Latest / Identity at the Center / #302 - Authenticate 2024 Preview with Andrew Shikiar

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#302 - Authenticate 2024 Preview with Andrew Shikiar · Identity at the Center

0:00
There are a lot of new ones to authentication and I was just
0:02
trying to think of the analogy. What's this saying?
0:04
Like so Eskimo incentives, like 85 different terms for snow.
0:08
They know they're coming from Seattle.
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Like I knew like 13 different types of rain.
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You know, a lot of people are not that deep into
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authentication. I think it's just
0:16
authentication. Just get someone signed in.
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But no, there's a lot of new ones, right?
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Are you talking about workforce? Are you talking about consumer?
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Are you talking about regulated? Are you talking about non
0:25
regulated? Are you talking about business
0:26
partners? You know, we're talking about
0:29
global. Like there's so many nuances to
0:30
it that are important to understand.
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All right, So everyone needs to know the top level.
0:35
We provide that top level information about
0:37
authentication, about where it fits in your identity stack.
0:40
But for those who want to dig into the nuances and get deeper
0:43
and deeper down, you know we'll have content and experts on site
0:47
to help them grab those as well. Well, there's no nuance.
0:50
Obviously passwords suck, so. That's true.
0:53
What's there we don't want there?
0:55
Yes, exactly. Well, there's.
0:57
Yeah, use pass keys, Yes. This is identity at the center
1:07
if it has anything to do with IAM.
1:10
This is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff
1:17
Steadman. Welcome to the Identity at the
1:25
Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim.
1:27
Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
1:29
Oh, not so bad yourself. I'm.
1:31
So great, man. I mean, you know the we're in a
1:34
new era, Jeff. That's what I wanted to say.
1:36
So we're in the three hundreds in terms of episodes.
1:39
It's going to be a long time between now and episode 400,
1:43
probably almost two years before we get there, and we're also in
1:49
our fifth year, so this is exciting times for the Identity
1:53
at the Center podcast. Yeah, exactly.
1:55
I, I, I'd probably say we're like 9098 episodes away or
1:58
roundabouts there. So yeah, about a year, two
2:02
years, I'd say somewhere between two years and maybe a year and a
2:06
half, depending on how aggressive we get with
2:07
conferences in the in in the meantime.
2:10
Yeah, I, I think the, the most important thing everyone needs
2:13
to know is that we drop episodes every Monday.
2:17
We take a A2 to three-week break over the course of the holidays.
2:21
But every Monday we have an episode.
2:24
It's available on any podcast platform just about that, you
2:28
know, people have heard of. Now there might be some ones out
2:31
there that I'm not aware of, but.
2:34
On it, it doesn't matter that that platform is dead to you and
2:37
us. Exactly, and we also are doing
2:41
video podcasts now. So if you've been enjoying the
2:44
audio podcast, you can continue to join it.
2:47
You can still go out once in a while if you want to see these
2:50
mugs, even for just one episode, so that if you see us at a
2:55
conference, you know who we are. You can come up, introduce
2:58
yourself. You know, the engagement from
3:01
our audience, our listening audience, which I think is
3:03
pretty loyal too. I really love hearing from
3:06
people just saying them. They're getting a lot out of the
3:09
podcast, whether they've been in the industry for a long time or
3:14
they're brand new to the industry.
3:16
And that's what we try to do with the podcast is, you know,
3:19
bring up topics get pretty advanced, but not go so deep
3:24
right in the beginning of the of the show that we lose people,
3:29
right? So our we've been calling this
3:31
like edutainment for a long time, right?
3:34
We want the podcast to be educational for everyone,
3:39
whether you're new to the space or whether you've been in for a
3:43
long time. And we also want it to be
3:46
entertaining, right? We don't want it to be like the
3:48
run-of-the-mill, like just, you know, we're just going to throw
3:52
like technical terms at you for the next half hour 'cause that
3:55
would be pretty boring. So we try to keep things light.
3:59
We got personality right. Put some personality on this
4:02
pig. Yeah, hey, Mr. Ed had
4:05
personality, right? Yeah, exactly.
4:07
Yeah, it's a lot of fun. We do it because we enjoy doing
4:10
it. But you know, the byproduct is
4:11
hopefully people also enjoy what we do.
4:14
If you are listening, do us a favor, hop over to the YouTube
4:16
channel and give us a like and subscribe.
4:17
We're definitely trying to grow that Channel.
4:20
If you're if you're a super fan, just throw our videos on repeat
4:23
and play them overnight. That'll help us from a from a
4:25
metric standpoint, you know, if you want to fall asleep, you
4:28
know, or if you want to frighten people, maybe around Halloween,
4:30
you know, throw our videos up on on a big screen somewhere and
4:33
you know, have a point and laugh at whatever maybe.
4:35
But why don't we get to our guest today?
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We've got Andrew Shikiar. He's the Executive Director and
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CEO of the Fido Alliance. Welcome back to the show,
4:44
Andrew. Jeff, Jim, thanks so much for
4:47
having me and speak to be here as always.
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As always and and you say always because it basically is this is
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your eighth time on the podcast. The the current IDAC world
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record holder, Jim has promised a used Sport coat, jacket,
5:01
whatever you want to call it when when we hit 10 episodes
5:05
with a hastily applied IDAC sticker right slapped on it just
5:09
to show it's worth. And so I think I think Jim's
5:12
probably planning on bringing something over to authenticate
5:15
for that. He described it as Jeff.
5:18
Your your description made it sound like it was like some old
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T-shirt with armpit stains and they're like there's going to be
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a good jacket. They've only worn it probably a
5:27
couple times. You brought her shoulders on me.
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But if you can narrow that down to like a 46 regular, I'll be.
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I'll wear it with prey, I assure you that.
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All right? That sounds good.
5:38
Yeah. So Andrew, you've been with us a
5:39
bunch of time. Definitely.
5:40
We're early on supporter and here we are.
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I think it was like in the 50s the last time, the first time
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you're on an hour in the three hundreds.
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So definitely appreciate you being willing to kind of jump on
5:49
and you know, certainly partnering up with the
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Authenticate conference, which is really what today's episode
5:53
is going to be all about. Authenticate 2024.
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It's coming up pretty soon. It it would be, it would behoove
5:59
me to notice that you're wearing a Pass Keys shirt right now.
6:03
People can see that. Where do I get one of those?
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Because I feel like the more people wearing it, the more
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people understand what it is and ask questions.
