Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / CELESTE,13, AUTOPSY: SKELETONIZED, MISSING LEFT EYE, D4VD WHINES

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CELESTE,13, AUTOPSY: SKELETONIZED, MISSING LEFT EYE, D4VD WHINES · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
0:06
Speaker 2: A little girl, Celesti revs just thirteen years old.
0:10
Speaker 1: Tonight autopsy Bobshell.
0:13
Speaker 2: We learn this little girl partially skeletonized, her left eye gone,
0:21
Speaker 2: traces off not only meth but MDMA in her system.
0:28
Speaker 2: What was done to this little girl before she was
0:32
Speaker 2: killed with a quote sharp object. This as David Anthony
0:38
Speaker 2: Burke aka D four v D, the famous musician winds
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Speaker 2: behind bars. Really yes, really good evening. I'mancy Grace. This
0:50
Speaker 2: is Crime Stories straight out to special guests joining us.
0:55
Speaker 2: Caitlin Becker, senior national correspondent in New York Post, hosts
0:58
Speaker 2: of podcasts in Why Post cast Caitlin Bombshell autopsy report.
1:05
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering, now that I've seen.
1:08
Speaker 2: The autopsy report, why the LAPD insisted it stay under
1:13
Speaker 2: seal for so long? Maybe because it's so incendiary. Remember
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Speaker 2: at the get go, Kaitlin, a lot of news outlets
1:22
Speaker 2: were saying they can't determine COD. We have sources inside
1:26
Speaker 2: the medical Examiner's office. They can't tell COD because she's
1:29
Speaker 2: decomposed one and two dismembered b s technical legal term.
1:36
Speaker 2: They've had the COD for months now, and that is
1:41
Speaker 2: death by a sharp object. So what can you tell us.
1:47
Speaker 2: Do we know why the LAPD wanted it kept secret
1:51
Speaker 2: for so long?
1:52
Speaker 3: We don't know why they wanted to keep it secret
1:54
Speaker 3: for so long. This was determined back in December, at
1:59
Speaker 3: the end of twenty twenty five, and we did have
2:01
Speaker 3: sources at the Post that we spoke to who told
2:05
Speaker 3: us the same thing that you had heard from other
2:07
Speaker 3: sources as well.
2:08
Speaker 4: They couldn't determine the cause of death.
2:10
Speaker 3: They couldn't say it was a homicide because they couldn't
2:13
Speaker 3: figure out how she died. But this, as you said,
2:16
Speaker 3: explosive bombshell autopsy, was so disturbing.
2:21
Speaker 4: And gruesome and brutal, but.
2:23
Speaker 3: Clearly laid out at least two areas where she was
2:27
Speaker 3: very clearly stabbed with something, even to the point where
2:30
Speaker 3: they were noting the angle with which the knife went in.
2:35
Speaker 3: It was between three and nine o'clock. And if you
2:38
Speaker 3: think about going down like this, that's exactly how you
2:41
Speaker 3: would hold a knife. So the fact that this was
2:43
Speaker 3: sitting there for all of these months is baffling.
2:46
Speaker 2: Caitlin, you've read this autopsy report, Yes, very rarely have
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Speaker 2: I felt nauseous reading an autopsy report. Ruth, I even
2:54
Speaker 2: feel nauseous when I go to an autopsy. When I
2:58
Speaker 2: read this, I felt nauseous. I got hot all over
3:02
Speaker 2: because I think of Celeste as that.
3:05
Speaker 1: Little girl thirteen years old and Bob Shell.
3:08
Speaker 2: Tonight we are learning that D four VD aka David
3:13
Speaker 2: Anthony Burt met Celeste allegedly when she.
3:17
Speaker 4: Was twelve, possibly as early as eleven.
3:20
Speaker 2: He's grown, man, What is he doing with a twelve
3:23
Speaker 2: year old girl?
3:24
Speaker 1: Caitlin Becker?
3:25
Speaker 3: Nothing good and nothing legal, Nancy. So The New York
3:28
Speaker 3: Post compiled a bunch of Discord, Reddit chat room clips
3:34
Speaker 3: and screenshots going back to twenty twenty three and then
3:38
Speaker 3: back to potentially twenty twenty one, where she was maybe
3:42
Speaker 3: eleven twelve at the oldest, where they were apparently together.
3:48
Speaker 3: These disturbing messages with people on Reddit and Discord saying
3:52
Speaker 3: that he had a girlfriend. Her name was Celeste, it
3:55
Speaker 3: was something with the c She was in middle school.
3:58
Speaker 3: So this seemed to be no surprise to some of
4:01
Speaker 3: the fans who were operating in some of these chat
4:04
Speaker 3: rooms and circles. One of them looked like it was
4:07
Speaker 3: even a conversation between the two of them in a
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Speaker 3: chat room where it's October twenty twenty three, where someone
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Speaker 3: that appears to be David says is Celeste.
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Speaker 4: Here, and a screen name that appears to.
4:19
Speaker 3: Be Celeste says David bark or Burke, but it was
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Speaker 3: she wrote bar kkkakk to just be kind of cutesy
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Speaker 3: as a twelve year old would be online. But even
4:29
Speaker 3: going back further, Nancy her missing person's flyer indicated that
4:35
Speaker 3: she was in Hello Kitty sandals, which just that image
4:37
Speaker 3: in and of itself is troubling. It gives you an
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Speaker 3: idea of just how young she is. But there was
4:42
Speaker 3: a post that David had posted of a photo that
4:47
Speaker 3: included some Hello Kitty crocs that you could see at
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Speaker 3: the bottom, and then a caption where he made some
4:53
Speaker 3: disturbing reference to the Hello Kitty girl that got him
4:58
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty one. So now we're talking about grade school,
5:02
Speaker 3: grade school aged. It is so troubling and grotesque in
5:09
Speaker 3: so many ways to note that information that we uncovered,
5:12
Speaker 3: and then you put it with the way she was
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Speaker 3: found by investigators, It really does make you sick to
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Speaker 3: your stomach.
