Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / Dr. Catlin Tucker | Rethinking Modern Teaching through Blended Learning, UDL, & Student Autonomy

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Dr. Catlin Tucker | Rethinking Modern Teaching through Blended Learning, UDL, & Student Autonomy · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

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this. Hey, welcome to the integrate this ed tech
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podcast. I'm David Berner joined by co -host
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Jeremy Nickla. And today we have a special guest
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with us, Dr. Katelyn Tucker. Very excited to
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have Katelyn with us and talk about all the different
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things that she speaks about and works on, including
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a number of different books on station rotation,
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UDL, blended learning, gives us a lot of different
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talks and at speaking engagements. So Katelyn,
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welcome to the podcast. We're happy to have you
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with us. Yeah, thanks for inviting me. I'm thrilled
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to be here. And to kind of kick things off a
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little bit, can you tell us? So maybe prior to
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where you're at today with a lot of your different
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speaking engagements and in the books and things
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like that, where did you start off in your career
1:12
with teaching? Yeah, I'm actually shocked. I
1:16
like wound up in this profession. I'm not going
1:18
to lie. I thought I was going to be an attorney
1:19
until my senior year at UCLA. And then went on
1:23
a trip where my girlfriend and I worked as baristas
1:27
in Ireland. And I thought, you know what? I want
1:30
a job where I can travel and I can write. And
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then I was like, what can I do with this English
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degree? Wandered into education almost like by
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default. And the first five years were. awful.
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Um, I almost quit. I just felt like in credential
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school, you know, I'd gone and got my credential,
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my master's at UC Santa Barbara. I had all these
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very elaborate fantasies about what my future
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classroom was going to look like. Um, I, you
1:56
know, imagined kids being excited to like bound
1:59
through the door and like, let's, let's get learning
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together. And those first five years were rough.
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I just could not. actualize this classroom I
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had dreamed about. Like kids did not seem excited
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to be there. They were not engaging with me,
2:13
with each other, really with the content. And
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I just remember thinking like, I cannot do this
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for my entire life. Like maybe I have made a
2:20
huge mistake going into education. And I was
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at this moment of career crisis and actually
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press pause on the decision to like stay or leave
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this this field and had my first child. And when
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I was home doing a kind of a year at home with
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my my daughter, I taught online college level
2:38
writing courses. And it was in that mode as an
2:41
entirely online professor where my interest in
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technology was started to be piqued. So when
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I was thinking about going back to the classroom,
2:51
I figured, you know what? I'm just going to give
2:52
it one more year. I'm going to treat this classroom
2:55
like a laboratory or just try a whole bunch of
2:57
stuff, see what works, ask my students for feedback.
3:00
And if I can't turn this around, I'm going to
3:03
leave the profession anyway, so I don't really
3:04
have anything to lose. And it was in that almost
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unlearning everything I thought I knew about
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teaching where I was able to create this classroom
3:14
that I had dreamed about. And I did not have
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a lot of technology. I was in a low tech school.
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It was like 2008. I was capitalizing on the devices
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coming through the door in my kid's pockets.
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And at that point, there were not that many of
3:25
them, but it didn't take much tech and it didn't
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take much experimentation for me to totally fall
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in love with. teaching and also to really appreciate
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how incredibly capable these young humans were.
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And so I taught in a high school English language
3:41
arts classroom in a public school in Northern
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California for 16 years. I began coaching and
3:47
working with teachers and teaching part time.
3:50
Eventually decided to get my doctorate. And now
3:53
I teach teacher candidates at Pepperdine University
3:56
and get to travel all over the world, working
3:59
with teachers, designing customized workshops
4:01
and trainings for them to experience the very
4:04
things I want them to do with students in their
4:06
classrooms. So I feel very fortunate. So yeah,
4:09
and it sounds like a lot of the things I liked
4:11
what you said about like unlearnings everything
4:14
like you had to kind of start from scratch again
4:16
and figure out like how the what's going to work
4:19
for you to approach it. So with looking at some
4:22
of your work now and you know your speaking engagements
4:24
or just looking at the books and things like
4:26
that was was some how many of those different
4:30
experiences early on sparked different ideas
4:34
for the various books that you have. Yeah, I
4:37
remember. So there are a lot of very incredibly
4:40
inspiring folks in education, but I would say
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if I have like a superpower, it is taking things
4:46
that feel complicated and breaking them down
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into strategies and steps and protocols and routines
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that feel doable for educators. So when I was
4:55
kind of blundering my way through integrating
4:59
technology in the early days into my classroom
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and also leveraging my students tech at home
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and reimagining the kinds of tasks they did once
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they left the room. I started blogging and sharing
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what I was doing online. My blog started to get
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a lot of traffic and I decided to write my first
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book on blended learning. And again, it was very
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much early days for me of just trying to kind
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of share what I had learned through a lot of
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like. trial and error, quite frankly, as well
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as all of the resources I was designing to support
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my students in doing this more successfully.
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So I think everything Whenever I'm learning something,
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the best way for me to internalize it, make sense
5:39
of it, and really like cement it for myself is
5:42
to write about it, whether that's a blog. And
5:43
then often my blogs kind of spiral into books.
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I also, I work with so many teachers where I
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get to hear firsthand, what are the pain points?
5:53
What are the things they're struggling with?
5:55
What are they seeing in classrooms? I go in and
5:57
out of tons of classrooms every year. And that
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also really inspires me because I want to help
6:02
design things for teachers that allow them to
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spend their finite time and energy in spaces
6:09
that are more rewarding and enjoyable and kind
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of, you know, light them up instead of drain
6:15
them. So is it then from that, you know, you
6:19
talked about the one year that you had where
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you were teaching online. and then you have the
6:23
experience with the traditional classroom and
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then when you come back again is that where you
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really started to pull together these ideas on
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blended learning you know like and and maybe
6:34
you know i'd like to hear what you say blended
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learning is you know because i i i may be my
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version of it where you combine a little bit
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of digital online with the real life in person
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uh work that students are doing maybe isn't as
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accurate as what you might portray it to be Yeah,
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so I define it pretty simply as active engaged
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learning online combined with active engaged
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learning offline with the goal of giving students
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more control over pace, place, path. in time.
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So they're not going to control all of those
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things all the time, but the goal is to give
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them more control over those aspects of their
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learning experience. And I would say there's
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a ton of misconceptions about blended learning,
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especially since a lot of educators never even
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heard that phrase before COVID and nobody enjoyed
7:26
COVID. So if you're associating blended learning
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with COVID, it's not a real strong sell for a
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lot of teachers. And I always kind of like, I
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don't know, I get so frustrated because I'm like,
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I wrote my first book on blended learning in
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2010, right? Far, like way before COVID. I think
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I'd written like four books on blended learning
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by the time COVID came around. So unfortunately,
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COVID kind of soured people, I think on the phrase.
