Latest / The BioHub - by Avetix / Episode 01 - Dr Michael Tusche, Former co-CEO of Treadwell Therapeutics

Transcript

Episode 01 - Dr Michael Tusche, Former co-CEO of Treadwell Therapeutics · The BioHub - by Avetix

• 0:08
  Hello everyone and welcome to the Bio Hub where we talk to
• 0:11
  some of the top minds in biotech.
• 0:13
  Our guest today has 20 years of experience spanning science,
• 0:17
  Wall Street and biotech. His expertise covered small
• 0:20
  molecules, biologics and cell and gene therapy.
• 0:24
  He was employee number one and Co CEO of Treadwell Therapeutics
• 0:28
  and orchestrated the company's incredible journey, our stealth
• 0:31
  mode. In 2020.
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  Under his leadership, Treadwell raised an impressive $118
• 0:35
  million advanced free assets into the clinic and expanded the
• 0:39
  team to over 50 members. I'm very glad to welcome Doctor
• 0:43
  Michael Teach. How are you, Michael?
• 0:45
  I'm great, Max. Thanks for having me.
• 0:48
  Yeah, no problem. No problem.
• 0:49
  Let's jump straight in. So first question, can you share
• 0:54
  a bit about your background and the journey that led you to the
• 0:57
  biotech industry and ultimately to tread well therapeutics?
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  Sure. It's it's somewhat circuitous
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  and it it's certainly the destination wasn't what I set
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  out for when I stepped on the path.
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  But essentially, you know, I was a scientist by training PhD in
• 1:15
  immunology and I thought in my youth that I would go to medical
• 1:21
  school. That was kind of what I was
• 1:23
  gearing up towards. But then I managed out of
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  college, I I managed to to secure a role at A at
• 1:30
  biopharmaceuticals in Japan actually.
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  And that kind of refocused kind of what I wanted to do.
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  I wanted to get in the kind of the drug development business.
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  So because of that experience I went back to school, I did a PhD
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  and then throughout that experience then my kind of
• 1:47
  interest shifted more to kind of the finance or investment side
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  of things. So I did an MBA and and both my
• 1:54
  PhD and MBA were were were I did those at the University of
• 1:58
  Toronto in Canada. So after I finished my MBA which
• 2:02
  I actually started shortly before I finished my PhD, I I
• 2:07
  managed to secure a role at an investment bank where I was an
• 2:10
  equity analyst. So that kind of opened my eyes
• 2:13
  to kind of the financial world of world of biotech and kind of
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  how Wall Street works. So that was an eye opening
• 2:20
  experience. But shortly after lining that
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  role I realized that I I I kind of wanted to be an investor.
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  So I moved to the buy side where I was a a hedge fund manager at
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  a small boutique life science only, long short equity only
• 2:35
  healthcare hedge fund which was an amazing experience.
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  IT. It basically kind of showed me a
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  lot of of things about how the biotech sector works just in
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  terms of like how management team should operate, how they
• 2:48
  should message externally to investors and strategics, you
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  know what's successful as it relates to to clinical
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  development campaigns, you know what what's the kind of the hot
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  areas of biotech. So it really kind of for me it
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  kind of set the groundwork for being an operator in the biotech
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  space because you get a very broadview of what's going on in
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  the space. So I made, I made the decision
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  along with some of my, you know, dear friends and colleagues at
• 3:16
  the hedge fund that we are gonna kind of become operators right.
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  The, the joke that we always told internally was that like as
• 3:24
  investors you're kind of you're kind of pitch side you know
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  cheering on the teams. We wanted to step onto the field
• 3:30
  of play and actually be involved in drug development.
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  So we started a a small company called Nursim Laboratories,
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  which we in in a very kind of cost effective and efficient
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  way. We invented and developed a
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  couple of of small molecule drug candidates for opioid use
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  disorder and somehow managed to convince the NIH to fund the
• 3:49
  operation. So those molecules are now in
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  the clinic and they're actually doing very, very well actually
• 3:57
  exceeding our expectations. So I at that stage kind of what
• 4:01
  I wanted to do was kind of further my career and and and
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  play a, a, a kind of a role in kind of innovative biotech and
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  innovative drug targets, right. So that's kind of what led me to
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  Treadwell. And then you know I I knew a lot
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  of the key players involved in Treadwell including you know the
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  pre eminent Scientific Co founder Doctor Takmak who was my
• 4:21
  PhD supervisor and is an immunologist and cancer
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  biologist of some repute, you know discovered the T cell
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  receptor amongst other things. So eventually in discussion with
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  with Doctor Mack and Doctor Bray, another one of the Co
• 4:35
  founders and Chief Scientific Officer of the company.
