Latest / Self-Schooled / How to Protect Your Child’s Intrinsic Motivation with Dr. Gina Riley
Transcript
- Heather DiNino (she/they): Welcome to Self-Schooled, a podcast where we explore how to understand our children and ourselves more clearly. I'm Heather, parent, educator, and micro school founder. And every week we talk to someone who gives us a different lens for understanding what it means to be human and parent other humans. Because the more we understand, the more connected we feel to the people who matter most. And the more confidently we can parent and find our family's own path. This is the education that actually matters. Let's dive in together. I am so excited to have Gina Riley here today on the podcast. I recently met Gina at the Arrow Conference in New Hampshire. And she gave one of the most inspiring keynotes I've listened to ever. And I told her that after. As a former public school special ed teacher, I've been to lots of conferences that don't fully land for me. So Gina had me on the edge of my seat talking about intrinsic motivation, like a soul sister. And I was so I was so glad to meet her and to listen to her. So I'm so glad to have her on the podcast today. So Gina is an educational psychologist and a professor at Hunter College, where she also leads the adolescent and all grades special education program. She serves as faculty director of ACERT, which is Hunter's Academic Center for Excellence in Research and Teaching. Gina has conducted significant research on homeschooling, unschooling, self-directed learning, and intrinsic motivation. She has written dozens of academic articles and three books on these topics. And she currently serves as president of the New York State Association of Teacher. Educators. Gina, you have done so much. And one of my favorite things about your story, too, is that you raised your own son as an unschooler and as a single mom. And his first day of school was his first day of college. So he's now Dr. Gina Riley: It's true. Heather DiNino (she/they): grown. he's a grown unschooler, and I'm just welcome, Gina. I'm so glad you're here. It's so fine, that's such a kind introduction. Dr. Gina Riley: That's so kind. That's such a kind introduction. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much. Heather DiNino (she/they): So before we jump into all the incredible professional things that you've done and the wisdom that you can share, I'd love as a fellow parent, I'd love to just hear kind of how your journey with your son started. Like how when you became a parent, did you find education first and then parenting or parenting first and then education or same time? Like what was that like for you? Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah, it's so interesting. So I think I learned about intrinsic motivation in undergrad. And you have to understand that I was a teen mom, so I had a baby in undergrad. And I remember thinking, like, this is how I want to live my life. This is how I want my child to live their lives. And so I wasn't thinking about school when I was thinking about all of this, right? I I had a baby and I was thinking about finishing undergrad. so Heather DiNino (she/they): And maybe just getting through the day. Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah, and and possibly it it felt easy at the time, and that's a whole other story, right? Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. Dr. Gina Riley: so I went through my bachelor's, I went through my master's, I ended up studying homeschoolers and intrinsic motivation in my master's degree. And the title of my thesis was something like an ethnographic study of intrinsic motivation in homeschoolers. And at the time, like you have no idea like that that's gonna like start your educational journey or how groundbreaking that was. but I interviewed a bunch of homeschoolers. I asked them about intrinsic motivation, specifically utilizing DC and Ryan's self-determination theory. And and I started thinking about my own life and my own parenthood journey and what next steps were for my son. So we only planned to, or I really, right? And I I include him in this conversation because he really was in this conversation. I only plan to homeschool in kindergarten. kindergarten was not mandatory in New York State. It didn't seem like a big lift. I don't think anyone would have been shocked. They were, but we only they were like so shocked. we only plan to homeschool kindergarten. And then I think in my head it was like, well, we'll we'll one year at a time, one day at a time, we'll make the decisions that we make when we come to it. And every year, despite But criticism and despite people being surprised, and bes despite I tell the example of like the school bus not coming on the first day of school, and everyone's like, Wait, what? Like, what's happening here? he ended up choosing it every year. And I think that's to all of our surprise, right? There was a little bit of like middle school sort of like, What am I missing out on? What does that look like? And so we explored a lot of school options, and again, every year. He was just like, yeah, let's do this again. Right. and so we ended up doing it again and again. I was working, going to school, parenting all at the same time. and yeah, we we did it until his first year of college. And so his first day of school was his first day of college, except for like after school programming and things like that. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. Gosh, there's so much to unpack there because Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): as a parent, we I feel like I mean we we criticize we tend to criticize ourselves too, but then to be getting it externally is really hard. I love that you're talking about making the decision together. You're involving him, right? This is not just you unilaterally saying, like, we are unschooling, you are not going to school. This is like a collaboration, which is so much what unschooling really at its roots is supposed to be. Like collaborative and consensual and all of these things, right? But you said something I have to ask more about, because this is what had my jaw dropping, and I was like, she's speaking right to my heart, right? Self-determination theory. Okay, so for this is this is super researched. This is not just like someone had an idea and like thinks that this is use useful. Like this is actually really well researched theory. Can you talk a little bit about SDT for someone who maybe has never even heard that before? Dr. Gina Riley: Sure. So I'll talk about two things. I'll talk about self-determination theory and then I'll talk about the sub-theory, cognitive evaluation theory. so when I first learned about self-determination theory, this was through again Edward DC, who just recently passed away, Richard Ryan's work, 1985. It was just this groundbreaking sort of definition of intrinsic motivation centering on love, joy, curiosity. Right. And that to me, even was just like. Yes, like this is what we all need more of in our world. This is how I want to live my life, right? And so, to me, it literally became the defining theory of my life, right? Ever since then, all of my academic work has been based on it. I owe my entire academic life to Edward DC and Richard Ryan. There is no other two people I I owe that life to, right? So this definition was so so it felt so strong to me, right? Doing things because you loved them, because you felt joyful while doing them, because you were curious, because you were passionate about it. Right. So they defined intrinsic motivation. Then they defined as a sub-theory, this cognitive evaluation theory or CET. And they said, listen, like you can't facilitate. Intrinsic motivation in others, because that would be extrinsic. So, you know, let's think about environmental and social tenets that really facilitate intrinsic motivation. And so they came up with, again, cognitive evaluation theory, right? This is how brilliant they are. And they came up with the three tenets that facilitate intrinsic motivation in ourselves, but also in others. And it's competence, right? A sense of competence. A sense of autonomy and a sense of relatedness. Heather DiNino (she/they): Mm. Dr. Gina Riley: It's like the secret to life, right? It's like the secret to life. It's like the secret to teaching. It's like the secret to parenting. It's like they have all the secrets and all the knowledge. So, like if an audience hasn't read self-determination theory or cognitive evaluation theory, it's just it's incredible. And it has literally defined my entire life. Heather DiNino (she/they): And you know, giving some credit where credit is due, right? When we have these mentors, they are truly life-changing. And so I always Dr. Gina Riley: Life changing. Heather DiNino (she/they): say that I could never be doing any of the work I'm doing without these people that have come before, right? And sometimes people think what we're doing or saying is like new and groundbreaking and and I hope something of it is, I hope something I say is new, right? But it's always like layered with these incredible people that have come before us. And then when One of our mentors passes, it's like, you know, it's it's a personal loss, a professional loss. Like our work is really heartfelt. So I I Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): feel that for you. That must have been Dr. Gina Riley: What does our work look like, right? And and thankfully you like we have Richard Ryan and he's there and continuing the work and everyone at self-determination theory, which is incredible. but yeah, it's it's those people, right, that make such a huge difference and that we base all of our work on. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah, and how one thing can unlock so much for you, right? So competence, autonomy, relatedness, right? Can you talk Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): about how like when a when a child, whether at home or at school or in any setting, when those three things are met, what could that look like? What does that feel like? Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah, I mean I think right, like when when we think of competence, and I'm I'm putting it in the perspective of unschooling, but also just just learning, right? We think of like kids feeling like they have knowledge of a topic, kids feeling like they have a strength there, kids being able to like explain it to others, right? It's like that true sense of it's almost confidence. I know what I'm doing here. And that's really exciting. And then when we talk about autonomy in terms of learning, we talk about right freedom and choice, freedom of subject, freedom of topic, freedom of like this is what I want to learn when. One of the magic of unschooling and any sort of like free schooling or self-directed learning is that there is choice in the time, space, and place in which we learn. and that I mean it's huge, right? Like the choice in the freedom is huge. And then the third one I love because it puts the two together, right? And that's a sense of