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A veteran project manager highlights the value of engaging communities · Talking Michigan Transportation

• 0:08
  Jeff Cranson: Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast.
• 0:11
  Jeff Cranson: I'm Jeff Cranson, .
• 0:17
  Jeff Cranson: You've heard him before on the podcast.
• 0:20
  Jeff Cranson: He's a repeat visitor.
• 0:21
  Jeff Cranson: This week he's being honored by the Engineering Society of Detroit.
• 0:25
  Jeff Cranson: I thought I would use that as an opportunity to speak with him again about all that he's done for the department as a senior project manager and why he's been so successful with so many, you know, really difficult things Most recently, the Gordie Howe International Bridge come into fruition.
• 0:44
  Jeff Cranson: But he's actually been involved in a lot more than that and his portfolio now includes a lot more than that.
• 0:49
  Jeff Cranson: And really what I wanted to talk to him about is how important it is to build relationships and build trust.
• 0:56
  Jeff Cranson: I once created a presentation on public involvement just based on Mohammed and what he does.
• 1:03
  Jeff Cranson: I called it Trusted Voices and Deploying Muhammad.
• 1:05
  Jeff Cranson: So I hope you enjoy the conversation.
• 1:07
  Jeff Cranson: So, Mohammed, welcome back to the podcast.
• 1:11
  Jeff Cranson: I appreciate you taking time, as always, to talk with us.
• 1:14
  Jeff Cranson: Thank you, Jeff.
• 1:15
  Jeff Cranson: It's always a pleasure to be with you.
• 1:17
  Jeff Cranson: So I mentioned in the intro that one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you this week was because you're being honored by the Engineering Society of Detroit and its board of directors as the 2024 Distinguished Service Award winner.
• 1:31
  Jeff Cranson: That's awesome, Congratulations.
• 1:34
  Jeff Cranson: Tell me you know how that came to be.
• 1:38
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Thank you so much, Jeff.
• 1:39
  Mohammed Alghurabi: It is definitely an honor.
• 1:41
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I am very proud of that organization, that society.
• 1:47
  Mohammed Alghurabi: They do amazing things.
• 1:49
  Mohammed Alghurabi: They do things that are close to my heart reaching out to the underserved communities, people, folks try to spread the knowledge.
• 2:06
  Mohammed Alghurabi: They do a lot of classes to prepare folks for their professional engineering license.
• 2:15
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I've known about ESZ from the time I was in school at Wayne State in the early 80s and that's one of the society that I really wanted to join and I did join them.
• 2:27
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So there are several things that I try my best.
• 2:35
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I mean, there's so much you can do but help the society to reach across the different areas and to leverage more folks to join.
• 2:49
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And, for example, I've realized that from doing a tour to the Gordie Howe that there are a lot of members or folks are folks that are Canadians but are working in Detroit and vice versa.
• 3:10
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So one of the things that I think the society is looking into the possibility of reaching out to Windsor and Ontario and try to have more diversity and inclusion and having more members from across the river, which are probably the best neighbor, best partner that we could ever have.
• 3:37
  Mohammed Alghurabi: We learned all that, as you know, Jeff, from going through the project the Gordie Howe in the last 20 years from going through the project, the Gordie Howe, in the last 20 years.
• 3:49
  Jeff Cranson: So, yeah, so, speaking of the Gordie Howe and obviously that's been your baby for the past really almost 20 years in terms of laying the groundwork early on and trying to make it happen and going through a lot of political machinations, all while you were doing a lot in community involvement.
• 4:02
  Jeff Cranson: So that's important.
• 4:04
  Jeff Cranson: That's a big part of your portfolio now, but your portfolio is expanding and what I really want to talk about and get people to understand is the things they don't teach you in engineering school the so-called soft skills and how to build relationships and how to build trust.
• 4:20
  Jeff Cranson: And I've watched you up close and very personally when MDOT was, on behalf of Canada, acquiring land for the Gordie Howe International Bridge on the Detroit side, and some of the neighbors even while they conceded that they'd be better off financially and be better off in terms of where they were going to live, they struggled with moving.
• 4:44
  Jeff Cranson: It's still hard, especially if you've been there your whole life and if you're of a certain age, you know it's still your home and one woman in particular, mrs Finn, was having a really hard time with it and when you came along and she remembered you from previous meetings.