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  I came back to to join Treadwell officially in January of 2020
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  when we were basically just you know a concept in a couple of
• 4:46
  drugs that we in from an academic institution in Canada
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  that the team at Treadwell actually worked on previously.
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  So we came out of stealth mode in 2020 at JP Morgan and then of
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  course three months later the world took a hard left hand
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  turn. But nonetheless we managed
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  through it and we're actually pretty proud of how we managed
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  through it. We're able to kind of build the
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  team build proof of concept in in three count 3 clinical
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  studies. We brought in a couple of
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  preclinical assets some of which were developed by by Doctor Bray
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  and team at a previous organization and then we brought
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  in a cell therapy platform. So it became the situation where
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  it was this kind of multi modality, multi platform kind of
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  company right and and was at Treadwell for about four years
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  up until very recently when I I stepped down to pursue other
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  endeavors. But it was a a very it was a a
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  very positive experience and a very interesting experience and
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  and we're able to most importantly we're able to help
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  patients right the the drugs they've been very challenging
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  patient populations including high risk leukemia any are
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  positive breast cancer. So so yeah, it was a it was a
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  for me it's been kind of a circuitous route but I think
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  eventually what I what I really wanted to if I look back 20
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  years and and I asked my you know 20 years younger self what
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  I wanted to do. It's essentially you know lead
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  an innovative biotech company and I'm I'm I feel very grateful
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  that I was able to do that. Yeah, because not many people
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  have that that clear head when they're younger as well.
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  That's what they wanted to do. It wasn't so cool.
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  It wasn't so cool, yeah. All right, fair enough.
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  Yeah. I always say, you know, I I
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  always wanted to grow up and be a recruiter, so you know.
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  I wanted to be a baseball player.
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  How did that go? Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
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  So the next question, so leading the biotech company, well, it
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  requires a unique set of skills and experiences.
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  How did your previous professional experience prepare
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  you for the role of CEO? You know, I think it was, I
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  think it was Michael Gilman who's a very prominent biotech
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  entrepreneur also Canadian like myself.
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  He he said that as ACEO your your your experience, your your
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  knowledge is a mile wide and an inch deep, right.
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  So I think to be to be a senior leader at a biotech company, I
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  think you need to have experience in a lot of different
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  aspects of drug development and and company formation and
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  company building in the biotech space.
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  So I I wouldn't say that there's any one role that that it has
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  impacted me more than others. If I were to do that, I would
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  probably say my experience as an investor because I think in in
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  being an investor I think that you really understand kind of
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  what investors are looking for and how to message a story and
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  what to say and what not to say in order to be viewed as
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  credible by Lesters. And that's something that we
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  strive to be is is you know kind of under promise and over
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  deliver. So I would say that experience
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  was was probably the most helpful.
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  But that all being said, I mean my, my experience at my last
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  company at at near somewhere is essentially 2 guys in front of a
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  whiteboard thinking what are we going to do right and how are we
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  going to do it. You know I think kind of
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  understanding the early stage drug development process is, is
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  is important as well, right. Because as as a as a leader in
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  biotech, I think what's what's most important my view is, is,
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  is to be a leader you're you're essentially serving the people
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  that work for you, right? You're you're, you hire people
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  that are smarter than you that help you kind of achieve the
• 8:20
  vision that you set out for yourself, right.
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  So I think kind of understanding not only kind of the finance
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  side of things and the investment side of things, but
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  also kind of the the research side of things is, is really
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  important. You know and I think
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  understanding clinical development is something that I
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  kind of glean from my experience as an investor, but it really
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  kind of ramped up at Treadwell because we were without kind of
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  clinical leadership for a long time, right in the absence of a
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  of ACMO. So I kind of oversaw that until
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  we brought up, we brought in a very excellent CMO doctor, Roger
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  Sidhu, who's who's now the acting CEO of Treadwell
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  Therapeutics. So, yeah, I mean, I think I
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  think having experience as an investor and an early company
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  builder was probably the most, the most impactful in in in my
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  path to the sea. Yeah, I think that leads us
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  nicely on to the next question. And especially you know in the
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  last year or so it's been that little bit harder for biotechs
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  in terms of funding and regulatory hurdles.
