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Broadcast News with Dave Schilling · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hi listeners. Caitlin here with a quick content warning for
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: this episode. Sexual assault and date rape are brought up
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: in a few different parts of the episode. It's not
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: an extensive part of the movie nor our discussion, but
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: again it is discussed throughout the episode, so we wanted
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: listeners to be aware of that. Enjoyed the episode. On
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have women
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: in them? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: changing it with the bec Del cast. Hey, Caitlin, Yes, Jamie,
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: what do you think the devil looks like? Well, the
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: movie would have you think, or at least the character
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: of Aaron in this movie would have you think that
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: it looks like William Hurt. But I think it looks
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: like Albert Brooks's character. Oh and he's the devil. I
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: think that I the devil looks like who in this movie?
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Who does the devil most look like? This is actually
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: a challenging question. Is it is it Jack Nicholson? Could
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: it be him? He's refused to give up any of
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: his salary to save any anyone else's job. It was
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: all a big joke to him. Oh my gosh, that part.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: I was just like, I can't wait to talk about it. Also, honestly,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: he looks like how I would imagine the Devil would
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: look like, just like eyebrow Wise, do you remember the
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: movie which is of Eastwick where he was play the Devil? Yes?
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: I do. And there's like some production crossover between which
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: is of Eastwick and this movie. It all comes together.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Did Jack Nicholson confirmed the Devil? It's hot here first
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: that he's played the devil. It would have been a
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: real waste of waste of his vibe if he did not.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: At one point, I hate to see a vibe wasted.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: So that's right. Yeah, well that was my little opening.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Although I loved it the Bectel Cast, I was gonna
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: do do you want to hear what I would have done? Yeah,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: if if I were opening it, I would have said
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: breaking news do do do do, and then like done
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: some like news jingle, and then I would have been like,
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: this is the Bechtel Cast. I like it. I like it,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Thank you. I think we have two strong options. I
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: think everyone should sound off in the comments of what
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: they the stronger opening was, and that will be that
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: will be helpful for us moving forward. We love feedback,
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: especially with unsolicited Oh good grief. Okay, well, this is
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: breaking news. This is the Bechdel Cast, and this is
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: our podcast in which we examine movies through an intersectional
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: feminist lens, using the Bechdel Test simply as a jumping
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: off point to initiate a larger conversation. The Bechdel Test
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: being a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel,
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test, in which are standard
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: these days. Two people of a marginalized gender have to
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: have names, they have to speak to each other about
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: something other than a man, and ideally it is a
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: conversation that is narratively meaningful, right, and it's and it
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: really cannot ultimately be about Albert Brooks, which is where
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: I struggled in this one. Uh, there were somewhere I'm
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: like oh, and then it's like, oh, but that was
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: about William Hurt or Albert Brooks, wasn't it? You know?
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: That was What was the name of this new station?
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: What was the name of the fictional w Oh who cares?
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: W who cares? Recovering broadcast news today we are I'm
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: I'm really excited to talk about this movie. There's so
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: much to talk about. There's a lot to unpack, and
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: we have an amazing guest. We certainly do. He's a writer.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: He's a host of the new Polygon podcast Galaxy Brains.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: It's Daveilling. Hello, Welcome. What a pleasure it is to
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: be here today to talk about a movie that is
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: one of my favorites of all time. But I also
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: do believe that it is in fact not going to
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: pass the test. We'll go through it later. But when
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: I racked my brain thinking about this movie that I love,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: that I've seen many times that I own a blue ray,
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: I think no, definitely. First of all, huge flex with
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: the blue ray when someone drops a blue ray physical
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: media baby. Um yeah, Well, I I think I I
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: have um a compulsion towards owning movies that I love
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: because they do disappear often, like they leave streaming services,
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: um for years at a time, sometimes more than that,
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: you know, decades. So I want to make sure that
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: when I want to see my favorite movies, I I
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: have them. For instance, the movie Crossroads, which we always
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: get requests for, but it's literally not not accessible to us.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: It is unavailable. We've even set up episodes for this
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: and then been like, wait a second, this movie has
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: been disappeared. Why is that? I don't know, erased from
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: human existence? You can buy it on DVD, but the
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: DVD is also like sixty dollars. What is going on
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: with that? There's another movie that I think you two
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: should do at some point, um, Catherine Bigelow's movie Strange Days,
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: which was really on my mind quite a bit last
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: summer during during all of the protests and uprisings over
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: the George Floyd killing, because as that movie was about,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: you know, our relationship with law enforcement and all of
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: that stuff, and it's nowhere. You can't buy it on
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: on physical media. You have to you have to find,
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: you know, a used copy on eBay or something. I
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: just happen to have one from college because I was
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: a physical media collector when it mattered back then. But
