Latest / NO FILTER / OnlyFans model found dead in bathtub_ Woman allegedly stabs boyfriend to death(MP3_160K)

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OnlyFans model found dead in bathtub_ Woman allegedly stabs boyfriend to death(MP3_160K) · NO FILTER

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: A word of warning. This podcast explores graphic and disturbing
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: stories and includes some strong language. It therefore may not
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: be suitable for our young listeners or other folks who
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: may find it disturbing. Hello and welcome to True Crime News,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: the podcast covering high profile and under the radar cases
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: from across the country. Every week. I'm your host, Ana Garcia.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Our cases This week, what is going on with the
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: women on Only Fans. One has just been found dead
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: in a bathtub. Police suspect foul play and she was
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: last seen alive with a famous rapper. And another OnlyFans
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: model has been sitting in jail for three years awaiting
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: her day in court. She is accused of killing her boyfriend.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: We are recording this on Friday, November seventh of twenty
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: twenty five. Our guest today is Rachel Fassay, an attorney
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: based in Los Angeles, a legal analyst, and a dear
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: friend of the show. Rachel, how are you welcome back?
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me. All is well, It's
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: great to see you.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Excellent, excellent. I always love your take on things because
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: you practice so many different levels of law, and you've
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: had some of the most interesting clients I've ever heard
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: of that. You always bring this incredible perspective. So I'm
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: just so happy you're here for these two cases.
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: They're certainly interesting, similar yet very different, exactly exactly.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: So we're discussing these two cases because of the connection
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: to only fans. Both women were models, one is dead
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: and one is in jail. So first we're going to
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: discuss an influencer who was found dead in a hotel
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  Speaker 1: bathtub in Kowala, Lampur, Malaysia. Authorities have launched a murder
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: investigation into the death of a popular Taiwanese influencer, thirty
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: one year old Iris shay Now. Her body was found
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: in a bathtub in a hotel. Taiwan News Plus reports
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: that police in Malaysia say that a Malaysian rapper with
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: the name of name Wi was the last person to
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: see her alive. He was reportedly staying or in that
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: hotel room with Iris. Name We whose real name is
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: wimng Che is forty two and he was arrested on
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: drug charges right after Iris's death. Now here's the thing
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: about this case. It's very perplexing. We're dealing with a
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: jurisdiction that we do not understand, these are not our laws.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: They have their own own laws here. The initial arrest
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: of the rapper, Rachel, was allegedly for drug charges. Now
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: in Malaysia, a drug charge can lead to the death sentence.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: This is a very conservative country. So then he is released,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: and then he is he turns himself back in and
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: is currently, as my understand is still in the custody
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: of the Malaysian authorities, but he hasn't been charged with
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: the murder. So what do you think what happens when
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: someone remands himself is in custody but isn't charged with
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: a murder, Like they're just holding on to him.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: It's hard to say what they're doing in Malaysia and
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: what turning yourself in looks like?
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: There?
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: What does turning yourself in look like? And I think
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: he is allegedly cooperating with this investigation. He believes the
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: truth will come out. The initial thought on her death
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: related to nothing nefarious, and now it's turned around into
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: this investigation. So it's going to be a bit secretive
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: what is going on. I think we're not going to
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: know all the ins and outs of the processes that
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: are happening in Malaysia. But yes, I think he can
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: expect some very serious questioning and I don't think a
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: remand there is probably particularly pleasant for him. But again,
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: he is a star there as well. But he does
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: have other issues that has related to his rap there,
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: so I'm not sure how the government there is particularly
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: viewing him, particularly as it relates to all of the
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: issues just in his public image. And then again this
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: very serious drug charge, because they take drug charges so
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: seriously over there.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Exactly, and he has denied, he has absolutely denied having
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: drugs using drugs. The authorities alleged he had drugs in
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: his system. They allege that they found something in the
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: hotel room. And again I cannot stress this enough. Drug
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: charges in Malaysia are so serious that you could lose
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: your life, You could be put to death if you
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: are found guilty of certain drug charges. So I now
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: add the possibility of at least being a central figure
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: in a investigation. This is not looking very good for
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: the rapper, very complicated case. Now. Iris's real name is
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: shay Yushin and she was extremely popular in Asia with
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: more than two million followers on social media, not nearly
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: as popular as name. We I mean, this rapper is
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: off the charts there. And you also have to understand
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: she had her very adult content on only fans. Apparently
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: her Instagram account a few times had to be restricted
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: shut down because I guess she was crossing the line
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: in certain jurisdictions. Maybe not so much here in the US,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: but in certain conservative countries. Perhaps her only Fans subscription
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: was about forty dollars a month, that's according to the
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: Daily Mail. Now, before becoming an influencer, she was in
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: nursing school, and then she became a content creator and
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: a lot of her followers called her the nurse goddess. Okay,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: kind of keep now name we this is very important.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: So he has a bad boy reputation that compliments the
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: rapper lifestyle, obviously singing about topics which are taboo in
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Malaysia and some other Asian countries, especially upsetting the Chinese government.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: So he would rap about obscenity, religion, about Chinese censorship.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: He's actually banned according to the BBC. He's banned in China,
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: highly popular in Taiwan. I don't know if he's still
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: popular or if he's banned in Hong Kong. One of
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: his music videos and I think you were alluding to
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: this Rachel called oh my God was recorded in places
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: of worship and that really upset people. So he's certainly
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, he was even charged with violating I guess
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of censorship law. I don't even know how
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: to describe it for some of his videos. So he
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: certainly pushes the envelope in a conservative.
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: Country, absolutely, And while those things would likely be acceptable here,
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: I think there it's really tarnished his image. So we
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: need to understand how the government is viewing him. Are
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: they being particularly hard on him because of his content?
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: Is he hated in circles like that? Are they trying
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: to censor him? I mean, Malaysia is a fairly Muslim
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: country in a lot of ways, and that that there's
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: pretty strict boundaries as to where you can go relating
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: to religion. It's it's it's a conservative country and very
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: much and he's and he's pushing the envelope. Now doesn't
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: mean that he's a murderer, absolutely not.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: In fact, it may be just that he would.
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: He's raising awareness over there, but it's hard to say.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: Which way that cuts because fame.
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: Generally does help someone in these investigations sometimes there's a
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: little wiggle room when you're famous and have wealth, but
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: it also may be striking against him here.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we cannot stress enough how things operate in Malaysia
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: because their legal system is a dual track system, so
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: they have their civil court system and then they also
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: follow the jurisdictions of Sharia law and for Muslims in
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: that country, specific matters of marriage, divorce, inheritance, those kinds
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: of things, they're handled by the Sharia courts. So again,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: and here's another example, Judaism is not recognized in Malaysia.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: If you have an Israeli passport, you have to have
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: permission to be in the country. It's a very strict
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: conservative country. And the reason I'm saying that is because
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: you have a rapper pushing the envelope and you know,
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: an adult only fans, content creator, and this is where
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: they choose to be. It's like this is this maybe
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: is not the best place for you, right.
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: I agree, because I also wonder how much they will
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: want to avenge her death or do they want to
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: There's a lot going on we will absolutely not know
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: as it relates to this investigation. He has made a
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: statement that the truth will come out where those kinds
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: of things, toxicology, all of that is is undetermined at
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: this point, and he does appear to be asserting his
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: innocence pretty strongly.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such an interesting point that I had not considered.