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  How did you navigate these challenges and what advice would
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  you give to aspiring entrepreneurs in the biotech
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  sector? I mean, I think you have to
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  think broadly, right? You have to think outside the
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  box, right. I mean I think there's there's
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  capital in various forms that you can access like grants that,
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  that we access that Treadwell. But you know I think ultimately
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  at the end of the day what you really need to do is, is in in
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  my advice to kind of aspiring entrepreneurs is you really need
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  to surround yourself with really good people, right.
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  I mean that's that's the most important thing, right?
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  Because no one person can know everything and have all the
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  experience and the and the the myriad of different
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  functionalities that are required for a biotech company
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  to be successful. So I think that's a great.
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  Ad for for, for Alls as well of ethics, talking about the people
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  and how important they. Are I mean that's we we've
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  talked about this several times. I mean for me the three most
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  important things in biotech are team, team and team right, Not
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  necessarily in that order, right.
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  So I think and this is a, this is a business of people, right.
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  I mean you can have the best drug in the history of mankind,
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  but if you don't have the right people to execute and to bring
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  it to the place where it needs to be, you have absolutely
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  nothing, right. So I mean I I I think it's it's
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  really about it. It's really about having a clear
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  eyed focus on what you want to do be be flexible, right.
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  If something doesn't work kind of course correct.
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  But also really you know have great people around you right?
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  I I one piece of advice that someone gave me a long time ago
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  was was keep your friends close and your mentors closer.
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  Right. I I think.
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  I think people that are that that are impactful on your
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  career. I think, you know, I've, I've
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  tried to stay close to people who have mentored me over the
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  years, including people that mentored me 20 years ago, right?
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  And I think it's it's important to have a cadre of people around
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  you that that that can support you 'cause it, it ain't easy,
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  right? I mean, I think I heard someone
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  say something recently. It's like there is no more
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  challenging human endeavor than developing drugs, right.
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  You know, you can have 10s of billions of dollars and you can
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  build rockets to Mars, but you can have 10s of billions of
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  dollars and it doesn't mean that you're going to have a safe and
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  efficacious drug for Alzheimer's disease, right?
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  It's very, very challenging. So I think you just you need
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  great people around you because I think something that's really
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  important. Yeah, completely agree with
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  that, Really agree. So given your experience in
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  industry, what market trends do you foresee shape in the future
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  of biotech? You know, one thing that I'm
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  thinking about recently is AI, right?
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  Like I, I, I think I'm, I'm, how can I describe this?
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  I'm, I'm a bit of a traditionalist as it relates to
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  biotech, right. It's just like, you know, people
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  talk about all this fancy new technology, but really it's the
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  tried and true methods to develop drugs that can be
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  impactful for patients, right? That all being said, I have been
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  very close to kind of you know novel new kind of therapeutic
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  modalities over my career like cell and gene therapy as you
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  mentioned earlier. But I'm, I'm really keeping an
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  eye on AI, right. I mean I think I think AI
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  machine learning can really, really you know I'm a bit of a
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  neophyte in the space, but like I I think it it has the, IT has
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  the chance to really streamline and make more efficient the drug
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  development process and that's from very, very early stage
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  discovery, right. There's really, really exciting
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  technologies like DNA encoded libraries that can allow for
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  really rapid kind of identification of of of of
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  leads, right. That can shave off months to
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  years off the drug development process.
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  But once those candidates get in the clinic, you know I I'm I'm
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  starting to think a little bit more about how AI can really
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  help clinical development, right.
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  It can, it can help with protocol writing, it can help
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  with kind of clinical study reports and all this sort of
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  stuff and and and finding the right sort of patients for your
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  study. So to me I think AI it's it's
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  changing the way that we work in a lot of different spaces,
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  right. And I think it's it's it will,
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  it will certainly, it will certainly change change
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  biotechs. So that's one.
