Latest / Mini Scroll / TikTok cake pop drama, singer Ernest vs. Planet Deep Blue + Lizzo x The Swiftologist on "flop" album

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TikTok cake pop drama, singer Ernest vs. Planet Deep Blue + Lizzo x The Swiftologist on "flop" album · Mini Scroll

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  Coming up today on Mini Scroll Cake Pop TikTok has descended
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  into chaos. A small business owner is going
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  head to Every Monday through Thursday
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  and sometimes Fridays, I'm your host, Lauren Meissner, the
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  founder of the Australian youth digital media brand Centennial
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  World. Welcome back to Mini Scroll
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  everyone and thank you so much to today's sponsor, The Commons.
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  All right, welcome back to Mini scroll everyone.
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  Thank you so much for such a warm welcome back for us
• 1:29
  yesterday. You guys were all so sweet and I
• 1:32
  was definitely on struggle St. more than I thought I was.
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  When I was editing the episode back, I was like these opinions.
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  I didn't hit like any of the things I wanted to say.
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  I felt like half of it didn't make any sense.
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  But I am feeling so much better today.
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  Every day I'm getting better obviously, and I'm feeling a lot
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  better. So I'm ready to get into it.
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  But before I do, Please remember to rate, review and subscribe.
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  So if you can hit that star rating on Spotify, leave us an
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  Apple review, subscribe to us on YouTube, follow us on Tiktok.
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  We have a mini scroll Tiktok Now we're about to hit 10,000
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  followers. I think like today, we'll
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  probably hit it today. So she's been growing really
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  fast, which is really exciting. All right, let's get into the
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  stories for today. So the first story that I have
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  for you guys today, there is some niche drama going down
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  between two cake pop Tiktok creators, Sweet treats by Ashley
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  and Cake by Katie. So Katie specifically has a
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  pretty big following on TikTok. She has 740,000 followers at the
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  time of recording. Ashley is newer to content and
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  she has amassed a significant amount of followers since all of
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  this erupted. 2 days ago she posted about hitting 25,000
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  followers and now her account sits at 240,000.
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  So even though this has come from drama, I am sure when she
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  can look back on this when she's like out of kind of the initial
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  panic of like what has just ensued, she's probably going to
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  be grateful because this is going to be really amazing for
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  her career, I imagine. OK, so they both share baking
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  and like behind the scenes style content of their cake pop
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  businesses. Over the past few days, the two
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  have been going back and forth online.
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  To make a Long story short, Katie is basically accusing
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  Ashley of sharing her copyrighted Fruity Pebbles Cake
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  Pops recipe in her content. You guys, why are we a trademark
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  podcast? I can't stress enough.
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  And the second story that I have today is about trade marking
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  things. I was like, what is going on?
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  I mean, I know that this is just like a hot topic right now
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  online. So people are like bringing
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  their trademark issues to TikTok to talk about because people are
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  like really engaged in this topic.
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  But like, I swear I'm not trying to find stories related to like
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  legal matters and trademarks. I'm like the last person who
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  should be talking about this. I'm sure if you guys are lawyers
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  or like illegal at all, you listen to me cover these stories
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  cringing 'cause I'm sure I'm getting shit wrong.
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  You guys can always correct me in the comments 100%.
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  But like, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be a trademark
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  podcast, but like we are, it's like mini scroll Podcast TM
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  right now. I don't know what's going on.
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  OK, so allegedly Katie messaged Ashley telling her to take down
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  the content that included the recipe.
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  She had also made videos and Instagram stories about it,
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  which I will get into. So I will start with one video
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  posted by Katie where she explains what went down from her
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  perspective. It has since been deleted, but
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  there are of course repost floating around TikTok.
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  In the video, Katie is in her kitchen baking and chatting to
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  the camera. She alleges that one of her
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  copyrighted recipes was posted in full to TikTok.
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  The copyright claims, she notes, is attached to her online recipe
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  book. This is worth noting because we
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  actually have discussed copyright in relation to recipes
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  before. Last May, when Nagi from Recipe
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  10 Eats made similar allegations against Brookie Cookies.
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  And at that time, we noted that there were some questions
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  around, like whether you can claim copyright over a recipe
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  because copyright doesn't technically protect an idea or
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  facts, rather how they are expressed.
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  So recipes can be kind of like a Gray area because they are
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  arguably factual instructions. Again, I'm not a legal podcast,
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  OK? I'm not a lawyer.
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  Let me know if you guys disagree with that if you are in the
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  legal profession. That is what we have found from
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  our research. Nonetheless, in this video,
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  Katie noted that this is something that happens to her
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  pretty frequently. So because of this, she has a
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  protocol in place where creators who quote UN quote, steal her
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  recipes will be asked to take them down within 24 hours.