5:18
Speaker 2: Philip Dubay joining US veteran criminal defense attorney, joining US
5:24
Speaker 2: out of this jurisdiction. La the Hello Kitty girl twelve
5:31
Speaker 2: years old when D four VD puts the maves on her.
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Speaker 2: She's missing an eyeball and she's skeletonized. Thoughts, why shouldn't
5:41
Speaker 2: this be a death penalty case?
5:42
Speaker 5: This is not a capital case. It might be on paper,
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Speaker 5: but this young man has absolutely no criminal record. I
5:50
Speaker 5: do not see a jury ever executing him. I think
5:53
Speaker 5: best case scenario is that this could result in a
5:56
Speaker 5: plea bargain. But even then I think it's highly because
6:00
Speaker 5: this max is life without parole. What on earth would
6:04
Speaker 5: be the incentive for him to take a deal that
6:06
Speaker 5: would involve life behind bars? Anyway? So I actually think
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Speaker 5: that this may be over filed.
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Speaker 2: You know, Philip Debay, I like you, but I got
6:17
Speaker 2: to ask you a question. When you do all that
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Speaker 2: manscaping right there, do you ever actually look at yourself.
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Speaker 1: In the mirror? How can you say that the girl
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Speaker 1: was twelve? Twelve?
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Speaker 2: Celeste Rivas was twelve when D four VD, the big
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Speaker 2: musician puts moves on her, and now she's dead in
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Speaker 2: his trunk, her body in pieces, her left eyeball is gone.
6:46
Speaker 1: Wonder what happened to that?
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Speaker 2: Scott Morgan is going to tell you that when you decompose,
6:52
Speaker 2: your eyeball doesn't just disappear.
6:54
Speaker 1: Where is her eyeball? Why did you have MDMA in
6:57
Speaker 1: her system? Meth in her system? Why? Why is this
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Speaker 1: not a death penalty case? If this is not a
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Speaker 1: death penalty case, what is.
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Speaker 5: There has to be some evidence a that he's the
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Speaker 5: one who actually did it. Merely having a corpse is
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Speaker 5: not proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he is in
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Speaker 5: fact the actual killer. At most, what you have is
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Speaker 5: him having constructive possession of her, because her remains were
7:23
Speaker 5: found in the car. Now, having said that, the jury
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Speaker 5: is going to have to find, assuming it even goes
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Speaker 5: to a penalty phase, that he's irreformable, irredeemable, and that
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Speaker 5: the only just outcome for him would be California's lethal injection,
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Speaker 5: I predict that no jury will ever execute this young man.
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Speaker 2: Straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan joining us, I need you,
7:46
Speaker 2: and I need you now, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,
7:50
Speaker 2: which has an incredible new facility and program for criminal procedure.
7:58
Speaker 1: We've done a lot of records together. He is the
8:02
Speaker 1: author of a bestseller, Blood.
8:03
Speaker 2: Beneath My feet on Amazon, and he is the star
8:07
Speaker 2: of a hit podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.
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Speaker 2: But all that aside, he is a death investigator with
8:14
Speaker 2: over ten thousand death investigations under his belt. Now, how
8:19
Speaker 2: is a death investigator different from a medical examiner. He
8:23
Speaker 2: goes out to the scene and he sees all the
8:26
Speaker 2: scenes as they are when police find the body. He
8:32
Speaker 2: looks at accidents, he looks at natural causes, he looks
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Speaker 2: at suicide, he looks at undetermined and of course homicide.
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Speaker 2: And he knows the difference usually one glance, and he
8:43
Speaker 2: can tell you. Could you walk us through and try
8:47
Speaker 2: to skip the medical examiner vernacular like you're talking to
8:54
Speaker 2: a jury, please, so we can all understand. See, I
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Speaker 2: understand what it means when I read in the autopsy
9:01
Speaker 2: her left eyeball is gone? How did that happen? That
9:06
Speaker 2: did not happen naturally. I know what it means that
9:09
Speaker 2: MDMA is in her system. Methad amphetamine is in this
9:12
Speaker 2: little girl's system. I know what it means that her
9:15
Speaker 2: head is in an actual body bag with handles on it,
9:21
Speaker 2: that's not a trash bag, and that under the body
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Speaker 2: bag which they had to go get or is it
9:26
Speaker 2: one of his props for one of his creepy songs
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Speaker 2: about death. Oh my goodness, that means it's going to
9:33
Speaker 2: be covered with his fingerprints, right that said? Underneath the
9:37
Speaker 2: body bag, an actual body bag is a trash bag
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Speaker 2: with her dismembered body in it. You've got her head
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Speaker 2: in one bag and the rest of her body cut
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Speaker 2: in pieces and another bag. No wonder the LAPD wanted
9:53
Speaker 2: to keep a lid on it. It's incendiary, it's inflammatory,
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Speaker 2: it's upsetting, and it may have altered the course of
10:02
Speaker 2: this investigation because it is so upsetting.
10:04
Speaker 6: It is very upsetting. And Nancy, I gotta say something
10:08
Speaker 6: real quick. In all of my years, I never thought
10:11
Speaker 6: that I would read an autopsy report where I'm hearing
10:16
Speaker 6: or reading the fact that a body bag is being
10:20
Speaker 6: swabbed for DNA. Nancy, do you know they swabbed to
10:24
Speaker 6: each one of those handles a body bag, this particular
10:27
Speaker 6: body bag has six handles. Each one of those handles
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Speaker 6: was swabbed. The zipper has been swabbed. So you've got
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Speaker 6: a body bag and this body bag description. It's just
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Speaker 6: like the ones that we use at the corner's office.
10:39
Speaker 6: The medical Examiner's office. I don't know about you. I
10:42
Speaker 6: don't you know. I've been at this for a long time.
10:44
Speaker 6: I don't have any body bags at my house. So
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Speaker 6: again he had to acquire to somehow. And you know
10:50
Speaker 6: you can, you can draw from that what you want.
