Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #103 Christianity 101: Can the Bible Be Trusted-Part 2

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#103 Christianity 101: Can the Bible Be Trusted-Part 2 · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

0:07
SPEAKER_01: Hey friends, Tim Wright here, along with Dr. John Burgess.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: Hi there.
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SPEAKER_01: And we are without Terry today.
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SPEAKER_01: We're recording on Memorial Day.
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And apparently there's some people who needed to come in and
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work on her house.
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SPEAKER_01: So she's she's got an excuse.
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SPEAKER_00: Well, then in abruptly our production value goes down.
0:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's that's true.
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So we're continuing a series that we have started now called
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Christianity 101.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: We're going to look at some of the basics of the Christian faith.
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And the last week and this week,
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we're looking at,
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you know,
0:52
sort of the the
0:54
Tim Wright- And we spent a lot of time in this podcast talking
1:04
about the Bible and
1:06
how to read the Bible and trying to peel away a lot of the
1:10
layers that we were
1:11
raised with that suggest the Bible has to be interpreted in a
1:15
certain way,
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SPEAKER_01: which puts us into a lot of trouble.
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SPEAKER_01: And when you peel those away,
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SPEAKER_01: and you start to read the Bible as it wants to be read,
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SPEAKER_01: it still begs the question,
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SPEAKER_01: can you trust the Bible?
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SPEAKER_01: And last week we spent some time talking about how to read the Bible,
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SPEAKER_01: why there may seem to be some contradictions in the Bible,
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SPEAKER_01: which there aren't.
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Today we want to take it to a little different level and look
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at a couple words
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SPEAKER_01: that people attach to the Bible and talk about
1:46
SPEAKER_01: Sort of the accuracy, so to speak, of the translations that we have.
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The reality is that the Bible was written over the period of a
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lot of years by
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SPEAKER_01: several different authors.
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SPEAKER_01: It has been passed down from generation to generation,
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SPEAKER_01: first orally,
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SPEAKER_01: and then it was written down,
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SPEAKER_01: and priests would copy copies and copies.
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SPEAKER_01: And after a while you say, well, here we are in 2026,
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We've got all kinds of English versions and German versions and
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Spanish versions
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SPEAKER_01: and so on and so forth.
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Is it even possible that all of these translations we have are
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still accurate and
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SPEAKER_01: close to what was written down over 2000 years ago?
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SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
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SPEAKER_01: And so those are some big questions that we're gonna look at today.
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SPEAKER_01: So can we so so this isn't so much about can we trust
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What the Bible is talking about,
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but more can we trust the Bible as we have it?
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Is it a consistent source since it was written all those many,
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many years ago?
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SPEAKER_01: And John,
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SPEAKER_01: I know this has been an interest for you,
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and you've got some interesting information about manuscripts
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and how manuscripts
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SPEAKER_01: have been passed down and how many we have and so on and so forth.
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SPEAKER_01: And so let's start there.
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SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think this is this has always been fascinating to me.
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And there are no doubt going to be one or two or 12 people
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listening to the podcast
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SPEAKER_00: who have far out researched me on this.
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SPEAKER_00: And so, and that's okay.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to give you a kind of a very
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Tim Wright- Easy and thin kind of look at the bibliographic
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test with a huge nod to
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SPEAKER_00: a couple of authors one J Warner Wallace J Warner Wallace wrote cold case
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SPEAKER_00: Christianity.
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and I think it was cold case Christianity that originally got
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me interested in this
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SPEAKER_00: and I wanted to do a little bit more of a deep dive.
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SPEAKER_00: But basically,
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what we're talking about is what are the scientific procedures
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and tools that
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people use to measure any old text and tell us whether today's
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version that you
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SPEAKER_00: pick up on Amazon
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Is that the same text as what was originally printed and was
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the original copy
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SPEAKER_00: close in time to the events that happened?
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SPEAKER_00: And those are two big factors as to whether or not we can trust it.
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SPEAKER_00: So it's called textual criticism or the bibliographic test,
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SPEAKER_00: and it has to do with textual transmission.
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SPEAKER_00: And if you compare, especially the New Testament,
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SPEAKER_00: to other historical texts that generally we consider as valid.
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SPEAKER_00: Like,
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SPEAKER_00: for instance,
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SPEAKER_00: if you compare Homer's Iliad,
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SPEAKER_00: Homer's Iliad,
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our earliest version of Homer's Iliad was about 400 years after
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it was written.
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SPEAKER_00: And we have about 640 fragments or pieces of the Iliad.
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Tim Wright- And that is considered generally by people again
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that know way more
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SPEAKER_00: about this than I do as good like this is a good reliability.
