Latest / It's Open with Ilana Glazer / Reshma Saujani

Transcript

Reshma Saujani · It's Open with Ilana Glazer

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to It's Open with Alana Glazer.
0:02
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
0:03
SPEAKER_01: I just came off this conversation.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm all fired up.
0:05
SPEAKER_01: When I have conversations like this with people who are in this work for human rights, whether it's pro-democracy or uh for women's rights or immigrants' rights or mental health for fucking everybody, as we sort through the painful, depraved reality we are all living through, surviving, finding times to thrive, there are points at which I feel, fuck, is this getting too dark?
0:33
SPEAKER_01: Is this, are we reaching a point of despair for myself and you, the audience?
0:38
SPEAKER_01: But you know, if we can hold hands and look each other in the eyes and share this reality, we can actually work our way out of it.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: We're not working up against evil forces.
0:51
SPEAKER_01: We're working up against fucking people, annoying people, unwell people, but just people.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: And don't give me that shit about AI.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: It's just fucking software.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: We are on a planet of human beings, and we can get through this.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: You know, we just have to be uh, we just have to be down for the work.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: And what the fuck else are we gonna do in the meantime?
1:12
SPEAKER_01: So my guest today is Reshma Saujani.
1:15
SPEAKER_01: Reshma founded Girls Who Code.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: Reshma founded Moms First, and she ran for Congress twice, and she uh just made a new documentary called No Country for Mothers.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: She is an incredible, fiery, brave leader.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
1:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to do this work alongside her for the rest of my fucking life.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, I really think you're gonna like this conversation and feel held by it.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: So listen, come on in.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: It's open.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: Right musto, Johnny.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: So we're becoming friends and collaborators.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I have all these like things I want to talk to you about, but I first just kind of want to kick it off today saying, I just feel so angry.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: I feel so angry at the the situation we're all being held hostage in.
2:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's funny you say that.
2:12
SPEAKER_02: I was with some girlfriends this weekend and we were talking about the 62 million rape academy, and we're like, how are we having a conversation about a website called Motherless where 62 million men have gone to watch and learn how to rape and drug their wives or partners?
2:34
SPEAKER_02: Like, are we really having this conversation right now?
2:40
SPEAKER_02: And it was just like I think the fear, the outrage, the disgust, the disappointment that all of us feel collectively feel, like I feel unsafe.
2:52
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
2:55
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I I just something's gotta give, something's gotta change.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: I feel angry, but it's like it's it's more of this like shield in front of my sadness and my terror.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: I really do feel unsafe as well.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: And you know, this country has been unsafe for black women and black mothers.
3:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:18
SPEAKER_01: And is, continues to be, and is unsafe for Native American women and mothers.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: And Latino and Brown and Asian and South Asian women and mothers, and white women and mothers.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, like the rape happens all up and down the socioeconomic status ladder.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: It's um I and I I I want to feel like angrier.
3:45
SPEAKER_01: I want to actually feel the fire in my belly more, but I I am, I do just feel like a chill on my shoulder.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: That is so the rape academy thing.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: I just saw it whatever on on the internet or social media, and I I had to kind of bat it away.
4:02
SPEAKER_02: Right.
4:02
SPEAKER_02: You didn't want to open it.
4:04
SPEAKER_02: Me too.
4:04
SPEAKER_02: When it when it first came across my feed, I was like, I don't want to open it.
4:08
SPEAKER_02: And I made myself do it this weekend.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: We're living through this intense moment of depravity, right?
4:16
SPEAKER_02: Like there's no other word for it.
4:19
SPEAKER_02: And we're all being desensitized to this from like the Epstein files to the Rape Academy to like the Manosphere to Incel Culture, like that it's all just like par for course of living in this country.
4:30
SPEAKER_02: And it's no, it's not.
4:32
SPEAKER_02: No, it's not.
4:35
SPEAKER_02: And so I think in many ways, we can't turn it up, bad, you know, we can't look away, we can't be exhausted.
4:42
SPEAKER_02: We have to actually be really vigilant and really understand like what is both happening, how to make sure, I think, in particular, like this younger generation of young men don't think that that's okay, right?
4:57
SPEAKER_02: And then I think pull the men back in our lives who we know are also disgusted by this, to have this sense of like, okay, how do we, how do we put an end to this depravity?
5:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: Speaking of motherless, you have a film coming up.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: Is this your first film?
5:12
SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, yes.
5:13
SPEAKER_02: Maybe my last.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's insane.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: But like you do have this, you do have this real container now that people can sit inside of what it means to contemplate the United States being.
5:25
SPEAKER_01: Here's the title No Country for Mothers.
5:28
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
5:29
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
5:29
SPEAKER_02: And that that motherhood has been designed to make you feel exhausted, to make you feel powerless, to make you constantly feel like you're picking between your job and feeding your daycare.
5:40
SPEAKER_02: Like that is actually the intention.
5:42
SPEAKER_02: It's like a feature, not a bug.
5:44
SPEAKER_02: And I think really exposing the con, the lie, and saying, you know, the reason why we're not winning these things like paid leave childcare flexibility is because we're stuck in the same conversation.
5:59
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, the OG Tradwife was like Phyllis Schlafley.
6:04
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
6:05
SPEAKER_02: And that archetype was used as a strategy to shut down the ERA and universal childcare.
6:12
SPEAKER_02: And when you start, what this film will do is when you start seeing that this is again a historical thing, that these are archetypes that have been around since the beginning of time to keep us powerless, your approach in like trying to win these battles shifts.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: Right.
6:31
SPEAKER_02: That's what I hope, right?
6:32
SPEAKER_02: That what comes out of this is a movement of mothers across spectrums, across race, across socioeconomic status to say, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I see the con now.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: Right.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: You know, it makes me think of Trump's big lie, and they were, I think they were saying the big lie was that the Biden's election was rigged or whatever, right?
6:53
SPEAKER_01: That's what they were saying.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: But like, you know, that phrase has just been said over and over again, and really the big lie is the patriarchy.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: And and the construct of race.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I I've been thinking so much lately about since um I'm in your film and since our conversation.
7:09
SPEAKER_02: You're a huge advocate, and you've been there from the beginning.
7:11
SPEAKER_02: We're so grateful.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: I I it was so fun.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: And also, like you, you um, you just like sort of there are these seeds that are planted and that just conversations we've had since the beginning of our um partnership and friendship here, you just water them.
7:27
SPEAKER_01: They just grow and grow and grow, like this conversation since um doing your film, No Country for Mothers, about the how um manufactured the uh uh tension is between women who working mothers and and uh mothers who don't have jobs outside the home, because that's the biggest job, or women who have children and women who don't have children.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: What the fuck do I care if a woman doesn't have a kid?
7:53
SPEAKER_01: What the fuck do I care if a mom doesn't have a job in addition to being mother?
7:58
SPEAKER_01: Who cares?
7:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:00
SPEAKER_01: I don't.
8:00
SPEAKER_01: Right.
8:01
SPEAKER_01: One of my oldest best friends is uh since we're five years old, is uh she was a teacher, she's raising her kids and she's gonna homeschool them and it's lit.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: Why would I care?
8:11
SPEAKER_02: Why would you care?
8:12
SPEAKER_02: Right.
8:12
SPEAKER_02: And I think we do that because we know that it works, like for example, there's right now on the internet there's a big conversation around, you know, Emma Greed's book, right?
8:19
SPEAKER_02: And about Emma Greed is, you know, she's an amazing businesswoman and she's been having, you know, a lot of conversations around how many hours should you spend with your child?
8:28
SPEAKER_02: What does ambition mean?
8:29
SPEAKER_02: What do you have to sacrifice?
8:30
SPEAKER_02: And everybody has an opinion, right?
8:33
SPEAKER_02: And I think part of what we we kind of tactically understand that the way to gin and rile people up is to is to is to feel judged and to judge them.
8:45
SPEAKER_02: It's like rage baiting.