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: otherwise just unavailable. And it's a shame because that's a
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: movie that people need to be watching right now. That
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: is so I yeah, I've I've never seen it and
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: now I have no options. You can borrow my pan
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: and scan DVD if anyone has copies of either of
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: those movies lying around. We do have a po box.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: I like Crossroads was sorry to go basket to cross Road.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Cross Roads was written by Shonda Rhymes, Like, there's just
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: so much going on for cross Roads. I completely forget
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: what happens in the movie. Maybe it's really fucked up
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: and they don't want us to see it. I don't
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: remember what happens right. I haven't seen it. It feels
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: like I never will because of it being so inaccessible.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: We might be fucked uh So, Dave, you said that
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: Broadcast News is one of your favorite movies of all time.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: What's your history? Boy? I must have seen it for
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: the first time in film school because that was when
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: I first started getting into Albert Brooks movies. Um. You know, Unfortunately,
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: if you are a young film enthusiast at a certain age,
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: you are and you are like me Jewish, I'm I'm
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: I'm Jewish on my mother's side, you are pushed into
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: a filmography of someone who we don't have to talk
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: about that he's out there and he made a lot
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: of movies for people of that ilk and Albert Brooks
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: is was never given that same amount of credibility. With
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: the film community. He was never a box office success,
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: he's never won an Academy Award, but his movies are
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: so much more rewarding than other people playing in this
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: kind of nebushy jewish millie you because in every film
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: that he is in, at least the ones where he's
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: written and directed them or co written them and directed them. Uh,
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: and this one he did not do either, but it's
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: still fit into that sort of vibe. He's the villain,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: he's the bad guy, and I was glad that we
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: got to do this because it does This movie and
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: in his work in general, really underlines certain toxic qualities
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: about the masculine id and the masculine id of people
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: who believe themselves to be smarter or better or more
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: self aware. In reality, they're the least self aware people
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: that there that there is. But he's kind of the
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: fake ally in this movie because he says to Jane, like,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm your best friend, I'm your only friend.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: We have this special connection. He's gaslighting her the entire movie.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: He is manipulating her the entire movie, and he's created
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: this codependent relationship with this person. Uh that is damaging
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: to her to an extreme degree, and I think it's
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: really brave of him to have been willing to play
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: that character in all of these films, and to write
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: and direct movies where he's playing this unlikable character. I
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: think the only movie that he is in that he
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: wrote or co wrote and directed where he's not unlikable
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: is Defending Your Life. But the rest of him, he's
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: kind of like he's the reason why everything is going wrong.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: And I think that's a really laudable, wonderful thing. And
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: uh so that's one of the reasons why I love
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: this movie is it it shines light on certain things
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: that we don't like to talk about about masculinity. Yeah, totally.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: He didn't write or direct this movie, but a different
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Brooks did, Yeah, James L. Brooks, which I was like,
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: are they related? And I don't think they are. They're not.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: James L. Brooks though, was in another film that Albert
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Brooks is and one of Albert Brooks's directorial efforts, Modern Romance.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: He plays a film director. Um I don't believe he's
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: playing himself, but he does play a film director in
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: that movie. Um. So they were kind of friends from
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: the comedy community of that time. A kind of alternative
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: comedy scene of that moment um. And I believe that
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: he was also in um he was in terms of
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: endearment before this too, Like, yeah, there's all sorts of
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: fun overlap. It seems like James L. Brooks really, I
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: mean I I sort of knew this, but you know,
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: in researching the production of this movie, I was like, Oh,
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: he has like a crew that he works with over
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: the course of like what like forty years at this point. Yeah,
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: and co creator of the Simpsons, And that's one of
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: the reasons why Albert Brooks was in so many Simpsons
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: episodes in the early part of the run of that show. Wow, Jamie,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: what's your relationship in history with this movie? I liked
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: this movie. I think I also first saw it in college.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: I remember liking it then, and I didn't revisit it
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: for a long time after, and then I don't I
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: think it was. It wasn't until a friend of the cast,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Karina Longworth, put out an amazing season of her show
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: You must remember this last year about Polly Platt, who
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: was really integral in this movie, worked with James L.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Brooks a lot and produced this movie. And when I
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: was listening to that series. I think, like last summer
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: or fall, I was watching kind of her filmography as
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: I was listening, and so I revisited this movie and
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: was like pretty blown away by it and was really
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: excited to revisit it for this show. I think that
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: this would have been kind of my introduction to most
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: of these actors. When I saw these I wasn't like
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: a huge film buff in high school or anything. I
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: was very very normal in my tastes. I take no
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: shame in it, but it but it was true. Like
