Latest / The R4R Podcast: Road to Zero / What if my Dad called Lifeline instead of me?

Transcript

What if my Dad called Lifeline instead of me? · The R4R Podcast: Road to Zero

• 0:00
  Carrie, I don't know how well you know after our story, but
• 0:03
  I'll for the purpose of the listeners and for the purpose of
• 0:07
  setting up the conversation, I'll, I'll tell you anyway, but
• 0:09
  thank you. 15 years ago, I got a missed call from my old man and
• 0:15
  I got a voicemail from him. And the voicemail said, hey,
• 0:17
  Matt, I just want to let you know that I love you.
• 0:22
  And I tried calling him back. I couldn't get through.
• 0:25
  Send him a message. And a couple of days later, I
• 0:27
  would find out that he took his life.
• 0:31
  And I don't think whether it was about this conversation that
• 0:34
  we're going to have today or. But it was the first time I
• 0:36
  really thought about it that I wish he didn't call me.
• 0:40
  I wish he called Lifeline because I mean, yeah, if
• 0:45
  somebody answered, it could have changed the trajectory of his
• 0:51
  life. Yeah, absolutely.
• 0:54
  Thank you for sharing that. Wow, that's very, very powerful
• 0:59
  and moving. And you, wow, I've got more
• 1:02
  questions for you I think then you have for me right now.
• 1:05
  But yeah, thank you for sharing that.
• 1:06
  I can't imagine. I mean, certainly no one really
• 1:10
  is immune when it comes to mental health and many of us
• 1:14
  have lost loved ones to suicide. Many more people attempt
• 1:18
  suicide. We know every year and it
• 1:21
  affects hundreds of people every time it happens, the grief and
• 1:25
  loss is accompanied by so much confusion and questioning and
• 1:30
  stigma. So that just compounds what you
• 1:33
  would have as a son already been trying to to grapple with.
• 1:36
  So I can't imagine the strength you hold right now.
• 1:39
  But also I guess the strength in telling that story.
• 1:42
  That's incredible because as someone who's gone through it,
• 1:47
  what you're choosing to do with your life is incredibly
• 1:50
  substantive and making a big difference.
• 1:54
  Wow. I.
• 1:55
  Appreciate it. That's why the doc got behind
• 2:00
  you mate. When you tell me you started
• 2:01
  telling me a story after we started getting to know each
• 2:04
  other. I was like shit spokes having a
• 2:06
  go, trying to make something really sad and that's why the
• 2:08
  doc got behind you mate was. Exactly that.
• 2:11
  Yeah, I appreciate it. But I, I, I want to, I want to
• 2:16
  focus on what the conversation he, he could have, had, would
• 2:20
  have been like. Because I think one thing we've
• 2:22
  learned from this podcast, you know, Lily, who was speaking
• 2:27
  about aiding disorder, she said she used Lifeline and, you know,
• 2:31
  it helped change the trajectory of her life.
• 2:37
  And I know that she got a message about her podcast saying
• 2:43
  thank you for talking about eating disorder.
• 2:44
  This is the first time I wanted to get better.
• 2:47
  And that's the type of effect this podcast can have.
• 2:49
  And I know that odds are there's somebody listening to this who
• 2:53
  maybe for whatever reason, doesn't think that they can call
• 2:58
  Lifeline. They don't see the option.
• 3:01
  I remember actually, I went to the Lifeline gala a couple of
• 3:03
  years ago and Josh illusions, he, he, he spoke and he said he
• 3:08
  was ready to take his life. But he got a text from his mate
• 3:11
  that just said, hey, mate, just checking in on you.
• 3:14
  I love you or something like that.
• 3:15
  And it just shook him out of that mindset just for a moment.
• 3:18
  And then he made the decision to call Lifeline.
• 3:20
  But people get the blinkers on and they can't go anywhere else.
• 3:24
  That's just the position they're in when they do go to Lifeline.
• 3:28
  And they should if they need. If they think about it, what are
• 3:31
  they met with when that after those rings?
• 3:34
  Yeah, someone answers. And what are they?
• 3:36
  What are they doing? You'll hear the words, hello,
• 3:39
  this is Lifeline. May we help you and thank you
• 3:44
  for having me on today because I think the important thing is
• 3:47
  addressing that concern that Lifeline is or isn't for them.
• 3:50
  So many people, I started on the phones a little under 2 decades
• 3:55
  ago, so many more people ring up and apologise and say am I
• 3:58
  holding up the line? Am I worth it?
• 4:01
  Like am I? Yeah.
• 4:02
  Yeah, I'm really sorry. You know, I shouldn't be
• 4:04
  calling. Lifeline is for everyone.
• 4:07
  It's for every single individual, any age, any gender,
• 4:11
  any time of day or night, any conceivable human crisis.
• 4:15
  So what you are met with is is a is a, is a warm and and caring
• 4:20
  and compassionate individual. They've got a highly clinical
• 4:24
  model. It is international best
• 4:27
  practise, but they in robot, in compassion and they will help
• 4:31
  you through. They will sit and listen and
• 4:34
  help you understand. They will connect and enable
• 4:37
  coping in a way that essentially allows you to to decide your
• 4:43
  next steps. The types of calls that come
• 4:46
  through, I've sort of over the years sort of categorised them
• 4:49
  into three main areas. Understanding.
• 4:51
  I've never had two calls that are the same.
• 4:53
  So it's quite hard to sort of generalise, but you've got your
• 4:57
  mental health or mental illness themed calls where individuals
• 5:02
  could be having a negative reaction to medications, they
• 5:05
  could be struggling with anxiety or depression, they could be
• 5:09
  coming to terms with the diagnosis and then you use very
• 5:13
  different skills in that call. You've got your crisis course,
• 5:16
  which is everything you see from financial distress to
• 5:20
  relationship breakdowns, to gambling or alcohol, substance
• 5:24
  abuse or misuse, isolation and bullying, domestic violence.
• 5:29
  And they you're sitting with individuals to ensure that they
• 5:32
  are first of all safe. And then they've got access to
• 5:36
  and the ability to do the work, to contact the right sort of
• 5:40
  help. So we can help anyone anywhere
• 5:43
  in Australia at any time within walking distance, a free bus
• 5:47
  ride or if they have paid transport or transport of their
• 5:51
  own, something they can get to at that hour to help them.
• 5:55
  And of course, we've got safety or imminent risk calls, which is
• 5:58
  where there's a real risk of loss of life.
• 6:00
  And that can be a child experiencing domestic violence,
• 6:04
  anyone in a domestic violence situation, obviously anyone
• 6:07
  having suicidal ideation, anyone at risk really.
• 6:10
  And that's where we work very closely with our emergency
• 6:12
  services and, and 000 and I think to talk about suicide and,
• 6:18
  and what you're referring to there, how an individual gets to
• 6:22
  that point. And we've had the privilege of,
• 6:24
  of meeting and working with hundreds of individuals who have
• 6:28
  called Lifeline, but also those who have attempted suicide and,
• 6:33
  and survived. And we've been able to learn
• 6:36
  from them and what tends to happen.
• 6:40
  And I know from being on the other side of the call, the
• 6:43
  person, when they call you, if they find the courage, they they
• 6:47
  find the courage, but they can't find a reason to live.
• 6:50
  They can only see reasons for dying.
• 6:52
  And when someone does pick up the phone to Lifeline and you
• 6:57
  are answering that call, it's, it's something as a crisis
• 7:00
  supporter, you are filled with hope because you know that there
• 7:03
  is a reason to live and that that reason is what caused them
• 7:07
  to pick up the phone in the 1st place.
• 7:08
  And sometimes that's all you've got to hold onto.
• 7:10
  They're trying. Yeah, they couldn't say it, but
• 7:13
  they could feel it. That's why they call it.
• 7:14
  And that's the the responders job is to try and what help them
• 7:19
  uncover that connect with that that purpose or.
• 7:22
  You grab onto that with both hands, even if you can't name
• 7:25
  it, and you try and breathe as much love into that as possible.
• 7:29
  How do you do that in the conversation?
• 7:32
  Like as a part of there's a lot of validation, you know, an
• 7:34
  individual and, and, and, and staying in, in, we talk about
• 7:38
  sitting in the mud. It's just allowing them to say
• 7:40
  the things they need to say. And it's a safe space.
• 7:44
  There's no judgement. Allowing them to talk about all
• 7:47
  of the reasons why they can't see a future.
• 7:50
  And for a lot of them, it's about having the pain, whether
• 7:52
  it's psychological or physical, having the pain end.
• 7:56
  And it's about letting them have that space to talk about it and
• 8:00
  validating that for them and bringing them around to the
• 8:03
  point where you can have a conversation around how you
• 8:07
  might be able to keep them safe. Sometimes just for a minute,
• 8:10
  sometimes just for an hour or two, sometimes just till the
• 8:13
  next day. And you're trying to enable
• 8:16
  connection. We try and contract them to
• 8:18
  safety. But of course, if there is, if
• 8:20
  there is a plan in place and there is an imminent risk to
• 8:23
  them, we will absolutely contact our emergency services and and
• 8:29
  we'll stay with them the whole time.
• 8:31
  We have a chain of command at Lifeline that allows the crisis
• 8:34
  supporter to stay with the caller and we are downloading
• 8:38
  and transferring information sometimes quite manually to
• 8:42
  emergency services to get them there.
• 8:44
  And sometimes if we can't extract an address or a
• 8:47
  location, we have ways of finding them.
• 8:52
  It sounds like half of the value.
• 8:54
  Well, not half, it's just a throwaway proportion, But a
• 8:57
  value they can get it from calling is just getting that
• 9:01
  noise outside of their head. And so they can hear it not
• 9:05
  rattling around and just, yeah, validate it.
• 9:10
  This is where I'm at. This is what I'm feeling.
• 9:12
  And then somebody else going that's OK.