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And I think it's really interesting that we're
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in this moment right now, where there's all this
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pushback against technology in classrooms and
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people are like, oh, this tech, it's like, you
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know, it's ruining the learning experience. It's
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just a distraction. And I'm like, That's because
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the tech was never paired with strong pedagogical
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practices. Like blended learning created these
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pathways that would have allowed teachers to
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design with a high level of intentionality when
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it comes to technology, but instead we just gave
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them tech. We gave them no new teaching practices
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really. And so the tech just became this like.
8:25
add on or like a substitute for things kids can
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do offline or maybe it like improves a workflow
8:31
for teachers, but it might not even improve the
8:34
learning experience for students. So I just,
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I think it's so interesting in this moment where
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people are pushing back against tech. And I'm
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like, I feel like if we had leaned into blended
8:43
learning models and we had thought about how
8:46
to use these kind of tech enhanced instructional
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approaches, we wouldn't be in the situation we're
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in right now. Is it, you know, I think back to
8:55
when I was in the classroom and it's probably
8:57
right around that time frame of, you know, I
9:00
would say about 2009, 2010. And our school that
9:05
I was teaching at went one to one with iPads.
9:08
And we brought in someone to come in and see,
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I remember him starting with the very, very basics.
9:15
This is how you turn on your iPad. This is how
9:17
you. You swipe the screen to find different apps
9:22
and select them. And then he went into, I swear,
9:25
probably 50 different apps on the iPad that you
9:29
can do stuff with. And that was kind of the introduction
9:33
that our whole staff got to using that tool,
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right? And all of the apps that came with it.
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You know, and I feel like that's exactly what
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you're talking about here as we kind of transition
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or we have been transitioned into this age of
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AI. And I and I feel like that process has repeated
9:53
itself, that we're replacing the tools in front
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of the skills or replacing the apps in front
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of the pedagogy. And, you know, that that just
10:02
is that recipe for disaster. And I feel like,
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you know, as someone with a history background,
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I feel like we're you know, we didn't learn from
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the past or condemned to repeat it. No, I wrote
10:13
this exact thing for an SDA, a CD blog where
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I was just like, basically, where are we going
10:18
to repeat all of the mistakes of the EdTech boom,
10:21
which was, to your point, here's the tool, here's
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all the functionality and how it works, but not...
10:28
How do you weave this into a lesson in a way
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that is meaningful? And we are doing the exact
10:35
same thing with AI. I literally released a kind
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of free K -12 skills before tools AI implementation
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guide for this exact reason, because I was like,
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we have to be teaching students long before they
10:48
ever interact with AI, the skills that they will
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actually need to be responsible dynamic users
10:56
of AI, but right now I agree. I worry that like
11:00
districts are like, oh, we need AI. We're going
11:02
to buy this big platform or whatever. The company's
11:06
folks will come in, train teachers, but the training
11:09
is going to be mostly focused on how you navigate
11:12
the platform, how you use it, not necessarily.
11:17
how do you design lessons where these tools are
11:21
really allowing students more control over their
11:24
experience, more personalization? I just feel
11:28
like we're, again, yeah, we're totally doing
11:30
what we did back when all the EdTech tools exploded.
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Right, and I feel there is a little bit of a
11:36
place, a teacher does need to have a basic understanding
11:39
of what the capabilities of the tools and the
11:43
devices that they're working. Oh, for sure. So
11:44
I get there is a place for that, You know, I
11:47
think it's asking the wrong questions first.
11:49
So like if you were if a teacher comes to you
11:53
and says, hey, I want to purposefully integrate
11:56
technology into what I'm doing and maybe it's
11:59
a you know, what are the questions they should
12:02
be asking first? Yeah, I think, well, when I
12:06
work with teachers, I'm like. What are your pain
12:09
points? What is challenging about your work right
12:12
now? Is it giving timely feedback? Is it the
12:17
grading trail? What is it that you're really
12:20
struggling with? And what is it that you think
12:23
students would really benefit the most from?
12:25
And then let's let that just drive some of our
12:29
decision -making. But for example, right now,
12:33
I think that the potential for AI to allow students
12:38
literally limitless amounts of guidance and feedback
12:42
as they work and write is very exciting. However,
12:46
when I work with teachers, I'm like, okay, what
12:49
are we building around that experience? So students
12:53
are staying the kind of cognitively engaged one,
12:57
but also not just kind of shifting the thinking
13:00
over the work over to AI, can we build kind of
13:03
some metacognitive reflective process around
13:07
that AI use? So something even as simple as like
13:10
a spin on the classic like exam wrapper, right?
13:13
So before you use AI, why are you using AI? What
13:16
questions do you have? What are you struggling
13:18
with? Where do you need support? Okay, now we're
13:21
gonna interact with an AI tool that gives us
13:23
feedback. And then on the back end, What did
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you learn? What went well? What surprised you
13:29
from the interaction? How did you make sure that
13:31
the work still remained kind of authentically
13:33
yours? Simple kind of guardrails around use can
13:38
help students to kind of stay engaged and make
13:42
sure they're really thinking about how they're
13:43
using it and how the use is impacting their thinking
13:46
and their work and all of these things, but I
13:48
don't. I don't even know if that's really happening
13:51
at this point. It's just like, hey, go to this
13:53
station or open your Chromebooks and basically
13:57
interact with this AI tool to get feedback on
14:00
what you're working with. Not like, hey, what
14:02
kinds of questions should you be asking? What's
14:05
the reflective practice we should build around
14:07
this? It's interesting to hear you say reflection
14:11
as many times as you just did right there. Do
14:13
you think that? Because I completely agree. I
14:17
think that's oftentimes, you know, in overlooked.
14:21
Thing when teachers are you know like and say
14:24
my pain point is you know ending the lesson and
14:27
getting students to really internalize what it
14:30
was from that lesson I wanted them to get out
14:32
of it and and one great way to do that is to
14:35
have some sort of a reflective activity where
14:37
students are looking back or they're thinking
14:40
about how could they apply what they've learned
14:42
to a different door or new situation and is that
14:46
do you think one small thing that teachers could
14:49
use. AI to help them develop better reflective
14:53
questions that they would have a big impact on
14:57
student learning. Absolutely. I mean, the one
15:01
of the books I wrote elevating educational design
15:03
with AI is all about how we harness AI to. improve
15:08
our design work so that we're better serving
15:10
diverse populations of learners. And so whether
15:13
it is, hey, help me create a guided note template
15:17
that gets kids thinking about the content and
15:20
interacting with it in dynamic ways during direct
15:23
instruction, or hey, help me build a would you
15:27
rather reflective option for the end of my class
15:29
that gets kids thinking about what did they learn?
