Latest / Connect Call / EP27 - Beyond the Bubble: Why Staying Sober After Treatment Is the Hard Part | Joy & Dia

Transcript

EP27 - Beyond the Bubble: Why Staying Sober After Treatment Is the Hard Part | Joy & Dia · Connect Call

0:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Hi, you've reached the voicemail of Hannah Brett with Connect Call.
0:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Just leave a message and I'll get back to you soon as I can.
0:06
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks.
0:07
[SPEAKER_00]: One for more options.
0:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey Hannah, I got your number from The Last Treatment Center.
0:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I was at actually, they recommended I touch base with you.
0:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So I've gotten a residential treatment now a few times, and I've just, ugh, I relapsed again, and I'm struggling, and I just, I think I need some extra, I don't know, wraparound help at home, where some,
0:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what it is.
0:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe a coach of some sort, but more than that, I don't know if you can recommend anything or any one for me, but I would love a callback.
0:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, I greatly appreciate it.
0:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Hi, this is Hannah Brett with another episode of Connect Call, where I often say I do not have a clinical background, but I do have a PhD for picking up the phones for families in crisis.
0:59
[SPEAKER_03]: And I see this quite, no, I don't say this quite often.
1:03
[SPEAKER_03]: But if I do, I don't mean it like I really mean it today.
1:06
[SPEAKER_03]: I have two of my favorite human beings in life and also in this industry as my guest today.
1:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Dia Parsons, enjoy Stevens from Alagria Collaborative.
1:18
[SPEAKER_02]: job, right?
1:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was like, Alagria connection.
1:23
[SPEAKER_02]: What did I do?
1:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I said Algeria, but that's okay.
1:26
[SPEAKER_02]: We get it off.
1:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
1:28
[SPEAKER_03]: What does Alagria mean again?
1:29
[SPEAKER_03]: And you're rolling your arms.
1:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
1:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Good.
1:31
[SPEAKER_03]: I did that with Katie, Katie Iyer when I was trying to talk about Jen and saying
1:41
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, I did take Spanish.
1:42
[SPEAKER_03]: So I know how to roll my arms up.
1:44
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's what Spanish before I spoke English.
1:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's right.
1:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Really?
1:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, were your parents?
1:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Were they famous?
1:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Mexico City when I was six months old.
1:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
1:57
[SPEAKER_03]: I wish I had like my grandmother was fluent in like eight or nine languages and I could barely get through Spanish.
2:05
[SPEAKER_03]: So I digress.
2:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's get back.
2:10
[SPEAKER_03]: So I agree.
2:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Enjoy.
2:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I would does it should.
2:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, happiness joy.
2:16
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, you know, it's up.
2:17
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so joy Stevens named her company with Dia their company after herself.
2:22
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's already you can see the ego, but it's.
2:27
[SPEAKER_03]: It's fine.
2:28
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not a true story right there.
2:30
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I'm getting it.
2:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk, I'm just going to quickly read a little bit about your bios because pretty impressive.
2:36
[SPEAKER_03]: So the joy and dea are, you know, I often say when I, the part of big reason why I want to do this show is in an industry that isn't being policed really or being monitored.
2:48
[SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of the Wild West with a lot of people who say they can do A-B-N-C and they're not credentialed
2:58
[SPEAKER_03]: and
2:59
[SPEAKER_03]: these guys are the real deal.
3:01
[SPEAKER_03]: So let me start.
3:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Joyce Stevens is the founder and partner of Allegria Collaborative, which she established in 2018 after a decade of working as a recovery coach and case manager.
3:12
[SPEAKER_03]: During those early years, Joy became known for her ability to work with a complex client's collaborating closely with teams of physicians, clinicians, and other mental health professionals to support the individual facing significant challenges.
3:26
[SPEAKER_03]: Amen.
3:29
[SPEAKER_03]: Parsons is the CEO and partner of Al-Riree Al-Riree Al-Riree Al-Riree Al-Riree Collaborative, a boutique, behavioral health, case management and recovery management company, specialized in personalized support for individuals and families navigating mental health challenges, substance use disorders and complex co-occurring conditions.
3:51
[SPEAKER_03]: And everyone, if you want to read the rest of their bios, which are great, that was not my bio, by the way.
3:57
[SPEAKER_02]: That was the company's bio, I think, just to know.
4:01
[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, I kind of, I mean, I am Alexandria, so I guess if you are.
4:07
[SPEAKER_03]: So, um, why I wanted to have also you guys on the show is like, I like to educate my viewers and listeners on all different types of treatment, all different, you know, because I'm a big believer that just because John, my next or neighbor went and did this to get sober, get better, you know, doesn't mean it's going to work for me.
4:27
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think the thing I've learned in the 20 years that I've been doing this is there's it's not one fit for all right and what's beautiful is there are so many opportunities for people to like build this life to get better and heal and it doesn't have to be what we all think it needs to be and like you have to go to residential treatment and then you know what I mean and so there's just all these different opportunities of where to meet the client where they're at.
4:53
[SPEAKER_03]: So, and I wanted to also kind of talk about your company with case management and coaching and all of that because I think, you know, without naming names, we've seen it in the news with some of the high profile youth and older clients in the news where you hear there is a transport or there was case management.