• 9:16
  Absolutely. And the tough, the tough part is
• 9:19
  so often the crisis supporter doesn't know what happens at the
• 9:22
  end of the call. Sometimes you're there and I
• 9:24
  have been there when emergency services have intervened and
• 9:27
  they've taken over the phone and you know, right, you know that
• 9:30
  there's a very good chance. Sometimes you don't have that.
• 9:33
  And that's where the training comes in.
• 9:35
  So the individuals often, again, a question we have is around
• 9:38
  volunteering. I don't know if I can do it.
• 9:40
  I don't know if I can answer the phones.
• 9:41
  I don't know what I would do. The training is incredible.
• 9:44
  You go through extensive training.
• 9:46
  It takes a year to become accredited and you are ready to
• 9:49
  take your calls. You are ready to take those
• 9:52
  calls. You know about the support
• 9:54
  that's in place for you when you when you're on the phones.
• 9:57
  And so many of our crisis supporters report getting so
• 9:59
  much out of being there, just knowing they were there.
• 10:03
  It certainly gives you a lot more than it takes takes away.
• 10:06
  But yeah, I guess it's the magic of Lifeline.
• 10:08
  It's that network of of connection.
• 10:10
  But taking away like a must be like really hard thing to go
• 10:15
  through these conversations with people.
• 10:16
  What are some of the things you guys do for your volunteers to
• 10:20
  help them process? Like some pretty intense
• 10:22
  conversations. Yeah, absolutely.
• 10:24
  So again, it starts with the prevention and the training.
• 10:28
  I've said it three times today already.
• 10:29
  In fact, we will not harm someone to help someone.
• 10:33
  So our crisis support volunteers are the lifeblood of our
• 10:36
  organisation, as are the volunteers at the warehouse who
• 10:39
  help us with the funding you need to ensure that they're
• 10:42
  coming away better than than you find them at the start of their
• 10:45
  shift. So it's a, it's around the
• 10:46
  training. Then once they're accredited,
• 10:49
  once they're on the phones, they're flying solo.
• 10:51
  We have all of the professional development, all of the clinical
• 10:54
  supervision. They do need to sit through what
• 10:56
  we call group soups, where they sit in groups and they talk
• 10:58
  about the challenges that they're having.
• 11:00
  They learn from more senior mentors who have been on the
• 11:03
  phones for years. And we have our centre
• 11:05
  supervisors who are just there to make sure that they are well,
• 11:09
  we brief on before they start this shift.
• 11:11
  It's a, it's a quick conversation, but our centre
• 11:13
  supervisors can tell whether they should or shouldn't be
• 11:17
  completing a shift right then and there.
• 11:19
  They're checking in between difficult calls, They debrief
• 11:22
  after the call. And then if they've had a tough
• 11:24
  call on their shift and a tough call, they're all tough calls,
• 11:27
  but a particular one that's perhaps triggered them or
• 11:31
  they've spoken about afterwards, we follow up with them in the
• 11:34
  days following. The professional development
• 11:36
  just helps them stay across all of the skills to look after
• 11:39
  themselves, all of the self care practises we bring in
• 11:42
  organisations like yourself to, to talk about lived experience
• 11:47
  to get them more context and more hope.
• 11:50
  And so all of that sort of wraps around them to keep them safe.
• 11:53
  We. Were going to get there
• 11:56
  eventually, but it's great that you've brought it up.
• 11:59
  One of the other things from that lifelong gala that stuck
• 12:02
  out to me was the little video package that you did.
• 12:04
  I think it was a couple years ago, but the volunteers and
• 12:06
  they'll talk one of them spoke about how she got a call the
• 12:11
  person on the other side was on a train on their way to take
• 12:17
  their life and spoke to that caller on the train for a long
• 12:22
  time from memory. I can't put a figure on it.
• 12:25
  And then the phone call ended with the person saying thank you
• 12:28
  for listening and then nothing. You spoke about how sometimes
• 12:35
  you don't know what happens after the court.
• 12:37
  And that must be, I mean, you hope that one went well, but it
• 12:43
  must be such a, a weight to carry.
• 12:45
  You talk about being prepared, but your volunteers must be some
• 12:50
  pretty special people to like. You say they get stuff out of
• 12:53
  it, but that. Yes, and thank you for yes,
• 12:57
  thank you for allowing me to acknowledge them because it's
• 12:59
  there's no amount. They are absolute earth angels.
• 13:02
  They our volunteers are students, you know, at the ANU
• 13:08
  who are doing psychology. Perhaps they could be mums, dads
• 13:14
  doing a shift after a long day at work.
• 13:17
  They can be ex heads of army. The most incredible individuals
• 13:21
  walk into that phone room and do what they do and it is
• 13:25
  incredibly difficult. It's, it's really about
• 13:29
  understanding. I always say to my team, you
• 13:31
  know, we have quite a dark sense of humour.
• 13:33
  We, we sort of have to, we always go, we're not turning
• 13:35
  sausages on a Saturday. We, we know what we signed up
• 13:38
  for. We see, we see all the
• 13:42
  devastation, we see all the trauma and we see all the loss.
• 13:46
  We lose sleep. We are human beings ourselves.
• 13:48
  We walk around scared, spooked, sometimes traumatised for days.
• 13:53
  We ourselves will will attract a fair bit of abuse with anything
• 13:58
  that that might be. Mid call or something.
• 14:02
  Yeah, mid call sometimes throughout, you know the, the
• 14:06
  phones on our desks, you know, if Lifeline is, is showing up
• 14:09
  anywhere in particular. So it's, it's not, it's not
• 14:13
  easy, but we know what Lifeline's capable of and we
• 14:17
  know what it does. And so we know what it achieves.
• 14:20
  And that's what you hold on to. It's the wolf we feed is, is
• 14:23
  knowing that we're there, knowing that it does make a
• 14:26
  difference, knowing that we do save lives.
• 14:27
  We, we lose, you know, 1 Canberra in a week to suicide.
• 14:32
  We lose almost 9 Australians a day.
• 14:35
  But we know that at Lifeline we often put in place over 110
• 14:39
  safety contracts a day. What does that mean?
• 14:43
  A safety contract is essentially an intervention or it's it's
• 14:47
  basically stopping someone in their tracks and just helping
• 14:50
  them pause if suicide is a very real option for them or just
• 14:55
  something that they were acting on at that time.
• 14:57
  So. It'd be much more than 9 Aussies
• 14:58
  a day if I if I wasn't there be much.
• 15:01
  Absolutely, absolutely. And so you know, that being
• 15:05
  there and the fact that you were there, even though sometimes you
• 15:08
  don't know the outcome, you know, you you made a difference.
• 15:12
  Sometimes, you know, if I've walked away from the phones, you
• 15:17
  you just sometimes have to tell yourself at the very least, at
• 15:19
  least they weren't alone. Yeah, it's pretty tough.
• 15:23
  You got a bit of emotion coming through while you're.
• 15:25
  Saying this, I'll, I cannot imagine a world without lifeline
• 15:29
  in it. And it's, you know, yes, we, we,
• 15:34
  we have a work structure and we have salaries, but none of us do
• 15:41
  it for any other reason other than we want to ensure that
• 15:46
  everyone has the opportunity to live their best lives.
• 15:48
  And we want to ensure that we're doing everything to prevent what
• 15:53
  we believe to be completely preventable a moment in time,
• 15:59
  which is a thought of suicidal acting on that thought.
• 16:04
  On the Lifeline Gala, the video like Lifeline gala video, so you
• 16:08
  do it every year, do the video every year.
• 16:10
  Yes, we try and in a non confronting way.
• 16:14
  I always laugh. I'm great friends with Michelle
• 16:16
  from the RSPCAI, quite resent her.
• 16:19
  I said. I don't have cute puppies to
• 16:21
  just sort of hand around. We've got to try and get our
• 16:24
  message across and it's it's not a pretty message.
• 16:28
  It's not a, it's not a fun message.
• 16:29
  It's, it's at least we've been deeply affected.
• 16:33
  But yes, so every year we try and we've had speakers and
• 16:36
  sometimes that can get a little bit too difficult for the
• 16:41
  audience who are unprepared. So we do the video package to
• 16:45
  try and contain the message and make sure that we're keeping
• 16:48
  everyone safe. Because that video this year, it
• 16:50
  was, I think it said it was reenacting a call, someone, an
• 16:56
  actual lifelong call. And it was like 2:00 AM and this
• 17:01
  and the, the, the volunteer talked to, I think it was a
• 17:05
  widow who was just nothing to live for.
• 17:08
  But everything we're just saying basically came through in that.
• 17:10
  Yeah, in that call. And the old fellow.
• 17:13
  Yeah, just lost the will to live, but nothing to live for.
• 17:16
  But the, the volunteer did an amazing job.
• 17:19
  And the call went for like, I mean, the video and they went
• 17:21
  for 10 minutes, but I think it went for like 3.
• 17:23
  It was a long call. And then it finishes and it's
• 17:26
  like 4:00 AM and then within like 10 seconds the phone rings
• 17:30
  again. Yes.
• 17:31
  Like how that's the never ending, the never endingness of
• 17:36
  it. How does how do you work the
• 17:38
  team through that understanding that it's just one tough call
• 17:44
  after another? Does everyone accept it and they
• 17:45
  understand that it's just like, it's not like you just, you
• 17:48
  know, can turn the lights off and shut the door And it's like,
• 17:51
  like a, like the pub close it at midnight and you've got 11 hours
• 17:55
  till it needs to be open again. But like how to?
• 17:57
  I'm curious to know a bit more like how a lifeline manages that
• 18:01
  24/7 like demand for your service.
• 18:05
  Yeah, it's first of all that that video, yeah, it's
• 18:11
  incredibly impactful. It is a reenactment.
• 18:14
  It's. It's amazing.