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  Another of course is genetic medicine, right.
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  And and I would, I would include and that to me that's a broad
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  bucket, right. Like cell therapy is essentially
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  gene therapy, right. When you think about CAR and
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  transgenic TCR that's that's genetic therapy, right.
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  And I think as we improve as it relates to delivery access to
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  these medicines, you know I think these are these are going
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  to continue to, you know continue to to to change the way
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  we think about treating patients.
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  I mean I remember when the first CAR T therapy got approved,
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  right, people are like well you know how is this, how are people
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  going to access this, like how is this going to do from a
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  commercial standpoint, it turns out very well, right.
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  And it's going to continue to do well when we find kind of easier
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  ways to administer these therapies and administer the
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  therapies to a broader array of people, right.
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  So I think you know the cell and gene therapies are going to
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  continue to improve, improve as as we move forward here And of
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  course with the the recent approval of the first CRISPR
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  product for for for sickle cell disease.
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  I mean I think that's this is just the first step and I think
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  there's going to be, there's going to be more of these going
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  forward. That's so exciting.
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  That's actually really exciting. So I mean moving across a little
• 14:47
  bit more to to your mindset, I mean the biotech company can can
• 14:53
  be incredibly demanding. How do you maintain a resilient
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  mindset and navigate the pressure that comes with running
• 15:01
  a company in the biotech sector? Yeah.
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  Look, it's hard, right? It's it's not an easy business.
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  It's it's look, if you're successful 10% of the time,
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  that's huge, right? That that that that batting
• 15:16
  average is not anything to brag about.
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  But that's just the nature of this business.
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  It's it's it's, you know, most drugs will fail.
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  That's just and that's that's because you know as a wise, as a
• 15:26
  wise man once told me, biology always wins, right?
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  And basically what are we trying to do in this business is we're
• 15:31
  trying to impinge on biology, which is not easy, right.
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  It's highly variable. So I look, I mean I I think I
• 15:38
  think you just have to maintain, you have to maintain the sort of
• 15:42
  state of equanimity, right. It's just like and this is you
• 15:46
  know, people ask for my advice about like how do you approach
• 15:48
  this work. And I think it's it's like you
• 15:51
  just have to be very stable, right.
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  It's just and don't take things personally and don't take
• 15:56
  failures personally, right? Because it's like everything,
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  nothing is good or bad. It's just a situation by which
• 16:03
  you can learn, right? And I think maintaining that
• 16:06
  kind of equanimity, it's hard, right?
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  Because you know in this business most people are kind of
• 16:11
  type A very motivated to get the job done and and we take things
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  very personally. I I'd certainly have in the
• 16:18
  past, but I think the most important thing is just maintain
• 16:21
  the stability, right. If something bad happens, it's
• 16:24
  just like OK, what can we learn from this and how can we make
• 16:26
  sure that this doesn't happen in the future.
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  I think is is the most important thing and it's it's hard to get
• 16:32
  to that place. But I did just say having this
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  kind of you know, equanimity of mind, I think is, is, is is very
• 16:38
  important because you will fail. That's just that's just a
• 16:42
  tourism in this business and and how do you, how do you deal with
• 16:45
  that and how how do you get back up and and and and and continue
• 16:50
  to move forward and continue to to improve and build value.
• 16:54
  I think it's it, it starts while having a a kind of a a baseline
• 16:57
  of just like you know this this happened.
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  I'm just going to learn from it and move on.
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  Yeah. I mean who, who is it that puts
• 17:05
  the pressure on you first? Is it board members, investors
• 17:08
  or or is it yourself or? People, I think.
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  I think it has to be, if you're in this position, it has to be
• 17:14
  yourself, right? If a if a board member is
• 17:17
  putting more pressure on you than you put on yourself, I
• 17:19
  think that's a problem, right. I I think and that's just,
• 17:22
  that's how I think about things, right.
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  Yeah. OK.
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  You're going to have board members that are pressuring you
• 17:27
  rightly or wrongly. But I think it's it has to come
• 17:30
  from yourself, right. And and you have to have
• 17:33
  expectations and and you know, I think it's the truism of this
• 17:36
  business is sometimes your expectations are different than
• 17:38
  your board's expectations, right.