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  In this instance, Ashley eventually got in contact with
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  Katie and said she had never bought a copy of her book and
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  also took the video down. Katie also names Ashley and asks
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  to have a conversation with her. Earlier this weekend I found out
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  that one of my copyrighted recipes was posted in full on
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  here for 77 thousand people to see.
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  That's how many people viewed it.
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  But the thing here is, is that my online virtual recipe book
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  does have a copyright on it. So when someone has a copyright
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  that you cannot take and distribute the work within that
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  book, unfortunately, this happens to me very, very
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  frequently. And more unfortunately with
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  Baker's you wouldn't believe on Reddit, on TikTok, they're
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  taking. And when I say taking my
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  recipes, I don't mean they're like making what they see me
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  making the video. They're taking my full recipe
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  from the book, putting it in the comments in the video on Reddit,
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  on Facebook. And that's just not OK.
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  So because of this, I have an attorney.
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  I let everybody know the same thing.
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  You have 24 hours to take the video down.
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  I hadn't heard anything. I did make an Instagram story
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  just saying, hey, friends, don't do this.
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  I was trying to get this creator's attention.
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  I wasn't getting a response. Once I got a response from her,
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  I took the video down. One thing I take very, very,
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  very seriously is what I have created myself and that's my
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  recipes. Now this person reached out to
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  me and let me know that they actually had never bought a copy
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  of my recipe book. I didn't get any information
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  after that and e-mail a name. I was blocked, so I wasn't able
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  to confirm anything, but thankfully the video was taken
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  down. We're obviously not going to
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  pursue. I'm not sure.
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  Ashley, I would love to have a conversation with you, but at
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  the end of the day, this is my livelihood, so if something like
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  that is threatened, like my copyright being violated, I do
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  have to follow up on it. OK, so that was Katie's POV.
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  Now this is Ashley's. She has taken to TikTok to share
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  her side of the story and also posted screenshots of her
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  conversation with Katie. They are also not live, but of
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  course it's all floating around online.
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  So many social media users feel Katie's description of her own
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  tone in the messages doesn't actually match what was sent,
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  according to these screenshots, and others have cast doubt on
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  her claim about the 24 hour time frame, suggesting the timeline
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  also doesn't quite add up. Sweet Treats by Ashley actually
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  shares the text messages between her and the other creator, Cake
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  by Katie. She tries to explain to her that
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  I don't have your recipe book. I don't have any of that.
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  I just took your recipe that you posted online and I gave you
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  credit for it. And you can actually still see
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  that video right here. But if you look back, Cake by
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  Katie says stop lying. You posted my exact recipe when
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  Cake by Katie claims that she has some things that she throws
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  in there that the people online would not know about.
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  Sweet Traits by Ashley also explains that she posted her
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  video today at 9:30 AM. She literally gave me 1 1/2
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  seconds to respond to her DM. She sent me at 937 before she
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  brought it online. Ashley also posted a video on
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  TikTok that has since gone viral with over 8 million views. 8
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  million views for like a pretty new account is crazy.
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  Ashley is sitting in her car very visibly emotional.
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  She's crying and she addressed this is Katie's allegation that
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  she stole her Fruity Pebbles recipe and like the looming
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  threat of this lawsuit. So Ashley admits that she does
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  take inspiration from other creators, adding that she has
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  only been making cake pops for about two weeks.
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  She says she'd never purchased Katie's cookbook and instead
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  based her approach on a video Katie post online about cake mix
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  ratios, improvising the recipe from there.
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  And then she finished by emphasizing that this is just a
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  new hobby for her and that she wants no part of this drama.
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  I never thought I'd have to fucking make a video like this
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  and like I'm fucking crying in a Walmart parking lot for God
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  sakes but. Cakes by.
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  Katie made a video about me saying that I stole her Fruity
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  Pebbles recipe. I use a lot of inspiration from
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  a lot of different creators. I just started my cake pop thing
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  like 2 fucking weeks ago. She posted a video on like her
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  cake mix ratios and that's what I used.
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  I never fucking bought her cookbook.
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  I never, I don't know her exact recipe.
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  In her video she says I keep a couple secrets just for me
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  because she copyrights her cookbook.
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  So I don't have any way of knowing her entire exact recipe.
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  I just used. I improvised.
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  I was like OK I have the cake mix ratio for this.