8:46
SPEAKER_02: Yes, right?
8:47
SPEAKER_02: Yes, and the internet is all about rage baiting.
8:50
SPEAKER_02: And the reality is, is none of these things are real because the reality is that the vast majority of mothers, many mothers in America, are single moms.
8:57
SPEAKER_02: They can't even engage in this conversation about how much, how many hours do I have to spend with my child, what's good, what's bad, you know, should I be ambitious?
9:06
SPEAKER_02: What does I have to sacrifice?
9:07
SPEAKER_02: Because they are just trying to survive.
9:09
SPEAKER_02: And the vast majority of even heteronormative couples are probably like, you know, a teacher and a factory worker.
9:18
SPEAKER_02: And or they remind me of my parents.
9:19
SPEAKER_02: My parents were immigrants and refugees when they came here.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: They didn't talk about these things.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: They were like, okay, who's gonna start work at nine?
9:25
SPEAKER_02: Who's gonna drop the kids off?
9:27
SPEAKER_02: We can't afford childcare.
9:28
SPEAKER_02: So how are we gonna make this work?
9:30
SPEAKER_02: Like, this was just not even in the ether.
9:32
SPEAKER_02: And so the real conversation needs to be about how do we make it possible for a single mother in America to survive and to thrive?
9:42
SPEAKER_02: What are the policies that we have to put into place?
9:45
SPEAKER_02: What is what should workplaces look like?
9:47
SPEAKER_02: What are the benefits and supports that we need to give her?
9:50
SPEAKER_02: Or how do we make it possible for a married partnership in America, for that couple to actually see each other?
9:56
SPEAKER_02: Because so many people, they one has to work in the daytime, one works at night, just to put food on the table.
10:02
SPEAKER_02: So, so how do we actually structure our society in our country to have healthy families?
10:09
SPEAKER_02: Like to me, like stop talking about this dumbass shit.
10:12
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
10:13
SPEAKER_02: Stop getting upset about it, stop putting it out there.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: Like, just stop.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: And it's just to steal people's attention.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: Like how that is such a creep, creepy question to me.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: How many hours should you spend with your child?
10:26
SPEAKER_01: What are you talking about?
10:27
SPEAKER_01: This is not even reality, unless actually, unless you're wealthy enough to have that choice.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: And what are you talking about?
10:33
SPEAKER_02: Correct.
10:34
SPEAKER_02: And if you what?
10:35
SPEAKER_02: If you are having that conversation, it means you are wealthy enough.
10:38
SPEAKER_02: And that means you probably shouldn't be actually offering any advice.
10:42
SPEAKER_02: Because the reality is, is like, listen, I feel privileged.
10:45
SPEAKER_02: I am privileged.
10:46
SPEAKER_02: I have, I have, you know, two childcare, you know, two people who help me in my childcare, like my the goddesses of my life, right?
10:53
SPEAKER_02: And I can't do what I do without Audrey and Tabitha, period.
10:57
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm not gonna tell other women what they should do.
11:01
SPEAKER_02: I don't have the business doing that, right?
11:04
SPEAKER_02: Because privilege, class, to me is the most, the biggest thing that is separating people.
11:10
SPEAKER_02: I have, I can make different choices than my mother was able to make.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, period.
11:14
SPEAKER_02: And what I'm trying to do in honoring her and my family is actually create a world where she could have, where she could have said, I can I can be anything and everything because I have the support and you know what I mean, the resources.
11:27
SPEAKER_02: And it's not making me go broke or make choices because I don't.
11:31
SPEAKER_02: And and and that's what that's to me, it's like, guys, let's have some fucking imagination here.
11:36
SPEAKER_02: Let's think about this differently.
11:37
SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about it differently.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: I I'm just like, you know, this whole uh I don't even mean to sound like um anti-men.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not correcting this because of the right being like, they hate men, feminists hate men.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: That's not what I mean.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: I actually think that this whole binary rhetoric about men and women damages everybody.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: Yes, in different ways, certainly, but damages everybody.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: Anyone who's 62 million visits to a rape academy website is killing me.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: That is so insane.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: And while those men who sign on to watch and learn how to rape their partners are bad people, they are sick people.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's bad.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: What does that mean?
12:23
SPEAKER_01: Like those are sick people.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: That means 62 million American men are very, very sick out of the 330 million Americans.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: It's it's maybe a little too much compassion I'm displaying here, but I'm like, this is sick.
12:39
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
12:39
SPEAKER_02: And and the response that people have, often on the far right, is well, it's because they don't have jobs.
12:46
SPEAKER_02: Or it's because we've given women too much opportunity and too much power.
12:50
SPEAKER_02: And so we've broken the spirit of men, and thus, this is the result.
12:56
SPEAKER_02: That's what that's what just angers me because you know that's not fair to us, and that's not fair to them.
13:01
SPEAKER_02: There's something broken in our country, and there's something that we've we've lost our spiritual sense, our sense of decency, right?
13:11
SPEAKER_02: That 62 million men visit and participate in something as depraved as that.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: And also when you say people on the right say this and say that it's because women have gained too much uh self-actualization and empowerment, it's actually just the handful of the men at the top of the hate-mongering machine.
13:33
SPEAKER_01: It's not even really MAGA or the alt-right.
13:36
SPEAKER_01: These people are unwell taking in messaging and repeating it, but the people orchestrating it are the same people.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: It's nonpartisan at the top among the small handful of men who control the majority of everything.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: It is non-partisan, as you can see in the Epstein files.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
13:53
SPEAKER_02: To be able to treat women that way and to stay in power is is again a strategy.
14:00
SPEAKER_02: If they keep us powerless, scared, fearful, and exhausted, then they win.
14:07
SPEAKER_02: Because there's more of us than them.
14:09
SPEAKER_02: And and I think that like, and here's the reality, and I was thinking about this, like, the reason why they don't want mothers in power and women in power, because we don't do that kind of shit.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: We don't.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: Women in power do not behave that way, period.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: And we wouldn't stand for it.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: You know, big tech right now to me is the it's this microcosm of the whole system.
14:35
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's the it's uh three men holding all the power, lording it over the world.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: Men who are sick, they are not well.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: It is clear through their actions.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: You founded Girls Who Code uh 15 years ago?
14:55
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
14:56
SPEAKER_02: Tell me why you did it.
14:58
SPEAKER_02: I I ran for Congress as the first South Asian American woman to run.
15:01
SPEAKER_02: And when I was running, I had two, like the wealthiest district and the some of the poorest districts.
15:07
SPEAKER_02: And so I would go to like Bishop Taylor's church in like Queens, and he'd have like one computer in the basement, right?
15:13
SPEAKER_02: There were girls and boys were not learning how to code.
15:16
SPEAKER_02: And then I'd go into like the fancy Upper East Side public school, and they also didn't have students that were that were learning to code.
15:23
SPEAKER_02: And at that time, in 2010, like Facebook was booming, and you know what I mean, like Snapchat, every like it was clear that there was this thing called tech in the internet, and it was gonna be powerful.
15:35
SPEAKER_02: And I wanted to make sure that in particular, girls, poor girls, black and brown girls were part of that opportunity.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: You know, as the daughter of immigrants, my dad would always say, like, you can be a doctor, an engineer, or a lawyer, right?
15:47
SPEAKER_02: Because it was all about getting a job that would help you pay the bills, that would keep you with your head above water.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:56
SPEAKER_02: And it felt like tech was gonna be that.
15:58
SPEAKER_02: And at that time, tech was like a good thing, right?
16:00
SPEAKER_02: Like you were looking at, I mean, Facebook's original like, you know, mantra was like, help us change the world.
16:06
SPEAKER_02: And you really believed that that's what these tools or these websites were gonna actually do.
16:13
SPEAKER_02: And so you wanted to be a part of it.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: And so that's what inspired me to start.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: And they would say, well, you know, we would want, we want more engineers, and it would be great if we had more female engineers, but I can't find them.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: And I said, Well, don't you worry.
16:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna teach so many of them so that you can actually find.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: I believed it.
16:29
SPEAKER_02: I believed that they wanted to fill the pipeline of girls and people of color.
16:36
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, let me go do that.
16:39
SPEAKER_02: And I did, you know, we've taught over 760,000 girls in the United States to code, you know, half of them under the poverty line.
16:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh black and brown.
16:48
SPEAKER_02: Like we've changed, you know.
16:49
SPEAKER_02: When I started Girls Who Code, the graduation rates of young women in computer science in the country were around 14, 15%.
16:57
SPEAKER_02: Now, if you go to any single college, it's like 35, 40, 45 percent.
17:02
SPEAKER_02: So many more black and Latina girls, so many more girls that were coming from Title I schools.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: Like, we did it.
17:09
SPEAKER_02: Now that is happening at the same time.
17:13
SPEAKER_02: There's this, you know, two, I think, really important headwinds.
17:18
SPEAKER_02: One is Trump, right?
17:21
SPEAKER_02: And you're in and like the attacks on DENI, right?
17:25
SPEAKER_02: And that means what he, you know, in the in his recent kind of in the lawsuit with Google, they basically said, you cannot have any programs, you know what I mean, that help hire or elevate women and people of color.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: So that is a girls who code program.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: If you're a technology company and you have a program that's helping, you know, get more girls into the pipeline, guess what?
17:45
SPEAKER_02: That is what D E I is.
17:48
SPEAKER_02: And why do they care?
17:49
SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you think about it, why do they care about it?
17:52
SPEAKER_02: Well, they care about it because they don't actually want a meritocracy.
17:56
SPEAKER_02: If you believe the problem with white men is like not having is having too much female competition, too many black and brown people getting opportunities, well, then you gotta shut down, you gotta shut that down.
18:08
SPEAKER_02: You gotta make sure that universities don't educate black, brown people and women.
18:14
SPEAKER_02: You gotta make sure that technology companies like Microsoft and Google don't actually make an attempt to give those jobs and those opportunities.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: You gotta shut down every single program.
18:24
SPEAKER_02: And if you believe that we're entering, sorry, if you believe that we're entering the space where AI, that the jobs are gonna be those jobs, you especially gotta shut down STEM opportunities for women and people of color.
18:40
SPEAKER_02: So when people really gotta see this is a strategy that they're putting into place and it's working.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: And it's working.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: And can I just like what what I'm like grappling with as you're saying this is I'm like, I I I really don't even believe the white men who also want coding jobs or whatever.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: I think maybe this like more like frontal level, they're like, well, if I knock those jobs out, then I can go take that job.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: But then once they're in that seat, they're living a lie.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: And they're Googling the rape academy because they're so fucking bored in their lives and so confused about who they are.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: They so they have been so dehumanized from who they are, not allowed to actually run a race.
19:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, not actually allowed to compete fairly.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: It just fucks everybody over.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: They are not actually winning.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: Remember fucking Charlie Sheen winning?
19:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:34
SPEAKER_01: Hashtag winning.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, that guy drinking tiger blood, it was all a sketch, a terrible SNL sketch.
19:42
SPEAKER_02: And you know, here's the thing.
19:44
SPEAKER_02: One of the things, you know, by the time, you know, Girls Who Code still has 40% of its teachers were men.
19:50
SPEAKER_02: And what we would do is we would embed programs inside technology companies and inside schools.
19:55
SPEAKER_02: You know what male engineers used to tell me all the time?
19:57
SPEAKER_02: They used to say to me, Rashmouth, thank you so much.
20:00
SPEAKER_02: Like, this was actually the first time I've ever worked with women and young women.
20:04
SPEAKER_02: So, like to me, these programs are actually because what we're talking about here is like disconnection.
20:10
SPEAKER_02: Right.
20:11
SPEAKER_02: The reason why we're veering towards more anger, more violence, right?
20:16
SPEAKER_02: Because it's because there actually is no relationships happening.
20:19
SPEAKER_02: There's no friendships happening, there's no, you know, like interactions both at work and at home happening.
20:25
SPEAKER_02: And so when when you when you take away connection, when you take away trust, you start having a lot of feelings, right?
20:33
SPEAKER_02: When you listen to what people in the manosphere at Incel culture are saying about women, a lot of what they're saying is about distrust because they haven't had any engagement.
20:43
SPEAKER_02: And it's quite frankly the same thing that's happening with women, right?
20:47
SPEAKER_02: It's like it's like this is exacerbating distrust, dislike, and fear.
20:52
SPEAKER_02: And that's happening on both sides.
20:54
SPEAKER_02: And so why, in many ways, D E and I was good, is good, is because it facilitates human interaction.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: Which then chills the violence.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: Diversity of thought and ideas, I've only seen that enrich everyone more.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: I've only seen synergy from that.
21:12
SPEAKER_02: 100%.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: And again, the other authoritarian stuff, it doesn't work unless you get rid of DEI.
21:17
SPEAKER_02: You know, my friend Stacy Abrams has been so eloquent on this.
21:20
SPEAKER_02: Like you have to basically start by dismantling progress of the very people that you think are in threat to the kind of civilization that you're trying to build.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: You're referring to her 10 steps of authoritarianism.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: To authoritarianism.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
21:34
SPEAKER_02: And so people have to, and it's it's interesting, as Stacy was telling me, is that actually Americans have a more favorite, as they've been taking away women's conferences, women's conferences, the latest lawsuit from the EOC, Coca-Cola, was about saying that a women's conference was discriminatory towards men.
21:55
SPEAKER_02: Like, seriously?
21:57
SPEAKER_02: We got so many problems in this country.
21:59
SPEAKER_01: That's what you're focused on.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Which also I'm like, I'm sure men are allowed at the event.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
22:05
SPEAKER_01: It's not like an yeah, it's so, it's so sick.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: It's so sick.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: And like, uh, I grew up um going to Hebrew school and learning about the Holocaust.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: It's such a formula, it's such a framework.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: And it's just like a scapegoat, you know, it's just looking for a scapegoat.
22:21
SPEAKER_02: And and no one's coming to save us.
22:22
SPEAKER_02: So here, you know, here's the thing is as much as we're now, you know, I think it is important that people like you and I connect the dots for folks.
22:31
SPEAKER_02: Connect the Roe v.
22:33
SPEAKER_02: The minute we lost our reproductive rights, we people saw us as less human.
22:40
SPEAKER_02: Because if you can't control your body, you really can't control anything.
22:45
SPEAKER_02: And I think the minute that that happened in America, you actually start that that's what's led us from there to the rape academy.
22:52
SPEAKER_02: And all of these things in between, the SAVE Act, the getting rid of DENI, the NASA taking off like female scientists from I mean, all of it is interconnected.
23:04
SPEAKER_02: And so now here we are, right?
23:06
SPEAKER_02: And I think as women have, if these things have happened, we haven't risen up in the way that we need to.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: My point is in this moment, the people that are actually telling the truth, bravery doesn't feel good all the time.
23:22
SPEAKER_02: Courage, and we haven't taught people that we certainly haven't taught women that.
23:26
SPEAKER_02: Because you have to ask yourself, right?
23:28
SPEAKER_02: Like, where is the revolution?
23:32
SPEAKER_02: Where's because no one's coming to save us?
23:34
SPEAKER_02: We have to say, we have to stand up and say enough.
23:38
SPEAKER_02: And when we do, it's going to be done.
23:42
SPEAKER_02: And I I do think we're reaching that point because and because I now have like my friends who are not political, who are not like, you know, and are are are being like, wait a minute, what what's going on here?
23:55
SPEAKER_01: Yep, yep.
23:56
SPEAKER_02: Like there's a turning point that's happening.
23:58
SPEAKER_02: I mean, the thing that pisses me off so much right now is is the algorithms.
24:01
SPEAKER_02: Like the algorithms are that are like controlled by five to six companies, right?
