Latest / Heroes Behind the Badge / Inside the Crisis Facing America’s Police Leadership: Steven Sund Breaks It Down (Part 2)

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Inside the Crisis Facing America’s Police Leadership: Steven Sund Breaks It Down (Part 2) · Heroes Behind the Badge

0:16
VO: On January 6th, failure wasn't a lack of warning.
0:20
It wasn't a lack of experience, it was a failure of permission.
0:24
In this episode, former US Capitol Police Chief Steve Sund walks us
0:28
back into the command center and into the decisions that still shape
0:32
what we understand about that day.
0:34
Craig Floyd: Hey, Steve.
0:36
we're doing this interview right around the five year
0:39
anniversary of January 6th, 2021.
0:43
The riot at the Capitol, you were Chief of Police on that day, and
0:48
you've written a book, and I, want our audience to understand that this
0:52
is the definitive, piece of work.
0:55
If you wanna know what really happened on January 6th, what
0:58
led up to it, the aftermath.
1:01
all the good things that happened that day, the heroism of, the Capitol police
1:06
and other jurisdictions, and how they were able to protect the Capitol and
1:10
prevent, any member of Congress or staff from being, injured or killed
1:16
and, I wanna get that out there.
1:18
First of all, because we're not gonna be able to cover
1:20
all the details in this book.
1:22
We've already interviewed you in a great three part series a year ago.
1:26
About what happened on January 6th, and we talked about your book, but, in hindsight,
1:31
okay, here we are five years later.
1:33
I'd like you to just, reflect on January 6th, the lead up, the aftermath.
1:39
What was your toughest challenge, the toughest moment
1:43
that you faced on January 6th?
1:46
And then we'll talk about, some of the mistakes that were made in some
1:50
of the, lessons that we've learned.
1:53
Steven Sund: I can tell you a absolutely as soon as you start saying it,
1:55
because it was the time I felt like I had a shockwave go through my body.
1:59
I'm sitting in a chair at the command center.
2:01
I'm at the front of this, large command center.
2:03
We have video screens up on the front.
2:05
I'm at a U-shaped desk.
2:07
I'm watching all the video screens, at, the front.
2:10
It's probably about 12:53.
2:12
The riot began and I saw my officers quickly being
2:15
overpowered, picked up the phone.
2:18
called, you know what?
2:19
Luckily, first call was the MPD and they sent me some assistance right away.
2:22
But by law, I have to get permission to bring in federal resources and
2:26
resources for my men and women.
2:28
So I called the Capitol Police Board, which I'm still by law, even in
2:31
emergency, I have to get, permission, called speaker Pelosi, Sergeant At Arms.
2:37
He, and he had permit.
2:39
He had the ability to gimme permission, but he wouldn't.
2:41
He wanted to run it up the chain.
2:43
I couldn't believe it.
2:43
I've got liaisons from the Capitol Police Board sitting right behind me
2:46
watching the same thing I'm watching.
2:48
I can't get permission to bring in any, federal resources from my
2:52
officers watching them being, beaten, struck, protestors, running past them.
2:58
I called the Senate Sergeant At Arms and I get denied again repeatedly.
3:03
House Sergeant At Arms, I keep calling 'cause the House Sergeant At Arms pretty
3:06
much driving the train on this one.
3:08
I was just in shock that I can't get permission to bring
3:11
in resources, for my offices.
3:13
That's the thing that kind of shocked me the most, that you know here, my
3:16
officers are battling, I'm having to watch them battle, and here I'm stuck
3:20
because of a policy and bureaucracy.
3:23
to say I can't bring in federal resources.
3:24
I didn't.
3:25
I, I didn't sit back, for that 71 minutes and do nothing.
3:28
That's when I started calling every chief of police.
3:30
I knew, relying on relationships and brought in those resources
3:34
even though I hadn't been given permission at that point.
3:36
so I was just, that's the thing that just shocks me the most.
3:39
The fact that it wasn't an instantaneous absolutely whatever
3:42
you need, chief, bring them in.
3:44
it was delayed for over an hour.
3:47
Craig Floyd: In your mind, if we had the National Guard, resources
3:51
that you had wanted to, prepare and, have, surrounding the Capitol
3:56
that day, is it fair to say that we would've prevented what we saw on tv?
4:00
Would we have prevented people from, breaching the, US Capitol?
4:05
Steven Sund: So there, there's two aspects to that.
4:06
Yes, yes.
4:08
and it's just not my opinion.
4:10
Congress has actually come out now in a report and said, if the House and Senate
4:13
Sergeant At Arms had approved Chief Son's request on January 3rd, chances are the
4:17
Capitol would've never been breached.
4:19
And I absolutely believe that I've worked with, national Guard troops.
4:22
For decades, I've sworn in thousand National Gaurd troops.
4:25
They would've come out, they would've done an assessment through the DSCA program.
4:28
Defense support for civil authorities, analyzed the size of our perimeter, and
4:32
all I wanted them was to unarmed National Guard to help support my perimeter.
4:36
I had a large perimeter that four foot bike rack.
4:38
Only had 273 officers for the perimeter.
4:40
And you gotta understand those officers aren't just for the
4:43
perimeter, therefore response, they're CDU response, they're a response.
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They're some of the P officers I lost when we got the pipe bombs that came in.
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And I just wanted them to augment my officers so people wouldn't be inclined to
4:53
jump over the fence and couldn't get that.
4:56
So Congress has already come out and said, chances are we, they would've,
5:00
the capital would've never been breached if they had approved on the third.
5:03
And then if you look at January 6th, the head of the D.C. National
5:06
Guard General William Walker at the time actually testified and said
5:10
he had almost 200 National Guard within eyesight of the Capitol.
5:14
If I had gotten immediate approval to bring them in chance R, they could have
5:18
been on site very quickly, and he thinks they actually could have prevented
5:20
it even once the, riot had started.
5:24
Bill Erfurth: While we're on this topic, I just wanna, throw a few more
5:27
things out, especially for people that haven't watched, any of our poD.C.asts
5:32
before, perhaps know your background.
5:33
But, you had mentioned that right now you'd mentioned that even
5:40
as early as January 3rd, that.
5:42
The National Guard was requested.
5:44
I think there's been numerous other people, that have come forward now
5:48
that were privy to those discussions with not only the Department of
5:51
Defense, but the White House and everybody that said, yeah, Trump even
5:55
said, send National Guard ultimately.
5:58
And you, I want to go back to what you were just saying
6:00
about the Sergeant of Arms.
6:03
You were the scapegoat.
6:04
You were fired the next day after January 6th by Nancy Pelosi
6:08
because it was a political thing.
6:10
Clearly, Sergeant of Arms works for Nancy Pelosi.
6:15
They ultimately were the ones along with, it's my understanding,
6:19
Mario Bowser, the mayor.