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: to before I saw this movie, I was like, like,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: literally most of these people were Pixar characters to me,
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: because Albert Brooks is the dad and finding Nemo and
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: Holly Hunter is Mr is incredible. So long story short,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: I've I've never worked in broadcast news, but I have
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: worked in news news, and it was really interesting to
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: watch after having some experience in that space, and I'm
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: really excited to talk about it. What about you, Caitlin,
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: I too, saw this movie for the first time in
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: film school and push on. Yet they really want film
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: students to watch broadcast news. I think it's one of
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: the only movies they want to show that's like entertaining.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: It's like, oh, this is funny. We're gonna show this
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: funny movie instead of you know, yeah, maybe that's why
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: I remembered because I was there were so many movies
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: in film school, like in the film program I was in,
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: and I was like, I wow, boy did I hate that.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: I'm sure it was competent, but what a drag? I
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: am going to sleep through this? Yeah, there would always
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: be an intermission like Okay, we're gonna pause for a
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: little bit so you guys can go to the bathroom
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: and stuff, and I would just go back to my
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: door to sleep. I don't want to watch The Blue
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Angel by Max Offals. I want to sleep. Well, I'm
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: about to be the villain the Albert Brooks of this
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: episode and say that I wasn't as enamored with this
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: movie and I find it to be longer than it
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: needs to be. Well, that that's absolutely true. I will
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: not pretend that that it's not true. Why is this
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: movie two hours and thirteen minutes. It could be a
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: breezy minutes. I'm not sure why it's as long as
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: it is, and therefore I find it a boring movie
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: punctuated by some really fun scenes. It's not really my
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: type of movie, although I you know, it is obviously
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: competently made, incompetently written and directed, and the performances are
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: really good. But it's just I don't know, it's not
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: really my jam. But there are many things to talk about.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: I'm excited to unpack it, and I will never not
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: be better that it's two hours and thirteen minutes long.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: It used to be longer. There's an entire subplot that
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: was cut out. Oh my gosh, it was a longer movie.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: I know. Do tell what was what else could have
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: possibly happened? Um? I believe these scenes were shot because
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: I think they're on the criterion. But the shooting script
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: that I read had a sub lot where Tom be
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: friends a State Department official or employee. I think he's
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: kind of a low level State Department person, but his
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: roommate knows a bunch of people, and so there is
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: um a transference of information for uh, flirtation that occurs, um.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: And that's where Tom gets a lot of the information
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: that he uses to then advance in his careers. Is
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: because this the State Department person finds him attractive, and
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Tom is kind of guileless He's just like, oh, yeah,
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: we're just friends, but he wants to, you know, take
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: things to the next level with Tom, and he doesn't
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: understand why it. On the page it read really offensive
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: and I'm glad they cut it out, But that was
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: a whole like it must have been an extra twenty
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: pages of screenplay. Thank you. Yeah, this movie is definitely
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: already a bit long. I feel like that's just like
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: any outour movie is going to be too long. But
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: I still think that there's so I don't know that,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: and I think that this is like one of those
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: movies that sometimes like when I learned about the production
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: of a movie, I like it less by the time
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: I've learned more. This is the opposite. The more I
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: learned about the production of this movie, the more interesting
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: I think it is. Cool. Well, shall we talk about
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: the story and then go from there? Yeah, okay, so
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: here's the recap. We meet our three main characters when
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: their children. Tom who is a nice looking boy but
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: who doesn't get good grades and therefore he will be
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: a future news anchor. Aaron is like smarty pants brainiac
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: he will be a future news reporter. And Jane writes
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: letters to Pen pals and like job like it's her
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: job achiever. She cares very much about precision, and therefore
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: she is a future news producer. I really loved that
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: scene with with Little Jane where she tells her dad
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: off for like not being specific enough in his criticisms
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: of her and like it's so fun. And then Jane
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: grows up to be Holly Hunter, who is in fact
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: a news producer. She works with and is good friends with,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: adult Aaron, who is Albert Brooks. We see Jane give
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: a speech criticizing the state of like news reporting and
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: newscasting too soft, and afterward, Tom, who is William Hurt,
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: approaches her and he's like, hey, great job, so she
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: asks him about for dinner. It seems like things might
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: get romantic. He also was talking about how he's not
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: good at his job and that he's been sickly failing
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: upward and she's like, well, okay, get better and try harder,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: which upsets him and he leaves. I hate Tom. I
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: hate Tom, so I feel like we I know, I
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: know that Aaron is very much a villain, but I
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: do hate Tom the most out of everybody. I hate.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: I dislike both of the men that we're supposed to
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: be that. I don't. I mean, I don't know that
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: we're really supposed to be rooting for any relationship. I
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: don't think even know that we are. Yeah, it's it's
