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Trademarks Explained: When to File, What It Costs & How to Protect Your Brand · Pitch to Product

• Joey Vitale: we heard one too many horror stories of a client that didn't know how big of a deal this was, and then they got hit with a cease and desist letter and were forced to rebrand. Jack: Welcome back to the Pitch to Product podcast. I'm Jack Dalton, Business Development Manager at 52 Launch, and I'll be your host today. I'm joined by Joey Vitale: Joey Vitaly, trademark attorney. Jack: Yes, founder of Indie Law. They have filed over 2,000 trademarks, so they know what they're doing over there. somebody that 52 Launch has worked with for a little while now and experience has been excellent so far. So Joey, happy to have you here. Thank you for the time. Joey Vitale: It's a blast and an honor to be here, Jack. Thanks for having me. And and I know we both know how important it is for your audience to understand the importance of this stuff and the the consequences if they don't think about this ahead of time. Jack: yeah. we're gonna get into that. And on that note, today we're gonna be doing a deeper dive on trademarks. So we're gonna be covering how they fit into your business plan, when it makes sense to get one, how you actually use a trademark. And then of course we'll cover the common, how much they cost, how long does it take to get one, all that good stuff and more. So stay tuned for that. Awesome. So kick it right off here. I have heard trademarks defined as a source identifier for a particular good or service. That's not the most accessible definition. So I'm wondering before we get into the the weeds, if you could kind of define what a trademark is for us. Joey Vitale: Yeah. Jack, I love that we're starting here because I've given so many presentations on webinars and in front of people all around trademarks. And the first few years that I was doing these talks, I was really struggling. I would get to the slide of here's what a trademark is. And I could see people falling asleep in the back of the room. Jack: Yeah. Joey Vitale: I found that just giving the definition, which was accurate, Jack, isn't very helpful for people. So instead, what I I like to do is this, and you guys just know that I'm not putting Jack on the spot here. we didn't talk about this ahead of time, but Jack, I believe that this is a a softball question for you. If you had to guess, what company do you think owns the phrase akuna matata as a trademark? Jack: Ha ha ha ha. Would that be Disney or DreamWorks? Joey Vitale: Disney is correct. Yes. So what made you guess Disney? Jack: That's where it came from. Joey Vitale: Yeah, so when you hear Akuna Matata, you think of Lion King and you know that Lion King is owned by Disney. That thought process is what makes a trademark a trademark. So anytime that we as consumers see or hear a phrase or a logo or something, and it makes us think that there's a particular brand behind it, that thought process is so it's called source identification, and it's a sign of a trademark being a trademark. Jack: Right. Right. I like that. Joey Vitale: So it's not people talk about getting your brand name trademarked and kind of filing for this process. And that's kind of true, but a trademark isn't something that you like file for and get really. What what you're really doing procedurally when you're acquiring trademark rights is you're saying, look. Nike has already done the work for branding so that when you hear just do it, you think of Nike. So when you're when Nike files for trademark protection for just do it, they're not saying like a domain name, we want to buy the rights to just do it. They're saying we now have built a track record or are building a track record of this thought process that's happening with customers. And we're protecting that thought process. Jack: Right. Yeah, that makes that's that's a great example. It makes a lot of sense. yeah, absolutely. So on that note, and that's those are some interesting examples. When do you think it makes sense for people to start thinking about a trademark? And I'll kind of start with with how we usually think about it from the you know our sort of limited perspective, where we're mostly bringing consumer products to market. Under very small new brands. And generally what we advise our clients to do is if they haven't to go create a business entity, either an LLC, S corp, C Corp, something that is separate from their personal identity. And then as soon as they've decided on a name that they really like, they should go find out whether it's trademarkable. And then from there, if it is, they should trademark it pretty much right away. Joey Vitale: Yeah, so I'm gonna flip the script on this question a bit because a lot of people they think of, you know, when should I trademark from a place of like, hey, I I've got a name or I'm thinking about a name. I kind of wanna vet and validate first that it's that it's gonna be strong or the product's gonna be successful before I go through the process of claiming it through trademarks. I wanna encourage all of you to think about this. From a completely different place because trademarks are not about claiming what you want to use like a domain name. You really need to be thinking in the first place about not accidentally infringing on the rights of others. Most trademark applications actually get denied. Over half a million applications get filed every single year. And the biggest reason for a refusal is that it's too similar to another trademark. Jack: Right. Well Joey Vitale: That's why the most valuable thing that we do is a really comprehensive search to make sure that you are having a successful path to getting registered. I say that because naming and trademarking, there's a lot of it depends to a strategy. But I I will say that the best businesses that we work with that have, you know, the background of having established business owners doing this stuff. Jack: Mm-hmm. Joey Vitale: larger businesses with larger budgets. The best practice here is to come to a trademark attorney or a trademark law firm with the list of potential names. So that before you find that one name that you love that you start getting emotionally married to, we can help you whittle that list down to what's most likely to call dibs on as a trademark. Jack: Yeah. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I think that's what we try to do. We always come up with a list of names and encourage people to whittle it down to a few. because there is that phenomenon where people get really attached to a certain name and it's almost like, well, I can't trademark it. I don't care. I'm using it anyway. It it resonates with me, it resonates with my brand, it resonates who with who I think is going to purchase this product. But Absolutely. And that's a great segue into you know my one of my next questions, which is I think there's a a common I don't know if I'd call it a misconception, but there's a belief that you go out and you file for a trademark and then your brand is protected. Nobody else can use your name for similar goods and services. It's you're all set. But Just the existence of a trademark doesn't really stop other people from using your name, right? You have to actually do something about it and somehow become aware of them using your name. You know, obviously, if you've got, and maybe you could cover this in this answer as well, if you've got that R in a circle next to your brand name on Amazon, certainly that's dissuading anyone else from using a similar name. But Joey Vitale: Yeah. Jack, there's there's a lot of stuff that we can get into. I I wanna start here first. I wanna give you all some context for why I even do what I do. Because before I was a trademark lawyer specifically, I was just a business lawyer. And if you looked at our website at the time, it kind of looked like a Starbucks menu. There were a bunch of different offerings on our site. Jack: Yeah. Perfect. Joey Vitale: Eventually we took everything off the menu except for trademarks. And it's because we heard one too many horror stories of a client that didn't know how big of a deal this was, and then they got hit with a cease and desist letter and were forced to rebrand. I say that to start this, what might be paragraphs long response, J Jack, because I like thinking about trademark protection as playing defense and offense. Jack: Yeah. Joey Vitale: First thing we have to do is play a strong defense so that you never get blindsided with the cease and assist letter yourself. Jack: Absolutely. Joey Vitale: Once that's in place, then you can optionally play offense as much as you want to. But you're right, Jack. When it comes to playing offense and enforcing your rights against others, trademarks don't enforce themselves. So just because your trademark is registered, that does a lot in helping you play defense and avoiding a cease and desist letter, being forced to rebrand, which could cost $200,000. But There's there's that offensive strategy that will take extra time and effort and budget on your end if you really want to be protecting your brand. Jack: Right. Yeah, that was a great reframing of the question, which was maybe a bit too broad, but Joey Vitale: It was a great question. And you also brought up the circle R. So so real quick on that, there's really two different layers of trademark rights in the US, two main layers. one is called common law trademark rights, and the other one is registered trademarks. I've got pretty young nieces and nephews, and so sometimes I try and test my my marketing with them to see if they understand it. And so I like to use this metaphor with with them of a house versus a fence. Jack: Right. Joey Vitale: And just by building your house, just by technically using your brand name, you do get automatic trademark rights. They're called common law trademark rights. And they give you exclusive rights regionally to your business. So back in the day when you just wanted to protect your brick and mortar pizza shop from having a a copycat across the block, common law trademarks were sufficient. But You don't really have a strong fence around the house until you register your trademarks. That beefs up your exclusive rights to federally it's like an electric fence saying anything that's too close to this is is gonna infringe it. And com the cool thing about common law rights is they're free to claim, and that's what that TM symbol is short for. So The good news for all of you and the quick tip is you can slap that TM symbol no matter where where you'd like to put it, you can put it for free. And most business owners don't know the difference, so it can be a strong deterrent, but you do not want to rest too easy until you get that circle R secured. Jack: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think a lot of people don't know that that you can just start using the TM logo as soon as you're doing business under the name of your business, which is I've had a lot of clients be pretty surprised to find that out. because it's yeah, I think people think it means a little bit more than it does, but then there's the circled circled R. So yeah, I'll I'll let you explain. Joey Vitale: No, well, well, the only thing that I wanna just add to that to help clarify things for your audience, Jack, is that many businesses, many business owners, just because of the way that we see things in the public, and especially