15:32
What wonderings do they still have? Absolutely.
15:35
But I think the reality we have to face is that
15:38
the reason so often we don't see metacognitive
15:42
skill building and reflected reflection in classrooms,
15:45
even though we know those things are just have
15:48
myriad benefits from executive functioning to
15:51
self regulation to motivation and achievement
15:54
is because we're so busy racing through content.
15:58
We don't have time for it. Right. So it's just
16:00
one of those things that's super easy to neglect.
16:04
So as you kind of look at UDL and you look at
16:09
blended learning, where do the two things meet?
16:13
If you're looking at an outline for a lesson
16:17
and you're wanting to get to all learners, you're
16:19
wanting to provide a variety of different approaches,
16:21
what would be your first suggestion for a teacher
16:24
to start incorporating those things into a lesson?
16:27
Yeah, well, I have to just say I my my path my
16:32
path crossed with dr Katie Novak right around
16:36
the beginning of kovat and I had been pretty
16:40
like udl was on my radar, but it was really in
16:42
working with Katie around this intersection of
16:46
blended learning and udl that was so incredibly
16:49
powerful for me because what I think these two
16:52
do together that's really special is that UDL's
16:56
like everybody's on, like most people are on
16:58
board. You know, it's not hard to sell, hey,
17:01
let's make learning accessible and inclusive
17:03
and equitable. Like most educators are like,
17:06
heck yeah, let's do that. Blended learning is
17:08
a tougher sell, but the reality is UDL is. really
17:13
wonderful, but it can feel hard to operationalize
17:17
for teachers. Like, how do I do this every day
17:20
in a way that feels sustainable? So when you
17:23
pair UDL with blended learning, now you have
17:26
much more flexible learning pathways that you
17:30
can choose from, whether it's self pacing with
17:32
a playlist, whether it is, you know, station
17:34
rotation, so the teacher can provide differentiated
17:37
direct instruction. So what was interesting about
17:40
the pairing is I think blended learning without
17:42
UDL can sometimes result in shallow technology
17:45
integration. But without blended learning, UDL
17:49
can feel really hard to implement in a way that
17:51
is sustainable, which is why these two are really
17:53
powerful. And so when I talk to educators, one
17:58
of the things I tell them is, When we start thinking
18:01
about universal design, one of the first things
18:04
I emphasize when I work with groups is start
18:07
thinking proactively about barriers. No matter
18:09
what it is we're asking students to do in the
18:12
classroom, we have to be, as the architects of
18:15
that learning experience, trying to identify
18:18
and proactively remove barriers. So even starting
18:22
with something as simple as a would you rather
18:24
option, At key moments in the lesson, how do
18:29
you want to engage with content? What strategy
18:31
would help you process and make meaning here?
18:34
What option would you like to try to demonstrate
18:36
and share your learning? Those simple would you
18:39
rather options at key moments can be so kind
18:43
of. Simple in terms of creating and AI is great
18:46
for creating them But they also really help to
18:49
remove those barriers for learners where learners
18:52
might say, you know I think I'm gonna choose
18:53
this option today. This feels more manageable
18:56
doable for me personally So it seems safe to
19:00
say that like blending blending learning is a
19:04
bit of the key to allowing to reach UDL more
19:08
more effectively. Is that fair to say? I definitely
19:12
believe that. I think that if we're, you know,
19:14
if UDL is really kind of grounded in the reality
19:18
that learner variability is the norm, kids are
19:20
just different from each other. And as a result,
19:22
they learn differently. And the reality that
19:25
if we want all students to reach firm standard
19:28
aligned goals, then we have to provide flexible
19:32
pathways for them to get wherever they're starting
19:35
to that firm goal, right? Like the pushback against
19:38
the word equity in the last few years kind of
19:41
blows my mind because I'm just like. All equity
19:44
is acknowledging is that individual learners
19:47
need individual inputs to reach a particular
19:49
output. So a single lesson for an entire class
19:53
is unlikely to get everybody in that class with
19:56
all their different skills and abilities and
19:58
readiness levels and language proficiencies from
20:00
wherever they're starting in their learning journey
20:02
to the same destination. Kids are gonna need
20:05
different levels of scaffolding and support,
20:08
different amounts of teacher time and energy
20:09
input. And that's really hard to accommodate
20:12
when the only instructional model we have and
20:15
are comfortable using is the whole group teacher
20:18
led model. Yeah, and if you, so with the whole
20:23
screen time debate that's going on too, do you
20:26
feel like blended learning is something that
20:30
needs to be considered as you're talking about
20:34
screen time? Because, and the connection to UDL
20:37
as well because, It's not we talked about this
20:41
before, but it's like it's not as simple as just
20:43
removing the screens because there are students
20:45
that are going to be able to work with those
20:48
to be able to achieve certain things that otherwise
20:51
wouldn't have had that possibility. So do you
20:54
feel like that belongs in there? Or if someone
20:57
was to ask you, how does that connect to screen
21:00
time? What would what would you say is like the
21:03
best response for that? I would say the whole.
21:07
focus on screen time feels like it's missing
21:10
the entire point to me, right? The American Academy
21:13
of Pediatrics released a policy paper in which
21:16
they very clearly stated it's not really screen
21:19
time. Like it's not like not its own metric that
21:22
can be good or bad. It's what are they doing?
21:25
on the screen that actually matters. And so I
21:30
think the work we need to be doing in education
21:33
is auditing the kinds of tasks students are doing
21:36
online. And let me say, I am a huge advocate
21:40
of balance. So when I talk about blended learning,
21:43
I'm like, Our goal, regardless of the instructional
21:46
model, the blended learning model we're using,
21:49
is to balance the online with the offline, right?
21:52
You have a whole group of like 30 odd kids in
21:55
a room. Learning isn't part of social endeavor.
21:58
They should not just be staring at screens all
22:00
class long. That makes literally no sense. This
22:03
is their opportunity to have discussions, to
22:06
collaborate, to debate ideas, to work together,
22:09
to solve problems. let's not ignore that, but
22:13
also like when we put them on the screen, what
22:16
on earth are we asking them to do? Because what
22:18
I observe in a lot of classrooms is that the
22:21
technology work is isolating learners, right?