6:20
Of D.C. that all didn't want the National Guard for whatever reason.
6:24
But here's what I wanna ask.
6:26
So there's been reporting, and I just want to know if you know anything about
6:30
this or if it's true, when the Sergeant of Arms left whenever that was, it's
6:38
been reported that he had to sign A-M-D-A-A non-disclosure agreement,
6:43
which I've never heard of before.
6:46
What do you know about that?
6:48
Steven Sund: So as far as, so you have two Sarge Arms.
6:51
You have Mike Stinger, and you have Paul Irving.
6:53
I, you, I suspect you're probably talking about Paul Irving, or, maybe
6:57
you're talking about both of 'em.
6:58
don't know under what circumstances, they left.
7:02
But IWI will tell you this, what's, what I find interesting is when I left, again, I
7:06
was stripped out within 24 hours and then.
7:10
Removed from my office that Friday, I got a call and said, you're
7:13
immediately out of your office and disconnected from everything.
7:16
you gotta wonder why did that happen so fast?
7:18
That's a whole nother story.
7:20
but for me, no, NDA, they never approached me about an NDA.
7:24
But what's interesting is several officials after me, that were,
7:29
discipline, some people that are whistleblowers, that they went after,
7:33
all within the, department board I understand we're, required to sign NDAs.
7:39
Bill Erfurth: Who signs an NDA unless you got something to hide.
7:42
Steven Sund: Of course, NA, right?
7:44
Unless you're, gonna go and sell corporate secrets or something like that.
7:47
Nothing I, I talk about is, is classified.
7:49
Nothing associated with this, was classified.
7:52
Bill Erfurth: It's very, suspect, but, so you just made it clear
7:55
you did not have to sign an NDA.
7:58
No.
7:58
But what I remember in discussing with you before.
8:02
You had some issues with people, even threats, trying to dissuade
8:08
you from writing your book.
8:11
Steven Sund: Oh, let's see.
8:12
again, had a number of people that were, that were, concerned
8:16
about your writing book.
8:17
I'll take the January 6th Select committee.
8:21
'cause that was right, when, we were having negotiations with them, again, they
8:26
never wanted me to just testify in public.
8:28
I would've been happy to testify in public.
8:30
and they kept pushing for behind the closed door.
8:33
I interview, which we, I ultimately did.
8:36
And they, I think were concerned.
8:39
I was writing a book so that, there's a little bit, Hey, are after writing
8:42
a book, and for me, it wasn't about writing a book, it was about doing an
8:44
after action report and making sure that somebody understands what exactly
8:48
what really happened based on the facts.
8:51
so yeah, that was, the, the pressure I'd gotten.
8:55
Not, I don't feel like I, I had gotten a whole lot of pressure
8:57
from up on the hill about it.
9:00
I stayed, I stayed very quiet.
9:03
about putting it together as I just collected information.
9:06
But, I will tell you this, I had whistleblowers from within my
9:09
own intelligence unit come out.
9:10
several of those ended up getting disciplined, which was sad.
9:13
Whistleblowers within the intelligence community itself, Department
9:16
of Defense whistleblowers come out, that helped support that.
9:20
Were very supportive of the, of the book and the number one support I get today.
9:24
which is interesting 'cause I still have a great relationship
9:26
with Capitol police officers, MPD officers, a lot of my brethren.
9:31
Of Capitol police officers continue to tell me just how happy they were that I
9:35
wrote the book and actually their story.
9:37
'cause, it's, their story too, is told in a, factual, unbiased, account.
9:45
I appreciate.
9:45
Bill Erfurth: I remember Dennis telling us about reading the book when
9:50
he read the book and saying it was the most detailed factual account.
9:58
And, you had all of the references, the cross references,
10:01
the side notes and whatever.
10:03
Dennis, maybe you want to jump on that?
10:04
Dennis Collins: Yeah, I I, do a lot of reading and I will tell you that probably
10:09
is the most research, heavy, citation heavy book that I've read in a long time.
10:15
He's got ex, dates and times, exact ti times and dates.
10:19
You have messages, exact copies of messages, emails, et cetera.
10:24
I was like, wow.
10:26
That gave, that what, whatever level of credibility you had that just
10:32
put it way, way up there for me.
10:34
Craig Floyd: And the good thing about the book I found is that it was a page turner.
10:38
you talk about all the detail and all the research that went into it,
10:42
but you felt like you were there on January 6th living through the.
10:46
The minute by minute, action, out on the grounds of the Capitol.
10:51
What was happening behind the scenes in, your office, Steve?
10:55
I found it fascinating and, again, I encourage, all our audience to, to go
10:59
out and read it because we're, just gonna be able to touch the surface here today.
11:03
One question I had, getting back to your earlier comment is, based
11:08
on what you know today, have.
11:09
Changes been made to allow for the chief of the Capitol police to have
11:14
more control, more say over what resources he, he or she may need.
11:19
I, if ever a crisis like this occurs again.
11:23
Steven Sund: So the biggest problem I faced and looking back at, it
11:27
was the political influence that.
11:30
People have over the, chief of the Capitol Police, you have the Capitol Police Board.
11:35
They're all politically, appointed individuals.
11:38
they exert an extreme amount of pressure on the Chief, and that still exists.
11:43
and then you have four, congressional oversight committees
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that are really staffed.
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Even though you have members of Congress on each of the oversight
11:50
committees, really a lot of the political pressure comes from the
11:53
staffers, that gets pushed down.
11:55
And, sad to say that's the, that environment still exists.
11:59
The one thing that did change, and I have a lot of people, that will question, oh,
12:03
did did you have to keep going forward?
12:06
Permission?
12:06
Did you really have to get permission?
12:08
I if you doubt it, the one law that I referenced that to U.S.
12:11
Code § 1970, they changed.
12:12
They changed 11 months after January 6th.
12:15
In December, 2021, they did the, US Capitol Police Emergency
12:19
Authorization Act, I think is what they, did the amendment titled.
12:23
and now they grant the chief of police, when they deem, when he deems
12:27
necessary, he or she deems necessary to call in federal resources without
12:31
going through that bureaucratic mess.
12:32
So the one thing that changed was they changed 2 U.S. Code § 1970.
12:36
but besides that, the structure that I still think, adds to.
12:41
poor planning, poor, preparations.
12:45
whether or not your officers are gonna be in hard gear, whether or not you're
12:47
gonna put up fencing, all relates way too much, per, allows too much power from,
12:53
political influence to, to affect those decisions rather than looking and say,
12:57
Hey, we've got somebody that's a, 30 year.
13:00
Police veteran, let's listen to him.
13:01
If he sees, says his officers need to be in hard gear, put 'em in hard gear.
13:06
you need fencing, let's give 'em the fencing.
13:08
But now you just gotta go through all these rigmaroles and get approval.
