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Animal Intelligence – Minds Unlike Our Own · Talking Science

0:00
You know it happens to almost every single one
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of us at some point. Like you're just at the
0:05
park or maybe sitting on your living room floor
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and you just happen to catch the eye of an animal.
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Oh yeah. Like your dog staring back at you. Exactly.
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Your dog or maybe a crow perched on a chain link
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fence or I mean even an ape if you're spending
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the day at the zoo. You lock eyes for a second
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and there is this quiet almost instinctual question
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that just pops into your head. Right. You're
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asking, how much is this creature actually like
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us? Yes. It's this profoundly human moment where
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we look across that species divide and we immediately
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wonder if they are running the same kind of internal
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software that we are. We really want to know
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if there is a recognizable mind looking back
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at us. Right. So we immediately start running
0:46
them through this mental checklist. We ask ourselves,
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well, can it use a tool the way I do? Or, you
0:52
know, can it figure out a puzzle? Could it learn
0:53
a few words if I taught it? Exactly. And welcome
0:57
to today's deep dive, where we are going to explore
1:00
the mechanics behind that exact feeling. We have
1:04
this really fascinating stack of source material
1:06
today centered around an excerpted essay on animal
1:09
minds. It's a great piece. It really is. And
1:12
our mission for this deep dive is to unpack a
1:15
massive, subtly misleading assumption that most
1:19
of us make about intelligence without even realizing
1:21
we're doing it. An assumption that honestly profoundly
1:24
warps how we interact with the natural world
1:27
around us. Yeah. And that assumption is that
1:29
intelligence is essentially this single vertical
1:32
ladder. Right. The ladder model. Right. So we
1:34
tend to picture this tall ladder where you have,
1:37
you know, the simple instinct driven creatures
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down at the very bottom. Then the slightly more
1:41
clever mammals, a few rungs up. And then us.
1:44
Yeah. Then us humans sitting very proudly right
1:46
on the top rung, just looking down at the rest
1:48
of creation. We treat nature like it's like a
1:51
video game. game leaderboard. Well, that's a
1:53
good way to put it. And humans always have to
1:55
get the high score. Right. But the sources we
1:58
are looking at today argue that grading animals
2:01
based on whether they can do human things is,
2:04
well, completely missing the point of what intelligence
2:07
actually is. I mean, we do it because it's comfortable.
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We are using the only yardstick we intimately
2:12
understand, which is our own human cognition.
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Right. But the fundamental argument of our source
2:17
text is that nature was never arranged like a
2:19
ladder at all. Intelligence is not this single
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linear progression toward human thought. So it's
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not a straight line upwards. Not at all. Instead,
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intelligence has evolved independently. many
2:32
times over, along wildly different paths. And
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it did this to solve entirely different environmental
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problems. So basically, once you dismantle that
2:40
imaginary ladder, the animal world completely
2:43
transforms. It stops being the strict hierarchy
2:45
of lesser and greater creatures. Yeah, it becomes
2:47
something much more interesting. It becomes this
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vast branching gallery of minds. And I think
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the crucial takeaway here is that these minds
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aren't just, you know, cheaper, less impressive
2:56
versions of human minds. Right, they're genuinely,
2:58
fascinatingly other. Other. Exactly. So today
3:02
we are going to walk through that gallery. And
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for anyone listening, we're taking our time with
3:07
this. So you don't need a biology degree to follow
3:09
along. Nope, not at all. And, you know, if we
3:11
want to truly abandon our human centric bias,
3:14
we have to start by looking at a form of intelligence
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that evolved in almost complete isolation from
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our own. Which brings us to the octopus. Yes.
3:22
The perfect starting point. So for us vertebrates.
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And just to clarify, that means you, me, anyone
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listening who happens to have a bony spine. Right.
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Animals with a backbone. Right. So for us vertebrates,
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our intelligence is housed in this heavily armored
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centralized skull. We're warm blooded. We walk
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on land and our social structures are totally
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central to our survival. And the octopus is basically
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none of those things. Right. It is a completely
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soft bodied, solitary creature living entirely
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underwater. Biologically speaking, I read that
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it's actually much closer. to a garden snail
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than it is to a human being. It is. I mean, if
3:59
you trace our evolutionary family trees backward,
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you had to go back roughly 600 million years
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to find the last common ancestor that humans
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and octopuses shared. Right. 600 million years.
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Yeah, it's a massive gap. Yeah. And that ancestor
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was likely this microscopic flattened worm just
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inching its way along the primordial seafloor.