• 4:59
  Jeff Cranson: She just melted.
• 5:01
  Jeff Cranson: She said oh Mohammed, thank you, do you really think you know this is the best thing?
• 5:06
  Jeff Cranson: And and you assured her that it was, and it it always reminds me of an episode in in the TV show Cheers, where Norm was assigned to be the hatchet man for a company and he was supposed to fire people and he was so distraught and so so forlorn when he would meet with these people that they ended up comforting him, and so forlorn when he would meet with these people that they ended up comforting him.
• 5:24
  Jeff Cranson: And that's what I've watched with you.
• 5:27
  Jeff Cranson: How does that come to be that empathy and that genuine concern for the people, and talk about just how important it is to build that kind of respect?
• 5:36
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Very well put and this is probably one of the closest topics to my heart.
• 5:41
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I am very emotional when it comes to learning about people conversing with people, so I'll give you an example.
• 5:59
  Mohammed Alghurabi: It wasn't easy.
• 6:00
  Mohammed Alghurabi: It was something that I had to learn the hard way.
• 6:03
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So this is picture this.
• 6:04
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I'm in Delray, southwest Detroit.
• 6:05
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I'm in Delray, southwest Detroit, a community that has been underserved and had been going through a lot of trials and tribulations.
• 6:16
  Mohammed Alghurabi: You know, for example, you know being so close to Marathon Refinery, very close to Detroit Water and Sewage, one of the largest facilities in the country.
• 6:26
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Third, you have Zagail, where they make steel, I mean.
• 6:31
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And then, of course, I come in from Lansing and I say I'm from the government and I'm here to help you.
• 6:37
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I want to build a new international bridge.
• 6:40
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And the look on the people, the concern that people expressed.
• 6:47
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I was Jeff, to humble myself and tell you the truth; a typical engineer.
• 6:52
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I knew everything about it.
• 6:55
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I have done a lot of research.
• 6:57
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I have the technical skillset.
• 7:00
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I am going to tell the people what I know and I think they should be very happy with it, and they taught me the hard way that that's not the case.
• 7:11
  Mohammed Alghurabi: They are the one who should be teaching us, because it's their area, it's their neighborhood, this is where they work, they play, they live, they make memories and to them that area is everything because it's multigenerational, so you know.
• 7:29
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So the idea is someone like me that, yes, a professional engineer has the technical skills but doesn't have the like you called it, Jeff, perfectly set, I mean suited is the soft skills, which is the most important thing.
• 7:47
  Mohammed Alghurabi: If you're going to be a project manager, you really need to have that soft skill and learn it, whether it's the hard way or you learn it from someone who is mentoring you.
• 7:57
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So, long story short, I give it all to the community of Delray.
• 8:00
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I give it all to the community of Delray.
• 8:03
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Over the last 20 years I've learned so much and I am so grateful that I could stay on that project and be the face of the project, because it's hard when you do that kind of work and then you move on and then the community have to face a new person.
• 8:29
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So I think it helped it a lot that I was, I was, I was fortunate enough that I could say in my role with the department and representing the department on the on the Gordie Howe.
• 8:34
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So again, thank you for asking me the question.
• 8:37
  Mohammed Alghurabi: This is very close to my heart.
• 8:39
  Jeff Cranson: Well, that heavy lifting and relationship building and, you know, salving the wounds from the way people had been treated previously, is what helped us get to where we are now, and we'll be celebrating with Canada very soon the actual physical connection of the bridge over the river.
• 8:59
  Jeff Cranson: We're looking forward to that and we're just a little more than a year away from the opening.
• 9:04
  Jeff Cranson: We're looking forward to that and we're just a little more than a year away from the opening, and it's nothing, nothing but good to say about that, and and you have a lot to do with that.
• 9:12
  Jeff Cranson: But let's talk about other things, you know, talk about some other highlights of your time at MDOT.
• 9:16
  Jeff Cranson: You were the project manager on the last freeway to be built in the state and I think people might forget that it's been more than 20 years since M6 south of Grand Rapids was built and since then, you know, all we've been doing is trying to maintain what we have.
• 9:31
  Jeff Cranson: A lot of people would be surprised by that, but the road building they see going on is the rebuilding of old roads.