22:25
They are asked to go on the computer and play
22:28
a... educational game, or work through some personalized
22:31
adaptive software, or watch a video and answer
22:34
questions, right? Very rarely is the technology
22:38
a catalyst for students to work together, to
22:42
do something, to communicate, collaborate, think
22:45
critically, creatively problem solve. I don't
22:48
understand that. I think that's a total missed
22:50
opportunity. And I think actually my origin story
22:53
of my own integration of technology in my class,
22:58
I credit not having tech for every kid, because
23:01
I realized one group of four kids collaborating
23:05
around a phone, an iPad, a Chromebook, could
23:08
do incredible things. And they had really meaningful
23:11
conversations. I almost think in classrooms today,
23:15
when everybody has a computer open, It creates
23:18
that barrier to human connection. And if all
23:21
kids are doing are those isolating tasks or essentially
23:25
digital worksheets or even taking notes on computers,
23:28
which we know from the research is not best practice.
23:32
Yeah, then I totally understand the pushback.
23:34
But I do think if when we had all this tech going
23:38
into classrooms, we trained teachers on instructional
23:41
models like station rotation that is designed
23:44
to allow teachers to work with small groups.
23:47
balance the individual, the collaborative, the
23:50
online, the offline. I don't think we would be
23:53
having the same situation, the same pushback
23:56
happening. I think it's the poor use of technology
24:00
and the abundance of low quality screen time
24:02
that is the problem. Yeah, and that's how we
24:09
view it as well. It's like the... And it's consistent
24:12
to like what is the foundational level that needs
24:14
to be there before you start introducing tools
24:17
and things like that It should serve the purpose
24:19
of the of the design and especially when it comes
24:23
to like collaboration and those type of things
24:25
I want to shift just a little bit because Jeremy
24:27
and I we both often do professional development
24:30
for teachers as you do as well and I'm wondering
24:33
if you could just take kind of those same concepts
24:35
and explain to us like what would be As you shift
24:39
from students in pre -k to 12, what does this
24:45
look like at the adult level with adult learners
24:47
in that perspective? It's a different audience.
24:52
What do you find as different there in terms
24:55
of how you might use UDL and blended learning?
25:00
Well, adults are very different from teaching
25:04
teenagers or younger students. And teaching educators
25:09
is a different experience. Like we sometimes,
25:14
we show up for professional learning in ways
25:18
that I'm like, we would not be okay with our
25:20
students showing up in the classroom this way.
25:22
And that I remember like feeling like that was
25:24
a really big adjustment for me. But I will say,
25:28
In my graduate classes with my teacher candidates
25:31
or with teachers in trainings, I am using the
25:36
exact strategies. I am modeling the exact things
25:39
that I am asking them to do. So when we get together
25:43
in the beginning of a training, we start with
25:45
a welcome activity that is designed to allow
25:48
them moments of connection, relationship building,
25:51
because I'm like, I think every single class
25:53
that we teach should start that way. I don't
25:55
think we should launch right into to content
25:58
before kids have a chance to turn and say hello
26:00
to somebody, right? Like I don't think community
26:03
building should be relocated to the first week
26:05
or month of a school year, but it needs to be
26:07
threaded through every single day that we have
26:09
human beings in our classrooms, especially human
26:11
beings who increasingly struggle to make eye
26:15
contact and have conversations because they're
26:17
on little devices all the time. Right. Then when
26:19
we're, you know, depending on the instructional
26:22
approach and I train teachers on, you know, multi
26:25
-tiered systems of support, like ways to kind
26:27
of present tier one, tier two in that's more
26:31
effective, then I'm employing all those. Or if
26:34
I'm coming into a district and we're learning
26:37
how to design the station rotation model and
26:40
I'm talking about differentiation. I want them
26:43
moving through a station rotation. I want to
26:47
group students based on their subject area and
26:49
provide instructional strategies at the teacher
26:52
led or Tucker led station that are going to really
26:55
work for math and science or English or history,
26:58
right? So for me, it's really about. weaving
27:02
all of those pieces into my own training sessions
27:07
with teachers, I want those to be hands on, I
27:09
want them to be practice based. If they're engaging
27:12
with content, I want to give them like a would
27:14
you rather read this blog or listen to this podcast,
27:18
read this blog or watch this video, right? How
27:21
do you want to interact with information? Or
27:24
if I want everybody to watch a video on a topic,
27:27
like maybe I'm trying to help them understand,
27:29
like, what is an AI video look like? So I'm gonna
27:32
actually take something that I would present
27:34
normally myself, have AI create a video, and
27:37
I'm gonna actually have you work in groups to
27:40
use reciprocal teaching, to unpack the video,
27:42
pausing it every two minutes. So I want them
27:45
to have those experiences. And the reason is
27:49
I think the more they experience in training,
27:52
the more likely they are to actually implement,
27:54
and we get over that implementation gap. But
27:56
I also... Totally recognize that at the end of
28:00
one of my training days teachers are like I'm
28:03
so tired like you made us work so hard and I'm
28:06
like Just my like my TED talk was all about student
28:10
-led learning and when I design learning It doesn't
28:12
matter who the audience is teachers leaders grad
28:16
students. I want it to be student -led I'm push
28:19
I'm putting you in the position to drive this
28:22
experience and you are gonna get as much out
28:24
of it as you put in So I think a good example
28:28
would you rather listen to the integrate this
28:32
podcast or Watch the integrate this podcast on
28:35
exactly right exactly your only two choices So
28:41
you station rotation, you know, you've written
28:43
a book on it. You've mentioned it here several
28:45
times already. Like, what exactly do you mean?
28:48
What does that look like in practice? And why
28:51
is that a good entry point for teachers into
28:54
designing learning that's going to be beneficial
28:56
to all learners? Yeah, that's a great question.
29:01
A station rotation model is by far the most popular
29:05
blended learning model of the rotation models.
29:08
So blended learning is like a pretty big spectrum.
29:10
And over on one side are the rotation models.
29:13
And that includes station rotation, the playlist
29:16
model, whole group rotation, flip classroom.
29:19
These are all strategies or models, instructional
29:21
approaches that work beautifully in a traditional
29:24
classroom. And so that's where I tend to spend
29:27
probably like 80 % of my time when it comes to
29:30
working with schools and districts who are interested
29:32
in blended learning. As you move down the spectrum,
29:36
then you get to instructional models that tend
29:40
to rely more and more on the online learning
29:42
component, right? So you have like the flex model
29:44
where kids are self -pacing through usually like
29:47
a pre -planned online curriculum. And you have
29:50
like all a cart where a kid taking normal classes
29:52
might do credit recovery for a class, or they
29:55
might be so advanced in a class. school doesn't
29:58
offer that they take an online class to complement
30:00
their traditional schedule. So there are lots
30:02
of different models on that end of the spectrum
30:04
that I don't spend as much time on. And I would
30:07
say even of the rotation models, there's just
30:09
something about station rotation that is like
30:14
understandable enough, like relatable enough
30:16
that teachers are like, okay, I get it. I'm going
30:20
to try it. I think there's there's two misconceptions
30:24
about station rotation. And first, the biggest
30:27
one is that this is an elementary model, right?