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Wow. Yeah. So evolution took that simple organism
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and just split it down to entirely different
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developmental paths. So one path eventually leads
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to us, you know, inventing the wheel and recording
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deep dives. And the other path leads to this
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squishy eight -armed sea creature. Exactly. But
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the text highlights that despite being essentially
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a giant sea snail, the octopus is undeniably
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brilliant. I mean, the tricks they do are wild.
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They navigate intricate mazes. They figure out
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the mechanics of screw top jars just to get at
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the food inside. Which is impressive enough on
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its own. Totally. But the behavior that really
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stands out in the research is their tool use.
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Like some octopuses will carry heavy coconut
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shells across the ocean floor. Right, they just
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drag them along. Yeah, dragging them along just
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to have a mobile hiding spot to assemble later
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when they feel threatened. And that behavior
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right there is a massive cognitive leap. How
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so? Well... A soft bodied creature in a predator
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heavy ocean obviously needs armor. But carrying
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a coconut shell isn't just a neat physical trick.
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It actually demonstrates an ability to anticipate
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a future state. Oh, I see. Yeah, the octopus
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is not in danger right now, but it recognizes
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that it will be vulnerable later and it actively
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plans for that future need. OK, that is wild.
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But what makes the octopus truly alien, at least
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according to the text, isn't just what it thinks,
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but where that intelligence physically lives.
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Right. This is where it gets really strange.
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Because, OK. The fundamental building blocks
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of intelligence are neurons, right? The specialized
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cells that process information and make up a
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nervous system. Correct. And humans keep the
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vast majority of our neurons densely packed inside
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our heads. We are very centralized. But an octopus
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distributes its processing power. Like throughout
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its body. Yeah, exactly. Around two -thirds of
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an octopus's neurons are spread out along its
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eight arms. Two -thirds? Yep. And because of
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that unique biological distribution, Each individual
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arm can taste the water, feel its surroundings,
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and even initiate actions somewhat independently
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of the central brain. Okay, it reminds me of
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a corporate management structure. Oh, I like
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that. How do you mean? Well, human intelligence
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operates like a traditional company with a hyper
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-controlling CEO sitting in the corner office,
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the brain. Right, just micromanaging every single
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sensory input and physical output. Exactly. But
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the octopus's nervous system operates more like...
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like a coordinated committee of semi -independent
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branch offices. That's a really great analogy.
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So the central brain might set the overall goal
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like, hey, we need to hunt for crab today. But
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the branch offices, the arms, are out in the
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field making their own localized decisions. Yeah,
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they're deciding which rocks to reach under and
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how to coordinate the grass based on what they're
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tasting and feeling in that exact moment. It's
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so foreign. Like, how foreign is this way of
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thinking truly compared to our own experience?
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I mean, that distributed intelligence is profoundly
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foreign to us. We are so anchored to our singular
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centralized stream of consciousness. Trying to
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imagine a mind that exists simultaneously as
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a unified whole and as eight separate tasting
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thinking appendages, it really stretches the
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limits of our imagination. It really does. So
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if the octopus shows us that a centralized brain
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isn't the only way to process complex information,
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our next stop in the gallery shows us that you
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don't need a heavy mammalian brain to perform
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high -level computations. Yes. Let's look at
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the sky. Yeah, let's talk about corvids. And
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for those listening, corvids are the family of
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birds that includes crows, ravens, and magpies.
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And they are the absolute perfect counter -argument
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to the old ladder -style insult of being bird
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-brained. Right. I love that the text dismantles
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that. It's a completely outdated idea. Yeah.
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For a long time, early scientists assumed that
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because mammals have these large, heavy brains,
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physical size must equal processing power. So
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they thought a small bird brain simply couldn't
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hold complex cognitive software. Exactly. They
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assumed it was a hardware. limitation. But corvids
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routinely shatter that assumption. I mean, the
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essay notes they are among the greatest problem
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solvers in the animal kingdom. Oh, without a
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doubt. They don't just use found tools like the
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octopus, they actually manufacture them. Like,
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researchers have observed crows taking a straight
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piece of wire, evaluating it, and deliberately
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bending it into a hook so they can fish a piece
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of meat out of a plastic tube. Think about the
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cognitive load required for that task, though.
