Latest / Math Therapy / S4E07: Defying Asian math stereotypes w/ Steven Tran

Transcript

S4E07: Defying Asian math stereotypes w/ Steven Tran · Math Therapy

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: When you hear like natural talent, it's like obviously you're born with it, right?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, you you're born in your circumstances and stuff, but there's so much you can do with like any circumstance.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: The second I walked in, I don't know why, but I'll start choking up, right?
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, yo, what happened to my script?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't remember what you said exactly, but it's like, you usually don't cheat, so what's happening, right?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, I'm Vanessa Vicaria, aka the math guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas one problem at a time.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: All right, guys, today I'm talking to one of our very own tutors at the math guru, Steven Tran.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Steven is just like one of those tutors that really changes not just the way you see math, but the way you start looking at what you're capable of in your entire life.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited for you guys to hear our convo because we really get into it.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Steven sheds light on how growing up with Asian parents affected his perception of his own math ability and how that experience has informed his own approach to teaching his students math.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Also, a bit of a warning.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're likely well aware by now that I have no filter, but I actually think we might have broken a record for swear words in a math therapy episode.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: So earmuffs might be required for the kitties if they're around.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Steven, oh my god, oh my god, welcome to the podcast.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so flattered.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm kind of sweating a little bit from like like being a little anxious because like I've been such a fan for so long, and now it's like dreams come true.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: I already told you, so.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, okay, that is so flattering.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, we don't have many fans, so this is like a really huge deal.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: We're so popular.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, we are um a really famous popular podcast.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no, but for real, that is very flattering.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: We're so glad to have you.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: But okay, so you're a tutor for the math guru, and you are amazing, and everyone loves you.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we chat all the time on social media, and every two weeks I get a giant rant from you in my inbox about the fucked up state of education and what you're seeing with your students.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And first, I think we have to talk about how we met.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, I love this story.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: How we met.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so okay, so what were we on?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: This was like during COVID times when everyone was doing Instagram live.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like peak pandemic, yeah.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Peak pandemic, like IG lives, everyone is like, oh my god, join me on my life.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: And like, what were what were we even on?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what was it?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even remember.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: But it was um your buddy Anthony Morgan, my boss.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Anthony Morgan.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it was one of our games, one of our projects called Freestyle Social.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like the the Jubilee like middle ground, but we choose two polarizing topics.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: And the topic was it was the can you teach an old dog new tricks?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god! Okay, with can you teach an old dog new tricks?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: And Steven got on, guys, and started talking about how he worked at Best Buy, and he was like, Yeah, I actually don't think you can teach old.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Wasn't it like old people?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was like Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, all right.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, my job there is to be devil's advocate to stir some shit up, you know?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh right.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: And like, this was the only time where I was like pretty passionate about it.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, no, like I had so many old people come to the store, I'll teach them how to open internet, like explorer, and they'll forget the day after they'll come back in.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's what people do.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, then you came in and you're like, wait, didn't you guys teach them something though?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, damn.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Steven was trying to argue you can't teach people about technology, which is pretty fucked up considering what I told you guys to start, which is that he's now a tutor for the math guru.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we I can't remember what happened, but we got into a bit of beef.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh my god, like ever all the work I do is about how you can teach anyone anything.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: And Steven sort of, as he's doing now, started backpedaling a little bit.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know how this happened, but I think I think you emailed me after being like, I would love to work for you.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, didn't you just say that you don't think you can teach people things related to math?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: You see, you see, I was like, I you changed my mind.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: I was open to my mind being changed and stuff.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: You feel me?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that is actually that's the lesson we learned here, you know?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's true.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that is a great quality of a teacher.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I will say, Steven is one of our best tutors.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: He cares so much about his students, he is always finding a way to teach every type of learner and like honestly, like you never stop.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like you've had students before where we've gone through 10 different methods of ways you're trying to get to them and you're still at it.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say that you were just trying to stir shit up, and I don't even think you believed that in the first place.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, but it is kind of a funny story.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, so here we are now, and you've become one of our most passionate tutors because you not only listen to the podcast and care about the stuff in your own life, but I think you are a person who's open to their mind being changed.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: I actually think that's one of the greatest qualities of an educator because you have to be able to see that something you're doing is no longer working.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you gotta pivot here and there, right?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you've got to pivot.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, the favorite pandemic word.