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  It looks really fucking good. How do I make this into actual
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  cake pop dough? So I used my own shit and I
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  fucking just posted it because it's what I did and she's
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  fucking made a whole video about me threatening to sue me and
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  because I stole her copyrighted recipe.
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  Girl, I don't have your recipe. I never bought your fucking
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  cookbook like what are you talking about?
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  And I started this shit 2 fucking weeks ago.
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  Now you're coming at me and she messaged me and she's like
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  you're lying. I'm fucking suing you, you hear
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  from my lawyer. Her comments are so supportive
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  and even Snooki my queen, if you guys know anything about me, you
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  know Jersey Shore my number one. Oh my God, inject that show into
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  my veins. I have watched every single
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  episode of the OG of course and also family vacation.
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  Like I am that committed. I stay up to date with family
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  vacation, OK? Snooki my queen was in the
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  comments saying that she supports her.
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  OK. So soon after this Ashley shared
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  another statement on the situation and this time it was
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  written she wrote. Hi my beautiful people, thank
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  you all for your support. Truly it means the world.
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  But please stop the hate comments toward Katie.
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  I'm sure she got the point and will do better in the future.
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  I don't want anyone to ever feel the way that I felt when this
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  all started. I don't condone the bullying or
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  attacking of anyone. That's why I made my video in
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  the 1st place so I would stop receiving hate comments from her
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  followers. I just want to move on from the
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  whole situation and hope people can be kinder and supportive of
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  one another going forward. I see your messages and know I
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  am grateful for the but please stop the hate.
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  OK then. Katie has now gone on to post
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  another video apologizing about how all of this went down South.
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  In this follow up, Katie claimed she had acted on bad advice and
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  had not fully understood the distinction between copywriting
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  an individual recipe versus a cookbook as a whole.
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  She also admitted that she had not handled the situation well
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  on a personal level, recognizing that she had been unkind to
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  Ashley and quick to assume the worst.
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  Good morning friends. Yesterday I really fucked up and
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  I'm not proud of how I handled the situation.
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  To quickly tell you what happened, I saw a cake pop
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  recipe written within a TikTok caption.
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  I thought it came from my recipe book because I was tagged and I
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  handled the situation poorly. The legal advice I received in
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  the past said this was wrong because I had a copyright on the
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  book. But you guys quickly informed me
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  and now, now I know that that's not the case.
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  A recipe book is copyrighted as a whole, not on individual
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  recipes. I was confused.
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  I was acting on advice that I have been given in the past and
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  I didn't lead with my heart. I didn't lead with kindness and
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  obviously that showed. But I do just want everybody to
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  know that I take accountability for the way I responded to
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  Ashley. I know that Ashley didn't get
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  the best version of me yesterday and you don't know me and you
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  can say what you want, but if you did know me, you would know
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  how heavy that sits on my heart and how sorry I am that she did
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  get the worst version of me. I totally hear you guys.
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  I do use box cake, but I do have over 70 recipes that I want
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  people to make that I made simple for everybody to use.
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  I can't say enough that I understand Ashley didn't have
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  bad intentions, that I should have taken the time before
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  reacting. Sorry, I feel like I was using
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  the word trade marking earlier when I was saying these were
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  trademarked recipes. Maybe I was saying copyrighted.
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  I'm not trying to be a legal podcast, clearly.
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  OK. So she went on to essentially
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  like try to take some accountability for the
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  situation. She admitted that she should
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  have taken time before reacting. And at the same time, she spoke
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  to the toll that it has taken on her family and herself,
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  describing the volume of hate and death threats that she has
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  received as frightening and uncalled for.
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  I mean, yeah, the way that people get so enraged and so
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  aggressive around like, this very, like, niche interpersonal
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  drama, like, this kind of stuff happens so often on TikTok.
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  And I'm not saying that like Katie was not in the wrong here,
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  of course, but the way that people react to this, it's like
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  as if these people who are under controversy, under scrutiny,
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  it's like they have done something so horrifically
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  personal to us as like the Internet user is like they've
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  done something like the worst thing you could do to a person,
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  like they've done it to us. People go so wild.
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  I've seen a lot of questions around when creators are like,
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  I'm getting death threats, I'm, you know, getting all these
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  horrible DMS and I've seen people question if that's just
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  for like attention or sympathy. If people say that and it's not
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  totally true, I can tell you I have seen a many a death threat
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  in a creator's DMS IA 100% believe that.
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  And I'm sure we can also understand that from looking at
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  the comment sections in these videos.
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  Like, people get so enraged, they get so out of control about
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  these things. OK, so, you know, death threats
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  and like, horrific DMS and stuff aside, the apology in general
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  hasn't really landed with users throughout this whole thing.