• 9:37
  Jeff Cranson: I guess one exception to that would be M231, which is a two lane, not a freeway the Grand Haven bypass, but M6 still stands as the last freeway built in Michigan.
• 9:47
  Jeff Cranson: Talk about your experience there.
• 9:51
  Mohammed Alghurabi: My experience with the South Belt line was so, so positive in so many ways.
• 9:57
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Again, I'll be honest with you, jeff.
• 10:00
  Mohammed Alghurabi: What I remember, not the one of the state-of-the-art interchange I-96 with M6, the type of structure, not all the different things that we had to do in terms of innovation and getting the best engineering possible.
• 10:20
  Mohammed Alghurabi: That's all good and impossible.
• 10:29
  Mohammed Alghurabi: That's all good.
• 10:29
  Mohammed Alghurabi: But I remember my relationship with the townships, my relationship with the city of Grand Rapids, the different communities.
• 10:32
  Mohammed Alghurabi: As you know, jeff, there are so many communities that were impacted by the 20 miles stretch and, again, it was going to be many years.
• 10:45
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Those that can remember I remember vividly it was a scheduled.
• 10:50
  Mohammed Alghurabi: It was in the 90s that the design for the project and it was scheduled to open to traffic in 2008.
• 11:00
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Basically, the governor himself decided or wanted that let's have the two.
• 11:11
  Mohammed Alghurabi: You know, once you complete the environmental impact statement or the environmental process, once you go into design, it's all done.
• 11:38
  Mohammed Alghurabi: That's not true.
• 11:39
  Mohammed Alghurabi: There is so much involvement during the design.
• 11:43
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I remember going and visiting folks at their workplace or their home, explaining to them what the wall is going to do, the noise wall is going to do to them.
• 11:55
  Mohammed Alghurabi: You remember probably also where we were impacting several of their properties and that was adjacent to the new, at the time, m6.
• 12:16
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And again, they were very concerned even during the construction.
• 12:21
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Even during the construction, what is that going to do to the rest of the people who are staying?
• 12:28
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And construction impacts, which we all know?
• 12:30
  Mohammed Alghurabi: It is there, but you have to, you know, work with them and assure them that it will be minimized and avoided as much as possible.
• 12:39
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So yeah, during that era, you know again former John Engler, who really wanted the schedule to be tightened and get things open faster, which still created I mean, obviously, impact on the community.
• 12:56
  Mohammed Alghurabi: But we learned again so much from that because the cooperation was so good, because the cooperation was so good.
• 13:05
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Once you explain things to people, once you are, you know, truthful transparency, you show them transparency, I think, to most people's expectations, people kind of become a little bit on the defensive.
• 13:20
  Mohammed Alghurabi: But what I found out, Jeff, it's if you're open, if you're sincere, if you're really truly don't have a hidden agenda and you shouldn't I think you will get all the cooperation you need and relationship will stay for years to come.
• 13:39
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And, as you know, I am, I'm excited about our future endeavors that I will be taking on.
• 13:47
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Because the journey continues, we go to the next one, right.
• 13:51
  Jeff Cranson: Well, so that's that goes to the challenge these days, though I think even back then, when you were working on an M6, we didn't live in nearly the fractured media environment that we do now, and there were.
• 14:03
  Jeff Cranson: There were better ways, central ways to reach people with information, and now it's just so difficult because people get their information from so many different places and you just can't have a big public meeting and have a lot of people even know about it to show up and get that information up and get that information.
• 14:27
  Jeff Cranson: You can't just run a legal ad in a newspaper and probably a lot of people don't even know what I'm talking about when I talk about legal ads and tell them that this project is going to happen and we want your input.
• 14:33
  Jeff Cranson: So you have to find new and creative ways to get to people.
• 14:36
  Jeff Cranson: And no matter what you do, there are still going to be people that show up and say, hey, nobody told me this was going on, what are you doing?
• 14:42
  Jeff Cranson: And they're naturally skeptical and distrustful and they think that something's been baked and that you're hiding information.
• 14:49
  Jeff Cranson: And I know you're dealing with that now.
• 14:52
  Jeff Cranson: We're dealing with it as a department, with what's going on with I-375.