30:30
And I think that is really born out of this idea
30:33
that, you know, this is something they do in
30:36
elementary, not something we do in secondary.
30:38
And I think it's really a result of the fact
30:40
that secondary teachers have like an expertise
30:43
in some subject area. And so as the experts,
30:46
there's a lot more of I'm going to be at the
30:48
front of the room. I'm going to be explaining
30:49
things, lecturing, what have you. I also think
30:52
that when we start to talk about small groups,
30:55
there is this assumption that somehow this is
30:57
like an intervention thing, not a traditional
31:00
classroom thing. But the reality is station rotation
31:02
is a K -12 model and the biggest benefit, I believe,
31:08
of station rotation is the opportunity for teachers
31:11
to differentiate instruction for small groups.
31:14
So if we are collecting pre -assessment data
31:18
and the data tells us, whoa, kids are in really
31:21
different places of readiness in terms of or
31:24
in relation to this concept or skill, why would
31:27
we teach a whole group and then clean up the
31:30
mess in small group and double the time we spend
31:32
on that instruction, right? Why not start the
31:36
instruction differentiated in small groups so
31:38
we can make specific teacher moves at that small
31:42
group station with six to eight kids that is
31:45
going to hopefully make that instruction much
31:47
more accessible for learners. And then at the
31:50
other station, so there are three types of stations.
31:52
There's the teacher led and differentiation is
31:55
definitely whether it's instruction, modeling
31:57
sessions, what you that's like the biggest benefit.
32:01
Then you have an online station or stations and
32:04
offline station or station. So right in the design
32:07
is that nod to balance, right? We're not having
32:10
kids at every screen at every station. They're
32:12
getting instruction with the teacher. They have
32:14
an online station at an offline station. The
32:17
total number of stations totally depends on the
32:19
length of your class period or how many days
32:21
you're running the rotation or how many kids
32:23
you want in a station. So I think it's a pretty
32:27
simple design to understand. I think the biggest
32:32
resistance, if I'm being quite honest with you,
32:35
against this model is one, like teachers who
32:39
are scared of the classroom management component,
32:42
right? So if you, your method of classroom management
32:45
is I control kids by having them in a group and
32:49
kind of. making them comply with what I'm asking
32:52
them to do, then releasing more control over
32:56
students by having them in the other stations
32:58
where they have to be a bit more self -directed
33:00
or they have to collaborate with peers to navigate
33:03
a task, that becomes very, very scary for some
33:06
teachers. And I will say the transition from
33:09
whole group, one lesson for the entire class,
33:12
which is often not accessible, definitely not
33:15
equitable, often not inclusive, to station rotation
33:19
where you are designing differentiated instructional
33:22
sessions and designing online and offline tasks,
33:25
that feels like a big ask in terms of the time
33:29
it takes to design. I will say AI has really
33:32
made that so much more doable because I love
33:36
the design part of this work. I'm like a total
33:38
curriculum design dork. Like I just think it's
33:41
so fascinating, like a little puzzle of like,
33:43
how do we create something for this particular
33:45
group of students to learn this particular thing?
33:47
But I get that that's not the necessarily the
33:49
norm. However, I think if we truly value like
33:54
equity, inclusion, access, then we have to take
33:57
a good look at our practices and ask, do our
34:00
instructional practices align with our values?
34:03
And I think station rotation is a really beautiful
34:05
pathway to do that. Yeah, you mentioned a couple
34:09
of the things that popped into my head as my
34:12
maybe misconceptions or fears about them. Number
34:14
one was it's an elementary thing. And I think
34:19
you you hammered home the reasons why it's not
34:21
I think very effectively and I think the other
34:23
piece that you talked about was classroom management
34:26
and you know I to me yeah I know as a as a new
34:30
teacher I definitely would have would have struggled
34:33
with some of that but at some point that when
34:35
I hit my stride or whatever and I felt more comfortable
34:39
with the students that were in my class and I
34:43
was able to kind of turn over some of that and
34:49
me not having to look over their shoulder 24
34:51
seven in the classroom. And when I was able to
34:54
do that to give up, I think a little bit of that
34:56
control and combine that with establishing some
35:01
routines of what are the expectations when you're
35:05
gonna be working in that station that is, you
35:09
know, non teacher directed and not. interacting
35:13
with other students where you're going to be
35:14
dealing with the online stuff. And then what
35:16
are your expectations when you're having a discussion
35:19
group with with your peers? You know, and I think
35:22
kind of establishing some of those routines can
35:25
definitely make it even more worthwhile and beneficial
35:28
in the long run. Well, and why would we start
35:31
something new without establishing those expectations?
35:34
Right. Like, that's the piece that gets skipped
35:36
over that I don't understand, because I'm like.
35:39
Talk to your class, like, co -create norms for
35:43
station rotation lessons. What are we going to
35:45
agree to as a group that we think is going to
35:48
help this run really smoothly? And what are we
35:49
going to try to avoid? Because it might actually
35:51
derail this lesson a little bit or distract the
35:53
teacher. And teachers, like, tell them why you're
35:56
doing this. You want to support small groups.
35:58
You want to be able to meet their specific needs.
36:01
also have a clear path of consequences, right?
36:05
I think one of the biggest issues with power
36:08
struggles I see in classrooms are teachers who
36:10
also haven't like outlined, hey, if you distract
36:13
me or you are clearly off task. This is the first
36:16
thing you can expect. Maybe it's a verbal redirect.
36:19
If that's good, great. If it's not, then you're
36:21
gonna have a physical move to a floater desk
36:23
on the side of the room where you're working
36:25
by yourself. Happens three times, we're getting
36:27
a parent or a family member on the phone and
36:29
we're gonna talk about what's going on with you
36:30
in here, right? And then that way they always
36:32
know what to expect because consistency builds
36:36
trust. It's when teachers act different on. a
36:40
friday when they're tired and exhausted versus
36:43
a monday when they're caffeinated and feeling
36:45
rested that students are like i don't know what
36:47
to expect i can't even make an informed decision
36:50
about my behavior because the teacher always
36:52
responds kind of differently so it's like yeah
36:54
put those very basic guardrails in place before
36:58
you try a station rotation but i can tell you
37:00
i only taught at the secondary level and i use
37:02
station rotation all the time and it was literally
37:05
magical to be able to be like huh Kids have this
37:09
particular need. I want to be able to work with
37:12
them. And instead of thinking, can you come in
37:14
at lunch? Can you stay in a break? Do you have
37:16
to race out after school? When could I possibly
37:18
meet your specific need? Now I have an instructional
37:21
model where I can design to meet those needs.