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you've got it, you've gotta pivot.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and with tutoring, you've got to pivot on a student by student basis.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's not even like you're like, okay, this year I'm gonna teach differently.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Every hour you're teaching differently.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh God, yeah, yeah.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Not even just like every hour, sometimes like every like 10 minutes, right?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: As you're noticing, as you're reacting to what your students are doing.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: And also, guys, Steven teaches, you've been tutoring for us virtually.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: So he's like really like pioneering, like, you know, engaging online learning, making sure his students are engaged for an entire hour.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that's hard work, but I've also noticed through our email exchanges that you're really starting to notice um you know, not only what your students are going through, but you're starting to see what the rest of your family is going through, and you're starting to parse that together with your experience.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanna just ask you to like kind of as a starting point, what was your relationship to math growing up?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh god, okay.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty complicated actually.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: So growing up, let's see.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm gonna go way back, like kindergarten, like kindergarten, grade school and stuff.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I wasn't like super smart or anything.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I know, I know there's pretty like like it's a weird definition here, but I'm gonna say smart as in like good grades and stuff, right?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, yeah.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: And like I wasn't like, you know, the standard of like East Asian, Asian um kids and stuff, you gotta be good at arithmetics, gotta be good at like everything pretty much, right?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was deciphering government like documents and translating them from a parents since like the age of four.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: So like you gotta do like everything pretty much, right?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I wasn't that.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: I like math wasn't as like a C or a B on report cards and stuff, which yeah, I'm getting there and stuff, but I wasn't like ever passionate about it, right?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then like something fucking clicked in like grade eight, I think, grade seven or eight, straight A's across the board.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like after puberty, straight A's across everything.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like my I think from eight till twelve, I have not gotten one single B on a report card.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, wow.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then you weren't changing anything you were doing, you were just going along your normal business.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was just limited stuff, right?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I got super lucky with that.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: So the math in high school, like you do an example, and on the test is the example, but different numbers, right?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So like I was good at that.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Copy paste and stuff, right?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: But the biggest thing was that I did Kumon.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not this is no no like company slandering here, but I I did Kumon.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Here we go since like grade two, I think, right?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I was a I was pretty fast at my arithmetics, like timetables, boom, mad minute, boom.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Not like that's pretty easy, right?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: But then like when it got to high school, I dropped Kumon in like grade 10.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking, like, yo, my parents paid thousands of dollars for this tuition for Kumon, and I dropped in in a year within high school, and like I just carried on from there.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like, um, I hate using this word, but like that's that just like really weird, like natural talent or affinity that I had just to like do good.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: I just somehow got it from there.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: I really don't know how it worked.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: So um, that's what it was like growing up.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I got really lucky that like I did pretty well in in the end.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: But uh I don't know how it works.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, so okay, so first of all, I want to ask you when you just said you hate using the word natural talent, why do you hate that?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh god, because um, like when when when you hear like natural talent, it's like obviously you're born with it, right?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And like when you're you're like, yes, you you're born in your circumstances and stuff, but there's so much you can do with like any circumstance.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And like you can't just limit to yourself with how you're born, right?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like I was born in a pretty bad area in in Hamilton and in Toronto as well, and like my parents didn't let that limit them whatsoever for like making money, being successful, being known in the community and stuff, right?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: And like I just can't let let it work like for my end either, you know.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, I wanted to say something quickly just when you said that, because we actually haven't talked about that a lot on the podcast, and I love that you brought brought it up.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: And what I always say, because people will often ask me, and you know, this parents will often call us and say, Oh, my son or my daughter is so naturally talented about and you're like, I think what it is is okay, you can't deny we're all born with certain attributes, but it's the emphasis we place on nature versus nurture that's the real fuck up.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because in most cases, nurture actually vetoes nature.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, like you can do things nature wise, right?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hours of practice, right?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can do stuff to counteract um nature.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay, so yes, great, okay.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so this is so interesting.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: You had that relationship with math.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: You had mentioned um kind of in passing, you talked about being Asian and you were like, oh, you know, like da-da-da.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Can you like tell us a bit more about that?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what did you mean?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to put words in your mouth.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and as a South Asian, you know, I have some feelings about it, but I want to hear from you.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: God, okay, growing up, uh like you know the usual like being compared and stuff with like your cousins and stuff, right?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Getting like A's and everything, they're playing piano 25 hours a day, studying for 25 hours a day when they're in fucking like grade eight or something, right?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing is, I got compared to a fucking undergrad student when I was in middle school.
