Latest / WoT Spoilers / A Shard of a Moment & What Must Be Done - A Memory of Light ch12-13 - EP601

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A Shard of a Moment & What Must Be Done - A Memory of Light ch12-13 - EP601 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time spoilers podcast.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Man, I feel like we're just so far off topic here.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: We're talking about shit that we don't know anything about.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: So do you want to talk about something that we
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: do know something about?
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: I know so much more about the whale of time
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: than is necessary or healthy.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: And I can't wait to start the land fear debate.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: It does kind of really kick off in this chapter,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: doesn't it? It does. Or these two chapters. We're doing
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: two today.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: And looking forward, the next few chapters, there's a fair
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: amount of Perrin and land fear stuff as well. So
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: I'm excited to sort of keep that in mind. And
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: I'm going to look for the evidence that they say
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: is there. I'm going to look for it.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: It's not there. But we'll look for it.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: And I will point out where I think they think
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: there is evidence. Yeah.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: I just, I look at that and I'm like, no.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Matt Hatch, I'm coming for you.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: I know. I know. We're definitely setting ourselves up to
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: tilt at the windmill of one of the titans of
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: the community. Also, these sections today are, I think, one
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: of the most... really obvious back and forth contrasts of
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Jordan wrote it, Sanderson wrote it, Jordan wrote it, Sanderson
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: wrote it. A lot of this stuff is just so Sanderson.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: And then suddenly it feels like it's 1995 again. And
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't think Sanderson wrote this part.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I'm wondering how much of this final scene
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Jordan had written like a long time ago, and it's
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: just been sitting there untouched.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Most of it. That's been my thesis since when I
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: was just reading it the first time. Since before I
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: joined the community, since before I joined this podcast, that's
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: always been my... He wrote some of this stuff early
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: and then just spent the next two decades, three decades
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: writing all the stuff in between the opening scenes and
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: the closing scenes. He wrote the ending first.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: This is parts of the ending that he was putting
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: down as like, okay, I'm not going to get too
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: off track. I need to write to this scene eventually. Right.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Is my head canon. Heart canon? Heart canon.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: I like that. Heart canon.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: I remember a long time ago, someone had posted like
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: the taxonomy of all the different canons. It was like
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: eight or something different entries. And yeah, heart canon was
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: definitely in there.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: Voogee, there's always time for evidence of Van and Dredd. Always.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: It's true. It's true.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: You show me. I mean, do we ever see Doom
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: and Dredd and Van in the same room? No, I
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: don't think so. No. No.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: You know, someone in Y Idol this year did a
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: whole song about how it would have been awesome if
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Tame and Dread had been a thing. The song was
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: actually Demondread. It was fantastic. It was like one of
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: my contenders for best in show, unless it was always
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: going to win. But it was such a fun, like,
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: phantom of like, this is how it should have been.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: We should try to yes and that and make a
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: parody song that argues for Van and Dread. I think
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: this should be one of our creative challenges is can
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: we make a parody that makes the case for Van
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: and Dread?
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: We have to start with, we know it's not how
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: it turns out in the end. We know it's not
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: how it ends, but up until the last battle, what if?
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. All right. So we should start today with
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: chapter 12, a shard of a moment with the symbol
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: being the land fear moon and stars.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: Yes. Right.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: This is not the Cad Swain moon and star hair ornaments.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: This is the crescent moon with a line of five
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: stars bridging the rest of the circle's arc.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: This is sort of what's described, I think, on her belt.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: The one that I think is responsible for the thing
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: that makes everyone think she's so attractive.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, Compulsion Light?
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the Compulsion Light that we used to talk about.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which, you know.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: I think that's so.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: He's referencing how he felt. Rand is referencing how he
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: felt in book two when he's talking to her when
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: Compulsion Light was at maximum presence. So, yeah, strong agree.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: And one would assume she doesn't have that, you know,
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: Terangrial on her anymore.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: No, I would assume that that got lost somewhere around
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: the fires of heaven, total ending of her material reality.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Where her body got basically bale-fired. Well, not bale-fired, obviously,
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: because we got her soul back.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Transferred to another dimension and then evacuated of her soul. Yes.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: All right, so I will read us into Brigitte.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: The sad, sad Brigitte.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: This is definitely some heart-rending Brigitte for sure. Birgitta dashed
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: through the forest, accompanied by a group of thirty Ayil,
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: all with bows out. They made sound. They couldn't help
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: but make sound. But the Ayil made less than they should.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: They would leap up onto fallen logs and run deftly
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: along them, or would find stones to step upon. They
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: would writhe out of the way of hanging branches, ducking, twisting, moving. Here,
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: she said in a hushed tone, rounding the side of
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: a broken hill. Fortunately, the cave was still there, overgrown
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: with vines, a small creek running past it. The eel
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: ducked in, the water removing any scent of their passage.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: Two of the men continued down the game trail, now
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: moving much more loudly, scraping against every branch they passed.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Birgitta joined the ones hiding in the cavern. It was
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: dark inside and smelled of mold and earth. Had she
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: hidden in this cave, centuries ago, when she'd lived in
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: these woods as a bandit? She didn't know. She rarely
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: remembered any of her past lives. sometimes only fleeting memories
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: of the in-between years during her life in the world
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: of dreams before being brought into this world unnaturally by Mogedion.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: I'll stop there because I could just keep going, but
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: it's just all shredding your heart about what Brigitte is
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: dealing with and losing and unable to process with anyone
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: because no one in the entire world is having her experience.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: But ending with the fear that if she's been ripped
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: away from the horn... She's been ripped away from her memories.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: She's been ripped away from Geidel.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: That's what it concludes at.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: And I think what's going on with her is actually
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: she's reconnecting with the pattern. Right. She was ripped away
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: into this mortal body. And as parts of her are
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: leaking away, we know it's not disappearing. And we know
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: later on that she gets it all back when she
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: ends up dead again, back in Teleron Riad. It's just
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: I feel like basically what was what happened is that
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: when she was initially ripped out of the pattern, she
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: was sort of for all intents and purposes torn away
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: and attached by nothing but a thread. And if she
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: had died, what she was would have died with her.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: And that would be the end of Brigitte. But as
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: she survived in the body, the legend of Brigitte could
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: go out of that physical body and back into Teleron
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: Riad over time. And that's why she's losing herself. And
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: that's reconnecting her with the wheel. And so then when
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: she dies in the real world, she's back. Enough of
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: her is back in Teleron Riad that she gets to
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: basically be the hero of the horn. Her soul is preserved. Right.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: That like the bonding her as a warder and keeping
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: her alive saved Brigitte from being destroyed.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: Right. She thinks that her memories are just evaporating into
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: the mist when in fact, yeah, that ship already sailed
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: when Elaine bonded her. That's when she could have just
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: evaporated into nothing.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: Evaporated. Right. Because she was dying.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: But because of the water bond literally tying her into
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: the fabric of the current moment.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: The pattern has to rebalance where her cognition, where her memories,
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: where her emotions are being stored because she has too
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: much for a mortal body, but there's somewhere for it
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: to go. And yeah, of course she identifies with where
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: her conscious mind is and is like, I have lost
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: my memories. But really it's that, yeah, she's kind of
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: split into two, right? And all of this extra stuff,
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: she can't access it because it's extra, but like, It's
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: not gone the way that she thinks it is just
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: because she doesn't currently possess it.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: It's going back where it belongs, which is like as
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: a mortal, she's not supposed to remember all these past lives.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: The problem is, right, she didn't grow up in this world. Yeah.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: So she's becoming mortal. Just like she normally is when
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: she's spun out of the wheel, which is you remember
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: everything from birth until now. None of your past lives.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: That's what's happening to her. She's only remembering what happened
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: from her quote unquote birth. She was just birthed as
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: a full grown adult. And so, yeah, it's she's losing
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: everything else. But that's putting her back on the wheel
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: of Hero of the Horn death and rebirth, because that's
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: what's normal for someone who is being spit out repeatedly. Right. Right.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: She just knows slightly too much about the metaphysics of
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: the world to be like the existential dread has an
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: extra bite because she's like, did I lose Geidel forever?