• 14:56
  Jeff Cranson: All the transparency in the world still doesn't convince everybody that you're being completely open with them.
• 15:05
  Jeff Cranson: Same thing you're dealing with now helping out with the Michigan Avenue project through Corktown in Detroit and on US 131 in Grand Rapids.
• 15:16
  Jeff Cranson: So it puts more of a burden on you that that public involvement aspect and building trust and helping them understand that look aspect.
• 15:24
  Jeff Cranson: And building trust and helping them understand that look, we're telling you everything and we're going to.
• 15:27
  Jeff Cranson: You know, listen to the last question, the last comment, the last concern, If it.
• 15:32
  Jeff Cranson: You know, if it takes all night.
• 15:34
  Jeff Cranson: We want to hear what you have to say.
• 15:35
  Jeff Cranson: So talk about how you do that and the patience that it takes.
• 15:40
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Jeff, I was so touched and so moved by a comment that you'll remember.
• 15:50
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Former Representative Steve Tabakuman put a message on LinkedIn remembering the days of the DRIC Detroit River International Crossing, the former name of the newly Gordie Howard International Bridge.
• 16:07
  Jeff Cranson: That's two names ago, right.
• 16:09
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Yeah, he was exactly saying that this is so long time ago, my goodness, and now I see you know it's incredible.
• 16:19
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So he was taking the time to celebrate that something that was so much time was spent on it.
• 16:26
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And again I want to write back because it's but I will.
• 16:31
  Mohammed Alghurabi: But I want to write back and say Representative, if it wasn't for your, your involvement, your passion, your care, and there are so many others but, for example, every time I turn around and look what Steve is doing he's helping communities, he's working with the Southwest Detroit and he's working with different, embracing those that need the help.
• 16:58
  Mohammed Alghurabi: He could have chose corporate, you know America type of job, but he chose to spend time with the people now.
• 17:09
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So, to answer your question very precisely, in all those different projects you mentioned, the key is to try to find the people who are the closest to that community.
• 17:25
  Mohammed Alghurabi: In other words, we found, as you know, Simone Zakovic for the Gordie Howe.
• 17:33
  Mohammed Alghurabi: She is someone tireless, thoughtful.
• 17:37
  Mohammed Alghurabi: She gave her heart and soul to the community of Southwest Detroit, Delray.
• 17:41
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So when we partnered with her and earned her trust and she earned our trust, that gave us a tool that it cannot be replaced by anything else, all the things that you mentioned.
• 17:58
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Whether it's the internet, you know ads.
• 18:01
  Mohammed Alghurabi: They are nothing compared to the word of mouth because, as we all know, the best advertising is word of mouth, and it's still today, even with all the technology that is out there.
• 18:13
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So, again, whether it's a US 12, former councilwoman, sheila Cockrell, she's playing an incredible role, helping guiding the department to move and the city of Detroit to move in the right direction.
• 18:27
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Whether it's on the Gordy, simone Sagovic, whether it's in Windsor, sandwich Town, that's Marianne Kutterman, and there are others.
• 18:37
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Don't get me wrong.
• 18:38
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I'm probably leaving off some other names, but I'm giving an example of someone that is from the community, speaks the community language, able to partner with us and move mountains.
• 18:53
  Jeff Cranson: We'll be right back.
• 18:54
  Jeff Cranson: Stay tuned.
• 18:55
  Jeff Cranson: If you need to get out and stretch your legs, don't forget about the annual Mackinac Bridge Walk.
• 19:00
  Jeff Cranson: Make your plans to attend the walk on Labor Day and take in some of the best views in the state of Michigan on the Mighty Mac.
• 19:07
  Jeff Cranson: For more information, go to Mackinacbridge.
• 19:09
  Jeff Cranson: org/W alk.
• 19:11
  Jeff Cranson: to
• 19:23
  Jeff Cranson: To set up those projects and what we call planning and environmental linkages studies for both Michigan Avenue, us 12 in Detroit and US 131 in Grand Rapids is that we're doing all this in the same challenged funding environment.
• 19:33
  Jeff Cranson: Michigan has underfunded transportation infrastructure for decades.
• 19:37
  Jeff Cranson: Everything has to be done with that in mind.
• 19:41
  Jeff Cranson: With the austerity is always paramount in everything, including the planning of these, and people will say that they know that.