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: not a movie that is neutral in its moral judgments.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: I think it does judge every character in time in
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: the film. And that's one of the reasons why I
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: like it so much, is because it casts skepticism on
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: all three of the protagonists, which is very rare in movies.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: I think most of the time, when you watch a
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: comedy like this, or even a dramedy something that has,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: you know, gravitas, you're watching and the movie decides, this
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: is the person you're supposed to like, This is the
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: one that's going to make all the good decisions, or
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: is at least going to um reverse course on the
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: bad decision at some point. But I think at a
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: certain juncture in the movie, for all three characters, and
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: I think for Aaron, multiple times through the movie, the
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: movie points fingers at him and says, you are a bad,
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: bad person, you are making wrong choices, you are a
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: selfish person, and um the movie judges him accordingly. It's
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: really it's it's fascinating, like going through the moral gymnastics
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: of this movie, because there's multiple points where you have
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: to like think about what someone just said and be like, Okay,
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: they said that for a selfish reason, but I don't
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: totally disagree with what they were saying. But they're doing
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: it to be emotionally manipulative, and ultimately I don't like
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: any of them. I wanted to read Tom's character's description
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: on the Scholarly Journal Wikipedia page because it made me
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: laugh a lot. Uh. It says Tom is tall and
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: someome likable, intelligenic, but lacks news experience, general knowledge, intelligence,
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: and language skills. Like I mean, I think that that
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: that is certainly true, but also what it's not a
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: stretch to say that he is all those things. But
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: the one thing that makes Tom a special, interesting, complicated
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: character is his intense self awareness of his faults. That
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: is a cool thing to me. Not that I like Tom.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: That I walk away from this movie saying, ble, I
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: wish Tom and Jane got together because they're just great
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: for each other and he's so cool. No, he's he's
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: a manipulator. He is a figure who is really just
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: out for himself. But he doesn't know that he's not
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: savvy enough to understand of his problem, but he can
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: point out some of it. Yeah, that's what's cool about
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: the movie, Like, Okay, he gets it, but he at
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: the end he expressed is this belief in what he
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: did being okay even though Jane is like, this is
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: the worst, most unethical thing you could possibly do. So
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: he's self aware to a point, but when he gets
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: something out of his naivete or his perceived lack of
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: awareness or ability, he doesn't mind. Yeah that's a very
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: American thing, isn't it. It's it's like he knows that
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: this is not a meritograhy and that is going to
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: work to his advantage in every way. Yeah, what's the
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: line what's the exchange of dialogue where Jane is like,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: you could get fired for that, and he's like, I
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: got promoted for that. We're like, yeah, heikes. Through the
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: process of the movie he is learning the full extent
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: of his devious powers and that it's it's sort of
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: like the origin story of a Marvel villain. Yeah, it is.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: It's I'm so I'm like, what does that character look
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: like twenty years down the line, because it's like he's
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: almost like ahead of the curve and where news ended
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: up going to the point where like the central ethical
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: conversation around this movie would barely even be a discussion.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Oh he's Brian Williams. Yeah, yeah, yeah, did the same
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: thing of a similar thing to what happens in this movie,
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: where he's like, I was you know that helicopter and
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: boy it was scary. That was a lie. That was
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: a whole lie. Yeah. Side Well, Tom leaves Jane's hotel room,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: but then he calls her right away and he's like,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: by the way, I've gotten a job at your network,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: so I'll see you at work. And this is the
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: beginning of a like will they or won't they get
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: together kind of thing between Jane and Tom. Then we
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: see this great sequence where Jane, Aaron, and some other
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: staff like this editor guy Bobby, as well as Blair
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: who's played by Joan Cusack. They like are putting together
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: this segment and they have to like really quickly get
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: it all together and like rush the tape to the
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: people so that it gets on air, and they like
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: have like not a second to lose some great Joan Cusack,
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: I feel like Hillary Duff one day would watch that
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: tape of the Sheer Pratt follery of that sequence beautiful.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: It's it's really an obstacle. Course, she made a real
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: career out of playing that character in in the eighties.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: This and Working Girl. It's just like, Wow, Joan Cusack
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: knew how to play this kind of harried, low level
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: employee in a high stakes work environment. She's just fantastic
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: in this movie, very very funny. She almost impaled herself
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: on a water bubbler at one point. It's like there
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: was just like I was like, oh my god, that
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: had to have really hurt, and the shot continued for
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: twenty seconds after. She's amazing. So meanwhile, Tom keeps wanting
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: to pick Jane's brain and she's like, I'm busy. But
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: then he starts getting better as a reporter, and Jane
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: is like, oh am, I still attracted to Tom even
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: though I don't respect him, And wow, this is happening.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Aaron is starting to feel overlooked and unappreciated. Then some
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: like big breaking news is happening about a fighter plane