13:12
Think about it.
13:13
We didn't have tasers up on Capitol Hill.
13:16
what an environment for less lethal.
13:18
That's an environment.
13:19
You need a number of different options.
13:21
But 'cause we deal with mental health concerns all the time.
13:24
It took months, it took years for me to get tasers, and I had to go
13:29
through these committees and keep defending myself why I wanted tasers.
13:32
That's a no brainer.
13:34
why would you not, why wouldn't you not want 'em immediately?
13:36
And, have to deal with staffers to get permission to bring in tasers.
13:40
That just makes no sense.
13:41
Bill Erfurth: See, I think it's important here just to, make sure
13:45
that we say or, let you talk about the fact that since then, since this
13:50
whole incident, you've been exonerated.
13:53
life has changed quite a bit for you, but you've also been involved with Congress.
13:57
You've been speaking to some of the senators, the Congress people.
14:02
I don't, I can't recall the timeline.
14:04
Have you been on one of the committees in front of one of the committees or
14:08
about to be, maybe talk about that stuff.
14:12
Steven Sund: Yeah, I stay, in, touch with many members of, of Congress.
14:16
Right now, the current January 6th committee is chaired by,
14:19
chairman Barry Loudermilk.
14:20
He's doing a really good job.
14:21
He chaired the, previous one, I, testified last time I testified in public.
14:26
Before them was September, I wanna say 23.
14:30
because of the shutdown, a lot of delays and getting the process back
14:34
up, they're now back up and running.
14:35
It's my understanding they're gonna have their first hearing
14:37
in the beginning of the year, possibly even on, on January 6th.
14:42
I've told 'em, they've asked, Hey, you may be one of our first, witnesses.
14:45
Okay?
14:46
I, you, they know they don't have to subpoena me.
14:48
I'll be there.
14:50
but I think right now they've, they, should be focused and they know my story.
14:54
they've, matter of fact, the chairman actually endorsed the book.
14:57
So he knows my story.
14:58
My story's not gonna change.
14:59
It hasn't changed in five years.
15:01
It's not gonna change now.
15:02
they need to bring in, some of the bigger fish they need to bring in some
15:05
of the people that may be, again, behind some of the cri critical decisions that
15:09
caused us to be ill prepared that day.
15:12
Bill Erfurth: So let's talk about some of those things that happened in January 6th.
15:16
I, because we don't wanna harp on this continuously, but I want to
15:19
close the book on this, the good, the bad, the ugly, the indifference.
15:24
There's been a lot of video, there's been a lot of reporting, and I wanna see.
15:29
What light you perhaps could shed on some of these things.
15:32
So I'm gonna ask you three different things and we can go over them.
15:36
the first one we'll start out with is, it's been reported that the FBI had
15:39
numerous up to maybe a hundred or more 200 sources and informants that were in the
15:45
crowd that were used to incite the crowd.
15:50
Maybe even perhaps encourage them to come into the, or go into the Capitol building.
15:55
What do you know about that?
15:58
Steven Sund: It, it's interesting you asked that question.
16:00
in a number of my interviews, I've often said I would've been, I
16:03
would've absolutely been surprised that there wasn't, if there was,
16:07
if they said there was never any undercover, agents in the, crowd or,
16:12
CHS as confidential human sources.
16:13
But CHS is aside special agents.
16:17
I would've been surprised, a big event taking place in Washington,
16:19
D.C. You've got plain clothes, people that work for Secret Service.
16:21
You've got plain clothes.
16:22
People that work for the FBI, you've got the Joint Terrorism Task Force.
16:25
You've got.
16:26
Plain clothes for Capitol Police.
16:27
You've got, The park police.
16:30
think about it.
16:31
to think.
16:31
There would've been no undercovers in the crowd that, that just
16:34
didn't, hold water for me.
16:36
But you're, what you're referring to is a report that recently came
16:39
out, 275, 273, under, plain clothes.
16:44
They referred to 'em as plain clothes, fed, FBI agents, that responded
16:49
to the Capitol on January 6th.
16:51
So let's look at that.
16:52
That's a report that came out.
16:54
I think it came out, which was denied by the way.
16:56
Bill Erfurth: They denied that there was ever those people there.
16:59
Steven Sund: What it goes back is Christopher Ray is down on the hill on
17:01
several occasions and he is testifying that he, he, can't account for any, he's
17:06
not sure if there was any in the crowd.
17:08
That right there, if you're the director of the FBI one or the director of the WFO,
17:13
or you go back down, who's running JTTF.
17:16
All you gotta do is ask who'd you have in the crowd who was out there.
17:20
that's something that would've been an easy, hold on, lemme pick up the phone
17:23
and find out for him to keep saying, and he went down there repeatedly
17:26
saying he can't answer that he doesn't know how many he was there that.
17:29
Yeah, that, that's just poor management if that's the case, but that just
17:32
doesn't, that doesn't make sense to me.
17:35
ultimately because of Congress kept pressing, pushing a report finally
17:39
came out from the, FBI talking about there's 273, FBI agents, plain
17:44
closed FBI agents that responded.
17:47
So I've read through that report a couple of times.
17:48
If you read through it, it actually talks about a couple of things.
17:50
One.
17:51
There's a response to the capital.
17:54
So ultimately, as those 71 minutes are tick ticking by, and I can't get
17:58
permission to bring in federal resource, like I said, I'm talking to every
18:03
chief.
18:03
Every person I know.
18:04
I'm talking to Secret Service.
18:05
I'm talking to Wada, I'm talking to Metropolitan Airport
18:08
Authority, Fairfax, you, name it.
18:11
Actually a mutual aid.
18:12
ultimately I talked to a guy by the name of Dave Bch, number two
18:15
over at, FBI at the time about, Hey, send me whatever you've got.
18:20
he was gonna send over some of his, what they call their SWAT team.
18:23
It's a, Not full-time.
18:26
It's, one day you're an agent at WFO doing financial crimes, but you've got
18:31
all this gear and you're trained to a SWAT level so you can form into a SWAT team.
18:35
So I contacted him, he was gonna send people over to lot 16,
18:38
we were gonna deploy him from lot 16 inside the building.
18:41
And at lot 16 I had somebody, keeping track of who we were getting over.
18:46
I've been involved in active shooters before.
18:47
I knew I wanted to keep track of my resources.
18:51
and from that I got an accounting of 55.
18:53
At the end of the night, 55 FBI agents came over to assist.
18:57
So we've got that, tranche.
19:00
Another one is when I went over to brief the Senate over on the Senate
19:04
division, the Senate side of the, Capitol, the, hostage rescue team was on site.
19:11
I'd been told that actually helicoptered in, fast roped into a
19:14
lot 16, but they were on site there.
19:16
I wasn't aware of that.