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  Speaker 1: Is it possible that the victim here may not get
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: the kind of respect and treatment and perhaps termination to
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: get justice for her because of the rules of that country?
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: Right, So under these types of laws and a lot
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: of countries, women are not treated equal to men. Does
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: that extend to the criminal courts? I mean, I've taken
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: multiple classes on this kind of thing through law school.
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: It is interesting international law and how divorces are handled,
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: how custody is handled, how adultery is handled in specific countries.
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: Does that extend to someone that they may not respect
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: as it relates to her premarital activities or what she
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: does online and her potential murder or you know, general
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: her death. So again, I think a lot of how
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: they treat this investigation relates to how they see him.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, this is going to be very fascinating and
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: it's developing. We're recording this on Friday, so we want
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: you to know that, you know, he's expected to be
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: held for a few days, but a lot could change
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: in a few days. So Iris arrived in Kuala Lumpur
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  Speaker 1: on October twentieth for what was supposed to be a
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: four day trip, and she was meeting up with the
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: rapper because he was going to direct some video with
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: her in it. So we don't know if it was
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: a music video or what, but supposedly that's why they
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: were meeting. Authorities discovered iris death dead two days later,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: on October twenty second, at around one forty pm local time. Now,
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: no cause of death has been shared yet, other than
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: initially it was ruled a death and then after a
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: few days, the authorities changed it to a murder investigation.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: And they say they did that because they uncovered new information,
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: but they haven't shared what that is, but clearly enough
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: to change the designation of this investigation to a murder investigation,
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: which presumably is quite serious there if even drug possession
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: is very serious. So CNA News reports that name we
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: found her in the bathtub, unresponsive and tried to give
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: her CPR. The news outlet claims that he called for
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: an ambulance, and he insists that the ambulance took an
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: hour to get there. So he's placing the blame on
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: her ultimate death on the long response time. Now, on
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: the same day that Iris's body was found, name We
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: was arrested on the drug related charge we were talking about.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Police say that they discovered pills believed to be ecstasy
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: in his possession while in custody. He was then tested.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: The authorities say that he tested possitive positive for methan, fetamine, ketamine,
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: and THHC. He denies it. He put out a statement
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: on social media he denies using having drugs, and that's
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: a separate investigation. So then name We was detained by
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: authorities for two days, then he's released, and then following
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: his release from jail, the rapper then explained from his
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: perspective what he happened, what he believes happened. So he says,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: you know, we waited for an hour and no one came,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: and he says, you know, at most I was drinking,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: denies the drug charges, and then also says he feels
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: terrible about Iris's passing. So what do you make of that.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: Something so simple as a toxicology report is in dispute
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: in this case? And I think this is what the
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: evidence is going to look like to us as it
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: comes out that the authorities are saying one thing and
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: it's maybe possible that it's something else. So a toxicology
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: report we would want to see. Okay, here's the actual
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: results in a core in the United States. You would
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: be able to tie that toxicology report to that person
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: chain of custody. This is how it happened. This is
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: the blood sample I use. This is the methodology that
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: I got the report.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: These are the.
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: Exact amounts of the drugs that are in this person system.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: I don't know that we will ever get that through
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: this system. It might be that he had some of
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: these substances in his system, how much, when who did
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: the report, how did they analyze it, When did they
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: take the blood. There's a lot of things that we
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: may never know, but right now we know there is
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: even a dispute as to the basic facts of whether
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: he did drugs at some point such that they were
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: in his system, and that may or may not even
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: be related at all to the murder investigation.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: It might not be, but it's so crucial. Again, I
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: can't stress this enough. If you could be given the
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: death penalty for possession of drugs, you're going to do
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: everything your power to deny that you had the drugs.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: I mean absolutely, We're not talking about a slap on
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: the wrist here.
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: It is going to be difficult for him just from
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: that starting position to work his way out of a
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: murder investigation.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: And again we do not know the cause of death. Yet,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: we do not know the cause of death. Police have
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: been interviewing hotel staff of course, also reviewing security footage
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: as part of the investigation. As we said, you know name,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: we turned himself in, then he gets released, and then
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: he comes back and he turns himself in again. So
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: I know that's really confusing, and we can't really shed
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: more light on it because not everything here is transparent.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: It's believed he's going to be held for about six days.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: That's what his lawyer is saying. Now Iris's body has
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: been released back to her family. We're still waiting on
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: the autopsy and toxicology reports for her, and of course
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: the death investigation continues. So this is where we are
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: on that case. We have an international influencer dead and
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: the person that police are looking at right now is
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: also an international star.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: Wow, so much there, and I think we have to
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: just if I may go on a tangent for a moment,
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: imagine there were drugs in her system that they're tracing
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: back to him.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: I wonder under their law.
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: If she died from that ingestion, if that leads back
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: to a drug charge leading to a murder charge, if
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: he gave her the drugs, which are cases that can
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: be made in multiple instances. But I wonder how they
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: tie that in if that is what happened in this case.
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: They initially thought she had a heart attack and had
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: gone down that or sudden death and had gone down
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: that path. But it just doesn't make a lot of
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: sense for this healthy woman to.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: Have had that. So so much to.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: Be determined here, and I still think we're not going
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: to get all of the answers that we would want
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: had this been given in a more perhaps a more
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: transparent environment that we were familiar with.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: So now I want you to look at this next
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: case everyone, because it also involves an only fans model,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: but the roles are completely reversed here. She is not
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: considered the victim by authorities. She is considered the alleged
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: killer here, although she says she's a victim of domestic violence.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: This is a case that's been going on for three years,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: and so far we are nowhere near getting to trial,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: although we're told maybe maybe the beginning of the year. Now.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: In this case, the OnlyFans model out of Miami is
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: accused of stabbing to death her boyfriend, and we think
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: maybe after the first of the year, it's possible it'll
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: go to trial. She's got two high powered attorneys whom
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: I've interviewed before, and they are really they're some of
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: the best attorneys in this country, and they have dropped
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: a bombshell a bombshell to try and get the case
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: dismissed against her. That hasn't quite happened yet, but they're
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: alleging that the police directed someone who was first on
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: the scene to delete video and photos that that person recorded.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: So in essence, you're saying the police told someone to
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: delete evidence. Is that not tampering with evidence here?
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: So I think that is tampering with evidence. The police would.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: Say it's after the fact, it wasn't actually evidence, etc.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: But I think these lawyers absolutely know what they're doing.
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: When you're doing a case like this, you start with
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: procedure and processes without even looking at so much of
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: the facts of the case, procedure and processes.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: Was this done right? Can we get out here?