I think your audience, Jack, there's a lot of talk that we hear just as consumers about patents and patent pending. Patent pending means something in the legal world. There's really no such thing as trademark pending. And we sometimes hear people say that because it just sounds like it should be right. But while you can and should be applying for a trademark registration, having that application be pending like doesn't really give you any rights. There's no special symbol for that. So I just wanted to clarify that distinction in case that trips anybody up. Jack: Yeah, absolutely. So the TM you can use, you know, from whenever you start getting into business. And then the R you have to actually have a registered mark, correct? On the brand name. So there's a couple different types of trademarks. Now might be a good time to kind of cover maybe types of trademarks might be the wrong word. All right, I'll let you explain. But there are multiple different things that you can trademark. Joey Vitale: Yes. So and and feel free to add to this list with what you're thinking, Jack. the the common types of trademarks, and you can really trademark anything if you get creative, but usually we're talking business names, logos, slogans. Again, it's anything that has that akuna matata effect. when I see that thing, I think of this brand. So some brands are big and creative enough to trademark even a color. Jack: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Joey Vitale: So Tiffany blue, that shade of blue, is trademarked for Tiffany. And what like Reese's orange is is trademarked that orange color. You can even, if you really want to be creative, trademark a smell. And I I love this example. So Verizon, they ended up not doing it, but they were testing a certain scent that they were gonna put into all of their stores. So it smelled like a Verizon store. Jack: Yeah. Right. That's the one I know. Joey Vitale: And they actually trademarked that smell. Jack: I like that. That's that's that's good. I think I saw a news headline recently that Taylor Swift was trademarking her voice. Joey Vitale: So that is a really great thing to bring up. and I what I will say is if one of the coolest and most helpful things that you can do to be protected is just to do what Taylor Swift does legally. Like if you go on the trademark office and you see the types of things that she's applying for, it's it's a really strong example of just the best practice. in terms of her trademarking her voice, Jack: Yeah. Joey Vitale: This is something that a lot of celebrities are doing right now to try and combat AI. And what's really interesting is it's so new that none of these, to my knowledge, have been accepted yet. They haven't been denied. They're just so new that they're still pending. And even if and when they get registered, I think it's gonna take a couple of court cases to figure out okay, does that actually limit what Jack: Okay. Right. Joey Vitale: A Claude or a Chat GPT can do. Jack: Yeah. Yeah, that is that is certainly interesting. I'm I'm not gonna claim to know what a trademark application on a voice would look like, but Joey Vitale: Very interesting. It's it's hard to know what you're looking at when you're just reviewing the the PDF version of that application. Jack: Yeah. to get into what trademark applications look like, I think another question that I get relatively frequently is, you know, you're telling me I should go speak to a trademark attorney. What do I need to have for that conversation in order for it to be productive? So, you know, what are the questions that you need a client to be able to answer about their brand when you're preparing to file an application? Joey Vitale: Mm. Really good questions. W And I want to be clear the way that I that I answer this. It's really important for us to understand what your business does. Because there are 45 different classes or categories that exist with the trademark office. And I actually think that this is really genius. The trademark office has accomplished something like beautiful here, where they've taken anything that you can imagine selling. And it can fit under one of these 45 different classes. And so we have to be c clear on what it is that you sell so that we know what class and what description to use so that your trademark application doesn't get denied. The asterisk that I that I want to add here, and this throws a lot of clients off because they tell us what we do or what they do. And then when we show them the application, they're like, Were you not listening? This is not at all what I told you that I did. Jack: That's pretty cool. Joey Vitale: Just be prepared here because again, most trademark applications get denied. The trademark office is looking for any reason to deny your application. So one thing that a strong trademark law firm will do is we won't just take your definition of what you do at face value. We'll we look to already approved descriptions. And we use pre-approved descriptions as much as possible. Jack: Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Joey Vitale: So the trademark office is likely to accept it. We we want to avoid any scratching of the head that they're doing. Because at the end of the day, whether or not they accept your application might come down to like whether they ate a donut in the morning that made them sick. So we really want to make sure that we're minimizing anything that is gonna make them slow down on your application. And so don't be too off guard if the Jack: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Joey Vitale: The description that a trademark attorney comes up with for what you do sounds a little bit like legalese and is is pretty far away from like how you would