenarios when they do come up, and they will come up 100%, right?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, to be able to, again, keep that communication consistent, keep it open, and just talk to each other about um any red flags you don't feel comfortable with that you want your partner to know about that can help, and for the partner to be able to say, okay, look, I've got your back, I'm with you.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, just enjoy ministry, but like I said, head on a swivel.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's good because I wanted us to end with what would you tell young couples?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that's so head on a swivel.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's head on a swivel.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then on your comment on though, David, the one thing I would add to that is if your spouse doesn't listen to you, like you're crazy.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way that's that shouldn't be a red flag.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: You're overreacting.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: You're what I mean, my purpose of my advice would be go to another pastor or spouse in your church.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: And if you and then if you have to, even in our denomination, you'd go to the district superintendent level, right?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think those when you're trusting your gut and it doesn't feel right, you do whatever you can to protect your marriage.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I know in my mind, if she's voicing something that's of concern, uh, I better well listen and listen good because it's coming from a place that number one, she trusts me enough with her feelings, with her information about um about what's happening to make me aware of it.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Not that she, you know, assumes or expects me to protect her, but it's more about just communicating feelings and being heard, right?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: She wants to feel heard, she wants to feel, hey, I'm feeling this way about this situation that I may be in.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: If you see this, hey, just kind of, you know, just circle around, or just kind of be be within earshot, kind of a thing, right?
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it it starts with trusting your spouse's gut.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: And here's the thing: even if her gut was wrong, so what?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's not it's not a negative.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'd rather err on the side of caution and err on the side of, hey, we're just we're gonna ministry together and and but still, if what uh her gut um feeling is didn't happen and it it didn't present itself, then we're good.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a big deal.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I'd rather be I'd rather have that information um and have her communicate that to me and me be, you know, not overly weird about any of that stuff, right?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: But just aware and like I said, head on a swivel.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: One closing thought from each of us on uh one creative way you could protect your marriage in ministry.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: It starts with you guys as a couple.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: It starts with the ministry couple, with the the the trust level, um the the reps, putting reps in, I think, in terms of being in situations and experiences that will um increase that trust.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and also along with that, uh communication will be improved also.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: So trust and communication, I think, definitely go hand in hand.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would just say just uh keep keep working on that, keep talking to each other, trust each other's gut, not just a one-way street with the with the pastor or the spouse, but it goes both ways.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um sometimes maybe Gina may miss something that I pick up, uh, and vice versa.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: You never know.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: No one can see everything all at once, as much as we have a head on our swivel, but um definitely um trust each other's gut, communicate as often as you can.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's no such thing, I think, sometimes as overcommunicating, especially when you're in ministry situation and just just relaying what you're seeing, what you're feeling.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but at the same time, you know, like I said, you want to, you're all in uh with your heart, you're all in um to doing what Jesus did.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're all in for advancing his purpose uh in your ministry.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: 100%, David.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Agree with everything you said, and then just some practical stuff.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, ministry these days, if you're starting out, you have social media, you have so many uh different technologies that we did not have starting out, so we didn't even have to monitor them.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I would say, you know, uh, for example, Sam and I have every we have our passwords to our phones, each other's, we have our passwords to every social media that we're on.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody has uh access to anything they want at any time.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: There just has to be a whole surrender of here, you this is me, you can check it out.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and if there isn't, uh that that's just kind of a small red flag, in my my opinion.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you just have to be just try to do your best to be above board at every turn.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that incorporates social media and emails.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I I mentioned emails real quick, I know that's been around forever, but um, another thing we've learned, excuse me, in our time is everybody reads an email from their own uh emotional voice.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so if you meant something that wasn't meant to be and somebody took it that way, um, you you need to read your email before you hit send to say, who am I sending this to, or blind copy somebody in or copy somebody in so everybody can see it's just not the two uh if you need to correspond that way.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, just be careful of your words, uh, of your actions and everything.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I know it seems like it's a lot of pressure, doesn't it?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're talking about all this, like, oh, we have to act a certain way, we have to do all kinds of stuff.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: And it really is be yourself, but be yourself in a loving, trusting uh marriage relationship.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: And like Debbie said, if you have a red flag or that that sixth sense that something isn't right, talk to your spouse for sure.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: And if he or she isn't willing, you you need to go and talk and investigate.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: Your that sixth sense is the Holy Spirit.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: He works through whispers, nudges, prods, the whole thing.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: Pay attention to that and just have that conversation.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: And uh the Lord, the Lord will will grant, you know, some help through that, I believe.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and in closing, I think I would just say make sure with all the technology that you and your spouse share all the same passwords, no private accounts, period.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: No, none, zero, zilch nada.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that is just a great safety wall to protect both of you.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because again, it's your reputation.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter if nothing happens, the reputation will destroy you if someone accuses one of you of something.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's enough.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that that's heartbreaking after I can't even imagine after 36 years of ministry and Scott get or I get accused of something, that will destroy the ministry.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so make sure you have all your guardrails up.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: And we do live in a day and age where we have to talk about it.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: So we also want you to love ministry and enjoy it because 99% of the time it's wonderful.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: David, thank you so much for joining us on this conversation today.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, friends, for listening to Beside Every Calling.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: And again, if this conversation is something that had you thought, oh, my friend should hear this, please forward it right now.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: Stop, text it on, email it.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you're on YouTube, share it with someone over there because we would love to build this community so we have a safe space to talk about things we don't often talk about publicly in ministry.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: So again, thanks everybody for joining us, and we'll talk to you on the next episode of Beside Every Calling.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: If this conversation felt a little too familiar, like, were they sitting in my living room this week familiar?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's your sign.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Text this episode to one ministry spouse who might need it today.
• 34:29
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• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: It helps more spouses find this beautiful, sometimes overlooked, but wildly important community.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next time on Beside Every Calling.