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: And if you want to think back to the Alec
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: Baldwin case and how he eventually got out of the case,
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: you're back to procedure and processes, and that is what is.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: The mark of a good lawyer.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: They need to start at the very beginning, jurisdiction, procedure, processes,
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: police abuse, and how is the evidence obtained? You get
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: through all of that.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Now you got to go to the facts.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: The facts are not always that helpful for you.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: No, and not in this case in particular. So we
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: are talking here about the trial, the soon to be
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: trial of OnlyFans model Courtney Clenny. Now she her side
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: and the prosecutor's side recently said to a judge, we
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: each need time to review more evidence. But meanwhile she's
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: been denied bond each time, and as part of the
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: move to ask for bond again is like this bombshell
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: of police directed someone to delete evidence, to destroy evidence.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: But the prosecutors are still saying, we think she's still
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: a flight risk and we're not giving her any bail yet.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: It's possible, But the fact is she has been held
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: for three years for three years. Okay, Courtney, who is
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: twenty nine, She stands accused of fatally stabbing her boyfriend,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Christian Obenselli, who was twenty seven years old and at
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: the time of her arrest, Courtney was an OnlyFans model
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: and a content creator with more than two million followers online.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: She went by the alias of Courtney Taylor, and Christian
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: worked in cryptocurrency. The two of them shared a bayfront
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: Miami condo, which was part of a lavish life that
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Courtney often posted about, much of it, including Christian as well,
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: and prosecutors say she did very well on Only Fans.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: She made more than a million dollars a year and
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: her best dear, she made one point eight million.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Dollars, a lot of money.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: That is a lot of money as a content creator,
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: and a lot of money for a twenty nine year old.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah. Now, despite the glossy appearances on social media,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: their two year relationship had a lot of serious problems.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Things had apparently become so bad between the two of
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: them that Christian had started to surreptitiously report Courtney's abusive out.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Police have been called to wherever these two were living
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: because they moved into this particular condo three months before
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: Christian's murder, and you know, so there's a documented history
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: of violence between the two of them and one on
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: the other. I do not believe that that is in
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: dispute here, but the question is, and we're going to
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: get into the details of what she said and what
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: happened in this relationship. She's claiming self defense here. Her
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: attorneys are making it clear that she's the victim. Her
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: parents have said, you know, if he didn't turn up dead,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: then maybe she would have turned up dead, meaning someone
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: was going to seriously get hurt in this relationship, which
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: is really frightening.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: It's a frightening relationship.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: And when you review the record, it's so tumultuous, it's
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: really terrifying.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: We'll talk about the recorded.
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: Messages, but I think the method of death, which we
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: will get into, is fascinating. And how she has claimed
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: that she killed him in self defense. That's the part
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: that is not lining up at all.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Right. She's saying that she threw a knife at him
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: from ten feet away and it just landed and sliced
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: a artery in his chest.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: Feels really unlikely unless you've spent a lot of time
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: in the circus, and it's throwing knife throwing, and it
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: is verifiably something that can be determined distant the angle
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: of the knife, how it went, in general force that
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: was used. That's all stuff that is subject to a
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: forensic evaluation. And I think this part is very hard
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: for her to sell.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, her attorneys. I watched an interview with them
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: and have read several articles where they're quoted. They say
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: they have found their own forensic experts and they can
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: replicate what she did allegedly did, and that they can
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: absolutely show that with no experience, from ten feet away,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: you can throw a knife and have land in the
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: same position at the same angle. And they're going to
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: prove that in court. And if they can, Rachel, and
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: if they can, and what are the jurors going to
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: make of this?
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: Maybe people will go home and try it against a
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: wall with a dummy. I don't know. I think it's
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: a hard sell. I think they've got some high paid
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: experts that have made statements that it's plausible, it's possible,
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: it could happen, it could happen one in you know,
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: a thousand times, and maybe this is that case. I
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: still find that a hard cell. What I just think
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: of myself throwing a knife and hitting someone in the
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: exact spot that you would immediately cut an artery leading
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: to death with the knife even staying you know, at
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: an angle where it hits somebody. When you think of
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: ten feet away, that is a substantial distance. You know,
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: it's not two feet, which still seems pretty difficult. But
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: if you're really measuring it out, ten feet is There's
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: going to be demonstrations in the courtroom with these dueling experts,
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: and the jury's got to really think about the plausibility
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: of this happening.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a complicated one, and the case is made
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: that much more difficult, and certainly a lot less empathy
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: for Courtney here, who claims that she was a victim
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: of domestic violence. I believe that this relationship was filled
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: with horrible violence on both parts, on both parts, just
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: based on what authorities have released, you know. So remember
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: how I said that Christian started videotaping her and her outbursts,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: and there's about a dozen of these recordings, and they're horrific.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: She's calling him the N word. For those of you
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: who are listening and not watching and can't see photos
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: of them. Courtney's white and Christian is black, so she's
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: using horrible racial slurs against him. She's slapping him, she's
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: hitting him. I mean, she's really freaking out now. Her
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: defense is saying, what you don't see in these videos,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: and they don't want these videos to be used at trial,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: is that he was gaslighting her. That is what they're saying.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: You didn't see what led up to this. Okay, let's
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: say let's say he said and did something horrible. Okay,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: so now what do you have an equal and opposite reaction?
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: I don't. I think it's hard. How does she defend
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: against that?
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: I think this is a really hard case. And I'm
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: going to go back to processes and procedures, and there
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: may have been a mistake in the investigation, there may
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: have been evidence tampering. That is where the attorneys are
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: trying to live before they take these facts to a jury.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, can you imagine any instance in which the
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: judge is going to rule that these videos are not
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: important to this case. I can't see them being excluded.
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: I mean they're going to say it's more prejudicial than probative,
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: but that's just not the case because the stakes.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: Are so high.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: This is a murder charge, and I think it shows
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: their relationship, and the parents are gonna come up and
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: they're gonna they're gonna have witnesses testifying to his abuse
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: of her. Uh, he'll have witnesses or you know, the
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: prosecution will have witnesses testifying relating to her abuse.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: And by all means this is a horrible relationship.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: You know, this is just a tumultuous and a sad
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: relationship with the tragic ending. But I don't see where
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: these don't come in. They're arguing that it's her right
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: to privacy. She never consented to these videos in her
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: own home. It's hard to you know, I don't know.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: We don't know everything they say. Does it say turn
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: off that you know, video camera. I don't consent. I mean,
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: we don't know what's on all of the videos. And
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: each state has particular laws as it relates to surreptitious recordings.
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: So maybe there is some argument that this was a
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: surreptitious recording. I think there are, you know, phone recordings
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: as well, so there's a chance that maybe some of
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: them will be excluded. But I don't see necessarily how
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: you get them all out, because the jury really wants
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: to see this relationship, and the prosecution is there on
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: behalf of the victim to show what happened, and these
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: show perhaps a progression of their relationship and what self
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: defense even.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Could look like.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: In fact, before the killing, there is a video that's
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: been released of the two of them in an elevator
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: in their condo building and she gets in, he gets in,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: and she's like, it's got an elevator. You know that
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: panel on the elevator where you push the buttons, but
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: this doesn't really have button. It's all you know, virtual,
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: like a computer screen, and she's banging on it and
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: then she hits him, and then she pulls his hair,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: and then she lunges at him again, and he pushes
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: her away, and this is going on in the elevator.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't I see her in this video.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Just based on the body language, I don't know. You
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: may think differently, it does seem like she because we
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: don't know what's being said, so he may be saying
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: something to start this, but she appears to be the aggressor,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: meaning she keeps hitting him even when he pushes her
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: away and is trying to get her to stop. She
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: keeps coming toward him, but I don't know what he's
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: saying to her. I mean, he could be pushing her
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: away and saying horrific things. I just don't know. So
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: things have gotten so bad in this building that the
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: neighbors have been complaining about their fighting, and the management
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: company says they were working towards a victing these two.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: So what does that tell you again about this relationship.
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: It's tumultuous, it's loud, it's somewhat public. All of those
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: witnesses are coming in.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: They have this video.
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: There is some other audio regarding hers hitting him and
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: like I'm gonna get rid of the obscenities. But it's
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: something like take it like a man, I'm coming after you.