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It's a lot, right? It is. The bird has to recognize
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a problem, visualize a geometric solution that
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does not currently exist in its environment,
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understand the physical properties of the wire,
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and apply the necessary force to bend it. All
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while looking at a piece of meat it can't even
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reach yet. Right, and then use the tool to manipulate
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an object it cannot even directly see inside
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the tube. Many primate species, you know... our
9:12
closest genetic relatives, really struggle with
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that level of abstract physics. Wait, really?
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A primate would struggle with that? Oh, yeah.
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A lot of them wouldn't figure out the wire bending
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part. That is amazing. And they also hold grudges.
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The text details how crows can recognize individual
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human faces and will hold a grudge against a
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specific researcher for years. Yes. The facial
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recognition is incredible. And they even teach
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their flock mates to scold that specific person
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on site. But this brings up a massive question
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for me about the biological hardware. Okay, what's
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that? Well, humans and mammals have these big
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brains to hold all our intelligence. How on earth
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does a crow fit all of this, the tool manufacturing,
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the facial recognition, the social teaching,
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onto a physical brain the size of a walnut? It's
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a great question. And it comes down to, well,
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abandoning the idea that all brains are built
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on the exact same architectural blueprint. Okay.
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The text explains that the avian brain is wired
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completely differently than a mammalian brain.
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Their neurons are packed incredibly densely,
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and the connective pathways between those neurons
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are heavily streamlined. So it's kind of similar
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to the evolution of human technology, then? Like
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computers. Yeah. We moved from these massive,
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room -sized computers that relied on bulky vacuum
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tubes down to tiny silicon microchips. It's not
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about the overall physical size of the machine.
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Right. It's about the efficiency. Exactly. It's
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about how densely you can pack the transistors
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and how efficiently they route the information.
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Precisely. That specific architecture allows
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for high -level cognitive function without all
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the weight, which is, you know. Rather important
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if you need to fly. Ha ha. Yeah. I guess a heavy
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brain would be a liability for a bird. Definitely.
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Yeah. And you see this dense processing power
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vividly in their ability to perform mental time
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travel. Mental time travel. Yeah. So a corvid.
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will hide, or cache, food in hundreds of different
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locations across its territory to survive the
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harsh winters. Right, like squirrels do. Yes,
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but they don't just remember the geographic coordinates
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of the food. They remember what specific type
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of food they hid in each location. Oh, wow. and
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critically they understand the rate of decay
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wait so if they bury a piece of meat in a pile
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of nuts they know exactly how many days they
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have to retrieve the meat before it spoils they
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intentionally eat the perishables first and leave
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the non -perishable seeds for later in the season
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That is just mind -blowing. That requires spatial
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mapping, a complex memory timeline, and a clear
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understanding of time and decay all running seamlessly
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on that walnut -sized microchip. It really is
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definitive proof that nature found more than
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one way to construct a brilliant brain. But,
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you know, intelligence isn't only about manipulating
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physical objects like wires and coconut shells.
11:59
Right. Because for some species, the greatest
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cognitive demands come from navigating a complex
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social web. Exactly. Which brings us back to
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the ocean. Yes. Specifically to the cetaceans,
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the marine mammal group that includes dolphins
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and whales. Unlike the solitary octopus, cetacean
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intelligence is inextricably linked to their
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societies. They are deeply, deeply social creatures.
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Right. Their survival in the open ocean depends
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entirely on how they relate to, communicate with,
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and hunt alongside one another. They cooperate
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in these really clever, coordinated hunts. And
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because vision is limited in murky ocean water,
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and smell is largely useless underwater, cetaceans
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have develop incredibly sophisticated auditory
12:40
processing. To maintain those social bonds over
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vast distances, right? Exactly. Sound is everything
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to them. And the real revelation for me in the
12:47
source material was the concept of the signature
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whistle. Oh, it's fascinating. Yeah. So individual
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dolphins develop this unique, highly specific
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frequency and rhythm pattern. And what researchers
13:00
have found is that other dolphins in the pod
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will mimic that specific sound to call out to
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that particular individual. They're basically
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assigning a vocal label to... a specific member
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of their community which is a name for all practical
13:14
observable purposes yes they're using names they
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are calling each other by name that is so cool
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but it goes beyond just communication right because
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they are actively teaching each other too yes
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they are the text points out that different pods
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of the exact same species of dolphin will develop
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entirely different localized hunting techniques
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depending on their environment Right, like one
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group might learn to trap fish by swimming in
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tightening circles to create this sort of net
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of mud, while another group, miles away, figures
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out how to hydroplane onto a muddy beach to snatch
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fish. And they don't just do it. They teach these
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specific techniques to their calves. Yeah. It
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reminds me of a family passing down a generational
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recipe. Where it isn't instinct coded into their
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DNA, it's learned behavior that belongs to a
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specific community. So does this mean dolphins
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actually possess a simple form of culture? I
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mean, yes. That is the textbook scientific definition
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of culture. Culture is the non -genetic transmission
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of habits, information, and traditions. Wow.