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Tim Wright- That is the time gap between when it was written
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and when the events
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happened is only 400 years and we have multiple multiple copies
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so that we can
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decide we can determine whether today's copies are a fair
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representation of the
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SPEAKER_00: earliest copies.
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SPEAKER_00: And I'm always stunned to realize that you look at Homer's Iliad,
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SPEAKER_00: Homer's Odyssey,
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SPEAKER_00: those are both considered good.
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SPEAKER_00: Caesar's Gaelic War is a little bit sparse.
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SPEAKER_00: That was written in around 50 BC.
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SPEAKER_00: Our earliest copy is about 950 years later.
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And generally speaking by historians,
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it's considered historically accurate.
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But the New Testament,
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as we've talked about a little bit on this podcast before,
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Tim Wright- was written between 25 our earliest versions of the
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earliest portions
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of the New Testament were written between 25 and 50 years from
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the events that they
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SPEAKER_00: witnessed so within a human time span.
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Tim Wright- And while something like Iliad has 643 fragments we
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have over 5,800
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SPEAKER_00: fragments or portions of the New Testament in Greek and about 24,000.
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SPEAKER_00: Tim Wright- Total fragments.
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So this is really just exponentially better from a historical
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standpoint in
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SPEAKER_00: verifying that number one,
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SPEAKER_00: the events were recorded quickly after they actually happened.
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SPEAKER_00: And we have lots and lots of portions of the New Testament today.
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that we can reflect to those very earliest portions and they're
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accurate.
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SPEAKER_00: And so I, I just think that that's fascinating.
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SPEAKER_00: And in other words,
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SPEAKER_00: the analogy is if you doubt the Bible's textual integrity,
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you have to throw out virtually all ancient history since no
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other document from
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antiquity comes close to matching it on the criteria of textual
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transmission.
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SPEAKER_00: That's amazing to me.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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so the long and the short of it is we have enough ancient texts
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in the New
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SPEAKER_01: Testament,
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SPEAKER_01: from the New Testament,
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SPEAKER_01: to tell us that the translations we have today,
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SPEAKER_01: and there's some caveats,
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SPEAKER_01: the translations we have today are very,
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SPEAKER_01: very,
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SPEAKER_01: very close to what was probably originally written for the New Testament.
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SPEAKER_01: Anyway, right?
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SPEAKER_00: That's right.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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Just looking at things from a non-faith based scientific sort
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of archeology,
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SPEAKER_00: how does it compare to other things?
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SPEAKER_00: You know, we generally accept Caesar's Gaelic War as historically valid.
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SPEAKER_00: That was written a thousand,
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almost a thousand years after he wrote it is our thousand years
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after he wrote it
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SPEAKER_00: is the earliest fragment we've found.
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SPEAKER_00: And it comes from just 10 manuscripts.
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
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SPEAKER_00: It's not even in the same league as the New Testament.
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SPEAKER_00: Not even close.
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SPEAKER_01: Now,
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that doesn't prove that what happened in the New Testament is
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all happened,
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SPEAKER_01: that Jesus rose from the dead and so on and so forth.
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SPEAKER_01: What we're saying is that as far as the text is concerned,
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SPEAKER_01: the stories as they were written down,
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SPEAKER_01: Paul's letters as they were written down,
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have far more fragments closer to the dates when they were
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written than many of the
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SPEAKER_01: histories that we automatically assume are accurate.
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SPEAKER_00: That's right.
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Even people who are longtime skeptics of Christianity as a
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whole agree that this
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SPEAKER_00: is,
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SPEAKER_00: from a historical standpoint,
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SPEAKER_00: phenomenal that
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SPEAKER_00: Tim Wright- That what was written is what you're seeing today.
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SPEAKER_00: And so I'm really only addressing that one portion of,
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SPEAKER_00: and it's a great question,
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SPEAKER_00: which is all these people are involved.
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SPEAKER_00: They're all describing God.
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SPEAKER_00: We've talked about that on this podcast before.
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We've talked about the difficulties in describing a limitless
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eternal God for a
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SPEAKER_00: human being to understand that and write it down.
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SPEAKER_00: But the foundational question is,
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SPEAKER_00: how can I trust the Bible that I'm picking up at Barnes and Noble today?
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SPEAKER_00: Hasn't been corrupted over the 2000 years.
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And historical science says that this is as reliable as
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anything by a multitude of factors.
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
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SPEAKER_01: Now,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm going to make a statement that is fairly accurate,
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SPEAKER_01: and it's not going to make a lot of sense at first,
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SPEAKER_01: so I'll tease it out.