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: And as she's hitting him and he doesn't want to
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: be hit, but she is again appearing to be the
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: aggressor there. So I think there's just so much going on,
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: and there is, you know, likely the size differential between
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: the two of them. However, I think that there are
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: strong arguments she is the aggressor in some of these arguments,
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: and it's hard to show self defense in that in
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: that moment, unless with the story that I threw a
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: knife at him from ten feet away.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And we're going to get to that day now
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: and what was recorded on on body camp. The final
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: fight was on April third of twenty twenty two, and
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: according to authorities, Christian returned home to the couple's apartment
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: around four thirty two. Courtney told police that they had
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: broken up a week before, they were trying to reconcile
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: and then they got into an argument and when the
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: police said, what were you arguing about? She couldn't answer it.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: She just could not answer, which might be kind of
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: how they argue. It could like one thing leads to
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: another and before you don't even know what you're arguing about.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: At four point fifty seven that evening, Courtney calls nine
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: to one one to report that Christian has been stabbed,
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: and authority say that Christian can be heard in the
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: background of the nine to one one call repeatedly saying
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: he was dying, that he couldn't feel his arm, and
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: he also reportedly said I'm so sorry baby to Courtney. Now,
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: what does that mean? And does that not maybe help Courtney?
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: That could help her for sure. I mean, if he's
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: apologizing to her, the defense will say he's apologizing to
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: her for coming at her and for causing her harm
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: and making her do this. And you know, there's a
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: million reasons he could be saying, I'm so sorry, baby,
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: But that is an interesting thing to say when you
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: have just been murdered or the death blow has just
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: been dealt.
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: So yes, that is helpful.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: And these two likely thrived off of this energy in
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: the relationship, so it could be a general apology and
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: things just got far too elevated.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: And it does lend credibility to the allegations that he
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: was the abusive one, that he was the aggressor I'm
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: sorry baby you We don't know. He could be apologizing
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: for any number of things, especially if he thinks so
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: that his life is literally slipping and this is his
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: last chance to say anything. Or he might be apologizing
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: for what may have triggered this, and maybe because she
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: does then make allegations to the police. Let's get right
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: to it. The authorities arrive at this scene, and it's gruesome.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: There is blood everywhere, and the police body cam captures
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: all of this. Now, elevator door opens and the dog
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: is barking like crazy. She's screaming she's on top of
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: the body. The police are asking her to get the
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: dog away so they can get to her, and they
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: want her to step away from the body. She won't
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: step away from the body. The police are getting extremely forceful.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: It's like, you've got to step away from the body.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: She's wearing like a bra and underpants and she's covered
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: in blood. I mean, this thing is a mess. This
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: thing is a mess, and hanging in the balance is
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: a man's life. He gets transported to the hospital and
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: he ultimately dies. Now here's the rest of the body camp.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: So police are saying, like, what happened? You know, you
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: got to start somewhere, and the Courtney says that he
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: pushed her against the wall, that he pinned her on
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: the floor, that he was choking her, and she says
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: she got away from him, and then she calls her mother.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: So if someone is attacking me, I don't think I
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: call my mother. I think I call nine one one.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: Or I get out, or I get out.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: But she mean I have been able to get out.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: If you look at the videos, she's the way is.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: Police are coming in and he's on it's just they
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: can't even get through and pass by the dog. It's
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: like this weird, narrow area. So maybe she couldn't. I mean,
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: maybe she couldn't. So Okay, now this part is extremely hazy.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: They're trying to figure out how it went from Okay,
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: he allegedly did all of this, You call your mother.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Then how does the knife end up in him? And
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: she can't exactly describe how he came at her and
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: where she was in relation to it, but she said
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: she felt threatened and he was coming toward her and
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: that she threw the knife at him and then it
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: lands in his chest from ten feet away. Yeah, and
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: now here's the other thing. So she gets taken to headquarters.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: You know, she's handcuffed, she the interrogation tapes. She's she's
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: like sprawled on the table. It's there's a lot going on.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: You know, she's obviously under a great deal of stress.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: She is distressed, covered in blood. It's you know, blanket
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: covering her. It's horrible. Miami Herald says that she's ultimately
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: hospitalized for psychiatric evaluation while they try and figure out
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: what happened here. Now, police believe that Christian had likely
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: been bleeding for a longer period of time than it
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: took her to call. They think that maybe there was
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: a delay in there. The implication is that she didn't
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: react quickly enough. Forensics are going to have to be
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: able to prove that because I don't know how else.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: You know, just saying it doesn't necessarily make it, so,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: I don't know. She told police repeatedly that she was
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: defending herself, and she uses those terms self defense, self defense.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: This is another murky point. So once she can't you know,
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: usually when something happens, you can describe it in great detail. Right,
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: So there's the murkiness of how exactly he came at
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: her from where that's not clear. Here's the next part. Okay,
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: I've it's my understanding that the knife was not in
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: him when the authorities arrived. That is my understanding, and
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: of course we don't have all of the facts. But
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: if that's true, does that not make you believe that
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: it's more of a stabbing. I'm holding a knife, I
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: drop the knife when I realize, oh, oh my gosh,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: you know, like he's bleeding out. Or is it possible
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: that she threw the knife and then pulled it out.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: That is not an easy thing to do.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: It's not an easy thing to do.
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: I mean, what is possible is she didn't actually need
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: to kill him, right, So in that moment, she meant
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: to kill him, or she meant to maim him, or
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: she meant to do what she did and then felt
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: horrible about it and thought, Okay, if I take the
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: knife out, it'll stop. I don't think that's actually how
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: it works, because it causes more bleeding.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: But perhaps that was.
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: A measure to make it better instead of some sort
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: of cover up or stopping. I think that is a
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: point she may be able to explain away. But again,
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: it does lead to the conclusion that she's waiting a
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: moment to make that phone call.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: M H yeah, I think you know. The point here
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: being that she's been charged with second degree murder, that
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: the belief by prosecutors and police is that she didn't
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: set out to kill him that day. Right, This was
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: a horrible, horrible situation, a violent relationship, a violent argument,
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: and this is how it ended. That doesn't mean that
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: there aren't consequences here. And then we also have to
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: figure out how the jury is going to view her
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: as a victim of domestic violence. And in Florida, I've
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: seen juries go both ways.
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: I mean, the second degree murder is a smart charge
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: because it also encompasses her ten feet away theory, in
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: that it is so reckless to throw a knife as
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: to be so dangerous it leads to a murder charge.
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: So she could say I was just throwing a knife
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: into the air to make him stop. I wasn't necessarily
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: trying to hit him. But the charge still stands if
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: they find that level of recklessness in the tossing of
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: a deadly weapon that it does kill him.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: So they're a little bit protecting themselves in that way.
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: And of course, I don't think you're going to have
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: not You're going to have not an argument that this
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: couple was acting in the heat of passion, right, regardless
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: of self defense and everything else. I mean, I think
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: the facts will show, if they're trying to reconcile the relationship, etc.
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: She didn't lure him there to kill him most likely.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems pretty consistent here. And she does tell
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: police to verify everything with her mother, that her mother
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: can verify what was going on, So presumably obviously they
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: can get phone records and they can talk to the mom,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: who is to a degree of witness in real time
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: about what she's hearing, you know absolutely, And if you
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: have a situation where there is already recorded documented violence
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: between the two of them, I think that the mother's
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: words will likely ring true. It just and you know,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: there are some media reports that she Courtney had been
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: had previously allegedly stabbed her boyfriend in the leg during
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: an earlier violent fight. I would think that would be
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: a big deal.