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: and their boss, like the network president Paul wants Jane
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: to executive produce this story and wants Tom to anchor it,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: even though Aaron is far more qualified, and Jane confronts
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Paul about this, but Paul doesn't budge, so they cover
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: the story with Tom as the anchor, and it goes
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: surprisingly well. Jane and Tom have a great rhythm, and
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: she's back to being attracted to him, But then he
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: goes off with another reporter, Jennifer, and they have sex
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: and then and then she is unceremoniously written out of
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: the story. I know, you can't get deported to Alaska,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: but she gets deported to Alaska essentially because of Jane.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Jane is like, we need to send her there to
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: cover this story because she's jealous. Um. It also should
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: be mentioned that throughout the movie we have seen Jane
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: have these like very short outbursts where she just like
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: bursts into tears for like a minute when she's by
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: herself and then composes herself and like gets back to
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: whatever she's doing. She's an Olympic compartmentalizer for sure. So
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: then Tom pitches a story to Jane a about women
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: being sexually assaulted on dates, and he wants to do
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: this story and he puts it all together and part
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: of it is him interviewing a woman about being a
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: survivor of date rape, and she's crying while she's telling
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: her story. It cuts to Tom crying as well, and
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: after Jane watches this, she's like, well, I don't know
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: about you, like cutting to your reaction, but otherwise this
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: was a good segment, Like it was very moving, so
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: let's put a pin in that, shall we. We also
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: learn that their boss, Paul, has to fire a bunch
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: of people because of a major budget cut. Aaron thinks
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: that he might be fired, so he wants a chance
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: at anchoring the weekend news to prove that he can
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: do a good job, and he begrudgingly has Tom help
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: him prepare, who tells Aaron like, you know, you're not
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: just reading the news, you're selling it. You're a salesman.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: And Aaron is like, that scene is gross, but it's funny.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: And then when Aaron does that like weekend news spot
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: where he anchors it, he starts sweating horribly and the
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: whole thing is quite sloppy. Meanwhile, Jane and Tom are
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: together at a correspondence dinner and they're flirting and they kiss,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: but then Jane has to go see Aaron after his
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: big night. So she goes to him and she's like,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: by the way, I think I'm in love with Tom,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: and Aaron is like, well, Tom is the devil. Also
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: I'm in love. So you're like, oh, okay, so this
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: is a completely unbiased opinion. Good. Um. So then things
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: kind of fall apart between Jane and Tom. The layoffs happen.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: Jane gets promoted to bureau chief. Tom also gets promoted.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: He's being sent to London. Aaron quits and Aaron is like, hey,
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: Jane asked Tom how he was able to get a
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: cutaway to his reaction during that story where we see him,
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: you know, reacting and crying when he only brought one
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: camera with him. So then Jane goes back through the
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: footage and it shows that Aaron got that reaction shot
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: after the interview that he was acting, and then he
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: edited it into the story. And Jane is just completely
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: disgusted and appalled by this. And she was supposed to
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: go away with Tom before he left for London, but
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: she confronts him at the airport, which I thought was
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: a fun subversion of like, you know, people go to
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: the airport and like makeup and kiss. But she goes
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: there too to scald his ethics. Yeah, She's like, you
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: make me sick. I'm not going on this trip with you.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: You committed a terrible breach of ethics. Screw you forever.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: It's it's also one of the great pre nine eleven
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: airport scenes because she's just kind of wandering around. She's
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: not sure if she's gonna go or dot. She doesn't
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: have a ticket because he's got the tickets. He's wandering
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: around with like funny hats and like, hey, the airport
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: is a fun place to be. Is great. She's like, no,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna break up with you. And then he's like, Okay,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: I guess I'll just walk through this single piece of
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: security and get right the one metal detector and that
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: is it. It's just very very interesting. Yeah, it's like
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: walking into a J. C. Penny basically. Yeah. I think
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: people just go to the airport to have lunch. Oh
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: there's a Binny Hotta in the airport. Yeah, let's go there.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: I can't relate. So that's the end of them. Then
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: we cut two several years later, where Jane, Tom and
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Aaron all and into each other. Jane is considering taking
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: an even higher position as a managing editor, where she
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: would be Tom's boss. Tom is engaged to someone else.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Aaron is married and has a young son. So they've all,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: you know, like moved on with their lives doing other stuff.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: And then the movie ends on Jane and Aaron catching up.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: So that's the story. Let's take a quick break and
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: then we'll come right back to discuss. And we're back.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Where should we start. I mean, I have a lot
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: of info on on the background of this movie that
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: we could maybe start by just like ping ponging off
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: each other about There is a lot of stuff that
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: maybe appreciate certain parts of the movie morphed for for
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: knowing about it. So this is this is a James L.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: Brooks movie. It's his Ohtour period shortly pre Simpson's. He