• 18:15
  It's so well done. It's important to say that
• 18:19
  Carol, who was the character in that was ready to take another
• 18:21
  call. So often with a call of that
• 18:23
  nature, your, your centre supervisor is tapping you on the
• 18:27
  shoulder and either making you a cup of tea or pulling you aside
• 18:30
  for 5 minutes just to check. But so often, yes, because of
• 18:32
  the training, because of the, the mindset and we, we trialled
• 18:38
  actually during COVID, taking the call answer room, a call
• 18:41
  answer service to everyone's homes that they could work from
• 18:44
  home. And we stopped that after one
• 18:45
  week because we were just, we're not convinced of the safety and
• 18:49
  security. I know I've taken some tough
• 18:50
  calls at home and I still walk into those rooms today and feel
• 18:54
  that call. So when you walk into the
• 18:57
  centre, you sort of put that coat of armour on.
• 18:59
  We discover whatever we call it, it's, you know, something that
• 19:02
  will deflect and you know what you're there to do.
• 19:05
  You make sure you put all your protections in place, you do the
• 19:07
  right thing by yourself and make sure you're ready to take the
• 19:09
  call. And yes, many of our volunteers
• 19:12
  can hang up and go from one call to the next.
• 19:16
  The shifts are structured in such a way that you can do a 2-3
• 19:20
  or four hour shift. It is a requirement that you do
• 19:24
  96 hours on the phones per year. But that's not so much.
• 19:28
  It's like anyone. I'm a mom.
• 19:30
  I've taken, I took three months out of the workplace when I had
• 19:33
  my my bubs confidence. You lose confidence very
• 19:37
  quickly. So keeping up your fortnightly
• 19:39
  shifts just keeps you really confident you're in it.
• 19:42
  So there's a number of strategies and a number of
• 19:44
  structural requirements that that allow those individuals to
• 19:48
  to operate the way as you're saying, so incredibly to operate
• 19:52
  that way. And then so like on a night
• 19:54
  shift, how many just say lifelong Canberra?
• 19:56
  Just people that don't know, like obviously you're able to
• 19:59
  share like what's the peak time of the week for calls?
• 20:02
  How many? Like yeah, when do you have the
• 20:05
  most volleys on? It's obviously 24/7.
• 20:07
  Can you just share a bit of the like logistics behind the
• 20:10
  scenes? Yeah, it's interesting, you
• 20:12
  know, the inner workings. Sundays are very busy and you
• 20:17
  know, you can again, No2 calls being the same.
• 20:20
  You don't ever want to make assumptions.
• 20:21
  We have captured unidentifiable data to help us with our
• 20:26
  improvements. So we do know the number 1234
• 20:29
  and five, you know, reasons that people call.
• 20:32
  But while they call on certain days, you sort of go right, a
• 20:35
  Sunday, That's because Mondays return to work.
• 20:38
  So if they've had a break from, you know, a bullying,
• 20:41
  harassment, burnout situation over the course of the weekend,
• 20:44
  they've got to face it on the Monday.
• 20:46
  So Mondays can often be, it can be family days.
• 20:48
  So a lot of elderly people feeling isolated, their families
• 20:51
  are off doing other things. They, they're on their own.
• 20:55
  So Sundays are busy. And of course, every every day
• 21:00
  after work until 6:00 AM overnight is, is the, the
• 21:05
  busiest, it's the darkest yeah time of the day.
• 21:09
  And, and for some people, many people, they're at work all day
• 21:13
  after work, alcohol, other people interactions come into
• 21:16
  place a stressful day. So that that can all play out
• 21:22
  during Yeah, yeah in the evening.
• 21:26
  So Sunday night, afternoon, evening usually picked up and
• 21:29
  then what about zooming out over the course of a year?
• 21:31
  So that's like in a weekly cycle, but what is there any
• 21:34
  interest that just trends you guys?
• 21:36
  I hate saying this because it's my happiest time of the year.
• 21:39
  It always was. And now I have a very real
• 21:41
  appreciation for the fact that for many more people, Christmas
• 21:46
  and the holiday season is the toughest time.
• 21:50
  And I think that's for many reasons.
• 21:53
  And, and you can probably relate to this.
• 21:55
  It's when you start to reflect and you start to imagine, or
• 21:59
  you're forced to imagine a world without people or you've lost
• 22:02
  people or you're struggling with relationships or financially.
• 22:05
  It's the time to be merry. It's in your face everywhere you
• 22:08
  go. I, I walked here through the
• 22:09
  shopping centre because we're now based at the centre and the,
• 22:13
  the carols are up and the trees are out and, and I love it.
• 22:16
  But at the same time I'm reminded that for so many more
• 22:19
  people, it's a tough time. They feel more isolated because
• 22:23
  it's stress, family or visiting, you know, not everyone has the
• 22:26
  same experience with, with friends or family.
• 22:29
  So over the summer period here in Australia we see the highest
• 22:32
  rate of suicide and. It slows down, doesn't it?
• 22:36
  It's like things catch up with you when things slow down, don't
• 22:41
  they? So Christmas slows down for
• 22:43
  people that don't have distraction of work, they don't
• 22:46
  have distraction, all their friends might be somewhere else
• 22:50
  and they're just by themselves. So it's summer, although it sort
• 22:54
  of would have been winter when everything is dark and cold in
• 22:56
  the UK. You hear about those first few
• 22:58
  Sundays of the new year that people are not wanting to return
• 23:03
  to work. But I thought a lot of it was
• 23:04
  maybe the dark and the cold and they're not out being active.
• 23:06
  But you think it's because there's that time of year where
• 23:10
  you reflect and if you've lost those connections, that's when I
• 23:13
  guess it really hits home because you're not in the
• 23:15
  busyness of the year. Is that what you're sort of?
• 23:18
  That's, you know, that the, the number, the number one reason
• 23:22
  people call Lifeline is due to relationship breakdown,
• 23:25
  isolation, financial distress. I mean, think about it, that's
• 23:27
  Christmas. Everyone's spending, everyone's
• 23:29
  on holidays. It's an expensive time of the
• 23:31
  year. It's, it's in your face that it
• 23:33
  should be the happiest time of the year and it's joyful and
• 23:35
  it's family and it's connection for those people that don't have
• 23:38
  that. Yeah, it it's, it's amplified.
• 23:42
  Yeah, that's fascinating because we're last year, like running
• 23:45
  versus in December is pretty busy.
• 23:47
  Like it was our biggest runs and went in May is in December and
• 23:50
  then the dock closes for a week or two.
• 23:52
  And we were like, oh, we're just we'll stop the runs over that
• 23:55
  break. But then Ellie, love you Ellie.
• 23:58
  She said no, no, I'll keep. She said I'll keep running them
• 24:00
  like, all right. And the numbers were like much
• 24:04
  smaller, but we've had a lot of storage from those runs.
• 24:07
  The the Christmas Day one, the nearest day one of people who
• 24:10
  had much meant to them because of exactly what you're saying.
• 24:14
  They're probably the been the most impactful runs that helped
• 24:17
  level the most. But they were the smallest.
• 24:18
  Yeah. Just because.
• 24:19
  Yeah. Of everything.
• 24:20
  Yeah. You're saying yeah, you don't
• 24:21
  really hitting home, I guess. Yeah.
• 24:23
  For us, why we should keep putting those on over the
• 24:25
  holidays. Yeah, you don't realise.
• 24:28
  I didn't realise. No, I was naively our, our
• 24:32
  warehouse where we sought books for the book fairs that's open
• 24:35
  seven days a week, 365 days of the year too.
• 24:39
  And I thought let's shut down over Christmas.
• 24:43
  And I got so much feedback from volunteers who were so, you
• 24:49
  know, unsettled by that and unhappy about it.
• 24:52
  And it was only just scratching the surface and realising it's
• 24:56
  so many of our volunteers, so many of them at the warehouse
• 24:58
  are retired, their families don't live in Canberra or their
• 25:00
  families leave Canberra for Christmas.
• 25:02
  It's their community, it's their family.
• 25:04
  So now we put on Christmas lunch.
• 25:06
  So it's the opposite, in fact. So it's just learning.
• 25:11
  Yeah, yeah, they're a wonderful, you know, it's, it's a family.
• 25:14
  It is. But that realisation of it's not
• 25:17
  what necessarily you think it is.
• 25:20
  And I guess that's where stigma comes from, you know?
• 25:23
  I want to go back to the the calls just quickly because I had
• 25:27
  a thought that came into my head.
• 25:28
  I don't know if you've ever been around when a paramedic comes
• 25:30
  in. And then sometimes they walk too
• 25:32
  slowly, like hurry up. They're always very calm.
• 25:35
  It's like they've been through the training.
• 25:36
  They know what to do, that they they're there.
• 25:40
  Like it almost instils you with a sense of confidence that
• 25:42
  everything's going to be OK. And then the other, the other
• 25:45
  thing is with the callers. So I imagine that's the same
• 25:49
  with the the people who answer. The yeah, across the supporters,
• 25:54
  yeah. Across the supporters.
• 25:55
  But then there's also this added layer of its volunteer They're
• 26:01
  there because it means something to them.
• 26:04
  And I reckon, one, they're prepared so they know what to
• 26:08
  say, but two, I reckon in their voice you can probably hear that
• 26:12
  even though they don't know the person on the other side of the
• 26:14
  call, they care. They care about that person.
• 26:18
  Otherwise, why would you do it? Absolutely.
• 26:20
  I, I stand in the crisis support room when I'm having what I
• 26:26
  think is a tough day and I talk about it.
• 26:30
  I talk about the fact that you can hear one side of a
• 26:32
  conversation that is changing someone's life out there
• 26:36
  forever. There's a person that I know in
• 26:39
  our phone room talking to someone they'll never meet.
• 26:42
  It's just incredible to think. And it is, it's because they
• 26:45
  care. It's because humanity exists.