5:16
[SPEAKER_03]: And so not blaming anybody, but it's just important to educate people to really make them understand what you guys do and how you do it and why it's so important because it really is and I'm a big fan of it with clients.
5:32
[SPEAKER_03]: young and old.
5:33
[SPEAKER_03]: So let's start with the basics guys.
5:36
[SPEAKER_03]: When someone serves the terms case management and recovery or mental health coaching, what does that actually mean?
5:45
[SPEAKER_03]: What does working with a client on a daily day basis look like if you're, and I know every situation is different.
5:51
[SPEAKER_03]: But like at the core, when you're explaining to a family what case management and all this is, can you just talk a little bit about that?
6:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, okay.
6:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
6:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Brock's a good question, Hannah.
6:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, but I really want to start by saying that, you know, I, I believe that residential is necessary, you know, I believe it, too.
6:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
6:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Go not not always a fit, but it just depends.
6:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Everything is so like you, I mean, you touched on it earlier.
6:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Everything, every person comes with something different.
6:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Their history, their trauma, diagnosis, family, history, all of these things.
6:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes the treatment is the container that keeps someone say, if it's really what happens afterwards, whether it's a hospital or treatment, I also want to start by saying that there's still people that do, there's a lot of people that do case management and they do good work.
6:46
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I'm just going to say so.
6:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm highlighting you for all the case managers out there.
6:51
[SPEAKER_02]: There's really a passionate and they do really good work.
6:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to Just want I always want to honor that we do talk about that a lot you guys look at it this way you guys are like to me.
7:03
[SPEAKER_03]: You're the ambassadors or the people that I chose I guess to talk about this, but like you were just saying I work with and there are there's so many amazing people who do this work
7:14
[SPEAKER_03]: and do it well.
7:16
[SPEAKER_03]: My job, I guess, with my podcast is just to really kind of, hopefully highlight the ones that are doing the good work and then clearing up, you know, maybe some red flags, what to look for and what are some green flags and all of that.
7:29
[SPEAKER_03]: But, yes.
7:30
[SPEAKER_02]: So case management is kind of a brilliant, I mean, I've always believed in case management once I started to find out about it while I was working in residential and, um, you know, for a lot of clients, you know, myself included in my history, like, you know, you do the time, you go to treatment, you feel good, you genuinely do and you feel like you got this and I can kind of out and I can do this discharge plan, I've got it, I will follow the direction,
7:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, next thing, you know, there are elements, you know, that you're up against, you know, triggers and things.
8:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And or you're like negotiating your way out of certain things.
8:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not kidding.
8:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I OP today.
8:07
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and that's your fall.
8:08
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's a brilliant way to hold yourself accountable and be a part of your recovery process as a collaboration.
8:16
[SPEAKER_02]: We always stress that we are not doing this at anyone.
8:19
[SPEAKER_02]: This, we want them to be a part of their process.
8:24
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really challenging.
8:25
[SPEAKER_01]: This is in our name, collaborate.
8:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so we want them to be a part of this whole process.
8:31
[SPEAKER_02]: And so really having them understand that like we will work with them on and whatever it is, maybe they need to go to sober living first, you know, there's so many options based on what somebody might need, we can help you that container and support the family because also they struggle once the client is out.
8:50
[SPEAKER_02]: They struggle with, how do I hold the boundary?
8:52
[SPEAKER_02]: How do I continue just being a parent without policing my kid?
8:55
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, a lot of coaching involved in that.
8:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and then that support at in-home support with the coaches, some people call it companions.
9:03
[SPEAKER_02]: We feel that our oversight and accountability is so strong that I feel like there's so much value with the coaches.
9:11
[SPEAKER_02]: We're very particular with the people we work with.
9:13
[SPEAKER_02]: There's value in what we bring to the home.
9:16
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not just sitting on somebody.
9:17
[SPEAKER_02]: which is not babysitting.
9:19
[SPEAKER_02]: 100%.
9:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, we're challenged.
9:23
[SPEAKER_02]: We know that they can do better.
9:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
9:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And we want them to believe that too.
9:27
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is a collaboration with the client and the family.
9:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And so how do we create results?
9:32
[SPEAKER_02]: How do we get you to a higher level of functioning?
9:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And then how do we step out?
9:36
[SPEAKER_02]: How where do we get you to a place where you're done with us?
9:39
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, right.
9:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I want to say to like, you know, when people leave treatment and they've been in this bubble and they've done all of this work and they're feeling really good.
9:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Like Dia said, they're so earnest.
9:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I really believe most people are earnest when they say, leave and I'm going to do this.
9:54
[SPEAKER_03]: I talk about this all the time.
9:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
9:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and then, you know, the triggers are all waiting there.
10:00
[SPEAKER_01]: The.
10:01
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the guy that cuts you off and you know, if you're not staying diligent with your plan, you know, that the odds are that, you know, I think it's why the rate of recidivism is so high, but with case management, you have that oversight.
10:15
[SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of people go to treatment multiple multiple times.
10:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and, and, and so, you know, I hate to turn bridge to the gap because it's like, man, right?