• 10:00
  unknown: Right.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'll tell my mom something.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: She was like, Oh yeah, your cousin, like, like blah blah blah blah blah, right?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, yo, she's like double my age.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then when um about like no no hate on him.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: I love that guy so much, he's like my brother figure, pretty much.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, sure.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: We don't even know who you're talking about, it's fine.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and like he he he he became a dentist, right?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: And like that's a that's a big thing dentist, doctor, lawyer, engineer.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, and then uh this was about in high school, grade 11, grade 10, 11.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're like, oh, you like he like he became a dentist and everything, and then now they're comparing me even harder.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, yo, like, chill.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't told the university yet.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: But then it wasn't until I said I'll become a doctor.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're doing?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Are you going to be a doctor right now?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm uh I'm applying into medicine.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: I have a funny story about this, actually.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but okay, fine.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, big reveal on the podcast, anyways.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, fuck it.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be a doctor, right?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, oh yes, nice, nice, good, good.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: You're getting A's, you know how to talk to people, and you want to be a doctor.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Good.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then they're writing off of that, like, off of that high for so long, even till now.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, they love saying that, like, I want to be a doctor, he's starting so hard and stuff, right?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: And like, do you feel pressure?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, doesn't that make you feel pressured?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: What if you change your mind?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh god.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: The second I said that, I'm like, backups, backups, backups, so what are my backups?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: You feel me?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: And like, even until like now, until recently, like I I have these talks with with like my therapist, and I was like, yo, I don't know what to do if I like fuck up, you know?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's funny because it wasn't until grade grade 10.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, this is this is my deep dark secret.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: You ready?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's hear the deep dark secret because I want to hear what's going on here.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this sounds like you're being really chill about it, but this sounds like a lot of pressure that you're like, oh, and then I just become and be decided to become a doctor, and my parents finally approved of me.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, are you okay?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: What's going on?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so here's my I'm gonna name drop, okay?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because this person is very important to me, literally a father figure to me.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: So his name is Mr.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Mr.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Logan from um Mr.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Logan, okay.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Mr.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Logan, right?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: This this dude, Mr.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Logan.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: So we had a student teacher, right, teaching grade 11 trig, and grade 11 trig, I had a lot of trouble with it, right?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: But then I still I was able to study and everything, and it did pretty well, right?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And by studying me like an hour, probably.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then, like, he he had his test and everyone did really bad besides me, right?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, okay, cool.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing is that I thought I was gonna do really poorly going into the test, right?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now, a student who wants to get 100% on every test, and they think they're gonna do bad on a test.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: What do they do?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna cheat, right?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: So the first time I was trying to cheat, this is what I did.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: The back of my calculator had that case and stuff, and I was like, you know what?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna I'm a Soka Toa, blah blah blah blah and shit.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone knows that people check that.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: What are you talking about?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing is, Mr.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Logan never checked the calculators, he never tested, he never checked anything, right?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, he's he's not gonna check anything, right?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: So then the student teacher lays out all the tests, Mr.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Logan walks down the aisle, and I'm like, no.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yo, I started sweating, and I was like, I'm about to cry right there, right?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: So he picked up my calculator, looked at the back of it, looks at me, puts it down, and sits down, right?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, fuck.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm screwed.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I finished the test.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, hold on a second.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Where was your calculator?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Did he take it?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Nope, left it on my desk, and he just walked back to his desk.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: So did you use it?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I used it.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't use the back though.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was too scared to turn that shit around.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Smart.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: But like I kept it like on the desk too, so he I couldn't pick it up.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing is that like I was like, damn.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, you know what?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Tomorrow I'm gonna give him a sob story and be like, yo, Mr.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Logan, times are tough, and you know, like I really want to do well, so I uh I hope like I can do like a retest or something, right?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: That was my plan going into it.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, yeah, I'm I I'm that guy, you know, I can I can put it up pretty well.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: The second I walked in to his room, I I don't know why, but I started choking up, right?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, yo, what happened to my script, right?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: And he just told he he I I don't remember what he said exactly, but it's like you usually don't cheat, so what's happening, right?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, and I just started fucking crying.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: I just started crying right there, yo.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, you know what?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I spilled like my whole life story to him.