describe what you do on your website. Jack: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm glad you I'm glad you touched on the classes because We've had clients who have chosen a name and they're really attached to the name, but they do a quick Google search. And, you know, maybe they want to be selling something that would go under like a clothing class. And they search the name, and maybe they've chosen an odd name. And up in the search bar pops a new AI agent that's using the same name. And they think, somebody already got it. I can't trademark it. It's gone. It's being used. So would they still be able to use it? Joey Vitale: No, I'm I'm glad you bring that up, Jack, because this is a a huge problem that we see people that try and do their own trademarks experiences. The the the trademark search database, it's really cool that it's free. It's this government website you can use to look up trademarks. But a lot of people make the mistake of they run a search, they see that someone else has their trademark or something like it, but they don't think about the fact that what they've applied for is in a different class. Jack: Yes. Yes. And more and more people are trying to do their own Joey Vitale: Or it's completely different. And just just to clarify how nuanced this can even be, is it's not the the the math and the analysis here is not as simple as like if it's in the same class, we're gonna deny it, or if it's in a different class, we're gonna allow it. There are interrelated classes where j they those types of classes tend to be, you know. Jack: Right. Joey Vitale: sold in similar places. We this was a while ago, but I love this example. We filed for a a gyms trademark and we were pretty confident that it was gonna go through. But the the examining attorney, in my opinion, was wrong and they flagged it because they thought that the the name of the gym was too similar to an apparel company. And their argument was gyms can sell clothing. And so they're in the same channel of commerce. We wrote back and were like, look, this other apparel company, like they don't even, they're not in like the athleisure wear. That's not the type of brand that would be at a gym. And so we were able to overcome it. Using a completely different example, we applied for a trademark for a podcast brand. Jack: Right. that's cool. Joey Vitale: And they were initially worried because someone else that was also in the same podcast class had a very similar trademark. We took a closer look at it, and yes, they were both podcasts, but one was about marketing for business owners. The other one was helping people walk their dogs better. So because they were reaching a completely different audience, we could make the argument that they were different enough to coexist under the same class. Jack: Yeah. Yeah, those are pretty different. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's cool. It's two two good successes. Perfect. So, you know, as somebody, as somebody who's looked at the USPTO trademark registration, the that website, which is actually quite user-friendly and clearly has been updated semi-recently because it's much better than most government websites, there are, you know, there's kind of a lot going on. It's, you know, if you're using Joey Vitale: Yes. Yes. Jack: Normal words, you're almost always gonna get some hits on whatever you look up in that database. I'm still pretty unclear on what some of the tags mean. So you'll see a lot of trademarks in there that are forget exactly what the words they use are maybe dead or abandoned. So It's not like patents, right? Where any prior art if somebody's used the name in the past, you can't use it now. If something is abandoned, can you then take that name, even if it's in the same class that that one was? Or does it maybe depend if the company is still in business, but let the trademark lapse? Joey Vitale: Yeah. Okay. Jack, I'm loving this. So apologies. I'm gonna step back again and just try and provide context so I can answer this as well as I can. one thing that is really important for smart business owners to wrap their minds around is that when you are claiming that you have rights to a trademark, those rights actually start based on who was the first to use. Jack: Yeah, good. Perfect. Joey Vitale: Not who was the first to register or even who was the first to file. So it is possible, even if you do your research and you see that someone owns a trademark registration, if you have strong evidence that you were using it before they were in a similar class on a similar channel of industry, you could petition to cancel their registration based on prior use. Now you have to. Jack: I didn't know that. Joey Vitale: spend money to make that effort. but I I want to be clear here, because a lot of people get confused on, if if something is already registered as a trademark, even if I've been in business for 20 years and didn't know it, I have to re-that's not how this works. That being said, this this live versus dead or abandoned stuff, you're right to call that out because that is important and confusing. So when a a trademark application is applied for, Jack: Okay. Joey Vitale: It is marked as live if it's either pending or it's registered. It's marked as dead if it either was refused and never registered, or if or if at one point it was registered, but that registration has lapsed. And it either way, when a a trademark has been marked as dead. Jack: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Yes. Joey Vitale: that is no longer a red flag that that that we consider. So and this is this is actually gets to a really important point. People might not have the foresight to think about the fact that even once you get your trademark