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Building an ABA Business Around Values, Quality, and the People Doing the Work · ABA Business Leaders

• speaker-0: Welcome to ABA Business Leaders, brought to you by 3Pie Square, where we discuss topics on how to create and grow an ethical and sustainable ABA practice. speaker-1: Whether you're starting, scaling, or thinking about selling your business, we're here to share insights, stories, and strategies to help you on the journey. speaker-0: We owned a successful ABA practice for over ten years. speaker-1: And now we help other ABA business owners do the same, without all the chaos. speaker-0: Stick around, you're in the right place. speaker-1: Hello everyone, welcome to ABA Business Leaders Podcast brought to you by Three Pi Squared. I'm April. And we have with us ABA on tap our good friends Dan and Mike. Welcome guys. speaker-0: I'm Steven. speaker-2: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's it's ⁓ it's our privilege, our pleasure. Thank you so much for having us back on. speaker-1: So we are actually continuing our conversation that we started over on their pod at ABA on tap. If you guys have been around for a while, you're not new to this. We've done a few pod swaps ⁓ in the past. So if you'd like to hear what we had to say for the first hour and some odd minutes, ⁓ the link will be in the show notes ⁓ to access their podcast. So go hop over there and go listen to the first part and then come back over and finish off the conversation. speaker-0: And you shouldn't even really need us to tell you that because you should already be listening to that podcast. speaker-1: Absolutely. Absolutely. So if you haven't, if you have not subscribed yet to ABA on tap, please go ahead and subscribe to their podcast. You won't be disappointed. speaker-2: Thank you. That means a lot to us. Thank you so much. speaker-0: Thank you. speaker-1: All right, so we talked about all things, ⁓ Steven's book and I got to see Steven squirm a little bit. Actually you did really well, I must say. Those of you have been around. speaker-2: We can continue the squirming. I'm not anywhere near the I th I talked about the things that time permitted. I I mean I could keep going, to be honest. So you guys let me know. speaker-3: All things. We just talked about some speaker-1: That is true. We scratched the surface. Yeah, I I was I really enjoyed that conversation because I got to sit back really for the most part and watch the three of these guys chat and it was really interesting. I enjoyed that a lot. so yeah, we can ⁓ if you guys have any other questions ⁓ that you have for Steven, if you want to discuss any of that more, I will let him scorm a little bit more. He'll he'll speaker-2: I'll find ways to I'll find ways to inject it. Don't you worry. speaker-3: You really enjoyed it April. Stephen, did you really enjoy that that that conversation? speaker-0: It it was fun. Once I get into it and I'm not thinking, yeah, I'm fine. Right. It it it really isn't that bad. speaker-3: That's your enjoyment. speaker-1: It's a standing in line for the roller coaster that's the most nerve wracking. speaker-0: Yeah, so yeah. speaker-2: We talked a lot about vision ⁓ during the first hour. So I and I think that's really framed the conversation nicely. Because you you can create a beautiful beautiful vision statement. It doesn't mean that you're gonna execute it as well. And then to your point, if you don't have it, ⁓ then you're you're gonna suffer. You're gonna struggle. You might get lucky. You you admit that you got lucky. But if I can kinda there's something you said in there that I thought was really meaningful and I'd love for you to expand and learn more from you directly. You call it the vision test. Is it short enough? Strong enough, personal enough, does it make you proud? I I that really hit home for me. I don't know if you can can lend a little bit more of your thought process there and and kind of expand on that. speaker-0: I I mean it just it has to be meaningful. So like I I can remember, you know, I spent ⁓ a long time in engineering ⁓ several companies and and they always had the most amazing mission statement and it was beautiful and they would put it everywhere. But like when we would do our i our ⁓ internal audits, that was one of the questions you had to ask. And no one could say it, right? No one understood it and What is the point of it if no one knows what it is and no one really knows what it means? So it really does need to be something simple that has meaning to the business owner and the leadership team. ⁓ but i you know, I I can't remember who said it. It was I think it was at that CP ABA conference ⁓ that w we were all involved in. Yeah. ⁓ but somebody said, your values are showing. I think they said something like that. Like they're always showing. And and so you could decide what shows up. And so if everybody in the company It might have been. Yeah. And like so if everybody in your company is thinking that billable hours is the only thing that matters and ⁓ that training is not important and that we don't ⁓ feel supported when we come with a concern, then th those are your values. Whether you have a beautiful mission statement or not. So it it needs to it needs to be important. It's not it doesn't need to be pretty. ⁓ yeah. I d I don't know if that answers your question. speaker-1: think too it's you know of course it would be easy just to ask like Claude or Chat GPT or whatever AI right ⁓ help me write my mission statement my values and it's okay to have it help you but like really make sure that you're asking it to ask you questions to help you to understand what your value would be like to really don't just take whatever whatever chat bot like fluffy values based mission statement that they give you with just a bunch of really fancy words because I've seen that too, right? And then I say, Well, what do you mean by this? And and they can't tell me. If you can tell me what if that if those fancy words are portray you and that's like perfect that that matches your way of doing things, fancy words are fine. But but if you're not able to tell me what your mission statement and values really mean, but they look pretty, like that's missing the point a bit. speaker-3: Mike ⁓ had he was part of a project and ⁓ you were using AI or Chad GPT or something for like a business projection and you brought it to me and you were like, Hey, can you read this? and the the people in your project were all happy about like, ⁓ look at how amazing this business plan, and it just immediately read like AI. It was like, Yeah, no, the just take out a couple words and put construction or put airline pilots or whatever. It doesn't matter. Like it's kind of like a generic templated thing, and it's it's very interesting. I j I remember it was in here that you showed it to me. Yeah. And it's so funny how people get all excited about it as your team was so excited, like, can you believe how awesome this is? And it's like, this is just a generic AI template. speaker-2: It it kind of it's an analog for me of ⁓ you know, being an undergrad and you have to write that six page paper and it's three in the morning and you realize that you can fudge the margins a little bit and make your font point fourteen and voila six pages. Yes. But your content is falling short, right? I the same experiment happened to me with I was working in a group and trying to generate CEUs really quickly and this was a couple of years back where the the chat GPT thing had just kind of hit the market. And we had this meeting and and very earnestly a couple of those individuals brought like this output from ⁓ you