37:25
So when you're when you're designing your station
37:28
and your station groups. Is it always best to
37:31
ability group them or are there reasons why you
37:34
would do it in an interest area or let students
37:37
self -select? A hundred percent. Flexible grouping,
37:42
that is the key phrase, right? I really worry
37:46
about, and often when teachers are first trying
37:48
stationary rotation, they're doing it for that
37:50
ability to differentiate. And so their go -to
37:53
is skill level groupings or readiness level groupings,
37:55
which I totally understand. But if we always
37:58
put students in ability level groupings, I personally
38:02
worry about what that does to their confidence
38:05
in themselves as a learner. That growth mindset
38:09
of I can keep improving with practice. and support
38:11
and all these things. I also like, I just worry
38:15
it makes some of the other tasks that they might
38:17
do at another station on their own more challenging
38:20
if they're in skill level groupings, right? Often
38:23
high level groups, you got a lot of like bulldozers.
38:26
I am one of those people who take over and they
38:29
don't work very well together. Then you get the
38:31
lower level kiddos who might be feeling like
38:33
they wish they had a little more peer support
38:35
with some of those bulldozers. And so, Lots of
38:39
reasons why we should just be flexible in our
38:42
groupings. And when I work and train teachers,
38:45
when we talk about the teacher -led station and
38:47
the ways in which we can structure instruction
38:50
at that station, if you use a very clear instructional
38:55
strategy, like a gradual release or hook the
38:58
group or concept attainment, you can actually...
39:02
you see exactly where you can differentiate for
39:05
a mixed ability group. It doesn't have to be
39:08
a skill -based group for you to actually differentiate.
39:11
So, for example, if I'm running small groups
39:13
and it's mixed ability and I'm using an I do,
39:16
we do pairs, do progression, like that gradual
39:19
release, the I do, I'm carrying the cognitive
39:22
load. It's going to be the same for everybody
39:23
and it's not that big a deal. The we do, I can
39:26
even be subtle about what kinds of questions,
39:29
level of questioning I'm using with different
39:31
students. that group. And then when we get to
39:33
the Pairs do, strategically pairing students
39:36
at similar ability levels and asking them to
39:38
work on practice within their zone of possibility
39:42
is where the more kind of explicit differentiation
39:45
is happening. And then I can spend time with
39:48
a pairing who might be struggling a little bit
39:50
more and need more from me as the teacher. And
39:53
then sometimes to your point, it's interest -based
39:55
groups. Sometimes it's I like to think of like
39:57
strengths in a group dynamic, right? So if we
39:59
have one of the stations, they're working on
40:02
a STEM challenge together or something. I want
40:04
a nice kind of blend of personalities and abilities
40:06
in that group. So there's lots of different ways
40:09
to group kids and I would encourage teachers
40:11
just keep it flexible. And you touched on this
40:15
is a little bit just with the you know if you
40:17
have to check in with pairs or things like that
40:18
but what's what is the best method for checking
40:23
in with groups or conferencing with groups as
40:25
as you know you've released them and the stations
40:28
are kind of taking place what's the best ways
40:31
for checking in with various groups in the different
40:35
maybe there's different scenarios or things that
40:36
you maybe could bring up but what what would
40:39
you say is the best routine for that? Well, usually
40:42
the teacher is occupied at the teacher -led station
40:44
the entire time, unless they're using a strategy
40:48
that I call the empty station strategy. So, one
40:51
of the bigger, I think, design hiccups that secondary
40:54
teachers face, particularly in classes where
40:58
the curriculum is very linear like math, is the
41:01
lesson. starts with the teacher instruction and
41:04
then everything after it builds on that instruction.
41:07
So then teachers are like, how do I reimagine
41:10
my curriculum for a rotation where kids are starting
41:13
at all of these other stations and only one group
41:16
is starting with me? And so teachers who get
41:19
kind of hung up in that hiccup, I encourage them,
41:23
if you usually have three stations, if you can
41:25
add a fourth, great. So that there's a group
41:27
that starts with the teacher led. The next station
41:30
is what I call the application station, and it's
41:32
empty during the first rotation. So nobody starts
41:35
there because nobody's going to apply before
41:37
they've been to that teacher led station. Then
41:39
you have your online and your offline stations,
41:41
which are hopefully things like spiral review.
41:43
Maybe kids are working on collaborative work
41:45
or things that are not dependent on that teacher
41:47
led station. So the first rotation, the teacher
41:51
provides instruction. Then in rotation two, that
41:54
teacher led station group goes to the apply station
41:56
and now one of the other stations. is empty.
41:59
So when teachers use that to make space for more
42:04
of that linear, I'm going to teach you something
42:05
and then I want you to apply it, the final rotation
42:08
means that the teacher led station is empty and
42:11
the teacher can move around the room to check
42:14
in with students. So it might be observing students
42:17
at work and kind of documenting what were that
42:21
formative assessment data that we're collecting.
42:23
It might be just that we know we noted that in
42:26
an earlier lesson and students were struggling
42:28
with something, so we wanna go check in with
42:30
two students we're concerned about. So it's more
42:34
of like an organic at that point, moving around
42:36
the room, checking in, observing, documenting,
42:39
which is all really, really valuable. Now, there
42:43
are other instructional models, blended learning
42:46
models like playlist model, where we do much
42:49
more structured. conferencing, feedback sessions,
42:55
things like that that are actually built into
42:57
the instructional pathway so that when students
42:59
hit that moment and say a playlist, they pause
43:02
in their progress, they go meet with the teacher,
43:04
and the teacher basically looks at kind of the
43:07
work that's been done, has a conversation with
43:09
the student, and they can make adjustments to
43:11
the playlist as needed based on student performance.