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: I think it would show it could support her and
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: not support her in the same way. If the jury
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: is to believe this ten feet away toss theory, she
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: a toss of the knife or a kind of a
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: non deadly threatened threatening act by a knife might be
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: how she gets out of it.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: So a stabbing in the leg is not likely meant
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: to kill.
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: It's violent, we don't know why, you know what the
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: circumstances are necessarily relating to the act defense or otherwise.
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: And is this just her way of maiming him, either
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: to make him stop or as an aggressor. And so
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: this is where the recklessness comes in again. If you
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: are to believe this was not an intentional act to kill.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: Christian's death was ultimately ruled to be caused by a
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: knife wound punctured an artery on the right side of
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: his chest and he bled out. So this is just
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: like adds more drama to this tragedy that the wound
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: reportedly is just inches above a tattoo on his chest
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: of Courtney's name that was written in cursive, right, isn't
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: that something? It's like, ooh, that's chilling. Just can can
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: you imagine when they show that photo? No?
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: Oh, no, And I think that actually might hurt her
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: quite a bit as her defense was she stabbing it intentionally?
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. But then then I
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: could also look at it and say, oh, my god,
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: he really loved her. He had Courtney across his heart
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: and then he stabbed in the heart by her allegedly.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: I'm so sorry.
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: I mean, this couple had something we may not be how.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: Just a lot going on in this case, A lot
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: going on in this case. Now she's not arrested immediately
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: because police are doing their investigation and they have to
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: figure out what happened here. So you know, after the
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: death in June, she buys a one point three million
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: dollar house in Texas near her parents' home with all
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: the money that she's made so four months after Christian dies.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: On August tenth, Courtney is charged with second murder. She's
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: arrested in Hawaii. She was there at a rehab facility
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: recovering from substance abuse and PTSD, and she's been behind
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: bars ever since. Do you think that that is a
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: mitigating factor, that she was seeking help at the time
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: that she was arrested.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: I think so. I mean, it shouldn't be.
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: It's not something the jury is necessarily supposed to consider.
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: But will that come in because it makes you think
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: that her judgment was cloudy perhaps at the time all
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: of the things, and then she went to go improve
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: herself and she was seeking help for the death of
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: her boyfriend.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: She was so traumatized.
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: I might say the prosecution will try to keep that
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: out in front of the jury. They may have a
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: decent chance of doing so. But yes, I think that
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: helps her case.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, All right, now, her defense is claimed repeatedly,
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: and remember it started with Courtney on the cam immediately
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: to police. I did this in self defense. I did
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: this in self defense. And so her attorneys are still
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: saying that she did not mean to kill him, and
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: I think she probably didn't think that he would die, right,
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: I think that that's possible, that that was not the intent.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: But you know, if either you throw or you stab
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: with a knife, there's a possibility you could seriously interest
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: someone or kill them, that's right.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: So that's what second degree murder looks like a lot
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: of the time.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: So I mean, the jury's got there were cut out
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: for them because we haven't even gotten to all the
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: other stuff here that goes to the processes and procedures
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: that you so richly discussed. Okay, so but before we
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: get there, I just want to get to one more
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: thing about the knife, that's all, and then we'll be
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: done with this part. So Courtney claimed that she did
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: just throw it. Right now, investigators say the Christian's wound
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: was slightly downward and far too deep at more than
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: eight centimeters into his chests to have been caused by
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: a knife that was thrown. Again, the forensics on both
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: sides are going to have to debate that one. I
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: got no idea. I think it's entirely plausible that you
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: throw a knife and you have a one in a
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: million chants it just hits where it shouldn't hit. You know,
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: it's entirely possible.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go it possible, but unlikely.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: Possible. So now Courtney's defense has said, look, Christian was
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: abusive both emotionally and physically, and they alleged that the
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: victim engaged in various gas lighting behaviors, claiming that he
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: would often provoke her until he got the achieved result
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: where she was just like losing it. And then they
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: get into a massive argument, and they also say, you know,
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: he recorded They say he recorded the videos not to
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: protect himself, but that he was using it allegedly to
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: threaten her, to blackmail her, that he was going to
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: release this video either her friends or family. I mean,
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: one would think that would really be something if he
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: released that to her fans or publicly, right, That's right.
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: So these are people that you know, she's somebody that
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: made her money in the public image, and so these
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: videos could be incredibly damaging to her. And absolutely, that's
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: a genuine threat that I think she would.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: See, hm. Absolutely, And so obviously they're going to have
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: to prove that. They're going to have to have someone
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: who can corroborate that. Where is this coming from? Is
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: she the only one saying that it's possible, but it
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: would certainly be helpful if there's somebody else who could
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: coroborate such an allegation. So as we've said that the
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: case has been delayed numerous times because of filings and
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: well some may say mishaps and some would say some
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: really big problems. Let's get to the big problems here
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: because I think they're important. Because this goes back to
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: Karen Reid. You know, you had that dirty state trooper
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: who clearly had it out for her, and now as
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: a result, you know, and she was found not guilty twice,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: you know, acquitted twice, I should say, in the murder
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: of her then boyfriend, a police officer. But that dirty cop,
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: that dirty cop. Now authorities are going back to several
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: cases because of all the text messages that they have
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: read and how horrible he was and the things he
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: said which could show that he was prejudice in these cases,
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's never ending. So in that case, they
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: were able to show that they alleged a conspiracy, that
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: she wasn't treated fairly, the text messages didn't lie, and
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: he ultimately lost his job after the first trial.
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: So that's why I think what I'm about to say
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: is important, why it's important. So in March of twenty
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: twenty five, the Miami Assistant State Attorney Khalil Quinnin was
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: forced to step away from the case after a judge's
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: ruling the prosecutors had violated attorney client privilege and I'm
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: going to need you to help me sort this out
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: and what it means, because prosecutors had read texts and
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: emails that were exchanged between Courtney's parents and their attorneys,
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: which would be protected.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: So whenever prosecutors are going through emails, text messages, digital
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: data communications, they are required to protect attorney client privileged
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: information and the team of attorneys on the case are
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: not allowed to see those messages. So often they have
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: what is called a taint team, and the tainket team
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: goes through the emails and text messages and communications to
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: make sure that the real team doesn't get to see
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: anything relating to what is between a lawyer and their client.
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: So here the communications were taken from the parents and
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: just read by the prosecutor. They did not form any
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: safeguards for attorney client privileged information. Now, the prosecutor says,
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: I had no idea they had attorneys. Well, that's not
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: really an excuse. They are close to this investigation. Their
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: daughter's been charged and mom is a witness, and so
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: they likely have attorneys, and all cautions need to be
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: taken for that, because once the prosecutor reads the attorney
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: client privileged information in theory, yes, of course he can't
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: use them at trial, but he can't get him out
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: of his brain. So once it's in his brain, he's
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: be like, oh, now I know this, Why don't I
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: go ask that witness they were talking about? And everything
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: that flows from those tainted exposures of those communications should
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: be effectively taken out, but it's difficult to parse through
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: in someone's logical brain what's from one source and what's
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: from another.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: So, yes, that was a.
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: True issue relating to the way the prosecution was handling
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: the case. And as the lawyers do, they brought that
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: up and were seeking to get them disqualified, and.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: They did, and they did, and so damage done. But
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: they're moving forward and they have a new prosecutor. So
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: is that still something that's maybe going to be brought
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: up at trial or that doesn't really matter anymore? Like
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: that's been dealt with.