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Speaker 6: But let's get to Celeste this child. First off, you
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Speaker 6: know you'd you'd mentioned the skull. The skull is partially skeletonized,
11:03
Speaker 6: partially skeletonized at this point now in decomposition, and she's
11:07
Speaker 6: been down for a very long time. We will see
11:11
Speaker 6: the eyes collapse within the sockets. That does happen. However,
11:16
Speaker 6: there is considerable insect activity. And I know that this
11:19
Speaker 6: is really horrible, but people need to understand the depth
11:23
Speaker 6: of depravity here. There's insect activity. So you have insects
11:28
Speaker 6: that have been let's just say, feasting on the remains, okay,
11:33
Speaker 6: all of this time. And this has been contained in
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Speaker 6: this front, in the front of this car, and I
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Speaker 6: don't know where else it may have been contained at
11:43
Speaker 6: some point in time, maybe within that house. Insects are
11:46
Speaker 6: going to play a big part in this case. But Nancy,
11:48
Speaker 6: here's here's really kind of the dark thing. If it
11:51
Speaker 6: can get any darker. What they're identifying as fatal injuries
11:58
Speaker 6: on her. We've got the one that is on the
12:01
Speaker 6: left side, in her rib cage, and it's actually the
12:04
Speaker 6: intercostal space. And what that means is there's a muscle
12:07
Speaker 6: that runs in between the ribs. Okay, that doesn't really
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Speaker 6: go anywhere. She could have bled out from that. It's
12:14
Speaker 6: hard to tell. There is hemorrhage in there. It doesn't
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Speaker 6: affect a lung. But what I want to focus on
12:19
Speaker 6: is the one on the right. If folks at home
12:22
Speaker 6: will essentially go down your chest till you find the
12:25
Speaker 6: base of your rib cage on the right side. This
12:28
Speaker 6: is right at the top of your abdomen. And when
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Speaker 6: the ribcage comes to an end, bingo, you're on your liver. Nancy.
12:35
Speaker 6: A knife, a sharp instrument, was inserted to a depth
12:39
Speaker 6: of about an inch and a half according to the
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Speaker 6: autopsy report, It goes into that liver. The liver is
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Speaker 6: the most other than the brain, is the most vascular
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Speaker 6: organ in the body. And here's the dark part, Nancy,
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Speaker 6: this was not a quick death, she bled out. We're
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Speaker 6: not talking about somebody that shot in the head. We're
13:01
Speaker 6: not talking about somebody that you know had dried in
13:05
Speaker 6: a road accident or something like that. No, she shot,
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Speaker 6: she stabbed in the liver. She would have bled out
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Speaker 6: into her abdomen. I've handled multiple cases involving the liver.
13:16
Speaker 6: If you don't have a team of surgeons standing there,
13:19
Speaker 6: there's nothing you can do for them. And she would
13:22
Speaker 6: have had an awareness, Nancy, she would have had an
13:25
Speaker 6: awareness that her life was merely just kind of seeping
13:30
Speaker 6: away with every drop of blood that coursed out of that.
13:33
Speaker 6: Now a question is where is the blood. Is their
13:37
Speaker 6: blood in the house, Is their blood in the car?
13:40
Speaker 6: Hard to tell because we don't know what they were
13:42
Speaker 6: able to go back to the scene to capture. But
13:45
Speaker 6: I know that in the immediate if you could have
13:49
Speaker 6: examined her body, like within a couple of days, you
13:52
Speaker 6: would have seen an abdomen that was filled with blood.
13:55
Speaker 6: And I really want people to understand that here she
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Speaker 6: had blood coursing into her abdomen. It would have been
14:02
Speaker 6: in her bowels, over the top of her bowels, and
14:05
Speaker 6: her eyes would have slowly closed, and there would have
14:08
Speaker 6: been nobody there to comfort her or love her in
14:10
Speaker 6: any way. She was brutally murdered, and then her corpse
14:15
Speaker 6: was brutally abused. You're damn right. This is inflammatory and
14:19
Speaker 6: there's going to be more that's going to come out,
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Speaker 6: and it doesn't bode well for whoever is involved with.
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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
14:36
Speaker 2: Can I talk to you about well, so many things,
14:40
Speaker 2: Joe Scott. But first, when there's an eyeball missing. I
14:45
Speaker 2: know the eyeballs do collapse upon death after time passes,
14:51
Speaker 2: but there should have been some residue still in the
14:56
Speaker 2: eye socket to show the eyeball was there, had been there.
15:00
Speaker 2: Her whole eyeball is gone. It's gone.
15:06
Speaker 1: Did that happen during the dismemberment?
15:08
Speaker 2: Was she hit so hard at some point the eyeball
15:11
Speaker 2: was dislodged. There should be some at least residue within
15:16
Speaker 2: the eye socket to show she ever had an eyeball.
15:20
Speaker 1: It is gone, Joe Scott.
15:22
Speaker 6: We'll stick this in from two perspectives. Okay, if it
15:26
Speaker 6: was something that was done in the pre death stage,
15:31
Speaker 6: they would have seen some kind of evidence of hemorrhage
15:33
Speaker 6: in dwelling in there. Now as to whether or not
15:36
Speaker 6: it was removed in a postmortem, you know, who knows
15:40
Speaker 6: at this point in time, because you would have and
15:43
Speaker 6: actually on the socket itself. I've had cases like this
15:47
Speaker 6: where you would see tool marks because a sharp instrument
15:51
Speaker 6: in the eye socket right here. Okay, if somebody is
15:54
Speaker 6: trying to remove an eye externally, you would see tool
15:57
Speaker 6: marks on this area. My suspicion is, My suspicion is,
16:01
Speaker 6: and again, this is very graphic stuff. You're talking about
16:05
Speaker 6: maggot activity at this point in time, and maggots will
16:08
Speaker 6: feast in this area and they'll clean the area out.
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Speaker 6: And I've seen this happen over and over and over.
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Speaker 1: I still think there would have been residue.
16:18
Speaker 2: I think that she struggled when she was first stabbed,
16:21
Speaker 2: she was stabbed multiple times, and that one of the
16:23
Speaker 2: stabs went in her eye.