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: Because losing him for one lifetime, it's existentially terrible if
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: you know that you're mortal. But if you know that
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: you've got this cyclical thing, then the existential terror has
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: to like move to another tier out.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: And you've got this weird memory because you remember all
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: your everything you because you access that stuff in your
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: current life. So you should remember remembering it. Yeah. Right.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: So you kind of have this like she knows that
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: Geidel Kane exists, but she has no actual memories of
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: him anymore. Only memories of remembering him.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: It's heartbreaking.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And actually a really well written take on her character.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know how much of that was Sanderson and
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: how much of that was Jordan's intention with her. But
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: I really enjoy her having this flaw because she was
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: kind of coming out as like. Brigitte really was this
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: golden girl, right? She was awesome. Everybody loves Brigitte, right?
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: Who doesn't love Brigitte? Brigitte is amazing. But her struggling
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: with this tie to her immortality, I think, is a
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: good twist on how do we make her doubt herself?
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: How do we make her story a little more tragic
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: than just like, oh, she's a hero and she's having
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: a blast.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: A hero almost is like an excuse to be a
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: Mary Sue.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: Like that curse. could have been like no she's not
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: a mary sue she's a hero right like taverin and
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: plot armor right but no she actually is flawed and
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: i do think that sanderson has a bit of an
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: influence on how she's written because she does change a
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: bit in the sanderson books but it doesn't feel like
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: a regression it feels like it's still a forward progression
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: with her in a way that like all the other characters,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: they revert. I wish Brigitte had reverted. I don't like
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: where she goes. I don't like how she gets crankier
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: and more, you know, like the thing that she apologizes
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: for when she comes back. I'm like, and she feels
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: like she's reverted. And I want that reversion. I very
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: much think that Sanderson did a good job with that
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: baton pass, even though I don't really like Brigitte as
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: she gets cranky, but that's because she's cranky. And people
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: are generally not likable when they're cranky.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: Right. Right. But then I feel like that does provide
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: a nice little when she comes back and she's just
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: happy again. And you're like, oh, my God, this is
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: the Brigitte that we know we love. And we got
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: her back. And she's, you know, this fearless hero once
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: again with Guidalcain having been born. So we know they're
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: going to be reunited. Right. Like, it's just it's great.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: And it feels believable, even though Sanderson's writing is like, oh,
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: you making Brigitte annoying was a very deliberate stylistic choice.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: You always could have reverted her to this. It just
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: was not plot appropriate. Got it.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: And I love her little Hawking would know like, you know, this. Oh, yeah.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: I hang out with Arthur Hawking all the time because
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: it is that is kind of the fun. Like the
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: one thing I imagine being in a celebrity's mind would
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: be how they like hang out with other celebrities. And
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: they're like, oh, yeah, I'll just go like ask Robert
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: Downey Jr. I'll just go ask, you know, like. Right.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: You know. So name someone. I don't know why he's
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: the first one I think of. Stupid Marvel. It's in
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: my head.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: I've never heard of an actor in my life.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But it is that I imagine there is this
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: little bit of like, oh, yeah, I can just go
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: ask another celebrity and they'll know.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're not a celebrity to you. They're a colleague.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right. So we've been talking a lot about Brigitte,
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: but now what's going on here? They're ambushing. They're holding Kandor, right?
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: No, they're still chewing on the Trollocs in Andor.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: We're in the Bramwood forests. We're continuing on with the
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: Andorran campaign.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: Yes. Sorry. We jump around a lot. I misled which
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: section we were in.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of POVs and locations. There's four battlefields
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: with a bonus battlefield.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: So they're using Aiel to hunt the Trollocs.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a hit and run, chase me into
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: the woods and get murked by Aiel sort of strategy
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: that they've been doing for a bit now.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: We've got two fan named maidens. Yeah.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: Nichol and Ludin. Yep.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: Nichol is named for Nick Hill Road and Ludin is
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: named for Niles Loden. Nils Loden, not Niles, probably. Sure.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: But yeah, this is what they, you know, they got
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: the Trollocs to chase them out of the city and
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: get shattered on the road and now follow them into
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: the woods where they keep getting stabbed. And that's now
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: been going on for a couple of weeks or a week,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: something like that. And it's sort of running to the
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: end of its efficacy. So we're picking up after quite
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: a bit of more battle has gone down, days more
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: battle has gone down for this battlefield. Remember that the
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: time space warp is starting to happen. And this is
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: one of the more distant of the battlefronts.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: I had not noticed that that was a longer time frame.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Pretty sure that this is one of the longest, most
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: protracted one of the battles. And it's got to be
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: because it's farther away from Shale Gould than everyone else.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was trying to look for hints that the
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: time diffusion is happening. And that makes sense that it's
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: starting now in the last book.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this battle is one that just takes for freaking ever.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: And I don't just mean in terms of page count.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, when we check in with them, they're like,
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: it's been another couple of weeks. It's been another couple
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: of weeks. I'm like, Jesus, how long is this taking?
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: Rand is doing everything in one afternoon. Watch this army
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: for time jumps.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: Because the plan really was to end this battle quickly.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: And this is the moment where they are failing, right?
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: All the other armies are basically doing what they're supposed
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: to do, which is Stall and delay, you know, to
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: one degree or another. Obviously, the gap is lost. But really,
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: here's where they're losing the last battle, because this is
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: just taking way too long. And the Trollocs just seem unending, right? Right.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: Two can play at that game of stall and delay.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: They need to get this battle done quickly. So what
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: does the Shadow do? Tie them the fuck up and
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: just keep them stuck here and thus unable to move
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: forward on their other plans.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: And if the other three battlefields are overwhelmed, well, then
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden, even if you win this one,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: doesn't matter. You're screwed.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: They've been fought to more of a plateau than they
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: had hoped at this relatively early point.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: And one of the things I really do want to
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: look for, because I don't feel like I fully understand,
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: is how did we go from fighting it all for
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: these battlefields to having everything happen at Marilor? Because it
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: feels like we as the light are losing, especially after
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: the captains do their whole betrayal thing, right?
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: And then everyone's like, okay, we'll retreat to Marilor. And
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: it's like, why doesn't the shadow just keep rampaging the
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: countryside and destroying whole countries and villages and force the
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: forces of the light to defend their homes?
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: I think that it's once you've got the army you're
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: fighting on the run, you stay on their heels. You
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: don't stop and spread out. You chase them and kill them.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: I think is the idea. It's just the armies of
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: shadow just want to take out the armies of the light.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: And once they have the armies of the light running
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: on the back foot, I mean, that's who you have
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: to fight. That's who you have to defeat in order
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: to then have free reign to rampage the countryside. That's
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: kind of how I've interpreted it, but I am neither
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: a person with literary comprehension or knowing of how military
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: things work. Yeah, essentially what TC Traveler is saying is
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: that Trollocs are dumb and Sanderson wanted a big battle.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: Those may be the real reasons. Someone with more knowing
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: of things, please chime in if that's not the right take.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: But that's kind of what I think it is.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Also, it's like they would have had to march all
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: that way because you can't, you know, portal Trollocs. You
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: can't gateway Trollocs. Right.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: And if they scatter out and lose cohesion, then they're
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: going to be easier to pick up if they stay
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: as one chasing force. Being on the offensive is generally
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: better for you as an army.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: I suppose. Anyway, yeah, it's just a thought that I
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: was sort of thinking to myself, like, I don't really
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: understand how everything came together at Marilor. And I'd like
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: to keep an eye out and see if I can
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: clarify that to myself, at least.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Well, I know that there's going to be a great
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: many frantic discussions between the generals and Delaine trying to
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: figure out that they need to pull back. So I'm
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: sure we'll have more opportunities to really get into those
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: details without just, you know, running our mouths.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: Rand in his dreams is the next POV.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is flipping from what is clearly, in my opinion,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Sanderson's writing to what feels like early days Jordan writing.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: This has a dreamlike quality that feels like it's pre-Dragon
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Reborn levels of writing. This just feels like eye of
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: the world levels of mysticism.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: My notes are quite a bit denser on this section.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: There you go.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: It's a clear tell.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: But I will say that the dream shard thing is
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: new to Sanderson's writing.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. He does name them. Yeah.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: But the way that Rand thinks and talks and moves
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: through space is just so... This is 1995. I don't
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: know what to tell you.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: One thing I do know is it does feel like,
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: because we've always debated, was Louis Theron a dreamer or not?