24:06
SPEAKER_02: Are actually making us hate each other.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: We don't want to hate each other.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: Like, why can't I very simply open up my app and Instagram and say, do not curate my feed?
24:14
SPEAKER_02: I know.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: Why can't I?
24:15
SPEAKER_02: I know.
24:16
SPEAKER_02: Why can't I just press a button?
24:17
SPEAKER_02: I want to see my friends like going to the beach.
24:19
SPEAKER_02: 100%.
24:20
SPEAKER_02: Or I just want to see what I want.
24:21
SPEAKER_02: Well, I want to see what everybody sees.
24:22
SPEAKER_02: I I mean, I don't want you to choose for me what I should see.
24:26
SPEAKER_02: Like that should be something.
24:28
SPEAKER_02: Like, why are we not legislating that?
24:30
SPEAKER_02: And I think that this is why money in politics is like deeply problematic, right?
24:36
SPEAKER_02: Because who's fighting for the people?
24:37
SPEAKER_02: And listen, we are, you know, part of the depravity that's happening in our country is because of privilege and class.
24:44
SPEAKER_02: Like we have actually like had no, you know, like you should be ashamed that you feel like you're you're a billionaire and you feel are more concerned with having to make more money rather than destroying our country.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
25:01
SPEAKER_02: Like to me, there's there's an embarrassment, a shame, but that should that should come from that.
25:05
SPEAKER_02: Like, because I I think it's like if this country has given you so much to give you that much money, what are you doing to make the world a better place?
25:14
SPEAKER_01: No, I it it is so they are so unwell.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: It connects to the rape academy to me because they are raping the country.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: They are destroying it, they are violating it, they are extracting from it, and they are hoping to leave it for a carcass to go to fucking Mars.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: This is rape culture.
25:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:32
SPEAKER_01: They are the this is it's it's not um, it's anti-creativity, it's anti-humanity.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: AI isn't an invention, it's a median data set from all of our creation that we don't even realize we're fucking doing.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: Talking about uh connecting the dots.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: I do analysis, I do therapy multiple times a week.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: My analyst is so fucking brilliant.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: And I'm I was talking about um, and this has also has been helping me just get off social media so much more, talking about realizing, talking about it over and over, that waking up and opening Instagram makes me feel totally disturbed for the rest of the day.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: And he was saying, well, every every single action, every scroll, every pause, every like, every comment is causing a 0.0001 penny in Zuckerberg's pocket.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: 0.0001 penny in Musk's pocket.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: These are systems that are rigged to make the and it's totally unregulated, as you said.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: I do want to say, you know, AOC brought Zuckerberg to court to break it up.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: Lena Kahn was trying to, you know, uh break it up.
26:37
SPEAKER_01: And she will one day.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: She will.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: We will get back there because nobody even, nobody wants this.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: I nobody want nobody wants this.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: Nobody wants this.
26:45
SPEAKER_02: There's just nobody out there that's fighting for, you know, the regular guy.
26:50
SPEAKER_02: You don't see how you don't see leaders who are who are doing I think the problem is, listen, I've I've seen this because I've been in this industry for a long time.
26:56
SPEAKER_02: It's just like people don't understand it.
26:58
SPEAKER_02: So it's really hard.
26:59
SPEAKER_02: This is why I'm on the side with AI, is it's here.
27:03
SPEAKER_02: And so, like, we're having this discussion about like, how do we get rid of it?
27:07
SPEAKER_02: You can't get rid of it, it's here.
27:08
SPEAKER_02: To me, how can I and you and the people that how do we have access and how can we shape the platform?
27:16
SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm concerned with.
27:18
SPEAKER_02: Because to me, it's very similar to what happened with Web 2.0.
27:22
SPEAKER_02: And there's a reason why, like, 44% of Americans that make less than 30% still don't have access to the internet.
27:29
SPEAKER_01: One second.
27:30
SPEAKER_01: What's Web 2.0?
27:31
SPEAKER_02: Well, Web 2.0 was like the OG internet, right?
27:34
SPEAKER_02: Was like when broadband access came out.
27:37
SPEAKER_02: Post dial-up.
27:38
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
27:39
SPEAKER_02: Right.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: Post like we're like you can see a painting from Italy right now.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: Right.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: So Web 2.0 is when it becomes more residential and citizen access.
27:49
SPEAKER_02: And at that time, we were having a similar conversation that we're having with AI now, which was like, oh my God, I don't know if this is good.
27:56
SPEAKER_02: Should you allow to bring a computer in a classroom?
27:59
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't good.
28:00
SPEAKER_02: Right.
28:01
SPEAKER_02: But So we know what happens with AI.
28:03
SPEAKER_02: We know what happens.
28:04
SPEAKER_02: We know what happens, but like the point is that you didn't, we couldn't stop it.
28:08
SPEAKER_02: And so you we are still trying to catch up in terms of access to both poor people, people of color, and women.
28:18
SPEAKER_02: Right?
28:19
SPEAKER_02: Because we're the we're the ones who can see what's coming.
28:24
SPEAKER_02: And so we're the ones like, uh-uh, no, thank you.
28:27
SPEAKER_02: Right.
28:27
SPEAKER_02: But then it inevitably comes and we're left out.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: And then it becomes about the diversity of ownership such that it's not just continuing white supremacist, capitalist, racist, misogynist, patriarchal rape culture.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: If it stays in those hands, then the tool be stays that way, which it currently clearly is.
28:46
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
28:47
SPEAKER_02: And like the example I was, I mean, this is like someone like so to me, it's like less about usage and now about creation, right?
28:55
SPEAKER_02: Like I want women, like for example, what we're doing with you know, moms first and like paid leave.
28:59
SPEAKER_02: It's like we're built a tool so that every family can go to the government website and see if they're eligible.
29:04
SPEAKER_02: Like if you and I build tools on AI, those are the kinds of things we're gonna do.
29:09
SPEAKER_02: Can we take it back one second?
29:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: Moms first built a tool to see if you can get if you're eligible for paid leave.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: Just talk about that for a moment.
29:15
SPEAKER_02: So, like, so I'll give you this is a good usage of generative AI, right?
29:19
SPEAKER_02: So typically, if you go to a government website, it's so damn confusing.
29:24
SPEAKER_02: And let's just say I'm about to have a baby and I want to and I live in a state that's gonna give me$10,000, right?
29:33
SPEAKER_02: So I can take time off to spend with my child.
29:36
SPEAKER_02: I go down the I go on the New York State website and I'm I work, you know what I mean?
29:41
SPEAKER_02: I work at like at a pizza restaurant.
29:44
SPEAKER_02: I don't got a lot of time to be on an on the computer for hours trying to figure out whether I'm eligible.
29:49
SPEAKER_02: So I I spend a couple of minutes, I can't figure it out, and I just give up.
29:52
SPEAKER_02: So I don't even apply.
29:54
SPEAKER_02: So that$10,000 that I that I'm due, I don't get access to.
30:00
SPEAKER_02: Generative AI is a good use case in making it easier for you to go on in a few minutes and and and it tells you.
30:08
SPEAKER_02: Convinced.
30:09
SPEAKER_02: Right?
30:09
SPEAKER_02: Okay, right.
30:10
SPEAKER_02: So Johnny.
30:11
SPEAKER_02: So like okay.
30:12
SPEAKER_02: So we built this tool.
30:13
SPEAKER_02: Moms first.
30:14
SPEAKER_02: Mom's first.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: Your organization built a tool.
30:16
SPEAKER_02: And now it's, you know, up, it's in every state you can use it.
30:19
SPEAKER_01: So so where how do you go to it?
30:21
SPEAKER_02: Paidleave.ai.
30:22
SPEAKER_02: Um, very simple, right?
30:24
SPEAKER_02: For that.
30:25
SPEAKER_02: And and so my point is this like these are the kinds of things that we would build.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: Right.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: Right.