registered, there is ongoing maintenance and renewal filings that you have to stay on top of to keep your registration alive. And the timing of that is a little weird. So it's it's five years after your registration and then 10 years after that, every 10 years. So it's it's long enough that a lot of people just forget to file their renewal paperwork and then it accidentally goes abandoned. Jack: Mm-hmm. Easy enough. Right. Right. And you can keep doing that forever, right? There's no cool. So unlike a patent. Joey Vitale: Yes. As long as you're continuing to use the trademark as a trademark. Jack: And so one quick kind of clarifying question back to classes and kind of in the context of us working with people who are just starting a business who are launching one product. If you wanted to amend a trademark down the line to include a new class of goods or services, can you do that? Or do you have to file a new one or okay. Joey Vitale: You would have to file a new one. And this is a really important thing to know for businesses that are thinking about expansion or filing for new trademarks and stuff in the future. it is possible to amend an application. And you can amend a a trademark application to like change ownership. Or you can amend it to constrict. What we'll sometimes do is we'll file a trademark application and it'll get initially. like refused, and then we'll we'll amend the application to basically delete that language that was the problem. So you can amend by removing, but you can't amend by expanding what's in the application. Jack: Okay. Gotcha. Yeah, that's perfect. great. Yeah, so Kind of jumping over to a new topic here for a sec. Let's talk a little bit about what goes into enforcing a trademark. And I'll kind of give you a specific context for this. let's say you're a solo inventor and entrepreneur that has launched a product that's been out on the market for six months. You've got a trademark, you're selling 1500 units a month on Amazon. Joey Vitale: Great. Jack: And somebody else noticed that and said, nope, I bet I can list this a little bit cheaper and take all their sales. What would you do as the entrepreneur to use your trademark to protect your brands and your your market position? Joey Vitale: Yeah. Well, there there was one really important phrase that you you added, Jack, that I really want to underline and highlight like three times, which is they were taking all your sales. To me, that's the crux of this. And I hear all the time from business owners who see a copycat, and immediately there's just this like. There's sense of like that isn't right, that isn't ethical, there's this sense of like ego and pride, which I totally get because I've been on this side of things as well, where it's like, that shouldn't happen. This isn't right, we have to go after them. I get all of that. And we have to be thinking of objectively as business owners, is the juice worth the squeeze there? Is it worth it to spend time, money, and mental effort to enforce your rights against them? So it Jack: Yeah. Joey Vitale: 100% if you are measurably seeing a huge consequence to your business, then it's financially better for your business to get them to stop versus letting it continue. Jack: Yeah, absolutely. Joey Vitale: So I I would take next steps there. you can always start with what I call a good cop letter first. You don't need an attorney to do this. And we've had a lot of clients that have reported success here, where it's just like a hey, I wanted to just reach out personally. You might not know this, but I own this trademark. please take XYZ steps. You can do that. depending on the situation. And I think this makes sense in in the situation that that you brought up as an example, Jack. If the trademark infringement is happening on a platform like an Etsy or an Amazon, usually those platforms make it really easy to report the trademark infringement. And if your trademark is registered, then that platform tends to be really helpful in just doing the work for you of. removing those product listings, whatever. If that's not the case, then you can send cease and desist letters. Usually it's helpful to get an attorney involved at that point. even a strongly worded cease and desist letter, the other party doesn't have to respond or reach out to, although it's not a good look. So ultimately if it's a bad actor that is ignoring you, it might take starting and winning a lawsuit to get them to stop. Jack: Mm-hmm. Right. But you said something that's pretty key to our audience, which are, you know, generally our clients are not at a point where they're they would be excited to engage in a multi tens or hundreds of thousand dollar lawsuit. Oftentimes, let's use Amazon as the example. Amazon will just delist the other product for you if you're you have a registered trademark and you're in their brand registry. That is Huge. I mean that's Just that makes it worth getting a trademark in pretty much 100% of cases for the clients that we work with, because obviously Amazon is the biggest marketplace in the world. And so you want your product to be as relevant as possible, you're probably selling there. And you don't need to actually go to the legal system to solve the problem if you've trademarked marked your brand. And if you haven't, Joey Vitale: Yes. Jack: then you can't do anything. Joey Vitale: I I love this point so much. And and I think it's worth stepping back as a business owner and thinking about how it's pretty cool that Amazon was smart enough to think about how, okay, if if you as a business owner can show us that your trademark is registered, that's almost like the equivalent of people showing their driver's license or Birth certificate or passport of like this is