know, create a CEU, this, this and the other, and and you know, there was content there, so they wanted to run with it. And I was like, No, this is this this is founded on nothing. Like, I don't even know what this is really saying. And I so I went with it to try to, you know, kinda hash it out and we ended up with a product and I I just can't say that I ever felt comfortable. With having started that way. Now to your point, had we created some content fed it in for cleaning up refinement, you know, that's a big difference. But yeah, I mean you can you can have a lot of beautiful words and then your actionable pieces are zero, you know. Right. speaker-0: It and it's empty and people can see it and they can feel it. And there's a difference between one sentence, you know, we're ⁓ we we make sure that every staff is supported and you actually live that, right? You you can see it. People feel it and you have a twenty percent turnover. And then you can have two paragraphs of all the wonderful things and how you do it and blah blah and you have an eighty percent turnover and and like Those are, you know, what what's the point? Why are we doing this? And so I I think it it has to there has to be meaning when you read it. You have to feel it. And even when you read that back to me, like I I be like I can feel it in my gut, right? Like I can just like, yeah, this is important to me. And I don't I can't exactly tell you why it's important to me, but I can feel it in my gut that this means something. And so you need that. And I think your team has to feel that. And when your team feels it, ⁓ then you can execute and and you can do amazing things. But when everybody feels like it's fake, when you know, like there's ⁓ the they can see the strings or or, you know, they can you know they then people it's easy to see it and and no one is going to care. speaker-1: Like when it's ⁓ when it's disjointed too, right? Because we've seen mission statements that are really pointing towards offering quality services and for the learners to experience the greatest, you know, services. But they're skipping the steps. They're they're jumping over, taking care of their staff and and their team, and they're just trying to pour it into the learners and to their clients, but they're skipping a huge step. That also shows, right? speaker-0: And and the same on the business side. On the business side, too. You know, and we were talking about that in the in the first part, but i if you cannot pay the bills, then none of this matters. and it's important. You your company has to be profitable and you can wanna do this for free and I I can appreciate that so much. ⁓ but if you y your staff need to be paid and they need to be able to live, you need to be able to live. Like these are just it is what it is. And and so We w that has to be a focus. It ca you can't just put the blinders on, everything's gonna work out. I mean, again, you can get lucky, some people do, ⁓ but for most of us that that's not gonna work. However speaker-2: admitted to being a a bad capitalist. But one of the things that ⁓ and I'm gonna sound like one here, but I think it's important to discuss this. One of the things that we have learned that we had discussed before launching Ascend was the verbiage of we're losing versus the reality of we're not quite making in as much as we were on this margin. And I don't know if that makes any sense, but that is something that we've explored that's super important to us. Because I think you're right, Steve, if if you're losing, that that's gonna That's not gonna work toward your solvency. If you're losing perpetually, you're gonna lose completely one day. Ever and then Dan and I have had this several occasions now where it's like, ⁓ if we do it that way, the margin's not as high, but it's still workable. It it to I think we were talking about this earlier. It still keeps that employee that we value working and with a wage. It provides more importantly, provides the services to those people that want the continuity from this particular ⁓ so I that's ⁓ again I think it's an important difference. I don't know if you want to comment on it, but it's so easy to be like, ⁓ no, we're losing money on that. Well wait a minute, are we losing or did we take a little bit of hit a little bit of a hit on how much we were actually making? Right. speaker-0: Yeah, and I think that go again, like it it's so easy. And I think this happens to B C B A's, but definitely for me as like ⁓ you know, spending most of my life in engineering, you get lost to the numbers and and everything like and again if you don't bring that back and we're I'm gonna keep on saying it, right? But like if you don't bring that back to your vision and your values, then you get lost in the numbers. And I see well meaning B C B A's try to turn on key performance indicators and like speaker-2: Yeah, ⁓ speaker-0: You know, and and if it's going down, then we're scared, right? Like why is it going? We gotta get that number back up. And so like, you know, when when you are using these numbers, ⁓ they they're like ⁓ you know, it's it's like a quick and dirty, but it needs to go back to the intention. And if it's not capturing the the reason why you're doing this, then it's not the right number to be looking at. So you know, like profitability, yes, it it matters. It What profit what what what is that number? Is it five percent? Is it fifty percent? Right? Like that that's a decision that you're going to have to make. ⁓ and and so ⁓ but if if all you're looking at is no, this was better, but because this is ABA, welcome to the business of ABA. 'Cause every time you give a wage increase, your profitability is going down, right? Like that you didn't suddenly get o ⁓ a an increase from the funder, right? You probably got a decrease, to be honest. So ⁓ like so every time you give twenty five cents, thirty cents to that tech, you're losing money on that. So what what are we not giving races anymore? Right. Like so there, yeah. I I think it's important that you need to be in a window, right? And talk to your financial advisor, talk to your business partner, talk to your accountant. But when when you're in that window, because this is something that I always did. And and again, another question I often ask is w how big does this company get? Because Myself personally, I was growing just to grow because that's what you do. You just you don't yeah. Like I've I've been told this by every entrepreneur that I've ever seen, ⁓ every entrepreneur class that I have ever taken. If you're not growing, you're dying. So okay. So that means you grow. That's what you're supposed to do. And then again, it's like, why are you doing that? I don't know. They told me I had to do it. So like it, you know, like again, it goes back to why are we doing this? speaker-3: Gail. speaker-0: What is the reason behind this? And yeah, so knowing how much you need to feed yourself and how how to have a comfortable life. Because again, if you're struggling and stressed over money, ⁓ then are you going to be providing ⁓ high quality of training and support to your stuff? Probably not. speaker-3: Yep. That's where I think the KPIs are so interesting because ⁓ the first time I I mean I'd been exposed to ⁓ but was in the ABA field was that the last company that we worked at before we created a send got bought out by a private equity company and they came in and they you know, they had all that private equity knowledge and they were gonna talk to us about KPIs, which wasn't even anything like revolutionary, but it was you know, people above above our pay grade to justify that they were above our pay grade. But I've never heard people