30:33
SPEAKER_02: And so for us to be able to build those things, you have to have some experience, exposure, and comfort with AI.
30:42
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32:15
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32:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, let me also go back about you running for Congress.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, what year was it that the first South Asian American woman ran for Congress?
32:27
SPEAKER_01: No, 2010.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: 2010.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: I ran.
32:29
SPEAKER_01: Girl, what are we talking about?
32:32
SPEAKER_01: That's fucking crazy.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: I know shit is backwards.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: I know things are just way more racist, way more misogynist than we ever really even realized to different degrees across the uh identity spectrum.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: But 2010, that's fucking crazy.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: That reminds me of Andy Kim, who's senator in New Jersey, second Korean American to be in Senate.
32:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was amazing.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: And it was like I lost miserably.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's but let's talk about how this affected, let's connect the dots between your congressional run to Zo Run Mam Dani's mayoral win in New York City.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: So when I ran for office, um, I was the first South Asian American woman to run.
33:09
SPEAKER_02: I don't know, very few people have, and no one had run really in in in in New York.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: And then once I ran for, after I ran for Congress, I ran for public advocate.
33:17
SPEAKER_02: I was the first citywide.
33:20
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
33:20
SPEAKER_02: I had a lot of losses.
33:22
SPEAKER_02: But you know, here's the thing, Alana, like people, you know, there wasn't a South Asian base.
33:27
SPEAKER_02: There wasn't a South Asian, because oftentimes when you run, you gotta have like a base of people that you know are gonna be like ride or die and come out.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: And in my in my in my races, we were building that base.
33:38
SPEAKER_02: We were building the first walk sheet for South Asians.
33:40
SPEAKER_02: What's that?
33:41
SPEAKER_02: Walk sheet is like a list of like registered voters that are South Asian, that vote Democrat, that would vote in a primary.
33:49
SPEAKER_02: Like no one had put that list of people together.
33:51
SPEAKER_02: And walk sheet, like you're walking around getting people.
33:53
SPEAKER_02: You walk around and you're like, okay, I'm in, you know, I'm here in Brooklyn, like, okay, how many people on the street, you I mean, are and remember, if you're a primary voter, that means you're like you you really vote.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: And also, if if I can just even step this out further.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: So, or like even sit in it for another moment.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: Nobody had done this for the South Asian voting base.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: Nobody had done this for the South Asian voting base.
34:13
SPEAKER_02: And no one had, you know, whether it was a walksheet or a phone bake, or even having literature in Punjabi and Bengali and Hindi, and like, or or mobilizing in mosques or, you know, temples and like getting people together and saying.
34:28
SPEAKER_02: And so this was really important.
34:29
SPEAKER_02: And this is like Zaran and I actually have a very similar background.
34:32
SPEAKER_02: Like both of our parents escaped, you know, a dictator in Uganda.
34:38
SPEAKER_02: And so we both came from generations of family that lived in Africa, that voted there, that had family there, that had, you know, roots there, that spoke the language.
34:46
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
34:47
SPEAKER_02: And one day somebody came to power and said, bye-bye.
34:51
SPEAKER_02: And if you don't leave in 90 days, you're shot on spot.
34:53
SPEAKER_02: And I think for both Zaran and I, that had a profound impact on our need to participate in the political system, to have people understand their rights, you know what I mean?
35:05
SPEAKER_02: To know what it was like, right?
35:07
SPEAKER_02: To like have control, right, over their their destiny and their future.
35:10
SPEAKER_02: And so that is I definitely you know what inspired me, I think, to get into politics and very much what inspired him.
35:16
SPEAKER_02: But when I ran, nobody had done that before.
35:18
SPEAKER_02: And so you learned a lot, you know, and we made a lot of like mistakes, or we you had to build that muscle.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:25
SPEAKER_02: And so, and even something is like I remember going into like, you know, you know, these apartments in Queens and I would walk in, and there'd be a little girl that had Rishmasajani's, like her, her, you know, her my poster like on her wall.
35:37
SPEAKER_02: Like I was like a K-pop star, right?
35:40
SPEAKER_02: It was just because they'd never seen that before.
35:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm you know, women who would bring my literature to the ballot boxes, like, I just want to make sure I stay I spell your name right.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
35:49
SPEAKER_02: And it was and it was, you know, I lost and I lost twice, and it was it was heartbreaking because I, you know, I and people would say, Well, you should have changed your name.
36:03
SPEAKER_02: You should have changed your religion, right?
36:06
SPEAKER_02: You you just there's so many things, but there's so many things, and I was like, is that maybe you know a South Asian never gonna be able to win?
36:15
SPEAKER_02: And then Zaron comes around and he runs an unabashed campaign about being South Asian.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: I mean the Punjabi music, you know, just hitting it in the back, right?
36:29
SPEAKER_02: Runs with full pride and in the God he believes in, right?
36:33
SPEAKER_02: Runs just unabashedly, right?
36:36
SPEAKER_02: Um, as a South as a proud South Asian.
36:41
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, I think I can cry right now thinking about it, because you know, for so many of us who had tried, it's like, you know, we had to walk so he could run.
36:52
SPEAKER_02: And I see that as a gift, right?
36:55
SPEAKER_02: It's such a gift to be able to open the door for someone behind you and then to just also watch, um, you know, then watch him actually, you know, put into place like a policy that I've been fighting for, like child care.
37:10
SPEAKER_02: It's like it's funny, God works in very interesting ways.
37:13
SPEAKER_01: And you think like it's this loss at the time, but then the like all that you've done with mom's first since, and then it like, I don't know, kind of like clicking back into place.
37:21
SPEAKER_01: And it's like it makes sense.
37:23
SPEAKER_01: And also like, so Ron's campaign, I think, was like increasingly, and he started off as himself, you know, authentic, but like increasingly becoming himself more and more, layers peeling back, such that it's the perfect example.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: He's the perfect example of being proudly within who you really are, your boundaries and limitations as one person.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: He can't be everybody, he can only be him.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, as uh as a Ashkenazi Jew, you know, the conversations about um our uh inextricable intertwined safety, Muslims and Jews.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: Yes, that aside, being a different, coming from a different place and a different identity, I was prouder to be who I am, to see it modeled in someone.
38:08
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
38:09
SPEAKER_01: To just for me to see somebody be a proud, progressive, Ashkenazi Jew, okay, that's great.
38:15
SPEAKER_01: Me too, I can do that.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: But to see like, to be able to um compare, almost like uh compare our notes and see uh somebody different from me feeling the same pride, it's it's so effective.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: It's so effective in mobilizing.
38:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because and I I know that we always say right at Marion, like you cannot be what you cannot see that wonderful quote.
38:35
SPEAKER_02: And I think the reality is is like, you know, for so long in my life, I was a you know, I grew up in like, you know, a suburb in in in Chicago, Illinois, one of the few brown families.
38:46
SPEAKER_02: You know, my mother would wear her sari and her bindi and you know, make Kitri and Dal and Shabadi and put it in my lunchbox.
38:52
SPEAKER_02: And all I wanted to do was be white.
38:54
SPEAKER_02: Just wanted to fit in.
38:56
SPEAKER_02: I just didn't want to be bullied at school or harassed at school.
38:59
SPEAKER_02: And why'd you name me Rishma?
39:01
SPEAKER_02: Why are you know?
39:02
SPEAKER_02: And I just, so I think in in many ways, kind of getting to this point now where you actually are celebrated for being those things.
39:11
SPEAKER_02: Are people want to learn about your culture, your religion, your food, you know, it's just it's such a it's such you feel free.
39:20
SPEAKER_02: And and it's so sad, you know, right now what you see happening, you know, with ice is that again they're trying to put people back in the closet, put them back into their shadows, put them back into feeling fearful or embarrassed or scared.
39:34
SPEAKER_02: And it's just to see this happen kind of in my lifetime is just devastating.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: It's so volatile because it's it's um more celebration of diversity and then true execution of diversity.