• 17:39
  But I think I think that the, the the pressure, the pressure
• 17:43
  needs to come from within. I think it certainly does with
• 17:46
  me. I think as well like in biotech
• 17:49
  all your your goals you know commercialising that drug is so
• 17:52
  like look so far in the future potentially makes it that little
• 17:57
  bit harder and and those small term goals you know have to mean
• 18:01
  so much more. Yeah, but I also think too you
• 18:04
  need to have. I think what helps here is that
• 18:07
  you need to have, you need to have a view not just like a
• 18:10
  year, two years down the road, but five years down the road,
• 18:13
  right. I think and and that also helps
• 18:15
  when you're conveying a value proposition to investors you
• 18:17
  look reasonable and rational if you're if you're thinking about
• 18:20
  OK, this is this is the market that we're developing this drug
• 18:23
  in, right. And This is why and and this is
• 18:27
  the commercial upside if we develop a drug in this market,
• 18:29
  right. So I I think it's you need to
• 18:32
  you need to have that Longview right because that's the the the
• 18:36
  people that you're talking to that are investing in your
• 18:38
  company will definitely or at least they should have that
• 18:41
  Longview right. They should have a view of of of
• 18:44
  future cash flow to discount it to today right.
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  So I think you need, you need to kind of, you need to understand
• 18:52
  that, you need to understand those timelines and you need to
• 18:54
  think five years down the road. I mean how how much do you set
• 18:57
  that in stone then you know is it we're going to go the whole
• 19:01
  way through and commercialize or or we're going to look to sell
• 19:04
  in this many years time or you know is?
• 19:07
  It that clear cut well I I I think a a fault that some people
• 19:11
  have is that like you know they're they're basically
• 19:14
  putting the for sale sign up very early right.
• 19:17
  I mean I I I think the goal should be to build a stable
• 19:20
  business right to build a business that is has stable cash
• 19:23
  flows and it's again it's it's it's not necessarily realistic
• 19:27
  in this business because most companies that become commercial
• 19:30
  don't do it particularly well. So I mean, I mean I think, I
• 19:34
  think it's it's you have to as senior leaders of any company we
• 19:38
  have a fiduciary duty to maximize shareholder value.
• 19:40
  That's the cold hard facts, right.
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  And and that that's kind of you know our guiding light should be
• 19:47
  patience and and and providing hope for patience and something
• 19:52
  that can that can help them, right.
• 19:54
  And there's nothing more, there's nothing more valuable
• 19:56
  and there's nothing more rewarding than coming to the
• 19:59
  realization that you're helping patients.
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  But at the end of the day you have to you have to think about
• 20:03
  shareholders, right. So whether that be taking a drug
• 20:08
  to the commercial and building a sales force which again for most
• 20:11
  small companies is not reasonable.
• 20:14
  You know, the focus at Treadwell was was.
• 20:16
  Was leukemia, right. And leukemia is an indication
• 20:19
  where you know these patients are not treated at too many
• 20:22
  centers at least in the US and it's probably true in other
• 20:24
  jurisdictions as well. So you can detail that sort of
• 20:27
  that that sort of commercial effort.
• 20:29
  But generally speaking, you know you wouldn't want to, it's the
• 20:32
  purview of large organizations. But you have to have, I feel
• 20:35
  like you have to have that in mind, you have, you have to be
• 20:38
  like we're building a company here, right.
• 20:41
  We're building, we're building a stable company, right.
• 20:44
  It's you can't, you can't just build something for sale because
• 20:46
  that's that's a fool's errand because you know, big pharma
• 20:49
  will come when they come and not a moment sooner, right.
• 20:54
  So I think you have to prepare for internal success and not
• 20:57
  prepare for, you know, an acquisition because that may
• 21:00
  come or it may not. Like I remember, I remember CEOs
• 21:04
  when I was an investor who shall remain nameless.
• 21:08
  We're talking about selling their company 10 years ago.
• 21:11
  Are those companies sold? No, they're not.
• 21:14
  They're still companies. So you can never, you can never
• 21:16
  predict when that's gonna happen.