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: And it feels like he's not. He's just very well
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: trained in the dream.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing, right, is that what we call
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: a dreamer in the Third Age does not map neatly
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: to dreaming abilities in the Age of Legends, right? Because
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: every channeler in the Age of Legends, at least the
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: ones who had access to an education, which we assume
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: is all of them, knew how to go to Teleran
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Riyadh with a Turang Riyadh and knew how to manipulate
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: it and knew how their dreams did or did not
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: touch that world. And all of that was standard information
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: and the technology to get there was so much more
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: common that every channeler had spent some time in the dream.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: Whereas now we're like, you're a dreamer if you've even
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: figured out that the world of dreams exists, right? Because
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: the knowledge gap and the technology gap is so much greater.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Like Rand has, Luz Theron has, more knowledge of dreaming
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: than most third age true dreamers just because of the
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: age of legends knowledge base.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: But it does i do think it's interesting on the
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: page he had not it says he had not been
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: a dreamer.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah He had not been a dreamer, but he was
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: still trained in the dream. And you notice, too, in this,
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: they talk about learning how to enter a fragment like
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: this while meditating, giving the body rest as real as sleep.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: There is a way to do what Egwene's doing, dreaming
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: all the time, without burning yourself out. But the knowledge
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: gap is such that she doesn't know. She just does
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: dreaming and burns herself out. Meanwhile, Rand's over here being like, yeah,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: a dream shard obviously allows you to have the best
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: of both worlds.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: It's a shame he's not around to just, you know,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: teach after the apocalypse. Yeah.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: His schools are a great gesture, but maybe like a
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: tenureship would have.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: Been more helpful. Like bringing forward the lessons of the
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: age of legends.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm a literal time traveling mind. Ask me anything.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: So, okay. The one thing I will say is Lanfear's
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: attempt on Bran to deceive him is, feels just so transparent.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Like she's barely even trying.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: Again, this is some great hunt bullshit. She's salining so hard.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Help me. Help me. And of course, like a woman
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: in a white dress. Now, she looks like Sindane. She
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: doesn't look like Lanfear in the dream is my assumption.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: He doesn't describe her, but he says her face is different.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: But we're assuming Sindane. Oh, yeah.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: No, she is required to maintain that costume at this point.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: It's an act of rebellion for her to look like herself.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so we go through this sort of very
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: transparent attempt to seduce him where, you know, he spots
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: it and she goes, so you are back, Louis Theron, basically. Like,
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: you are fully. And to me, I was like, really?
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Just because he spotted this, like, you don't think the
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Rand that you know could have spotted that now after
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: all of the things he's been through?
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Again, it feels like Great Hunt logic. This feels like
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Great Hunt world building and Great Hunt emotional maturity. Yeah,
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: there's some Sanderson-style exploits of rules, but the interaction is so,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: so old school and basic feeling.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Well, that's why I don't think, well, I mean, either
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Jordan would have had to written it way back then
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: and never having updated it, and they just used it wholehearted,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: or it's Sanderson imitating Jordan's writing style of the time
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: and going back and being like, ooh, where do we
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: like Lanfear? Let me go back and read The Great
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: Hunt and take that character. and put it on the page.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: And that's what it feels like to me.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it could be.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't want to believe that, but I mean,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: you're right. That would also fit the profile of features. But,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: you know, this does give us a chance to sort
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: of do a full circling around on the farm boy,
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: but with experience now, right? Like in Great Hunt, he
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: would have tried to help this woman because you're supposed
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: to help women and I'm a man and helpless damsel.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: And for a while, Rand would be like, Fuck you.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: I hate you, you fucking bitch. Eat shit and die.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: And now he's fully let go and fully integrated and
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: he wants to help her again. But now it's from
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: this place of pity and compassion and, oh, you silly woman,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: like how you have tangled yourself up and I wish
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: I could help you, but I can't. It's this very
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: different impulse to help.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: And knowing that helping her isn't pulling her out of
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: the hole that she created for herself in order to
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: trick him. That helping her is helping her see that
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: she's actually given herself to the wrong side and has
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: a chance to come back. Right. And there's this moment
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: where like he wants her to open her mind to him.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: And like in Teller on Riyadh, that like means something.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: And like. Would give him a chance as, I assume,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: kind of the creator's avatar to break her bond with
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: the Dark One and bring her back into the light
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: in a way that couldn't be done outside of Teleron
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: Riad or if he wasn't Rand.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so confused what he's trying to get out
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: of her with this. I was not clear on the
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: actual function of like, lay all of your secrets open
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: to me so that I could potentially crush your brain
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: like Jell-O. I don't really get what he actually was
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: going to do. I don't think you can just wish
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: your way away from the dark one.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, isn't that the whole no one is too
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: far into the dark that they cannot be brought back
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: to the light? Like, is that not something that we
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: wanted from Lanfear? Or from Asmodian, right?
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: I just don't know that I want Rand to be
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: able to meld a woman's mind into not being evil anymore.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: I don't know if that's the solution to salvation that
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: I was trying to find.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Well, and he clearly can't, right? He can't make her
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: not evil. She has to make that choice herself. I
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: think what he could offer her was the ability to
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: get away from the Dark One if she made that choice.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: So then why doesn't she want to do it?
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: Guilt.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: He's literally offering her absolution. Like, what is she trying
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: to hold back? What is the thing that she still
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: can't stand to have him see? Like, that's what I don't...
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: I don't get it. Like, I get why he opens
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: up to her to be like, look, I literally have
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: nothing to hide, but I don't understand what she's still hiding.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: Maybe just jealousy that he doesn't love her? Maybe.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: Like he doesn't know that?
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: Just the history of evil that she's done. She feels
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: guilt over that.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, maybe, yeah, she doesn't want to see herself
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: from his perspective because it will look so much worse
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: than her self-conception. I don't know. This act of openness
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: and submission has always felt a little hand-wavy to me.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: I'm not totally sure what I'm supposed to take away
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: from it. I mean, yes, it is scary to reveal yourself. Definitely.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Like being vulnerable and Being open to someone is very scary.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: I just, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to get
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: out of her still being reluctant to do it while
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: I was being like, no, please save me. I'll do
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: anything for love, but I won't do that. You know,
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: it's just like, I don't like, I don't know. It
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: feels like it's supposed to be a really big, intense decision.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: And yet it's just like, no, I'm still petty. I don't,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know. I'm not sure what lesson
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to get out of this, I guess.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: And then it feels like once she fails with Rand,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: that's when she turns to Perrin and is like, well,
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: if I can't trick Rand, I'll try and trick that
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: simpleton Perrin over there. And I feel like that's the
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: start of that plot line with those two.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And again, the pettiness just of her being like, well, you,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: you never said you loved me. It's just like, I don't,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: this feels like it's supposed to be so much more cosmic. Yeah.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Yeah. But Lanfear is supposed to be
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: so much more angry at Rand.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: And I want it to be about more than just
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: you looked at another woman. And I also really don't
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: like rand LTTs like, well, I didn't actually know what
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: love was until I met her. And I'm like, so
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: you're telling me you dated this woman for centuries and
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: never said the L word because your heart of hearts
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: just knew you hadn't found the most perfect woman yet? Like,
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: what is that even supposed to mean? Like, You could
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: have just been wrong. You could have just had love
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: that existed and then ended. But no, I never could
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: have loved you because I hadn't met Ilyena yet. Just
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: feels like such a weird, like, so you're justifying why
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: Blanford's so pissed at you. Almost. Like, I know love
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: is the reason for everything. Love is why we live again.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Love is why we try again. I get that. But
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: I would have been a lot happier with I loved
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: you until you got weird. about it or.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: Something you know i loved you till you found the
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: dark one and changed right yeah.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Like i did love you and then you fucked it
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: up because you couldn't just trust me or whatever and
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: yeah totally tc traveler maybe the point is that it's
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: petty and not cosmic but i want it to be cosmic.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: And then he basically says i'm done with you mirren
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: and sure enough like they never really interact.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: Again because he no longer hates her or fears her
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: he has no hope emotion he simply has keep your
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: head down and maybe you can try again on this
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: lifetime after the battle is over and she's like oh
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: i am gonna stab you so many times i'm gonna
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: take your best friend and i'm gonna use him to
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: stab you right like yes i definitely think her heel
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: turn not heel turn her pivot to parent occurs at
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: this point at this point parent is her best option.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: And she still wants to kill rand right like the
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: idea that she doesn't want to murder the fuck out
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: of rand is just like why wouldn't why is that
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: not her number one.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Goal Oh, she wants to murder him. For some reason,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: she had a moment of weakness and didn't for like
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: five minutes. But then when he didn't fall on his
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: knees and beg her to take him back, like she
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: just went right back to wanting to kill him. But
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: now she's extra on team Lanfear gets what Lanfear wants, right?