6:12
You know, it's fun. We opened up a, a Fido store
6:15
with a bunch of passkey swag earlier this year.
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So you can go to shop.fidoalliance.org and
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there's a store there and you can buy all, all sorts of
6:23
passkey stuff. We're, we're seeing a decent
6:27
flow of commerce. So it's great to see the
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enthusiasm. Awesome to see people are
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actually doing this and probably at industry shows and things
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like that. I'll tell you what, how about we
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do a discount code for IDAC listeners, Let's call IDAC 10.
6:43
All right, So you go to shop@fightalliance.org and then
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at check out to IDAC 10 and with 10% off and then when you show
6:50
up to authenticate, you'll be all decked out in your passkey
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gear. Yeah, there you go.
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That's cool. So we'll have a link in our show
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notes for people to check that out.
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Yeah, one caveat is like, I actually don't know how to do
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discount codes. So I'm going to call it IDAC 10.
7:03
So check the discount, check, check, check the show notes in
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case I screw that up. But we'll make sure that we have
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the the proper discount code in the show notes.
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But as of now it's IDAC 10. Yeah, So we'll have a link in
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our show notes. I'll try to remember to put it
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on the screen somewhere once we got it confirmed.
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But we'll, we'll, we'll beg forgiveness from Megan or Adrian
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or whoever from the Fido team is going to help us out with that,
7:23
right? Yeah, they've done amazing work
7:24
with this, so yeah. Well, that's pretty cool.
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So, you know, if you're not familiar with Fido and I, I, I
7:30
ask you this question every time, but I feel like it's an
7:32
important one because we always have new listeners.
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What is the Fido Alliance? Can you just kind of give us a
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summary of what the mission is? Yeah, absolutely.
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Fido Alliance is an industry body.
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We were launched around 12 years ago focused on reducing reliance
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on passwords. As all your listeners know,
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passwords cause all sorts of problems, arranging for
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usability to, you know, security to hacks and data breaches and
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things like that. So Fido Alliance is creating
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open standards to replace passwords.
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Notably, it includes pass keys. Pass keys are a password
8:06
alternative that are built into just about every device that
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allows a user to sign in to sites and applications basically
8:16
with the same action they take to unlock their device.
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So typically a, you know, biometric, you know, face, you
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know, built into your handset or your PC.
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It can be a security key or anything like that.
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So not only does that provide better usability for consumers,
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but most importantly, it allows the service providers to get rid
8:39
of the passwords on the back end, which starts to, you know,
8:44
a change the threat factor for attackers because attackers love
8:48
passwords and if they love phishing, they like taking over
8:50
credentials, stuffing credentials.
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All that goes away with passkeys once you have eliminated the
8:55
password on the back end. Plus, if you're, you know, in
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the e-commerce space, it allows for easier access to your site.
9:03
So this year I was honored to do a keynote at Identiverse where I
9:08
sat on stage with some companies that have deployed pass queues
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and the Amazon is one of them. Amazon talked about a 14%
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increase in sign in success rate, meaning that 14% of, you
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know, like 14% more users were able to sign into Amazon.com to
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make purchases. So you think about what that
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translates into from A at bottom line standpoint, you start to
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see the benefit of Passkey's not just from a security standpoint,
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but really Passkey's, you know, turn the sign in into a revenue
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Center for for e-commerce vendors.
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It's interesting, Andrew, I was working on a client PowerPoint
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presentation and I went back to a presentation I created about
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10 years ago and it was, you know, I was looking for a slide,
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a slide template that I could work from.
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And it talked about, you know, kind of a down the road project
10:00
or do later project implement MFA.
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I'd say we passed the milestone a couple years ago now where MFA
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became like, if you haven't already done that, you better
10:11
get that in place. Now we're shifting into this
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password less world where, you know, we've been talking about
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password less for many years and now it's it's a reality and
10:23
pesky's a big part of that. You know, I really love this
10:27
authenticate conference. I've been going for a few years
10:29
now and I consider myself more of a identity generalist, if you
10:34
will. But and you talk about
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Identiverse, right? You get a, you get that I
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identity generalist perspective at Identiverse.
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They cover just about everything.
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The authenticate conference really focuses on authentication
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and it's a big driver to pass through this.
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So like you said, you get brought it into Identiverse and
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you come in with kind of like the consolidated message.
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But if you want to get the real scoop and you really want to
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understand that space, and it's not like it's not like a light
11:06
switch. It's not like you go one year
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and you're all of a sudden going to be an authentication guru.
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But this is where the the thought leadership is happening.
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This is where you can make contact and start building your
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network of the people who are really behind setting these
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standards. What are your thoughts?
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No, I think you're exactly right.
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It is a deeper dive in authentication.
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It's the name authenticate and we've also enjoyed a nice
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partnership with the folks at Identiverse.
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In a lot of ways, it's a carry on.
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You know, the community you'll see at Identiverse in the
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spring, you'll you'll find in the in the fall at Authenticate,
11:40
but with a, you know, a deeper focus on all things
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authentication. You know, user authentication
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is, is critical component without the most critical
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component to your broader IM step.
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And so it's really important to understand how people are are
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signing into your site, into your service, into your network.
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And that's what we look at at authenticate.
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And I mean, Jo, Joan, I think your, your historical
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perspective on this, you know, talking about MSA is really on
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point. You know, I mentioned before I
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was talking about what Fido does and, and how we're reducing
12:18
reliance on passwords. It's not just that it's actually
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changing the way that people think about authentication.
12:25
You know, we've known, we collectively have known for
12:28
decades that passwords are insufficient, right?
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And for the past 20 years or so, the answer has been, well, let's
12:33
layer on another factor on top of, you know, passwords is a
12:37
primary factor. The questions always been, the
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question hasn't been, are passwords enough?
12:40
The questions been, how do you make them suck less, right?
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And so the answer is being let's add a layer, you know, let's add
12:46
SMSOTP on top of this. Let's do TOTP, let's do an app,
12:50
let's do a push notification. The problem is most of these
12:54
approaches for MFA are flawed in their own right, right?
12:58
They still rely on human actions, which leads to
13:04
fallibility, which leads to account takeovers and bypasses
13:07
and things like that. So what passes actually do, what
13:10
Fido does, it actually introduces a, the true password
13:15
replacement or no longer are you working on thinking about
13:18
factors like MFA? Yes, use MFA, but ultimately,
13:23
you know, a passkey that provides the same difficulties
13:27
in a single gesture and a single action.