19:17
That wasn't part of my, accounting.
19:20
Their hostage rescue team.
19:21
I think it's right around 44 to 48 people maybe, actual operators,
19:26
not counting all their support.
19:28
okay, maybe there's another 40, 45, let's say.
19:30
So now we're up to about a hundred.
19:32
Then they talked about deploying, some FBI agents to the two pipe bombs.
19:36
We had the one at the RNC one at the DNC, and I know for a fact FBI was there.
19:40
They responded in plain clothes.
19:41
Five, maybe 10 per site.
19:43
That's maybe 120.
19:45
so we've got a big difference between the 120, 130 I might be
19:49
able to account for, and the two 70.
19:51
I have no idea, what the other ones were doing.
19:54
I think there needs to be a better accounting.
19:56
the only reporting I've heard of an undercover, law enforcement, officer
20:01
in the crowd encouraging people to go into the building was the committee.
20:06
Under Barry Loudermilk had a video of what they reported to be an MPD
20:10
officer, possibly, part of their intelligence division, encouraging
20:15
people, you gotta go in, you gotta move towards capital, you gotta go in.
20:17
So that's the one they have on video that I'm aware of.
20:20
but yeah, there's just a big discrepancy, 273 versus the numbers I have.
20:25
it'd just be nice to know exactly what everybody was doing.
20:27
Bill Erfurth: So the two other parts of this to wrap up, there's
20:31
video out there, first of all, there's a lot of video, right?
20:34
But there's still video from the US Capitol building that hasn't been
20:39
released, which a lot of people are wondering why is that the case?
20:42
But the videos that I'm gonna ask you about, so there's this one
20:45
guy pretty, recognizable on TV with the horns and the crazy hat.
20:51
He was like the Grand Puba or something, the shaman, whatever he, was, and,
20:56
you see him and he goes into the.
20:59
To the, floor and tries to get up on the speaker's chair or whatever and it
21:04
looks like before and after that he's been, he's being essentially escorted or
21:09
given a tour by a Capitol police officer.
21:14
Tell us about that.
21:15
Steven Sund: So my understanding of that, and I've had a chance to talk with,
21:19
some of the officers that were, on the scene, not specifically the officers
21:23
that were, escorting him, but some of the officers that were on the scene, and
21:26
the individual you're talking about is, Jacob Chansley, I believe is his name.
21:30
He's there, the officers are trying to clear what they call
21:33
the, this, the house chambers.
21:36
they've got people in there, they've gone in there, asked him several times to clear
21:39
out, and they see this guy that's wearing the horns and walk around and they, almost
21:42
think of him as a, in facto, leader.
21:47
They looked at him like, Hey, maybe he's, the, these groups will follow him.
21:50
And he kept saying, I'll help you get them out.
21:51
From what I understand.
21:53
I'll help you get them out.
21:54
Just get me in there and, I can help you get 'em out.
21:56
So you see the officers go around to a couple of the doors that are locked.
21:58
He finally finds the doors that are unlocked, escort 'em in.
22:01
And I believe he does actually help, to get some of those people out.
22:04
He prays for the officers, helps get some of 'em out.
22:07
So I think ultimately the officers are trying to find somebody that, the
22:10
people that were inside the chambers, the people that were unauthorized
22:14
to be in there would listen to when they weren't listening to the
22:17
police officers and actually vacate.
22:19
So I think that's the story behind that one.
22:21
Bill Erfurth: The last one then is there's video of some Capitol police
22:25
officers in uniform actually holding the doors open and allowing people to enter.
22:31
How do you explain that?
22:34
Steven Sund: Yeah, that, that'd be one I'd, I'd like to look at.
22:36
There are videos and I'll tell you, I've seen a couple of, different
22:39
videos where it looks like you're following some of the protesters.
22:42
You see some of the officers standing back.
22:44
They could be standing against the doors, and looking like
22:47
they're holding the doors open.
22:49
but there's a number of cases where the officers, and I've talked to some
22:52
of these officers, they said, Hey, chief, we are absolutely overwhelmed.
22:56
Over number outnumbered.
22:57
What were we supposed to do?
22:58
We're just sitting there, we, we couldn't form a line.
23:01
We couldn't, provide any, force to try force them out.
23:04
We just kinda stood back and hoping things would deescalate.
23:07
So I think you may have a couple of cases like that.
23:09
I, I've, heard stories where doors were left unlocked.
23:13
That's, terrible.
23:13
If that is the case, I know there's a video out where it
23:17
shows a. African American female officer out on the east front.
23:21
It looks like she's waving at people to come on in, come toward the building,
23:25
and then the camera turns and you see a large crowd of people walking toward her.
23:30
She was actually, waving at other police officers that couldn't hear us on the
23:33
radio or couldn't hear people saying we're falling back to the Capitol.
23:36
So she's waving at them.
23:38
so there's some, explanation for some of it, but if you've got somebody,
23:42
holding doors open for, protesters that you know that's something
23:45
that shouldn't have happened.
23:48
Craig Floyd: Steve, it's been, a little over a year now, since our last interview.
23:53
And, a couple big things have happened since then.
23:57
I'm gonna ask you about both of them.
23:58
First.
23:59
very recently they arrested.
24:02
The pipe bomber, you've alluded to it several times in your comments that,
24:06
there were two pipe bombs that were found, one at the RNC, the Republican National
24:13
Committee Building and the other at the Democrat National Committee, building.
24:20
And nobody ever, the, bombs never.
24:22
Were detonated, thank goodness nobody was hurt by them.
24:26
But clearly they could have done a lot of damage.
24:28
They could have caused death, and nobody ever found out
24:32
who was responsible for that.
24:33
there were a lot of theories.
24:35
Now the pipe bomber has been arrested.
24:37
What do you know about the suspect that was arrested, and why did it
24:41
take five years for them to finally figure out what happened there?
24:46
Steven Sund: That's, that, that's the big question for me.
24:48
I've always, I've, been pushing over and over and, to, for them to hopefully
24:54
find this, the pipe bomber or the pipe bombers or whoever's, behind it.
24:59
And knew that this would, eventually it's gonna lead to, some good,
25:04
hopefully puzzle pieces being put in place on this whole January 6th thing.
25:08
what I know of, Brian Cole, Jr. One interesting, individual.
25:14
I will say this, I've been in touch with the committees.
25:16
I've actually been down to talk to the committees back in, I wanna say
25:19
October, pushing for, re-announcement of the $500,000, reward, and that FBI
25:25
there, and looking at this from square one, I'm glad they've, solved it.
25:31
I would say a couple things.
25:32
One.
25:33
Handle this investigation methodically, not like they did before.
25:37
methodically, stay quiet if you have to on stuff as you're, see seeking prosecution.
25:41
I don't think Brian Cole, Jr. is gonna be the sole person, responsible.