talking about KPIs for anything other than finance related stuff. It's never like, hey, let's sit down and talk about the KPIs of people meeting our meeting their goals or key performance indicators of our people actually retaining their sessions. Only in the context of because we need to have the sessions for income. But it's never like clinical KPIs. And I remember you heard somebody on Joe Rogan like a while ago and he had a line The you that you shared that was so enlightening. It's like once you define something by like a single metric, it becomes like revolved around that. Yeah. And that's standardizing that line. But the KPIs were always and which meant the supervisor meetings were always about maximizing like speaker-0: Okay, but yeah. speaker-2: That's Social media, ⁓ they were talking about social media platforms, and I think that's the perfect example here. They're after one thing, time of your engagement. Whatever they do to get that, they're gonna do it because it proves mega profitable, right? ⁓ so that I think that's the example. I forget the phrase, it was beautiful. I'll try to find it again. speaker-3: So I'm not saying KPIs aren't important on the profitability side. They certainly are, but I've just noticed in my experience that when you're into the more private equity side of things or even just the larger scale ABA outfits, the all the meetings and the KPIs are solely on finance and then you lose the clinical discussions and nobody really cares about that as long as the hours are getting rendered. speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we've had multiple conversations more recently looking at even and I'd love to know your your input, your thoughts on this, ⁓ that major ⁓ I don't know if it's fair to say a majority. I'm gonna say it. I could be wrong by saying that word, but you know, a lot of us in the field are trained to deliver AVA to for early intervention to kids with autism. Right. And that's what a lot of the programs train for. And so the question is like, Do we really truly understand the science as a whole, as a collective? Do we really understand it? And if we did understand the science, because I see a lot of gaps and ⁓ thinking, are why are we not more easily generalizing these skills? Like kind of to what you said on the first part of this, with you know, k if you can't sh you know, shape behavior with your staff, like what are you know, how are you gonna work with my child? So looking at like the KPIs and the the clinical piece versus You know, like so being able to, even if they aren't KPIs, like even if you don't call them that, like what kind of data collection do we want to what what's gonna tell us what we really need it to tell us, right? Because just like we're programming for our learners, right? We could we could have our text taking a million data points the entirety of the session. I've I've worked with some programs that that's exactly what you do. And and or do you take a few selective pieces of data to tell you what you really need. And sometimes you have to start out taking more data while you try to fine tune and figure out what's telling you what's necessary, what's gonna be the best use of your time so you can still spend the FaceTime with your with your client. But I don't know. So so I would love to know your thoughts on like how we're able to generalize do we really know ABA? And and if so, like how are we generalizing this to our staff as we're looking at trying to to shape their behavior or trying to support them with making sure that they're learning and and I don't even want to say producing, but I guess there is some pit bit of producing that has to happen. So speaker-2: That's a that's a wonderful question. That's a wonderful premise there. let me see if I can how would I break that down? So to you kind of your original question, do our RBTs, for example, really know ABA? I think that I'm gonna go with your original thought that they don't. They get trained on primarily on delivering services to kids with autism that so why we need visuals. Well why? Well, because kids with ⁓ autism tend to have auditory processing disorders. Not completely erroneous a statement. A little bit dangerous though, if you don't start individualizing somewhere in there. I I like to say, and I don't know that this doesn't necessarily answer the question any further, but then the idea that the ABA they do learn, say for their competency exam, if if all they do is if all you do is train them to pass that, they are nowhere near ready to conduct an effective session with a kid with autism or otherwise. They just know the technology and these terms. So I guess to try and provide some semblance of a comprehensive answer to your incredible premise, ⁓ I think the answer is no. And then the answer is we have to teach more of that ABA and make sure that then we translate it into how does this get implemented during an effective ABA intervention that is being funded by a medical insurance company to be specific, for example. So I mean that that leaves a a lot to be wanted there. And and we know that. We've we've lived it. All of us understand exactly the gaps that I'm describing. And ⁓ figuring out how to fill them effectively and ongoing, that's a that's a bigger question. That's tough. You know, that's the that's the that might be the unbillable bring you into the office and I have to pay you, but we're not bringing any money in because I need to train you beyond the week or whatever that we did of the forty hour classroom training. We you need more. That means that now I need to show up and see do I have the five five hours on this contract to do additional supervision with your ⁓ protocol modification. Sorry. Well I need to modify the protocol. ⁓ or are we gonna have to invest some non-billable time? All of which, to the beautiful quotes from your book, Steven, go against profit. All of those things. You give up ⁓ you know you increase a wage, that means you just cut into your profit margin. That does not make the strong capitalists happy at all, ever. I hopefully I answered part of your question there. speaker-1: No, I just I r I really love ⁓ having this conversation. And I think the more we have this conversation, the more it brings the curiosity within how we are practicing and and how you know, how we show up in our own company. So speaker-0: Yeah, I I think going back to the KPI, again, something I I've I've seen this in engineering firms, I've seen it in ABA companies. It's not really any different, to be honest. Like it's a shortcut. It's a shortcut to something. And you you hope it is to the thing that you're trying to measure. But a lot of times it it becomes a game of how to optimize that number. And so especially when ⁓ y you're getting paid by that. So you're incentivized by that. Maybe your bonus goes by that KPI. ⁓ like an example that I often use in ABA is ⁓ let's say we're measuring ⁓ skill acquisition as as our our fundamental quality measure on on on on our services. So we're making an assumption that we can provide high quality services because we our our kids ⁓ acquire skills at this rate. ⁓ but now we start to incentivize by that. And so a PCBA realizes wait, so the more skills I ⁓ acquire, the more money I make. So this thing that I would have normally done in 10 steps, I'm now gonna do it in 50 steps because you know what I mean? And so now we're we've lost all all intention. We've lost all of our vision and now we're all wow, look at that number. Isn't that a great number? Right. And but we're are we actually providing better services? And and one when I look because we have a s I what is that an eight hour, nine hour class on KPI in ABA. one of the first ones that I I bring up is there was a fast food restaurant and they started using KPI. And their measure was time and drive-thru. So they made the assumption that our customers would be happier if we decrease the drive-thru time. So that that's great. We're going to measure only drive-thru time. So then they started getting more complaints. 