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  Many users pointed out that Katie openly uses boxed cake mix
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  in her recipes, which obviously has LED people to question if
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  her recipe can really be considered hers to begin with.
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  And then the inclusion of Fruity Pebbles, which is a very popular
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  cereal, like she's not making that cereal from scratch, is a
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  key ingredient which is added to the skepticism and many feel
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  like it kind of further weakens her copyright claim.
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  I don't know if I agree with that sentiment.
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  I think it can still be somebody's original recipe just
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  because they didn't make every single ingredient from scratch.
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  In regard to her apology specifically, a common sentiment
• 15:14
  is that she may not have come forward if Ashley's video had
• 15:18
  not gone so viral, and that the real catalyst was the threat of
• 15:22
  losing brand deals. Because Daisy Makes, which is a
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  cake pop focused company, posted a statement to Instagram
• 15:28
  announcing they were suspending their collaboration with Katie,
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  effective immediately. They wrote quote at Daisy makes,
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  we believe kindness matters. We do not condone bullying,
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  personal attacks or unkind behavior toward anyone.
• 15:40
  While we cannot control what people choose to say or do on
• 15:43
  the Internet, we can control who we choose to build meaningful
• 15:46
  collaborations with. We will always stand behind the
• 15:49
  values of treating others with respect, grace and
• 15:51
  professionalism. And that's the power of Snooki.
• 15:54
  OK, if Snooki's behind you, the internet's behind you.
• 15:59
  OK, The next story that I have for you guys today, more
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  trademark drama. Like I said, we actually got
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  tagged in this on Tiktok, which is hilarious asking us to cover
• 16:11
  this because like we are the legal podcast for Internet
• 16:14
  culture. Now.
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  I I don't know how we got here. I'm sorry, you guys.
• 16:18
  I don't mean for this to be what the podcast has turned into and
• 16:22
  like the fact that people are tagging us and like legal drama
• 16:25
  being like, can you cover this? Like I am not a lawyer.
• 16:28
  I'll cover it from like a controversy scandal perspective
• 16:31
  but like please no get your legal advice from someone else
• 16:35
  OK? A country singer named Ernest is
• 16:38
  at the center of a trademark dispute over his new album Deep
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  Blue after Brooke Buckham, the owner of a small sustainable
• 16:45
  clothing brand Planet Deep Blue, accused him of infringing on her
• 16:48
  trademark. Planet Deep Blue is billed as
• 16:51
  quote St. wear for the ocean. It produces sustainable American
• 16:54
  made 100% cotton clothing seeking to clean the ocean
• 16:58
  through sustainable St. wear. The branding is stylized as Deep
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  Blue, all in capital letters with a full stop at the end.
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  So Brooke posted to TikTok five days ago claiming trademark
• 17:09
  infringements, and it has since accumulated 1.5 million views.
• 17:13
  In it, she alleges Ernest reached out to her on Instagram
• 17:15
  back in January, letting her know his upcoming album would be
• 17:19
  titled Deep Blue and floating the idea of a collaboration.
• 17:22
  After some conversations with his manager and attorney, his
• 17:25
  team ended up backing out, saying it would be a losing
• 17:28
  venture. They allegedly offered to to buy
• 17:31
  the designs that she had already created instead, but Brooke
• 17:34
  declined the offer. Ernest has since launched merch
• 17:37
  for his new album and in the TikTok.
• 17:39
  Brooke compares the designs in the TikTok but also discusses
• 17:43
  the materials of the clothing. She notes that it is a cotton
• 17:46
  slash polyester blend, suggesting that it is
• 17:49
  greenwashing. Essentially, Brooke says she
• 17:51
  does not want to be affiliated with Greenwashing and this is a
• 17:54
  blatant trademark infringement. She claims to own the registered
• 17:57
  trademark for the stylized wordmark Deep Blue with the
• 18:00
  period at the end. Per the screenshot she provided,
• 18:03
  she filed the trademark in February 2025 and it was
• 18:06
  registered in April of this year.
• 18:08
  As a result, Brooke shares that she has since gone on to issue a
• 18:11
  cease and desist. This country music singer is
• 18:13
  using my brand and my name on his merchandise and is now
• 18:16
  ignoring our cease and desist letters.
• 18:18
  Back in January of this year, Ernest reached out to us on
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  Instagram, forming us at His new album being released would be
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  titled Deep Blue. That is the name of my brand.
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  He also informed me that he purchased some clothing and that
• 18:30
  he wanted to do a collaboration that would remove Ocean Plastic
• 18:33
  or his Deep Blue album. I said that sounds wonderful.