13:29
And, and you know, takes away this, this, this activity of
13:33
counting factors. And instead, he really thinks
13:35
about what the the actual threat model is today, which is
13:38
phishing, like phishing, social engineering, that is a threat
13:42
model. How do you attack that threat
13:44
model? You know, you make your
13:45
authentication unfishable, which is what pass cues do, which then
13:49
ties back into, you know, your broader identity strategy and
13:52
everything else. We start looking at, well, you
13:54
know, how am I considering, you know, account onboarding,
13:57
account recovery and, and authorization and all the other
14:00
things that go into, you know, an identity set.
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You know, you really need to start with, you know, the, the
14:07
secure method of getting people into your system, into your
14:10
network with user authentication.
14:13
And that's like that is what we dig deeper into at Authenticate.
14:16
So, Andrew, I feel like there is a opportunity here to craft a
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new shirt for your shop and it's something along the lines of
14:24
like Fido Alliance established, you know, whatever year making
14:28
passwords suck less or something like that.
14:32
You know, since whatever date that might that might be
14:34
something like that I think would be a lot of fun.
14:36
I think that is great, but I should.
14:38
You know, when we talk about the the founding of Fido Alliance,
14:40
it's actually really important to note that the goal wasn't to
14:42
get rid of passwords. The goal is to, you know, turn
14:45
the time of data breaches, but passwords are the tip of that
14:48
spear, right? And so our, our real goal is to
14:52
stop, you know, online fraud or identity related fraud.
14:56
But passwords are the source of most of those problems, right?
15:01
So if you address a password problem, you're you're
15:03
addressing scalable tax, you're you're addressing data breaches,
15:07
you're addressing credential stuff and all all those all
15:09
those things associated with dependence on knowledge based
15:13
credentials. So Andrew, one of the things I
15:17
hear clients talk about a lot, you know with when it's like you
15:20
talk about password list, right? So you're talking about really
15:23
getting rid of the password. If the client doesn't need to
15:26
know the password or the, I'm sorry, the end user doesn't need
15:29
to know the password versus MFA where it's two factors.
15:34
So let's assume that they're using some kind of strong
15:37
authenticator biometric or something like that.
15:40
Then they'll challenge me and say well it isn't adding a
15:44
password, just strengthening things because now I'm using two
15:47
factors rather than one. So doesn't the the password
15:51
actually strengthen the authentication?
15:54
Yeah. So the second factor will will
15:56
strengthen the authentication, but the primary factor is still
15:59
incredibly weak, right. So I think there's also a
16:01
misconception out there that, you know, forcing people to have
16:05
very complex passwords, the unique character strings or
16:07
even, you know, generated passwords is secure in and of
16:10
itself. So any password can be fished,
16:14
any password can be stolen. But also there's a huge, you
16:20
know, backdoor account recovery, which pertains to a variety of
16:23
sign the methods actually, where someone is social engineers, an
16:28
account recovery process from a help desk or support desk, you
16:32
know, calling in, pretending to be somebody, you know, getting
16:35
that note that that account regenerated to a fake or to to
16:41
an attacker, which allows them to take over that account.
16:46
So again, relying on passwords as a primary factor is
16:49
inherently flawed and it's always going to put you down a
16:52
path towards account takeovers. Now backing up a password.
16:58
So, you know, that being said, I understand that a lot of people
17:00
have legacy. Infrastructure.
17:02
And want to get to, you know, past the future, but need to,
17:04
you know, have a migration path. You know, having MFA system
17:10
where you have a hardware backed second factor like a security
17:13
key where someone needs to, you know, pre possession of a
17:18
credential to sign in and to trigger, even trigger every
17:21
process. That is a, you know, much better
17:26
approach than using legacy forms 2FA based on a fundamentally
17:29
flawed primary factor of a password.
17:33
Right, Yeah. And I mean, it's, it's a very
17:36
complex topic in terms of there's so many, it depends on
17:41
some of the use case scenario that you're talking about as
17:44
well. So there's that recovery aspect,
17:47
that kind of the unhappy fact that could be exploited.
17:50
There's the use case, like if you're going out to millions of
17:53
users and kind of a CIM perspective, you know, the same
17:57
reasons why MFA is hard to roll out to the large population is
18:02
the same reason why, you know, having people who lose their
18:07
password and can't log in or lose their second credential get
18:11
a new phone. They have problems with the
18:14
recovery process. So I, I guess why I brought up
18:17
that whole topic, it's very nuanced and there's the kind of
18:20
conversations that happened at the Authenticate conference.
18:24
I love Ideniverse, right? But it's it, it covers so many
18:28
different topics, whereas the Authenticate conference just
18:31
focuses on authentication and you can have time for these kind
18:35
of conversations, I think as the IM practitioner.
18:38
You know, within. Your company, you're expected to
18:41
be the expert and be able to talk about and handle these
18:44
types of questions, right? And the way you do that is to
18:48
sink yourself into these topics, interact with the experts in the
18:52
world who are the deepest thinkers on these topics and
18:56
they're in authenticate. So to me, that's like the value,
18:59
like if you've never gone to the conference before and you're
19:02
thinking, well, my job doesn't just focus on authentication.
19:06
So I'm going to go broad brush and I understand that.
19:09
And I think, you know, the other angle to it is like not
19:14
everybody can go to every conference that they want to.
19:17
But even if you just get to authenticate like one time for
19:21
me, I'd highly encourage it because I just feel like, you
19:25
know, diving into the deep end in a topic, you know, you can
19:30
get a lot of benefit from that. You know, I think that the there
19:36
are a lot of new ones as to authentication.
19:38
And I was just trying to think of the analogy.
19:39
What's the saying like, so Eskimos out of like 85 different
19:44
terms for snow, they know they're coming from Seattle.
19:46
Like I knew like 13 different types of rain.
19:48
You know, a lot of people are not that deep into
19:50
authentication things else's user, it's just authentication.
19:53
Just get someone signed in. But no, there's a lot of nuance,
19:56
right? Are you talking about workforce?
19:58
Are you talking about consumer? Are you talking about regulated?
20:00
Are you talking about non regulated?
20:01
Are you talking about business partners?
20:04
You know, we're talking about global.