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: It probably won't come up at trial, but it does
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: form a basis for appeal down the road should she
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: be convicted.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: Uh huh, all right, And when that prosecutor stepped down,
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: Khalil released this statement quote, it is my hope that
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: my withdrawal, which is interesting, I think maybe the judge
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: told you, but okay, right, okay, that my withdrawal will
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: facilitate the resolution of the defendant's meritless motions, correct the record,
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: and allow these proceedings to refocus on what truly matters
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: justice for Christian's Christian open selly, Okay, that is what
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: matters here, m M. But there were a couple of
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: digs in there. Weren't there a couple of digs there?
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, a lot of digs. And definitely mad about that.
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: But there are procedures, and this is a very you know,
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: privilege must be protected almost at all costs to keep
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: this legal system rolling.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: Now, let's get to the bombshell, Okay, because I alluded
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: to this earlier a little bit so in the most
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: recent filing, which was an asking to dismiss the charges
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: and also going toward if that didn't work, let's reduce bond,
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: make it possible for her to get out. Courtney's attorneys
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: claimed that a civilian witness this was one of the
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: first people to respond to the apartment. A person who
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: works for the building responded, saw everything, took pictures in video,
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: and then when that person was interviewed by the police,
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: a police officer told him to delete all of these
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: recordings and photos. Her team believes that this is tampering
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: and destroying evidence, and they're trying to figure out why
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: in the world that an officer would direct someone to
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: do that when most of the time they are always
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: trying to get video and everything from everybody's angle, this
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: makes zero sense to me why they would be told
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: to do this.
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: I think in the moment, if there's any excuse, the
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: officer thought she was interfering with the investigation. I don't
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: know that that holds up in court, but that is
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: the only thing I can think of as an excusable
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: means of doing that.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: I think it's problem.
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's a huge problem. I really do,
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: because again, constantly, investigators are mining every camera that exists,
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: asking for people for video for anything, did you see
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: did you hear? And this falls into you know who knows?
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: And here's to me the most important part of this
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: this person, I believe it was a gentleman. This person
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: took these videos and photos before the police got there. Rachel.
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: I'm going to make an argument here that whether it
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: was two minutes, five minutes, or ten minutes, something in
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: that apartment could have changed, and you would have had
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: evidence prior to police arriving, and then to what police
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: see and capture with their own cameras and body camps,
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: and if there was a discrepancy in there, that would
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: be huge and we'll never.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: Know processes and procedures, and this one might stick.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: Yes, this one really really bothers me, really bothers me.
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: And then the question was brought up to her attorneys.
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: It's like, well, you know, nothing's ever really really gone.
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: And so the answer and listen, more information can come
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: out of trial. I have no idea, but the current
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: answer is that that witness hasn't been identified. That witness
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: then got a new phone since this happened. Hello, it's
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: been three years. Yeah, yeah, and it's entirely possible that
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: that has been lost. I don't know, it is it is.
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: I mean, you can recover a lot, but you can't
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: recover everything. And I have tried and tried and tried,
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: and there are some things that really are lost. So
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: it depends on how your phone saves and things roll over.
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: And if all of that is true, I think they
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: have real motion practice here and police misconduct is it's
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: very real, very real, and evidence tampering and this could.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: Get her out.
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: Wow, really you think so?
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: I think this could get her out if they make
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: an argument that perhaps the police were trying to hide something,
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: that something was there and now it's not and now
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: she can't get a fair trial, and this relates to
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: her defenses.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: They will make hay here.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: Even if let's say this was more of non intentional
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: maybe a young officer. I have no idea. I'm just questioning,
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: what if it was stupidity incompetence, not malicious, Does it matter?
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: It matters a little bit, but it still doesn't change
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: how she could build her defenses if she had that evidence.
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: And so that's the part that we'll be focused on
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: in that case.
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: And another point that her attorneys made about this witness
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: that prosecutors never interviewed this person again for the case.
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: Presumably they were I guess and interviewed by the officer
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: who said get rid of it, delead it, but was
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: never reinterviewed again for this case. That seems a little
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: sloppy to me. Do you just disregard the person who
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: works in the building and is the first to arrive.
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: I kind of think you want to hear what they
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: have to say.
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: I mean, once you dig into so many cases, which
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: again they have funding, they have good lawyers, they are
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: able to turn over every stone, and once you turn
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: over every stone, there are mistakes, intentional or not. There
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: are things that went wrong in the investigation. And every
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: now and then, as a defense attorney defending a client,
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: you hit a big one and you can stay there
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: and the case does not proceed, or it gives them
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: leverage in a plea agreement, like, hey, we're going to
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: get this case thrown out based on this sloppy conduct
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: or intentional conduct and missing evidence. Why don't we go
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: down to manslaughter?
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: I wonder, just putting it out there, is it possible
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: that the prosecution you building this case may or may
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: not if they did know about the police officer telling
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: this witness to delete stuff. If the prosecution went like
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: this and just like said, you know what, we're just
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: going to leave that out of the rest of the investigation.
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: We don't want to talk to them again because if
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: we talk to them, it opens up a Pandora's box,
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: and I'm just going to pretend that just doesn't exist.
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: And that's called a Brady violation, and that's how you
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: get cases dismissed.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: That is prosecutorial misconduct.
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: If you have evidence that can help the other side,
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: you are required to disclose it. You are not allowed
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: to ignore it in the way you just said.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that they did. I was just
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: talking out loud, thinking hmmmm, this isn't gonna help my case,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: and ultimately there's nothing really there. Wow, this is very interesting,
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: and she's got very sharp attorneys, very very sharp attorneys,
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: so no trial data set. Her attorneys seem to think
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: it'll be right after the first of the year. Is
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: their hope. You know, prosecution still says absolutely not to
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: releasing her because she's a flight risk. We are still
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: waiting to hear on that. Interestingly enough, Christian's family has
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Courtney, and Courtney does
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: have some assets.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: They're probably gonna win that different standard not beyond a
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: reasonable doubt more likely than not. Let's see you know,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: we've got a ten foot knife throwing story.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: Let's take it to the jury.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: So we'll be watching this case everyone. We'll let you
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: know when it finally goes to trial. It is time
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: for us comments section. These are the crime cases you
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: all are talking about on social media. And here's our producer,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: Will Updike.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 4: Hey Will, Hey, Anna, how's it going good? How are
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 4: you doing good?
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: Rachel?
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 4: How are you good? To see you?
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: Great to see you?