• 19:50
  Jeff Cranson: They'll say I know, I know that money is a challenge, but please just do this and everybody's got just this that they want.
• 19:57
  Jeff Cranson: You know everybody's got a wish list and so that's another challenge you have to deal with.
• 20:01
  Jeff Cranson: When you're talking at public meetings about these projects and you hear all the things that that people would like to include in those, whether it's completely rerouting the freeway, you know like let's, let's look at.
• 20:15
  Jeff Cranson: Why can't we do what's being eyed for 375 everywhere?
• 20:19
  Jeff Cranson: You know they have no concept of the billions of dollars that you'd be talking about and decisions that were made 50 and 60 years ago that we have to live with.
• 20:29
  Jeff Cranson: We can try to make improvements and that's what you're trying to do.
• 20:33
  Jeff Cranson: So talk a little bit about that, about what goes into Appell and how that process works.
• 20:42
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I think, Jeff, the struggle is the chicken and the egg.
• 20:47
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Which one comes first?
• 20:49
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So, in other words, you know, when you're trying to get into a situation like the, for example, like you were saying, the US-12 or I-375 or US-131 in Grand Rapids, the question is, how do I engage the public?
• 21:14
  Mohammed Alghurabi: How do I get to know what is out there, really what is out there?
• 21:17
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So the PEL, as you describe it, the planning and environment kind of linkage, it's really like a feasibility study, it's like a study that precedes the environmental process, the environmental process.
• 21:32
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Most people will understand it when I say that's when you get into what we call the C analysis.
• 21:39
  Mohammed Alghurabi: S stands for social, e stands for economic and the second E is for environment.
• 21:47
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And environment could be, you know, physical and natural.
• 21:51
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So what I'm talking about it's pre the C analysis.
• 21:58
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I'm sorry, I'm not trying to get it complicated, but before you get to that, you want to engage the community, you want to hear from them, you want to know it's like, as best as you can, what is out there and what is the common desire.
• 22:14
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And also, in the case of someone saying, I respect it very much.
• 22:20
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So Someone had the idea, heard about this idea in another part of the country where we can take out a freeway and replace it with a boulevard.
• 22:29
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I had this conversation just recently on 131.
• 22:32
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And I told the gentleman, I said, why don't we walk through that and kind of give you a chance?
• 22:41
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And I assured him that we're going to take seriousness in every what we call feasible and prudent alternatives.
• 22:51
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So we studied them from the feasibility Is it something that we can ultimately construct?
• 22:58
  Mohammed Alghurabi: But then the second item is it really financially?
• 23:02
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Is that something that can be actually built from financial standpoint?
• 23:08
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And he really I can't speak for him, but the gentleman kind of appreciated that we are taking this matter very seriously.
• 23:17
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So when the citizen has an idea, we can't just dismiss it just from without giving them the due respect and the explanation as to why we are saying what we're saying.
• 23:32
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And show me you know, it's like the show me state, you know what is it that you're telling them.
• 23:38
  Mohammed Alghurabi: That will explain, you know, support your claim.
• 23:45
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So in summary, I believe that we showing sincerity, showing seriousness, taking the whatever comments we received very serious, and I think that's what we've done in the project that have been successful.
• 24:03
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I have to give our Canadian partners, who play a huge role in the public engagement.
• 24:10
  Mohammed Alghurabi: They do a phenomenal job in listening and showing that they build a trust, showing that they build a trust the community trusts them, in light of all the you know stereotypes that, oh, this is a Canadian project.
• 24:30
  Mohammed Alghurabi: To the contrary, it's US-Canada project, it's.
• 24:34
  Mohammed Alghurabi: We're working together and we showed that by earning the trust of the people.
• 25:04
  Jeff Cranson: Oh, yeah, it's.
• 25:04
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, you can't say that enough.
• 25:05
  Jeff Cranson: It's definitely a US Canada project.
• 25:06
  Jeff Cranson: It's been incredible in doing what Mohammed does and making relationships and building trust.
• 25:09
  Jeff Cranson: But just to be a little more specific, high level for a second talk, first about Michigan Avenue and what the hope for is when that project is completed, and then a little bit about US- 131 in Grand Rapids.
• 25:25
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Thank you so much for even getting a little deeper into this one, because this is close to my heart.