'Cause the fries were cold, they got a stale hamburger, right? But man Yeah, yeah, missing things from the order, whatever, right? And so, but man, that number was down like by fifty percent. We must be doing good. So, like again, you can lose everything if you're not measuring the right thing. And it's not going back to that intention. So, like that curiosity, that that that vision still needs to be embedded in whatever you're measuring. speaker-1: Thanks from that order, yeah. speaker-0: And and I would assume that it's the same in a treatment plan, right? Like you can measure all kinds of things to make it look like you've been improving ⁓ the quality of life of the child so that you can meet the insurance requirements and we we have the right number of targets and goals and all all of those things. But is it actually providing a meaningful difference to the parents and to the family and and to their their siblings and the child? I d I don't know, right? But the treatment plan looks amazing. So speaker-3: That applied aspect, right? That first dimension. The other thing you said that I thought was really illuminating in the KPIs and measuring the drive-thru is that I've seen it happen so often too, is like the the higher-ups think it's like a vacuum. Like think we're operating in a vacuum and you change one thing and nothing else changes. So it's like, hey, ⁓ let's ⁓ we need we need to. I remember at one of our previous companies, we were called into the higher ups, and you know, when on the business side, it's just Money in and money out, so they weren't able to necessarily get more money in. So there's a solution was a amazingly intelligent solution. Well, we're gonna ⁓ we need you to get rid of six RBTs by the end of the month. And we ended up not doing that and pushing back. But it's this idea of does that just happen in a vacuum? We get rid of six RBTs and sure you have less money out. That's it. No we're not gonna lose any money in on that side of things or we're not getting enough money in. So you need to sit down with the parents and figure out exactly when their availability is and you need to have more sessions and you have to do more hours. Is that is that it that just that's gonna magically happen. The parents aren't gonna get stressed out. They're not gonna cancel more, which actually might result in less sessions. They're not gonna be unhappy with the services and leave. It's this weird like anecdotal, very linear if we just do this one thing, it'll solve all the problems. And it's like, no, there's a million other variables that should probably be considered. You just made me think about it when you talked about that drive through example. Sorry to cut you off. speaker-0: No, so it it's like it very like and again s it like I don't know when this happened in ABA, but like ⁓ KPI just seems to be so important right now. And like I I I I I don't know, I lived it for twenty years, so maybe like I'm like speaker-1: I think we get like we get people coming to us, right? Like with help. Okay, help us, we need help. We don't know where to get started. We know KPI is important, but we don't know where to get started. And it's like they've l is part of the checklist or something. Sure. speaker-0: But it's also like people are using KPI as a ⁓ like punishment. So and and like again, that's not what this what what are you doing here, right? Like why are we doing this? speaker-3: Aren't there lot of KPIs? I mean, isn't theoretically every protest data point on a data sheet a key performance indicator of that process? Or the amount of times that they self advocate for themselves or go to the bathroom. Like those are all key performance indicators of that individual's performance. Yes. And without that individual, we don't have a business. And to be fair, without the business, we don't have the individual. Sure. ⁓ so it does kind of but when all of the KPIs are just on the business side, then you lose the KPIs of the client side. speaker-0: Yep. Yeah. And so like where I come at this again with KPI is it has to be based on the values. So with the way that we work it is you have your vision and your values, your mission statement. And those those have to be meaningful, right? They have to they have to inspire yourself at least. ⁓ and then ⁓ then you you turn that into quality statements and then we can measure KPI from those quality statements. And so like it has to work that way. You can't skip. You can, but then you're gonna have garbage in, garbage out. Right. And again, why are we doing this? Are are is it you don't like your staff because they're not listening to you and you need a way to punish them? Okay, that's fine. Like I I I I can feel that. But like what do we want? Do we want meaningful change or are you just wanting to not give them unemployment when you fire them? Like those 'cause those are different things. ⁓ and we can maybe we can do both. ⁓ but ⁓ you know, I I don't know. Like that's just it it has to go back to that that vision and th those values. speaker-3: I have a question for you on that if you don't did you and I can speaker-2: Behavior analysts does it take to motivate a bad employee? speaker-3: I don't know. So I have a question for you all. ⁓ so you've talked about the importance of vision and values, and I couldn't agree more. ⁓ we talked at the end of the podcast on our end ⁓ about your new practice management software that we're really excited that you all are finally releasing, and we're really excited to try it. ⁓ and you talked about, you know, the the vision and values of an ABA company has to be deeper than we just want to do it better. It's got to be more robust than that. So I'm curious when when you all decided to do your own PM software, ⁓ what was your vision and values and what did you seek out? Because th there's a lot of people in that space, ⁓ and there's a lot of players like, you know, Central Reach that have been doing it forever. ⁓ what did you hope to bring to the market? ⁓ yeah, that that they don't bring, or like what was your impetus to do it? speaker-0: Yeah, I mean what we're trying to bring is something that we've heard from everyone, including ourselves. We just want one system that does everything. I'm I'm tired like I can't remember the fifteen passwords I have and and like getting lost and doing ⁓ okay, I have to copy and paste this over into this other thing and then it does this and then I copy and paste that back over into this. And it just like the admin burden on B C B A's and especially business owners is crippling. And and so like if we can provide them a comprehensive all in one system that gives them everything that they need without that that lift of having so many different things, I I think that we can make an impact in this space. So when we were looking at this, the first thing that we added was a training because I felt like we could provide a training platform that was better than anybody else because nobody else was doing it. And so that's kind of the first thing that that we did was to try and build that out. And then, you know, coming with this practice management software that has been built by clinicians that understand this. And I think that is the difference between what we're offering and what others are, where you have a tech company coming in and and