20:05
There's so many nuances to it that are important to
20:08
understand, right? So everyone needs to know the
20:10
top level. We provide that top level
20:12
information about authentication about where it fits in your
20:14
identity stack. But for those who want to dig
20:18
into the nuances and get deeper and deeper down, you know we'll
20:21
have content and experts on site to help them grab those as well.
20:26
Well, there's no nuance. Obviously passwords suck, so.
20:29
There's the nuance there. We don't want that there, right?
20:32
Yes, exactly. Well, there's yeah, use pass
20:34
keys, yes, so. Obviously the experts in the
20:38
industry are going to be there. Who else should be there?
20:41
Who else is the conference for? It's for, it's for anyone
20:44
interested in authentication and identity, frankly, right.
20:47
So last year we had, I think around, you know, 40% of the
20:50
people. So they were New Newark to
20:53
Passkies, Newark to Fido, which is awesome, right?
20:55
So we, we, and then we also had, you know, probably, you know, 30
20:59
plus percent who are pros, you know, who really got into the
21:03
these, these nooks and crannies of authentication.
21:05
So, and we tailor the content with Taylor Taylor, the flow of
21:08
the show to cater to to anyone interested in user
21:12
authentication, anyone interested in pass keys and the
21:15
adjacent topics they're in should come at this conference.
21:19
But I think, you know, we should probably have, we should have
21:22
over 600 people this year, well over 600 people.
21:25
Everyone brings their own perspectives, your own
21:27
background of their own, their own, you know, learning agenda
21:30
into the three days that we have at Authenticate.
21:34
Yeah. And I can speak from personal
21:36
experience going to this past year, the environment of the
21:41
conference gives you time to really reflect really to and,
21:45
and the size of the conference gives you the opportunity to
21:48
engage with people, including the experts.
21:50
I found that, you know, it's just like people are very
21:53
approachable. You can just go sit down at a
21:55
table with a bunch of people and network and you know, some of
21:59
the top minds in the field now. So if we've got people
22:04
interested, which hopefully now they're like, OK, I'm, I'm sold.
22:08
I want to go, we're in like this critical period, right?
22:12
So this episode's going to drop on September 2nd.
22:15
We've got a discount code that we've had out there for a while.
22:18
It's IDAC 15 gives you 15% off your registration fees, but it's
22:24
also the last week of early bird pricing for the conference,
22:27
right? So if you're going to go make
22:30
that decision this week and get registered before what is the
22:33
September 9th? I don't have a calendar in front
22:36
of me. It would be that Friday, the
22:37
Friday after Labor Day in the US Yeah, I think that would be
22:40
September somewhere. Single digits.
22:43
Single digits. Well, OK.
22:45
Register early and often. That's the message, right?
22:47
Don't miss out on that. It's a Friday and so I want to
22:49
say September 6th or 9th or something like that.
22:52
Anyways, as soon as you hear this, go, go, go register.
22:55
So no, the conference itself is, is great, Jim, I appreciate you
22:57
saying that. I mean, you know what one of the
23:00
obviously ideal we we have for this is I should feel like
23:04
you're going to a retreat and not just your typical hotel
23:06
conference, right? So the venue itself is
23:09
fantastic. It's a, it's a resort setting in
23:11
Carlsbad, CA. If you haven't been to Southern
23:13
California in mid-october, you're missing out.
23:19
It's a really nice grounds. One thing I, I really loved
23:21
seeing last year is this people, if you're saying this kind of
23:24
strolling around and mingling. I was calling all the
23:26
authenticate tours, you know, kind of taking over the grounds
23:29
of this beautiful resort and you'd see people sitting in
23:32
these little these tables around palm trees by that pool, like
23:35
talking about authentication. So it's a really neat venue that
23:39
does have the kind of retreat type mentality to it.
23:41
We want people to feel like that, you know, for those who
23:45
are inclined to do things outside of the conference,
23:47
there's, you know, world class golf there, there's surfing at
23:51
the beach nearby. It's just, it's a, it's a great
23:53
place to come and dig deeper into authentication and really
23:56
to lean into the, the, the broader Fido and authentication
24:03
community. I say this every year and I'm
24:05
starting to get, get rimmed for this actually, but there's a
24:08
sense of community here is quite strong.
24:12
You know, there's kind of a missionary feel to what we're
24:14
doing at Fido Alliance and, and authenticate because no one
24:18
thinks that what we're doing is a bad idea, right?
24:20
Everyone understands that we're trying to make passwords suck
24:23
and really suck less and, and do away with those and everyone
24:26
understands the importance of that.
24:27
So as an attendee, if you're trying to learn and you have a
24:31
use case, you know, go to the sessions, the experts will take
24:34
time to talk to you, right? Everyone wants you to be
24:37
successful because there's a, there's a sense of joint
24:42
opportunity and joint responsibility, understanding
24:45
that, you know, the integrity of the Internet itself is only as
24:49
strong as the weakest link. So the more sites and the more
24:53
enterprises, the more companies that start hardening their
24:56
authentication systems and architectures, the better half
24:59
everyone is. It allows everyone to move
25:02
forward into a, you know, a more secure future and and more, you
25:06
know, seamless and usable Internet experience once people
25:10
are using pass keys instead of relying on passwords.
25:14
Yeah, I'm looking forward to this conference.
25:16
I it's it's October 14th through the 16th.
25:18
It's in Carlsbad, CA Couldn't ask for generally a better
25:22
weather experience, at least in the US.
25:25
Yeah I I it's one of my favorite conferences for sure.
25:28
And I and I like the environment.
25:30
It seems like it's a very social.
25:34
Casual is probably not the word, but I feel like there's a lot of
25:37
conversation and discussion. It's not so much presentation,
25:42
right? It's hey, you know, let's sit
25:44
down. Last year there were food trucks
25:45
and, you know, a bunch of us kind of sat around the table
25:47
just talked identity or different things and things like
25:50
that. And it was a very open and fun
25:53
kind of conference, which I really appreciate because they
25:55
think sometimes we get into these other conferences, which
25:58
are also great, but they're huge, right?
26:00
And it's, you're shuffling from like one session to another.
26:03
And it's not sometimes even time to breathe.
26:06
You know, I, I like to have time to breathe and I want to sit
26:09
down and talk with people. And if I can do it under a palm
26:12
tree in Southern California weather in October, sign me up.
26:17
I am totally in. Yeah, bring sunscreen.
26:20
No, we, we, we, we, we, we do build an extra networking time,
26:23
but the presentations are great. And there is a challenge, you
26:26
know, putting on a conference like this because there's so
26:28
much time to. We want to get out there.