• 25:30
  Mohammed Alghurabi: It became close to my heart very quickly and people will tell me you love every project.
• 25:36
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I said that's true, you know, because I love it's not the project, I love the people.
• 25:40
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I said that's true, you know, because I love it's not the project, I love the people.
• 26:06
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And in this case, bob Roberts, who owns restaurants and he's a businessman and responsible for the for you know, the business association and just very active business owner and cares deeply about what we are about to do on Michigan Avenue between 96 and Campus Martius.
• 26:12
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So basically, in essence, the way it was explained to us by Bob and by the former councilwoman is we have issues and we want to know more about it and obviously we're talking about two center lanes for transit dedicated.
• 26:25
  Mohammed Alghurabi: They wanted to know more, tell me more, when is that going to show me the terminal, show me the, what's the ridership?
• 26:33
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Who's going to be there, and so on and so forth.
• 26:36
  Mohammed Alghurabi: They have a lot of questions and we're working very hard to get those questions answered for them.
• 26:42
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And of course, we have to be in alignment with the city of Detroit because the city is taking on half of that project and leading that project.
• 26:50
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So half is being done, apart from 96 to I think it's I'm trying to remember exactly where it is.
• 27:00
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Jeff to I think it's I'm trying to remember exactly where it is Jeff, but just about a mile and a half, a total of three miles.
• 27:08
  Mohammed Alghurabi: The first mile and a half is MDOT and then the second half is being done by the city.
• 27:12
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And so we sat down and we start working through the issues and, without taking all the time in the right now, all I can say is every issue has a potential solution that is suitable and agreeable by the community.
• 27:30
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Yeah, it's not going to be perfect, but it's going to be something that everybody can live with.
• 27:35
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And I can I cannot tell you enough the cooperation and just the professionalism that those two individuals have shown us in the past couple months, and we're going to continue to build those relationships.
• 27:52
  Mohammed Alghurabi: God willing, it will lead us to the conclusion at the end when everybody will be able to see what we're trying to do when everybody will be able to see what we're trying to do.
• 28:05
  Jeff Cranson: Well, yeah, and the reason you do a very thorough PEL study is to try to take in input from all the various users.
• 28:09
  Jeff Cranson: There's a demand for this growing corridor to be more multimodal, as more people homestead in that area and want to walk or ride their bikes, and you've got businesses that rely on that walking traffic, but it's still a through way for a lot of people.
• 28:26
  Jeff Cranson: For a lot of people it's still a commuter route and then, as you say, part of being multimodal, in addition to bicycling and pedestrian use, is also transit, and Detroit and Wayne County and surrounding areas are trying to do more with that, working with the RTA.
• 28:44
  Jeff Cranson: So it's factoring all that in, balancing it all.
• 28:48
  Jeff Cranson: And, like you said, there's always going to be constituencies that want different things.
• 28:52
  Jeff Cranson: But you keep listening and listening and trying to build as much consensus as you can.
• 28:57
  Jeff Cranson: So that's that.
• 28:59
  Jeff Cranson: As for 131 through downtown, grand Rapids, again built a long time ago when business leaders wanted the freeway to come through the city.
• 29:09
  Jeff Cranson: Some people who, you know, build roads, built roads at the time in the Federal Highway Administration had better ideas about where a freeway should go, and maybe not through downtown, but that's what the leaders at the time wanted.
• 29:24
  Jeff Cranson: And so now it's there and you're trying to kind of reimagine it, how you can still move lots of commercial and lots of commuter traffic but accommodate the people who live there and different needs of a younger, more vibrant community.
• 29:41
  Jeff Cranson: So how are you doing all that?
• 29:45
  Mohammed Alghurabi: We've been talking about it a lot, of course, internally with this and with the City of Grand Rapids.
• 29:51
  Mohammed Alghurabi: City of Grand Rapids is playing a big role on this.
• 29:54
  Mohammed Alghurabi: As you know, Jeff, they are the one who received the grant through the MEDC and they are just gems to work with.
• 30:02
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So they have a lot of ideas in terms of what we need to do to get there.
• 30:07
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So, yes, what we discovered, as you said perfectly during the study the PEL, the planning and environment linkage we discovered that there is a lot of need to do something with those interchanges.