• 26:47
  It's, it's, it is alive and well.
• 26:49
  I know there are signs up on every counter saying you know,
• 26:52
  abuse will not be tolerated. You walk into Big W and they
• 26:54
  interrupt your favourite 80s song to say, you know you'll be
• 26:57
  arrested if you abuse someone. But at the end of the day, as
• 27:02
  much as we see the trauma and the pain and the loss, we see,
• 27:06
  we see that. We see that humanity, we see
• 27:08
  that strength and that resilience and that
• 27:10
  determination because they can. People helping someone else.
• 27:15
  It's, it's just, yeah, it's a beautiful, beautiful
• 27:18
  organisation. Can you care too much like?
• 27:24
  That's a good question. I'll put that on you guys.
• 27:27
  Well, well, boundaries like, I mean, I guess that's you, you
• 27:29
  obviously must attract the most caring people that want to make
• 27:32
  a difference. But I think we've had a
• 27:34
  conversation before and you talk about some triangle about.
• 27:38
  A Coppins drama triangle. Yes.
• 27:40
  Like talk, talk. Yeah.
• 27:42
  Can you explain that? I found that fascinating.
• 27:44
  All right, that's a, that's a slightly different conversation
• 27:46
  around workplace culture and in in this sector, how you can
• 27:52
  essentially see when you've got so much diversity coming in and
• 27:56
  you've got volunteers and paid staff and different levels of
• 27:59
  capability, commitment, compatibility and capacity
• 28:02
  coming in, you see dynamics play out and where it's
• 28:06
  dysfunctional. I spent a lot of time because,
• 28:09
  you know, coming into Lifeline as a volunteer and then on the
• 28:12
  board for a brief stint, I had this perception from the outside
• 28:16
  of what Lifeline would be on the inside.
• 28:18
  And it wasn't, it wasn't quite that.
• 28:19
  It was individuals who are really so focused on on
• 28:24
  everything outside of the organisation that they they had
• 28:27
  lost sight of themselves and one another.
• 28:30
  And that was playing out in in a way that wasn't, I guess,
• 28:34
  assisting individuals to live their best lives as Lifeline
• 28:37
  staffers. So we looked around for theories
• 28:40
  and Koppen's drama Triangle was one of them in that you can
• 28:44
  attract in the sector rescuers and that's, you know, that's
• 28:49
  different to boundary setting. Boundary setting is a very, very
• 28:52
  healthy and well evidence based approach to to going into those
• 28:58
  situations like a paramedic would.
• 29:00
  You need to have your boundaries, your disco ball or
• 29:02
  whatever you call it, your suit of armour.
• 29:05
  But being able to identify in workplace situations where there
• 29:10
  is dysfunction, whether you've got the carpets triangle playing
• 29:13
  out is important. You can often find people will
• 29:15
  come to your organisation. You might find volunteers coming
• 29:17
  to you because they want to prevent someone else from going.
• 29:19
  Through can you just explain sort of the the the three points
• 29:22
  that yes, so you've just training that doesn't know.
• 29:27
  You've got your rescuers, you've got your victims and you've got
• 29:30
  your perpetrators. And quite often when people have
• 29:34
  gone through something bad, they don't want anyone else to go
• 29:37
  through it again. So they they take on a rescuer
• 29:39
  role. They will go into positions and
• 29:41
  organisations and environments where they can rescue.
• 29:44
  And that's not something that's functional for them or the
• 29:48
  organisation or the individual they're helping, because
• 29:51
  rescuers essentially are trying to prevent something from
• 29:54
  happening to someone else, but they haven't dealt with their
• 29:56
  own pain necessarily or haven't done the work in terms of being
• 30:00
  able to heal. And in organisations as well,
• 30:04
  sometimes victims come in, they've, they've, they're going
• 30:07
  through that or they've been through that and they think the
• 30:09
  organisation or individuals in there can help them.
• 30:12
  And all of these things, perpetrators as well.
• 30:15
  And you often hear about people of a certain, you know, if
• 30:18
  they're, if they're criminal or or non criminal, if they've got
• 30:21
  character flaws or, or their value sets down a line, they can
• 30:25
  come in and they can start to cause problems within
• 30:27
  organisations depending on the environment that they're in.
• 30:30
  So really it's about watching for that in your organisation,
• 30:33
  if you're managing volunteers and if you're managing team
• 30:35
  members is making sure that individuals are compatible with
• 30:38
  one another, that you haven't got victims, perpetrators or
• 30:41
  rescuers. According to the Karpen's drama
• 30:43
  triangle. Very confronting words to use,
• 30:46
  very confronting words to use. But those are Karpen's words.
• 30:48
  And it does actually help you when you're leading diverse
• 30:52
  teams in a very complex and emotion fueled environment.
• 30:56
  It helps you have tough conversations because you can
• 30:58
  see what's happening, you can see what's playing out.
• 31:00
  I guess why I brought that up because you mentioned it a while
• 31:02
  back and then I like reflected and I thought and I guess why I
• 31:06
  brought about caring too much as I feel like I'd maybe fall into
• 31:09
  the rescuer role a little bit after I've been through a bad
• 31:11
  way. I wanted to try and help prevent
• 31:13
  people from doing it, but I didn't set enough boundaries and
• 31:17
  I gave more at times given more than I had.
• 31:21
  And that I guess that's why I asked that question.
• 31:23
  Find it fascinating. Just yeah.
• 31:26
  And so in your, in your situation, so there, there you
• 31:28
  go. So again, I've gone and looked
• 31:29
  at the, the negative output or the negative outcomes for the
• 31:33
  for the team when a rescue, a perpetrator or victim comes in.
• 31:38
  But for those actual individuals, it's yeah, it's
• 31:40
  burnout. That's the result.
• 31:42
  It's, it's, it's not being able to sleep at night.
• 31:45
  It's not being able to rest at the same time as being hyper
• 31:48
  vigilant. So when you've got those two
• 31:50
  things combined, because you're so motivated by your experience
• 31:53
  and you haven't got the the boundaries in place or the self,
• 31:58
  I call it, it's not self awareness, it's self compassion.
• 32:02
  You're not valuing yourself more than you're valuing what it is
• 32:04
  you're trying to do and at your own expense.
• 32:07
  So that's where burnout can happen because you become hyper
• 32:11
  vigilant, you start to run on fumes.
• 32:13
  And we were talking about this earlier before the podcast in
• 32:17
  terms of that can occur in so many different scenarios where,
• 32:21
  you know, I'm in a situation at the moment where I have such a
• 32:24
  high level of responsibility for a situation, but very little
• 32:26
  control over it. And that's something that a lot
• 32:30
  of first responders find themselves facing as well.
• 32:34
  And that's where stress occurs. That's where injury occurs, and
• 32:39
  so being able to be aware of and name what's happening for you
• 32:42
  right now, and that's where Cartman's comes in.
• 32:45
  It's being able to say things in ways that people get that, that
• 32:48
  that resonates with me. That's what I'm going through.
• 32:50
  And there's a whole evidence base around it.
• 32:52
  The beautiful thing I always say is that it's very unlikely that
• 32:56
  we're going to go through something that has not been
• 32:59
  experienced before. And that doesn't make it a good
• 33:02
  thing. It just means that those that
• 33:04
  have gone through it before have survived it.
• 33:08
  Are Rd maps for you. So there are a number of people
• 33:11
  and for me detecting which one can help me, it's about aligning
• 33:14
  with their values. Someone that values align with
• 33:17
  mine and have gone through it before I go, well, I'm not going
• 33:20
  to push you this on my own. I'm just going to ask for help.
• 33:23
  So I think that's why, you know, we, we talk a lot about what you
• 33:28
  guys are doing at at running for resilience.
• 33:30
  And you want to protect that because you'll go ahead and do
• 33:33
  everything that you're great AT. And we're talking, I'm in the
• 33:36
  governance cycle now, which is, you know, I know, Ben, we've
• 33:38
  spoken about that as well as all the governance stuff.
• 33:41
  It's like it's the boring stuff. But it, you know, safety first,
• 33:44
  then you can have fun. So yeah, it's just about trying
• 33:48
  to make sense of a very complex, I guess a complex environment.
• 33:53
  I'm just yeah, we probably don't know.
• 33:55
  We didn't even introduce Carrie saying have laughed in the
• 33:57
  title. It's in the title, but it was
• 33:59
  one of our probably our first advisor like advisor to ask for
• 34:02
  us. So we just didn't meant we
• 34:04
  should probably should mention that, but.
• 34:08
  Only if we can say congratulations for your
• 34:10
  nomination. No, cut that out though, man,
• 34:12
  Cut that. But with that triangle, I just
• 34:14
  find it fascinating. And I like like if you're
• 34:17
  people, anyone listening and this is sort of like just the
• 34:20
  light bulbs going off and you're sort of catching yourself in
• 34:23
  that rescue a wall role. Like if there's a triangle is it
• 34:26
  is the idea to try you want to be in the middle and not in
• 34:29
  either role and that you're just self sufficient and that you're
• 34:31
  not a perpetrator, you're not a victim and you're not out trying
• 34:34
  to solve everyone else's problems.
• 34:36
  Is that kind of the the exit out of that triangle?
• 34:40
  It's not the Eric Cartman triangle, is it?
• 34:42
  Is it a Cartman? Cartman Triangle, you don't want
• 34:47
  any part of it really. And they use the word
• 34:49
  perpetrator, but it's really, you know, sometimes a rescuer
• 34:53
  can come in to an organisation and there isn't a victim to
• 34:56
  save. So they, they can't, they can't
• 34:58
  create that healing so that to create a victim, they become the
• 35:01
  perpetrator. And it doesn't mean, you know,
• 35:03
  elite, you know, in a technical or criminal sense, it just means
• 35:06
  they start to, they start to create victims unintentionally
• 35:10
  or intentionally. It's something that can happen
• 35:12
  quite subconsciously, as you say, until you name it, it sits
• 35:15
  in a subconscious. So people don't even realise
• 35:17
  that's what they're doing. They're very, very helpful, but
• 35:19
  to their own detriment. So they become the victim.