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: And he's just sitting there, like, he I think he eventually like teared up too and stuff, because he has kids too.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: And like, yeah, we just had like a really big heart-to-heart moment there, and from there, like, man, like I love the guy.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, how did that change things for you?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Did that change the way you saw math?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Did it change the way you saw yourself?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what was that moment about?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: That moment was about like because we talked about like who were you, like, who were you meant to be versus who do you want to be and stuff, right?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: And like I felt like I had to be this, like, like 100% student, do this, this, and that, and you know, you know, the general like stereotype, right?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: But then it's like he didn't get the joy from me getting 100, he got the joy from me working out problems with our class and stuff, right?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, right, we'll you'll be like fucking screaming as shit when we like solved a problem.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because we have some like pretty crazy, like um, like problems to solve and stuff, and like that's the stuff that he digged.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't realize that, right?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know that.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then I was like, huh, maybe math is more than just like press yourself into a calculator and got an answer, right?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's definitely more than that, obviously, right?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's more of like a science, more like an art, more like a language, more like anything besides like just arithmetics and stuff, right?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy how much pressure, like not only you put on yourself, but it sounds like your parents put on yourself, and then there are all those cultural norms embedded into it that clearly like end up being so emotional.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: And like in your case, obviously it led to a specific outcome, and you literally burst out crying because you were trying to do something illegal in order to get that math mark.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it does present that way for so many students.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that you and I talk about this a lot.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: You have so many students that are anxious, and you talk about how you see your siblings being treated when it comes to discipline and motivation in math.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to share a bit of that?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you do you think that like you I what like I want to talk about how you were talking about like, you know, sort of the Eastern approach to math?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are your thoughts?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we're it's it's kind of funny because we think we we have a lot of complex like thinking systems and stuff, but then when it comes to like um math, science and what do you mean?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Who has complex thinking systems?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like just like just like Eastern like culture, like Confucius, like Buddhism and stuff, right?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: But when it comes to teaching your kids something, we're really fucking simple, right?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: If your kid likes video games and he's doing bad in school, the mom will be like, oh, just turn off the game, silly, you'll do well, right?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's obviously way more complex than that, right?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I when it comes to especially like first generation kids like myself and like my siblings and stuff, we get that pressure that like you have to do really good to make sure that you make up for your parents like sacrificing something, right?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And like that's also another pressure.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, yeah, they worked so hard to come here, so I gotta do good.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Even if they don't say jack shit to me, I'm still gonna feel that way, right?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: And but the worst thing is is that like the way that we teach and stuff, like they used to get spanked, we don't, and stuff.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it's like Boomer versus Gen Z, pretty much, right?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: They get spanked, we don't get spanked, they get cursed at we don't and stuff.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: But then when they try to do it to us, we were totally repulsive to it, right?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: We're like, no, you like we were super rebellious about it and stuff, right?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it's just there's so many things that that just don't connect with each other.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, I think it's just that like with Eastern families, they they think that a lot of the external cues are the reasons why the kid is having a lot of like internal like thought, you know.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, what's one example?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Video game for sure.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: I play a fuck ton of games and stuff, and when I did proli and a test, they're like, You're playing too many games.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Turn it on, you're done, right?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I see.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of being like, oh, maybe you're feeling anxious, or maybe there's something.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I see what you're saying.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually really interesting because that's true.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of think about that a lot too.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, my dad, like, came here from India, and there was always that idea of like just working hard and getting good marks.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, my dad was deaf.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: I love my dad, everyone, but he was definitely the dad of like, oh, you got 98%.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what happened to that other two percent?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I was always compared to my cousins who like, you know, same thing, like doctors, lawyers, this and that, blah, blah, blah.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like always made to feel kind of weird because those weren't my aspirations.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I was like, oh, but like I want to be a rock star.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And they were like, we're not hearing you, right?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we're just gonna be a denial of that.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Or like, you can be a rock star as long as you as long as you get 100% on your math test.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: As long as you get like a PhD or something after your PhD, right?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, okay, so this is like super, super interesting.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, like, I could talk about this with you forever, but I want to ask, just kind of flip the switch a little and talk about the students that you tutor, like when talking about that, you know, you clearly can see that you can see it's not just external stuff.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: When your students aren't doing well, can you tell me some of the things you see that come out with regards to internal conflicts or internal struggles?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are things that you're trying to help your students work through in order to heal their relationship with math?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the first thing for me is like I'm really big on building that relationship first because um sometimes I have that inner Asian parent in me where I just want to ask, I want to ask direct question to get a direct answer, right?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I've I I really try my best to build a relationship, not just with my students, but with people in general.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: So um, when it comes to my students and stuff, after I built that relationship with them, after they're cool with me talking about stuff, even sometimes after you solve a question, I'm not randomly like like like what's up, like what's going on and stuff, and like how's life and such, right?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of catch them off guard a little bit.