43:14
So that allows that particular model, I feel
43:17
like allows for more of that kind of built -in
43:21
conferencing about progress. And so you brought
43:25
a playlist, so I want to touch on that a little
43:27
bit. What is the ultimate purpose of a playlist
43:30
and is there one design that works best or what
43:35
are some effective ones that you've seen? Yeah,
43:39
so the playlist model is like a self -paced learning
43:43
pathway. So, ideally, everything students need
43:47
is in the playlist, which means we're leaning
43:50
hard on video and other multimedia resources,
43:53
so students have on -demand instruction built
43:56
into the playlist. I still really want teachers
43:59
to have a really nice blend of online and offline
44:03
activities, so I don't want, again, kids staring
44:05
at the screen because everything in the playlist
44:07
is online. I want the playlist to push them offline
44:10
for, you know, pen paper tasks, discussions,
44:15
collaborative work. But within the playlist,
44:18
one of the things that they're really good for
44:21
anything that takes students a real significant
44:25
variable amount of time to complete. So for me
44:28
in my English class, you know, writing an essay.
44:31
Some students could sit down and write an essay
44:33
in a couple of sittings. Some students, it was
44:36
like a two -week slog to write an essay. And
44:40
so I remember deciding to use the playlist to
44:42
do things like create an argumentative essay
44:45
playlist. And it didn't mean that we worked on
44:48
that playlist nonstop over the course of five
44:50
days or something, but it meant that we might
44:53
work on it one class period. do something the
44:56
next period, go back to it the period after.
44:59
And what I really loved about it is it took a
45:01
lot. Now that one definitely took a lot of time
45:03
to design on the front end. And AI is so exciting
45:08
to use for it because it definitely helps to
45:10
kind of limit the amount of time it takes to
45:13
design one now. That time investment on the front
45:16
end allowed me in the classroom to conference
45:20
with students to give them real time feedback
45:22
as they were working. So they would hit these
45:25
like bars in the playlist because I just built
45:27
them in a Google doc. It was basically like a
45:29
two column doc. Here's what you're doing. Here's
45:32
where you capture your work. So you're the instructions
45:34
and links and everything they needed was on the
45:36
left hand side. All of the space for their work
45:39
was on the right hand side. And there would be
45:41
these like yellow bars that said Tucker time.
45:45
And they knew when they got to one of these yellow
45:46
bars, they had to pause and they had to come
45:49
meet with me. And so I would look at what they
45:51
had done so far. I would give them focused, actionable
45:53
feedback, ask them if they had questions, send
45:55
them on their way. So all of the time I used
45:58
to spend giving feedback and grading student
46:01
writing before the playlist became my go -to
46:04
approach for, you know, extended writing projects
46:07
was all of a sudden built into the classroom.
46:09
So I wasn't taking any of that home anymore.
46:12
And I was getting to sit one on one with kids
46:14
and have these conversations. It was like totally
46:16
magical. So one of the things too that has been
46:22
coming up a lot is in AI has been like this idea
46:26
of process over product and it seems like the
46:31
process aspect could actually fit really well
46:33
into the playlist model. One of the concerns
46:37
that obviously comes up in well with AI in general
46:40
but with with when you're letting go of the control
46:43
and that kind of thing and you're letting students
46:45
do the self -pacing how what kind of guardrails
46:49
do you think we should have in place to still
46:51
allow for student choice but with respect to
46:55
okay well they can use ai for these things but
46:58
with the with the process over product conversation
47:00
and jeremy i have talked with others about this
47:03
is that you're actually building in the ai use
47:06
in a in a designed way and saying you can use
47:10
it for these scenarios not for these scenarios
47:12
and that kind of thing so as you look at that
47:15
conversation with ai And with the playlist model
47:20
and that, what do you think can help with some
47:23
of the guardrails for teachers, especially those
47:25
that are concerned, have significant concerns
47:27
about releasing their students to AI? Yeah, I
47:31
think we have to be explicit, teaching them to
47:35
your point. What's okay in terms of AI use for
47:39
different assignments, right? How much, what
47:42
role should AI play in the work that they're
47:45
doing, right? And they need to be able to cite,
47:50
attribute the work that they basically might
47:53
have co -authored or worked on together with
47:55
AI. I think sometimes we almost treat AI use
48:00
as like, let's just not talk. talk about it and
48:03
let's hope they're not using it. And I'm just
48:05
like, no, let's be let's have the conversation.
48:08
Here's a what AI does. Well, here's what you
48:11
know, it doesn't do so well. Here's the places
48:14
where we're going to use it in this class. And,
48:16
you know, I've even seen like I've chatted with
48:18
Matt Miller around like, hey, maybe we just have
48:20
like icons next to assignments that basically
48:23
align with like, this is the level of AI you're
48:26
allowed to use in this assignment. And maybe
48:29
if you use AI, I want you to be able to explain
48:32
what you learned, how it impacted your work,
48:35
how you kept the thinking your own. I also think
48:38
students need training around prompting if they're
48:43
using AI, right? Like, what kinds of questions?
48:46
If the goal is feedback, and you're working in
48:50
an AI space, what kinds of questions should you
48:52
be asking? What do those sound like? Like, even
48:55
scaffolding it with question stems that students
48:57
can use and lean on. I think we have to remember
49:01
that this is a skill like any other skill, and
49:03
we have to be explicit about teaching it and
49:06
setting expectations. We have to model, and we
49:09
have to be thinking about what supports in scaffolding.
49:11
are going to help students be successful, right?
49:14
This is just going to be part of their lives
49:17
and it's going to increasingly be something we
49:20
have to weave into our classroom. And that's
49:23
not just using it. It's really the whole skill
49:27
set that students need to use it. So Kevin we
49:31
we've talked I think about a lot of different
49:33
things here in the in the past 50 minutes or
49:36
so that that time is just really really flown
49:37
by But I want to kind of get us around to hear
49:41
some valuable takeaways that both teachers and
49:45
leaders or coaches could Start implementing here
49:48
like right away. So as we think about it from
49:50
like the teacher lens What's one small high -impact
49:54
move that you would recommend? That a teacher
49:57
try and I'm going to say because we're recording
49:59
this it's very near the end of the school year
50:02
but you know when they come back into that classroom
50:05
and maybe it's something that they've given a
50:08
little bit of thought to as they're preparing
50:10
for that next school year and they want to hit
50:12
the ground you know running and being successful
50:15
from the get -go. Yeah, I mean, we've already
50:18
talked about the would you rather and starting
50:20
to be intentional about identifying where might
50:24
there be a potential barrier that a would you
50:27
rather would give students some agency around
50:29
deciding how they want to complete a particular
50:31
task. I also think our earlier conversation about
50:35
reflection and where are those places that we
50:38
can build in a pause. It doesn't have to be more
50:40
than five minutes, but maybe it is that pause
50:44
that follows instruction for kids to collect
50:46
their thoughts. or to your point at the end of
50:48
a lesson where we're asking them to kind of think
50:50
about what they learned and kind of condense
50:52
it for themselves or like, you know, capture
50:54
it. Or maybe it is that that pause before and
50:56
after AI use for that reflective practice. I
50:59
think both of those are so simple, like initial
51:02
moves that can have a huge impact. So putting
51:05
that, you know, that teacher pause time like,
51:09
well, students are thinking and allow that for
51:12
yourself as well. Now think of it from maybe
51:17
the like a building administrator or an instructional
51:21
coach sort of lens here. What sort of conditions
51:24
would you want to create for that start of the
51:26
school year so that teachers are able to feel
51:30
supported in doing some of the deep work that
51:33
they need to and maybe even you know feeling
51:36
empowered to add AI into helping them develop
51:41
some of the the things that they're working on.