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: Her loyalty to the dark is not getting her the
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: Rand death that she wants. So she will literally abandon
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: the dark to try to get this man killed.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: And that, speaking of Perrin, that brings us to a
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: Perrin POV. Ow. So these are in the Brainwoods. He's
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: supporting Elaine in the fight for Andor.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we saw him do the, hey, come and get me,
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: run away to tempt the Trollocs out of the city
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: walls in the first place. Yeah, he's been with them
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: working on that. Because like I said before, of all
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: of the big nations, Andor is the one he wants
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: to align with. Because, you know, he's literally part of Andor,
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: kind of.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: On paper.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: And he... Has a lot of Aiel loyalty, right? Starting
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: with Gaul, moving on to Bane and Chia, now Adara
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: and a whole bunch of other Aiel. They're like, no, no, no,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: we want to stay with you. You specifically are our dude.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: We did that whole like Shido situation, right? He's got
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: his Aiel now. And he goes to one of the
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: wise ones and says, forbidden knowledge, please. And she shuts
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: him down.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: I do feel like that's their way of, they're both
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: serving Rand, but they're also like a little bit of
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: the bleakness in them where they don't necessarily want to
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: serve Rand directly, maybe. And they found this way, other
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: way to fulfill their obligation and their Jito as opposed
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: to becoming, throwing down their spears or becoming Guy Shine.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Like one of the things I kind of look for
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: the Aiel is like, how are they dealing with the
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: revelation of, that they were told by Rand about their
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: history and about the, the toe that they basically owe
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: for betraying their oaths and, and sort of by not
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: following the way of the leaf, they're all dealing with
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: this as a trauma. And I think a lot of
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: them are looking for ways to fulfill that toe with, by,
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: you know, finding G and one of the ways they
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: do it is through serving parent in this case, but
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: you know, serving Rand is hard, right? That's the thing.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: Like it is very difficult for them. It reminds them
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: of their shame. And so for a lot of them,
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: they have to run away from that.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: How does Perrin first get assigned the proper army of Aiel?
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Does Rand send that with him to go to get Massima?
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: Is that a sign? No, because that was the fake fight.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: When does he get an actual proper contingent of Aiel?
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: Well, some of them are waiting for him.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Because of Gaul and Bane and Shia, they kind of
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: lay that groundwork for when he does that sneak away mission.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and Rand goes and talks to some of
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: the Aiel to send them away. Anyhow, I was thinking,
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: it's not just that Rand is hard to serve in
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: the larger cosmic sense of like the secrets and the revelations.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: He's a really difficult leader to follow. He doesn't want
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: to lead and he has a billion people trying to
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: get him to lead them at all times. Perrin... has
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: a lot less people vying for his attention. And he
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: is very solidly locked on serving Rand. So it's actually
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: a very efficient diffusion of force to move some people
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: to this subunit, essentially. And then, yeah, you feel like
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: you're doing a lot of good for Rand because you're
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: not dealing with getting in his way and dealing with
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: his bullshit, right? You can serve him by serving a
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: leader who's actually remotely competent. I mean, Perrin resists leadership,
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: but he's at least good at it in a way
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: that Rand struggles to achieve. And yeah, Rand travels a
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: lot more. And also you'll notice that Perrin never talks
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: about dealing with people suffering from the bleakness. Like once
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: they lock into being in his military, they don't seem
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: to really have that existential dread anymore. The camaraderie of
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: Perrin's army is enough to get people through that crisis
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: of faith and keep them connected to their community.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Adara joined him when Perrin traveled into Giladon to keep
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: an eye on the Aes Sedai who accompanied him.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: And that was to go get Mestima, right? That's where
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: he was at the time, was in Giladon.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, that was the Crown of Swords. So that's right after, yeah,
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: Dumai's Wells. So they were in Dumai's Wells. Basically, this
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: group of Aelbe were with him in Dumai's Wells and
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: then accompanied him, right? Because that was the sort of,
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: he was, so they saw the wolf.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: That's the inciting incident was Dumais Wells. It was a
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: bunch of them that he led because of the whole
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: emergency ad hoc. We got to go get Rand. A
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: bunch of those are like, continuing to serve with you.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: We like it. We've trauma bonded. We're good now.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: And that was sort of the first time he started
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: building this new army, right? Because he sort of built
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: that army out of those forces that were with him
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: at Dumais Wells, who all came together because they all
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: were for Rand, but he organized them to go rescue Rand. Right.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Right, okay, okay.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: Because he's the one who realized Rand was missing, right, first.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Right, so then when they did the whole subterfuge fight thing,
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: it's like, there's some contingents of Vahiel that are easy
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: to assign to him on the down low. Yeah, okay,
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: that makes sense.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: And then he went back to the Two Rivers folks
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: that he'd organized under him and sort of re-raised that army,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: and like, he had these, you know.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: And those guys were already familiar with the concept of
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: Vahiel from working with Bane and Sheod and Gahl. Throughout
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: the campaign of the Tiros. Yeah, it's only three people,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: but it's enough that you know what Jeito is. You
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: know what an uncovered face means because, like, you spent
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: weeks dealing with your homeland being invaded and those three
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: just being an absolute monster.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, those three being the core of your fighting force
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: because they were beasts. So, yeah, you realize the fighting
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: skill of the Aiel and what they're capable of. And, yeah, no, absolutely.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: And Athlon's pointing out that also factors a lot into
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: how the Aes Sedai apprentice system gets started. Perrin bringing
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: people together for Jemai's Wells. That lays a lot of
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: the groundwork for that cross interaction too. But yeah, Perrin
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: is looking for how to get into the world of
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: dreams physically because he thinks that that's going to be
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: the only way he has the strength necessary to properly
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: take Slayer out of the game permanently.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: Which is true.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: And Adara's like, I don't care how evil he is.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: You don't get to do that because it will help
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: you lose the part of you that makes you human.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: And I'm looking at Wolf Boy going, but the wolfy
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: part of him will be fine.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: And that is why I think he's able to gain
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: the ability to pop in and out of Telluride. We
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: talk about how you need that combination of two souls
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: that you get when you combined Slayer. That's what gives
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: him the ability. And how there kind of is these
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: two souls and parents is the wolf soul and the
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: human soul, even though it's one soul, whatever you want
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: to call it. But like it is the wolf dream.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: There is that the wolves have the ability to access
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: the wolf dream. So whether you know, I think I've
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: heard the argument both ways. Right. The parents, either two
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: souls or that it's just like because he's a wolf
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: soul and wolf souls can automatically access the wolf dream.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: He has that ability. But like. I don't know of
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: any wolves that can do it physically.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think he's definitely, I like to think
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: he's one soul that's just in between both. He's got
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: aspects of both hybrid soul situation. But yeah, having a
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: human's ability to do dreamwalking things and a wolf's ability
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: to be of Telerunriad to a whole other degree combines
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: to allow the stepping in and out. And I think
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: also combines to make it so that way whatever sort
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: of loss of humanity thing does or doesn't exist doesn't matter.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: I don't even know if I believe that it exists
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: for anyone, but I think it especially doesn't exist for
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: someone who's literally part wolf.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: I would argue that the people who we see who
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: are in and out of the world of dreams the
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: most do have a sort of cold scent to them
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: that makes them smell less than human. So there does
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: seem to be something that they lose. But they're often
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: also evil people. So it's like, uh... Isn't that.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Just Slayer that smells cold? Luke and Esom?
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Slayer in both cases?
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: Right, right. I think Moradin as well.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, well, he does spend a lot of time in
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: the dream. But yeah, they're always all evil people in
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: the first place. So I would hazard a guess that
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: maybe only evil people do it, ergo it makes you
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: an evil person.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Sort of distortion.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: They've got the causation backwards, basically. Yeah, exactly.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Exactly.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: This is evil, not because it makes you evil, but
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: because evil people do it to do horrible, horrible things.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Which then makes you wonder if maybe it does make
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: you evil, right? It's like.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: Well, it's the power, great power corrupts, right? Like the.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: I was thinking about money. Yeah. But yeah, same idea.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: It's like, is money the problem? Or is it the
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: love of money that's the problem? Like, sometimes the data
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: does not provide a clear answer. And then, yeah, the
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: whole concept of like what Gawain may have done with
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Making herself more one-towery than she had to be. Like,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: that's maybe not inherently evil, but it's certainly not making
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: you more human.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: It is chipping away at your humanity, maybe not in
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: a binary moralizing sense, but still in a way that
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: could cause, you know, concerns.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: And suicides.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: For your personality.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for your health.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Like, it might not be good for you, even if
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: it's not, like, intrinsically devilishly evil.