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: But then some of the cues that I see as well is like um hesitancy for sure.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: And like that's the biggest thing I think that's blocking them from like liking math in general, is that like they're really hesitant to say, like, oh, what about this, right?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: You hear a lot of students saying that, like, oh, I don't like math because there's only one right answer, right?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And like, yeah, sometimes I answer keys, there's only one answer, right?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: But then, like, there's so many ways that to think of a question, and so many ways to like probe a certain way to think or whatever, and that's what I love doing.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: I love being like, they're like, Oh, can we try?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wait, no, I don't think that's gonna be the right answer.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, yo, just say it.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's like, what do you think is gonna what do you think we should do here?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Should we square both sides?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Should we exponentiate it or something, right?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Trying to probe these different methods that they had in the back of their mind and giving them kind of like the the hope of like, oh wait, someone wants to listen to my ideas and stuff, right?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, and I love that.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, someone wants to hear my ideas.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think often young people feel like, you know, people like so many grown-ups in their lives make them feel like their opinions are not important, right?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, I think that's a super nice way to put it.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to ask you this like, why, because students do say that a lot, right?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like math because there's always there's only one right answer.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think it is that they're actually afraid of?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, who cares if there's only one right answer?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I think with especially with my age, is marks, right?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Especially with first generation students.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think we can all connect that we want to get 100, right?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: You can you can kind of tell with like the inflation of marks um coming around, like when I went to high school, like everyone's getting a hundreds.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: My average, the average mark in my chem class was like a 90, right?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: And like you're not good, you're not trying to see how you can think about chemistry in a different way.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you're thinking about how to get the fucking right answer.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: How can I get 50 grams instead of trying to think of like how could I get there, right?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess that can A be boring and be really feel threatening.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you're almost competing with your like it's always a competition instead of an activity.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Always, yeah.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And like sometimes it gets super cutthroat, you know?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, oh my god, I could talk to you forever.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: We have to go to our final two questions, but I do have a question I need to ask first because this is like really bugging me.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: When did you decide you wanted to be a doctor?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: So like last week.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: I said it, I actually said it in high school, but actually believed in myself pretty recently.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I've been studying for the MCAT for a little while now, and like I'll be honest, recently I've been kind of been like having these like mental breakdowns, like fuck, like if I can't do this stupid test, I can't be a doctor or whatever, right?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: But when I think back to experiences with like my teacher, Mr.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Logan, or even like some of my like I hate saying this, but like business partners are friends, even.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Mentors and stuff.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: I can name off like two or three people right now that have been very influential with me.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Especially um this one dude, his name's Cam.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: He used to volunteer and work at Vision of Science.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: And like this guy, he he put so much faith into me.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, why the fuck are you trusting me with this like position?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a longer story, but he trusted me.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: I love Cam.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: And like, yeah, and we we fucking love Cam and stuff because he believed in me.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I never had anyone that truly believed in me.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like me, not like not.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to be a doctor though.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, yes, I want to be a doctor.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: You're not just doing it to impress your parents.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, 100%.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: And do you think that if you decided to change your mind, like it would be cool, or do you think your parents would freak out?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: So now my parents are like, yeah, it's it's okay if you like like you change your route or whatever.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think they finally understand like the struggles of getting to med school.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: But um for me, like I would not, I would not be happy with myself if I didn't at least try, you know?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because um now's a good time to give up because times are getting rough, but like you know what I mean.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: So inspirational.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, final two questions.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: If you were gonna pick one thing, how do you think math should be taught differently in schools?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Get rid of the answer key, in my opinion, right?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, what?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Get rid of the key.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Hold on.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Get rid of the answer key.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: This is an unpopular opinion with me.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: Get rid of the answer key so students don't think there's only one right answer.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I understand.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but what but what if they're doing their homework?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: What and they they do the they do 10 questions in a row wrong using the same method.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, you know, those like solution manuals versus like answers in a textbook.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's more solution textbooks than answers in the back, you know?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Fine.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, you won me back.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: That was gonna be a slippery slope there.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Math pun intended.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just like I like university now because they show you directly where you can get marks for your method, right?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like you like you have a whole answer and stuff, and there's like on the side, it's like one mark for like like throwing in X and one other mark for subbing in this place.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay, okay.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: I do like that.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually why I kind of like apps like photo math sometimes.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: I have like, you know what I mean?