26:30
We had hundreds of submissions this year and I think we have 93
26:34
sessions or something like that. So it's a manageable number, but
26:36
it's built across 4 tracks. And so people, you know, we have
26:41
tracks covering, you know, different types of, you know,
26:43
pass key roll outs, usability, different sort of sectors
26:49
specific, you know, things like looking at identity
26:52
verification, payments, government, automotive and all
26:54
sorts of things that get a little deeper into specific use
26:58
cases. And so it's a chance to, to, to
27:01
attend those and learn about them.
27:03
One thing I will note is that we do actually have remote
27:06
participation. We, we, we, we video everything.
27:09
So we have a live stream for those who cannot attend in
27:11
person, but significantly for those who are on site who have a
27:15
track conflict, you can go back and watch all the content too.
27:18
So we make that available to attendees.
27:21
Find yourself OK. Yeah, thank you so much.
27:23
Because there's always a conflict.
27:25
And I was like, all right, how do I split time between these
27:27
two 3-4 sessions all taking place at the same time?
27:29
I can always go back and review it.
27:31
Yeah, I mean to be clear, we're we're, you know, we're very
27:32
grateful for and we care about our remote attendees.
27:35
But I'm, you know, we're most interested in actually archiving
27:37
this content and making it available for Aid 1st for
27:41
conference attendees and eventually to the general public
27:43
because the content is gold. There's so much being conveyed,
27:47
you know, from experts that we want to make sure that this is
27:49
captured and shared and really, you know, helping educate the
27:52
industry at large. I know we talked a lot about
27:55
authenticate here, right? The one in October in Carlsbad,
27:58
but you're actually going to be at an APEC conference in Kuala
28:02
Lumpur. That's is that also a Fido
28:04
event? It is the Fido APEC Summit
28:07
similar to authenticate actually in some ways, but it's it's a 2
28:10
day conference, their second one week jump.
28:13
It's amazing show on its own right.
28:15
So for anyone listening in Asia Pacific, it's not too late to
28:19
book flights to go to KL. It's the following week,
28:22
September 9th, 10th, 11th in Kuala Lumpur, whichever in 300
28:28
people attending that conference over over 2 1/2 days learning
28:33
you know all about Fido, Fido authentication.
28:36
Look at some region, you know, region dependent activities.
28:39
We have expert speakers from, you know, different case
28:43
studies, different sectors in, in, in APAC.
28:46
And it's been really interesting to watch the Asian market
28:51
evolve. I mean, a lot of the earliest
28:52
Fido supporters and deployments were from Asia, but we've seen a
28:57
particular amount of innovation in Southeast Asia, which is
29:03
where we've we've, you know, launched this conference.
29:05
So last year we had it in Vietnam, this year it's in
29:07
Malaysia because there's so much happening in in this corner of
29:13
Asia Pacific, this corner of the world, that it's important to
29:15
try to harness it. And again, you know, create a
29:18
forum where people can, you know, meet each other and share
29:20
best practices and learn in advance their own authentication
29:23
objectives. So Phyto AIPAC Summit is the is
29:27
the events that people should be looking to attend in Southeast
29:31
Asia. Yeah, not a bad gig for you
29:34
either. You get to see all all over the
29:36
world, which is pretty cool. But back on this conference in
29:40
the US, so the Authenticate conference, he talked to us a
29:43
little bit about the types of content that are going to be in
29:48
store. You know, what are some of the
29:51
highlights that people should be aware of that you know, you
29:55
think there's going to be a big draw?
29:57
Yeah, I think backing up a little bit, you know, one of
30:02
those common questions I get from the people who reach out to
30:07
Fido Alliance as well. Can you give me an example of
30:09
someone who's done this? Give me an example of someone
30:12
who's done that. Give me, you know, tell me about
30:13
someone who has deployed, you know, five O 4 payments payment
30:18
authentication. Tell me about the workforce
30:20
setting or are there examples of governments who have deployed
30:23
this to for interagency authentication get a lot of use
30:28
case requests? And So what we focus on that
30:30
authenticate is kind of use use case driven content.
30:33
So getting practitioners to come speak and share their
30:36
experiences and it's incredibly powerful because typically it's
30:40
either spot on to what someone you know, has on their own
30:44
agenda, their own, you know, professional agenda, or it's
30:46
adjacent enough where someone could learn from that.
30:48
And then like you mentioned, go engage with the speaker
30:51
afterwards to just pick their brain and learn more about how
30:55
they can apply that to their own learnings.
30:57
So in general, I'd say it's kind of practitioner centric content
31:02
and the and the and the breakout tracks for practitioners to use
31:06
in in their daily lives if I can.
31:08
Erupt it there Andrew, does that feel the same way like the
31:11
practitioner content to me the most impactful over the last two
31:17
years just seeing oh wow, this isn't just Apple, Microsoft and
31:23
Google that are doing this. This is regular companies, non
31:28
tech companies that are using pass keys and going password
31:32
lists. It's not just exciting from a
31:36
philosophical perspective, but in the real world, this stuff is
31:40
is taking root. Yeah, Yeah, that's it.
31:43
And one thing that's been really cool to see is how the content
31:48
has evolved, right? As this industry has matured,
31:51
our content has matured as well, right?
31:54
So it's not just like we, we have this content like building
31:57
a case for getting rid of passwords.
31:58
But it's not just that it's not theoretical, it's, it's actual,
32:03
right? So it's actual, it's practical
32:06
and it's getting into again, the, the more and more nuance
32:10
understanding it's very specific scenarios for deployment, you
32:13
know, for, for user authentication today.
32:15
But also, you know, we're looking at these adjacent spaces
32:18
as well, like looking forward. So there's adjacent
32:20
technologies. And we had a big push actually
32:23
Identiverse this year, we launched our identity
32:26
verification certification program.
32:28
So we have a big focus on identity verification because we
32:31
talk about again, the strength model.
32:33
So you have authentication as a primary threat model, but
32:36
there's a giant back door. And if you're, if you're for,
32:39
you know, in the cat recovery that can be exposed if you are
32:44
still on boarding people with knowledge based credentials,
32:48
right. So we have a certification
32:49
program now that encourages utilization of technologies,
32:54
identity verification technologies that are doing what
32:57
I'll call possession based onboarding and possession based
32:59
recovery, you know, leveraging, you know, the ability to, to
33:03
recognize someone's face, right. So face verification.