39:48
SPEAKER_01: 100%.
39:49
SPEAKER_02: I mean I remember most recently I was taking my dad to a Bears game in January, and we're like, you know, get in the car and we're driving, and he like pats his thing.
39:59
SPEAKER_02: He says, No, beta, wait, wait.
40:00
SPEAKER_02: I I don't have I need my wallet, I need my ID.
40:05
SPEAKER_02: And I said, Dad, you're fine.
40:06
SPEAKER_02: He's like, no.
40:08
SPEAKER_02: Ice will be there, and I I need my wallet.
40:11
SPEAKER_02: Go back.
40:12
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I I I just burst into tears.
40:16
SPEAKER_01: Where you grew up.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: Where you grew up.
40:18
SPEAKER_01: Decked.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: This man who is like and contributed to the hundred percent community and raised kids who went on to get yes, fucking free childcare for New York.
40:26
SPEAKER_02: You know, I I mean it's just but he is not he is and to have this 81-year-old man have so much fear.
40:36
SPEAKER_02: And it and he's not wrong.
40:38
SPEAKER_02: Right.
40:38
SPEAKER_02: He is not wrong.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: Right.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: Uh but I I I guess I have to believe, I have to believe it is the overlords, it's the few people controlling the narrative.
40:49
SPEAKER_01: We can call it the algorithm, we can call it uh the mainstream media.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: They're controlling the narrative.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that they're actually winning.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: And the the proof I would point to that it's not actually true about what's on the ground is the elections that we've had that have swung.
41:07
SPEAKER_01: If if they haven't won, the points have swung in the 30s, in the the high 30s, these points in Marjorie Taylor Green's district.
41:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, but also, you know, Wisconsin and whatever, whatever elections that actually have been won, Zoran.
41:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they were they were trying their darndest to make him seem like some, you know, with their Islamophobia and this and that and socialism.
41:29
SPEAKER_01: Nope.
41:29
SPEAKER_01: Like you can't, you can't tell me, you can't tell me I'm not seeing the person that I'm seeing.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, but then also, of course, Minnesota.
41:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:37
SPEAKER_02: And listen, I think the thing is is we're we're just in a middle, we're we are in a, we are about to enter a class war because, you know, the reality is it's too much.
41:47
SPEAKER_02: The difference and the the things that people have to do every single day.
41:51
SPEAKER_02: You know, people can't afford groceries, they can't afford to take a vacation, they can't afford the basics.
41:55
SPEAKER_02: You know, 40% of Americans can't afford the essentials.
41:59
SPEAKER_02: And it's getting worse and worse and worse and worse.
42:02
SPEAKER_02: And then you have, you know, the Lauren Sanchez, Bezos, uh being being unabashed, right, about her wealth.
42:11
SPEAKER_02: And and I and the disconnect, right, between how that makes people feel who are waking up every day or hardworking or decent.
42:23
SPEAKER_02: And just this acknowledgement that it's it's too much.
42:26
SPEAKER_02: You know, that the difference between, you know, it's too much.
42:29
SPEAKER_02: Like, again, I'm the product of pe parents who came here with$10 in their pockets, who worked really hard, and who in a gener, you know, in a in one generation, yeah, could have their daughters, right, have, you know, march up into the middle class.
42:44
SPEAKER_02: That is what the American dream is.
42:45
SPEAKER_02: Every day, the CEOs of America should be thinking about how do I make that possible for everybody?
42:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
42:50
SPEAKER_02: That's your job.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: Right.
42:52
SPEAKER_02: That's what these tax breaks are all about.
42:54
SPEAKER_02: Right.
42:54
SPEAKER_02: It's to figure that out for everybody else, not to get richer.
42:58
SPEAKER_01: But it's it's just, I mean, that does not that that has led us here.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: Like the CEOs, I do not believe, are the ones to do this.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: These are just greedy people who are incentivized to have no regulation.
43:10
SPEAKER_01: It's our government that is meant to be filled with public servants.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: Granted, it was initially a document written for enslaving people, stealing land.
43:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's not like it's ever, we know this.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: It's not like it's ever been um a real freedom document or framework.
43:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: And m so many of our founding fathers were literally enslaving people.
43:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:31
SPEAKER_01: All that to be said, we have a legacy in our country of uh human rights, of civil rights, of human rights, of creating unions and uh even even the um this I can I I can claim to be true about America.
43:48
SPEAKER_01: We want to figure out what liberty is.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: We want to think about what it means to feel and be free.
43:56
SPEAKER_01: Bar the genocidal framework against black people in this country.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: Uh uh and keep holding it, keep holding a genocidal framework against Native Americans in this country.
44:05
SPEAKER_01: And yet still, there's a conversation about what it means to be free.
44:09
SPEAKER_01: So if that's really, that is really at the seeds planted in this country, you know, I don't I don't think that a profit structure like companies are are the way to go.
44:19
SPEAKER_01: I think it's the political system, which is just fucking disgusting.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: It's filled with the Epstein files right now.
44:25
SPEAKER_01: So I'm actually embarrassed to say that I know not have faith or believe in it, but I'm like, that's the framework within to work.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: That that's all.
44:33
SPEAKER_01: I don't know about faith and believing.
44:34
SPEAKER_02: But listen, I I struggle with this because like my father will tell you, you know, you make$40,000 a year, he will tell you he's in the top 1%.
44:42
SPEAKER_02: Because there's something about that, there's something about capitalism that's tied to the American dream.
44:48
SPEAKER_02: And so I do believe in compassionate capitalism.
44:51
SPEAKER_02: I do believe that we can fix, you know what I mean?
44:54
SPEAKER_02: I believe it exists.
44:56
SPEAKER_02: I believe that it exists, but we'm majority women leaders.
44:58
SPEAKER_02: Correct.
44:58
SPEAKER_02: We have to be committed to it and we have to, we have to have a sense of like what your responsibility is to others.
45:06
SPEAKER_02: Like if you're not gonna actually make it possible for everyone to actually achieve it, then what is our responsibility?
45:12
SPEAKER_02: And it's fascinating to me.
45:13
SPEAKER_02: It's like we have no problem.
45:15
SPEAKER_02: It's the the same billionaires have no problem talking about it in terms of giving everybody basic income, right?
45:22
SPEAKER_02: Because they have to justify making billions off this technology and just say, well, you know what we're gonna do?
45:27
SPEAKER_02: We're gonna give that, we're gonna give everybody basic income.
45:29
SPEAKER_02: So it's fine.
45:30
SPEAKER_02: But you're the same people that won't even vote for tax increase for child care and Medicare and Medicare, you know, like I don't believe you.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: I I don't believe you.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: I agree.
45:39
SPEAKER_01: And for me, I guess I'm gonna go back and say it's not for me, it's not compassionate capitalism.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: I don't care what capitalism is doing, it's uh pro-democracy, democratic socialism.
45:49
SPEAKER_01: Like that's what I feel is the system to work within to achieve compassionate capitalism.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I mean, you know, it has to be regulated.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: Lena Khan is the fucking man, man.
45:59
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, seeing AOC put Mark Zuckerberg on trial, it didn't go the way that she was hoping.
46:04
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, I mean, at least he was on trial.
46:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:07
SPEAKER_01: At least he was recorded in court saying that, yes, Facebook started as an app to rank women's looks.
46:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and the reality is, is like, I I think the the importance of regulation is like, for example, the Instagram, they very early on when they built the tool, they tested the like button and they tested it with focus groups of girls.
46:26
SPEAKER_02: And they realized that if they put a like button there, girls, because we are socialized to be perfect, will constantly keep coming because they will, and it will actually degrade their mental health.
46:38
SPEAKER_02: They knew this and they did it anyway.
46:41
unknown: Oh.
46:42
SPEAKER_02: And so that is the importance of regulation, right?
46:45
SPEAKER_02: Is because you don't get to create a suicide epidemic with girls under the age of 18.
46:51
SPEAKER_02: You don't get to do that.