25:46
You see him on the phone a couple of times talking to somebody while he's,
25:49
walking around planning these devices.
25:52
HIs mental acuity is I guess being as brought into question.
25:56
we'll see how that is.
25:58
But I'm glad they found somebody and I just hope they handled the
26:00
investigation appropriately, and we get, some more answers out of it as
26:04
far as why it took so long, to find out now that this was solved, all based on
26:09
evidence they already had, in place.
26:13
All of it's, the, phone records, the geolocating, that would've
26:17
led to the, car, the LPR.
26:20
This, it would've taken a good comp three, four weeks, maybe.
26:26
And, then if you gotta wait for returns from the phone companies, I'll, give 'em
26:29
a little bit more time, not 58 months.
26:32
I mean come on folks.
26:34
That just doesn't make any sense.
26:36
To find out that they were sitting on this evidence the entire time, and they
26:40
could have solved this a long time ago.
26:42
I find that very, concerning.
26:45
Bill Erfurth: Isn't it interesting that with the new leadership, now
26:47
that it's at the FBI and the DOJ, lots of things are coming out.
26:53
Steven Sund: Yep.
26:54
And I'm thinking I continue to pursue 'em.
26:55
Yes, sir.
26:56
Dennis Collins: Do you have any, sense, any instinct, any cop instinct
27:01
as to why those bombs were planted?
27:05
Steven Sund: I've always, felt that, For me, the, timing was very, suspect.
27:11
the fact that they're identified just minutes before, we have the, breach
27:16
of the, west front, it couldn't have happened at a worse time.
27:19
So for me, I've always felt it was some type of diversionary tactic because
27:22
it pulled the limited resources I had away over to the RNC at a terrible
27:27
time and we had to evacuate part of the candid house office building.
27:31
so I've always felt.
27:32
it was a diversionary, tactic somehow associated with January 6th.
27:36
We'll see.
27:37
We'll see what comes out of that.
27:39
but the timing, I'm always suspicious about, the timing, that's,
27:44
that, that's my thought on it.
27:46
I'm just waiting for more to come out.
27:47
Craig Floyd: I think most of the people listening, to this poD.C.ast
27:51
probably didn't even know there were any pipe bombs maybe they heard
27:55
about the pipe bomber being arrested and they learned about it that way.
27:58
But with everything else going on January 6th, on the Capitol grounds, people trying
28:06
to breach the capital, I think that's where all our attention was focused.
28:10
Meanwhile, you and your officers have to deal with.
28:13
Pipe bombs being left at buildings right along the, US Capitol campus.
28:19
unbelievable what you had to deal with that day, my friend.
28:22
But, the other issue that I wanted you to comment on, because we didn't get a chance
28:27
to ask you about this, president Trump, one of his first acts, when he became
28:31
president, was to issue pardons to most of the rioters on January 6th, many of 'em
28:38
who had been imprisoned, since that time.
28:42
I'm just curious, what, is your reaction to Pardoning rioters who
28:46
were, combating your officers and trying to get into the US Capitol?
28:53
Steven Sund: I'll tell you a couple of things.
28:54
One, he had always said he was gonna do it, when he was going through the, the
28:59
campaign and he was, out there, talking.
29:03
It was no secret he was gonna do it.
29:05
For me, being a rule of law type of guy, I, only wish that it probably a
29:11
better way of done it would've just gone through each, case individually.
29:15
You had a, I wanna say approximately 17, 1800 people that they went
29:18
through and they ended up, pardoning some of those people, were extremely
29:22
violent, and assaulted my officers, and deserved to do, some time.
29:29
And be held accountable.
29:30
And then you had other people that again, would just walk through and
29:34
were trespassing, and didn't deserve, the lengthy prison sentences that
29:38
they got and, solitary confinement and the treatment they received.
29:42
so I think, that he said he was gonna do it.
29:44
I'm not shocked that, he did it.
29:46
I just, think that there would better way to do it would've been on a
29:49
case by case basis, go through it.
29:51
Some people have said that would've taken a lot of time.
29:54
I used to run a crash review board.
29:55
We'd review, A couple hundred, crashes a month.
29:59
we could get through that with 12 people in a week or two.
30:03
And I think that just would've been a better way to do it.
30:05
But, I honestly do believe some of those people deserved, to be pardoned,
30:10
with the way they were treated.
30:12
and again, other people, deserve to be held accountable, for what they did.
30:16
Bill Erfurth: I, we, it's very well stated there, there's people today
30:21
that are doing armed robberies that, are let out without bond, right?
30:26
And you've got people there that simply trespassed or disorderly conduct, and were
30:32
in solitary confinement or right confined.
30:34
I think the, good thing, at least for the people that deserved, some time
30:40
and that did assault your officers, at least they spent some day, some jail
30:44
time for sure before that happened.
30:47
Steven Sund: Yeah, because, the, some of the injuries, I know a
30:50
Montgomery County officer that won't return, and we got a Capitol Police
30:53
officer and won't return to service.
30:55
It just, it wasn't necessary.
30:58
We didn't, but anyway, I don't know what the, those people that were involved in
31:02
that, what their, their motives were.
31:04
But, again, like you said, some people deserved it, some people didn't
31:07
deserve the, the extensive time.
31:09
And, I've been in policing in D.C. for 30 years.
31:11
I've never seen, jail sentences like that.
31:16
in my entire career.
31:18
Craig Floyd: One of the problems though in this country is that we are not tough
31:21
enough on those who do assault, police officers and, that's a, sin really.
31:28
It's disgraceful that we don't support our officers, in, those situations.
31:33
So clearly there is a a line, of distinction as you point out between some
31:38
of the rioters who were not assaulting officers, but certainly others did,
31:43
and, they deserve to be, to face the toughest penalties, I believe personally.
31:48
Steve, I'm interested in this, you've been through a lot in your career, and then you
31:54
had to face maybe your toughest challenge, of your career on January 6th, 2021.
32:00
What advice would you give to, other chiefs who might face a similar crisis?
32:06
Sometimes politically motivated, but any crisis along the lines
32:11
of the, type of riot or situation that you had to deal with.
32:15
Steven Sund: Wow.
32:17
That's interesting because I've been thinking a lot about what our
32:20
chiefs are going through right now.
32:22
Chiefs really need to focus on the reason they're there, to
32:26
provide, to protect the community.
32:29
take bad people off the streets, and look out for the men and women that
32:32
are doing an incredible job, out there.
32:37
Really focus on that and keep politics out of it.
32:40
And I'm gonna get to your question here in just a sec. big concern I have
32:43
right now is when you look at, what, how the, a whole hiring process for
32:47
chiefs right now, you get the city council or a mayor, they'll, they're
32:51
the ones hiring the, hiring firm.
32:53
So they set the standards, they set, why they wanna get the person in there and are
32:56
you hiring chiefs for the right reason?