• 35:23
  So it's it's quite interesting how that that can play out.
• 35:25
  But you don't want a part of that drama.
• 35:27
  It's called the drama triangle. And anyone that knows me, I
• 35:31
  avoid drama. So that's why I know that that
• 35:34
  that triangle so well. I there's something coming to my
• 35:37
  head about this, but there's a few things that come to head.
• 35:40
  But on the triangle I similar to you, Benny, I probably dived
• 35:46
  into Afra before I had healed is the right word, but it became
• 35:54
  part of my healing mechanism. I would say that I've I'm on top
• 36:00
  of it now. I would comfortably say that,
• 36:03
  but I I'm not so sure I would be on top of it without rescuing.
• 36:10
  Does that make sense? I don't think in terms of the
• 36:13
  drama triangle you are rescuing, right?
• 36:15
  Yeah. So what's, what's the new one?
• 36:17
  Because. It's a complex.
• 36:19
  So it's yeah, it's more it's more sort of scratching an itch
• 36:22
  territory than actually genuinely being in touch with,
• 36:27
  being self compassionate, being self aware and therefore
• 36:31
  exercising self care and then going on.
• 36:33
  And yeah, you haven't lost yourself in in the process.
• 36:38
  You've poured your heart and soul into it, no doubt, and
• 36:42
  you've achieved great things. And that's that's fueled, I
• 36:45
  think. And as you say, it's, it's
• 36:48
  helped you, as you say, you've healed and that's always think
• 36:52
  it's you were forced to reimagine your future.
• 36:55
  And so it's helped you do that and you've done something so
• 36:59
  positive with it and. And I probably got over 50%
• 37:03
  healed before I did it, so then it may be exaggerated the
• 37:08
  process. Yeah, it's been part of my
• 37:09
  healing, mate. Yeah, I think it's been my.
• 37:11
  Journey out of sport, huge part of my healing.
• 37:14
  I need to be part of a lot of people's.
• 37:16
  I mean, you would say it, there was a, there was a sign that
• 37:20
  stuck with me. When you find your weakness, you
• 37:22
  find your purpose. And I think, and maybe weakness
• 37:27
  is the wrong word, but you would say it in your volunteers.
• 37:31
  They would, they would have some sort of connection to, you know,
• 37:36
  we say mental health with Lifeline, but obviously any of
• 37:38
  the things that people call up for and they know the value it
• 37:42
  gives, but it also helps build that armour, doesn't it?
• 37:46
  The experience of the cause helps them to understand all the
• 37:52
  suffering there is, but also all the strength there is to
• 37:56
  overcome that suffering. Not only to help but also the
• 38:00
  people on the other side of the call that are, they're making
• 38:04
  the last ditch effort to save themselves.
• 38:06
  And that takes a lot of strength.
• 38:09
  Encourage. Encourage.
• 38:11
  It's hard not to want to be a part of that, even if it's tough
• 38:14
  is to see that in in so many different shapes and forms and
• 38:19
  so many different stories. So that's where that if you're
• 38:24
  looking at it as a transaction on the balance sheet, that's
• 38:26
  where you know what it what it does, what it does call or pull
• 38:32
  on you for it certainly gives back because.
• 38:34
  There's always a cost, but if there's a yeah, what's the
• 38:37
  saying if you if a person who has any, who has AY, can find
• 38:42
  anyhow? Yeah.
• 38:43
  Oh, yeah. That's perfect.
• 38:45
  I love that. Yeah.
• 38:46
  Can I steal that? Yeah, it's not mine.
• 38:48
  We're going to borrow the we're not going to what?
• 38:50
  Is it not harm A volley to help someone else?
• 38:52
  Don't harm someone to help someone.
• 38:53
  Yeah, you can have that one. Yeah, but Carbon's drama
• 38:55
  triangle, just for the record. Not mine.
• 38:57
  Just yeah, something. Like that, it's not the carries
• 38:59
  drama trial. No, I'm.
• 39:02
  Clear that up. You mentioned before stigma, and
• 39:07
  I know that Lifeline spends a lot of time or spends a lot of
• 39:11
  effort trying to change the conversation around mental
• 39:14
  health. Yeah.
• 39:19
  Yeah, that's that is actually a very good question.
• 39:24
  I think stigma is one of the biggest barriers to help seeking
• 39:28
  behaviour. And we don't just talk about
• 39:32
  stigma, which is derived from a Greek word around judgement.
• 39:38
  It's self stigma, the stigma we put on ourselves.
• 39:41
  So there's, there's two, there's two walls to climb there before
• 39:45
  and having this conversation with you guys and being out in
• 39:51
  the community, people can see that we're humans ourselves.
• 39:54
  So that removes 1 barrier. They go, right, I'm going to
• 39:56
  pick up the phone that is likely to be a dag similar to carry on
• 40:00
  the phones. And they, you know, they'll have
• 40:02
  a chat. It's OK, I can call that's
• 40:05
  perfect. But what what also blocks them
• 40:08
  from from ringing is that sense that their problem isn't bad
• 40:11
  enough or that worse, they're not worth it.
• 40:14
  Their life isn't valuable enough.
• 40:16
  They are not they are not seeing in themselves what other people
• 40:22
  see in them. And that's what we've got to
• 40:25
  start changing the conversation on.
• 40:26
  So during COVID, we were talking about self care, self care and
• 40:30
  everyday, you know, masks on my team in the room.
• 40:33
  I'd say, guys, remember yourself, Kay, just thinking,
• 40:35
  not a throwaway comment, but just assuming that we're all
• 40:38
  experts in it. And one of my team members
• 40:40
  pulled her mask down and just said, well, what the hell is
• 40:42
  self care to you? What are you doing?
• 40:44
  Because right now I, I don't feel like I want to stay in my
• 40:48
  skin and thought about it. And I thought, gosh, like for me
• 40:53
  it's discipline and that's boring because you talk about
• 40:57
  spa days and you know, none of the things we couldn't do
• 41:00
  anything other than fight over toilet paper at that time.
• 41:02
  So unless that was something you were really into, there wasn't
• 41:05
  really much you could do to look after yourself.
• 41:07
  And so I thought about it long and hard.
• 41:10
  And we, we met with the training team and we said, right, guys, I
• 41:13
  think the problem here is it's not about self care.
• 41:16
  People aren't valuing themselves enough to even think about what
• 41:19
  it looks like for them. And that's when we started to
• 41:22
  run self compassion courses, which was around, as I mentioned
• 41:25
  earlier, the wolf you feed and about having self compassion,
• 41:28
  self talk and what we tell ourselves and that we're, that
• 41:31
  we're worth it and, and how important it is to have that
• 41:34
  conversation with yourself first.
• 41:36
  That's what helps break stigma. We, we offer those courses
• 41:40
  through all of our media partners and we booked out eight
• 41:43
  weeks, one course a day. We booked out within 24 to 48
• 41:47
  hours. Thousands of people came through
• 41:50
  a 2 hour course that we created just to allow them the space to
• 41:53
  talk about having compassion for themselves.
• 41:56
  So the conversation, it's actually, it's actually a pillar
• 42:00
  in our strategic plan. We've got 4 pillars and changing
• 42:03
  the conversation is one of them. That's how strongly the
• 42:06
  organisation believes in having that conversation and breaking
• 42:09
  down stigma. Why?
• 42:14
  Why do you think we talk to ourselves in a way that we would
• 42:19
  never talk to other people? Why is that?
• 42:22
  Yeah, interesting. I'm not sure.
• 42:27
  I'm not sure. I know that we, you know that
• 42:29
  the words we speak out of our mouths, it's like 1/3 or 1/4.
• 42:32
  I don't know what the status, don't quote me if someone can
• 42:35
  put it in the comments, but it's one of those things where you
• 42:38
  talk to yourself. The words we say, thousands more
• 42:41
  words internally that we say than what we say outside.
• 42:43
  And if we don't focus on making them positive, if we are so
• 42:47
  critical, I think there's an element of humility.
• 42:50
  There might be conditioning in there.
• 42:52
  I think society or culturally, it's for some people, they don't
• 42:56
  have it. And you see, you know, there's
• 42:58
  this sort of it's not arrogance, it's just a sense of self love
• 43:03
  and unconditional love for themselves.
• 43:05
  That is just something you want everyone to have because it does
• 43:09
  get tough outside. So you need to make sure you are
• 43:12
  you're good with yourself. And the first thing I say to
• 43:15
  friends and because I'm very conscious, people say, don't
• 43:18
  laugh on me. I won't, I won't even think
• 43:21
  about the model. But I have been saying something
• 43:24
  a lot lately. And I think it's because of of
• 43:26
  burnout. It's because people are feeling
• 43:28
  stretched and things are happening to people that are
• 43:31
  outside of their control. I say to them, what matters is
• 43:36
  that you know what you think about it first and you know how
• 43:40
  you feel about it first because how you feel about that
• 43:43
  situation is what matters first. If you've been diagnosed with
• 43:48
  something or you've come across something, how do you feel about
• 43:52
  it first in terms of your value set, are you OK with it?
• 43:55
  You need to do the work to get to be OK with it, and then you
• 43:58
  can go out and have conversations with other people.
• 44:00
  But if you don't do that first, you will take on board
• 44:04
  everyone's opinions and that can feel like judgement because it's
• 44:08
  not in line with how you feel and it matters just sort of
• 44:10
  adding it to your formula to decide how you feel about
• 44:13
  yourself. So I think it starts with those
• 44:15
  very simple practises of just how you talk to yourself and
• 44:20
  what you let in and the conversations you have need to
• 44:23
  be with trusted people, People you would go to for advice or
• 44:27
  standing at the door to the book fair.