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When a behavior is learned socially rather than
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inherited genetically, you are looking at a cultural
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species. Okay, so if an animal has a name and
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participates in a distinct culture, it implies
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they have a rich inner life and a clear sense
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of identity. But how do scientists actually test
14:29
for self -awareness in animals? It's notoriously
14:31
difficult. But that brings us to one of the most
14:33
famous behavioral experiments mentioned in our
14:36
sources, the mirror test. Right, the mirror test.
14:39
It was designed as a gold standard to check for
14:41
self -awareness. And the mechanics are really
14:44
simple. A researcher secretly places a mark,
14:47
usually a dot of odorless paint on an animal's
14:50
body, in a place where the animal cannot normally
14:53
see it. Like on its forehead. Exactly. Then the
14:56
animal is presented with a mirror. And if the
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animal looks in the glass, notices the dot on
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the reflection, and immediately reaches up to
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investigate its own forehead, it implies a profound
15:06
cognitive leap. Right, because it means the animal
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understands that the entity in the mirror is
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not a stranger. It's a reflection of its own
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physical self. Yes. And great apes, elephants,
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dolphins, and some corvids have all passed this
15:19
test. But the author of our source essay points
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out a massive structural flaw in how we interpret
15:25
this test. A huge flaw, yes. Because the mirror
15:28
test is a fundamentally visual puzzle. It is
15:30
entirely reliant on sight. And because it was
15:34
designed by human beings, well... We are intensely
15:37
visual primates. Right. We navigate our reality
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through sight. So when we want to test another
15:42
creature's intelligence, we instinctively build
15:44
a visual obstacle course. Exactly. But in doing
15:48
so, we ignore the concept of the umwelt. The
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umwelt. What is that exactly? It's a German word
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used in biology that means the unique sensory
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world that a specific animal inhabits. Okay,
16:00
and the essay uses the example of a dog to illustrate
16:03
this perfectly. Anyone listening who has a dog
16:05
knows that a dog's reality is constructed entirely
16:08
out of scent. They read the world chemically.
16:10
Right. So if a dog stands in front of a mirror,
16:13
it sees a flat piece of glass that just smells
16:16
like glass. It doesn't smell like a dog. So of
16:18
course, the dog fails the visual mirror test
16:20
completely. But has no reason to interact with
16:22
it as a dog. Exactly. But if you threw a human
16:25
being into a room and asked us to identify ourselves,
16:28
purely based on the unique chemical signature
16:30
of our own scent left on a fire hydrant. We would
16:34
fail completely. We would look incredibly stupid
16:36
to a dog. So aren't we basically judging a fish
16:39
by its ability to climb a tree here? Couldn't
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a dog have a deeply rich sense of self built
16:44
out of scent rather than sight? I agree completely.
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and the text agrees. The failure isn't in the
16:50
animal's cognitive ability. The failure is in
16:53
the design of the test. A dog absolutely might
16:56
possess a highly complex sense of self, but it's
16:59
a self constructed out of a continuous narrative
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of scent. Rather than a visual portrait. Yes.
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And this is the central, humbling difficulty
17:08
of studying animal minds. When we measure another
17:11
creature, we can only build tests out of the
17:13
building blocks of our own sensory experience.
17:16
So we risk marking an animal as stupid simply
17:19
because it's clever in a way we just didn't think
17:21
to check for. We punish them for not being human
17:23
enough. Exactly. And this leads directly into
17:25
what scientists call the two perennial traps
17:28
of animal observation. Okay, what are the traps?
17:31
Because if our tests are so biased by our own
17:34
human bubbles, how do scientists actually study
17:36
these animals without getting it totally wrong?
17:38
Well, the first trap scientists have to avoid
17:40
is over -reading, which is anthropomorphism.
17:43
Right, projecting human thoughts onto animals.