32:58
You wanna make sure you get chiefs in there, like I said,
33:01
to, protect your community.
33:02
Take bad guys off and help, put 'em before the judicial system.
33:05
And make sure the men and women that are working for them are getting properly
33:08
trained, equipped, and put out there.
33:10
I would, I'd say any chief that's faced with a critical incident like this, be
33:16
very cautious of who's giving you advice.
33:19
Everyone's gonna give you advice based on what they're looking to get out of it.
33:23
That's something I look back on, different people that came to
33:25
me even, within my close circle.
33:29
That came to me with some advice and wondering why did they gimme the type
33:33
of advice that they gave me at the time.
33:35
Like I told people if I, if, I knew then what I know now,
33:40
I would've never resigned.
33:42
Just be prepared.
33:43
You never know.
33:44
It could be a traffic's not gotten bad.
33:46
It could be not even something your officers do.
33:47
It could be, something that, that comes up on social media, that had
33:52
nothing to do with an officer's action.
33:53
Next thing, your day's turned upside down and your whole career is online.
33:58
Just, be prepared.
34:00
Have a core group of people that you trust absolutely that you can go to.
34:04
You trust their opinion, and have 'em on speed dial, and be ready to talk to them.
34:10
But, just ultimately make sure that if you do, if the stuff hits the fan, sit
34:14
back, analyze it from a distance as best you can, take care of yourself 'cause
34:18
you're gonna go through some tough times and take really good notes, because
34:24
ultimately you, you are gonna look back.
34:26
It's gonna be crazy for a little while.
34:28
But then when you finally, start, being able to think a little
34:30
clearly, you are gonna wanna make sure that you did everything right.
34:34
and if you didn't but just make sure you're keeping really good notes, and be,
34:39
Bill Erfurth: You know, Steve Sta Yeah.
34:41
Saying all this, I just wanna say, Nothing is more important than
34:45
leadership and a strong leader that's that has the backs of their people.
34:50
And unfortunately, the politics are so ingrained in all this
34:55
that's just not happening.
34:57
You're looking around the country at different incidents and that chiefs
35:01
are being hired because of their ethnicity, their sexuality, whether
35:08
they got a D or an R behind there.
35:11
Their name and, and they and the people that are the political.
35:18
Leaders want those people to be their lackies basically.
35:21
And somehow or another, we're gonna have to get around that.
35:24
We're talking about chiefs, and this is an interesting question and nobody
35:27
probably has more insight than you for all the years that you worked at Metro D.C.,
35:31
but the chief right now is stepping down from Metro D.C. and has been accused of
35:36
cooking the books and not reporting crime statistics fairly, basically covering them
35:43
up and that report just recently came out.
35:46
I wonder what you think about that.
35:48
Steven Sund: So my, concern is, when you look at crime and the
35:52
statistics, it's way too subjective.
35:55
And I've talked to officials on the, on the department, some of
35:58
the officials that were testifying.
36:00
I've, talked to matter of fact, down on the hill, about this.
36:04
And when you look at it, The chief needs to realize, and whoever was pressuring
36:08
the chief, if someone was, but the chief needs to realize, their number one job
36:13
is to protect the community, to take bad people off the streets of the community.
36:17
If you've got a crime problem, you gotta face that crime problem because,
36:20
I hate to say it, by going through and there's a city council, leg had
36:24
passed legislation that allowed almost for an intermediate type of charge,
36:28
from what I understand, that someone could say, Hey, this person was, shot.
36:32
That's for, me, I look at it, that's A-D-W assault with a deadly weapon.
36:36
That's gonna be, a DW violent crime.
36:38
It's gonna go on your stats.
36:39
They could change it to a, unlawful endangerment charge.
36:43
What the hell is that?
36:45
So you're now going to have an unlawful endangerment charge.
36:47
So if you find a suspect, what do you charge him with A-D-W
36:49
or unlawful endangerment.
36:51
And is he gonna be taken off the streets?
36:53
'cause now he's not gonna be part of your part one offenses, things like that.
36:57
You're not doing your citizens the justice they deserve.
36:59
So by watering down charges and making your city look safer, and I don't think
37:05
this is just gonna be Washington D.C. I think you're gonna see this in other
37:07
areas because it's too subjective.
37:10
You're doing it, it's extreme disservice to your community.
37:13
You're allowing, criminals to walk free.
37:16
You're, allowing the community not to realize and just how unsafe it is.
37:20
And people have always said, crime's down 24% violent crime in
37:24
Washington D.C. It sure doesn't feel that way because they were right.
37:28
The perception was it was still a violent city.
37:31
And they're now finding out that if you look at the FBI part one offenses,
37:35
violent crime was actually up, what, 1.6%.
37:38
So the, their perception was right.
37:39
So regardless, people's perceptions, tells everything, by cooking, cooking
37:44
the books or whatever you wanna call it.
37:46
Pressuring, some of the, some of the officials and, again, when you have seven.
37:50
District commanders come down and seven district commanders
37:52
all testify to the same thing.
37:54
There's where there's smoke, there's fire.
37:55
So I, think there's something to it.
37:58
I'm thankful when I was at MPD and I was a, commander, I ran
38:01
their special operations division.
38:03
You notice they call down the seven patrol districts, not the commanders
38:05
special operation because that's just, we don't, keep crime stats.
38:08
We don't report crime stats because that's just not what we do.
38:12
And I'm just awfully glad right now that I was never in that position.
38:17
Dennis Collins: Let me track that.
38:17
My, lemme track back to the answer you gave to Craig.
38:21
Steve, he asked you what advice would you give to chiefs, these days?
38:27
And, the political situation is what it is.
38:30
I don't know if we're gonna change that anytime soon.
38:33
Unfortunately, it is what it is, but I got a high, I don't want
38:36
this to get lost in what you said.
38:39
You just gave a, about a, two minute course on leadership.
38:46
Okay.
38:46
I teach a lot of leaders in my private practice.
38:49
I consult with a lot of businesses.
38:51
I'm gonna take what you said, if you don't mind.
38:53
Can I take that?
38:55
Sure.
38:55
Absolutely.
38:55
have the core group around you that you trust?
38:58
Yeah.
39:00
Oh yeah.
39:00
Who do you trust?
39:01
And that's a damn that sounds like an easy question, doesn't it?
39:04
That's not an easy question.
39:06
Who do you trust?
39:07
No, it's not.
39:07
And analyze the situation.
39:09
Sit back.
39:11
most of the people that I work with, they're not in life or death situations.
39:16
Nobody's gonna die.
39:18
But the business may be in jeopardy, jobs could be in jeopardy.
39:21
So there's some, consequences.
39:24
But if you, as a police chief can pull back, sit back and say, okay,
39:28
what the hell's going on here?