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In some ways,
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the further away we get,
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the more accurate our translations become.
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SPEAKER_01: And here's what I mean by that.
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The further away we are now from when the first books of the
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Bible were written in
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SPEAKER_01: the New Testament,
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SPEAKER_01: we,
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SPEAKER_01: because of archaeology,
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SPEAKER_01: because of the scientific models that we have today,
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we are now able to go back and compare and contrast where when
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the King James
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SPEAKER_01: Version of the Bible was written back in the 16-1700s,
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SPEAKER_01: whenever that was,
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SPEAKER_01: they didn't have access.
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SPEAKER_01: to all of these manuscripts.
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They didn't have access to these scientific models and methods
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that we have today.
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And so we can go back now and come up with more accurate
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translations than they
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SPEAKER_01: could back under King James,
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SPEAKER_01: for example,
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SPEAKER_01: or even Martin Luther,
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because they just have available to them what we have available
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to us today.
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SPEAKER_01: So in some ways, our translations are more accurate today
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Then they were three four five hundred a thousand two thousand
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a thousand years ago
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or maybe not yeah you know several hundred years ago because we
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have that science
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and those manuscripts available to us so said differently we
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are always discovering
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more manuscripts and more fragments right and the tools and
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knowledge that we have
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for understanding this as a science grow every day that's right
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those two things
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SPEAKER_00: lead us to a better understanding of intent and that sort of thing
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SPEAKER_01: Yes, correct.
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And what we also discover through all this process is that the
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Bible as we have it
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SPEAKER_01: today is remarkably consistent.
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SPEAKER_01: The translations,
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when you consider the numbers of different people who have had
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their hands in
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SPEAKER_01: copying texts all over the world,
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SPEAKER_01: passing down,
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SPEAKER_01: translating,
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SPEAKER_01: it's remarkably consistent in translation to translation.
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SPEAKER_01: Now that's a generalization.
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SPEAKER_01: Here's the caveat.
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SPEAKER_01: Translations are still translations.
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SPEAKER_01: And when people translate the Bible,
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SPEAKER_01: we always want to be aware of the fact that people have certain biases.
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SPEAKER_01: They have a certain understanding of the gospel when they're going in.
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SPEAKER_01: And if you're not careful,
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SPEAKER_01: In particular,
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SPEAKER_01: if you're not a part of a diverse team of translators,
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SPEAKER_01: you can end up translating the Bible with a bias in it.
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And there are some translations of the Bible that have a
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conservative bias to them,
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SPEAKER_01: for example,
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SPEAKER_01: where certain verses are translated
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SPEAKER_01: Let's take, for example, the word hell.
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They're translated to suggest a belief in hell that we have in
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modern times,
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SPEAKER_01: but that was not consistent with how Jesus would have used the word.
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SPEAKER_01: Jesus would have used the word Gehenna,
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SPEAKER_01: for example,
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which was an actual place in Israel where garbage was burned
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and trash was burned
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SPEAKER_01: and where child sacrifice had taken place.
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And that would have been the image he used but sometimes
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translators because they
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believe in this literal hell that was a creation that came
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hundreds of years after
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Jesus they put that bias in and so we do need to be aware of
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biases in translations
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SPEAKER_01: and they're not they're not doing this to corrupt the Bible but
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SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's difficult not to put your bias in.
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SPEAKER_01: So when you choose a Bible,
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you want to make sure that you're looking at a Bible that's
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been translated by a
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diverse group of theologians who have access to the latest in
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fragments and
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SPEAKER_01: science,
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SPEAKER_01: who have studied Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic,
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SPEAKER_01: and understand the nuances and the differences in those words.
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SPEAKER_01: And I know if you're listening,
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SPEAKER_01: you're thinking,
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SPEAKER_01: well,
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SPEAKER_01: how in the world am I supposed to do that?
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And we'll give you a couple options here in a moment that at
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least I feel are good translations.
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But the Bibles you want to be aware of are those that are
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translated by one person.
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SPEAKER_01: And technically, those aren't really
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I guess you could call them a translation but for example years
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and years ago the
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Living Bible was a huge huge best-selling Bible because the
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author one man
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paraphrased he didn't translate he paraphrased the Bible
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meaning he took a
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translation and then tried to put it into easy to understand
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English and so he was
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SPEAKER_01: making some
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uh some decisions based of of lay of translation based on how
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people uh at that
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time back in the 70s and 80s would understand language and they
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weren't always the
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best translations they were paraphrases and um and then that of
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course influence
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SPEAKER_01: other translations so um
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So the understanding the way that words are translated aren't
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always as accurate as
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it could be it doesn't mean that the translation itself didn't
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use science but
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sometimes the bias changes a word like hell for example I'll
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use another one in a
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moment when it could have been translated better yeah and by
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the way we have a
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podcast on hell yes it is number seven start with number 17 if
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you're interested in
15:52
SPEAKER_00: that Tim I was gonna say like
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Are you referring to,
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you know,
15:56
every now and then I like to read the message.