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Speaker 6: Well, we'll see if they can actually tie that back.
16:28
Speaker 6: Here's Can I make one more point and I'll shut
16:31
Speaker 6: my mouth back.
16:33
Speaker 2: Please, because I want to get to the fact she's
16:35
Speaker 2: got two missing fingers. Yeah, two fingers are gone, just
16:39
Speaker 2: like the eyeball. You want to tell me maggots marched
16:42
Speaker 2: off with those two.
16:43
Speaker 6: No, no, no, I'm not going to tell you that.
16:45
Speaker 6: What I will tell you, though, is that this injury
16:50
Speaker 6: that she has on the left side, it doesn't communicate
16:53
Speaker 6: with the lung. But you know, we don't have a
16:56
Speaker 6: weapon at this point in time. Guess what if they
16:59
Speaker 6: did what I think they may have done. What they're
17:02
Speaker 6: talking about in this autopsy report, they talk about the
17:05
Speaker 6: cortical surface of the rib. That means the outer surface
17:09
Speaker 6: of the rib that knife or that instrument may contact
17:13
Speaker 6: with that rib. Guess what they can do with this?
17:15
Speaker 6: And you know it. They're going to remove that rib.
17:18
Speaker 6: They'll clean it up, and they're going to turn that
17:20
Speaker 6: rib over to tool mark section and they will examine it.
17:25
Speaker 6: They can look at it with the unaided eye, they
17:27
Speaker 6: can look at it microscopically, and we can get a
17:30
Speaker 6: sense perhaps of what type of instrument was involved. If
17:34
Speaker 6: it goes into the liver, though it's a solid organ,
17:37
Speaker 6: you can't do tool mark on that. However, that rib,
17:40
Speaker 6: that insult right there, is going to be key here
17:43
Speaker 6: and they're going to hang on to that additionally, and
17:47
Speaker 6: I don't want to jump too far ahead, but with
17:49
Speaker 6: the dismemberment, okay, they're going to take sections of bone
17:53
Speaker 6: from that as well, like the ends of the bone.
17:56
Speaker 6: If you're talking about the femur or the humorous, the
17:59
Speaker 6: humorous in the arm, the femur in the leg. They'll
18:02
Speaker 6: take the sections out of there where this instrument passed through.
18:07
Speaker 6: I don't think it's the same section they're talking about
18:10
Speaker 6: that this instrument, whatever it is, passed through both the
18:13
Speaker 6: soft teeste and through the bone.
18:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a ferocious stab to pass through the
18:18
Speaker 2: soft tissue which is your skin, fat muscle, to.
18:22
Speaker 1: And through the bone.
18:23
Speaker 2: Which gives me a very good idea as to how
18:26
Speaker 2: she lost her eye and two fingers, because Joe Scott
18:29
Speaker 2: it says in the autopsy report there are defensive wounds.
18:33
Speaker 2: So if she's doing that, yeah, and a stab is happening,
18:36
Speaker 2: it could easily go through her left eye. You'd find
18:39
Speaker 2: markings here and here, maybe on her legs if she's
18:42
Speaker 2: in a fetal position.
18:43
Speaker 1: That's what defensive wounds mean.
18:45
Speaker 6: Yep. So the trick is are they going to be
18:49
Speaker 6: able to prove that? And this is one of the
18:52
Speaker 6: problems that you run into, Nancy. Let me throw this
18:55
Speaker 6: out at you. Okay, if you read that, if you
18:58
Speaker 6: read that report, they actually use the term liquefied, and
19:03
Speaker 6: so that's what you're dealing with with these remains. Okay,
19:07
Speaker 6: So we've lost a lot at this point because the
19:10
Speaker 6: cellular degradation that has taken place. It has literally liquified
19:15
Speaker 6: in the bottom of this body bag. So they're really
19:18
Speaker 6: fighting an uphill scientific battle here to try to understand
19:21
Speaker 6: what actually happened. More to come, Well, I know this.
19:25
Speaker 1: I know she had defensive wounds.
19:27
Speaker 2: I know that the stab wounds to this little girl
19:29
Speaker 2: were so vicious it went through the soft tissue to
19:33
Speaker 2: the bone. I know that the defensive wounds most likely
19:37
Speaker 2: means she's doing this, which could indicate how she got
19:40
Speaker 2: two fingers sliced off of her hand. I know her
19:43
Speaker 2: left eye is gone, and that her head is partially skeletonized.
19:49
Speaker 2: And I know that when you pick something up, when
19:54
Speaker 2: you pick something up like a body bag with six handles,
19:59
Speaker 2: this is.
19:59
Speaker 1: Where you look for DNA.
20:02
Speaker 2: You'll look everywhere, but this is an obvious choice for
20:05
Speaker 2: DNA to be found.
20:07
Speaker 6: Yes, no, absolutely, points of contact, Nancy. That's what we're
20:11
Speaker 6: looking for. And if any of these idiots did not
20:14
Speaker 6: have gloves on. Okay, there's a and something people don't
20:19
Speaker 6: understand about bodybags. These nylon handles are very coarse, okay,
20:24
Speaker 6: and so you have a weave that's in there. So
20:26
Speaker 6: this transference of say touch DNA that might be there
20:30
Speaker 6: would transfer into those fibers. That's why they're swabbing these.
20:34
Speaker 6: It would not surprise me, Nancy, if they had not
20:38
Speaker 6: taken those handles and clip them off and preserve those
20:42
Speaker 6: The body back itself will be preserved, will they.
20:44
Speaker 1: Darn well better? That's the last. That's a perfect place
20:48
Speaker 1: to get DNA.
20:49
Speaker 2: It's got like a consistency of rope because your sweat,
20:54
Speaker 2: your touch DNA gets down in those fibers. It's a
20:58
Speaker 2: treasure trove of DNA. Unless they thought to wear gloves,
21:01
Speaker 2: then we're screwed. But on that body bag, on her body,
21:06
Speaker 2: she was still wearing the black tubetop, which leads me
21:09
Speaker 2: back to you, Dave mac Not now, but in a moment,
21:11
Speaker 2: I want to pull up that video of a concert
21:14
Speaker 2: where there is apparently a Celeste look alike up with
21:19
Speaker 2: his family members' relatives watching his concert, because according to
21:24
Speaker 2: what we're learning, that concert is after her death, and
21:29
Speaker 2: so that's the concert.