39:30
Can't a business owner do the same thing instead of just reacting?
39:34
And how many of them just react?
39:36
I like the idea about notes, and your book, which we've
39:40
referenced several times.
39:42
Your book is an absolute tribute to the notes that you
39:46
took because it's all there.
39:49
What is wrong with some of our business owners?
39:52
They're not taking notes.
39:53
They're not making records.
39:55
I always had a saying when I was running businesses, if it isn't
39:59
in writing, it didn't happen.
40:01
It didn't happen, so I just wanna highlight that because, that
40:06
was a mini course in leadership and wow, lesson learned.
40:10
You ought to be out there on the stump speaking to leaders.
40:13
That's, we gotta put you out.
40:14
Craig Floyd: Dennis, the other thing that I took away, from what he said was, and
40:18
this is particularly true, I think, in public safety and law enforcement, when
40:22
you have to deal with a crisis that, overwhelms your officers, your department,
40:28
you have to have relationships with you.
40:30
Or neighbors, other colleagues and other jurisdictions nearby
40:35
so they can come to help you, and come to rescue you if needed.
40:40
And thankfully Steve had, as you said at the introduction, 30 years of law
40:45
enforcement experience, he had built.
40:47
All these contacts and relationships, and he was able to rely on them
40:53
when he needed them the most.
40:54
I know that's ultimately in our last interview, what you deemed to be the,
40:59
the answer to, the crisis was you were able to get help from your friends at
41:04
neighboring, law enforcement agencies, and they ultimately saved the day since
41:09
you weren't able to get the National Guard that you wanted in the first place.
41:12
Steve, I, wanna maybe draw some conclusion here.
41:16
But I don't want it to end without you talking about the impact this,
41:22
January 6th episode the aftermath has had on you personally, on
41:26
your family, on your career.
41:30
we all agree that you were, the scapegoat, you were basically
41:34
dismissed the day after January 6th.
41:36
You didn't have a chance to do a, debrief, to, get to the bottom
41:42
of what happened, what could we have done differently, et cetera.
41:45
You were let go.
41:46
And it hurt you personally in, in a big way.
41:49
I know you're a great man.
41:51
You've handled it beautifully, very gracefully, courageously.
41:55
But te tell our audience, what it was like to have to basically, be
42:00
dismissed the day after all this happened and, you lost a pension that
42:05
you were gonna soon be eligible for.
42:08
Your reputation was tarnished, certainly by a lot of what was said in the media
42:12
and a lot of the political, undoing, if you will, help us understand
42:19
where you are today and, some of the injustice that was done to you and what
42:23
we're trying to do to get it right.
42:26
Steven Sund: Wow.
42:28
Wow.
42:28
Yeah, I look back on it.
42:30
There's, it, Lot, lot of impact.
42:35
It's interesting when I 12:53 when we get attacked on West Front
42:39
and I start making those calls and I'm not getting the support I
42:41
thought would be an easy support.
42:43
I, like I said, I felt a shock go through my body and only recently do
42:47
I feel that has really re reduced.
42:50
I used to almost think, Hey, it's almost gone.
42:53
we start talking about it now and I can, I, can feel it start rising back up.
42:56
Just anxiety and stuff like that associated with it.
42:59
So it's there, but yeah.
43:00
When you think about your family, you think about your wife, I would,
43:03
that'd be another thing I'd say, whether it's a business leader,
43:05
whether it's a chief of police.
43:07
Do not underestimate the impact your job is gonna have on your, family.
43:11
Please do not underestimate that for a minute.
43:15
It, it had an individual impact on all my kids.
43:18
I had, two kids that were, under under the age of 18 at the time, one daughter
43:23
that, was, right around that age, that it impacted all of them differently.
43:29
And I've had a chance to talk to them.
43:31
And I talked a little bit about it in the book, with it,
43:34
but don't underestimate that.
43:35
For me, again, that a lot of communications.
43:39
Thank God I'm a, big family man.
43:41
I'm a, man of faith, that have helped me through it.
43:45
for me, you talked about, getting stripped out the very next day.
43:48
I, that was what it was so perplexing to me.
43:50
Why so quickly, why the quick hatchet job, not involved in any after action,
43:56
not involved in any of the use of force, anything like that, and, pulled
44:00
away and literally just cut off.
44:02
I, I'm very thankful.
44:03
I've got a core group of officers that reached out to me regularly,
44:06
that helped me out a lot.
44:08
But, just be prepared for that.
44:11
exercising can help me through.
44:12
You talked about the, pension.
44:14
I'm still working to, try and get it back because, ultimately they, they came
44:18
back, the 17 law enforcement agencies.
44:21
I called in and again, I can't stress enough the importance of
44:24
those relationships 'cause my, law enforcement brethren we're asking,
44:29
do you have an emergency declaration?
44:30
It is just abiding by the law.
44:32
They were like, where do you need me?
44:33
How quick?
44:35
So when you, look at that, the very next day, I'm pulled out.
44:39
lose the, the retirement.
44:41
the 17 agencies I called in, end up getting awarded.
44:46
And here I am sitting, all alone at home and we're gonna try and
44:50
get that, that pension back.
44:51
So I've got a number of members of Congress.
44:53
I was just back on the hill, week before last, meeting with
44:56
another member of Congress, trying to get some more people behind.
44:59
You know them, coming back saying, Hey, I was the one guy that tried
45:02
to prevent January 6th in advance.
45:04
I was the one guy that tried to prevent it while we're under attack.
45:06
And I'm the one guy that actually was publicly held accountable
45:09
and stripped outta my position.
45:11
Something, I'd like to see some type of correction there.
45:14
we'll see.
45:15
I just, honestly, I think this is gonna take a little bit of, support from
45:19
the executive office of the president.
45:21
I know Speaker Johnson's office is aware of it and, don't seem to be
45:24
getting a whole lot of support there.
45:26
So, we'll see what goes.
45:27
Bill Erfurth: I mean, Steve, ultimately don't you feel, and truly I think a lot
45:31
of people that pay attention and have half a brain realize it was just part of
45:35
the plan and you were collateral damage had nothing to do with you personally.
45:41
Steven Sund: Yeah.
45:41
Yeah.
45:41
And again, I, one thing I'd also tell leaders never take anything personal.
45:45
I, try to take it personally.
45:47
It's interesting because, we now know and, the chief that took over
45:51
after me, Tom Manger, has actually come out and he testified that was
45:55
absolutely an intelligence failure.
45:58
Yet you're gonna take the assistant chief that ran intelligence and make her the
46:02
acting chief after you get rid of me.
46:04
You sit there and you wonder, why did it work out that way?
46:06
That just doesn't make any sense.
46:08
Bill Erfurth: I'll say it because she was a DEI appointee.
46:10
Come on.
46:11
We all know this.