10:33
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's, it's taking.
10:35
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want there to be a gap.
10:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
10:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
10:38
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, you know, we, we really love to start meeting somebody and working with them and getting to know them.
10:43
[SPEAKER_01]: A couple of weeks before they leave treatment.
10:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
10:45
[SPEAKER_01]: We can have like a,
10:47
[SPEAKER_01]: some semblance of a plan and they're not just dropped on their head like, right?
10:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're done.
10:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Go to here, you know, so that it's kind of a more gentle transition.
10:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And we already have a rapport with them, we already have some semblance of a plan.
11:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And ultimately, you know, it might be ADLs, even we might be starting there.
11:09
[SPEAKER_01]: But ultimately, you know, our job is to find them
11:12
[SPEAKER_01]: support system with peer to peer support system outside of us because that's sustainable right we don't want to keep a client forever we want and do you talking about working with somebody working with somebody helps make a sustainable plan because it's what they like it's based on where their passion is.
11:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
11:32
[SPEAKER_03]: And I, and just to, I'm just going to give you my own personal, a few examples of my experiences of what case, where you can see case management and where I see it's so effective.
11:42
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, so many areas one is.
11:45
[SPEAKER_03]: uh like when I was working in treatment with young adults the family had hired uh interventionist with the case management right and what's so beautiful about case management is it's and I I often say that's just from my own treatment experience of just going to treatment and literally quoted in the movie 28 days and thinking I was like a rock star and yeah.
12:06
[SPEAKER_03]: but also telling my mom that was easy, staying sober in that bubble is easy.
12:10
[SPEAKER_03]: Here's what wasn't easy and this is how I relapsed.
12:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Is as soon as I went down that hill from treatment.
12:16
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I just still remember going to pick up my first at the time we didn't have Uber Eats.
12:22
[SPEAKER_03]: And I went, you know, when you used to go pick up your dinner at the restaurant, you have to sit at the bar and wait, right, or like no one showed me how to show up for doctor's appointments or to interview or just kind of like what I, when I think of mental health, like healing, whether it's recovery with addiction or anything, if you have the, if you're able to, you know,
12:48
[SPEAKER_03]: afford and are able to hire and do this what's so beautiful about case management.
12:53
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like they you guys are like holding the hands of the family constantly you're holding the hands of the client and slowly kind of pulling away but like keeping them accountable for just and like because like you said like I could have a family what I was going to say was like I had this family and treatment and yeah family weekend was great right it was two days
13:13
[SPEAKER_03]: But then they go home and they're like, I now have to practice this and then this is uncomfortable.
13:17
[SPEAKER_03]: They don't know how to love differently.
13:19
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's just, if they can have that case management with the family, we see the outcome so much more effective.
13:25
[SPEAKER_03]: Also, I will say personally, I had been to treatment a couple times and then about eight years ago when my mental health took a tank.
13:33
[SPEAKER_03]: I remember I went to an interventionist friend of mine saying, I feel like I need someone to case management.
13:40
[SPEAKER_03]: And I, I was like, don't make fun of me and she's like, I'm not, I'm going to give you one of my case managers and literally this person that with me on a weekly.
13:50
[SPEAKER_03]: to just make sure are you doing A, B, and C?
13:53
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you keeping me like just accountable and touching base with me in real time about stuff that you can't do with your therapist, you can't do with your psychiatrist and you're not in residential treatment anymore.
14:07
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I am all for residential treatment, but I also believe that sometimes the white walls and exit signs are not the most effective for certain people.
14:18
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, there are people who have been to treatment so many times.
14:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
14:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
14:22
[SPEAKER_02]: That they have it all in them.
14:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes that's where we start with people.
14:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
14:27
[SPEAKER_02]: It just depends where we're all for sending someone to treatment.
14:31
[SPEAKER_02]: If that's what we after assessment.
14:33
[SPEAKER_02]: We think it's most appropriate.
14:35
[SPEAKER_02]: But a lot of times if they've been multiple, you know, let's I've been a treatment 10 times, you know, already.
14:42
[SPEAKER_02]: And
14:43
[SPEAKER_03]: So we know for my listeners and viewers, that's not even like just to, I read some more than national average for someone to go to treatment, don't want to scare people is seven times.
14:54
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, it never used to be like this.
14:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I could go into a whole tangent.
14:58
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to stay focused, but do it.
15:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Do it.
15:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Do it.
15:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Do it.
15:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Do it.
15:04
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I just, you know, that's, it's really important to really understand where someone is at, what they've gone through, not just treatment, how many hospitalizations have you had, you know, that's also another version, but sort of like in the mental health capacity, like, you know, repeat offenders, a lot of people are doing marijuana activating some psychotic and
15:31
[SPEAKER_02]: So how many hospitalizations have we had and how can we maintain the situation and get them to you know, stabilization, a safer place, all around, you know, so we're looking at the big picture.
15:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I say something to?
15:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I do want to say that we're supervised.
15:48
[SPEAKER_01]: We have supervision.
15:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So you know, we're not necessarily calling all these shots.
15:53
[SPEAKER_01]: We work with, you know, we put teams together so that
16:00
[SPEAKER_01]: We have a therapist that supervises us.