51:44
Yeah, I mean, one, and this is way easier said
51:49
than done, but like create a culture on your
51:52
campus of experimentation. and celebration, right?
51:57
So maybe it's a staff meeting where you ask teachers,
52:00
so you give them five minutes to share something
52:03
that they did that either worked or didn't work,
52:05
and what did they learn from it, right? I would
52:08
love to see more, like let's tap into the incredible
52:12
professionals on our campus who are trying things,
52:14
and whether those things work or not, what are
52:16
they learning from them that might be valuable
52:18
to the rest of the staff? Second, just from a
52:22
leadership perspective, given the conversation
52:25
about screen time, instead of a knee -jerk response
52:28
to whatever your stance is on tech in classrooms
52:31
and screen time, start thinking about how you
52:34
might facilitate an audit using coaches, using
52:38
teachers with a self -assessment, or even putting
52:40
PLCs on it to start thinking about how are we
52:43
actually using screens? What is the impact? Is
52:46
it improving learning? Start to have those conversations.
52:50
to figure out what's the system in place for
52:52
supporting those. Yeah, I think that's great.
52:59
And I think it gives, you know, people a chance
53:02
to kind of reflect where they're at at the end
53:04
of the school year, like you talked about a little
53:06
bit earlier, and also to start to make plans
53:10
to either develop help to develop that culture.
53:12
So when teachers come back or just be that teacher
53:16
and ready to add, you know, would you rather
53:20
into into their mode of teaching. So we're kind
53:24
of reaching the end of our time here. And David
53:27
and I like to end with a lightning round activity.
53:30
So I know you've had a chance to look at some
53:32
of the questions that are there and we'll start
53:36
out alternating them going through. You're free
53:40
to give just a short response or if you need
53:43
to elaborate to explain yourself, you know, you
53:45
know, the time for you is there. But I think
53:49
David, you're going to kick us off with the first
53:50
one. Yeah. So we actually had a little bit of
53:54
a long weekend here. But what's what's a song
53:57
or artist that never fails to reset your mood
54:00
after a long week? I know this is controversial,
54:03
but it is Taylor Swift, who literally has an
54:06
album for every single mood I might be in. I
54:12
should have a closet Swifty myself. So I am loud
54:16
and proud. I get it. What's your go to comfort
54:22
food after a long work week? Mexican is for sure
54:26
my favorite comfort food, specifically vegetarian
54:29
burritos with lots of guacamole. All right. If
54:34
you could take a one week learning trip anywhere,
54:37
not not work related, but a one week learning
54:40
trip. Where are you going and what are you learning
54:42
about? New Zealand, although that feels like
54:45
a very far way to go for one week, but there's
54:48
some really well, first of all, it's beautiful.
54:50
I'd love to be there. And there was some really
54:52
early research done in the field of blended learning
54:55
that came out of New Zealand. So I just love
54:58
to go like pick brains of researchers who did
55:01
a lot of the work around blended learning. And
55:04
that's your non work related trip. I get it.
55:07
I don't think I take a trip where I'm not doing
55:10
it. I'm either like writing or whatever. I love
55:14
my work, so I tend to do it everywhere. That's
55:17
awesome. That's when you know you've got that
55:19
passion, right? Yes, yes. What's something that
55:23
most people would be surprised to learn about
55:24
you? Oh, I am really afraid of heights. So no
55:31
mountains in I get well I climb Table Mountain
55:34
in Cape Town But I don't want to get real close
55:36
to the edge because my fingers start to tangle
55:38
like even watching somebody else at the edge
55:40
my fingers start to tangle Okay, what's a book
55:46
movie or show that that you love right now? Oh,
55:49
I love TJ Clune's The House in the Cerulean Sea,
55:53
and now I am reading the follow up, which is
55:55
called Somewhere Beyond the Sea. It's just like
55:58
the sweetest stories. I love them. So if David
56:03
and I were planning a conference and you were
56:05
gonna be our keynote speaker and you know It's
56:08
that moment where you're gonna be coming from
56:10
backstage and out in front of the entire audience
56:14
What sort of walk -up song do you want playing
56:16
for you as as you're getting ready to face the
56:19
crowd? I did have to think about this one, but
56:21
I'm gonna go with high hopes from panic at the
56:24
disco So I have very high hopes for education
56:28
everybody Nice. Okay, and so this is our last
56:33
one. This is there is just either or rapid fire.
56:36
So Are you a notebook and paper person still
56:40
or a notes app? notebook and paper Okay, and
56:45
then while traveling podcasts or music music
56:48
Okay Mountains or beach beach All right. We're
56:54
increasing our beach people. We get a lot of
56:57
mountain responses, so Text or call? Text. Okay.
57:04
Early bird or night owl? Early bird. First to
57:09
leave the party or last to stay? First to leave.
57:14
Okay. And then big group hangout or one on one
57:17
time? One on one time. All right. Cool. Well,
57:22
that concludes our lightning round in this or
57:25
that sections. We just want to give you a chance
57:28
to also if there's anything that you have that's
57:32
coming up that you want to plug talks and conferences,
57:36
all that type of things. The books. Is there
57:37
anything that you want to mention there to the
57:40
listeners? I mean, my most recent book for anybody
57:43
who's like kind of their antenna was. Dinging
57:49
or their interest was piqued is the station rotation
57:51
model and udl and I am currently in the middle
57:54
of another book project But that one won't be
57:56
out until next spring, but it's on multi -tiered
57:59
systems of support tier one and tier two for
58:01
classroom teachers Awesome. Sounds good. And
58:05
we'll be sure to get in the show notes. You can
58:08
access Catlin's work the website books all that
58:11
kind of thing in there so Thank you for joining
58:15
us. We appreciate your time and all the insights
58:17
that you provided. So thanks for joining us.
58:20
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you guys for having me.
58:23
Thanks for listening to Integrate This. Want
58:26
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58:28
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58:32
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58:35
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58:45
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58:49
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