• 44:29
  I love standing at the door every day when we open and on
• 44:33
  day one we have always around 2000 people in the queue.
• 44:37
  So I say good morning, welcome back, lovely to see you, thank
• 44:40
  you for waiting. You say it hundreds of times and
• 44:44
  everyone's smiling at you. You've got two.
• 44:47
  Well, if they're solicitous, 2000 people, you've got 1999
• 44:50
  people smiling back and greeting you and so happy to be there
• 44:53
  because it's the Lifeline Book Fair and everyone loves the book
• 44:55
  fair. And this year one lady came
• 44:58
  through and she's holding up her, her gold coin for donation
• 45:00
  to come in. And she said to me, this is
• 45:03
  probably going towards your salary, which is excessive by
• 45:06
  the way. And then she she tried to give
• 45:09
  it to me. Thank you.
• 45:10
  Give it to. Me, and you know what was the
• 45:14
  one comment I took on out of 2000?
• 45:16
  It took me about 5 minutes to really work on shaking off that
• 45:20
  so I could smile at everyone else coming to the door.
• 45:21
  But man, it hurt. And, you know, there's someone
• 45:26
  myself with all the training and I've had a lot worse things said
• 45:29
  to me in my time. But we're human.
• 45:31
  So it's like, that's that's the word that went in.
• 45:33
  It took me a while to shake it. So it's, it's just, I think it's
• 45:37
  just sharing those stories where you realise, gosh, man, we're
• 45:39
  just, we're human. And we.
• 45:41
  Yeah. And and so you've got to have a
• 45:43
  healthy reaction to bad things and always say that to people
• 45:46
  when they're upset. It's a healthy reaction.
• 45:48
  You're feeling like right now, but that's a healthy reaction.
• 45:52
  So it's just about what we do next.
• 45:53
  Yeah, I think yeah, yeah. Or interpretating her actions a
• 45:57
  reflection of her. Of her.
• 45:58
  Yes, she's it's not a reflection of you, it's her.
• 46:01
  Obviously bit bitter and twisted about how her life's panned out.
• 46:05
  Yeah, I rang my mum straight away.
• 46:06
  Yeah, felt like ringing my mum. It's like connecting something
• 46:10
  you said before about control and responsibility and also self
• 46:15
  care and, and you know, one thing that we can always have
• 46:19
  control over to an extent is our thoughts.
• 46:23
  And then just another layer of that is our actions.
• 46:26
  And one quote that's always stuck with me is be like the
• 46:29
  Cliff on which the waves continuously crash.
• 46:32
  And so no matter what the waves do, the Cliff just stays there.
• 46:36
  And it is constant. And I think when you talk about
• 46:39
  discipline, it's what, what are the constants in your life?
• 46:43
  What are, what are your, what can you keep the same regardless
• 46:46
  of anything that happens and that and that you can only kind
• 46:49
  of learn. I mean, when we, when our twin
• 46:52
  girls were born, that taught me very fast that you don't have
• 46:55
  control over things. And what can you control that
• 46:59
  What can you control is what you do and how much energy you have
• 47:02
  to apart from them waking you up.
• 47:05
  But though it's important, OK, look after yourself first.
• 47:07
  So if I, if I eat well, if I journal, if I exercise, I'm
• 47:12
  pretty good and I can handle most things.
• 47:14
  And if my home life is good, jeez, I I can almost handle it.
• 47:18
  Like very hard to get flustered because if I, if I'm looking
• 47:24
  after myself and my home life is good, Gee whiz.
• 47:28
  Yeah, the control responsibility thing can go out of whack and it
• 47:32
  doesn't bother me. But it's so important because if
• 47:34
  those things were out of whack, then it would just be such a
• 47:37
  compounding, Yeah, it would just get out of like it would just
• 47:41
  get out of control. Sort of like an open wound
• 47:43
  walking around when your your safety Nets not intact and
• 47:47
  that's a risky place to be and realising that's when it's time
• 47:49
  to slow down. Quite often we speed up to try
• 47:52
  and find a solution quicker. And when a situation is out of
• 47:56
  your control and, and people around you have a different
• 47:59
  agenda or different focuses or different priorities and you
• 48:03
  might be the victim of of those decisions that are being made or
• 48:06
  you may not have control over what happens next year.
• 48:08
  It's bring it closer. It's decide on the next 15
• 48:10
  minutes. You don't have to decide what
• 48:12
  you're going to do in five years time or what renovations.
• 48:14
  It's just about right. What am I going to do in the
• 48:16
  next five, 1015 minutes? And another thing I always say
• 48:19
  to people that you can control is your behaviour.
• 48:23
  You've just discussed, you know, thoughts draught feelings,
• 48:27
  feelings draught behaviour. But behaviour is a choice.
• 48:30
  So I always say your thoughts and feelings are valid.
• 48:32
  They're always valid. Whatever you think or feel about
• 48:34
  something is valid. It's, you know, that's your
• 48:37
  thought and your feeling, but how you choose to enact that and
• 48:41
  your behaviour is a choice. So my children have heard it
• 48:44
  1000 times, are sick of me saying it, but I'm you can be
• 48:47
  hurt and upset and it can be genuinely a healthy reaction,
• 48:50
  but you can still choose a different behaviour.
• 48:53
  You can still choose kindness. Strengthen that.
• 48:56
  Yeah, yeah. So it's just, yeah, again,
• 48:58
  controlling what you can control.
• 49:02
  I want to talk about is my opinion, I think it's probably
• 49:07
  shared widely that if Canberra is going to be suicide free,
• 49:10
  Lifeline is an integral part of that.
• 49:14
  I mean, the stats that I read from one of your reports is
• 49:17
  35,000 calls, 8 1/2 thousand hours of support, 4 1/2 thousand
• 49:26
  people who are experiencing suicidal thoughts and then 500
• 49:31
  people that were like needed immediate care.
• 49:36
  That just represents an amount of pain that's out there that
• 49:40
  needs across the support wall should should always exist.
• 49:45
  But another thing that you guys are doing is training, I guess,
• 49:48
  improving the mental health IQ and a couple of your programmes,
• 49:53
  the working mind, the accidental cancer, which I think we we need
• 49:57
  to be more mindful of it are for our because it, you know, I
• 50:00
  guess it's a safe space and that can happen.
• 50:03
  Then also the suicide intervention, the the ASSIST
• 50:07
  programme. I think that's such an important
• 50:10
  load of work that you guys are doing as well.
• 50:12
  Yeah, we're, we're trying to get as far upstream as we can.
• 50:15
  So accidental counsellors actually up until about 15 years
• 50:19
  ago, each centre that is lifeline around the country,
• 50:22
  there's 42 centres. We have Victoria and Canberra,
• 50:28
  they ran their own training and so and there was some really
• 50:32
  interesting training tactics back in the day when that became
• 50:37
  quite standardised. So when you ring Lifeline now,
• 50:40
  you'll get the same experience, the same as I mentioned earlier,
• 50:42
  the same greeting and that's for good reason.
• 50:46
  But when you ring now, you get that really standard response
• 50:49
  initially and then obviously an incredible support thereafter.
• 50:55
  But accidental counsellors actually when we went to that
• 50:59
  standardised national programme and that was so that we could
• 51:02
  uplift our surplus. So when we had more volunteers,
• 51:06
  we could answer calls in NSW and without overflow.
• 51:09
  So those stats you mentioned are Canberra based.
• 51:12
  So it's almost now it's closer to 45,000 this year.
• 51:16
  So that's, you know, almost 10% of the Canberra community
• 51:20
  needing lifeline to get through the day or the year.
• 51:23
  And that's, that's astounding to me in it's good, I guess that
• 51:27
  people are reaching out more and more.
• 51:28
  And you hope that's that's the case because of a reduction and
• 51:30
  stigma, but it also means, you know, many more people in crisis
• 51:33
  that we know of and. Are they further up the stream
• 51:37
  you're noticing like they're calling people calling earlier
• 51:40
  in there spiral down or you don't really know.
• 51:43
  You don't classify all this person's bad way, but they're
• 51:46
  not right at the bottom ready to like could be noticed anything
• 51:50
  around that? Unfortunately not so that's what
• 51:52
  we're seeing they it's people in a absolute crisis or imminent
• 51:57
  risk. So it's it's unfortunately not
• 51:59
  yeah, the case we're hopeful that there are many more people
• 52:03
  reaching out so that. Earlier, yeah.
• 52:06
  Yeah, or reaching out at all, you know, as you mentioned
• 52:09
  earlier, it's, it's just making sure that we're there.
• 52:12
  It's often something that we reflect on is that every
• 52:16
  organisation that we work alongside, every organisation in
• 52:21
  Canberra offering supports, also has to go home at 5:00 PM.
• 52:26
  So we become, I guess, the. Right as things get start,
• 52:30
  getting busy isn't. It 4:00 PM Well, maybe that's
• 52:33
  what yeah and maybe that's also another reason why in fact, but
• 52:37
  yeah, so the the courses and the training, it's a fantastic in
• 52:41
  fantastic investment in yourself.
• 52:43
  Accidental counsellor is actually a 2 day course that
• 52:45
  used to be our six month course. We've condensed it down.
• 52:48
  That's our crisis support of workplace training from 15 years
• 52:51
  ago that's now been tinkered with to make sure it's evidence
• 52:53
  based and international best practise.
• 52:56
  But accidental counsellors beautiful assist yes, suicide
• 52:59
  intervention skills training. That's for really being able to
• 53:04
  interesting fact is that Lifeline crisis supporters are
• 53:06
  trained to do suicide intervention face to face.
• 53:10
  So, you know, it's not unusual. And I've had situations where
• 53:14
  you had to intervene physically and you've got all the skills.