16:02
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow, meanwhile, I have to say this too, to toast to them, and I've met with a lot of teams and met with a lot of professionals in my life of doing this.
16:12
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll agree a collaborative, I can't do it.
16:15
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll agree a collaborative team.
16:16
[SPEAKER_03]: You guys have an amazing team.
16:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Really?
16:19
[SPEAKER_03]: I was just talking about your team the other day.
16:22
[SPEAKER_03]: How every time I've met with any of them, how invested, and how passionate,
16:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, a lot of times you just, it's like anything else you might just meet people in the treatment field where you feel like they're just checking a box right they're just doing their job and we like to work with people and it's very apparent this is a calling it's not like another gig that you can see right through that so that's kind of you know where we start when we meet somebody this is a calling for you.
16:50
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
16:51
[SPEAKER_03]: I often say that to marketing representatives that I see that are just, you know, like just throwing out insurance cards and just trying to get heads and beds and all that kind of shit and and I'll be like guys if you want to make money.
17:03
[SPEAKER_03]: I did medical surge surgical equipment sales and like go do something like that.
17:07
[SPEAKER_03]: I go this is like you have to want to help people of course.
17:10
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, we all want to pay the bills, but you what trumps all of this is that we.
17:17
[SPEAKER_03]: These are people's lives, right?
17:19
[SPEAKER_03]: And, and it is a calling, you know, it's it's wanting to
17:24
[SPEAKER_03]: is lead people and help them, you know, I'm not gonna say this right, but I, you know, for me, I don't have children.
17:31
[SPEAKER_03]: So I always said I was really passionate about adolescence in young adults because I always feel like I'm an advocate for kids, you know, who can't speak.
17:39
[SPEAKER_03]: And I wanna help them and, you know, I wanna let them know that if you grab a scream, I'm gonna kill myself because you don't wanna go to treatment them, we're gonna stabilize you, you're not gonna wanna do that because it's not a fun time, you know what I mean?
17:50
[SPEAKER_03]: And just, but it's just, it is a calling, right?
17:53
[SPEAKER_03]: My next question is this, so we were just talking about resident treatment when you're assessing the calls that come in.
18:00
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you decide and maybe it's starting one way and then it switches, but how do you guys like what how do you figure out let's say with a case if.
18:09
[SPEAKER_03]: know, they have to be stabilized.
18:10
[SPEAKER_03]: They need residential treatment right now or let's slow this trying down a little bit and see if they could just stay at home, do case management, do this IOP or whatever you guys recommend, but not have to go into that residential setting.
18:25
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you guys decipher for people before that whole residential piece if need be?
18:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I think if they've never
18:36
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm, I'm big on the time and space away from their drug of choice, their triggers allowing healing to happen, not just them, but with families or loved ones, you know, when we get a call, how do we assess where somebody needs to go right first, first and foremost, if they haven't been to treatment, we recommend treatment.
18:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's, it's an education, it's where you are understood by your peers, people experiencing the same thing as you are, which I think is really important because I think addiction in a mental illness, you know, we can become isolated, and we feel like we're the only, you know, only person dealing with us.
19:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
19:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're, yeah.
19:16
[SPEAKER_01]: On your heads, telling you all kinds of stories because it has.
19:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think it's a relief when you realize that you're not alone in this and there are people that have had the same struggles as you and their therapists that also understand the struggles that you've had and have answers for you.
19:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And, um, you know, I, I, I.
19:35
[SPEAKER_01]: There's usually loved ones involved right people that care about us.
19:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and everybody's kind of taken on this role Just because that's how you cope It's how you learn how to deal with it with people that are like with like cluster B people families You know, are for you know, what are cluster B people?
19:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a cluster B is now you're gonna make me second guess.
19:59
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a hive, you know, I'm much of bees
20:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I've never heard of this.
20:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to, I, my next license plate.
20:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
20:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you cut cluster be out with me?
20:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
20:12
[SPEAKER_01]: No, that's fine.
20:14
[SPEAKER_01]: The personality disturbances.
20:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So the borderline, the narcissistic, the,
20:22
[SPEAKER_03]: the anti-social right my next license plate and I think I think speaking of license plate and what I'm now I'm not going to I'm not I'll wait till we've done recording but I will say that I am you know
20:37
[SPEAKER_03]: This is a great example without, you know, I've had situations where, you know, whether it's friends of mine or parents that I speak to and this is another way where I think case management is just brilliant and families just for some reason we're like, now we'll do it this way instead of so like all have a mom calling where literally her identity.
20:59
[SPEAKER_03]: is trying to manage her daughter's isums and stuff and they're in high school and they're not getting worked on and they're x y and z or they're in college and she's still managing like you know cheating and she'll say well she didn't go to the doctor's appointment and she didn't do this and she didn't do that and then I'll say to that mom I'll say with all to respect there's a part of you that likes this role.
21:23
[SPEAKER_03]: because it's not like it, but it's your identity, right?
21:27
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's like, that's why it's so important.
21:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Any of this work, I think, and I really drill at home on this show, I hope.
21:35
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, this isn't just the identified patient everybody.
21:38
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the family.
21:39
[SPEAKER_03]: This is anybody involved.