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so okay, so that's interesting.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: I really believe that students need to have access to the answers in some form because it drives me nuts to think of a student going along, spending an hour doing their homework.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you know how sometimes you get 10 questions, it's the same thing.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like how to complete the square 10 times in a row.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: And they make one fucking mistake, they never catch it because they never check the answers.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, so you spend an hour doing homework, but you were doing it all wrong the entire time because you never checked the answer to see if you were doing it right.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I need an answer key, but I like that it's a solution key.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's way better because sometimes they're just like, fuck, I'm doing it wrong and I'm just gonna stop because I don't know why.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: This way they could look.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Final question, Steven.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Final question.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say to someone who was like, Steven, really cool chat, but like I'm just not a math person?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: I okay, this is this is my favorite thing to do.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I I like I pull off the whiteboard, pull up my phone to draw on something, right?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I love this example.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: It came from my high school, other high school teacher, Mr.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Jacob.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Love the guy.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is what he did all the time.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Starts off with There's so many shout-outs in this podcast.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: I've been waiting to shout, I've been I have a fucking list of people to shout out right now, but I'm missing one person, but it's okay.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: He starts off every calculus class with like an inquiry question, right?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: And this guy, he just drew a triangle, square, and a pentagon.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, what the fuck are we gonna do with this, right?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then he asked, what's the pattern here, right?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I would do the same thing.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: I start off with almost like 90% of my students, let me have a triangle, a square, and a pentagon.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: What is the pattern, I know the pattern.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: What's the pattern?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: That the sides increase by one every time.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: The sides increase one every time.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: What if I made it to a hexagon, a heptagon, an octagon, right?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: What if hexagon, heptagon, octa.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say I made N infinite.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: What would it look like?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: What the what would the shape look like?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the shape looked like if if a circle! A fucking circle, right?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god! A fucking circle.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: I I was like really nervous there.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I don't, but no, a circle, a circle.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's so cool.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: So and then I asked I feel really smart.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like people must feel smart when they like it.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: For you calculus.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: You just yes, started calculus, right?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, because okay, this is good.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is good shit.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and like people are I I tell like my my eighth graders this, and like, wait, I did calculus and I can't do Pythagorean theorem.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, we'll get there, but like you can think mathematically, right?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know how to think mathematically.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, this is really, really odd.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like this is that we should stop the interview right now.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: We peeked.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Leave it at that.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Leave it at that.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: We peaked.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: That is really cool.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: I fucking love that.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: I love the idea of just giving.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean, I've always said this, but I love this example you used of giving people opportunities to find the mathematician within, right?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: To like undoubtedly be like, I just did math and I just actually did calculus.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: You are an amazing tutor.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: You are such an inspirational person.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to shout out the final person?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Who are they?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: And is it relevant?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it's relevant.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Anthony Morgan, my my Anthony!
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Anthony lit my arm on fire once.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: He lit my entire arm on fire.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: This guy does the craziest shit all the time, but I love the guy.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: He does the craziest shit.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so cute.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: Send us a picture of you and Anthony, and then I'll post my picture of me and Anthony, and then I'll post a picture of me and you, and it'll be like three of us.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Steven, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: It was amazing having you.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, thank you.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: I love this, yeah.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, bye!
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, okay, I don't know about you guys, but that hit hard.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's just amazing what a difference it can make to have someone believe in you.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't just apply to math.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think today I'm gonna make it my mission to let someone know I believe in them.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe we can all do that.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's just an idea, but if you do it, tell me how it goes.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And even though I may not have met you, like specifically, I want you to know that I genuinely believe that you can overcome any challenge in self-confidence or perceived ability you might struggle with, just like Steven did.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: If something in this episode inspired you, please tweet us at Math Therapy.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you can also follow me personally at the Math Guru on Instagram or Twitter.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vicaria, produced by Sabina Wex, and edited by David Kochberg.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Our theme song is Waves by my band Goodnight Sunrise.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please share this podcast and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: Those things actually make such a difference.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: I am determined to change the culture surrounding math, and I need your help.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: So please spread the word.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's all for this week.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Stay tuned for our next episode out next Thursday.