trying to implement something that fits ⁓ the the the field, where we have built it around clinicians building a system that supports the field. speaker-3: Okay. ⁓ that's awesome. I was I was just curious because I know I don't know if it's a saturated space or not, but I know there's a lot of big players in there and that's really interesting to hear your your perspective. So it's really having that kind of one stop shop for everything designed by clinicians around clinicians. speaker-0: Yeah. I I I don't see it, right? There are there are some out there and I like there are some amazing ones out there that we have recommended. And ⁓ and but the problem is is you know, we would recommend one and then ⁓ we get a lot of good feedback and then, you know, three months later I would recommend it again and someone would tell me why in the world are you recommending that thing, does this and it's awful and it sucks, right? And maybe it got an update. ⁓ I I don't know. So I I think that We wanna take that feedback from our customers and make something that i that they enjoy to use as much as you can possibly enjoy a practice management software. speaker-3: I mean that's exciting. Not many people are as looped into the greater ABA field as you two are. speaker-0: Yeah. I mean we did that with the handbooks, we did that with our training system, we've done that with our consulting. As hard it as it is to take ⁓ criticism, it's even harder to take the praise for me. so you know, I I would rather take all of that frustration and anger that ⁓ B C B A's have with the systems they have and build something that they would like to use. speaker-1: I mean I think ⁓ it's it's us following our values, ⁓ two of which are lean in leaning in and ⁓ like clear communication. So I don't know if you wanna speak to those more. speaker-0: Yeah, I and also curiosity. Right. Like so curio how can we make this better, right? What are the barriers? Why why is it so difficult to find something that is usable and functional? And I think it comes back to the fact that, well, this one does this and that one does this, but they don't do it together. And so and and so I think that is what we're trying to build is something that ⁓ it it serves all of the purposes that are needed ⁓ on a day to day. speaker-3: April, what's your ⁓ because Steven, you're kinda you've always been the more technical side, so PM's probably, you know, right up your alley. April, what was your thought when when that idea was generated? Be more of the clinical side of things? speaker-1: Yeah, so back when we had our own when we had our own ABA agency, Steven actually made our own practice. What did you what was it called? The quality He had a name for it. speaker-0: ⁓ that's what the those are the handbooks quality management system. speaker-1: And then we just had did you have a neighbor? It was like our own like data collection and session notes. Yeah, he completely customized our own and that we ran within our own company. And ⁓ he took that and kept growing it and that he would never release it. ⁓ But ⁓ and ⁓ and so then then he kinda dropped that. But then we no longer had our ABA company and then speaker-0: I would never relate. Kind of like the buck. speaker-1: We were all into three pi squared. And and that was something that he kept talking about. And I think really on my end, I was ⁓ quietly supporting him like ⁓ to to get that out there because I think that there is a need. And I was telling someone the other day, I've never used a practice management software outside of the one that he created back when we had our own ABA. So I'm really transparent to say I don't know how it compares to others. But what I do know about it is that What I what we didn't have in that initial version that's in there now is so important to me because of ⁓ you know, my ADHD brain, right? One of the biggest things that I love about this is that the widgets of being able to collect data and having those little pop-up screens so that you're not having to shift so much between screens was a really a really cool thing for me because I think that that piece and there's a few a few pieces within that is making it to where you can record data and work on your session note throughout the session. And so clinically, I think that that helps us to have more accurate data. I think that that helps us to be able to cashure that session ⁓ in a way that we're not like I don't understand. ⁓ we hear some companies will say, ⁓ you have to have all of your session notes completed by the end of the week. Well what what happened like what about the Monday session? Do you really remember enough to be able to go back and write that? And then we have the whole do you get paid for writing your session notes? Can you bill for that time? But that's probably my most favorite thing about it clinically is that you don't have to worry about that anymore because this is set up in a way where you can just collect data and work your session note out during your session and then when your session's over, your session's over and you can go on about your life. speaker-0: And and like the treatment plan is in there with the goals and targets and you know, so like everybody from the team can see those things. So it's it yeah, I think it just makes it easier. speaker-3: I was just gonna say we finally got Mike to the point where he's doing his session notes like day up now or week up, man. We man's killing it. speaker-2: In all fairness, my data's on here, but I think what so I I think the the the exciting point that's being made here is that when you're done running a session, the last thing you wanna do is go rewrite about all of it. Yes. And you're saying, No, you finish, you wrap up the last thing, clean it up a little, you're done. I think that makes a huge difference. And that's been my I mean that that has been ⁓ my struggle ⁓ you know historically like and I finally found a way to capture enough here on my phone, like quickly, right? And then yeah, at the end unfortunately I still go at the end of the day or later that week and by capturing my data points then I'm able to capture remember what happened and it it works out okay. But what you're describing is really facilitates the process in a much cleaner way. ⁓ I think that makes it total sense. speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. I totally anyone who I worked for for all of those decades before we started our own company, I'm so sorry. Because I I was like the worst. Like April, April, we just need your session. We need your data sheets. We need your session. And then for us too, like I was like, Steven's like sending me a need to get their data sheets in like their session was completed on time. And I was like, Okay, I really need you to complete your data sheets on time. speaker-0: The same thing. You did the same thing for ⁓ speaker-3: Listen to people who speaker-1: I get it's hard, but just do it, okay. And then like people would say, Well, how do you do it? or how you know, 'cause it was kinda then I was like, Okay, I'm living a lie. it was it was just horrible. But but I would I would make session, I mean, like this is from being in the field for decades. I was back from where you had your clipboard with your session summary notes. Like you I had all of my data on like it was my cheat sheet, right? And so I had like my tallies, my, you know, my my time, my narratives my, you know, plus minus data or my trials or my whatever. Like I always had it on one page. And but the thing is then, you know, what happens if you if you lose those pages? And then now on the phone. But what happens if you have staff who are actually collecting their