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Because I feel like the second you make yourself
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: an idea of what you should be, you're becoming less real.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: But like, what if you could use that to heal yourself? Like,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: what if you had like phantom pain or something and
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: you could like literally go into the dream and be like,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: I don't have phantom pain. I'm fixing that. Like, I
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: believe it's not real to the point in this space
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: where like, no more. Right. Like, I think you can
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: do that. Like with certain physical therapies, you can actually
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: like deal with that. Like, In Talleyrand Riad, how much
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: more potent could that very real phenomena be?
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: You can give yourself a fake hand and then move it.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: Right, right. It seems like in Talleyrand Riad, that would
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: be way more efficacious than the thing we know can
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: happen in the real world already. So yeah, exactly, TC Traveler.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Maybe the word evil should be replaced with dangerous. That's
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: what it is. It's dangerous, and evil people tend to
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: be very blasé about the dangerous things.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Combined with it lets you do crazy-ass shit, like pop
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: into someone's bedroom, murder them, and then disappear.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: The temptation to do crime is definitely a lot higher.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: It's like, why are you always suspicious of the people
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: who say they want to be invisible as their superpower?
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: Hmm.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: Hmm. Think about that. Why exactly do you need to
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: be invisible? What exactly are you planning on doing? Being invisible? Being...
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Unable to be seen so that you can't be judged
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: or prosecuted for things you do. What about that appeals
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: to you exactly?
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: I never thought of the power of invisibility being so creepy, man.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: I always just thought it was a way to avoid
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: eye contact. That was what appealed to me about it.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: I'm like, no one would try to make eye contact
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: with me. Several people are typing in chat. Everyone had
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: a reaction to that. Uh, no, Dr. Pants, apparently I
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: am as pure as driven snow.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, the disbelief of that answer from the chat is
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: just great.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Yes, very autistic answer. Yeah, okay, well. Wow, yeah, okay,
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: apparently I am just singularly non-crime minded.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: I just, usually when people ask me for superpowers, I'm
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: fixated on flying. I just kind of bypass invisibility in general,
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: and I go straight to flying. So I haven't spent
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: that much time thinking about it, actually, because I'd rather fly.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, teleportation, I think, would be almost more happy than flying, right?
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: Not having to travel between places to just be in
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: another place, yeah.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: But then there's so many other things that are like,
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, let's be honest. Healing. Being always in good health,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: no matter what.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Top tier. Sure.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: Top tier.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, what's the whole, you don't have anything if
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: you don't have your health? Well, guess what? Wolverine. always
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: has his fucking health. That's why he's always, he gets
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: to be independent, you know, libertarian dream because he's always healthy.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: He never has to worry about health care. So he
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: can take any job he wants.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Workplace injuries be gone.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Right, right.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the way that your life alters radically from one
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: little injury, much less a chronic holistic injury. You know,
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: Dungeon Crawler Carl, there's a lot wrong with that world. But,
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, you'll be back to full health in five
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: minutes because magic does have its appeal.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: Cancer? Don't worry about it. Tuberculosis? Don't worry about it.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. All the murder dozers and goblins are a problem. But, yeah,
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: no TB. Yeah.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: Also, apparently you don't get the Benz.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: I did appreciate that the Benz is not good TV,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: so it is not in our Intergalactic Cave. So yeah,
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: that is all I've got for that chapter, is just
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: talking about the dream.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: And she says, don't go. And he says, fuck you,
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go meet Rand. And he'll let me in.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's like, fine, if you won't help me, I
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: know a guy. I'll go in a back alley and
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: get myself a gateway. Yeah, totally. And with that, we
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: switch to chapter 13, what must be done. And the
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: symbol is the line of Andor. And I don't even
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: feel like reading us in because it's literally just a
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: POV switch as we continue to gallivant through today's reading.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: Question, I guess a shard of a moment from the
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: last chapter was the shard that Rand, the dream shard
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: that Rand is in.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't see the sentence itself replicated in the POV.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: But yeah, dream shard and an important moment with Lanfear, right?
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: Sanderson does love the word shard. I'll tell you what,
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: it's one of his favorites.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: He has a real thing for shards.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: Shard too, that's true. He does spend quite a bit
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: of one of his books describing a shard.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: I didn't need that information.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: The question is asked, what do you do when you
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: have to go to the bathroom in your armor when
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: you're stuck out there all day fighting for, you know,
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: eight to 12 hours? And the guy's like, well, Sometimes
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: you just got to go on the plate and get
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: it cleaned up later.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure that's accurate to like actual people
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: getting nailed into their suits of armor for whole days,
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: but like, goddamn. Do you ever see that movie with
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: Whoopi Goldberg getting transferred, transported back to King Arthur's court
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: and dealing with Merlin?
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: No.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, I can't remember what it's called, but I think
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: it came out like right around a night in King
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: Arthur's court. It's like, I got it, which I never saw,
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: but like, I feel like there was a lot of
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: the same advertising, but yeah. Whoopi Goldberg science experiment goes
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: wrong and she gets transported back and makes friends with
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: Merlin and does court jester stuff. And there's a scene
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: where she gets strapped into plate armor because she has
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: to duel with someone. And there's a joke about she's like, well,
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: now I have to go to the bathroom. And they're like,
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: all right, come stand under this bucket of warm water
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: that we're going to dump on your head. That's what
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: you got to do because it takes way too long
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: to put plate armor on and off.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: So we're just going to rinse you off after you go.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: It's a very funny movie, but that's definitely one of
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: the more memorable scenes. Full plate armor, bucket of warm water.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: Who was that movie called? Now I have to Google it.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: Night in Camelot?
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: A Night in Camelot.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: Yes. Dr. Pants with the win on that one.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Oh, it's based on a Connecticut Yankee in
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: King Arthur's Court by Mark Twain. Yeah, so it's very
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: specifically riffing on that whole thing. And then she gets
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: to run away to be a futuristic space scientist at
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: the end, which is cool. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, she's a
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: doctor in the present day. And then when they ask
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: her what her name is, she goes with the name
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Boss because she wants to be the boss because she's
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: a black woman in science in the 90s. So when
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: they're like, you can have any name you want. She's like,
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be the boss. And it's great. Notice
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: how you never hear about the Knights of Camelittle. I
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: haven't thought about that movie in a minute.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: So chapter 13, what must be done? Yeah.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: What must be done is Gwaine.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: Murdering a bunch of Trollocs.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is what we saw the last time with
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: Egwene and Bryn was, hey, can you use us offensively,
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: not just defensively? Can we be an offensive force? And
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: Bryn says, well, yes, I do actually have some pretty
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: awesome plans. So now we're jumping ahead to those plans
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: being enacted and we get to see the kind of
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: raging Aes Sedai battle line that has only been hinted
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: at with Jumai's Wells before. This is the most aggressive
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: show of Aes Sedai battle force that we've seen yet
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: in these books.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: And yet, because it's on Trollocs, it's less emotionally impactful, right?
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: I do feel like Dumai's Wells, because they were doing
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: it to, you know, humans, was always one of the, like, yeah.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: This is less horrifying and more just impressive. Just the
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: way that Egwene is both strong in herself and has
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: her favorite weapon, Vora's Sawangrial, and has a circle. No,
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: she doesn't have a circle. Does she have a circle?