21:30
Speaker 1: But okay, yeah, let's see is this right there? Is
21:35
Speaker 1: that a.
21:35
Speaker 2: Celeste lookalike wearing the black a black tubetop like her?
21:41
Speaker 2: Are they trying to pull it over on us that
21:44
Speaker 2: she was still alive because I want you to check
21:48
Speaker 2: the dates, Dave mac while I speak with doctor jerrellen Utter.
21:52
Speaker 2: But is that concert after what? When we think she's dead?
21:57
Speaker 2: So did they go to that elaborate effort to create
22:01
Speaker 2: a roost that she's still alive? This is from clips
22:03
Speaker 2: of David on TikTok. She was found in her black
22:08
Speaker 2: tube top. Just let that percolate for a moment, and
22:13
Speaker 2: then is that a Celeste lookalike at the concert?
22:15
Speaker 1: Okay?
22:16
Speaker 2: That aside, I can't wait to drop that bomb on
22:19
Speaker 2: Philip Dubay. Doctor Jerlyn Utter is joining us. She is
22:23
Speaker 2: a renowned clinical psychologist specializing in psych evaluations and risk
22:27
Speaker 2: assessments within the criminal justice system.
22:31
Speaker 1: She is author of mainlining.
22:33
Speaker 2: Philly Survival Hope and Resisting Drug Addiction, Aftershock, How Past Events.
22:39
Speaker 1: Shake Up Your life Today.
22:40
Speaker 2: And she is the star producer of Utter Nonsense, a
22:45
Speaker 2: documentary exploring addiction and mental illness.
22:49
Speaker 1: It goes on Dodtor Jeraln Utter. This girl that we keep.
22:54
Speaker 2: Talking about, Celestee of US thirteen possibly twelve and her
23:00
Speaker 2: yellow kitty sandals that Caitlin Becker just pointed out when
23:04
Speaker 2: she catches the eye of d four BD aka David
23:08
Speaker 2: Anthony Burke, And I'm talking about this girl's autopsy report
23:12
Speaker 2: and her missing left eye and her face being skeletonized
23:17
Speaker 2: and her fingers being sliced off, and he's whining that
23:23
Speaker 2: he's not getting enough wreck time in the can wrecktime,
23:30
Speaker 2: myrarian recreation time. He's not getting enough fresh air. But
23:37
Speaker 2: do you not see the problem with this dichotomy.
23:40
Speaker 7: It's a big problem in Nancy. But unfortunately, when you
23:43
Speaker 7: work with individuals like mister Burke, you see this type
23:47
Speaker 7: of behavior, and it's really telling. Regarding everything that Joe
23:51
Speaker 7: Morgan's been going over and what we're talking about regarding
23:54
Speaker 7: the autopsy, it's not about anyone else but him. He's
23:58
Speaker 7: not getting what he wants, He's not getting his time.
24:01
Speaker 7: So really it's really indicative of the behavior that took
24:04
Speaker 7: place leading up to this poor girl's death. She was
24:08
Speaker 7: perceived as a possession, not a person. And when that
24:12
Speaker 7: possession upsets you in some type of way, messes with
24:16
Speaker 7: your narrative, messes with your worldview. You are expendable and
24:20
Speaker 7: she was expendable. So another thing that I want to
24:23
Speaker 7: point out that I don't feel like we kind of
24:25
Speaker 7: touched upon is I think he lived very much in
24:28
Speaker 7: a fantasy world where he was obsessed with death. To
24:31
Speaker 7: Joe Morgan's point, how many people do you know have
24:34
Speaker 7: body bags that they carry around. One of the lyrics
24:37
Speaker 7: in the song basically says, I killed you and I
24:40
Speaker 7: didn't even regret it. I killed you and you died
24:43
Speaker 7: and I didn't even cry. So what we're looking at
24:46
Speaker 7: here is not so much your traditional crime of passion,
24:50
Speaker 7: because I lost control and I loved you so much.
24:54
Speaker 7: What we're looking at here is viewing a young child
24:57
Speaker 7: as a possession, something hap in his mind or in
25:01
Speaker 7: his fantasy world. And another thing that was happening simultaneously
25:06
Speaker 7: is the fact that we have somebody that is severely,
25:08
Speaker 7: severely obsessed with death, the process of death, inflicting pain
25:13
Speaker 7: and hurting someone. So you put those things together, and
25:16
Speaker 7: we have a young girl, a fourteen year old girl,
25:19
Speaker 7: thirteen year old girl, that has not only lost her life,
25:22
Speaker 7: but she's lost her life in such a tragic and
25:24
Speaker 7: horrific way.
25:26
Speaker 2: And to thank doctor jerln Utter, I just want you
25:28
Speaker 2: to think about this disturbing aspect. I'm sure you can
25:32
Speaker 2: verbalize that much better than me. I just know it
25:34
Speaker 2: makes my blood boil. You can get body bags online
25:40
Speaker 2: for about seventy dollars. The fact that he thought to
25:46
Speaker 2: get a body bag, an actual body bag, it.
25:50
Speaker 1: Says so many implications.
25:52
Speaker 7: There's so many legal implications. But look at this psyche,
25:55
Speaker 7: look at the psychological aspect of what we're talking about.
25:58
Speaker 7: You know this is yes, is that an indication of premeditation,
26:02
Speaker 7: that this was planned? Absolutely, But the other thing that
26:05
Speaker 7: it tells me is he not only planned to hurt
26:09
Speaker 7: someone or to kill somebody because in his mind they
26:12
Speaker 7: did something wrong to him. Again, let's touch upon that
26:15
Speaker 7: obsession with death, the process of death, the manner in
26:19
Speaker 7: which she died, how she suffered, how she was tortured,
26:23
Speaker 7: and then to take it to the next level and
26:25
Speaker 7: already have a body bag. I mean to me, it's
26:28
Speaker 7: not just you're thinking about, you know, disposing of a body.