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SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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SPEAKER_00: So is the message not an example of what you're talking about right now?
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SPEAKER_01: Yes, the message is an example.
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SPEAKER_01: It's not to say you shouldn't use the message,
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SPEAKER_01: but you need to understand that one person,
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SPEAKER_01: Eugene Peterson,
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SPEAKER_01: took Scripture,
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SPEAKER_01: took the New Testament and the Old Testament,
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SPEAKER_01: and through his theological lens,
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And through his desire to make the Bible accessible to the
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audience that he was
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SPEAKER_01: writing to 10,
16:26
SPEAKER_01: 15,
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SPEAKER_01: 20 years ago,
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SPEAKER_01: he made certain translation decisions that reflect his bias.
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SPEAKER_01: What your best translations try to do is to,
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SPEAKER_01: again,
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SPEAKER_01: have a diverse group of scholars,
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SPEAKER_01: to the best of their ability,
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SPEAKER_01: eliminate bias,
16:45
SPEAKER_01: and try to translate the Scripture as
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SPEAKER_01: Based on the most accurate manuscripts.
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SPEAKER_01: Now,
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sometimes decisions have to be made because there are Greek
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words in the New
16:58
SPEAKER_01: Testament that are used that have been lost to us.
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And sometimes there are Greek words that were only used in the
17:03
New Testament.
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SPEAKER_01: It's almost like the authors made words up and you kind of have to guess.
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But there are people who spend their lives studying Greek and
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Hebrew and those are
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SPEAKER_01: the people you want to make sure are on your translation team.
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You want,
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you know,
17:18
a good dose of some kind of liberal and conservatives talking
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together.
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SPEAKER_01: What does this mean?
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SPEAKER_01: And that's how you get your better translations.
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SPEAKER_01: Now,
17:28
SPEAKER_01: again,
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SPEAKER_01: most translations that we have in the last 10 to 15,
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SPEAKER_01: 20 years are all going to be accurate in terms of manuscript.
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SPEAKER_01: But they will be, some of them will be more biased than others.
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SPEAKER_01: And some of them will admit that they have a bias to them.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
17:47
SPEAKER_00: I was going to say,
17:47
SPEAKER_00: we use the word bias,
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SPEAKER_00: and I guess it's accurate,
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SPEAKER_00: but we're not trying to impugn deceitful intent on behalf of these folks.
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SPEAKER_00: We're just saying that,
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: can you imagine if your job is to translate and trying to figure out,
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: it's just got to be a massive job.
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SPEAKER_00: And if you're trying to figure it out, I think what Tim's point is that
18:11
you know having a group of people around you that look at look
18:13
at the world through
18:14
a different lens than you do may help bring some more of that
18:18
true meaning so I
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mean I read the message next to my translation of preference
18:26
because I like the
18:27
insight that it gives but I also I also try to read it next to
18:31
it so I can try to
18:32
get to that it's sort of like you know there's new sites out
18:36
there that give you
18:38
the liberal Democratic take and the conservative Republican
18:42
take next to each other.
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And if you read them next to each other,
18:45
sometimes you can get to a little bit more truth.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: Let me give you an example.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm drawing on my memory from this one.
18:56
Romans chapter eight begins,
18:58
there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
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SPEAKER_01: And my memory serves
19:06
SPEAKER_01: The Living Bible,
19:08
SPEAKER_01: again paraphrased by one man,
19:10
SPEAKER_01: said,
19:10
SPEAKER_01: he translated it,
19:12
SPEAKER_01: there will be no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: There's a big difference between there is now and there will be.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: When you live in the translation,
19:29
SPEAKER_01: there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
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SPEAKER_01: that means right now.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: You no longer live condemned.
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SPEAKER_01: If the translation is there will be no condemnation,
19:41
SPEAKER_01: well,
19:42
SPEAKER_01: then you're kind of living your life like,
19:43
SPEAKER_01: okay,
19:44
SPEAKER_01: what do I got to do to get out of that?
19:47
And that's where translations become really important and where
19:51
bias can become
19:52
SPEAKER_01: really important.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: So to make things really simple,
19:55
let's say your bias is that the whole of the Christian movement
19:58
is about getting to
19:59
SPEAKER_01: heaven.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: That's what you think Jesus came to do is to get us ready for heaven.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: Well,
20:05
everything that you do then when you translate the New
20:07
Testament is going to be
20:08
SPEAKER_01: with that bias in mind.