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 4: All right, So this week we got a case of
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 4: some foot long justice after the sandwich guy was acquitted
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 4: on an assault charge. I'll run down who the sandwich
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 4: guy is if you're unfamiliar. This case comes out of Washington, DC,
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 4: where jurors couldn't stomach prosecutors charges for a man who
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 4: chucked a subway sandwich at the chest of a federal officer.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 4: This incident, which unfolded during sort of the federal crime
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 4: crackdown on our nation's capital as well as some other cities.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 4: This was captured on social media and it quickly became
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 4: kind of like a memeable symbol of resistance or whatever.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 4: But in this highly circulated video, our defendant here thirty
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 4: seven year old Air Force veteran Sean C. Dunn is
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 4: seen approaching Customs and Border Patrol officers who were on
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 4: standboy by outside of a popular nightlife area. D Yeah,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of officers there. There's like clearly some night
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 4: life and stuff going on. He's, you know, coming out
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 4: of a subway. Sean encounters the officers here. He's visibly
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: voicing his consternation. He says, fu you f ing fascists,
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 4: why are you here? I don't want you in my city,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 4: and then he hurls a sandwich at the chest of
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 4: one of the officers, and he's then seen running away
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 4: and all the officers are chasing after him, and like,
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 4: I feel like, I'm sure someone's done it. But you
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 4: could definitely set the Benny Hill music to this and
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 4: have a fun little time with that footage. Authornities. However,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 4: it didn't take this as quite as funny. They arrested Sean,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 4: and then the charges here kind of go for a
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 4: roller coaster, and in the meantime, while this is all
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 4: getting storted out in court, Sean was fired from the
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 4: DOJ where he worked as a paralegal, which you know,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 4: I think if you're seeing. If you work under federal
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 4: employment and you're seeing, you know, throwing a sandwich at
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 4: a federal officer, you might expect some personal repercussions there.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 4: Now, like I said, Sean sort of became an unlikely
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 4: symbol of resistance here, and prosecutors treated it as such. Initially,
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 4: they attempted to charge Sean in federal court on a
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 4: felony charge of assault on a law enforcement officer, but
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 4: a grand jury was not buying that five dollars foot long.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 4: They could not return an indictment on that count.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: Now I want to I want to stop you right there.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: That is so interesting because Rachel, I think you would
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: know so better than anyone else. It's generally very easy
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: to get a grand jury indictment. You don't need a
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: lot to indict.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 4: So what's the saying you can indict a ham sandwich.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: Foot long ham sandwich?
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: What do you think about that? That they couldn't get
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: an indictment.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: They had no case, no case.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 4: Prosecutors ultimately did opt to move forward with this this
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 4: time instead on a charge of a misdemeanor assault, which
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 4: under this ruling here the specific wording on the it
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 4: is it ok? Hey, But it's forcibly assaulting, resisting, opposing, impeding, intimidating,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: or interfering with federal officials or employees who are engaged
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 4: in their official duties. So the little little broader there
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 4: not a felony. They did take this one to trial,
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 4: as I said, so we got a trial on our hands. Now.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 4: A part of the like the big manner of dispute
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 4: here was the intent of this whole thing, the intent
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 4: of this sandwich throw, whether this really qualified like as
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 4: an insult or an intimidation and the victim here. Greg
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 4: lair Moore testified that he mostly, you know, when this
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 4: sort of unfolded. Initially, he tried to just ignore some
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 4: of these comments that were being made by Sean. I'm
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 4: sure it probably wasn't the first time someone approached them,
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 4: especially like I said, this is a nightlife area in DC.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 4: There are certainly some polarizing opinions about you know, federal
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 4: officers being posted there in the first place, and he's
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 4: trying to ignore these comments and everything until he said
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 4: he felt the impact of the sandwich through his bulletproof vest.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 4: In his testimony, he said, the sandwich kind of exploded
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 4: all over my uniform. It smelled of onions and mustard.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: Very shell shocking, sounds like very sounds like a very
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 4: disturbing ordeal. However, this one didn't quite hold up under
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 4: cross examination. Defense attorney here Sabrina Shroth, displayed a photo
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 4: of the sandwich still in its wrapper, lying on the
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 4: ground and ask the agent whether the sandwich had really exploded.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 4: And if you've seen the video, the sandwich is in
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 4: the wrapper like it's you know, it's not like it's
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 4: not four.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: K wrap those subway sandwiches. Yes, So is it cut
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: in half? That's always my thing, They always in half?
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 4: There was this one was actually properly cut, and it
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 4: looks like a decent cut. Sometimes you get you know, six,
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 4: sometimes you get it. Sometimes you get an eight inch
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 4: and a four inch. Sometimes it's it's wild over there. Anyways,
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 4: So the agent for the officer further testified here that
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: he had mustard and condiments on his uniform and an
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: onion hanging from his radio antenna that night. Now I
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 4: want to say this because I'm having trouble delivering any
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 4: of this without a smile, but they largely took this
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 4: case pretty seriously in court. Both sides. It seems like
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 4: the jury thought about this, which I'll get into their
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 4: deliberations here in just a second, But despite some like
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: small some small cracks and decorum like that, you know,
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 4: this was treated in court as a serious case. Now
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 4: during closing arguments here, the defense to Sabrina questioned whether
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 4: the officer really felt threatened, and they kind of got
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 4: into how his coworkers and stuff treated this after the incident.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 4: His coworkers gave him a plush toy sandwich as sort
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 4: of a gag gift, and he displayed it on his
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 4: office on a shelf, and they also gave him like
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 4: a little insignia that he reportedly put in his lunchbox
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 4: and it showed like, you know, sort of a drawing
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 4: of Sean here hoisting the sandwich above his head, and
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 4: it had the words fell any footlong on it. So
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 4: it's kind of like, just from the way other people
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 4: reacted to it, you know, like your own fellow officers
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: and stuff, it's hard to say, like what, like was
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 4: this really ever an assault? Like was this really ever
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 4: an intimidation? Like it's kind of you know, it's kind
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 4: of hard to say, but he.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: Shouldn't have thrown the sandwich at the officer. I mean
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: to it.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: We'll get to it.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, Look, I mean I get it. But at the
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: end of the day, you can't be throwing things at officers.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 4: I understand, and I agree with you. And but this
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 4: went to the jury.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: He had lost an eye.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 4: I'm just will that'd be a very different case. But
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 4: this was ultimately left in the hands of the jury, who,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 4: according to sources, reportedly enjoyed sandwiches during their delivery.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: We get to say it, and no, they didn't get
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: Subway sandwiches. The judge would put on that one.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 4: Probably not. And I've never gotten picked for a ve
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 4: so I've never gotten to enjoy. You know, a government
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 4: provided sandwich in a jury deliberation. But you gotta imagine
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 4: that there were a couple of people wanting to test
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 4: this theory out and chuck in a couple of sandwiches.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 4: You gotta imagine that people were like, how.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: Hard the wedding cake when you put it on the
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: ride of the groom you smear it on them?
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 4: How hard would this really hit you in the chest?