26:31
Speaker 7: You have a fixated obsession with death and with suffering.
26:35
Speaker 7: So that's just the extra layer of what's going to
26:40
Speaker 7: be unpacked or what people are going to discuss regarding
26:42
Speaker 7: this individual psyche and what's going through his mind.
26:51
Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, why is it Joe Scott Morgan,
27:00
Speaker 2: it's the pinky and the left ring finger were mutilated.
27:05
Speaker 1: Also, there were fragments, tiny.
27:08
Speaker 2: Fragments of blue plastic material in the.
27:13
Speaker 6: Cuts, yep, in the cut.
27:15
Speaker 2: Now they get that by taking samples, tissue samples, and
27:22
Speaker 2: they look at them through a microscope and they can
27:24
Speaker 2: see unless it's overt and you can see it with
27:27
Speaker 2: the naked eye, they can see tiny bits of blue plastic.
27:31
Speaker 1: What is that?
27:33
Speaker 6: I have no idea, and I've been scratching my head
27:37
Speaker 6: over this ever since this first gout.
27:40
Speaker 1: A surgical glove, those blue plastic surgical.
27:42
Speaker 6: Gloves, well, that's more rubberized. It sounds to me like
27:46
Speaker 6: it's something kind of firm. If it had been blue
27:48
Speaker 6: surgical gloves, they would have used the term latex fifty
27:52
Speaker 6: so for me, and this is what I do know.
27:55
Speaker 6: If you go back into the report and you read it,
27:57
Speaker 6: there was actually a criminalist there, and people don't really
28:01
Speaker 6: know what a criminist is, but it's actually a forensic
28:03
Speaker 6: scientist that specializes in trace evidence. They were physically there,
28:07
Speaker 6: Nancy at the post. There was also one at the
28:10
Speaker 6: scene by the way, that's mentioned. They collected those items. Now,
28:14
Speaker 6: this is what they're going to do with those You know,
28:16
Speaker 6: you had mentioned, you know, overtly. We refer to that
28:19
Speaker 6: as grossly, like can you see it as they say,
28:22
Speaker 6: with the unaided eye? I think they could. They're going
28:25
Speaker 6: to take that, look at it, examine it. They're also
28:27
Speaker 6: going to look at it microscopically. And here's here's one
28:31
Speaker 6: more bit to this that you might find interesting. I
28:34
Speaker 6: think that they're probably going to do chemical testing on
28:39
Speaker 6: these plastic items to try to see if they can
28:43
Speaker 6: understand the origin, like is it tied back to some
28:48
Speaker 6: type of product that's out there. I'd actually had and
28:51
Speaker 6: you this is kind of interesting and I don't necessarily
28:55
Speaker 6: buy it. But I actually had somebody say, hey, do
28:57
Speaker 6: you think that that this could be a three D
29:00
Speaker 6: printed thing? And it kind of came apart as they
29:03
Speaker 6: were using it. I'm not buying that necessarily. Whatever it is,
29:08
Speaker 6: I think that came off of this item that's being
29:11
Speaker 6: used to dismember And no, I don't think it's the
29:14
Speaker 6: same item that was used to stab her with. This
29:17
Speaker 6: has got to be something that's really robust. It's got
29:20
Speaker 6: to be some kind of saw. Now. The trick is
29:23
Speaker 6: is it is it either a manual saw okay, or
29:26
Speaker 6: is it a power saw of some kind maybe a
29:29
Speaker 6: battery operated saw, and I'm thinking saws aws. I'm thinking
29:33
Speaker 6: skill saws. You know, we've already heard about a chainsaw
29:37
Speaker 6: that was not used. Remember Steve, forgive me, I can't
29:41
Speaker 6: remember his last name, but the PI he had mentioned
29:43
Speaker 6: that he had found one at the scene and it
29:45
Speaker 6: had never been used. Yes, Steve, and wow, what a
29:48
Speaker 6: fantastic job he's done.
29:50
Speaker 1: He said that.
29:50
Speaker 6: Hadn't been used, But that doesn't mean that something else
29:52
Speaker 6: hasn't been used here, Nancy, this is a huge undertaking.
29:56
Speaker 6: If you've never been around the dead and you're trying
29:59
Speaker 6: to take a part a body, I can't tell you
30:02
Speaker 6: what a monumental task is. We work in the more.
30:04
Speaker 6: We have all the appropriate tools. You don't have these
30:07
Speaker 6: types of things just laying around the house.
30:09
Speaker 2: Straight out to Dave Matt, Crime Story's investigative reporter Dave Matt,
30:13
Speaker 2: what happened in court?
30:15
Speaker 1: Nancy.
30:16
Speaker 8: Prosecutors provided new information about shocking illegal images found on
30:21
Speaker 8: accused killer David Anthony Burke's cell phone. Los Angeles County
30:24
Speaker 8: Deputy District Attorney Beth Silverman claims the illegal images involving children,
30:29
Speaker 8: were uncovered as part of a broad series of search
30:32
Speaker 8: warrants executed on Burke's phone and I cloud. Silverman did
30:36
Speaker 8: not say if any of the images were of Celeste Reevas.
30:39
Speaker 8: Burke's attorneys have insisted he's innocent and are demanding a
30:42
Speaker 8: preliminary hearing began next week meeting we might get a
30:45
Speaker 8: look at even more evidence as early as May first.
30:49
Speaker 8: Other than the CP found on Burke's phone, prosecutors also
30:52
Speaker 8: revealed a wiretap was used in the investigation. No real
30:56
Speaker 8: specifics about the wiretap, other than to say it took
30:59
Speaker 8: place last year. Berkeley shackled as he came into court,
31:03
Speaker 8: where in county issued orange jail jumpsuit. The twenty one
31:06
Speaker 8: year old defendant appeared calm and at times tried to
31:09
Speaker 8: look bored, only speaking briefly to the judge, saying yes,
31:12
Speaker 8: ma'am as she made sure he understood what was taking place.