21:41
[SPEAKER_02]: There are patterns that are, we're trying to challenge and un...
21:47
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, untangle and re-leave.
21:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you know what I mean?
21:50
[SPEAKER_02]: There's really, really weird.
21:53
[SPEAKER_02]: All of it, but there's, I mean, we understand that.
21:57
[SPEAKER_02]: These are patterns, you know, no shame, nothing.
21:59
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, more education, but you, you know, catering to your son or daughter, there's fear around if they don't get what they want to kill myself.
22:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's our job, how do we help make that person feel safe, that parent, and help them, and the individual, joy is actually taking someone to the hospital to let them know how it feels.
22:23
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, let's sit for eight hours, wait for a bed to be, or to be assessed.
22:27
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there was somebody who was like, you know, telling the parents, I'm going to kill myself and kill myself.
22:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And, oh my god, this is this, this somatic thing was happening to her.
22:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, I hear you.
22:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And we need to go to the emergency room because you're safety and containment is my priority.
22:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
22:43
[SPEAKER_03]: No one.
22:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
22:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So we went.
22:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It was not the hottest thing that you've ever done.
22:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was like, why is that baby going before me?
22:52
[SPEAKER_01]: They just got here and it's like, well, because did you see her finger going like that.
22:56
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a little bit, you know, the woman that came in with like, you know, and it's like, we, we, she wanted to go and it's like, no, but what was great about that.
23:05
[SPEAKER_01]: is that the parents did not try to step in.
23:08
[SPEAKER_01]: It was the first time that they were willing to try to hold a little boundary.
23:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And she was safe.
23:14
[SPEAKER_01]: She was with me.
23:15
[SPEAKER_01]: We were going to make sure that her, you know, medically, she was safe.
23:20
[SPEAKER_01]: But the outcome is where they realized like,
23:24
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't kill herself.
23:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.
23:26
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't call us and scream at us, you know, or she called like an hour after like, yeah, hand up the phone.
23:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And now they just sit there.
23:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't respond.
23:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't do anything in our later.
23:36
[SPEAKER_01]: She calls and she's like, okay.
23:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll do it.
23:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, oh my god.
23:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's it's to see and if you do different things different things happen right and that's it you hold a boundary and you see how that effects the left one that you've been talking about and I know for some people it feels the opposite of nurturing but it's actually the most nurturing thing you can do that's what I say yeah and I
23:57
[SPEAKER_03]: I've used this example because it's funny, you know, families that I speak to, you know, that when I worked in residential treatment, they're like, you know, 30 days, why aren't they done?
24:06
[SPEAKER_03]: When can they go back to children?
24:07
[SPEAKER_03]: They're going to be, you know, go back to this and that and the other.
24:10
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we'll just run this exercise, which isn't even an exercise.
24:14
[SPEAKER_03]: This is an example I always used.
24:15
[SPEAKER_03]: I had a young woman who was, um, she was diagnosed borderline in treatment.
24:21
[SPEAKER_03]: God, I loved her because every time she was going to run from treatment, which she's done in the past and her parents had been there right away with that first phone call.
24:29
[SPEAKER_03]: She would pull everybody in the treatment program and make an announcement.
24:32
[SPEAKER_03]: I am leaving.
24:33
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
24:34
[SPEAKER_03]: And make this huge announcement.
24:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Tell her parents, tell treatment.
24:37
[SPEAKER_03]: I am leaving.
24:38
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're like, okay, because she's older over 18.
24:42
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember this family worked with
24:46
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is the power of it, right?
24:48
[SPEAKER_03]: So we asked these parents.
24:50
[SPEAKER_03]: We said, she's about to walk off property.
24:53
[SPEAKER_03]: All we need you to do, baby step, for the next hour.
24:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Not more than that, an hour, do not pick up the phone and trust us.
25:03
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was only Zoom calls listening as they were, it was like,
25:07
[SPEAKER_03]: And we showed the parents, you know, this is why it takes, you know, longer.
25:11
[SPEAKER_03]: It's better sometimes because we're asking you to change your coping and how you do things.
25:15
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, we got them, they lasted just like an hour and a half.
25:21
[SPEAKER_03]: Still, nobody's picking up the phone to her and what was, it was a beautiful thing that happened.
25:25
[SPEAKER_03]: She, I mean, she called the treatment center and she goes,
25:29
[SPEAKER_03]: Did my parents come to an accident?
25:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Have you guys heard from them?
25:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Like why they won't pick up the phone and we were like they're busy.
25:35
[SPEAKER_03]: They're at work And they didn't give it any air Didn't give it any air and guess what she walked right back in She's okay, and we were like guys look and they were we were like all applauding.
25:46
[SPEAKER_03]: We're like see It's as baby steps of not tough love.
25:50
[SPEAKER_03]: It's loving differently
25:52
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's a reason, you know, like, even when my friends, a little one, when she was so struggling with anxiety and they were like in like Yale's was doing a trial on some new way to treat anxiety, mom and dad showed up and she left and called me afterwards and she was that was weird.
26:08
[SPEAKER_03]: I go, what she was not even about my daughter.