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  And then I got into contact with his manager and with his
• 18:37
  attorney. After many months of back and
• 18:39
  forth and lots of time and resources invested into this
• 18:43
  collab, he basically could not come to an agreement on how we
• 18:46
  would structure this. I created this brand because the
• 18:48
  fashion industry has a major problem with pollution,
• 18:51
  synthetic textiles, garment worker exploitation, and I
• 18:55
  wanted to do absolutely the We only use natural fabrics, 100%
• 18:59
  cotton. We only manufacture in the
• 19:01
  United States, given that it's pretty expensive to produce
• 19:04
  clothing this way and most people are not willing to do so.
• 19:07
  They got back to me and told me that this would be a losing
• 19:09
  venture for Earnest and then they requested to purchase the
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  design so that they could create their own merch with my name and
• 19:16
  with my design. I declined this offer.
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  On April 28th, this post popped up on my Instagram feed from
• 19:22
  Ernest showing a deep blue T-shirt.
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  On May 5th, I saw this post on Instagram showing the hoodie and
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  the T-shirt that is now available for purchase on his
• 19:31
  merch store. This is the T-shirt that they
• 19:34
  were selling and this is the sweatshirt that I designed for
• 19:36
  them originally. OK, in a follow up video, Brooke
• 19:39
  doubled down on the fact that she doesn't have a problem with
• 19:41
  the design, it's a problem with the trademark.
• 19:43
  She also added that Ernest's team responded on the final day
• 19:47
  of the cease and desist deadline, but they didn't remove
• 19:49
  the merchandise from his shop. So Ernest has addressed the
• 19:52
  situation a couple of times publicly.
• 19:54
  So in an Instagram story, he alleged that Planet Deep Blue
• 19:56
  filed a new trademark application for the words Deep
• 19:59
  Blue, noting that this filing came after his album dropped,
• 20:03
  pointing out the trademark was filed on May 24th, while his
• 20:06
  album came out on May 1st. Brooke did acknowledge this in
• 20:10
  another TikTok, saying that there was an earlier trademark,
• 20:12
  one that. She did previously include in
• 20:14
  her videos and she captioned the post quote at Earnest.
• 20:17
  If you're going to comment on trademark infringement, please
• 20:19
  show the full context. You and your team have seen both
• 20:22
  trademarks. So 2 days ago he posted a TikTok
• 20:25
  addressing this situation. He says he's not ripping off
• 20:28
  Planet Deep Blues designs. However, it is worth noting that
• 20:32
  is actually like, not Brooke's point.
• 20:34
  That's not what she's trying to say in her video.
• 20:36
  Obviously, we don't really know what's happening behind the
• 20:38
  scenes, but publicly, from what we know, that's not really her
• 20:40
  point. He also says that his lawyers
• 20:42
  have been responding to her inquiries.
• 20:44
  Regardless, he's encouraged fans to support Planet Deep Blue and
• 20:47
  insisted he has no issue with the company.
• 20:49
  Fighting for my life on social media right now.
• 20:51
  Good morning. I'm Ernest.
• 20:52
  This is this is the first episode of Damned if you Do,
• 20:57
  Damned if You Don't. I have no personal beef or
• 21:00
  problems with Planet Deep Blue. She's a badass.
• 21:04
  She's making great clothes, and she's doing it for a good cause.
• 21:08
  That's how I've felt since day one when I originally reached
• 21:11
  out to her after I'd finished my album Deep Blue and gotten the
• 21:14
  packaging done. And we're starting to think
• 21:16
  about merch. We had our little, you know, our
• 21:19
  vinyl packaging with brand DNA is what you call it.
• 21:23
  So you had the Deep Blue cursive, some anchor rope,
• 21:27
  etcetera that we would be using on the vinyl packaging already.
• 21:32
  So we just wanted her to mock up a couple designs to see, to see
• 21:38
  what we could do as a collab, as a collab with Planet Deep Blue.
• 21:43
  And so the the image that she's been posting saying that we
• 21:47
  stole her design, everything on that shirt besides a palm tree
• 21:53
  was in our packaging. That's our cursive.
• 21:55
  That's all that stuff that we use on the vinyl.
• 21:57
  If you open up the vinyl on the inside of the vinyl, because we
• 22:00
  want the merchandise and the vinyl to all live in the same
• 22:04
  world, we were going to have to end up charging like 180 bucks
• 22:06
  for a sweater. And as much as I genuinely do
• 22:10
  love what she's doing at Deep Blue, I'm just not going to make
• 22:14
  my fans pay that. So we used our in house
• 22:18
  designer, put it on a shirt and in exchange, you know, donating
• 22:23
  money to Tennessee River Keepers, which is this much
• 22:27
  compared to, you know, the bigger picture here.