17:45
Yes. It's our natural human temptation to project
17:49
complex human emotions and thought processes
17:52
onto animal behavior that might actually be driven
17:55
by far simpler mechanics. Like when a dog tilts
17:58
its head at you, it is so tempting to assume
18:01
it's deeply pondering the existential meaning
18:03
of your words. When in reality, it's probably
18:05
just adjusting its... ear canals to pinpoint
18:07
the source of a sound. Right, exactly. So scientists
18:10
have to guard against that trap by insisting
18:12
on rigorous, repeatable experiments rather than
18:15
relying on charming anecdotes. But the second
18:18
trap is far more insidious, and it's called under
18:20
-reading. Under -reading. Yes. This is the mechanistic
18:23
assumption that animals are basically just simple
18:25
machines running entirely on blind robotic instinct.
18:29
So denying them any inner life or subjective
18:32
experience at all, it's like treating them as
18:34
biological windup toys. Or simple computer algorithms,
18:37
where a specific input strictly equals a specific
18:39
output. Just because it's convenient or because
18:42
we can't easily see the evidence. But why did
18:45
science lean so heavily into that trap? Well,
18:47
historically, it was a reaction against the overly
18:50
sentimental nature writing of the past. For a
18:52
large part of the 20th century, the scientific
18:54
community demanded rigid, objective behaviorism.
18:58
Ah. I see. Attributing thoughts, intentions,
19:00
or feelings to an animal was seen as deeply unscientific.
19:04
It was just safer for a researcher's career to
19:06
treat an animal like a complex thermostat. But
19:09
the text argues that the entire modern era of
19:12
animal cognition is essentially the story of
19:14
that thermostat model just crumbling to pieces.
19:17
Animal by animal, experiment by experiment, with
19:21
every new cleverly designed study that actually
19:24
counts for an animal's unique. Well, we keep
19:28
revealing capacities that we flatly denied were
19:30
possible just a few decades ago. Right. We find
19:33
tool use in octopuses, time travel in crows,
19:35
and cultural transmission in dolphins. So how
19:38
does modern science balance between these two
19:40
extremes now? The only intellectually honest
19:42
position left for a modern scientist is one of
19:45
genuine uncertainty and open curiosity. We have
19:48
to take other minds seriously. We have to acknowledge
19:50
their depth without pretending we can magically
19:52
climb inside their heads and know exactly what
19:55
it feels like to be them. Exactly. We have to
19:57
observe them on their own terms, not ours. So
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what does this all mean for you listening to
20:03
this right now? What is the main takeaway from
20:06
all the research we've explored today? I'd say
20:08
the deepest lesson here is that We have to retire
20:12
that ladder of intelligence for good. We really
20:14
do. We have to tear it down and throw it away.
20:16
There is no single vertical scale of cognition
20:20
with humanity standing triumphantly at the summit.
20:24
None at all. Instead, we live in this magnificent
20:26
branching bush of different minds. Each branch
20:30
was shaped by millions of years of evolution
20:32
to thrive in its own specific, unique environment.
20:35
You have the distributed, localized, tasting
20:37
intelligence of the octopus branch. You have
20:40
the dense, tool -making, time -traveling foresight
20:42
of the corvid branch. And you have the highly
20:44
fluid, social, name -calling world of the dolphin
20:47
branch. And look, the human branch is extraordinary
20:50
in its own right, absolutely. But it is just
20:53
one branch among many. It is not the universal
20:56
yardstick by which all other life must be measured.
20:59
So the next time you look at the animals we share
21:01
this planet with, whether it's a bird working
21:03
at your backyard feeder, or a dog sniffing a
21:06
fire hydrant on the street, or a documentary
21:08
about creatures in the deep ocean, remember this.
21:11
You are surrounded by real astonishing intelligence.
21:16
It isn't a lesser, flawed version of your mind.
21:18
It is something completely, beautifully different.
21:20
The hard part was never their cleverness. The
21:23
hard part was our own inability to recognize
21:25
minds that don't look and operate exactly like
21:28
our own. Exactly. Which leaves me with a final,
21:31
slightly mind -bending thought for you to mull
21:33
over as we wrap up. Oh, let's hear it. If we
21:36
struggle this deeply to recognize, measure, and
21:38
understand the intelligence of creatures, that
21:40
we actually share a planet with creatures we
21:42
share an evolutionary history and an environment
21:45
with, what does that mean for our search for
21:48
life out in the stars? That is a chilling thought.
21:50
Right. If we were to ever encounter a truly alien
21:53
intelligence out in the universe, would we even
21:56
possess the sensory tools to recognize it as
21:58
a mind at all? Think about that the next time
22:01
you lock eyes with an animal. Thanks for joining
22:04
us on this deep dive.