• 53:17
  It's, it's something that everyone, if they had it, could
• 53:22
  see a situation. And I was driving, I was
• 53:24
  actually driving to the jetty. It's coming to your place and to
• 53:27
  have a Friday afternoon drink. It was 515 and I was driving
• 53:31
  through Charnwood and I had the Lifeline car and a lady pulled
• 53:37
  out to me at the traffic lights and she was honking and I sort
• 53:39
  of, I went in my window. I thought, Oh my God, did I cut
• 53:43
  you off? I mean, I'm normally pretty good
• 53:45
  at indicating. And she said there's a lady on
• 53:47
  the bridge back there and she was frantic and it was one of
• 53:52
  the biggest four way intersections on the north side.
• 53:55
  So try to get back in around and thank God by the time I got
• 53:58
  there, this young girl was still there.
• 54:02
  And so I pulled up, jumped out the car.
• 54:04
  You just, you don't even need to think.
• 54:06
  And I knew the whole time you know I was going to be OK.
• 54:08
  You're calm. As you say, the, the, the
• 54:11
  training is, is something anyone can do and so therefore can be
• 54:16
  prepared for any situation, whether it's just to sit in the
• 54:19
  mud with someone at a BBQ because they've had a bad day or
• 54:23
  whether you are driving in fact somewhere.
• 54:25
  So your, your goal is an ambitious 1, but it's possible
• 54:29
  if everyone and I, I remember saying about 10 years ago, if
• 54:32
  everyone did lifeline training, I would put my house on the fact
• 54:36
  that there would be no suicides. And so that was me trying to get
• 54:42
  people to go further upstream and and get into training and
• 54:46
  give themselves. On the stream, like I, I find
• 54:50
  that fascinating cause your fellow countrymen, Jake White
• 54:53
  used to always talk about the, the streaming and if someone
• 54:57
  missed a tackle, he'd go upstream of where the actual
• 54:59
  root cause was. And it was usually the set, set
• 55:01
  piece, boy, but it was set piece.
• 55:05
  So be can you like just elaborate on this stream
• 55:08
  metaphor? Because I find that fascinating.
• 55:10
  It's really, yes, it's about the genesis, a complex system.
• 55:14
  Thinking is everything's sort of interrelated and everything has
• 55:18
  a consequence, whether it's intended or unintended.
• 55:20
  And so to try and simplify it, you're trying to go back to the
• 55:25
  very beginning. And for all of us as individual,
• 55:27
  we come with different risks, we come with different biological
• 55:30
  risks, we come in with different life experiences.
• 55:32
  So it's not about understanding the individual, it's about
• 55:35
  understanding basically where someone is in their mental
• 55:38
  health journey and someone who is operating.
• 55:42
  If you look at the mental health continuum, another amazing
• 55:44
  model, it's when I was talking about the four colours, you've
• 55:47
  got green, yellow, orange and red and being able to identify
• 55:51
  where you are on that continuum. So when you're in the green, you
• 55:54
  know you're healthy. When you're in the yellow,
• 55:56
  you're reactive. So someone who's normally quite
• 55:59
  funny yourself at imagine on a Monday morning, no, Friday
• 56:03
  afternoon, if you're in the green and you're you're a joke
• 56:08
  teller, Suddenly you come in to work the next day or you're
• 56:12
  hanging around your fence the next day and suddenly you're
• 56:13
  quite sarcastic or it's more displaced sarcasm than than
• 56:16
  corny humour, for example. And so that just tells everyone
• 56:19
  around you, if they understand the continuum that you've gone
• 56:22
  from the green to the yellow. It's quick check in.
• 56:25
  You don't check in at that point that that can decline into the
• 56:28
  orange, which is injured and the red, which is ill.
• 56:31
  And it's a bi directional model because you can be injured or
• 56:35
  ill and absolutely be healthy with the right work and the
• 56:40
  right supports. And sometimes they need to be
• 56:42
  stronger and sometimes they can be quite generic.
• 56:45
  We're talking about energy healing earlier.
• 56:47
  Can I slip in the crystals too soon?
• 56:50
  So we were talking about different ways that people reach
• 56:53
  out and try and stay healthy. And sometimes they are evidence
• 56:56
  based approaches and sometimes there's there's things that are
• 56:58
  not evidence based. But the continuum is a great
• 57:00
  model to use because it allows you to have that conversation
• 57:03
  where you are without having to name the emotion.
• 57:05
  Where you are in the stream. Yeah, yeah.
• 57:08
  So when you're further upstream, essentially our community, you
• 57:11
  know, are in the green and when they start to get down into the
• 57:14
  yellow, the orange or even the red, that's where you're sort of
• 57:19
  seeing the waterfall. That's where that for us.
• 57:21
  I don't know whether Jake had a waterfall in his analogy.
• 57:23
  Was that a loss? No, I don't know.
• 57:26
  It'll come back to. Let's get him on the.
• 57:27
  Line a little bit. What you like, I know you like
• 57:29
  to talk about, is if there's more people in the green and
• 57:35
  they're also more aware of the role they can play in somebody
• 57:38
  else's journey, they've got more energy to help somebody who does
• 57:41
  fall into the. Who's in the orange Orange.
• 57:44
  There's more people in the yellow or the IT just by a
• 57:48
  factor of scale, there's less people that are able to help.
• 57:52
  And then so if you push more people and the systems are still
• 57:55
  there to catch the people that are going to fall because people
• 57:57
  will fall to red for whatever reason.
• 58:00
  But if we've got more people in the green, in the systems we
• 58:03
  got, we catch more people. Absolutely and you're right,
• 58:05
  people can go from the green straight to the red.
• 58:08
  You would have gone through a life changing, you know, events
• 58:10
  that took you from one place to another and you've.
• 58:14
  Found packet in Europe with his mates when?
• 58:17
  Absolutely in the green and then thrown as the red I.
• 58:19
  Don't know we're putting our bodies through a bit of a
• 58:21
  punish. Maybe.
• 58:24
  Because I'm with you, I think it's possible if everyone has a
• 58:28
  mental health IQ. I always like to talk about this
• 58:31
  disaster relief study they did where they just got you call it
• 58:36
  amateur counsellors. So obviously your professionals
• 58:39
  are the ones that have gone through extensive training.
• 58:41
  And then the amateur would be the equivalent of the two day
• 58:44
  accidental, not the amateurs, but for the context.
• 58:48
  And they were just as effective at counselling for the disaster,
• 58:54
  the natural disaster that the people had gone through.
• 58:57
  And so if you go, OK, the whole population is 20 mental health
• 59:02
  IQ points higher. What does that do for scale?
• 59:07
  And yeah, I just, I agree that that's a massive, massive yeah
• 59:13
  mental health like human training does.
• 59:15
  That is a massive indication. So going through COVID, we were
• 59:17
  all in the yellow or the orange. I mean, no matter how it's a.
• 59:20
  Factor of restriction, yeah, yeah.
• 59:22
  And so going up the stream, you feel like like what?
• 59:26
  Sorry, just a bit more like the practically what's Lifeline
• 59:29
  doing to get up the stream? Is it trying to create awareness
• 59:33
  through education so people just can catch themselves earlier up
• 59:38
  the stream? Is that what you mean by when?
• 59:40
  Think about it. It's as prevention, so
• 59:42
  preventing it, you know, even from people climbing into the
• 59:44
  stream, prevention just not even getting into that river of
• 59:47
  suicide if you want to call it, or the river of mental illness.
• 59:52
  It's about prevention, even even going near the stream.
• 59:57
  So it's just about trying to keep people out of that journey.
• 1:00:00
  Through education in a. Way through education, yeah, So.
• 1:00:04
  But with good habits too, habits that will help them if they do
• 1:00:06
  fall in. Yeah, it's almost like learning
• 1:00:08
  to swim in the pool so that if you do get caught in a RIP, you
• 1:00:14
  can still swim. And yeah.
• 1:00:16
  Absolutely. And the signs of like, where am
• 1:00:18
  I in the, where am I in the stream?
• 1:00:20
  You know, I'm, I'm not sleeping, I'm not eating, I'm relying more
• 1:00:24
  on alcohol. I've I've isolated myself.
• 1:00:26
  I'm not returning my mate's phone calls.
• 1:00:28
  I'm not in the green anymore. It's about having that self
• 1:00:31
  compassion to be self aware, to test, stop and think about
• 1:00:33
  yourself and go, yeah, I'm I'm no longer up, up, up that end of
• 1:00:37
  the stream. My behaviours have declined.
• 1:00:40
  You rely on your mates and it's the game of the training comes
• 1:00:42
  in or again stigma and it's harder for some members of our
• 1:00:46
  community to have this conversation.
• 1:00:48
  It's a tough conversation. You do the assist training and
• 1:00:52
  you have to ask the question of the trainer.
• 1:00:54
  So I look you square in the eyes and say, are you having thoughts
• 1:00:56
  of suicide now? If I asked you to say that
• 1:00:59
  straight back to me, it's. Not you having thoughts of
• 1:01:02
  suicide. That's amazing.
• 1:01:04
  It's not easy to say. It's actually not easy to say
• 1:01:08
  when you you know, when you, when you're sitting as someone
• 1:01:10
  who hasn't had any training, you've not been in that
• 1:01:12
  situation before and you have to look someone square in the ass
• 1:01:14
  and ask that question. It's very confronting.
• 1:01:17
  So the training just prepares you for that.
• 1:01:19
  We do role plays. You get put into scenarios.
• 1:01:21
  I think it's sad because I've known you what, 20 long, long
• 1:01:24
  time. But yes, we're.
• 1:01:25
  Not that old. But you're opening the door to a
• 1:01:27
  conversation that could be quite heavy.
• 1:01:29
  Yes, The answer could be yes. And then what?