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: No, she does not.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: She's not of a circle, but they're working in coordination.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: She has her favorite sword. I mean, Rod. And they
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: just set up a you shall not pass line and
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: all the Trollocs die. She uses earth. She uses metal.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: She uses just so much volume. that the army shatters.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: It's kind of like what Rand did at the end
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: of Eye of the World, right? This is a team
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: of women who are all juiced up. Every single one
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: of them has a Turangrial, right? Because they finally raided
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: the White Tower's storeroom and distributed the damn Turangrial.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: The Angrial. It's Angrial.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the Angrial. They finally did that. And all these
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: women are working together. They're all breathing hard. They are
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: putting their all into it. And they are equaling what
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: Rand did in Tarwin's Gap with the Eye of the World.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: One thing I thought was really interesting is the bond
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: between her and Borasongriel. She felt as if it had
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: claimed her and she it. And I was just wondering,
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: because that is something we do notice. It gets written
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: about frequently where Ongriel have a familiar feeling to them
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: or they belong to somebody and not always the person
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: who's using it, right? And this seems to be one
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: of those moments where it belongs to her or chose
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: her in a way that, like, we later learn how
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: they're made with the seed. And so it makes sense
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: that the person who made it, it would belong to
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: that person. But maybe there's something enough alike between her
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: and who Vora was that she can become the owner
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: of that, right? Because assuming, right, if a song real
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: is made with a circle, someone has to lead that circle. Yeah.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: They would still belong to them first. I don't know.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: It's just I'm trying to add to the lore of
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: song real. Yeah.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: My feeling was just that the sheer volume of power
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: that she moved through it bonded her to it. It's
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: almost like a trauma bond. I mean, she talks about
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: how she understands how a soldier could feel bonded to
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: his sword, right? Like we've been through some shit together, right?
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: She channeled at like her max strength for so many
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: hours during the battle of the tower.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: The light-blinded fool, the red rod chose a lane.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: Wow. I mean, no lies detected. No, no.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: I feel like the crystal rod in Rudian chose Avienda
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: for sure.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: But yeah, to me, it was more of a halfway
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: just psychological. This was her sword for an important battle.
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: And also maybe if you use a channeling device, think
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: about how addictive and potent the power is. I think
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: she's projecting onto the Yongri all of it. I don't
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: really know that I believe it chose her, but also
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: I do believe that my sewing machines can be cranky
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: at me. So like, you know, personifying objects is a
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: very real human impulse.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: Especially when it's going to react like this and feed
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: you power. And like, I can imagine that it feels
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: very much like a living thing because it's channeling the power,
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: which is kind of a living thing, right?
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: Like, Right, like, can they become almost sentient if you
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: use them hard enough? Do they almost start to, like,
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: wake up and look back at you?
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: But yeah, what follows is a very cool scene of
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: murdering Trollocs with earth and metal and fire.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's awesome. She's leaning into the fact that she
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: is an earth-heavy person in ways that are unusual for
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: eyes to die. She's weaponizing the metal that they brought
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: to kill her people. You know, like, it's good. It's good.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. To the point where the soldiers don't even have
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: to fight the ones standing at the front. The Trollocs
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: are running into essentially a literal meat grinder of the
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: One Power until they retreat.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: There are no casualties or even injuries on their side.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: The soldiers just get to stand there and go, oh god,
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: I'm glad they're on our side. Wait, aren't there Dreadlords?
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Oh no, this is bad. They just get to stand
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: there and watch and go, this is why we've had
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: the Three Oaths in place. Because this would make warfare
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: a whole different.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: And they're declaring themselves a threat, right? I think this
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: is the moment when I think you realize you've got
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: to bring in a force to neutralize the White Tower. Like,
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: they're not nothing.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I also like how Sanderson's like, the Greens live
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: up to their Aja's reputation. See, they're doing a good job.
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, Sanderson, I know you're a fan. I
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: know you've been in these discussions where we're bitching about
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: how the greens and yellows should have been doing their job.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: I love that you're giving the greens this credit, but
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: are they? Are they living up to their reputation or
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: are they falling very short because they haven't trained properly?
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: Well, and just think about How many more Aes Sedai
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: there should be on this battlefield? A hundred? What? That's nothing.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: That's nothing. And just the number that have like... I
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: always say we start the series with about a thousand,
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: which is already way down from where it should be.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: We end up losing a bunch of those to all
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: sorts of various things, but around a quarter of them
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: to being black. Aja, so then you're down to like 7,500.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: And then a bunch of them are... Another probably hundred
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: or so are killed in various... things that happen and
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: so you're down to like you know 600 ish between
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: seven ajahs each ajah is less than 100 easily i
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: said i left yeah there should be two three there
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: should be 500 just green ajah right with the last
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: battle coming the green ajah should have been pumping those.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: Numbers And they should have been out there doing cheerleader
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: levels of tower building and gymnastics and style while they're
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: killing these guys. Not just, oh, we showed up and
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: had raw power. Like, great. That's the bare minimum. It's great,
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: but it just feels like the bare minimum. And the
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: last thing I have on this POV is that the Angrial...
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: are all being used on the battlefield here. They're going
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: to be collected and taken to the hospital just as
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: soon as these battles are done, right? These things are
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: working 24-7, just being shuttled. back and forth between where
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: they're getting used. Like the channelers have to sleep and reset,
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: but the ongriol and the saw ongriol don't. Those can
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: actually just keep getting used, passed from hand to hand
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: to hand. Like, do they melt? Do they have a
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: transistor that burns out?
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's exactly like my job, right? We run
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: the machines where I work 24 seven, right? And we are,
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: that's why I work 12 hour shifts, half the days
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: of the week, which means every other, I do every
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: other Wednesday to make that even out. But like, What
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: that means is there's four shifts and we cover 24
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: hours a day, seven days a week. And that's because
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: the machines run are more valuable than the people. Right.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: You guys have to go home and sleep, but the
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: machines don't.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: And they're either running or they're being fixed. Right. Right.
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: They do technically have to stop in a way that
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: on grill don't because on grill don't have repair cycles.
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: You don't have to change the oil on the fat
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: mentor on grill. You know, it's just not a thing.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Or maybe you do. And that's why some of them
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: don't last very long.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: Deferred maintenance, and then it blows a head gasket. Now
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: it can't channel the power anymore because the magic smoke
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: got let out. Yeah, no, that makes sense.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: Never let out the magic smoke. Nothing works except you
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: let out the magic smoke. No, no.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: So POV switch over to Bashir. No, to Elaine, talking
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: to Bashir.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: Elaine, right.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: This is where we're starting to get that sense of
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: the tide of the battle is stalling out sooner than
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: we want it. We're going to start losing momentum and
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: needing to think about retreat. We're not actually thinking about retreat,
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: but we're starting to realize that we need to be
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: ready to think about retreat.
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because we're kind of learning that things are not
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: going well on any of the battlefields right now. They're
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: not overwhelmed, but the people who are told to hold
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: aren't holding as well as they need to. They need reinforcements.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: The gap has been overrun and the people who are
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: supposed to win their battle quickly have not. Right.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: We were mustered and ready to just power through and
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: punch through. And we ran out of juice and momentum
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: so much sooner than we thought. So you try to
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: like run up the hill like I've got all this
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: momentum and you go like two feet up the hill.
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: You're like, I'm too tired now.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: And it's like they wanted to pull the Trollocs into
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: the forest because then, you know, that sort of prevents
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: you from being overwhelmed by a charge of Trollocs. But
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: at the same time. your cannons were really good at
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: breaking up a charge of Trollocs. So maybe you did
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: want to stay in the open air. That was always
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: a little confusing to me. It seems like it's not
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: necessarily the best advice. I wonder if we're already getting
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: dark friendery, but he did say like the forest was
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: a good place to ambush from. Right.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: We've used it up. We've used the advantage it gave us.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: The thing with Elaine's battle is it's a series of
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: limited efficacy moves, right?
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: You just have enough of those. You can hammer them
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: with them enough times and, Maybe you can win, but
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: like every move she's got has a very limited amount
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: of time that it functions for, right? The Trollocs learn
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: to get off the roads where they could get mowed down.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: They learn to go deeper into the woods where it's
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: harder to hunt them. But she still managed to squeak
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: out like a week of killing Trollocs by using those strategies.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: Sure. And so now they're retreating to the Aranon where
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: they can, you know, essentially ambush the Trollocs when they
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: come for them.
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: So their idea is essentially to retreat across a series
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: of rivers using easily built and destroyed raft bridges because
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: running water, you know, makes for a really solid barrier.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: So they can hammer at the Trollocs and kill a
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: lot of them while they figure out how to get
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: over that river. And they've got like, I think, three
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: rivers that they can look at the map and say,
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: all right, we can do this in a almost like
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: trench warfare, right? Like we can retreat back behind another trench. Again,
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: it won't last forever, but it gives them the next
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: phase of fighting to aim for.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: And that is a thing in the Wheel of Time. Like,
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: Trollocs and Fades do not like crossing bodies of water,
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: just in general. It's not.