proof of you being who you say you are, owning what you say you own. And and so it it it I think is really smart of them to say, okay, that is the evidence that we're gonna want that is gonna unlock various benefits for you. On a related point, and Jack, this is a newer development. So you and your team might not might not even realize this. I only caught onto it earlier this year. It's not just Amazon that is paying attention and having this idea of using trademarks as a cool like piece of evidence to use that unlacks benefits. Google recently came out with this this new wrinkle to what they do, where if you can show Google that you own your logo as a trademark, you can file paperwork so that your Email gets a special Google verification badge so that when you send your company emails, and you'll notice this if you look up like Gusto, for example, they have a little blue check in in Google, the same way that you might see a blue check on Facebook or Instagram or wherever. Only way to get the blue check with Google is through a logo trademark. But it when you get it, it's number one, a cool just sign of. Jack: Yes. Yeah. Joey Vitale: like loyalty and legitimacy, but it also improves your email open rates. And emails that get sent with the blue check can bypass the spam and promotion folders. Jack: I did not know that. I'm actually surprised I didn't know that because that is that's big. I mean, email marketing is is absolutely huge. And if you can take your open rate from five to 15%, that is massive for your business. So wow, that's actually that's one of the most compelling reasons I've heard to kind of immediately get a trademark on your logo. Because most of our clients. Joey Vitale: Isn't that crazy? Massive. Yes. Jack: trademark their logo, but all of them word mark or get a word mark on the name. I don't know if that's the correct word there, but you know, trademark the plain text version of their name, which is what you would use for for the Amazon brand registry. that is very interesting though, and something that we should probably pursue as a business if we don't have already. Yeah. Joey Vitale: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, well, well, you you and I and our teams can talk more about this. it's it's a very I think it's just a really interesting example of what's to come. And I think in the future, with with AI and market saturation, it's it's gonna be more and more important to have these signals of trust. And it seems like trademarks are becoming like a global entry equivalent. Jack: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I couldn't agree more. Joey Vitale: of if you do the extra work and can show us this, then it can just unlock certain shortcuts and doors for you. Jack: Yeah. And so I don't know anything about this. so I'm I won't have quite as good a question for you, but how I assume if you how do international trademarks work? Do you have to file in every jurisdiction that you want to own your brand name in? Joey Vitale: Yeah, so it's what's it's interesting. So there's really no such thing as an international trademark. And we we often hear from companies that are outside the US. And they're like, hey, should I get a US trademark? And we're like, it's not about where your business is based, it's about where your audience is. And so a lot of companies outside the US, they prioritize a US trademark first. For two reasons. One, because they have a strong audience still in the US, even if it's not their main market. But number two, the US is just more litigious than the other countries that they're doing business in. So it usually makes sense to start in the US, but most countries have signed on to an international treaty that basically allows shortcuts on the back end so that once your trademark is registered in one country, you can file through this. special way to get your trademark that is registered in one country like reciprocated quickly and registered in w another country. Jack: Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. That Joey Vitale: But you will have to file filing fees for every country that you add to this. And and those can add up very quickly if you want like all of the countries to be registered. Jack: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Yeah. I I can see that getting quite expensive. yeah, that's that's good to know. On the topic of price, because this is always one of the big questions, how much do trademarks usually cost? Is there generally a difference in in price between trademarking your brand name versus a logo versus one of those other wacky categories that we were talking about? Joey Vitale: Yeah, so whenever it comes to to cost, there's really two different buckets to consider. One is the the trademark filing fees themselves. So even if you try and do this on your own, you're gonna be paying about three hundred and fifty dollars per class that you file in. If you want an attorney's help. You're probably gonna want to spend a couple thousand dollars minimum to work with like a quality law firm that you can trust. what's interesting here, and we're seeing this more and more, is most of the applications that get filed in a D DIY way get rejected because people just don't know the difference. And Jack, I I'm sure you've seen some on the marketing side that like AI is great, but it's only as good as you prompt it. And if you don't know how to prompt it around this certain stuff, then your application is doomed for failure. Jack: wow. Yes, if that isn't the truth, yeah, it's it's all in the prompt. And we've had a lot more clients in the last couple of months than ever before when the topic of trademarks comes up, say, Well, why shouldn't I just do this on my own? And You