• 21:18
  Yeah, I mean I talked to to CEOs and they say they're going to
• 21:21
  sell in so many years to me. So you know, most of the time
• 21:24
  they're, you know it's it's not a fact they're trying to hide
• 21:27
  and that's I suppose that's fine.
• 21:30
  And usually, usually the message that I convey externally is we
• 21:33
  will do whatever and it's it's a bit formulaic and robotic, but
• 21:36
  it's accurate. It's like we will do whatever is
• 21:37
  in the best interest to shareholders whether that means
• 21:40
  licensing a A, a program, selling the company or building
• 21:45
  out kind of infrastructure to be a commercial entity, right.
• 21:48
  It's like all those things are on the table and whatever's
• 21:51
  right, I mean maybe an acquire will come in and the price will
• 21:54
  be way too low, right. And you'll be like, no, that's
• 21:57
  that's destructive for shareholder value.
• 21:58
  We're not gonna entertain that. You know, I, I, I think you just
• 22:02
  you you you can't be, I'm gonna sell the company in three years
• 22:04
  because I've heard many people say that and most of the people
• 22:07
  have said that are running companies that have been left
• 22:10
  unsold for 10 years, right. So it's just it's again it's
• 22:14
  hard to predict. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 22:20
  Yeah. And I think this actually leads
• 22:21
  on really nicely. So the biotech industry is known
• 22:24
  for its high stakes and risks. How do you approach decision
• 22:28
  making and risk management in such a dynamic and challenging
• 22:31
  environment? This is a good question because
• 22:33
  I think at the end of the day everything that we do is senior
• 22:37
  leaders is about managing risk, right.
• 22:40
  It's about managing risk and allocating capital to efforts
• 22:44
  that that will improve value for the company, will build value of
• 22:47
  the company, right. So I mean I I, I think I think
• 22:51
  we you have to approach this from a very calm place, right.
• 22:55
  Like I I think if if you're rushed into decision making and
• 22:57
  you're do it, you're doing it in a helter skelter way.
• 23:00
  I think it's not it is not conducive to building value.
• 23:04
  It's can do some destroying value in fact.
• 23:06
  So I I mean I think what what we always tried to do is we tried
• 23:09
  to be and you know and and jobs before Treadwell and and I'm
• 23:13
  certain in jobs after Treadwell it's really about making
• 23:16
  decisions from a very, very calm and measured place.
• 23:20
  Right. Like really, really trying to
• 23:21
  think about all the permutations about the decision that you're
• 23:24
  going to make and how it's going to affect the company not today
• 23:27
  but like maybe five years from now, right, ten years now if the
• 23:31
  if you know the company still exists, right.
• 23:34
  So I I think it's I think it's really about like try to be
• 23:38
  meditative and this is kind of a theme for me is like really kind
• 23:41
  of thinking about things in a very common measured way and and
• 23:46
  and and really try to go beyond kind of the particular decision
• 23:50
  and see everything around it right.
• 23:52
  I just, I think it's it's important to do it from a A
• 23:55
  cause again it's a it's a it's a high pressure, high stakes
• 23:58
  business and it's just fraught with freneticism.
• 24:02
  And I think you need to you need to take that away as much as
• 24:05
  it's possible and and and do it from a calm place.
• 24:08
  I think that's the most important.
• 24:11
  How do you balance that then with, you know, making decisions
• 24:14
  quickly as well in in the essence of time?
• 24:17
  Look, I mean what's quickly like in a nanosecond, right?
• 24:21
  I mean, I I think it's it's nothing needs to be decided
• 24:25
  right at the moment, right. And if a decision that it's
• 24:28
  needs to be made right in the moment, you've probably messed
• 24:30
  up somewhere, right? So I mean it's.
• 24:34
  Not. It's not like you're gonna sit
• 24:36
  back and not make decisions and just like contemplate your navel
• 24:39
  for months and months and months, right?
• 24:41
  I mean I think it's a situation where you you you will make
• 24:43
  decisions and you will make decisions in a timely manner,
• 24:46
  but you'll do it with from a place of of of just measured
• 24:51
  calm. You know I think that's the most
• 24:53
  important thing. You know, I think it's in in any
• 24:56
  business. I think it's just it's important
• 24:58
  to maintain kind of a just a level head because it's easy to
• 25:01
  get over your skis and and and just make silly decisions.