relatedness. And if you look in the literature about relatedness, you know, it's not about a whole bunch of people. It's like one person that believes in you no matter what, right? So they can be there when you fail, and they could be there when you succeed, and they could cheer you on whenever. and that sense of relatedness allows you to have a deeper sense of competence and autonomy, right? Because someone is saying, yeah, that's fantastic, right? Amazing with regards to your strengths. And my gosh, yes, you can do this at whatever time you want to do this. and if you fail, great, because you learn from it. And if you succeed, amazing because you also learn from that. And so that competence, autonomy, and relatedness is really the magic of learning. It's it's really it's really facilitates that that deep love and passion and allowance to do what we're meant to do. Heather DiNino (she/they): Freedom. It's like an exhale. Right? Like it just feels Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah, it's like hoo. Heather DiNino (she/they): like a like like yeah, I have permission Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): to be joyful. I have permission to to enjoy what I'm what I'm doing. I mean, when we spoke recently, you know, you're starting your semester soon. You're having your last moments of freedom. And I know that many teachers are like, you know, Sunday scaries times a million and they're dreading going back to work. And you're like, I love what I do. I'm ready. bring it on, like, I'm ready. I love Dr. Gina Riley: I'm happiest here. Heather DiNino (she/they): it. And and I'm the same way. I'm I love, I truly, truly love what I do. And that to me was one of the deal breakers for my kids. If anything is ever gonna push them into a box that does not allow them to to have that cure to maintain that curiosity because kids are born curious. We know that, right? but if anything is gonna be, you know, Take them out of that that space and not that every moment is fun. I love that you brought up failure. Like failure is super important too. But it it was really important to me as a parent that my kids could feel joy and curiosity. So that's that's really incredible and really important. how have you seen this show up in in unschooling your son, in parenting? Like how did this knowledge of self-determination theory or intrinsic motivation, any of this, how did you see that in your son? Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah, I I really think it just it that was the framework for our lives, right? And so I think as a parent, it's also important to remember that your kids don't always become competent at the things that you want them to become competent at at the time, right? So I constantly tell the story of like video gaming, right? There were like a few years there, there were a few hard years where video gaming was a thing, right? Like Microsoft Wii Golf. I could watch the golf swing. And In those times I was sort of like, I don't know about this, right? Like when when I'm talking about confidence, autonomy, and relatedness, right? I'm not talking about like video game golf and or regular golf, right? But here we are at the golf course a lot. And here we are on this video game, right? same thing with it's it's interesting, right? He was really into bowling, and and I tell the story of like, I didn't really love bowling alleys, but here I am, right? And I think that's an important lesson because you also want this person to become their own person with, you know, all of the curiosities and interests that they have. And it takes time to become your own person. I think intrinsic motivation also made him fall in love with the guitar. so he went to school, his bachelor's is in classical guitar and his master's is in music theory. he's now an you know, a he's an editor at a large academic. Publishing firm and manages medical journals, right? And he's also a a part-time music educator, but his full-time gig is really like an editor for academic journals. And when you ask him, like, how'd you get there? Right. And he's like, I was seeped in academia my whole life because he used to come to my undergrad courses. He used to come to my grad courses. You know, college and university was all he knows. He knows how to speak to professors, he knows how to, you know, do what he needs to do. To succeed in the field. So it's really, really interesting. I think that competence, autonomy, and relatedness allows people to come into their own, which is all you could ever ask for. Right. You just want your kids to be like healthy and happy and come into their own and have their own strengths and interests and competences, even if those things are different from what we imagined or what we could think about. I think that's really important, right? People need to be their own people. Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. They are their own people. They are their own little people, right? And and I think that's a really important distinction because I think we have a of an image of of what we're gonna be like as a parent, maybe before we become a parent, or an image of what our kids maybe are gonna be like. And I always say our kids are our greatest teachers because they come into the world and they're like, Nope, you thought you knew, but you you have no idea. Right? We don't know. And so Dr. Gina Riley: No anything. Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): I I think there's a really curious way that we can parent, you know, like What what are you gonna unfold to be? Like, what is this? And that's what I love so much about unschooling and intrinsic motivation is really this like curiosity. It's it feels really freeing to be like, I wonder what you're gonna, I wonder what you're gonna be. There's no better way to love someone than to wonder, right? Including ourselves. Like it's been a journey for me as an adult as well. To be like, wait, I I also want joy and curiosity. Right. I also want intrinsic motivation. Gina, my last question is what if a parent is listening to this and they're like, okay, this sounds great. I love all this I love all this conversation. How do I actually implement this? Like how do I actually use this in my parenting? Is there anything you can think of that they could look for? Is it a mindset shift? Is it something that they're gonna like do at dinner or at bedtime tonight? Like how do we bring SDT and intrinsic motivation and and any of this into their house? Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah, if you're not already thinking about it, it is a shift. it's a huge shift, right? Going from extrinsic motivation to intrinsic motivation is a it's a huge shift, right? I think just knowing about what intrinsic motivation is and recognizing it in your life, does does the concept even align with your values, right? Or your the way you want to parent? And if it doesn't, it doesn't have to, right? You do you. I think the the cognitive evaluation theory, competence, autonomy, and relatedness is really, really strong. It's something you can repeat every morning. It can become a mantra, right? How do I see my son or daughter or whoever be confident? And how do I see that learner in front of me exert freedom and choice in their everyday? And how do I see this person How do I see the relatedness? How do I feel the relatedness? So, so just thinking about it, I think is a big, huge step. But again, it has to align to value, right? It has to align to what you value. it's not just something you you wake up in the morning and you say, great, I'm gonna be intrinsically motivated, right? Because that in and of itself is extrinsic, right? So it really does have to like, you have to find it attractive and it has to be aligned to your values as a parent or as an educator. And then you go from there and you take baby steps, right? And you also like, right, like I think the opening of minds and opening of hearts is really important. sometimes we're so like, it has to be this way or it has to be that way. And I think probably the older I get, I see that it doesn't have to be any way. It can just be the way people want, right? Because you have one precious life. and so it's really important to live that life in the way that aligns with your values and in a little Way that aligns with the way you want it to be. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah, and if it doesn't align, keep moving. There's something else that does. We can't Dr. Gina Riley: Just keep moving. Yeah. Yeah, until you've Heather DiNino (she/they): we can't make everything align. We're not supposed to. And it's so much stress and pressure as parents and as educators. We both Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): fall under this category of like feeling like we need to do all the things, you know? And the purpose of this podcast, especially the premise is to get to know your children better. And in that we get to To know ourselves better. and that means saying no to a lot of things, hopefully, right? Like a lot of things won't align for you and a lot of things won't resonate or feel like that's gonna be a life changer for your kids or your family. But for the ones that are, right? Like you came across this work that completely shifted your family, your work, professional, personal, on all the levels. Well, thank goodness for that. But there are other things that you probably said, no, that doesn't really feel quite right. Right? Like for me, it was behaviorism never felt quite right. Well, that's worked for tons of people. For me, just never felt quite right. I was good at it, just didn't feel like that aligned. Right. So we're always, I think as parents and educators, my invitation is always to say, really tune in and feel a a yes or a no and like follow that, follow that. Gut that we have. Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah. Yeah. And know what you and know strongly what you believe in and what, you know, your values are. If you have a mission statement for your family or for your own life, amazing. That's helpful to define values. but really knowing, right? Like we we often don't give ourselves credit for how well we know ourselves. and so we wanna, you know, we wanna do that. We wanna facilitate that in in our learner as well. Heather DiNino (she/they): How important is it for kids to learn themselves? Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah, my gosh, right? Like these are people who grow, right? It's like I, you know, I always think kids know themselves probably the best, right? Like I'm that is my constant that kids probably know themselves the best. And then they kind of like grow up and all of these things happen and they maybe lose themselves along the way, and then they find themselves back, right? the people who are always like, if you don't know what to do. What you want to do in your life, like go back to when you're five and think about what you wanted to be when you were five, right? Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Gina Riley: That doesn't have to be the defining thing, but it gives you a hint as to like what kind of person am I. Sometimes my son and I will look at each other and he's like he watched me grow up and I watched him grow up, right? And he'll he'll say a lot, like we're really the same people. that we were when I was five and you were, you know, not so old. And that's really true. I was like 23, right? Like we're really the same people. and so it it's nice to have that sort of knowledge and wisdom and to dig deep into that. Heather DiNino (she/they): Do you think that unschooling had a a deep impact on it sounds like you two have such a close relationship still. Do you think do you think that had an impact on your relationship growing and do you think it had an impact on his own identity, growth or like knowing of himself? Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah, I think that time was probably, and I don't want to speak to him for him, but I think that time was probably our our biggest gift, right? We all know how precious that time was. I'll never have time like that with him again. and I surely know that. And that was just super precious. And we both always acknowledge how super precious that time was. yeah, it's it's the best thing I'll ever do in my life. and I know that, right? And he's turned into this incredible human being. and yeah, I mean it's the time, it's that precious time, it's that those memories together, which really are yeah, they're really, really beautiful, right? And they Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. Dr. Gina Riley: leave a a legacy. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah, they always say, and I think I even said this to you the other day, you don't get that time back, right? And you don't get to rewind it, but you do get to remember it. So it's it's really beautiful that you have those memories of that time. Right? You don't get the time Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Heather DiNino (she/they): back, but you have that it's still there in memories. Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): and I know we're all taking a million pictures and then we don't tend to look at them always, but it's like, go back and look at the pictures. Go back and hear the little voice. Yes. Their mannerisms. Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah. Look at the pictures, like play back the video, right? Like hear the little voices. Yeah. And again, like, yeah. I was again, I was a single mom when he was little. So I don't have that video, right? Because I didn't have access. And I don't I don't have that like the little voice that I wish I remembered, right? Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. Dr. Gina Riley: And sometimes. but it's it's so cool to think about. So yeah, look at those pictures and remember those voices, right? It's Mary Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. Dr. Gina Riley: Oliver. We have that one precious life. Like, let's go live that Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. Dr. Gina Riley: one precious life. in the way that we can, right, with with the the little human beings that we have been entrusted with. Heather DiNino (she/they): Right. And the little human beings that we used to be. Like we are in our right? We we grew like we were that too. Right. Right. Dr. Gina Riley: Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You'll only be this w one time in your life, right? And that's yeah, take it and like right. Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): Gina, thank you so much for this conversation. Self-determination theory and just everything, intrinsic motivation. I'm so grateful for you. So thank you for being on the show. Thank you for being here. I'm so grateful for the time. Dr. Gina Riley: You're so kind. I'm so grateful for the time. I'm so excited for you and your show. and thank you. Thanks for the time. It's been wonderful. Heather DiNino (she/they): If people want to find you, I will have some links below on things that they can find your website and things like that. And if people want to find you or talk more or dive more into self-determination theory, what do you recommend for them? Dr. Gina Riley: Yeah, so I think I I gave you my email and you can certainly spread that around website as well. I'll have a second edition of Unschooling Exploring Learning Beyond the Classroom out in a few months now. So that'll be super exciting. I know, so excited for that. you know, I think DT and Ryan and 1985, right? Like their their article on self-determination theory is a really important one. They did a revision in two thousand, that's also really important. So I will send you those and link and you can link them. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah, I'll put everything in the in the show notes and in the description so people can just easy click Dr. Gina Riley: Mm. Heather DiNino (she/they): a link and and follow it and go down the rabbit hole like like we have. Thank you, Gina. Dr. Gina Riley: Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Thank you so much for the time. I hope you have a beautiful day. Heather DiNino (she/they): Thanks for listening to Self Schooled. I hope today's conversation gave you another way to get curious about your child, and maybe yourself too. Check the show notes for links to everything mentioned in today's episode, and be sure to grab the free parent toolkit at selfschooled.com. That's self-schooled.com. I'll see you next week. Until then, keep asking questions. Keep getting curious. and keep finding the path that fits your family.