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: made this movie with um Polly Platt as a producer.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: She is not even on the Wikipedia page for this movie, which,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: after listening to Karina season on it is baffling and frustrating,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: but also fix it right now, let's franks it now.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: By the time you hear this, she'll be there it.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, it is pretty like ridiculous that she's not.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: She had worked she had worked with James L. Brooks
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: on his I think it was his immediate previous movie
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: in terms of endearment. James L. Brooks had a pretty
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: good track record in centering women in stories, particularly women
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: in the workplace. He was a producer on The Mary
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: Tyler Moore Show. He centered women and women's stories at
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: a time where it was kind of unusual to do
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: so as a white male. Ohtour, So that was his background.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: Polly Platt came on for this movie. She had previously
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: worked in terms of endearment as well. She had worked
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: on a number of Peter Bagdanovich's best movies when they
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: were married, but she was never credited as an actual producer,
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: and that was kind of the story of her life
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: up until broadcast news that she had been repeatedly contributing
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: on a producer level but was never credited. That way
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: was always overlooked. Was supposed to direct her own movies.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: There was like a time in I think the late
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: seventies early eighties where she was projected to be like,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: quote unquote the first great female director. But she never
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: did direct a movie for a lot of reasons, but
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: you know, one of the big ones was how frequently
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: she was erased from the projects she did contribute to
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: on a really high level and broadcast News was the
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: first movie that she was actually formally credited as a
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: producer on. I have a question, did she receive an
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Academy Award nomination for Best Picture for this or was
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: she not one of the credited producers on that? That's
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: a good question. Let me let me check that that
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: the because is it the executive producer who gets the
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: nomination for the Best Picture Academy Award? Is that the case?
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: Possibly she she I'm not seeing that she was. I'm
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: not saying that she was nominated for an Academy where
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: she was nominated for an Academy Award for Art Direction
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: on Terms of Endearment, which was kind of her It's
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: so into like that that and we'll just like link
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: to that series because I'm going to like fumble my
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: way through the summary of her life. But a lot
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: of the ways that she was credited and she worked
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: in an art director capacity really frequently because that was,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: you know, considered more traditionally to be women's work in film,
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: and also she was really good at it. But she
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: you know, she didn't really have much trouble getting credited
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: as an art director, but when it came to the
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: actual production, she was never credited. So yeah, I don't
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: think that she was an executive producer, and it doesn't
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: look like she was nominated for the Academy Award, which
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: is ridiculous. Yeah. I don't know if the requirements for
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: being the Best Picture nominated producer have changed since then,
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: but they certainly should have because of that. Um. She
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: was the executive vice president of James EL Brooks's production company,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Gracie Films, so she was involved in quite a few
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: of the movies that he was involved with, both as
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: a director and a producer going forward. Yeah, and if
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: it wasn't for her, the Simpsons wouldn't exist. She introduced
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Matt Grinnig too, if that's how you say his name
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: to dubious James L. Brooks. So she's like, she's like
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: she is the reason that Cameron Crow had a career,
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: which I guess Wes Anderson, she her whole career was
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: like making things happen for men and never getting credit
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: for it. But yeah, I highly recommend listening to that.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: You must remember this season because it will shine a
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: light on somebody who was primarily in her career overshadowed
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: by people who didn't deserve the limelight as much as
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: she did, right, Yeah, because she was for the most part,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: very much like the common thread in like their best work.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: So it's like, well, you know, who is here for
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: all of your best work, and especially for like Peter Bogdanovich,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: which I guess film majors can jump in my mentions
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: if they feel like it. But she was involved with
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: his two best regarded movies ever and his career, you know,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: kind of that kind of absolutely certainly did take a
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: downturn after he decided to divorce her. Yeah, he had
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: an affair with um Civil Shepherd. Shepherd on the set
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: of Last Picture Show, and that was kind of the
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: swan song for him being considered a top level a tour. Yeah.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: So Polly Platt, which I just want to make sure
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: she gets her her do And it also sounded it
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: sounded like there was a really good on the ringer.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: There was a really good piece on the production of
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: this movie. It's been written about pretty extensively at this point,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: but there were elements of Jane's character that were pulled
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: from both Susan Zarinsky, who I think was like the
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: main source for Jane's life, who ended up becoming the
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: head of CBS News up until like this year, I guess.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: But but there are elements of her character that we're
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: pulled from Polly Platt and James Brooks's relationships, so she's
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: very present in the movie. She she also had to
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: take on the movie that I super disagreed with, but
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: I thought was interesting because I think from her perspective
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: it makes a lot of sense because she, you know,
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: her career was very much the story of like trying
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: to quote unquote have it all and have a successful