20:11
SPEAKER_01: If you believe that Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is now here,
20:15
and that Jesus came to bring God's reign and rule here for us
20:19
to work together to
20:20
SPEAKER_01: build a more just,
20:22
SPEAKER_01: fair,
20:22
SPEAKER_01: loving,
20:22
SPEAKER_01: caring society,
20:24
SPEAKER_01: then you're going to interpret the New Testament that way.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: But it's not just that simple.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: There are strong indications as to what the Bible really means, right?
20:37
And some people just get so caught up in their understanding of
20:41
hell or of heaven
20:43
SPEAKER_01: that they then have a hard time seeing what the Bible is really saying.
20:48
That's why we keep saying,
20:49
you've got to read the Bible because the Bible wants to be
20:51
read.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: So bias can be a problem.
20:57
So what one of my my favorite translations which I which I find
21:02
to be fairly
21:05
accurate right no translations perfect perfect but fairly
21:08
accurate would be the new
21:10
revised standard version of the Bible and I think that's it's
21:16
the new revised
21:16
standard and then there's a couple other letters after it
21:19
because they just came up
21:20
with an updated version and and that's the one thing that's
21:24
great about things like
21:25
SPEAKER_01: the new revised standard version of the Bible
21:27
they keep updating because again the more information you get
21:31
the better your
21:32
translations can be the more we find Greek words that match the
21:37
Greek words in the
21:38
New Testament the more accurate the translations can become so
21:41
it's a good
21:41
translation it's written to a higher level education and for
21:47
some people especially
21:48
when you're reading the Bible and it's kind of tough already
21:52
some of these other
21:53
SPEAKER_01: things like the message
21:56
SPEAKER_01: They don't dumb down scripture,
21:57
SPEAKER_01: but they make the scriptures a little bit more accessible,
22:00
SPEAKER_01: but then you sacrifice sometimes accuracy.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
22:06
And this gets back to him to you and I on this podcast and
22:09
Terry always saying,
22:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:12
SPEAKER_00: I just want to like if folks are listening.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: It's the NRSVUE.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: There's a Catholic Edition.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: There's an Anglicized Catholic Edition.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: I have no idea what that is, but you can definitely start with that.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: But also,
22:27
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:29
SPEAKER_00: we really encourage people to sit down and suss this stuff out,
22:34
SPEAKER_00: not alone,
22:35
SPEAKER_00: but with other folks around you.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: This is the community that we always talk about is
22:41
and the different versions that come to bear and walking
22:45
through the beauty of what
22:48
the messages are to you with a few people around you oftentimes
22:52
makes a lot of
22:53
SPEAKER_00: sense and a good podcast like ours.
22:56
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: I would also say that there are,
23:00
SPEAKER_01: and we've talked about this before,
23:03
one way to read the Bible is to read it critically and by that
23:06
I mean to study it.
23:09
SPEAKER_01: and to really get into what is the Bible saying?
23:11
SPEAKER_01: What is the Greek saying?
23:13
SPEAKER_01: What did Paul mean by the use of this word?
23:15
SPEAKER_01: What did Jesus mean by this story?
23:18
SPEAKER_01: So you're really studying it to learn.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: And then you can also read it devotionally,
23:23
SPEAKER_01: where you're just reading it to let the stories capture your heart.
23:28
And so I always sort of say rule of thumb for me is when you're
23:32
studying the Bible,
23:33
SPEAKER_01: find the best translation you can get.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: That would be like the New Revised Standard Virgin Updated Edition.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: If you're just reading devotionally, yeah, go ahead and read the message.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: Go ahead and read the New Living Bible.