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 4: Like what would happen here? Anyways, they did take their
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 4: time with us, Like I said, they took this seriously.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 4: They took several hours before delivering their verdict acquitting Sean
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 4: here of all charges. I think the defense attorney here
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 4: kind of said it best in their in their clothing arguments.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 4: They said, this case, ladies and gentlemen of the jury,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 4: is about a sandwich. And I do agree that, like
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 4: you shouldn't be throwing stuff at officers and everything. I
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 4: don't know. I'm always curious because we've seen this, you know,
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 4: we just talked about some of the evidentiary issues and
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 4: how you know prosecutors trying to get Clinnie's parents involved
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 4: may have opened a Pandora's box for them. What do
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 4: you think about this, Rachel, like trying to go for
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 4: felony here? Like was this a prosecutatorial overreach? Like was
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 4: this like what are your thoughts on someone who's worked
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 4: has worked more closely in the law than I have.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: If you can't get a grand jury to indict your case,
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 3: you have a problem. This is not a felony case. Yes,
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 3: it could be a misdemeanor. I see it, And you
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: can't throw sandwiches at officers. And they want to protect
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 3: the offer, so they're going forward, like okay, where do
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: we draw the line if you can throw sandwiches, can
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: you now throw? You know, cookies? Can you throw? And
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: then so they're just trying to establish a line here.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 3: But there is always prosecutorial discretion, and even though you
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 3: have a crime, it doesn't mean you have to prosecute
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 3: all of them. That's a lot of expense towards any
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: kind of prosecution, A lot of time and government resources.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: Go into it.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: So, you know, the officer, with all the sandwich jokes
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: and everything, he was fine. He could have probably just
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: moved through his day. But they overreached absolutely with the felony.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: I think the misdemeanor charge could have gone either way.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: It certainly is a misdemeanor if he intended to hit
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: the officer all of those things.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 4: I'm curious do you think at any point so once
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 4: they weren't able to get the phlony, do you think
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 4: that there were some conversations where they were like, hey,
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 4: you plead guilty to this light misdemeanor charge, you do
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 4: some community service, like we all walk away from this,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 4: like there's no need to put this in front of twelve.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 3: So what actually happens in a lot of misdemeanor cases
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: that are just kind of on the line is somebody
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: has to go do community service anger management classes and
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: that it's called the judicial diversion, and the case gets
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 3: take like it's never charged, so they have this period
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: of time to complete these classes. There is like a
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 3: punishment for these people. And this is happening every day
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: all around you. And in Los Angeles where I am,
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: the city attorney does misdemeanors and the DA does felonies,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 3: So there is a distinct different prosecuting body who handles
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: a misdemeanor from a felony. But often with misdemeanors that
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: just are probably not worth the trouble of twelve people
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: not going to work that day, et cetera, et cetera,
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: they implement this punishment, you know, two hundred hours of
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: community service or fifty hours of anger management classes. That
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 3: is horrible for this guy, right, that's real time that
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: he's got to go in and repent for the sandwich toss.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 3: But then it's not on his record and you haven't
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 3: had to have a jury do this. It goes off
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: his record because that's where people fight. They don't want
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 3: a misdemeanor on their record. It shows up for their
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 3: jobs everything, but they still kind of get the punishment
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 3: they want through the prosecutorial agency, and this case was
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 3: probably appropriate for that, and the city attorney wouldn't have
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 3: gone through the expense and time and perhaps embarrassment of
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: losing this case or whoever the prosecutor, sorry, the prosecutor,
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: prosecutory body of you know, where this replaced.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, what a mess? That makes sense, This one, you know,
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 4: kind of polarizing because you know, I do agree that, like,
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 4: you know, you shouldn't be thrown You shouldn't be throwing
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 4: sandwiches at people. You know, No, there's other ways to
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 4: voice your protest or you know, displeasure with certain situations.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 4: Minister Robinson said, So tossing food at someone is not
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 4: assault or littering. He should have been charged with both.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 4: That is very disgusting, which, yeah, I.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: Mean, like you I kind of agree, Yeah, yeah, I.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 4: Guess they maybe a littering charge would have been a
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 4: little bit more.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: I think if this had just been a misdemeanor, if
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: it had been handled and you know, and I don't
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: was there an apology, I guess because he was found
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: not guilty, he doesn't have to apologize.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 4: No, he did own up to saying yeah, he did
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 4: throw the sandwich, just you know, didn't didn't agree with
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 4: the intent there.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: It's the intent where you have the issue.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And I also think, like I wonder too,
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 4: I mean, I guess, Rachel, there's probably more pressure on
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 4: you to move forward with some sort of charge when
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 4: you have video of an incident like this, like becoming
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 4: as widely circulated as it is, like you don't want
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 4: you know, like if all the eyes around you. I
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 4: would guess maybe that was some of like the impetus
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 4: in this case to sort of like move forward with something.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it became a match of egos and all of
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 3: the things, most likely, but intent was always the issue
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 3: in this case, as you've spelled it out, you know.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, we have some people, like I said,
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 4: some distractors obviously throwing a sandwich at an officer not great.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 4: Some people were sort of endorsing this guy and kind
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 4: of we got some ideas for some for some sponsorship
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 4: here Corbyn Diea had lifetime free sandwich. Wh As I say,
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 4: which I mean, this is a this could be a
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 4: hell of a promotion for subway. I don't I don't
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 4: know if they want to that, but it's not helpful.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 4: Jeff g said, wah wah needs to declare a Hogi
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 4: fest in honor of justice.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: Being makes some good sandwiches.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 4: Wawa sandwiches are so incredible.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: So good those sandwiches. I like, my, can't waste that
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: and throw it.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 4: No, my East Coast friends hyped up. I was like,
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 4: it's a gas station sandwich. How good?
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: It is, very good gas station sandwich.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 4: My gosh, that is a heck of a sandwich.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: It is fabulous.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 4: I would not be thrown I would not be throwing
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 4: one of those.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: No. No. When I was a reporter in South Jersey,
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: I'd have a Wahwa sandwich practically every day, or when
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: the crew and I would have to figure out where
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: we if we didn't bring our lunches. It's like wa
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: wa yes, yeah.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 4: They got incredible sandwiches over there. I'm gonna end this
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 4: one on a comment from mister Honesty, who I think
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 4: really just sums up the whole thing pretty well. Really,
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 4: I said, such a waste of a perfectly good sandwich, which, honestly, yeah,
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 4: kind of like this. All parties involved, This was a
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 4: waste of a sandwich. This was an unnecessary thing to
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 4: do to do to an officer, and you know we
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 4: didn't need all the fallout probably from it. But that'll
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 4: do it for this section. I want to thank everybody
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 4: who left those comments. You can do that on our
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 4: YouTube community slash post page. And do you have any
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 4: other comments from our wonderful viewers that you'd like to share?
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: I do as you know, I like to read your
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: comments on YouTube. So in regards to last week's podcast,
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: which is about a husband who was charged with murdering
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: his wife by throwing her down twenty floors of his
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: luxury condo, this is Jimmy IK eight x Q right.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: It's the love boalmbing and the beginning that makes a
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: controlling bond and addiction because the thing was everyone we
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: couldn't figure out. It's like, why does she keep going
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: back to him? Why does she keep going back to
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: him when he's so horrible? And then Lexia writes, what
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: a beautiful woman. I wonder what she saw in this
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: psycho Hello agreed, kudos to her family for fighting for
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: her before and after her death. I truly hope this
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: man is put away for life. He deserves the worst.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: And then Madam Magato. Forgive me on this. I've commented
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: on this in so many places. But ladies, when he
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: shows you who he is, believe him the very first time.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: Listen to him because he's showing you that he's a
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: control freak. That is him communicating who he is loudly
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: and clearly to you. Get out, go far, don't look back.
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: So right, so true. Thank you so much for your
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: kindness and again your observations on these cases. You all
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: are just so I just so spot on. I love it.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we do really have a great community over there.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 4: On YouTube, you can comment on any of our videos.
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 4: Anna does read your comments. You can also reach out
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 4: to us anytime on social media. We're across all platforms
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 4: at my True Crime News. But that'll do it for
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 4: this week's comment session. Until next week.
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: Don't do crime, Rachel, Oh, is such a pleasure having you.
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: Where can people find you or follow you on social media?
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 3: I'm at law and Rachel on Instagram and always available
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 3: on my website at zfzlaw dot com.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: And many of you know that you can see Rachel
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: doing commentary for so many television stations and networks. You're
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: always everywhere. And then you're also in court. I don't
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: know how you manage, but always appreciative. You can find
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: me at Anta G News. You can find everything we
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: do at my True Crime News. Subscribe to our YouTube page,
• 1:17:43
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• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: So until next time, this is True Crime News the Podcast.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, Santa Garcia And as we now say,
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: crime never stops and NotI you're doing