31:15
Speaker 2: Philip du Bay today, it had been the moment we
31:19
Speaker 2: had been waiting for, a much hyped preliminary hearing. And
31:23
Speaker 2: when you have a preliminary hearing, the state brings on
31:27
Speaker 2: a series of witnesses, or maybe just one witness, like
31:29
Speaker 2: a lead detective that can testify to everything the state
31:32
Speaker 2: knows up until that point, and the judge then determines
31:38
Speaker 2: is there enough for this to go to trial as
31:40
Speaker 2: opposed to know a grand jury proceeding where they hand
31:43
Speaker 2: down a bill of indictment. However, what it actually seems
31:47
Speaker 2: to have been is a three out of ten where
31:51
Speaker 2: it sets the stage for future procedural hearings.
31:56
Speaker 5: Correct, right.
32:00
Speaker 1: Is that right?
32:01
Speaker 5: Every criminal defendant has the right to have their preliminary
32:04
Speaker 5: hearing within ten court days of the date of arraignment.
32:08
Speaker 5: So sometimes what we will do pre prelim is we
32:12
Speaker 5: set an interim date, oftentimes the three of ten, the
32:16
Speaker 5: five of ten date to get the discovery. It puts
32:19
Speaker 5: a flame under their tushy to get everything produced to
32:23
Speaker 5: the defense. If they don't get it all, then they
32:26
Speaker 5: have to file a motion to continue the preliminary hearing.
32:29
Speaker 5: But moreover, oftentimes, when they are given this heap of
32:33
Speaker 5: discovery on a pre prelim date, they're going to need
32:37
Speaker 5: more time to go through it. Anyway. The DA in
32:39
Speaker 5: the case, Beth Suliman, said that there are terabytes of
32:42
Speaker 5: digital data to be turned over, and I sincerely doubt
32:45
Speaker 5: that Blair Burke at all is going to have enough
32:48
Speaker 5: time between the three of ten and the ten of
32:50
Speaker 5: ten to get up to speed on this voluminous evidence.
32:54
Speaker 5: They're going to need more time. But the bottom line
32:56
Speaker 5: is they always ask.
32:57
Speaker 2: Hey, slow it down, dobay because in every jurisdiction they
33:01
Speaker 2: don't call it a three to ten or a ten
33:03
Speaker 2: a ten in your jurisdiction, explain in simple.
33:08
Speaker 1: Terms what a three of ten means.
33:11
Speaker 2: Everybody was expecting a preliminary hearing where witnesses would be
33:15
Speaker 2: called to establish PC probable calls and lay the framework
33:20
Speaker 2: for an indictment for this to be bound over to
33:25
Speaker 2: superior court for a murder trial.
33:28
Speaker 1: Instead is more of a status conference.
33:31
Speaker 5: That's the bottom line. The way it works is the
33:35
Speaker 5: prosecution legally has ten days from the date of arraignment
33:40
Speaker 5: to present a preliminary hearing. If it is not presented,
33:44
Speaker 5: is a speedy preliminary hearing, right, the case is dismissed.
33:48
Speaker 5: So what the defense often will do is within that
33:51
Speaker 5: ten day period they trail it day per day, maybe
33:56
Speaker 5: to the two of the ten day period, the three
33:59
Speaker 5: or the third of the ten day period, to hope
34:02
Speaker 5: and pray that they get the discovery so that they
34:04
Speaker 5: are prepared for the tenth day themselves never mind the prosecution,
34:09
Speaker 5: but the defense also needs to prepare, and by demanding
34:13
Speaker 5: a speedy prelimb, it puts pressure on the DA to
34:16
Speaker 5: get their act together or this case is going bye bye.
34:19
Speaker 2: Well, as far as I can tell, all we need
34:23
Speaker 2: to present to a judge is the autopsy findings and
34:29
Speaker 2: a witness placing DFOURVD with Celeste at the time of
34:34
Speaker 2: her murder. And I firmly believe take off your defense
34:37
Speaker 2: at one moment. How else would they be able to
34:40
Speaker 2: establish the date of death. They have an actual date
34:45
Speaker 2: of death if they did not have a witness.
34:49
Speaker 5: My hunch is that the digital all died all her
34:52
Speaker 5: digital devices. She probably had a strong presence on her
34:56
Speaker 5: cellphone with texting, WhatsApp, chatting, email, social media posts and comments,
35:02
Speaker 5: and everything probably went radio silent, and they probably looked
35:07
Speaker 5: at her phone in tandem with his phone, and maybe
35:11
Speaker 5: looked at cell towers where they were both pinging and
35:14
Speaker 5: could see when everything came.
35:15
Speaker 1: Put them up in reaching halt debate.
35:18
Speaker 2: Her going silent, her going radio silent on her social
35:21
Speaker 2: and digital does not a murder proof.
35:24
Speaker 1: There's got to be something else. There's got to be
35:26
Speaker 1: When you said digital, I thought you.
35:28
Speaker 2: Meant maybe their text communications between D four VD David
35:32
Speaker 2: Anthony Burke and someone else about we got to get
35:35
Speaker 2: rid of the body, or what let me tell you
35:38
Speaker 2: what just went down, something to indicate that was the
35:40
Speaker 2: day of the murder, or a witness to the incident,
35:45
Speaker 2: or a witness to describe what, if anything Burke said
35:50
Speaker 2: to them. But they have a definite time of death,
35:55
Speaker 2: which in a lot of cases we don't have. And
35:58
Speaker 2: you have to put in your end between the days
36:01
Speaker 2: of April one, twenty twenty six and June one, twenty
36:07
Speaker 2: twenty six, because you don't really know the day, and
36:09
Speaker 2: that will suffice in an indictment. They did not have
36:12
Speaker 2: to give us a date, but we do have a date.
36:16
Speaker 2: So it's either digital communications or a witness, because it
36:19
Speaker 2: sure ain't from the decomposed body.