23:49
Find something that for you might make the scriptures a bit
23:54
more accessible.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Just remembering that, you know,
24:01
SPEAKER_01: You want to make sure that you're reading scripture,
24:03
SPEAKER_01: not just devotional yourself,
24:04
SPEAKER_01: but within community,
24:06
and that you are wrestling with some of the tougher to read
24:12
translations because
24:13
SPEAKER_01: they're probably a bit more accurate in terms of less bias.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: Let me give you another example,
24:20
SPEAKER_01: and I won't go into this a lot,
24:23
SPEAKER_01: but there's a movie,
24:24
SPEAKER_01: I think it's called,
24:25
SPEAKER_01: John can look it up,
24:26
SPEAKER_01: 1946,
24:28
SPEAKER_01: the mistranslation that
24:30
change the world or something like that and I'll put it in the
24:33
show notes the word
24:35
homosexuality was never in the Bible and it was a
24:41
mistranslation done ironically
24:43
enough by the new by the Revised Standard Version group back in
24:47
the 40s I think
24:49
there are some words in the Corinthian passage where the words
24:53
are really obscure
24:54
SPEAKER_01: in Greek and
24:58
so the translators decided to use the word homosexuality as in
25:04
a list of sins and
25:07
there was somebody who wrote in to that scholarly group and
25:10
said that's not the
25:13
right translation but it was too late it would already gone to
25:16
press they changed
25:18
SPEAKER_01: it later but that got in
25:22
The Press and then it got into other translations and that was
25:26
an example of a
25:27
mistranslation of a word that had continues to reverberate
25:33
throughout Christianity
25:35
because there are many people who will build an entire theology
25:38
of homosexuality
25:39
SPEAKER_01: based on that one mistranslated word.
25:43
and there's an entire movie about it and how the Revised
25:46
Standard Version Committee
25:47
SPEAKER_01: went to work to try to rectify it,
25:49
SPEAKER_01: which shows you the kind of scholarship that can happen.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: And even with good scholarship, mistakes can be made.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: John, what's the name of the movie?
25:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's called 1946, The Mistranslation That Shifted Culture.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: And it's a good documentary.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: It's really interesting, really fascinating.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: No matter where you are on the issue,
26:11
SPEAKER_01: it's worth the watch,
26:13
especially if you're interested in how things are translated in
26:16
the Bible.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: So that's another example where,
26:21
because sometimes the Greek isn't quite accessible to us all
26:25
these years later,
26:27
SPEAKER_01: these little shifts in meaning can have profound impact.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: And that's why the best translations work so hard not to let that happen.
26:38
But you know once it's in print you know you've got thousands
26:42
and thousands and
26:42
thousands and then the next one and you know people usually
26:45
aren't gonna buy a
26:45
second Bible right away and so that and then that infiltrates
26:50
other translations so
26:52
how can so Tim how can we trust it knowing that that humanity
27:00
and I guess God lets
27:01
SPEAKER_00: us sort of inject
27:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, confusion and complexity in these areas.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you mentioned 1946, just that one topic.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: And of course that one topic is worthy of several great podcasts.
27:14
SPEAKER_00: And if we can pull that together, we will, but how do we like that?
27:17
Doesn't increase my,
27:18
um,
27:20
overall,
27:21
uh,
27:21
good feelings about the stuff that I'm reading.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: If I'm constantly wondering whether, uh, a key term went wayward.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: Right in 1946.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: Right.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: So what I would say is this.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: The Bible is God's word to us.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: It's God's word to us communicated through human beings.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: And human beings,
27:53
these were not robots who sat down and then the quill started
27:59
to move without them
28:00
SPEAKER_01: knowing and words were just written down.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: That's not how it worked.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: They were living in real life experiences,
28:05
SPEAKER_01: recording the experiences that they were having,
28:07
SPEAKER_01: or the visions that they were having,
28:09
SPEAKER_01: in the language and in the culture of their day.
28:14
SPEAKER_01: And with the limitations that even we have still to this day,
28:18
SPEAKER_01: that human language,
28:20
SPEAKER_01: it's impossible for human language to fully capture the divine.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: And I would argue that's why the divine finally came as a human being.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: to help put a face to what words cannot explain.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: But just because once in a while,
28:43
SPEAKER_01: once in a while a word gets mistranslated,
28:46
SPEAKER_01: or because occasionally bias slips in,
28:49
that doesn't change the trajectory of what we've had in
28:53
Scripture the last 2000
28:54
SPEAKER_01: years,
28:55
SPEAKER_01: where no other,
28:57
SPEAKER_01: and you've kind of referenced this,
28:59
SPEAKER_01: no other work of literature
29:01
SPEAKER_01: has been more deeply examined,
29:04
SPEAKER_01: cross-examined,
29:06
SPEAKER_01: ripped apart and put back together than Scripture,
29:10
SPEAKER_01: and it still stands the test of time.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: Things like homosexuality, are they big deals?
29:18
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, they're big deals.