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: marriage and a successful career in film, and she was
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: never able to have you know, both at the same time,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: as is somewhat common experience, especially in the you know,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: seventies and eighties. Um, So she really really really wanted
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: Jane to be able to go with Tom at the
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: end of the movie, even if the relationship was doomed.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: She was really frustrated that James L. Brooks wouldn't let
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: Jane have some sort of romantic Catharsis, even if it
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: was like not the guy for her she was. She
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: seemed really really like upset about it that but then
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: she says in her unpublished memoirs that Karina Longworth read
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: a lot from in her series that she's She's like,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: I suppose I am a living example that you can
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: have the career, but you generally don't get the man.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: So I think she wanted this ending for Jane that
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: she didn't get for herself, and that also didn't happen
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: in the movie. I think that that would have sucked
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: in the movie. But perspective it makes sense. I think
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: you know, a lot of creative people will do this,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: where they will project themselves onto the characters, and that's
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: I think a function of the fact that when you
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: become a creative person, it's usually because you have a
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: surplus of empathy. Sometimes it's because you are a sociopath,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: raging narcissist, super narcissist. But I think, you know, for
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: the people who really do the best work, the people
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: who you know, we we are beginning to laud more
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: than those narcissists, it's empathy. It's being able to put
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: yourself in the characters and see their perspectives. And I
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: can see doing that. But James L. Brooks was a
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: d percent right. Jane going with Tom is a rejection
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: of bathing that Jane stood for as a character. Right,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: It's just wrong and it would have been terrible and
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: it would have made you dislike Jane even more than
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: you might have just through the course of the movie.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: So I'm glad that it is the way that it is.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: And Jane does get a boyfriend in the in the
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: flash forward, Yeah, she does, and and I'm all for
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: and we've we've you know, gone back and forth about
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: this on our show for Forever, Caitlin. It's like, yeah,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know, it's like she she It's clear throughout
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: the movie that she does want some sort of companionship,
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: and so it's like, yeah, I'm rooting for her to
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: get a companionship that is equitable and good for her.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: But like, I'm definitely glad she didn't end up with
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: either of the men in this movie. When I'm watching, yeah,
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: when I'm watching the film, I don't think of her
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: having a boyfriend or a husband or something as the goal.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: The real goal for her. It's to have peace, you know,
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: internal peace, like the feeling of of intentment and this
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: is enough. And that's the part of it that I
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: relate to. And I think a lot of people probably
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: relate to is I need more. I need more. I
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: need to be more successful. I need to have more
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: esteem from my peers, more acclaim. I need to be
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: a bigger personality. I need to be like the most
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: huge and loved human being within my sphere of influence.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: And that's what she wants, and that drives her to
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: kind of struggle internally for the entire movie, and she thinks,
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: maybe Aaron will be the person to give me that piece,
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: Maybe Tom will be the person to give me that piece.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: But she has to find it in herself, and by
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: being able to say to Tom, no, you are wrong.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna stand up for myself. I have limits, and
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: then to be rewarded for her talent and her and
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: her intelligence and her ability, that's what gives her the
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: piece at the end, and I feel like she she's
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: the one who wins the jackpot. At the end, Tom
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: gets what was always coming to him because Tom is
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: the white man, the handsome white man in a world
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: run by handsome white men. And Aaron gives up and
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: he decides, I'm just gonna go to Portlands and you know,
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: start growing weed, you know, do local news and stuff.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: Jane is the one who gets to really feel like
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: she's accomplished what she wanted to accomplish, and she worked
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: for it. Tom didn't work for anything. Tom is the
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: scion of the American capitalist system. The way in which
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: he fails upward and is aware that that's what's happening,
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: it's just so frustrating to watch. And yeah, but the
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: movie is really astute about pointing that out. In the
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: eighties when we were lauding those people more than anybody else,
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: those were our heroes. Yeah, for sure. Well let's let's
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: kind of I mean, this is kind of a good opportunity,
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: I think, to kind of pivot the discussion to Jane
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: as a character. I guess the last thing I wanted
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: to say about the production of the movie was that, um,
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: because again, Caitlin, like we talked about this on the
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: show all the time of like, when men are writing
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: female characters, what kind of research are they doing? Who
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: were they talking to when they're preparing for a person's
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: experience would be wildly different from their own? And it
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: does seem like James Brooks is pretty at least by
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: the accounts that I read that he was pretty solid
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: in this department, And I think it does come across
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: in the movie where he researched women who were working
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: in broadcast news in the early to mid eighties pretty extensively.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: He interviewed Susan Serinski for I think over the course