26:11
[SPEAKER_03]: They were wanting to work with all the families or parents on how to.
26:16
[SPEAKER_03]: react and work with somebody who is struggling with anxiety.
26:21
[SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean?
26:22
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think what needs to always be said more and more is that, you know, everybody's a big piece of mess, you know what I mean?
26:29
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's just about everyone's got to do some little shifts for different results, you know?
26:36
[SPEAKER_01]: We met a young guy, a new client to us and mom had had called us and she said, I can't hold a boundary.
26:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't do it.
26:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, a little and we got all the history blah blah blah.
26:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And we just said not or.
26:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if you can't say the words, it's okay if you can't hold the boundary, but just say that's happening.
27:00
[SPEAKER_03]: And she did it and I don't do that to me, art in the light.
27:04
[SPEAKER_03]: It's really watching.
27:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, what do you mean you have nothing to say right now.
27:09
[SPEAKER_01]: She couldn't, she couldn't do it.
27:11
[SPEAKER_01]: No, listen, you have to meet him where they're at.
27:13
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you do.
27:14
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I don't even remember we had a we had a mother.
27:17
[SPEAKER_03]: God bless her where her son had left treatment and he was heading home and our family liaison because they didn't have case management stayed on the phone with this mom until he showed up at the door.
27:27
[SPEAKER_03]: She is hiding behind a couch.
27:30
[SPEAKER_03]: not answering the door, and we're walking her through like what to say, and it was very heart for her, you know, and she couldn't do it.
27:37
[SPEAKER_03]: And she said she couldn't do it.
27:39
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're like, could you write them a text, could you send them a text, you know, or do something different.
27:43
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think the power also of the work that you guys do is so much for the client, but it's also so much what you're doing.
27:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and to finish the story, he did go to treatment that day.
27:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and she got her own help and she couldn't believe the change in him right on to successfully complete every step step down was there about a year nine months a year was was like taking people on tours of the place after you know nine months or so and she couldn't have imagined that that would be.
28:18
[SPEAKER_01]: an option for her that she could have that help say no still have this great relationship with them even more so it changed subsequently so does he you know right now i am the day my mom my mom passed away and mom is at like nearly five years ago
28:37
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember, and I talked about my mom along the show too, because she was the choose my everything.
28:43
[SPEAKER_03]: But I remember, you know, when I went to treatment, we didn't have case management.
28:47
[SPEAKER_03]: We didn't have any of that.
28:49
[SPEAKER_03]: but there was a point where her verb had things she was saying on the phone to me was changing where she was just like I'm really sorry you're struggling but why don't you get off the phone with me and go talk to these two friends of yours that you've really connected to and treatment that can relate to what you're going through or your counselor, you know what I mean?
29:08
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember going, are you being like who's talking to you?
29:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Why are you like this?
29:13
[SPEAKER_01]: like I'm not qualified.
29:16
[SPEAKER_03]: She said it.
29:16
[SPEAKER_03]: She goes, I, I, I am not experiencing what you're experiencing.
29:20
[SPEAKER_03]: So how am I going to be able to help you, right?
29:22
[SPEAKER_03]: And the power in that was, and she was getting her own help, right?
29:26
[SPEAKER_03]: Is on the day that she died, I remember I went into her office.
29:31
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just looked up and all I saw and I hadn't seen it before was this container of like courage to change and all these journals and all this it was a testament to the work that she had done and a friend of mine said it so beautifully and said see what that is that's somebody who decided to go do the work so then you could do the work so then you could show up for her when she needed to and and be there for each other and we even had a better relationship because of it plus it's inspiring if you're in treatment.
30:00
[SPEAKER_03]: And you, like, your mom goes, I got to go, I'm going to a meeting.
30:05
[SPEAKER_03]: You're like, oh, I guess I should go to, you know, because it's also like, all that there's that fear that the people are going to get to them.
30:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're not going to enable me anymore.
30:12
[SPEAKER_01]: We will put in like, who's great in washing you?
30:15
[SPEAKER_03]: I love to manipulate you.
30:16
[SPEAKER_03]: What are you talking about the, you know, but like the power and also like when, and I say this to parents and families,
30:24
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, we're asking these people in love ones to do all this change and it's also powerful for you to do your own work and also to take some steps too, because that's also going to inspire them to do that work for themselves, you know.
30:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And we start with families and you know have them work on the thinking, you know, like changing the thinking in regards to like.
30:48
[SPEAKER_01]: what their loved one getting help looks like, and the after effect, you know, they go back into a home where there's resentment, and there's all the triggers, you know, the success rate starts to tank.
31:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, right.
31:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all again, all behaviors, all patterns.
31:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
31:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you do what you know.
31:10
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly, you know, and what's comfortable, and I hate to say this, and it is in for everybody,
31:18
[SPEAKER_03]: families there, they like being staying the same with that.
31:23
[SPEAKER_03]: They don't want to change that, you know what I mean?
31:25
[SPEAKER_01]: It's what they know.
31:26
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a, you know, a comfort in, you know, there's what it, what do I say?
31:31
[SPEAKER_01]: There's their comfortable in the uncomfortableity.
31:36
[SPEAKER_03]: That's true.