know, the thought, my first thought is always that okay, they saw some AI tool or they just think that they can do this via ChatGPT. And I'm sure Chat GPT or Claude or whatever can write an extremely compelling trademark that sounds like it was written by an attorney, but as you said, the the chance of getting your trademark approved if you do it on your own is significantly lower. And this might be a good time to touch on how long it takes. for a trademark to actually be approved because I've heard you know something like seven to nine months, you can correct me on that. But Joey Vitale: It takes on average eighteen to twenty four months. Jack: Even better. This will prove my okay. That that yeah. I mean, that's a that's a significant amount of time. And if you wait that whole time, and you know, as I as our clients would be, you're building your brand in that whole window. You're going to market in that time. You're actually building a business, and then to two years later get a notice that nope, your brand name, you can't use this brand name. Joey Vitale: Yeah. Exactly. Jack: There's a too high likelihood of confusion with somebody else's brand. You got to change your name. That's a big setback that. Joey Vitale: Yeah, it it really is. W we We I was recently told by a client that we were reassuringly expensive. And I was like, I really like that phrasing. Because I I want to point out just the the risks of going the DIY or cheap route. So like like you said, Jack, there's there's just so much room for error if you try and do this yourself. And the the timing is so long that there's that real cost of like me like you don't want to have to go through this process more than once, especially, I mean. Jack: That's good to hear. Joey Vitale: You don't get your money back if at the end of the 18 months it's it's it's not available anymore or it's denied. The the other thing that is really important to keep in mind is that when you file your trademark application, every single application that's filed is a matter of public record. Which means, unfortunately, that there are a bunch of scam artists out there and they target a lot of DIY filers. and write letters, send emails, send voicemails, sounding like they're the trademark office, saying that you have to pay extra money to get it through. And I can't tell you how many times our clients so I will say that when you work with an attorney, a lot of spam artists are smart enough to know not to touch those applications, because they see that that they're being helped. But we still receive a lot of clients sending us t text message images, email photos of we just got this scary letter in the mail. Do we actually have to respond to it? And we can just say, sorry you received it. It's totally spam. Feel free to shred it. The other thing that I want to be mindful of here is. And I want to be careful in how I say this because there there are a lot of great trademark attorneys out there. And I it's not really in my nature to go after like my competitors. But what you will sometimes see if you search for a trademark attorney and you see some that are way cheaper than maybe others that you're looking at, some lawyers, just like business owners, will will try and make it a benefit to working with them. That that it's like a one-person shop. It's like, hey, if you work with me, you'll know that I will be on top of your file. You can reach out to me at any time. As a business owner myself, that raises red flags. Because what happens if that lawyer gets hit by a bus or even goes on vacation? Does that just mean that the office closes down? And And to that, I'm just I'm really proud of the team that Indy Law has built and our processes. We've have over the years designed a machine that takes care of our clients. So that whether it's me or anyone else that goes out of office or something happens, because I've been a one-man shop before, I I know what I've grown away from. And I think that there's a lot of just peace of mind that we can give our clients, knowing that. We have several just worst case scenario plannings in place so that our clients are always taken care of. Jack: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. a good team and good systems. You're you're speaking fifty-two launches language here. Yeah. absolutely. So I think we're we've covered most of what I wanted to touch on. certainly I I always think that stories that you can share about either Joey Vitale: There we go. Jack: successful exits of brands that you've trademarked or the horror stories are are often even more compelling about you know cease and desist letters five years into a business that's you know had some serious growth. Joey Vitale: Yeah, well, I I I do need to respect confidentialities, but I will say that one trend that I see that is just really tragic, but I could see this happening with a lot of your your clients and your audience is if you think about it, a lot of coffee cats come out when you're visible. And we have talked to so many clients who they thought that they were smart by waiting to get trademarked. And then Jack: Right. Joey Vitale: It's because their business goes viral online or something happens and a celebrity buys their stuff or whatever, and they get super excited, but that huge spike in visibility is when the copycat creeps up, or when someone else sees what you're you've done, they see that you haven't filed your trademark, so they file a trademark before you get around to it. Those are really the tragic things that we see where people. Jack: Yep. Yeah. Joey Vitale: They they knew all of this stuff. They thought they were being intentional about waiting, and then they get blindsided by this. another thing, just to this is a common