33:07
So we have a whole breakout track on identity verification,
33:10
how that ties into your user authentication strategy.
33:13
We have breakout tracks on like I mentioned before on, on, on
33:16
payments, government use cases, you know, again, looking at kind
33:20
of the, the consumer versus workforce authentication, other
33:25
complementary technologies and standards that are emerging
33:29
around, you know, verifiable credentials and things like
33:31
that. So and so we we touched on all
33:33
aspects of identity with the deepest focus of course on on
33:36
easier authentication. Yeah, that's fantastic.
33:39
The other thing I'll mention, Andrew, I mean this could be a
33:42
major draw for the conference is that Jeff and I will be there.
33:47
You know, we're talking about we're we're work shopping right
33:49
now on kind of being the transition between the keynote
33:55
and dinner. The funny thing is like Jeff and
33:58
I are going to be competing with food the entire time.
34:01
We're always. Competing with food.
34:03
Let's be honest here. It's true.
34:05
It's true. So we're, you know, expecting to
34:08
do that. We're workshopping because the
34:10
idea is that we're going to have a Family Feud game.
34:13
So we have to figure out how to do that.
34:15
But it's kind of a, a fun way to transition from the keynotes,
34:20
which are, you know, heavy and impactful to something that's a
34:25
little bit lighter before we go out and network and have dinner.
34:28
And then we'll also be podcasting.
34:29
So, you know, we've got several podcasts lined up.
34:34
One of them is the DIAF. They've got a scholarship winner
34:38
from the Victorio Bertucci Award, you know, one annual
34:44
winner comes to authenticate. So we'll be interviewing that
34:47
person along with Ian Glazer, I think is going to help moderate.
34:52
And then all of our podcasts are going to have seating available,
34:57
so people who are interested in hearing the show be recorded
35:01
live and maybe picking up the microphone and asking a question
35:05
or to themselves, that's going to be an option.
35:08
And I think right now what Adrian and Megan have in the
35:12
works is that it's going to be in the Expo hall, kind of
35:16
situated in a corner, and it's going to take place during the
35:21
lunch hour or during food time so that we're not competing with
35:26
other sessions. So if people want to go session
35:30
to podcast the session, it's possible, but we're going to be
35:34
eating the food. I had a lot of fun doing your
35:36
live podcast on Universe. That was a new experience for me
35:40
as an audience. As an audience, I'm like, oh
35:42
God, you know, I can't. It's live.
35:46
So now it's a lot of fun doing that.
35:47
And and we're we're thrilled to have you guys there and I think
35:50
you'll compete well with dinner. We're looking forward to the
35:53
family feud, whatever that may bring.
35:55
It'll be a fun way to to engage the audience and engage the
35:58
community we're talking about. And then, yeah, then we should
36:00
talk about even the activities because we want authenticate to
36:04
be fun and it is fun, right. And so we, you know, we'll have
36:08
at last we had this food truck set up outside the Expo hall.
36:13
By the way, we have an amazing Expo hall this year.
36:15
So it's it's almost sold out great vendors who have a lot of
36:20
things you planned it to share with with the attendees.
36:24
But you can segue from that on the opening night into the kind
36:26
of the food trap area, which is good networking.
36:29
The second night we're going to have our blowout party again,
36:31
which exceeded my expectations. It was a lot of fun and people,
36:36
people carried on into the wee hours of the evening or the wee
36:40
hours of the morning evening. Like there's there were some
36:42
people lingering in the pools, I understand until until after
36:46
midnight both nights. So you're leading that cool
36:50
person. This is a place for you as well.
36:53
What happens in Carlsbad stays in Carlsbad to some degree.
36:56
It was not in names. It's a fun conference, right?
36:59
And I, I think that's probably hopefully what people get on
37:02
this and, and hopefully we'll see a lot of people there.
37:04
You know, the three of us will be there as a whole bunch of
37:06
other people. It's just a good time and really
37:09
good, interesting conversations, which is a great mix.
37:13
So there's a, there's definitely a lot going on.
37:15
I'm, I'm particularly excited about the Stanley feud idea
37:18
because I've had ideas for shows that we've been Jim and I've
37:22
been trying to figure out how to kind of work some, some of this
37:25
stuff, especially kind of like live events and stuff as they're
37:27
starting to do more of that. So things may change, right?
37:31
We never know, but we are trying to figure out how that works.
37:34
I'm particularly excited to, you know, see how see how we can
37:37
pull this off and continue to iterate on these kind of things
37:41
in the future. I'd still like to do a hot Wings
37:43
style that's been on my bucket list for like 2 to three years.
37:46
Now. A hot one style where we do
37:49
spicy food throughout. So if you're familiar with hot
37:51
ones on YouTube, it's an interview that somebody does
37:54
with somebody else, usually celebrities, and they're both
37:57
eating progressively spicier chicken wings or you know, vegan
38:01
wings, things like that. And something like that I think
38:03
would be a lot of fun. I'm not a spicy food person, so
38:05
I'm sure be people get a riot out of me turning red and maybe
38:08
dying on the show. But stuff like that, I think,
38:11
you know, could be interesting, but.
38:13
We'll see. We'll start staying with you and
38:14
see where it goes. If you haven't seen Hot Ones
38:18
before, Andrew, it's like the concept really gets, you know,
38:23
it's like usually the 6th or 7th wing is up to 10 and like the
38:27
10th wing is just inedible. Right.
38:30
So then you're having to answer your questions while you're
38:32
physically suffering. If you're the celebrity who's
38:35
being interviewed, it's pretty hilarious.
38:38
Yeah, it's a good time. It's a really good interview.
38:40
Like it's, it's basically, what's the guy's name?
38:43
Sean Something Can't remember his last name, and he interviews
38:46
celebrities. And it's been really interesting
38:48
to see how the show has grown on YouTube over the years.
38:50
I mean, it's a whole thing now. It used to be like, you know, D
38:54
list celebrities, and now they're getting A list
38:56
celebrities. No kidding.
38:57
Putting them through the gauntlet of these spicy wings.
38:59
And yeah, some people can handle it better than others.
39:03
If you haven't checked it out, it's a lot of fun.
39:05
And the one thing that really strikes me is the interview is
39:08
really good. It's not just there's hot hot
39:11
sauce and that's like the only thing to it.