29:21
SPEAKER_01: But in terms of the arc of the Bible,
29:24
SPEAKER_01: in the Bible story,
29:27
SPEAKER_01: that God is a God of love who created human beings to love them,
29:32
and who continues to love them even though they've rejected God
29:35
and God intervenes
29:36
SPEAKER_01: over and over and over again,
29:39
SPEAKER_01: ultimately in the person of Jesus.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: From the first verse of the Bible to the last verse of the Bible,
29:45
SPEAKER_01: the arc of the Bible and story is the same.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: This is a God who loves us.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: This is a God who pursues us.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: This is a God who will do whatever it takes to win our hearts back.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: Some of the details
29:58
SPEAKER_01: Once in a while get lost but they get rectified like with this the word
30:02
homosexuality it gets rectified but the arc of the Bible hasn't
30:08
changed and again
30:10
no other book has been through the kind of scrutiny that the
30:12
Bible has and it still
30:13
stands up it still holds up all these years later so most of us
30:19
listening to this
30:20
podcast are not Bible scholars nor are we going to be Bible
30:23
scholars what we want
30:26
SPEAKER_01: We'll read the Bible and hear God speak to us.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: And I would say you can be confident,
30:35
SPEAKER_01: even if you were to say to me,
30:36
SPEAKER_01: Tim,
30:36
SPEAKER_01: I've got this translation,
30:37
SPEAKER_01: I'd say,
30:37
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:38
SPEAKER_01: it's not the best.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: You can still be confident that God's going to speak to you through that
30:42
SPEAKER_01: translation because it's God's Word.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: And as God says in Isaiah,
30:48
SPEAKER_01: God's Word,
30:48
SPEAKER_01: once it's spoken,
30:50
SPEAKER_01: doesn't return without doing what it's supposed to do.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: And God has this incredible ability to work through our error
30:57
SPEAKER_01: and our mistakes to still bring us back to truth.
31:04
So I think,
31:05
you know,
31:06
we've nitpicked at some things just for people to have some
31:09
awareness.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: And it's good to understand that the Bible as a human book,
31:16
SPEAKER_01: divine human,
31:16
SPEAKER_01: but as a human book,
31:17
SPEAKER_01: yes,
31:18
SPEAKER_01: it's had some challenges,
31:19
SPEAKER_01: but still 2000 years later,
31:22
SPEAKER_01: that thing holds up and it is as accurate as can possibly be.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: With the few exceptions we talked about occasionally.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: And those get fixed.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: And God still speaks to us.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: And God's Spirit brings life to us as we read those words.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: And that's why it can be trusted.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: Because in the end,
31:43
SPEAKER_01: regardless of some of the human stuff that gets in the way,
31:47
SPEAKER_01: God breathes life into us when we read Scripture.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: And that's why it can be trusted.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: So I want to read this portion of scripture to you.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: This is a test for you, Tim.
31:59
You can tell me which one is the New Revised Standard Version
32:03
and which one is the message.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: This is Romans 8, 1 and 2.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: Here's the first one.
32:09
Therefore,
32:11
there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
32:16
For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you
32:20
free from the law of
32:22
SPEAKER_00: sin and death.
32:24
And the other one with the arrival of Jesus,
32:27
the Messiah,
32:28
that fateful dilemma is resolved.
32:31
Those who enter into Christ being here for us no longer have to
32:35
live under a
32:36
SPEAKER_00: continuous low lying black cloud.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: A new power is in operation.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: The spirit of life in Christ,
32:43
SPEAKER_00: like a strong wind,
32:44
SPEAKER_00: has magnificently cleared the air,
32:47
freeing you from a fated lifetime of brutal tyranny at the
32:51
hands of sin and death.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: Well, the first one was the new advice standard version.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: The second one was the more wordy message.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:03
SPEAKER_00: More worry.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: And I actually like it.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: Like I,
33:07
SPEAKER_00: I,
33:08
this is exactly why I read them next to each other is I love
33:11
the flavor that the
33:13
SPEAKER_00: message puts in.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: And I love the simplicity.
33:16
Um,
33:17
even though at times it feels a little bit lacking in emotion
33:20
that the NRSV says.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: And that's true.
33:24
And I think part of what Peterson does with the message is he
33:29
adds some poetry into
33:31
SPEAKER_01: some of the language.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: Paul was not much of a poet,
33:33
SPEAKER_01: although you could say,
33:34
SPEAKER_01: well,
33:34
SPEAKER_01: 1 Corinthians 13 is one of the great poems of all time.
33:38
SPEAKER_01: But Paul wrote a lot to the left brain, right?
33:40
Jesus spoke a lot to the right brain,
33:42
the storytelling part of the brain,
33:44
or whatever way it is.
33:45
I think it's the left brain is the rational,
33:47
the right brain is the creative.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: I think you're right.
33:51
So Paul's kind of a left brain guy,
33:53
Jesus the right brain,
33:55
and we need both,
33:56
right?