46:53
SPEAKER_02: Like, that is not a democracy.
46:55
SPEAKER_02: And so to me, I I think it's like we have got to be organized, right?
47:03
SPEAKER_02: I mean, listen, I think what Jonathan Haidt has done about regulating phones in schools shows the power of movement and parents to change something.
47:12
SPEAKER_01: Jonathan Haidt is the author of The Anxious Generation and now the new book, The Amazing Generation, because he has um used, you know, uh his scientific research about uh mental health, uh, how meant how mental health has been poorly affected by social media on kids and now has uh turned it into policy.
47:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right, yep, by leading a movement to get phones out of schools.
47:33
SPEAKER_01: Right.
47:34
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, that was like very quick impact.
47:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
47:37
SPEAKER_02: Very quickly.
47:37
SPEAKER_01: And you're saying that this is the power of communities and parents organizing.
47:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like we can do things, we can change this.
47:44
SPEAKER_01: And quickly too.
47:46
SPEAKER_01: We honestly can quickly.
47:47
SPEAKER_01: And that's another thing that Mayor Montani has proven progress can be quick.
47:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:51
SPEAKER_01: You know, and we have to remember these things that have been quick.
47:55
SPEAKER_01: Trump term one to term two, there was so much progress in in uh Biden's administration, especially for the climate, closing the racial wealth gap.
48:04
SPEAKER_01: And then the, of course, the destruction is so much easier than the creativity, but we can do this.
48:08
SPEAKER_01: We can.
48:08
SPEAKER_02: And that's why I think keeping your eyes on the culture wars is really important because part of I think how you win these things is when you depoliticize them, when you're able to build the biggest possible tent.
48:19
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
48:20
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, that's what we need to do with both, you know, pay with paid leave and childcare and and some of these other policies is basically show the con, show the places where they divide us by making us judge each other.
48:32
SPEAKER_02: And when it prevents us from getting the numbers that we need to get this done.
48:37
SPEAKER_02: You know, phones in school was not politicized.
48:39
SPEAKER_00: Right.
48:40
SPEAKER_02: And that's why Jonathan, I think, was able to do this very quickly.
48:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:44
SPEAKER_02: And so I think we have to look for, I think, and climate in many ways became depoliticized.
48:48
SPEAKER_01: Right.
48:49
SPEAKER_02: Right.
48:49
SPEAKER_02: And so there are lots of, I think, opportunities for us, right, to get these wins when we actually look for the broadest possible movement to build around.
48:58
SPEAKER_01: One thing I want to talk about is we're both working moms who also do grassroots organizing.
49:03
SPEAKER_01: And we've been in touch a lot uh this year as we've um started building partnership here.
49:09
SPEAKER_01: No judgment to moms who do not work, right?
49:12
SPEAKER_01: Zero.
49:13
SPEAKER_01: But what do you like about being a working mom?
49:15
SPEAKER_01: And what does it feel like to you?
49:18
SPEAKER_02: You know, the thing is, is I am highly I love to work and I love my kids.
49:25
SPEAKER_02: Like I I wake up every day and I feel so blessed that you know, God has given me the ability to use my voice to, you know, to fight for those who don't have one.
49:38
SPEAKER_02: And um, I also just love being a mom.
49:41
SPEAKER_02: And so to me, it it is about finding where you where you get joy.
49:46
SPEAKER_02: And what I have learned in my journey from CEO of Girls Who Code to building moms first is like I can actually build a world where you don't have to choose.
49:55
SPEAKER_02: I can build a workplace where all the moms that work for me, or even the non-moms that work for me that are taking care of their elderly parents or caregivers, can actually feel like they can live.
50:09
SPEAKER_02: Like that to me is like my proudest accomplishment and achievement right now.
50:15
SPEAKER_02: Like I just call bullshit on like us constantly trying to like quite frankly be these capitalist men.
50:22
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
50:22
SPEAKER_02: You know, in in in this perception that you have to be have FaceTime, you have to be always on, and you have to have your phone on in the weekends.
50:28
SPEAKER_02: And no, you don't, they don't either.
50:30
SPEAKER_02: Right.
50:31
SPEAKER_02: Some of those men are the laziest men I ever, the ones that are telling you to come back to the office are the ones who are the laziest people I know.
50:37
SPEAKER_01: And I'm also like, girl, get a hobby.
50:40
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
50:40
SPEAKER_01: If you don't have a family or whatever the fuck, get a hobby.
50:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, stop working.
50:44
SPEAKER_01: It's ugly to never be able to stop working.
50:47
SPEAKER_01: It's it's ugly to not be able to draw the line and take pleasure for yourself.
50:51
SPEAKER_01: It's it's weird to turn it off.
50:53
SPEAKER_01: It's weird to turn it off.
50:56
SPEAKER_01: You do so much work for moms and women, but I wonder, given the chance to tuck to women younger than us, the generation younger than us, Gen Z.
51:08
SPEAKER_01: Well, what do you say to them about how to how to survive this world and eventually thrive?
51:14
SPEAKER_02: I, you know, what I say to them is like I really want them to be courageous and brave.
51:24
SPEAKER_02: And I think part of being brave for me means I gotta do things because it's the right thing to do and not because I care what people think or will say.
51:35
SPEAKER_02: And that means you have to open yourself up to attacks and to not feeling good.
51:42
SPEAKER_02: And so that's why to me, how do you at the earliest possible ages unleash women from that who have been so programmed to do everything for everyone else besides themselves?
51:53
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes, yeah, I mean, you know, I remember when I was that age, I didn't even know what I liked, what I wanted.
52:00
SPEAKER_02: Because I was so programmed to just care what other people thought and to not do anything that was gonna draw out of the lines.
52:08
SPEAKER_02: And so that has been like a journey that I've been on to like free myself to figure out what does Reshma want?
52:16
SPEAKER_02: What do I like?
52:17
SPEAKER_02: What do I want to say?
52:19
SPEAKER_02: What do I want to be doing?
52:21
SPEAKER_02: And I think once you find what that is, that's when you're in flow.
52:26
SPEAKER_02: You still feel you're on that journey.
52:28
SPEAKER_02: I still feel like I'm on that journey.
52:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm closer than I've ever been, but I still feel like I'm on that journey.
52:35
SPEAKER_02: I mean, listen, I recently went to something called Hoffman Institute uh and did nine days of just like intensive, because you know, intensive work, I think to really again go back to, you know, part part of what I really struggle with, Alana, is like, you know, I never think I'm good enough.
52:53
SPEAKER_02: I never think that like, even if you ask me, gosh, don't you feel like you've achieved so much?
52:56
SPEAKER_02: I'd like to know I haven't.
52:58
SPEAKER_02: Right.
52:58
SPEAKER_02: I'd and I I genuinely have to, and and part of that is being raised as an immigrant, being raised as a brown woman, like being raised, like again, in in so many different, I think, in a moment in time where you are constantly not meant to feel like you are worthy or good.
53:14
SPEAKER_02: And so I have to find that within.
53:15
SPEAKER_02: And so that is like a journey, you know what I mean, that I'm on, that I'm closer to, but I have to do a lot of work on.
53:22
SPEAKER_01: I think that's like just always like so um, so effective for women communicating to each other that it's programming that we still are, you know, still deprogramming.
53:34
SPEAKER_01: People see, especially as a comedian, you know, it's like I'm I'm creating joy and laughter.
53:39
SPEAKER_01: And my character, Alana Wexler on Broad City, was so confident.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: And so when I talk to women about not being confident or still deprogramming it and still working on myself, it's like surprising to them because we idealize each other.
53:53
SPEAKER_01: I do this with you where I'm like, oh, Rushma's got it all figured out.
53:56
SPEAKER_01: She knows exactly what, because it's just doing the bidding of the minority in the majority of power who wants us to be against each other, exactly as you're talking about in No Country for Mothers.
54:07
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like we're doing, I'm doing the um the hate mongering for them by saying, well, Rushma's better than me.