31:36
[SPEAKER_01]: It's true.
31:37
[SPEAKER_01]: It's true.
31:38
[SPEAKER_03]: It's true.
31:39
[SPEAKER_03]: It's true.
31:43
[SPEAKER_03]: What happens when a client isn't following the plan and starts slipping back, doesn't want the help.
31:48
[SPEAKER_03]: You start to see, like, don't, don't, don't do that.
31:52
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, how do you balance accountability, compassion, respecting somebody's autonomy, but also, how do you approach setbacks without treating them as failures and that, you know, if you have a client that you're working with where you just see them
32:03
[SPEAKER_03]: progressing a bit like what do you guys do?
32:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, mistakes are an opportunity for change, right?
32:08
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the ability to start to have some insight of what's not working, what's working.
32:14
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an opportunity for growth.
32:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know, at.
32:19
[SPEAKER_01]: If somebody's, we look for willingness for some foremost, if somebody's not willing and they're just checking boxes, we a lot of times say we can't, you know, take your resources right now because we can't, we don't see a place where we're going to be successful on getting you on the other side of this where you have all of your autonomy, you are independent, you're doing your whole life like the life you've always wanted that we help you create.
32:43
[SPEAKER_01]: If it's it's not that are wrong.
32:45
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just timing right now.
32:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's not waste your resources and come to us when we can actually help you.
32:51
[SPEAKER_03]: These are this is why allegria collaborative or the real deal because that's what you know it's nice to hear when they're in our butts.
32:58
[SPEAKER_01]: We cannot do that.
32:59
[SPEAKER_01]: It's right.
33:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
33:00
[SPEAKER_03]: No.
33:01
[SPEAKER_03]: I gotta tell you, for me, the one I think of case management and this is the best way I can like, I grabbed my head as I, when I first started my job, I was getting physicians into treatment and pilots, right?
33:13
[SPEAKER_03]: And my favorite, my account was Delta, let's say, right?
33:16
[SPEAKER_03]: And Delta,
33:18
[SPEAKER_03]: It was, you know, with the pilots was this team of people that was working with the treatment center and the clinical team right and everybody was a team to help this person and that team from Delta was going to keep this individual on task accountable working with them for a few years and I remember saying every day a lot when I was at work I was like if every individual.
33:40
[SPEAKER_03]: Just had that people like an outside team inside team all working together and also like keeping tabs and making sure you're doing everything and helping you along this way, the outcomes would be so much higher in success for like just everyone getting healing, I think, because again, I think, I mean, I was just saying at this morning, you know, I'll sleep, I'll slip into a pattern more.
34:05
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, I don't feel good about myself or things are shitty and then I'm like,
34:09
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, I guess I didn't meditate today, I guess I need a meeting, but I'm not doing it, right?
34:14
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm just sometimes you just needs a little help with that.
34:21
[SPEAKER_02]: I used to say to families and clients that if you follow clinical recommendation and that could be in any capacity right management the clinicians we work with the team essentially or team at treatment facility if you follow clinical recommendation you will increase your chances of success for totally change.
34:41
[SPEAKER_02]: it's just totally.
34:42
[SPEAKER_01]: That's almost formulaic.
34:44
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's what it is.
34:46
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the one thing in this work we do where like everything's different and you don't know, but if you do follow clinical recommendation, like yeah, so many better.
34:56
[SPEAKER_03]: So many families.
34:59
[SPEAKER_03]: I would work with be like, well, I don't know what to do and this and that, I'm like it's easy.
35:02
[SPEAKER_03]: Just follow clinical recommendation.
35:04
[SPEAKER_03]: And then, you know, there's no fighting it and your, the outcomes are, you know, it's like the first time I went to treatment and they're said, Hannah, you need extended care.
35:12
[SPEAKER_03]: You need 30 days isn't enough.
35:14
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was just like, no, I'm going to do it my way.
35:16
[SPEAKER_03]: That was in the movie 28 days.
35:17
[SPEAKER_03]: Sandra Bullock did not go to extended care nor am I.
35:21
[SPEAKER_03]: And I did it my way.
35:23
[SPEAKER_03]: And went to Wales thinking I wouldn't get me trouble.
35:26
[SPEAKER_03]: And I
35:27
[SPEAKER_03]: fully it was off to the races again and really bad.
35:29
[SPEAKER_03]: And then finally, the second time around, I remember my mom distinctly saying, last time we listened to you, this time we're listening to them.
35:38
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I was like, well, how long do I have to stay?
35:40
[SPEAKER_03]: And she's like, how long's a piece of string?
35:42
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, that's a shitty answer.
35:45
[SPEAKER_03]: It, you know, um, last but not least, I want to end with this, because I love you guys and we could talk forever, but that couch is not comfortable.
35:52
[SPEAKER_03]: So we need to
35:57
[SPEAKER_03]: you have the opportunity to speak to it, I ask all my guests this, you have an opportunity to get on the phone with a family.
36:02
[SPEAKER_03]: You share a lot of information about what you do.
36:05
[SPEAKER_03]: What is like, if there's one thing, and I want to hear from both of you on this, if there's one thing of your parting words that you want this family to hear, if nothing else,
36:17
[SPEAKER_03]: I know, like, you can say, you know, we're here will always be here.