• 1:01:34
  You know, Yeah. And that's where, again, people
• 1:01:37
  might not ask the question. My Gran used to say when she was
• 1:01:41
  in the retirement village, she goes, I don't ask anyone how
• 1:01:43
  they are anymore because I'm afraid, I'm afraid they'll tell
• 1:01:45
  me. This is for different reason.
• 1:01:49
  You want to ask the question. But what if this what if the
• 1:01:51
  answer is yes? And that's when I liken it to a
• 1:01:54
  heart attack. So I say to people, right, take
• 1:01:56
  out the mental, take out the emotional.
• 1:01:58
  You're sitting with someone and they're suddenly clutch at their
• 1:02:00
  chest. They fall to the floor.
• 1:02:03
  Their life is at risk. What are you going to do?
• 1:02:05
  What would you do? CPR.
• 1:02:08
  CPR call an ambulance and it's exactly the same with someone
• 1:02:13
  who is sitting with a life threatening situation and it's
• 1:02:17
  between. There he is.
• 1:02:19
  It's about saying I will sit with you, I'll stay with you.
• 1:02:22
  That's just CPR. I'm not going to leave your
• 1:02:24
  side, but I need to bring in reinforcements.
• 1:02:27
  I need to bring in health help. Do you mind if we sit and ring
• 1:02:29
  Lifeline together? I'm going to ring an ambulance
• 1:02:32
  and I'll stay with you the entire time.
• 1:02:34
  So our first responders are very, very compassionate and
• 1:02:39
  incredibly well trained individuals to be able to manage
• 1:02:42
  those situations with empathy as well.
• 1:02:46
  As I identify OK, I have it so many there's a lot I want to ask
• 1:02:49
  you Carrie the one sorry if I cut you off the story when you
• 1:02:53
  were going to the person bridge but can you also just listeners
• 1:02:57
  tell the story about the black spots that you guys have helped
• 1:03:02
  the hotspot the hotspot sorry that you've been shine lastly
• 1:03:04
  can yeah sorry can I think I cut you off from that first story
• 1:03:07
  and then and then also the the. Hotspot story at that time, yes,
• 1:03:12
  the the police, my partner was in the car.
• 1:03:16
  He rang 000. The police got there and she
• 1:03:21
  was, she was, she was fine at that time.
• 1:03:26
  The hotspots, that's essentially a hotspot.
• 1:03:30
  A suicide hotspot is a term we use for a well known place where
• 1:03:34
  people will go to attempt suicide to end their life.
• 1:03:36
  And we very recently working with the NCA were able to secure
• 1:03:45
  a location, I'm an identifier location as a hotspot in
• 1:03:49
  Canberra. And the NCA, the team in place,
• 1:03:53
  they have not hesitated to do everything they needed to do to
• 1:03:55
  put up signage on, you know, we, we walked, we walked the, the
• 1:04:01
  area from every angle and they looked at every possible place
• 1:04:06
  they could put the right messaging.
• 1:04:08
  So stencilled onto the floor signposts on the road, on the
• 1:04:12
  bridges, on on the park fences, on the picnic benches, they have
• 1:04:17
  made no, no attempts to block that messaging.
• 1:04:21
  And it's been something that we have seen because if you ring
• 1:04:25
  the number from a hotspot, it comes straight to the front of
• 1:04:28
  the queue for lifeline. So it'll identify to our cross
• 1:04:31
  supporter that this is a live hotspot call.
• 1:04:35
  And so immediately there's another protocol for that.
• 1:04:38
  And we've had that number, that location activated twice since
• 1:04:43
  the hotspot was made active and we've had no incidents.
• 1:04:47
  So there's a really positive news story it's and a wonderful
• 1:04:52
  outcome for our community. It's just that person at that
• 1:04:56
  moment in time taking a pause and something saying I need to
• 1:05:02
  to reach out and. And not being too hard to reach,
• 1:05:05
  like, yeah, they have to reach just there and make it a little
• 1:05:09
  they need. That's amazing.
• 1:05:13
  Yeah, it's AI mean to bring it back full circle kind of before
• 1:05:17
  before we ask you one final question is it can be a circuit
• 1:05:22
  breaker, can't it? Those little signs that people
• 1:05:24
  say they will be they'll blinkers on, nothing else in
• 1:05:27
  their life is going right and they only see one Ave and all it
• 1:05:31
  can take is just seeing a sign that just flicks the thought one
• 1:05:35
  way or the other and then they can call and then hopefully it's
• 1:05:38
  a trajectory out of that despair that we spoke about with the
• 1:05:43
  story of Josh and what he shared at the Lifeline Gala, carry the
• 1:05:48
  two questions. I always do this.
• 1:05:51
  The work Lifeline does is incredible.
• 1:05:54
  Seriously, it's a testament to you, the volunteers, everyone
• 1:05:58
  involved, the supporters, the people that go to the book for
• 1:06:00
  everyone. It's needed.
• 1:06:04
  Is there any way we can send people or how can offer our help
• 1:06:07
  with Lifeline? Oh, I think it's, you know,
• 1:06:12
  you've just mentioned myself. The volunteers, so many of our
• 1:06:19
  connections assist. I mean, Ben and I catch up for
• 1:06:24
  whether I'm going through a child latte stage or a decaf
• 1:06:27
  coffee stage or turmeric. Do you drink turmeric lattes?
• 1:06:31
  I'm black all the way. Oh, like, yeah.
• 1:06:33
  So I'm back on those, but it, it's really just about as, as
• 1:06:37
  individuals in the space, creating the space and create.
• 1:06:41
  It's, it's so wonderful to be able to walk in.
• 1:06:44
  And I know, Ben, I've done this. I've walked in and go, Oh my
• 1:06:46
  goodness, this happened to me this morning and I derailed the
• 1:06:48
  whole meeting because I just need to vent and it's a safe
• 1:06:50
  space. So how can you help?
• 1:06:52
  You already are. It's it gives our organisation
• 1:06:55
  and our team members who participate in the walks and the
• 1:06:58
  runs so much pride in in doing that.
• 1:07:01
  You are right at the coalface. Coalface.
• 1:07:04
  Rather you are there doing the thing like grass roots.
• 1:07:09
  You know that you're having that conversation, you're opening the
• 1:07:12
  door, you're creating connection, you're preventing
• 1:07:13
  isolation. It's everything we admire.
• 1:07:17
  It's sometimes difficult when you're sitting in a phone room
• 1:07:20
  in a building far away and you don't have a face or a name.
• 1:07:25
  So we sort of live vicariously through you guys.
• 1:07:27
  I think it's just about helping us with that.
• 1:07:29
  That barrier around is Lifeline for me.
• 1:07:32
  Should I call? You know it?
• 1:07:34
  Yes, Yeah. And having that conversation and
• 1:07:38
  letting everyone know that Lifeline is for them and knowing
• 1:07:42
  the number. And the last, last question, it
• 1:07:46
  is the last question, who would you want to say on the after our
• 1:07:50
  podcast whether we interview them or whether you interview
• 1:07:53
  them? Wow.
• 1:07:56
  The universe. And hopefully it happens, yeah.
• 1:07:58
  Look, there are so many people that inspire me.
• 1:08:01
  I think you should definitely talk to Wayne Phillips from
• 1:08:04
  Emergency Services ACT. He heads it up and his approach
• 1:08:10
  his his, the culture he creates, his dedication and commitment,
• 1:08:16
  his sense of humour, nothing else.
• 1:08:19
  Just let him tell jokes for an hour.
• 1:08:22
  You know, that's here in Canberra.
• 1:08:24
  There are just so many incredible people.
• 1:08:25
  You would have met so many incredible people.
• 1:08:27
  It's, you know, for me, it's that ability to go through
• 1:08:31
  something yourself and then turn around and turn it into
• 1:08:34
  something positive. So I'm sitting with you.
• 1:08:35
  I'd like to talk to you. Like I said, I have a million
• 1:08:37
  questions for you, Ben. I think I've two years off all
• 1:08:40
  the time. It's nice that we share the same
• 1:08:43
  building now. So that's that's awesome.
• 1:08:47
  Look, there's the the big names and I've had the privilege of
• 1:08:51
  meeting so many incredible people as well.
• 1:08:53
  I met Nelson Mandela on my birthday.
• 1:08:55
  So I always throw that out there because that Madiba, Madiba,
• 1:09:00
  that was these things. Yeah, game changes.
• 1:09:03
  I think if I, if I could have a conversation and open an honest
• 1:09:06
  conversation with anyone, it would be absolutely anyone.
• 1:09:09
  Because everyone has a story. Don't you find that you, you sit
• 1:09:11
  down and you just, you go? For Korean politics after this.
• 1:09:16
  No. The diplomatic answer.
• 1:09:19
  Oh no, that's the magic though. Like, I just sat down to have a
• 1:09:24
  conversation with you guys. We've been joking outside about
• 1:09:26
  all sorts of things. And you you open with your your
• 1:09:29
  experience and your journey. And I'm just that there's so
• 1:09:33
  much in that. I don't, I don't, I hope you
• 1:09:36
  know that. Like there's, there's so much
• 1:09:38
  value in that. There's strength.
• 1:09:39
  There's yeah, there's so much in that.
• 1:09:42
  So you, You what's? Good as it feels normal for me
• 1:09:45
  and I think that's a testament up to you, to Benny, but also
• 1:09:49
  the community that Afra is. It doesn't feel brave anymore,
• 1:09:54
  it feels normal and I hope that other people feel that way too.
• 1:09:58
  Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, that's awesome.
• 1:10:00
  And everyone's got a story. Everyone.
• 1:10:02
  Yeah. Carrie, thank you.
• 1:10:06
  We appreciate it. Thanks for having me for just
• 1:10:08
  that was a that was a good chat. I just.
• 1:10:10
  Yeah, that's what I'm in the face.
• 1:10:12
  Oh wow.