39:13
The questions go really deep and everybody who is interviewed
39:17
always comments about like, wow, how did you, how did you know
39:20
that's a good question? Nobody's ever asked me about
39:21
that. So it's a really good also, you
39:24
know, if you're looking at doing this type of of interview type
39:27
stuff is it's a it's a good model to follow.
39:30
So we'd be geeking out on authentication while slowly
39:34
melting down from. Right.
39:35
Yeah, into a into a puddle of sweat and tears in a corner of
39:40
the room. Sounds like there's potential
39:42
there for a future authenticate 2829 maybe, yeah.
39:47
Build up a tolerance over the next couple years and just, you
39:49
know, do like your training hot sauce a day, every day.
39:53
All right, let's try to wrap things up here because you're
39:55
very gesture time. You're on the West Coast.
39:56
I know it's earlier for you. I want to put you on the spot
39:59
because usually we'll end the show on a wider note and we
40:02
didn't discuss this before. Usually just to kind of, you
40:05
know, peek behind the curtain of how we do this is I'll come up
40:08
with something that's like a wider note question at the end
40:10
for the end of the show. But I'll share it just before we
40:13
hit record so that at least, you know, our guest has a little bit
40:15
of time to think about this. In this case, that is not what
40:19
happened here. I came up with one before the
40:21
show, forgot to mention it, and then I came up with another one
40:24
while we were talking here. So you can feel.
40:27
Free answer. I did not get the question I
40:29
noted. I was wondering about this, but
40:30
it's always kind of a thing. I was like, maybe they didn't do
40:32
it this maybe like now they're over 300 shows, they don't do
40:34
this anymore. They're all buttoned up now.
40:36
Or I didn't think that maybe they're going to totally
40:38
surprise me without. So definitely the latter.
40:41
I have, I have two questions you can answer or not.
40:45
We'll give you the the opportunity to pass.
40:47
So the first question is pass key related, if you had to rank
40:53
regions of the world in pass key adoption, who is 1st and who is
40:59
last? So what I mean by that is there
41:02
in a particular area of the world that is really like
41:04
embrace pass keys and you're seeing a lot of adoption.
41:07
And then the opposite of that is where is it still slow and we
41:10
need to drive more awareness or or whatever it may be.
41:13
That's a tough one to quantify. So there's so many companies
41:18
that are deploying this at scale are global, you know, Amazon's
41:23
global, Tik Tok's global, Google global, Apple's global,
41:28
Microsoft's global eBay, Walmart, the list goes on.
41:33
So that's really a tough one to answer.
41:35
If we're talking about consumer implementations, we think
41:38
there's, you know, over 13 or 15 billion user accounts that have
41:41
a pass key now. So it's, it's tough to quantify.
41:45
And I'll, I'll tell you some things I've seen though that are
41:47
really exciting over the past, you know, several months, we've
41:50
seen a ton of activity in Australia and you know, it's,
41:55
it's a meaningful market, but we've seen the government with
41:58
your mygov implementation allow passkeys for sign in there.
42:02
I just saw a Telstra allow sign in for their, your Telstra
42:06
mobile account. U Bank, which is a neo bank is
42:09
supporting passkeys for banking. And so I'm seeing a lot of, it's
42:13
interesting to see some of these regions start building momentum
42:18
within them. And it really does, you know,
42:20
build upon itself because it does a couple of things.
42:22
One, once you see a lead service provider or government
42:26
supporting pass keys makes it easier for the next one to
42:29
follow suit because if you point to that, it's an exemplar.
42:33
And so it gives, it makes it easier.
42:34
But also I believe there's consumer demand, right?
42:37
Consumers are starting to understand what pass keys are
42:39
and they want to use pass keys, right?
42:43
So the survey we did earlier this year showed that over half
42:46
the consumers have been offered a passkey and, and have chosen
42:49
to use one. And so you're starting to see
42:51
consumer awareness, consumer demand for this.
42:53
So once you get some momentum going in the region, more and
42:57
more, you know, lead for on the consumer side, service providers
43:00
will support them. So hope that answers your
43:04
question. I don't have a last 'cause I'm
43:05
never going to name anyone last. I figured I'd try.
43:10
We're seeing global growth, but it, but it's, it's really cool
43:13
to see certain regions, you know, explode onto the scene.
43:18
And we're, and we're seeing hints of that in, in certain
43:21
areas of South America as well. And that'll be an area to watch
43:24
as we move forward, you know, between 2024 and 2025.
43:28
OK, Now something not identity related, but related to you were
43:32
going to be out with us on a show a couple weeks ago and you
43:34
had some flight difficulties which I think we've all been
43:37
there and understand it. So here's my question to the to
43:40
the three of us and definitely gut, gut reaction here.
43:43
What's the worst thing you've ever seen on an airplane?
43:47
Seen on an airplane or the worst like travel delay seen on.
43:50
The worst, worst thing you've seen or experienced maybe, let's
43:52
say on an airplane, I'll give you an example.
43:55
Like for me, I've seen people with like their shoes off, like
43:59
up on top of people's seats behind them.
44:02
And the person in front of them is totally oblivious that their
44:05
head is like mere, you know, inches away from somebody's
44:09
gross foot. You know, things like that is
44:12
kind of what I'm I'm thinking about.
44:14
Bare feet, stinky food, you know, it just general
44:18
inconsiderateness is sort of things that, that I, I see every
44:22
now and then and I, I kind of try to block them out and put
44:26
blinders on and, and, or, or mentally forgotten it because I,
44:29
I, I, you're so scholar, you know, like I'm a father of two
44:34
lovely kids and I, they were small at one point.
44:37
So like the crying baby thing doesn't bother me as much
44:39
anymore. Although I was on a flight
44:41
recently with one of my kids and I had like the cryingest baby
44:44
ever. I forget where we were going,
44:45
but it was, oh, just up to Seattle from LA.
44:49
And this child was, was going nonstop from like take off the
44:53
landing. So that that's unavoidable.
44:55
Like the more time you spend on planes, the more of the stuff
44:56
you're going to see. And just try not to let it get
45:00
to me too much. Jim, about yourself.
45:02
What's the worst thing you've seen on a plane?
45:05
OK. First thing, Jeff, you'd like me
45:08
to not complain, right? But then you bring this.
45:11
Question up, I'm giving this to you.
45:13
Man, this is a golden ticket for me.
45:15
Right? OK.
45:16
Second off, I thought Andrew might say Antarctica as a region
45:21
that there's not much pass key adoption?