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they can't swim. They have to have a bridge.
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: And it's really easy to fuck people up when they're
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: building a bridge under a hail of fire from you.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: You know, it's like building a bridge is a very
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: high mortality occupation when you don't control both banks.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: And that is something... There's a lot of, you know,
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: Lord of the Rings, but... all sorts of fey legends
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: about dark creatures don't like to cross running water, right?
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, that's like one of the oldest rules
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: about fey is running water. Like that and iron, you know?
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: But it is an interesting question of, is this the
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: beginning of Hesalam affecting people? Is this the beginning of
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: good decisions that put you into a vulnerable position? Like,
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know that it's super obvious when that starts,
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: and it certainly could have started at this point.
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: None of them are complaining about bad dreams yet. None
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: of them are. We haven't seen any evidence yet. But yeah,
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: I don't I don't argue that it's not. Yeah.
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: Like that's like we're in the space of like, is
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: there evidence or is this actually just the battle is
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: a difficult thing and we're making the best decisions we can.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: Like at what point does that take over? Like, do
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: they get the headache starting right away or does it
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: take a while where she has to influence them harder
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: and harder before the headache threshold gets reached? Especially because, yeah,
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: great generals are not going to complain about a slight headache.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: They're going to wait until they have a full-blown aura
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: migraine before they even mention that they feel slightly off.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: And I don't actually know, Fuji, why the Fae have
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: such an issue with water. I'm not actually clear on
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: what that's about. I don't know what the folklore reasoning
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: for that is. Same with iron. I just know that
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: it's a thing that you find across all kinds of
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: European folklores, but I don't know why.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: Chapter 31 is when the headaches get mentioned. So we're
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: still a ways away from that, it seems like.
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: Which means that it might be starting. If it takes
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: a while for them to actually get to the point
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: of voicing a complaint about a headache, then it could
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: be starting now. But it might not be either. Because, yeah,
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: it's not like it's bad advice to say, what is
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: it Bashir says, we're stirring the battle, but we don't
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: control it. We're riding it as a man might ride
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: a stampeding horse. We can try to direct, but we
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: cannot stop it.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: And we hear that from Matt all the time, right?
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: That's not necessarily an evil argument, or not evil. That's
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: not necessarily a compromised rationale. That is how a lot
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: of things work.
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: That is how the great generals approach battles, right? Like,
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: you ride it the way you can, you take advantage
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: when you can, but for the most part, you're not
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: in full control. You're just, you know, guiding here and
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: there to try and make things turn out the way
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: you want.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: Right, which I mean, that's all battle, but particularly when
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: you're on the losing smaller side.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: Of the battle. Yes, right, right, right. But yeah, there's
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: no such thing as timelines anymore, right? Because now anything
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: can happen relative to any other time because it's all,
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: you know, wibbly wobbly, timey wimey.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: Generally speaking, the closer to Shale Ghoul, the less time
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: is passing. But we've got a lot of different locations
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: and perfectly mapping them by like minutes and distance is
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: just it's not going to happen. And POV switch.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: Back over to Perrin.
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: Golden eyes.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: And this is where he formally makes Tam his second
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: in command and also in command because Perrin's leaving. Perrin's like,
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: I gotta go. I gotta be completely out of communication.
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm going to survive. We need
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: to not have a power gap, not even for a second.
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: So Tam, sorry, but this is your job now.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: Which, you know, as the commander of the guardians in Ilion, sure,
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: he's cut out.
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: The companions?
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: Companions.
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, and I mean, he's been on the village
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: council for as long as Perrin's been alive, right? He's
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: been being a general under Perrin, right? This is not
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: a radical departure for Tam or for the Two Rivers people.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: It's just locking him into more authority and responsibility than
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: he was asking for. But it makes sense that, like,
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: we need the most competent, least disruptive... replacement for Perrin.
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: If Perrin has to leave, we can't just be having
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: it fall to whoever wins an arm wrestling contest. It
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: needs to be one of the dads in the room, right?
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: Although I do think it would have been fun to
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: give it to Danil.
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: It would have been really appropriate to give it to Danil,
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: but he just has not had the page time rapport. Like, nah,
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: giving it to one of the dads makes more sense.
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: But no, Danil would have been fantastic. Hey, 4th Tavirin,
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: here you go!
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: I needed you at the end of this book to
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: run the army. That's what you were needed for this
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: whole time. You just kind of get to skip the
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: intervening parts. So after giving the command of the army
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: to Tam, he talks to Bornhold and finds out that
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: Ordeth killed his family. So it's one of those things
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: that I think we knew, but... Oh, we knew.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: We knew. We always knew.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: Okay. Because Ordeth himself talked about it, right? Yeah.
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: Ordeth reflects on how much he needed to kill all
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: of them. And yeah, Bornhold... is being eaten alive by
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: knowing that Perrin is wrong about who killed his family.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: It seems to be really bothering him that Perrin is
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: under the wrong impression about who is to blame. And
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: he says, you know, like, I knew it was wrong.
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: I didn't like it. I did nothing.
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: Like, that Perrin is wrong about who to put his
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: murderous anger towards is bothering Bornhalt, which is such a
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: weird brain pretzel. Like, I kind of get it, but
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: I also, like, you hate this guy so much, and
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: yet you're willing to kill your best friend over him,
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: And you're bothered by him being wrong about who to
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: blame for his family's deaths. Interesting.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: I have to wonder if he's being like, ooh, maybe
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: if I tell you this horrific thing right before you
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: go into battle, I can throw you off and get
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: you killed.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: That was always my first read of it because he
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: even says like, I know it's a bad time to
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: tell you this, but I just had to say something.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, did you?
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: Did you? Was Perrin walking around being upset in a
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: way that made this seem like closure? This isn't. This
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: is the opposite of closure.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: Feels like exposition for the sake of exposition. Because it's
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: not like Perrin goes and kills Ordeeth or anything. It's like, no,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: Matt does that, right?
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it distracts him and puts him off
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: his game for a few minutes, but it doesn't ultimately
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: change anything.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: Right. It's a very odd reveal for something that we
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: already knew in this moment.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: Is it supposed to maybe be the basis of them
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: coming to a better relationship and that just never got
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: fleshed out?
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: Because, yeah, Perrin's kind of done for the rest of
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: the last battle in terms of the real world because
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: he goes and fights in the dream world. By the
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: time he makes it back out, he just he's basically
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: passed out for the rest of the battle.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm thinking of like the fire in the ways
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: and how that was like supposed to be like, was
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: this part of like setting up like, oh, and then
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: they can have this other conversation later where they get
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: a little bit closer. And like that didn't happen because
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: of other editorial decisions.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: But sure, because he was in there with him with
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: fire in the ways, wasn't he?
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: Right. Exactly.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: Did we do an episode on fire in the ways yet?
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: We've talked about it so many times. I have no idea.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: We haven't, no, we have not done a titled episode
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: about it. We probably should at some point. I like
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: Marzipan's interpretation. Sanderson was bothered that Perrin was never told.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: Not Bornhold. Bornhold was not bothered, but Sanderson was. So it's, yeah,
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go with, it was a seed for
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: something that didn't get to come to fruition.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: Cause like, Now is kind of the time to do
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: Fire in the Ways, right? I mean, he would have
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: done that already.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: It feels like it should happen between this conversation and
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: when he goes to the dream, but that physically isn't
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: possible because of the fact that he goes into the
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: dream at the end of this section.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: But it kind of feels like, yeah, it should happen
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: after Bornhold says this revelation, but before Perrin takes off
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: to be out of the battle for the rest of
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: the thing.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: Which is why it's not canon, because it's like there's
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: no way for him to, like, shoehorn it into the
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: story in terms of working in the timeline.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: Right, right, right. So yeah, maybe now is about when
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: Fire in the Ways wanted to happen, but for reasons
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: it had to get cut. But like roughly around now
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: is when it would have been if it had worked.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: I like Gaul. I'm going to go with you to
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: this dream within a dream because, you know, I'm tired.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: I can use the rest.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: I love Gaul so much. It turns out I'm ready
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: for a nap.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: That was really funny.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: And Perrin's like, that's not how that works. And Gaul's like, Well,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: it's how it works unless you want to kill me.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, the way Gaul says, I'm coming. Kill me
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: or let me come with you. Those are your options.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: Just like Gaul is so hardcore. It reminds me of
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: when the maidens all threatened to kill themselves if Rand
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: doesn't let them fight.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: It's a very Aiel attitude of like, all I want
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: in this life is to do this thing. And if
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: you prevent me from that, I will literally exit life.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: Despite the fact that he's got two hotties waiting for
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: him to come back. Bane and Geod and White.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: I know. I know. I do want to talk about
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: them briefly because Perrin thinks, how must it feel for
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: a pair of warriors to wait this out, the last battle?