• 30:25
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Obviously, they are so close together.
• 30:27
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So you're talking about Wealthy, you're talking about Cherry and you're talking about MLK.
• 30:32
  Mohammed Alghurabi: They're close together and they are, you know, obviously from the 60s and 50s.
• 30:37
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Those designs, you will never see them today in a new design.
• 30:42
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So they need to be modernized, brought up to standards and make mobility as a theme across that area.
• 30:52
  Mohammed Alghurabi: There's so much that goes in there.
• 30:54
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So many people attracted love to come and spend and play and have fun in Grand Rapids and live in Grand Rapids.
• 31:02
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So we need to hear from the people.
• 31:05
  Mohammed Alghurabi: But what's important, jeff, we cannot take just the interchange and of course, they have ideas Like, for example, the wealthy currently is not that great.
• 31:18
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I mean, it's over 131.
• 31:21
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So 131 is depressed and wealthy is on top and their idea is to make that area more walkable, is to flip that and make the wealthy to be at grade and have the freeway to be on top.
• 31:41
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And again, we need to show them, show the community, the pros and cons with each option.
• 31:47
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So put them all on the table and that's what we're planning.
• 31:51
  Mohammed Alghurabi: To take it to the next step.
• 31:52
  Mohammed Alghurabi: We did a lot during the PEL, but I think during the early study.
• 31:57
  Mohammed Alghurabi: But now we're going to take it further, to assess it.
• 32:00
  Mohammed Alghurabi: But you cannot do it, like I was trying to say is, without understanding 131 itself, because 131 is very dated and requires, you know, modernization.
• 32:13
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So you need to include your analysis with 131, and people will see the full picture when you do it together.
• 32:22
  Mohammed Alghurabi: So we're planning to engage a lot of people.
• 32:27
  Mohammed Alghurabi: We are planning and we're not.
• 32:28
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I think some people think that we're done with this study.
• 32:32
  Mohammed Alghurabi: We're not done.
• 32:32
  Mohammed Alghurabi: We've got a lot more work to do and I want to tell everyone that we're going to be sitting with you at your own meetings, we're going to come to your community, we're going to spend time, not unlike what we just did a couple of weeks ago, where we met in a popular place, place that you can find in the area and community leaders came and we had a great discussion with the city of Grand Rapids, with the city of Grand Rapids, and I plan, we plan, to do this again and again, and again until we have reached that trust.
• 33:05
  Mohammed Alghurabi: And that trust will only come when you build it and work at it.
• 33:11
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, I think that's a good point that you made.
• 33:13
  Jeff Cranson: You gotta knock down the myth that once the PEL is complete that things are done.
• 33:19
  Jeff Cranson: That's really, in some ways, just the beginning of the process.
• 33:22
  Jeff Cranson: So, yeah, and in terms of the wealthy street overpass and doing wealthy at grade, that's something that Suzanne Schultz, the former city planner in Grand Rapids, was talking about years ago.
• 33:35
  Jeff Cranson: She's on the State Transportation Commission now.
• 33:38
  Jeff Cranson: I know that she really likes that at least as one tangible thing that you could do with the freeway through downtown.
• 33:45
  Jeff Cranson: The downtown market is right there near that wealthy street interchange and that would make that more accessible for people coming from further north.
• 33:55
  Jeff Cranson: So there's a lot of good things that could come out of just that component, but it's still got a huge price tag and finding the money for these things is going to be the next challenge.
• 34:03
  Jeff Cranson: But, Mohamed, I think that we've covered a lot for today.
• 34:07
  Jeff Cranson: I want to say congratulations again on the award and I hope that the people who gave it to you realize that it isn't all about you know designing and planning projects and what you do as an engineer, but really what you do as a relationship builder and as a facilitator and how important that is to the work.
• 34:31
  Mohammed Alghurabi: Thank you so much, Jeff.
• 34:32
  Mohammed Alghurabi: I appreciate your time and I appreciate giving me that opportunity talking about a subject that I care about deeply.
• 34:40
  Jeff Cranson: I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation.
• 34:43
  Jeff Cranson: You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Buzzsprout.
• 34:47
  Jeff Cranson: I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Debler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, Courtney Bates, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and Jacke Salinas, who transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.