• 22:31
  And I agree. If there's one thing I did wrong
• 22:33
  this whole time, the fast fashion industry is terrible for
• 22:37
  the environment. And that's in direct contrast to
• 22:40
  honestly what I believe. I know it's direct contrast to
• 22:43
  what planet Deep Blue Madam believes and so many others.
• 22:47
  But I'm not stealing a body's designs.
• 22:49
  I've supported small, small businesses, independent
• 22:52
  creators, my wife, a graphic design artist and a
• 22:55
  photographer. So it's unfortunate to see this
• 22:57
  thing get out of hand. But that's the Internet.
• 22:59
  You've already chosen the side. This is kind of just me speaking
• 23:01
  my piece. Okay, so tapping in a tick tock
• 23:04
  lawyer. A lawyer has weighed in on
• 23:07
  TikTok, offering her own take and some clarity on the legal
• 23:10
  side. So she argues the designs
• 23:12
  themselves aren't really the issue, what matters is the name,
• 23:15
  since it's quote the exact same name for the exact same goods.
• 23:19
  She also notes that trademark law often comes down to a
• 23:22
  subjective question rather than a clear cut answer.
• 23:25
  This is from lawyer Kelly. Is this trademark infringement
• 23:28
  between Ernest and the company Deep Blue?
• 23:31
  So first of all, when it comes to trademark infringement, it
• 23:34
  your brand does not need to be exactly identical to someone
• 23:37
  else's in order for there to be infringement.
• 23:40
  It can be too similar in terms of the way it looks, the way it
• 23:43
  sounds, a similar meaning all of those things can still be
• 23:46
  infringement. So the fact that the brand Deep
• 23:49
  Blue has a period up and has no real it doesn't make a
• 23:54
  difference because Deep Blue and Deep Blue with a period sound
• 23:58
  the same. They look pretty similar and
• 24:00
  they have the same meaning and they give off the same
• 24:02
  impression. I also think it's obviously
• 24:04
  pretty telling here that they started to at least attempt to
• 24:08
  have conversations about some type of collaboration and then
• 24:11
  obviously it did not work out and Ernest went ahead and did it
• 24:15
  anyway, even though clearly the fact that they were trying to
• 24:19
  collab in the beginning shows that there was at least some
• 24:22
  understanding. It would seem they're part of
• 24:25
  the fact that this brand was owned by Deep Blue and not them.
• 24:30
  Otherwise what would the point of them even be trying to come
• 24:34
  up with the collaboration before they would have just come out
• 24:37
  with their own Deep Blue merch initially if they thought that
• 24:40
  they were not in the wrong? It also does not really matter
• 24:44
  how close or different the designs are between what she
• 24:48
  initially created and what they initially released.
• 24:51
  It also doesn't really matter about how close or different the
• 24:55
  designs look. So it doesn't really matter
• 24:56
  about what she designed initially for it to be and then
• 24:59
  what they initially came out with.
• 25:01
  It matters here about the name. So what we're looking at is Deep
• 25:05
  Blue for merchandise, what Ernest is doing verse the
• 25:08
  trademark Deep Blue with a period also for merchandise,
• 25:12
  right? Are those things too similar?
• 25:14
  Could someone potentially be confused and think that there
• 25:16
  was some type of collaboration or affiliation or something
• 25:20
  between the two brands? Because obviously it's the same
• 25:23
  exact name for the same exact goods.
• 25:25
  OK, so one comment from someone who works in music
• 25:28
  merchandising, apparently under the video was particularly
• 25:32
  telling as well. They wrote quote.
• 25:33
  As someone who works in the music merch industry, when you
• 25:35
  get a cease and desist, you generally take that merch down
• 25:37
  right away until it's resolved. I was a bit surprised to not see
• 25:40
  that happen. Design buyouts are not uncommon,
• 25:43
  but based on the rejection I imagine there could be a paper
• 25:45
  trail with a designer at the merch company or in their
• 25:48
  network of designers being told to make something similar but
• 25:51
  different enough based on her original design which would
• 25:54
  probably be favorable to her. It bums me out to know for
• 25:56
  economic reasons, those slightly different designs are being
• 25:59
  printed on very standard industry blanks that ethically
• 26:02
  contaminated her brand. Not ideal.
• 26:05
  Now there has been a lot of speculation that this is like
• 26:07
  APR stunt to amplify both brands or like both personalities and
• 26:12
  Planet Deep Blue. She has gone on to deny this.