36:22
Speaker 5: They may have had a forensic entomologist. They probably looked
36:26
Speaker 5: at the insect activity on the young girl's body and
36:29
Speaker 5: they could tell based on the insect activity the larva
36:32
Speaker 5: et cetera, almost down to a scientific certainty when she died.
36:38
Speaker 2: And with that, is that true, Joe Scott Morgan, Because
36:41
Speaker 2: I've never known of a maggot being able to tell time.
36:45
Speaker 2: You might get within a day or two based on
36:49
Speaker 2: the age of the blowflies or the larva, but you're
36:53
Speaker 2: not going to get an actual date.
36:55
Speaker 6: No, No, you're not, God bless Philip. But I got
37:00
Speaker 6: I tell you you're not going to be able to
37:01
Speaker 6: set your watch by it. Okay, it's very broad, and
37:05
Speaker 6: you know, and I do. I do concur with Philip.
37:07
Speaker 6: I think an entomologist is going to be involved in
37:10
Speaker 6: this for a variety of reasons we could go into.
37:13
Speaker 6: But you can't. That's not something you can actually set
37:16
Speaker 6: your clock by. You can't look at at a maggot husk,
37:20
Speaker 6: at a maggot husk and say this person died at
37:22
Speaker 6: this particular time.
37:24
Speaker 2: Caitlin Becker joining a senior national correspondent of The New
37:27
Speaker 2: York Post and host of a hit podcast, New York
37:31
Speaker 2: Post Cast.
37:34
Speaker 1: Caitlin. So today everyone was expecting.
37:37
Speaker 2: The preliminary hearing, where we're going to hear witnesses, they
37:40
Speaker 2: were going to be cross examined. Instead, it was a
37:42
Speaker 2: status conference. Ug They're painful. I've been in many of them,
37:46
Speaker 2: and it's basically scheduling.
37:48
Speaker 1: But what is going to happen next?
37:50
Speaker 3: Well as for what happens next on the legal front.
37:53
Speaker 3: You know this better than anyone. These things oftentimes take forever,
37:57
Speaker 3: and it's such a process to do, the scheduling and
37:59
Speaker 3: the staying of things and all that kind of back
38:02
Speaker 3: and forth.
38:03
Speaker 1: Is that true?
38:03
Speaker 8: Dave Matt coming up a status hearing schedule for April
38:06
Speaker 8: twenty ninth and May first court date.
38:09
Speaker 2: And what is happening to d four VD behind bars?
38:12
Speaker 2: He's already been segregated because he's too famous to be
38:17
Speaker 2: in gp general population. But yet there are complaints already
38:22
Speaker 2: that he's not getting enough recreation time, not enough fresh air.
38:26
Speaker 1: What does he think this is a spa.
38:28
Speaker 4: It is not a spa. It is jail.
38:30
Speaker 3: He's not been released on any kind of bail. There's
38:33
Speaker 3: no way on God's green earth that's going to happen.
38:35
Speaker 3: He gets to shower every other day. He gets a
38:38
Speaker 3: phone call every other day on the same day that
38:41
Speaker 3: he showers, so shower day is a big day for him.
38:43
Speaker 3: Only a couple hours a week of recreation time.
38:47
Speaker 4: He's alone.
38:47
Speaker 3: He's not on suicide watch, but he's alone because they
38:51
Speaker 3: think he, as you said, the celebrity status is too
38:54
Speaker 3: high that something could potentially happen to him. Inside of
38:57
Speaker 3: the prison. So it isn't it's not great in there,
39:00
Speaker 3: nor should it be for him.
39:02
Speaker 4: While he's in jail, like that is what this is.
39:05
Speaker 3: He's not incarcerated long term, but he's behind bars awaiting
39:09
Speaker 3: trial and some of the most heinous charges that you
39:13
Speaker 3: could possibly have. One of the things that was noted
39:16
Speaker 3: is there wasn't any money in one of his in
39:19
Speaker 3: any of his funds. I don't know if that has
39:21
Speaker 3: changed from when he got in there until you and
39:24
Speaker 3: I are talking now, but it's not pretty for him
39:26
Speaker 3: in there, and it shouldn't.
39:27
Speaker 2: Be, Caitlin Becker. He is in the same CI Correctional
39:31
Speaker 2: Institute as Nick Reiner, and there have been many many
39:36
Speaker 2: other celebrities in that particular jail. So I doubt very
39:44
Speaker 2: seriously that he is being mistreated, or it'd be the
39:48
Speaker 2: headline in the New York Post. We would hear all
39:53
Speaker 2: about it.
39:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, people would be screaming from the rafters on his team.
39:56
Speaker 3: As you said, Nick Reiner's there, Shook Knight has been
39:59
Speaker 3: through there, Tory Lanez has been through there. It's very
40:02
Speaker 3: similar to the MDC here in New York, the one
40:06
Speaker 3: in Brooklyn. It's like when you first get processed. That's
40:08
Speaker 3: the one where Mangioni was in is In and that's
40:10
Speaker 3: the one where Diddy was in. So it's very much
40:13
Speaker 3: when you're a celebrity and you get caught doing something
40:16
Speaker 3: in LA you kind of go to one of these facilities,
40:19
Speaker 3: and it's very often that it's the kind of a
40:21
Speaker 3: repeat of different celebrities. So it's not like this is
40:24
Speaker 3: anything new for the facility or for the corrections officers
40:28
Speaker 3: in there.
40:28
Speaker 2: We wait as justice unfolds for Celeste Rivas. If you
40:33
Speaker 2: know or think you know anything about this case, no
40:37
Speaker 2: matter if you think it is inconsequential dial two one
40:40
Speaker 2: three four eight six six' eight nine. Zero we remember
40:45
Speaker 2: An american, Hero Deputy John, Sandlin Solano County, Sheriffs, california
40:51
Speaker 2: killed in a line of, duty leaving behind a grieving,
40:54
Speaker 2: Wife kay and three, Daughters, Susan, laurie And. Elizabeth american
41:01
Speaker 2: Hero Deputy John, sandlon good, night, friend