33:56
SPEAKER_01: Because some of us are more left brain,
33:57
SPEAKER_01: some of us more right brain,
34:00
SPEAKER_01: and the left brain needs some right brain stuff,
34:02
SPEAKER_01: the right brain needs some left brain stuff.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: But you can see,
34:06
SPEAKER_01: just in that little example John gave,
34:08
SPEAKER_01: the difference between a translation,
34:09
which just tries to take the words as best as possible and say
34:13
them back to us in
34:13
SPEAKER_01: English rather than Greek,
34:16
SPEAKER_01: where what the message wants to do is add some
34:21
Some translative help to help us better understand what Paul is
34:27
saying through those words.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: Some interpretive help.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: And one other thing we could say,
34:35
SPEAKER_01: and this is an interesting point,
34:41
SPEAKER_01: there are some of you who have study Bibles.
34:44
And when you have a study Bible,
34:45
you'll see little letters next to certain words.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: And then when you look down,
34:50
SPEAKER_01: It'll say this word means this or it can mean this.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: So it kind of helps you understand that there's some nuance to words.
34:56
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes the study Bibles will give you some interpretation.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, what Jesus is saying here is such and such and such and such.
35:06
SPEAKER_01: Now that's not the Bible.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: That is the translations team or the translator giving you some insight.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, sometimes people
35:20
See the interpretations on the sides or on the bottom as the
35:26
same as Scripture.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: And I had an illustration once where a woman,
35:32
she just kept insisting that the Bible says that the world is
35:37
only six days old,
35:38
SPEAKER_01: that it was created in six days,
35:40
SPEAKER_01: and that it couldn't have been anything else.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: I said, that's not what the Bible says.
35:44
And so she pulls out her Bible finally,
35:47
and she's showing me the footnotes.
35:49
And this particular person who wrote the footnotes believed in
35:53
a literal six-day,
35:54
SPEAKER_01: seven-day creation story.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: And she was interpreting his notes as a part of scripture.
36:02
SPEAKER_01: And I would argue he wasn't reading the Bible as it's meant to be read.
36:06
We got a whole thing on how the creation story works,
36:09
several podcasts on that.
36:12
And so you know when you're reading the Bible just remember
36:15
anything that's on the
36:16
side or underneath that's not a part of the Bible that's
36:18
somebody's interpretation
36:21
SPEAKER_01: so we probably confused you more than helped but in the end find a Bible
36:28
translation that works for you and just read it and let God
36:32
speak to you and God's
36:33
SPEAKER_01: going to get through to you
36:35
SPEAKER_01: And every once in a while,
36:36
SPEAKER_01: you may hear things on this podcast where you say,
36:38
SPEAKER_01: my Bible doesn't quite say it that way.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: And then we can talk about that and why that is.
36:41
SPEAKER_01: But for the most part, any Bible you read, God's going to speak to you.
36:47
And you're going to be pretty confident that it's going to be
36:51
far more accurate
36:51
SPEAKER_01: than say the King James version of the Bible was written as of years ago,
36:55
SPEAKER_01: because we have more information available to us today.
37:00
If you find the science of the stuff that I was discussing
37:04
earlier in the podcast
37:05
SPEAKER_00: fascinating and those kind of things on how to approach the Bible,
37:11
SPEAKER_00: once again,
37:11
SPEAKER_00: I want to just refer you to J.
37:13
SPEAKER_00: Warner Wallace.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: That's the author, and it's called Cold Case Christianity.
37:19
SPEAKER_00: Cold Case Christianity.
37:20
SPEAKER_00: It's a fantastic read or listen.
37:23
SPEAKER_01: So next week we're going to
37:25
Pick Up On This And Our Good Friend Terry Said Well Here Here's
37:30
The Question Can
37:31
The Gospels Be Trusted Can The Stories Of Jesus Be Trusted And
37:34
She Said Well If You
37:34
Can Trust The Bible Then Certainly You Can Trust The Gospels
37:39
And Of Course She's
37:40
Right But The Gospels Take Us To A Whole New Level Now Because
37:44
The Gospels Move Us
37:45
Not Just From A Book But To A Person And So Can We Trust These
37:51
Stories Of Jesus
37:53
Especially when it seems that the stories of Jesus contradict
37:58
each other from time to time.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: And so what's going on?
38:02
SPEAKER_01: And again,
38:02
SPEAKER_01: it has to do with trusting the Bible,
38:04
but we're going to just get a little bit more focused and zero
38:07
in on the Gospels.
38:08
SPEAKER_01: So that'll be next time.
38:10
SPEAKER_01: And you're seeing the Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
38:15
SPEAKER_01: We are here without Terry today, who is having work done on our house.
38:20
SPEAKER_01: I have a hunch she'll still be having work done on our house next week.
38:23
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright, Thanks, everyone.