• 26:14
  In one TikTok comment the brand wrote it's not a stunt.
• 26:17
  But thanks. Do you guys remember when Mango
• 26:20
  Tea and Shannon Rose did that PR stunt?
• 26:24
  Like, I know there's been a million more PR stunts, but
• 26:26
  like, for some reason that just came to the forefront of my mind
• 26:30
  as I was reading this. Do you guys remember when they
• 26:32
  did that PR son, where they pretended to have drama on
• 26:34
  YouTube with each other? And then people like realize
• 26:38
  that it was fake? And then they had to come out
• 26:39
  and make a video being like, yeah, this was all fake.
• 26:43
  That I would never show my face on the Internet again.
• 26:46
  That was so embarrassing and so unwell.
• 26:50
  If you guys want to deep dive into that situation, Oh my God,
• 26:53
  I would love to. I would love to bring that to
• 26:57
  you guys. So let me know, OK?
• 26:59
  The last story that I have for you guys today is Lizzo has
• 27:02
  collaborated with the Swift Ologist on the launch of his new
• 27:06
  podcast. So Lizzo is leaning right into
• 27:09
  TikTok for the launch of her latest album Bitch.
• 27:12
  And aside from regular promo, Lizzo sat down with the
• 27:15
  Swiftologist for the debut episode of his new long form
• 27:19
  interview series Protopop. Lizzo has been pretty
• 27:21
  transparent over the past like few months about how her career
• 27:25
  has evolved over the years, not necessarily for the better.
• 27:28
  She has continuously discussed the rise of TikTok and
• 27:31
  streaming, the decline of radio and her labels decreased
• 27:35
  investment in her as a way to explain like why her album is
• 27:38
  essentially flopping. And there is, of course, that
• 27:41
  big lawsuit that happened with her backup dancers where they
• 27:45
  claimed sexual harassment and hostile work environment.
• 27:50
  And while Lizzo has denied these claims, and I don't fully
• 27:53
  remember what happened with this lawsuit, but obviously things
• 27:55
  evolved and changed throughout this lawsuit.
• 27:57
  Regardless, I think like, it was a really big moment for her in
• 28:00
  terms of like her public perception.
• 28:02
  And I don't think she's been able to, like, recover from
• 28:04
  that. So yes, she's very much been,
• 28:06
  like, building in public right now, Like, it's giving founder
• 28:10
  content, OK. It's like grassroots, like
• 28:13
  musician content where you're like, OK, let me feel myself
• 28:16
  like putting up my own posters and like a begging you to stream
• 28:19
  my music and all of that kind of stuff, which we see on TikTok
• 28:22
  all the time. And sometimes it really works.
• 28:23
  But it's not really like working for Lizzo in the way that she
• 28:27
  wants it to. So the album dropped on June
• 28:29
  5th, and many music commentary creators have since taken to the
• 28:32
  platform to talk about how the album has been considered a flop
• 28:36
  by essentially all measures. And Lizzo has not been shying
• 28:39
  away from this. OK, Like, we'll give her that.
• 28:41
  You know, she's been talking very publicly about how it's
• 28:44
  been flopping. And now she has sat down for
• 28:47
  this interview with the Swiftologist.
• 28:49
  How do you describe where you are in your career?
• 28:51
  Like a real answer, not like a PR line.
• 28:53
  I think right now dropping the album, I took it to heart really
• 28:57
  really heavily. So this is the non PR.
• 28:59
  I hurt my own feelings and I was really stressed and I was really
• 29:03
  sad for a few days because I was just was like, wait a minute,
• 29:08
  this, this is like some of my best stuff.
• 29:10
  I had to come to terms with the fact that not only is the music
• 29:14
  industry different in the last three years and we need to talk
• 29:17
  about that. We need to talk about the radio
• 29:18
  aspect that I got my chewed out for, but it's, it's happening
• 29:21
  and it's true. But also my relationship and my
• 29:24
  connection musically with the world is different.
• 29:27
  And I think I had to kind of mourn that I had all of these
• 29:32
  high hopes I think for what we would do the first week and it
• 29:37
  didn't match. I was so excited because I meet,
• 29:40
  I met my pre save goal and I met all of that.
• 29:42
  And then it dropped and I was like, oh, OK, this isn't what I
• 29:46
  kind of thought it would be. I didn't think it would be
• 29:48
  crazy, but I also didn't think it would be this.
• 29:51
  And I think that there was like 24 hours of my life where I
• 29:55
  based my success and my worth on a number.