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: And then, you know, has the comment about, you know,
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: Rand and Giotto, whatever. But like, that's not important to me.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: What I thought was interesting was how they are not
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: necessarily waiting it out or sitting on the side. There
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: are so many ways to contribute to the war for
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: humanity that are not violence, right? It's kind of like
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: the thing that the Tuatha'an do later, right? Rain and
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: Isla are out there like looking for survivors among the
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: dead and, and marking the dead bodies. So that way
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: the triage can be more efficient. Others of them are
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: choosing to pick up weapons or some aren't like the
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: guys shine. Aren't just sitting on their hands and, pretending
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: that the last battle isn't happening, right? They are doing
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: the laundry, the childcare, the food preparation, like all the
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: things necessary for the larger, but humanity is fighting for
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: the light. You think the guy shine aren't contributing 110%. Right.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: So it's like, yeah, they can't fight, but that's part
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: of the thing with being guy shine is that you
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: find honor through service anyway, right? So like Bane and
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: Sheod are out there, you know, winding bandages until the
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: cows come home or whatever, right? They're not being useless.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: Perrin and Gaul pack a bunch of supplies and then
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: gateway themselves over to Shale Ghoul, right? Because that's now
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: where Rand is. He's really getting closer and closer to
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: his final walk up the mountainside. And Perrin goes and
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: checks in with him they're doing a test to see
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: if the dark one's eye can see him while he's
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: holding that knife right that's what they're doing when perrin
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: shows up is seeing if the knife works but yeah
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: perrin has to gateway over there to be like hey
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: rand i need an illegal gateway please i feel like.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: That's just an excuse to like be near shale ghoul
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: with a cool background for.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: The scene Well, also, it would be really annoying if
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: they didn't test Ovienda's knife assertion before just waltzing into battle. Like,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: it's a little disrespectful to the fact that she gave
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: that to him. So I like the Sanderson technical. Well,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: we had to do a science first before doing big
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: cosmic magic. We had to do a little bit of science.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: I think you should just trust women.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: Look, I'm not. I'm moving on.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: It's her skill. It's her skill. She knows what it does.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: It's true. It's true. She did say, I don't specifically
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: know that that's how this works, but I'm pretty sure.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: But yeah, no, I agree. The cinematic energy of all
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: of his minions huddled at the bottom of the ridge
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: and Rand standing skylined with the mountain in the background
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: and the wind tussling his hair. Like, yeah, no, for sure.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: That's really why we're here.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: That, to me, feels more like the reason. Because, like,
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: how often do we use something after being told, oh,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: this is what it does? Okay, jump into battle with it.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: Never test it. Use it for the first time in battle.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: That happens all the time in Wheel of Time.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: Well, they've learned from their mistakes, I guess.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: That will be the fucking day.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: I tell you what. It's a good thing nobody gets
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: into a trap for the rest of this series.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're done with traps, right?
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: No, we're not done with traps.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, just the Elaine and Brigitte one alone,
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah so yeah basically perrin goes to rand and says
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: hey so i learned that you have cool things in
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: your brain we're kind of like elaine being like what
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: an advantage this is perrin is now saying hey what
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: an advantage it is that rand knows age of legend
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: things right he's learned that what he wants is something
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: only an age of legends person could provide so he
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: goes to an age of legends person and says hey
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: dude you know that thing that we're not upset about
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: you having in your head anymore can i have some
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: can i have some knowledge please And then Rand says,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: that gives me the squick. I'm not sure that that's
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: a good idea. And Perrin says, do we have good
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: ideas left on the table?
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: No?
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: Well, then let me do the desperate thing. And Rand says,
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: all right, yeah, it's dangerous, but it's not evil, right?
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: Rand seems to have the comprehension that evil is not
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: inherent to this. Just danger. Just bonkers amounts of danger.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: This is also the moment where he says, I am
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: sending someone to the Black Tower to help in a way, right?
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: Because he hasn't really done anything for the Black Tower.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: But here's Perrin saying, hey, I can do something. I
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: know you're worried about it. And Perrin's like, I know
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: part of what it is to blame. I can face
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: him in the dream. Basically, if you send me, I
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: can do something about the Black Tower.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: Right. Rand has been like, I need something. I need something.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: I need something to help the Black Tower. And Perrin says, me,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: I am the something.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: Yep, yep, yep, yep.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: And Rand says, ah, I love being T'Veon. I love
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: it when the solution just walks up and says, let
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: me fix the problem.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. ran would have been fucked if he wasn't so
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: much advantage so many times.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: And then perrin asks for the same thing that matt
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: had asked for which is a gateway once a day
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: to get back and ran says that is also a
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: dangerous proposition but yes i will literally set someone to
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: waste their energy making a super dangerous gateway once a
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: day for your dumb ass to get.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: Back don't you hate when you have to wait for
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: the bus line to come because it only comes once
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: a day once a day yeah But at the same time,
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: you know, gateways are pretty remarkable in terms of the distance.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: But still, this is the gateway into the dream, right?
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: Open up that portal every day.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: Wouldn't it be cool if airports were like that, where
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: it was just like you went to your gate and
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: they're like, OK, the gateway will be opening up to
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: Hawaii in five, four. And you have your appointed time
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: where the gateways open for like five minutes and then
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: it opens up to a different destination. And you just...
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: cycles through all the different locations.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah you just queue up and walk through but instead
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: of having to like smash yourself into an aluminum tin
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: can you just are getting into the lobby of the
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: hotel god that'd be awesome and then rand and parrot
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: and Say goodbye. Right. They know this might be the
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: last time that they ever see each other. So they
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: have a proper goodbye where they're like, I hope I
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: see you again. But also, if I don't, here's a
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: proper manly bear hug to be like, take care of yourself, bro.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: Well, because Rand's like, I'm going to that place where
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: it's prophesized I'm going to die. So, you know, peace
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: like he's basically said goodbye to everybody at this point
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: because he's on death's door. Right.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: Perrin gets one of the last goodbyes, right? Rand is
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: about to do his thing. He gets to say, take
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: care of him to Nynaeve and Moraine, who are all
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: suited up and ready to go into this final confrontation, right?
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: Like it's, we don't get a lot of good closure
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: and goodbyes, but this is one of them.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: And without another word, Perrin and Gaul hefted their heavy
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: packs and stepped into the world of dreams.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: I love that Gaul hears that Perrin's going on an
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: impossible mission and says, not alone, he's not. I just
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: love him.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: I know nothing about the world of dreams, but I'm
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: stepping in there with you.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: I know that I need to follow you and protect
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: you and be part of this. And he owns, he
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: owns Gaul the goat. Gaul is the real goat.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: Gaul and Tolmanus really are the two that save our,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: you know, Perrin and Matt, respectively. Yeah.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: And Perrin and Matt are that for Rand, right? Like,
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: it's just, it's a nice pyramids. stability of badassery. And yeah,
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: that was our episode for today. Two entire chapters.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: Yep. Two chapters. Pretty short ones, actually. Lots of action. Yeah,
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: lots of action. And a short page count. But fun,
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: fun ones. And classics. And a couple of reveals.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and a couple of reveals. And like I said,
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: the same week that this episode comes out, there's also
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: going to be a bonus episode in the feed where
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: I interview the an anthology editor about a book of
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: autistic coming of age stories, of which I am a contributor.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: So keep an eye in your podcast feed for that
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: as well. So Thank you for listening to the Wheel
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: of Time Spoilers Podcast. Please rate and review us on
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: your podcast app. and consider supporting us on Patreon for
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: ad-free episodes. What Spoilers is a production of Fox and
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: Raven Media. For more podcasts from Fox and Raven Media,
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: visit our website at foxandravenmedia.com.