theme of a not a mistake, but just a really best practice. We talk to a lot of clients that are in a like pre-production stage in their business. They've gone to to someone like you guys and they're they're packaging everything. They haven't gone to market yet, but they've spent The tens of thousands of dollars or whatever to get ready. When you file for an application normally, you have to show evidence of use in commerce. A lot of business owners, they see that and they think, okay, wait, that means I have to launch first and then trademark. There is a second way of doing this called an intent-to-use trademark basis. And we work with a lot of product-based companies in Jack: This is great thing to touch on. Yes. Joey Vitale: Applying for intent to use trademarks for this reason. Again, we want to follow Taylor Swift as the best practice. She always does this. she filed for the name of her latest album. After she released the name but didn't release the album yet, her team was very quick to file an intent-to-use trademark application for Life of a Showgirl. Jack: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Joey Vitale: So so don't think that you have to wait until you launch to the public to get the paperwork started. Jack: Yeah, I mean, pretty much all 52 launch clients file ITU or intent to use trademarks. So it's perfectly viable and makes a lot of sense, especially if you're you're not just thinking about going to market. You're actually on your way to being in the market. No, it's you have intent to use it. so yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Joey Vitale: Yes. Exactly. Jack: You know, obviously trademarks are part of a larger business strategy, a go-to-market strategy. Where if there's anything that we haven't touched on where trademarks add significant value to a brand, you know. Anyone going into business, anyone starting a company should in the back of their mind probably have this thought of if's if someone ever wants to buy this thing, I should probably be willing to sell it. Exits are a success in business most of the time. So, you know, I guess we could touch on how do trademarks make that easier or how does it make it really difficult to achieve a successful exit if you don't own the name of your brand. Joey Vitale: Yes. Yeah. Well and and other quick yeah, because I know we don't have a whole lot of time, Jack, but a couple of things to really keep in mind. One is that I love that that 52 Launch is encouraging all of its clients to shift away from personal brands to business names, logos, slogans that that aren't just personally tied to the owner. Jack: Right. Joey Vitale: mostly for these exit strategy reasons. It's really hard to leave a company. And we're seeing a lot of lawyers do this because it's so common to name your law firm after your own name. When they eventually want to shift away and sell the law firm, it can be really hard and difficult with an an audience to explain what that means. but more directly to your question, Jack, is trademarks are one of the very few examples Jack: Yeah. Joey Vitale: of assets that can be a specific line item when it comes to a sale. Jack: Cool. I didn't know that either. Joey Vitale: And so when you're thinking about actually putting out a job offer or explaining, okay, what's our worth for the company? trademarks are a very rare asset that you own that can be listed as a line item. we do not do trademark valuations, that's a really kind of different breed of stuff. but as you plan for an expert, you do want to make sure that you have a trademark valuation. expert on that like board of advisors to to maximize the the valuation. Jack: Yeah, that makes sense. Perfect. I think I think we covered just about all of it. You know, certainly at 52 launch, we feel like trademarks are just always make sense. you know, with with a constrained budget, trying to get to profitability as quickly as possible. Patents may or may not make sense. You know, it can be a much more significant investment, even longer timelines. And you know, sometimes they're actually a little bit harder to enforce or a lot harder to enforce. Trademarks always make sense. It's like it it's part of a Joey Vitale: They they always make sense and and I really as much as it is a best practice if you can to work with an attorney, I'm also very committed to doing everything I can to make price not a barrier. So I I can send this to fifty two launch later, but like I've I've got a book legally legit. Jack: We can put it in the video description. Joey Vitale: Yeah, I've got a book legally legit that walks you through the steps that I would take if I was sitting next to you working on your trademark application. We've also got a a DIY course as well that is like working with a law firm. and so you can use that course to complete a search and get your application filed in about three hours if you have that time and you want to do it your own. Jack: Nice. Wow. Yeah, that will will certainly be of interest to this audience, I'm sure. So we'll link all that in the description below. people can find you at indielaw.com. Joey Vitale: Absolutely. Thank you so much for for to Jack and to all of fifty two launch for having me. Jack: thank you for being here. Your your expertise is much appreciated. And you know, if anyone listening has a product idea that they're thinking about getting serious about, book a call with Joey, book a call with me. We both offer some free consultation time. And even if you don't end up working with us, you'll certainly learn something and you'll have made another step in the process of getting to market. So thank you for listening to this episode of the Pitch to Product Podcast, and we'll hope to see you next time.