• 29:59
  OK. So I wanted to touch on the
• 30:01
  reaction to this collaboration because it hasn't been entirely
• 30:04
  favorable. The swiftologist, as we know, is
• 30:07
  a very polarizing figure. He tends to attract criticism
• 30:11
  regardless, but much of the criticism is actually around
• 30:13
  what Lizza was saying. People are saying that she feels
• 30:16
  really out of touch and like reluctant to take accountability
• 30:19
  for how her career has shifted. I don't know if that's like
• 30:22
  entirely valid. I think it's completely fair to
• 30:26
  educate your listenership, your audience on like what is
• 30:29
  happening in the industry. You know, like every industry is
• 30:32
  being impacted right now by tech AI, like so many different
• 30:36
  factors. So I think it's fine for her to
• 30:39
  be like educating us on like here is what it is like behind
• 30:42
  the scenes. Here's how it's changed since I
• 30:43
  last dropped an album like whatever.
• 30:45
  I think that's completely fair, but I also understand from the
• 30:50
  listener's perspective or the audience's perspective where
• 30:53
  it's like, yes, every industry changes though, and you have to
• 30:56
  evolve and adapt to stay relevant and to keep up with it.
• 31:00
  And like you're not always going to be on top, right?
• 31:02
  Like it's, it's really hard to stay on top.
• 31:05
  So there needs to be a little bit of both, right?
• 31:07
  It's like, yes, the industry has changed and what I've done in
• 31:09
  the past is not working and that is out of my control.
• 31:13
  But like what is in my control is XYZ.
• 31:15
  So like some acknowledgement of that I think would have landed a
• 31:19
  lot better. OK so so one of the top comments
• 31:21
  reads. Lizza was attributing her albums
• 31:23
  poor performance to everything except the music itself.
• 31:26
  Across this and other interviews she keeps focusing on awards,
• 31:29
  certifications and record-breaking achievements.
• 31:32
  But this leaves little to no room for the actual listener
• 31:35
  experience, which is ultimately what determines whether an album
• 31:38
  connects at all. Your persona is centered on
• 31:40
  confidence in one's own voice, self, and ability, so it feels
• 31:43
  contradictory to see material accolades treated as a primary
• 31:46
  benchmark of worth and success. I definitely agree with that to
• 31:49
  an extent. And but I also think she
• 31:51
  probably is maybe on interviews is not the time to be processing
• 31:55
  this, but I think she probably is processing the fact that like
• 31:59
  she literally didn't she win album of the year at the Grammys
• 32:02
  at some point. Let me check.
• 32:03
  OK, no, she did not win album of the year, but she has been
• 32:06
  nominated twice. OK, like to go from that to
• 32:11
  being able to barely sell like a few 1000 copies in your first
• 32:16
  week of album sales like that would be the biggest head fuck
• 32:19
  of all time. Like, I also understand why she
• 32:22
  is, you know, hanging on to that past, like to those past
• 32:26
  accolades, because they were the things that she was probably
• 32:29
  working towards, like her entire career, her whole life, right?
• 32:32
  It's like if you can just get to this benchmark, these
• 32:35
  milestones, you've made it and then you don't have to like,
• 32:37
  worry as much anymore as an artist.
• 32:39
  And that obviously is just like not her reality right now.
• 32:44
  And I think that's the truth for like every industry.
• 32:46
  Like I said, every industry is under such turmoil and being so
• 32:49
  disrupted right now. But yeah, and I think the
• 32:52
  decision to sit down with the swiftologist could have been
• 32:54
  really powerful because he commands such an engaged, like
• 32:58
  chronically online Stan audience.
• 33:01
  It could have been really good for her because you could argue
• 33:04
  like Lizzo needs to kind of move away right from like the
• 33:08
  general, like radio listeners. And she needs to develop like a
• 33:11
  really culty stand up. And this swiftologist, for
• 33:15
  better or worse, he understands that beat.
• 33:17
  OK. And I feel like this could have
• 33:19
  been a really powerful for her, but I just don't think it landed
• 33:22
  like that. Anyways, guys, that's it for
• 33:24
  mini scroll today. Thank you so much for listening.
• 33:26
  I love you guys. Please remember to rate review
• 33:28
  and subscribe. It helps us so much.
• 33:30
  It helps us grow. Please Spotify star rate US.
• 33:33
  Annabelle will talk to you guys tomorrow and then I will talk to
• 33:36
  you on Thursday. Bye.
• 33:37
  Centennial World podcast network operates on Gadigal land.
• 33:40
  We would like to acknowledge the Gadigal of the Eora Nation, the
• 33:43
  traditional custodians of this land, and pay our respects to
• 33:47
  elders both past and present.