54:14
SPEAKER_01: She does it like this.
54:15
SPEAKER_01: I, I, if only I could figure out how to do it the way that I imagine you do, or something like that.
54:20
SPEAKER_01: I think it's really valuable to admit, like, you know, we, and especially with social media, we have this like very literal fake front that has nothing, it's virtual reality.
54:32
SPEAKER_01: It's not reality.
54:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, we convince ourselves that it's reality because why the fuck would I be spending time on this stupid thing?
54:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's just valuable to hear you say that.
54:43
SPEAKER_01: I yeah.
54:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think one of the reasons why I feel so um connected to you, my my my spiritual coach always says, go find your mirrors.
54:52
SPEAKER_02: And you know, it's interesting.
54:54
SPEAKER_02: I think for so long I needed the accolades, the credentials to make me feel like I was smart enough and I was good enough.
55:08
SPEAKER_02: And those accolades and credentials, you get them when you are behaving, when you are a good girl.
55:17
SPEAKER_02: And right now I am absolutely in my misbehaving stage, in my truth-telling stage, in my anti-elite stage, in the moment where I do get asked to do far less speeches because they don't know what I'm gonna freaking say.
55:33
SPEAKER_02: Right?
55:34
SPEAKER_02: I don't get the awards, right?
55:38
SPEAKER_02: Because, like, let's be honest, right now, everyone is afraid of saying anything that is gonna piss Trump off.
55:45
SPEAKER_02: And I'm the lady who asked him a question that really pissed him off.
55:48
SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna tell the truth, and we're and you're doing the same thing right now.
55:52
SPEAKER_02: So for me, where I know that I am doing the right thing is like the DMs that fill my life, the women who stopped me on the street and who say, Thank you, thank you, thank you for seeing me.
56:04
SPEAKER_02: I mean, in all like this, like in this, I can feel this like sense of intensity and emotion because sometimes you're like, Oh my God, is I mean, and and my coach always tells me, like, there's always a price you pay for telling the truth.
56:17
SPEAKER_02: Gandhi paid a price, Mandela paid a price, anyone, Colin Kaepernick paid a price, anyone who has told the truth has paid a price.
56:26
SPEAKER_01: You know, when you were saying earlier what that you would say to young women, be courageous even if it doesn't feel good.
56:32
SPEAKER_01: It's like I would say it feels good in a different way because you can be paid and you can you could have a I don't know what, you know, billionaire CEO who doesn't pay their employees well, take you to dinner and it doesn't feel good.
56:44
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't feel good.
56:44
SPEAKER_01: It feels fucking weird, it feels unsexy, and it's not fun.
56:49
SPEAKER_01: No, it's not fun.
56:51
SPEAKER_01: Like personally, you know, I just to live in the truth in a shared reality where most people, the majority of people, have good hearts and minds, even if they're unwell, to to be in that reality, that's what makes me feel good and helps me like sleep at night.
57:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, and and they then that's and I think it's very important for then for you to find both your mirrors and yeah.
57:17
SPEAKER_02: I I wrote this, I went, I was, we were texting, I was um, my friend Christina I got to see her um take off at Artemis, and there's all these things like my Cy, my lung young one had a concussion, and we're in like an Orlando ER room till four in the morning.
57:31
SPEAKER_02: The launch is at 12, and like I had literally moved mountains to get us there.
57:37
SPEAKER_02: And I'm just praying, I'm like, please, Cy, just be good tomorrow because I need to be at this launch.
57:42
SPEAKER_02: And God willing, he wakes up, he's good.
57:45
SPEAKER_02: We're sitting at the launch.
57:46
SPEAKER_02: It's like this beautiful day on like the NASA cause of way, it's full of like scientists, like just every nerd was just there, some family members and friends.
57:54
SPEAKER_02: And I'm sitting there, I'm exhausted, I am like sleep deprived, my babies are there, we're we're watching her and shoot off to the moon.
58:02
SPEAKER_02: And I'm just screaming her name, right?
58:05
SPEAKER_02: Christina, Christina.
58:07
SPEAKER_02: And I just I needed to in this moment to witness a woman live her dream and her potential.
58:16
SPEAKER_02: I needed to just see it with my own eyes, record it, tell everybody about it.
58:22
SPEAKER_02: And I needed because I needed to know that they cannot stop us, that we are unstoppable.
58:30
SPEAKER_02: And I really feel like for the next however year, many years we're in this, like every opportunity we have.
58:36
SPEAKER_02: That's why I'm like, send me all your shows, girl.
58:38
SPEAKER_02: Like every opportunity that we have to witness one another's potential and greatness and voice, like we have to.
58:46
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
58:48
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
58:50
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Reshma.
58:52
SPEAKER_01: It's it's such a pleasure to grow our friendship and relationship.
58:55
SPEAKER_01: It has so much to it.
58:57
SPEAKER_01: You know, I I thank you so much for coming here today.
58:59
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
59:01
SPEAKER_01: Damn, isn't she a fucking badass?
59:03
SPEAKER_01: She rolled up.
59:04
SPEAKER_01: I was like, okay, leather jacket, okay, New York working mom.
59:07
SPEAKER_01: I'm loving it.
59:08
SPEAKER_01: And that was um, I needed that today.
59:10
SPEAKER_01: I needed to sort that out.
59:11
SPEAKER_01: She's so smart and she's so strong.
59:13
SPEAKER_01: And she also, like just that point about being brave, it's not hard.
59:16
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
59:17
SPEAKER_01: That you know the movie Brave with like the red-haired girl.
59:20
SPEAKER_01: Like, if you I think a saying from it is if it if you weren't scared, it wouldn't be brave.
59:24
SPEAKER_01: And I know it's an animated feature film, but it really means a lot to me.
59:28
SPEAKER_01: If you were if it weren't scary, it wouldn't be brave.
59:30
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
59:31
SPEAKER_01: Reshmas how Johnny is brave and a brave leader, and I'm so grateful she came in today.
59:35
SPEAKER_01: I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did having it.
59:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, this has been a uh entirely human-produced production.
59:44
SPEAKER_01: This is a Star Pix production.
59:46
SPEAKER_01: We love people.
59:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, I want to thank my creative producers today, Annika Carlton, David Rookland, Madeline Kim, Glenis Mahar, and Kelsey Kiley.
59:54
SPEAKER_01: I want to thank our editor, Tova Libowitz, he the dude.
59:57
SPEAKER_01: All right.
59:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I want to thank, okay, the people who made this look, the good people who made this look and sound so damn good, Kevin Deming, Lexa Krebs, and today Lily Van Lewen.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_01: Um and Don Hur is the band who makes the musical outro sting.
1:00:12
SPEAKER_01: That's my brother LA Blazer's new band.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_01: Check it out with Jimmy Hines and Derek Muro.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_01: Long Island in the house.
1:00:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think that's it.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_01: If you like this show, if you like listening to it, you like watching it, like and subscribe.
1:00:26
SPEAKER_01: It really means something and makes a difference as we build this community.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_01: And listen, you know, we really are gonna get through this.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_01: I some days, some days I'm just like, damn, it's just so ugly.
1:00:39
SPEAKER_01: They're just flooding us with ugly, ugly, tasteless, ugly.
1:00:43
SPEAKER_01: But they're just people.
1:00:44
SPEAKER_01: They're just people like you and me.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna get through this moment.
1:00:48
SPEAKER_01: And um that's it.
1:00:50
SPEAKER_01: God bless you.
1:00:51
SPEAKER_01: God bless you, beautiful mind and body.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_01: I hope you feel today a little pocket of peace and pleasure for yourself, for you, just being you.
1:00:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna do that for myself and carve a little moment out to do that for me.
1:01:02
SPEAKER_01: So listen, I'm rambling on.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_01: I'll see you later.
1:01:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh, thanks for watching and listening to it.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_01: It's open with a lot of glazer.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_01: Bye.