46:12
Steven Sund: If you look at after action reports, what are
46:14
the, two things you always see?
46:15
You always see communications is an issue and intelligence.
46:18
If that's the case, bring somebody in from the outside, bring a former chief,
46:22
somebody like that, make them acting.
46:23
If that's the case, absolutely, but keep the other people there
46:26
so you can actually have access to 'em and do a proper investigation.
46:29
Don't try to elevate this person into a take a position.
46:32
Then when she doesn't get the position, you're gonna give her a
46:34
job somewhere out in California.
46:36
It just, it gets really suspect the way that kind of played out.
46:40
Dennis Collins: Do you think?
46:42
Steven Sund: But, again, you I, still think policing is a very
46:46
honorable and normal profession.
46:48
I'm thankful for groups like, like Craig and your team with Citizens
46:51
Behind the Badge, what you do.
46:53
They need as much support as possible, but we need, good
46:56
leadership in these positions.
46:58
Whether it's, the City Council, whether it's the Capitol Police Board, they
47:01
oversee them, give them a fair shake,
47:06
treat them appropriately.
47:06
And if something doesn't go right, investigate it a fact appropriately.
47:11
If people need to be held accountable, hold 'em accountable.
47:13
But do an appropriate investigation, and, correct the problem.
47:18
And, I still, to be honest with you, don't think that's ever occurred,
47:21
down on the Capitol for January 6th.
47:23
Bill Erfurth: Steve, today, as we said, as we sit here and talk specifically,
47:27
are you happy Camper is life good?
47:32
Steven Sund: So my son's asked me, wow, dad, you you, got a book out there.
47:36
I guess January 6th wasn't all that bad.
47:38
I would've, I would turn back the clock in a heartbeat, in an absolute heartbeat.
47:45
I'm, am I happy camper?
47:47
It's still, I think about it every day.
47:49
I really do.
47:50
I wish it, never occurred, which it never, was a part of my life.
47:55
But it, happened.
47:56
So we're gonna try and we're gonna, we're gonna move forward.
47:59
The things that are happen that are beginning to happen now are, big, change.
48:03
I'm working with some companies doing some stuff to really try and address
48:06
some of the biggest issues facing law enforcement and, in, our security right
48:10
now, which I, I, and joining, you talked about, Dennis, leadership, I get some
48:16
requests to go out and talk to people about leadership and I love that.
48:19
I love getting out and, talking to folks.
48:22
and whether it's about J-6 or it's about, special event management,
48:25
national special security events.
48:27
Things like that.
48:27
I like that.
48:28
So I like the change that is now, here we are five years later, beginning to happen.
48:32
And, I really enjoy that, that's, that, that's, that's where I'm
48:35
getting back into my stride.
48:36
Dennis Collins: Good to hear you deserve that.
48:38
You deserve that.
48:40
You said, something that hit me again.
48:42
don't take it personally.
48:45
That's great advice.
48:46
But it's real hard to do, isn't it?
48:48
It's real hard to do because damn it is personal.
48:51
It is personal and it's very hard to remove yourself
48:55
sometimes from that situation.
48:57
So I give you all the credit for being able to do that.
49:01
You've had to do that.
49:03
And I understand it's still with you, but somehow you have figured
49:06
out a way to move without it.
49:08
And I predict things are gonna get better and better for you as time goes on.
49:12
So that, that's what I, feel.
49:14
But I want, I wanna thank you again.
49:15
We're gonna have to build you your own studio.
49:17
You've become like a regular on this podcast.
49:21
Come on Craig.
49:21
Let's build Steve a studio.
49:23
Craig Floyd: Yeah.
49:24
for it.
49:25
He's, my favorite guest.
49:26
sure.
49:27
You, he does it so well.
49:28
Dennis Collins: What can I say other than thank you for sharing at the
49:32
very level of your heart and soul.
49:35
You, we asked some tough questions and you gave us some real authentic
49:39
answers and that's what our audience on this podcast likes.
49:43
They liked the truth and we promise to bring them the truth.
49:46
Steven Sund: I've always told people, I'll answer the
49:48
question as best I can if I can.
49:50
I'm gonna tell you why I can't.
49:51
I don't have the knowledge.
49:53
I'll be, honest about it.
49:54
Dennis Collins: I don't think there's ever a question we've asked you in
49:56
the hours that we've spent with you that you haven't tackled and given.
50:01
Again, the best answer you can give, and that's all we can ask.
50:04
That's all you can do.
50:06
So, I want to thank you on behalf of, Billy and Craig and Citizens Behind
50:10
the Badge, thanks for joining us again.
50:13
This is always informative.
50:14
We always get behind the scenes when we talk to Steve Sund.
50:18
We don't just get the surface right, we get behind the scenes,
50:21
especially when er starts asking all those hard questions, man, I'm
50:25
glad he is not asking me questions.
50:28
I'd be afraid.
50:29
Steven Sund: Again.
50:30
I, appreciate it and I appreciate all the, the support and, the work.
50:33
you guys do, honestly.
50:35
The, men and women that are out there patrolling every day, and, Craig,
50:38
I know you're just down with the National Transportation Highway Safety
50:41
Administration talking about the threats to our officers just when they're
50:46
patrolling, the number of officers that are involved in, in, in accidents out on
50:50
the highways and things like that, and the number of deaths that's, I was, wow.
50:54
I was blown away with the number of deaths we had.
50:57
You know it, great profession.
50:58
We just need more people like what you guys do.
51:01
Awesome.
51:02
Dennis Collins: We appreciate that and I wanna remind our viewers and our
51:04
listeners, heroes Behind The Badge is a Frequently Heard podcast and it's
51:10
sponsored by Citizens Behind the Badge.
51:12
Craig Floyd is our founder, CEO and Chairman Bill Erfurth
51:16
and I are founding directors.
51:18
You can go to Citizens Behind the badge dot O-R-G and you can find out all there
51:24
is to know about Citizens Behind the Badge as Chief Sund just said, join us.
51:30
Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people are joining us every
51:33
month to support the men and women of law enforcement.
51:38
Citizens Behind the Badge is the leaning voice of the American people in support
51:42
of the men and women of law enforcement.
51:45
And you can get involved at the click of a button, Citizens
51:49
Behind the badge dot O-R-G.
51:50
Subscribe, follow, like all of the above.
51:55
And by the way, when you do that, you become an insider.
51:58
Not only do you get to see how to support police, but you get an instant
52:02
notification when we drop a new episode, and that's often, and I guarantee
52:07
you we're gonna have more and more like Steve, if you like what Steve
52:10
Sund had to say today, subscribe.
52:13
Follow.
52:13
Okay, that's all for this edition up.
52:15
Heroes Behind the Badge.
52:16
We'll see you next time.
52:18
Thank you.
52:19
Steven Sund: Thank you.