36:20
[SPEAKER_03]: Call us if you need this kind of thing when you're ready.
36:23
[SPEAKER_03]: But like, what is like, what is one take away that you wish you want your families to hear when they get off the phone with you?
36:30
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, I think you've come this far.
36:32
[SPEAKER_02]: You've come this far to this point.
36:34
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
36:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Why not try something different?
36:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
36:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
36:38
[SPEAKER_03]: That's great.
36:40
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how you're going to top that joy, go.
36:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
36:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to try.
36:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to try really hard.
36:45
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just letting them with the sense that they're not alone.
36:51
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is they're not bad.
36:53
[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't do bad things.
36:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
36:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
36:56
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's just a sick person.
36:59
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, their their child or loved one is in a bad person.
37:02
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just a sick person.
37:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
37:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And my hope is to shift that thinking from like they're bad bad bad bad.
37:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just sick.
37:10
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all right.
37:11
[SPEAKER_01]: So what do you do with somebody that's sick.
37:13
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's so many mothers I've talked to over the years and dads, but more I hear it like with the moms where they get on the phone and they're crying and they're like but they went to this school and were raised with this and that and like now look what's happening and I'm like no don't look at it like that.
37:29
[SPEAKER_03]: Like my old admissions director used to say it and I loved it.
37:33
[SPEAKER_03]: Going to treatment is an opportunity, you know, working with professionals like you and the families working with you guys.
37:42
[SPEAKER_03]: It's an opportunity for everyone to become the best versions of themselves.
37:46
[SPEAKER_03]: It's actually a cool thing, and it's a great experience.
37:50
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, this, like when I first got sober, they're like, you're going to be grateful to be an alcoholic.
37:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, hell, no, what am I going to be grateful to be an alcoholic?
37:59
[SPEAKER_03]: But now I can say, yeah, I'm really freaking grateful, but I am because today I can say because I did hit my bottom because my depression was as bad as it was where it was obvious, I mean, it wasn't functioning right and my addiction.
38:17
[SPEAKER_03]: it forced me in a way to start to do this work.
38:21
[SPEAKER_03]: And because I was able to then do this work, then I became like a better version of myself, where there's a lot of people walking this earth, you know, who have road rage and I'm thinking to myself, man, I always tell people like, you do this work now, like you're good, like,
38:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You gain insight, you know, you talk about all of your, you get, you get all of this out, you set yourself up right.
38:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
38:48
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when we have a moment of crisis, it is an opportunity to do the deep, deep work.
38:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Totally.
38:55
[SPEAKER_01]: People don't have that moment and so many people.
38:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's just not the need for that, but it doesn't mean that they haven't had problems in their life.
39:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just not this crazy moment of crisis where they have to stop.
39:07
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, and especially, you know, because I worked with adolescents for so long and parents were like, oh my god, I can't believe they're so young and we went to treatment.
39:13
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, hi, I wish that I had been intervened on when I was 16 because then I wouldn't have suffered and struggled for so long trying to self-medicate for my, my mental health.
39:25
[SPEAKER_03]: If somebody had actually said, hey, Hannah,
39:27
[SPEAKER_03]: You're just coping in a really bad way.
39:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Like we're going to show you how to cope in a healthy way plus maybe get you on some medication and show you some skills.
39:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Like then you're not going to, and I'm like we're giving, you know, people gifts in a way by doing this kind of work and the family.
39:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And you said it, people are suffering, you know?
39:45
[SPEAKER_01]: They have to stop and pause and take care of themselves.
39:48
[SPEAKER_03]: How young will you guys, I forgot, what age will you guys work with, how young?
39:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Depends on the case depends on the case.
39:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but you will add out a lesson.
39:57
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you have.
39:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
39:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
40:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're we're big on being the right fit.
40:03
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, there's there's people out there that specialize in adolescence and and we don't with this is the one shot for somebody to get their child help.
40:12
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
40:12
[SPEAKER_01]: We want to make sure that we're appropriate or somebody appropriate has got to.
40:21
[SPEAKER_03]: That's very live about you guys.
40:22
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, listen, this is Joy and Dia from Allegria, collaborative.
40:27
[SPEAKER_03]: All their information is going to be in the show.
40:29
[SPEAKER_03]: Now it's check them out, you guys.
40:32
[SPEAKER_03]: They're amazing.
40:32
[SPEAKER_03]: They do amazing work.
40:34
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm just super grateful you were on the show today.
40:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for tuning into this episode of Connect Call.
40:39
[SPEAKER_03]: As we conclude, remember that insights shared are intended for information on educational purposes only, and should not substitute professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
40:49
[SPEAKER_03]: We strongly recommend consulting a qualified medical health professional or health care provider for personalized advice tailored to your unique needs.
40:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Your mental health journey is important and having the right support is essential.
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[SPEAKER_03]: If you're experiencing a mental health crisis or require immediate assistance, please reach out to a mental health provider or emergency services in your area.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're grateful to have you as part of our community and your well-being remains our priority.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So follow us on social media to stay connected and be sure to catch one of our episodes on our YouTube channel.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're here to support you every step of the way.