• 25:04
  Right. I think it's it's it's yeah.
• 25:07
  You know I think it's important to just to be very measured,
• 25:09
  right. And even if it's a, it's a if a
• 25:11
  it's a decision that needs to be made, you can still sit down and
• 25:14
  be very thoughtful about it, right?
• 25:17
  Yeah, I think this comes back to the people aspect as well.
• 25:20
  You know, having the right people around you, helping you
• 25:22
  make those right decisions. Well that's the thing right.
• 25:25
  And I I I think I think it's it it it helps you if you believe
• 25:30
  in your team right. If you believe in the people
• 25:33
  that are that are actually doing the work right then you trust is
• 25:36
  an important thing too right. If you trust the people to give
• 25:40
  you the right information and then and and I think I think
• 25:43
  having great people around you is gonna help in that process
• 25:47
  right. And and and if you if you
• 25:49
  believe that they're the right people in those roles, which we
• 25:52
  certainly did at Treadwell, they will, you know, they will help
• 25:55
  you make right decisions. Yeah, nice.
• 25:59
  Yeah. So last question, if you could
• 26:03
  go back in time, what advice would you give to your 21 year
• 26:07
  old self? I think I already answered this
• 26:08
  question, but I'll, I'll, I'll talk, I'll talk to it again
• 26:12
  because I, I'm, I really believe in it.
• 26:14
  It was the two things, right? Like just really don't be afraid
• 26:18
  of failure, right. If you're going to be, if you're
• 26:20
  going to be in biotech, if you're going to be in drug
• 26:21
  development, don't be afraid of it because it's gonna help you
• 26:25
  learn and and and build your expertise.
• 26:28
  So that's the first thing, right?
• 26:31
  It's again nothing is either good or bad.
• 26:32
  It's just sets you up to learn about yourself, about your
• 26:35
  field, about you know, whatever. So that's for me that's the most
• 26:39
  important thing and and secondarily is, is you know keep
• 26:42
  your mentors close, right. I think it's it's it's important
• 26:45
  to have mentors and people that you trust around you keep going
• 26:50
  back to them, right. I think that's that's important.
• 26:52
  And again I've had mentors that I've for 20 years that I still
• 26:56
  talk to, right. So I mean it's important to,
• 26:58
  it's important to to have that. And I think the other thing that
• 27:02
  I would add here is, is you know, I think it's important for
• 27:06
  people if they're in biotech to have experience at large
• 27:10
  companies, right? Because you know, I I had a a
• 27:14
  brief experience at a a large organization, it wasn't for me,
• 27:18
  but I think it's what you what you learn there is you you learn
• 27:22
  process, right. You learn 'cause you know bigger
• 27:25
  companies, it's all about process and bureaucracy and red
• 27:27
  tape. And that's not great for some of
• 27:29
  us who gravitate more towards kind of the nimble kind of
• 27:32
  biotech environment, but it really helps you, right.
• 27:36
  So like experience at large companies, large pharma
• 27:40
  organizations and whatever function that you're interested
• 27:43
  in, I think it's is something that's very helpful.
• 27:46
  That's interesting. Yeah.
• 27:47
  And also like having experience in in, in, in kind of support
• 27:51
  functions to the biotech space in general, right.
• 27:53
  Like I went down the finance route, which I think was, was,
• 27:56
  was was good for me, 'cause you learn about, you learn about,
• 28:01
  you know the business, you know, a lot of executives kind of go
• 28:03
  down the consulting route. So that's a that's an another
• 28:06
  kind of Ave. right. So I think, I think it's it's
• 28:09
  broadly again, it's like you know you, you'll learn from your
• 28:12
  mistakes, don't be afraid of failure, keep your mentors close
• 28:16
  and have experience at larger organisations that can learn,
• 28:19
  that can teach you process and can teach you kind of like how
• 28:22
  the business works. Yeah, Amazing.
• 28:26
  Amazing. A lot.
• 28:27
  That's, that's all the questions I have for you, Michael.
• 28:31
  It's been a pleasure to have you.
• 28:34
  It's been great. And yeah, no problem.
• 28:37
  No problem. And we'll catch you next week.
• 28:40
  Thanks, Michael. Thanks, Max.