45:24
I'd be surprised. You'd be surprised, yeah.
45:26
There's fewer, there's fewer operations, but maybe they'll
45:29
have it. Maybe they're leading the pack.
45:30
We don't know that. It could be 100% OK in terms of
45:37
best of on airplanes, I've seen some vomiting, turbulence,
45:42
people freaking out. Those are all bad.
45:47
But I had one happen to me recently so I can tell more of a
45:50
detailed story where I was on the phone with Denise and there
45:54
I was in the the waiting area, the terminal, and there's a baby
45:59
just going off. And like Andrew, I've had young
46:02
kids, I've traveled with them. So I tried to, I've learned to
46:06
be extra patient and understanding.
46:09
And Denise says to me, like, what's up with that baby?
46:11
Like she could hear it through my, my Bluetooth.
46:14
And I said, well, I should be fine.
46:16
I got upgraded to 1st class Jeff, I, I texted you, do you
46:20
ever regret being upgraded to 1st class?
46:22
You're like, no Netflix. So I get on into first class.
46:25
I'm in row four. Row 3 happens to be this mother
46:28
and the baby and the baby's going off.
46:29
And I'm like, all right, well, I'm just going to put my music
46:32
on extra loud. And I did that.
46:35
The worst part, the most inconsiderate part was, and we,
46:39
we, it was only like a 45 minute flight, but we got delayed on
46:44
the runway. So we're sitting there for like
46:46
45 minutes. So the captain says, OK, you can
46:50
get up and go to the bathroom. Well, this baby when #2 in her
46:54
diaper, she wasn't really a baby, she's more of a toddler.
46:58
And we're sitting there and I'm thinking, OK, thank goodness she
47:01
can get up now and and take her to the bathroom and change the
47:05
diaper. Well, she doesn't.
47:08
And here, like everybody in the whole area is like holding their
47:12
nose and like grumbling and stuff.
47:15
And including me. I was like, come on, you have to
47:19
smell that. You have to smell that.
47:23
And it was just like, what's? And like the entire flight, I
47:27
could smell it. And I was just like this is not
47:28
good. What's the thing right?
47:31
It's like smells are probably the worst thing because
47:33
sometimes they linger. Food is, is always bad.
47:37
I I'm a McDonald's fan. I love McDonald's, but on a
47:40
plane, like it just kind of like lingers and someone will bring
47:44
on fries and then what? One, one thing, a couple things
47:46
might happen. One, I'll be hungry for a
47:48
McDonald's fries. That's just going to happen.
47:50
Two, is it just kind of sits there and it's like, you know,
47:53
like, what are we going to do with that?
47:55
You know, greasy kind of smell, whatever it may be.
47:58
So those are pet peeves for me. The other one for me is the sun
48:01
shade on windows. People who fly with it open
48:05
where it's like a 6:00 AM flight and the light just shines
48:08
through the entire cabin to people who are trying to sleep.
48:11
And I don't know what the, you know, what the the etiquette is
48:16
around this, but I feel like if you're sitting next to a window
48:21
and it is very bright outside and sun is literally shining
48:23
into the cabin, take a look around you.
48:25
Is it hitting someone in the face?
48:27
Is it hit them right in the eyes they can't see?
48:30
Maybe just lower it a little bit to help them out.
48:33
That would be great. There's an obligation there.
48:35
It's an, it's an active role the, the, the window person in
48:39
a, a morning or a twilight flight.
48:40
So you can't just take that casually.
48:42
It's almost like the emergency exit questions you get should be
48:45
very prepared to, you know, be aware of the well-being of the
48:48
people around you. You know, what's your window
48:50
shade? So that's a fair question.
48:52
None of these things will happen to people who fly to
48:54
authenticate. By the way, all my stuff
48:56
indicator are followed free, they smell great and there's no
49:00
crying. So please book your flights.
49:02
I'll be driving, not much. Crying.
49:04
Jim and I will be there, so there might be some crying.
49:07
Yeah, but not on the way to or free.
49:09
So don't just dissuade anybody from coming, please.
49:12
Now, you know, I think everybody has these experiences, right?
49:14
They on a plane for the most part.
49:16
You know, I travel a lot. I fly a lot.
49:18
For the most part, things are fine.
49:20
But every once in a while you just get that thing.
49:22
And, you know, fortunately we have things like noise
49:24
cancelling earbuds that can, you know, drown out babies or other
49:27
noises or whatever it may be. But yeah, every once in a while
49:30
there's this thing. It's just like, and it really
49:33
strikes me as sort of like, these are first world problems.
49:35
Like if this is what I'm complaining about, I'm probably
49:37
doing OK. Right in the yeah, no, it's,
49:41
it's fun flying. It's not fun, but it's, it's,
49:44
it's, it's a necessary thing. And we're looking forward to
49:47
seeing people get on planes and land in San Diego or Orange
49:51
County and we'll see them at Authenticate, which we yes.
49:54
Come off to authenticate, join the three of us.
49:57
Really looking forward to it. October 14th, the 16th.
50:00
Use our discount code IDAC 15. You get 15% off.
50:03
Stack it on top of the soon to expire Earlybird discounts,
50:07
things like that. So we'll have links in our show
50:09
notes for people to check out all that stuff and hopefully
50:12
people take advantage of it. So we're going to go ahead and
50:15
leave it there for this episode. You can visit us on the web, IDC
50:20
podcast.com. We'll have a link to Fido
50:22
Alliance website as well and the Fido Shop.
50:24
You can get yourself a cool T-shirt as well and show
50:26
support. Andrew will have a link to your
50:28
LinkedIn profile as well for people who want to reach out and
50:31
connect that way. Let's see what else we're on
50:34
Twitter or X or whatever might be called at IDAC podcast.
50:38
Again, if you give us a like and subscribe and YouTube, that
50:41
would be fantastic. idacpodcast.tv.
50:43
We'll take your rate to our channel.
50:45
And yeah, connect with Jim and I, send us ideas for shows, send
50:50
us comments, criticisms, concerns, all that good stuff,
50:53
and we'll take that under advisement.
50:56
Won't promise anything, but we'll read it.
50:59
All right, let's go ahead and leave it there.
51:01
Thanks everyone for watching. We're listening and we'll talk
51:04
with everyone in the next one. You've been listening to
51:09
Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show.
51:13
Make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon.
51:18
But in the meantime, hit the website at
51:20
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51:26
the Center.