data in real time on their on their personal phone and maybe they're accidentally including PHI there, right? Or what do they do once they transfer that data over? So I mean there's just a lot of icky like, but so so I told so I told Taylor, he's our I can't remember what his title is but he's like the B he's a B C B A and and he's the extra He's right there. ⁓ he is right here. We just talked to Blue. He is see everybody's got fancy titles and I can't keep up. Director of product experience. ⁓ and he's a B C B A and he was he's worked from every role from RBT to clinical director. I don't even know where he's gone with that. ⁓ I told him yes I know where I'm going with that. I told him I was like this makes me want to start another ABA practice. And Steven was like get out, Snoop speaker-0: Actually. speaker-1: Not having it. But but like it's so tidy and it's so Yeah, it's so clean. It's so like I'm like I c I w I need to try I need another chance to try it getting my section notes done on time. speaker-3: Yes. speaker-2: I'm telling you. speaker-3: You have some making up to do to the universe, April? speaker-1: I do, I feel like it. I feel like But now I get my consult notes done in time. So that ⁓ so I I do have a l you know, I'm getting better, so speaker-2: All right. This is a perfect time to bring back a a little quotable here. Because what you're talking about are so I think what we're talking about is you've done the intense, the important work with the client, and then in the past, now your notes and the documentation can run the risk of becoming laborious work. The stuff you don't want to do. So now you you said something in the book that really caught my attention. You said onboarding needs to match the intensity of the job. And I think that what you're talking about In terms of the systems facilitating your process might actually potentiate the idea of onboarding now having a little bit more substance than just the administrative this password set up your stuff on. Those are all important things. But when those overwhelm now the other stuff, ⁓ the intensity might be compromised. I I'll let you expand on that. speaker-0: Yeah, I mean I like it's a story that I sometimes bring up is where when we started, ⁓ I I'm I'm super cheap. That's just ⁓ that's that's my function. I'm the cheap one in this relationship. And so li I found every free ⁓ HIPAA compliant system that we could possibly use, or the cheapest ones humanly possible. So we had a a messaging service that was free and we had a a cloud storage system that was really cheap, and then a calendar was a different system and ⁓ the and our data collection was a different system. So like I think we had nine systems all together that we had to manage and none of them talked to each other. And the amount and I saved $22 a month for every employee. Right. That's it, that's all I say. So but I man, did I ever save a lot of money? But ⁓ like the the amount of time that was lost ⁓ from our staff, tax ⁓ admin B C BAs and it was And and the the what we were giving them was the most awful, terrible part of the job, right? It was the part that nobody wanted. Yeah. So ⁓ yeah, I think that if we can reduce the amount of admin burden where it it's just easier for the staff that are already doing a very difficult job, I think it it can it can help. Yeah. I don't know. speaker-2: It might on a on a bigger scale, right? I mean, I do th I do think that a big part of the problem with ABA outfits is because of the existing systems, it's easy to become super top heavy very quickly. It's it's hard not to have to hire somebody to sit on the phone on hold for four hours to deal with you know two claims, right? ⁓ but but maybe this is what you're talking about. Maybe now this cuts into that. speaker-0: I mean, I'm I'm hopeful that we can do that. You know, like we were working with another customer where they had to hire someone just to check the session notes, right? Because their system it didn't save certain things and and so they had to go in and double check. Was a treatment plan attached? What ⁓ they would have to check the session note, the narrative was correct, and like no one was checking yeah, it was just they were spending twenty minutes, I think it was twenty minutes, ⁓ for every session that they did. ⁓ an admin person was doing that. speaker-1: To review it. That wasn't even to like get the the get the like edits or corrections or speaker-0: And so like that, like what what yeah. So ⁓ I I'm hopeful that this can be done better. and and it makes it's the hard part of the job. I I and it's the part of the job that's difficult that you didn't sign up for, right? Like our RBTs and BCBAs and this job is very difficult. But like there's a reason why you do because you love to see the other side of that. But there's no other side to this. ⁓ the copy and pay like you know what I mean? The admin stuff is just torture. It's just torture. So if we if we can eliminate some of that and then we can take that feedback from from the group of ⁓ companies that we work with, I I think that we are situated to maybe provide a better experience. And ⁓ where I also like where we're going is the training platform and providing that onboarding training that maybe no one ever got. And and some of our business owners may not be happy with the training that we're providing the staff, but like, you know, that that you are you should be getting paid for drive time, right? That you you you do have permission to advocate for yourself. speaker-1: I gonna say we spend we have a lot of trainings on like how to advocate for yourself, how to know how to if you have a question about ethics, how to bring that up in a way that's going to be heard. speaker-0: That's yeah. speaker-3: It's funny you're bringing up the one stop shop ⁓ because our business investors always just been big on like efficiency and that's been a word that's kind of triggering me because I've worked for companies that talk about use that word and know anything but ⁓ but you know we have a PM software, we have a notes software, we have payroll software. And I remember when I wa when we were starting to start this company, I've reached out to a bunch of people, you all very much included, and one of the people that I reached out to that was super helpful really, really appreciated her input. she does everything like manually. So she has like Excel data points. ⁓ she does all her CPS fifteen hundred forms, she does QuickBooks, ⁓ paper data, ⁓ to save money. And I'm just looking at it on our end like I'm losing my head with all of the the PM software and stuff. I have no idea how anybody would do it without ⁓ PM software and have any semblance of sanity and be able to pass an audit. speaker-0: Yes, that's the problem. Is that it's the recruitment audit is going to come. It's not a it's not an if, it's a when. And you know, I go back to the the audits that we had. They were horrible. speaker-1: Paper, yeah, we had paper data and speaker-0: We spent what probably the first audit we did, I'm not saying funder names, but ⁓ the first audit we did ⁓ probably spent twenty hours of scanning and more. speaker-1: We we had a ca we had to cancel sessions because we needed our B C B A's digging through paperwork, trying to find the accurate notes. speaker-0: And then and then we finally sent it in and they came back to us and said, Hey, you did everything wrong. Like like none of these were right. And because all of these were wrong, we can extrapolate, because in Virginia this was a lot they were allowed to do this. They could extrapolate. So we're going to assume that you did these 20 sessions wrong. So not only did you do those wrong, but you did all the sessions over the last two years wrong. And so now you owe us $140,000. Surprise. And so Yeah, they didn't have to check. They already knew because based on the the score we got. ⁓ and so that that no, I I remember this number. Yeah, it was a hundred and forty thousand and I was like I was on the verge of a heart attack. Like you have no like I spent that money. Like it's gone. That that doesn't exist anymore. And so I that's only Jody and Kim. ⁓ yeah, and and now Kim owns the ⁓ attorney office. Now it's Kim Mac Rosenberg but that's speaker-1: We learn. So we learned that that they're looking for fraud. Like we we had enough evidence there to prove that we had sessions, that we did not commit you know, fraudulent service. And and fraud was not there. Now what we did learn was how we could do better at documenting our our our sessions in a way that the insurance wanted to see it. ⁓ speaker-0: At the end of the day, right, we talked to Kim, we talked to Jody. They were like, Yeah, that's not happening. And so then, you know, they so they I mean it was expensive. It was expensive. ⁓ I'm not gonna lie, but but then, you know, they went back and forth between the attorneys and and then I don't know, it was like eight months, nine months later, ⁓ they sent a letter and said, My bad, don't worry about it. And so like that that was that was it. It was over, right? Like and I I can remember we had another funder audit, they asked for I don't know, four hundred dollars back. But I knew that we did the right thing. And so we got the letter from Kim. I think we probably paid $2,000. And then we sent it to them and they were like, okay, fine. All right. So we didn't have to pay the four hundred dollars back, but we spent two thousand to not pay the four or the four hundred. Right. So but it was just a matter of principle for me. Like I'm not Like if I've done something wrong, then yeah, okay, I'll I'll pay you back. But I didn't do anything wrong, so you're not getting your money 'cause that was my money. So you know. speaker-2: Well and you came to that four hundred, who knows, right? Maybe they speaker-0: That's the thing. That was my thing. And when they see Kim Mac Rosenberg on the letter, they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, like not doing it. I'm not doing it. ⁓ and then they go to the next sucker down the street, right? That's gonna give them the money without even thinking. And and so that you know, that that's why when anybody has a recruitment audit and they mention it on Facebook or they email us. That's the first ⁓ the you gotta talk to Kim before you do anything. Just talk to her. and and yeah, it it so like that that just goes back to like, you know, I look at that, you know, twenty hours, let's say let's say it was twenty hours of time for the B C B A. That is twenty twenty hours times a hundred. So it's two thousand dollars that they could have been spending actually working with the child and Teaching their staff and you know, but they're doing this thing because I wanted to save twenty two dollars a month. Yeah. You know, like it it's just there there is a cost to saving money, ⁓ and that that's one of them. speaker-3: I have a separate question, but ⁓ did you have any no no. So ⁓ if you don't mind, I wanted to change gears. ⁓ I just want to get y'all's opinion on something because you are so looped into the field, much more so than Mike and I, if you don't mind. ⁓ kind of a topical question. ⁓ you all familiar with the RBT strike in Maryland? Yeah. any ⁓ yeah. What y'all are more looped in than we are? speaker-1: So when we did our I Hate My Job series, what was that, 2025 now? Was that when it was? ⁓ and where we ⁓ I think one ⁓ we just re-aired one ⁓ because because of we thought it was relevant to share ⁓ the information that that we kinda got from that. you know, trying to find out from RBTs w what what they need and what the hardships are. Now, I say find out really we are looking for confirmation because we're pretty certain that we had a good feel on what the issue is. ⁓ and and one of the main things is not being not treating your staff well, right? Not knowing how to treat your staff, not knowing what you need to do to treat your staff, meaning, you know, how to pay them. ⁓ the biggest thing is training, right? Throwing them in with no training or not adequate training. Litharia said not paying them enough. But like not paying for like drive time and ⁓ Some of the stuff that you were talking about earlier, like those sneaky ways to get around things just to be able to not have to pay you for stuff. people are still to this day have they have RBTs as independent contractors. speaker-2: Is that speaker-3: Sure, yeah. speaker-0: You're kidding. speaker-1: Like it's the twenty the twenty nineteen twenty nineteen or twenty seventeen BACB newsletter even says it was like I remember it was like pre-COVID, but it I mean it's it's been out there a really long long years, right? That the B C B A said no you can't do that. You know, IRS says no you can't do that because ⁓ even we like to even make the case that mm B C B A is probably in most chances in most cases shouldn't even be an independent contractor because they they provide a key pivotal backs up the operation, right? speaker-0: Yeah, that was twenty eighteen. speaker-1: So yeah, so they're still paying tax people are still paying taxes as independent contractors. speaker-0: Yeah, so I d like I you know what, this is something that I have been avoiding just because it's the summer and we've been busy. ⁓ so I don't know all of the RBT's grievances, but I think it was Alison, do you remember? Yeah, so she has what is her podcast? speaker-1: Two and one. ⁓ no, that's not Allison. Well Allison has a podcast too, but ⁓ Everyday ABA. Everyday ABA and payola speaker-0: Was it the so somebody one somebody came out of speaker-1: They have two RBTs on their staff. Like I mean on their podcast, their co hosts are R BTs. speaker-0: Yeah, but somebody came on our po I don't remember who it was. So ⁓ sorry about that. But ⁓ somebody came on our podcast and they said that the BACB came out with something that speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, Alison did talk about that. Yeah. I mean we've been talking about this R B T thing for a bit, right? speaker-0: The that like so they gave like the top reasons why they left their last company. That's right. And and I think eighty percent ⁓ responded with not enough support or no training. So I'm going to assume that these RBTs probably want more support and they probably want more training. I don't know the wages ⁓ and and I know like I I've seen on Facebook a lot of people are are frustrated because they're getting paid too much or they're you know, like and So I don't know what the funders ⁓ what what they cut or if they didn't cut. I d I don't know if there's something going on there, which ⁓ yeah, if you can't pay the bills, that sucks, right? And I could understand why you'd strike for that. ⁓ but I I am assuming more of the issue here is again, I'm ignorant of the the exact going on, ⁓ what what their grievances are. ⁓ but I'm assuming it's support and training and ⁓ yeah, train your staff, support them. speaker-2: I did go on a little hunt. I'll I'll continue just to try to find I d to see if any of those folks wanna come on and talk. They may not be able to at this point in time and or maybe some of them are too eager to talk and you know, we want to get a straight story. I know ⁓ I did reach out to the agency that was involved and ⁓ they I haven't heard back. I didn't think I would. And I I'm pretty sure they can't say anything, so I I don't blame them. But anybody's listening out there, you guys are part of this situation, we'd love to talk to you. I'm sure April and Steve would too. speaker-1: Right. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, we'd we taught like we've been trying for years to get RBTs to come on. 'Cause I think like speaker-1: We wanna give them a voice, right? We want them to be heard. speaker-0: And I want business owners to hear it because I know like, you know, not not owning a business. When I I was promoted with one of the the companies that I used to work for, ⁓ it was so quick that transition from like leadership to the you know, and and like the things my you just forget. You you have other drama that you have to deal with and and they're just things that now you you have to do that you didn't have to before. And so like it's good to get those reminders of hey I still exist, right? This job is still really difficult and I need you to hear that. And I think that business owners kinda lose that connection. ⁓ they don't get that candid conversation from RBTs. They may not be as comfortable to come to their their business owner and say, ⁓ this job speaker-1: I mean if the if the expectation is this R B T's not gonna be here at the end of the year and we're just gonna hire someone else like speaker-0: Then why would you want to listen to them? Yeah. speaker-2: That's an interesting premise we we start bringing up here. So even in terms of the idea that a newly minted BCBA gets thrust into a leadership position. We were just talking about this. It's actually our last episode with Kristen Peterson. We spent a lot of time talking about this. But that has to be because then the experienced BCBAs have shifted over into something administrative and less clinical. It has to be because we assume the RBT is gonna become a B C B A. And what we're saying is that that's not It's not panning out like that. And in fact, it's leaving us devoid of experienced people in certain situations where we do need experienced leadership. And unfortunately we all know the story. You you get somebody that's newly minted, they've got the qualifications on paper, so now you're doing something that quite frankly you don't know how to do. Just kinda like us as business owners at the beginning. But we're getting better at it. And we're getting good advice. Thank you. speaker-1: Yeah, no, it's it's hard and I think that ⁓ I I'm happy to hear more people talking about speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. I I think that it's I mean, I get both sides of this and I I ⁓ it is difficult. It is difficult to run an ABA company and I I think it goes again, it goes back to those fundamental things that that a lot of these companies are just not doing. They don't understand ⁓ why they're doing this, their why, their vision, their values, and they don't have a good handle on the business side of things. ⁓ and and you need you need both of them ⁓ to be successful. speaker-3: Kind of like checks and balances. speaker-2: I I I got it I got a paraphrase piece here 'cause it it fits perfectly. But somewhere in that book you say the power of doing it right, not pretending, not copying, rooted, grounded, and clear. And I think that's very appropriate ⁓ statement here with what we're all talking about. And that's it's still very ambiguous. It's still a very grand statement to make, but it I think if you keep that clear and front and center, ⁓ with every decision you make, then you end up okay. I know we are so far. We feel very good about where we're at. speaker-0: And and you're gonna forget, you're going to go down the wrong ⁓ path at times. I think it's the sooner that you can you can step back and say, Why again, why am I doing this? Why did I do this thing? ⁓ the the better off you will be. And and maybe you can make that you can it it can prevent you from making that same mistake again. So speaker-2: Right on. speaker-1: Yeah, I think that's well s well said. I think that that's this is a a great place to kind of wrap things up. ⁓ but I did wanna to offer to to you guys, Dan and Mike, if there was any any last ⁓ things that you wanted to say or anything that we didn't touch on before we end today. speaker-3: ⁓ it's just always a pleasure. and I know you can hear, you know, April and Steve talk about their products on their own podcast, but coming from two individuals that wouldn't have the company ⁓ that we have, would have had a much more difficult experience, ⁓ we cannot speak highly enough about the business leaders course specifically. and April and Steve just in terms of consulting and answering questions and things like that. So really, really, really appreciate. And again, our our company, we are so fulfilled in that and we have an amazing Amazing company and we wouldn't have it without April and Steve. So if you're listening to this podcast, thinking about starting an ABA venture of your own, you will not spend a better I don't know what it is, like five hundred dollars on starting your own platform than you will on the business leaders course. Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ thank you so much for that. That means a lot coming from you guys. speaker-2: Thanks so much for for having us back on. We we really appreciate the time and the ability to discuss. I mean, this this time flew by, guys. I know. speaker-1: It always goes by so fast. speaker-2: This is crazy. But yeah, no, best of luck to you. ⁓ just shameless self promotion. If you're anywhere in Southern California or anywhere you think we might be able to help, Ascend Behavioral Solutions at AscendABA Therapy dot com. And then yes, please do join us, especially for the first part of this podcast on ABA on tap. And ⁓ anything we can ever do for you guys, you know where to find us. Thank you so much. We we really appreciate being on your podcast. speaker-3: So wonderful having other people out there fighting the good fight. speaker-0: Thank you. speaker-1: Yes, and same to you. If you need anything, we're here for you. speaker-2: We find you, you we do. speaker-1: That's great. And so to those of you listening, ⁓ I just wanted to remind you that we do have a free ABA business leader support group for those owners and decision makers within the ABA company. It's ⁓ completely free, no strings attached. It's on Discord platform. But that's we're trying to take those conversations, ⁓ offer a a safer alternative to having some of the conversations that we might not feel comfortable having on social media, kind of more in a supportive environment. And so ⁓ feel free the the ⁓ application or well the form is in the show notes and so that fill out that form and that will take you there. We have a monthly meeting ⁓ where we talk about a specific topic, but then we have multiple threads going just con nonstop throughout the month. And yeah, we're actually starting our book club. ⁓ not sure when by the time this airs, we probably would have already started our book club. So yeah, so check that out and ⁓ we'd love to see you over there. All right, thank you guys so much for your time, and thank you for your listeners for your time. And we'll see you next week. Thanks for joining us on ABA Business Leaders. speaker-3: Thank you. speaker-0: We provide mentorship, courses, handbooks, billing support, credentialing, HIPAA support, web design, and more. Everything you need to build an ethical and sustainable ABA practice. speaker-1: You can find all of our resources at threepiesquar.com. speaker-0: Don't forget to subscribe and share this podcast with other ABA business owners. speaker-1: We'll see you next time and remember you don't have to build your practice alone.