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: of months, but he spoke to I think it was
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: like as many as ten women working in that field,
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: and you know, just kind of doing the work of
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: trying to figure out what the common threads were, um
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: in the struggles they experienced at work. And so I did.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: And and also Susan Zarinsky was an associate producer on
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: this movie too, so she was also you know, like
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: cut in and worked with Holly Hunter. And as as
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: far as you know, a male author writing a female character,
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: I was. I was like, I mean, I guess it's
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: like the the bar is so extremely low, but I
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: was like pretty impressed. I was like, Okay, he actually
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: did his homework. He brought someone into the production who
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: is an authority on this field in this specific role,
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: who worked with the actor, and like it seemed, you know,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: I was um impressed light with that. I thought that
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: that was cool that she was like accredited producer as well.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: I can't speak for how how women respond to this movie.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: But it always felt natural to me, like it didn't
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: feel as though he was making things up. And part
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: of that probably is his own background in journalism and
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: working in in I think of a CBS news when
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: he first started. That might have helped him see how
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: he needed to go about the process of actually making
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: this is not to just make it up pull cloth,
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: which is I think how a lot of male writers
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: and directors will approach a woman's story, and this is
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: ultimately Jane's story. He looks at it. It seemed like
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: he looked at it more from a journalistic standpoint and
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: and said, I need to bring some fair similitude to
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: a story that I have some understanding of but not
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: the full picture. I'm I'm all for male writers doing
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: their homework like it's just it's a breath of fresh air.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: It's really nice. Yeah, let's talk about Jane. Jane, sweet Jane.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: She I mean some just pretty obvious stuff here. She
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: is extremely competent at her job. We see this constantly,
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: which is something that I feel like in a lot
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: of movies that center a female character or female protagonist,
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: even that is good at her job. We are mostly
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: only like told this or like other characters talk about
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: how good she is at her job, but we don't
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: actually see any like visual evidence of this. So the
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: fact that we constantly see her working and see the
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: ways in which she is good at her job again
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: bare minimum stuff here, but uh, you know, it's it's
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: worth noting that that's a very important aspect of her character.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: We see her be appreciated for the work that she's doing.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: We see her being valued and recognized. There's one scene
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: where the president of the is it the network president
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: or I think the head of the network news the
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: network news division. Yeah, because this is a broadcast network.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: This is this is like an ABCC major yeah, right, right,
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: right right, as opposed to like today news channels and stuff.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: Then right, so their boss Paul is like observing her working.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: There's a scene where she's like screaming into the phone
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: at someone about like a parking issue. She does like
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: body shame someone during that, so we don't love that,
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: but she's like getting the job done, and Paul says
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: something like I had no idea she was this good,
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: and then that leads to her eventually getting like a
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: major promotion. So even though it's perhaps not always the
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: most realistic thing, especially for a woman in the eighties,
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: to be like really acknowledged for the hard work they're
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: putting in and being rewarded for it. Because I mean, again,
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: looking at Polly Platt and how often she was overlooked,
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: it's not uncommon for women, especially of that era, to
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: do amazing work and never get any recognition or acknowledgement
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: for it. But on the other hand, to see that
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: on screen as an example of something that can happen
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: and should happen was just really cool to see. So
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that aspect of her character. The other kind
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: of major thing about her is that she's looking for
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: love in all the wrong places. Yeah, yeah, I think that.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: I think there's a little bit of the well, this
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: is who is who is the closest person to me?
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: And I think that that's probably true of a lot
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: of people, um, you know, in in a variety of
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: different fields, but especially in these kinds of high stress,
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: um high impact jobs. You look for someone who understands
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: your plate, who understands why you're freaking out and you're unhappy.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: You're bursting into tears once a day every day exactly yeah,
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: it's so she looks for these people who are going
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: to fulfill her. But boy, you know these are not
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: the best options, but they're the only options. I know.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: It's like I wanted and this is so I mean,
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: it's like so upper middle white issues that that everyone
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: in this movie is having, if not just like full
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: blown rich person ship going on. But I'm like, we
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: gotta get Jane on Riya, like we gotta we gotta
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: get Jane like some we gotta get her on up
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: on a dating platform. She needs to date someone outside
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: of this industry who understands high stress environments but not
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: the one that she's in every day. I just was like,
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: let's let's get let's get Jane into like two thousand
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: and twenty one and see and see what's up then,
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: because give her a yoga class, some crystal juice regimen,
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: get her good, some goop. Tell Jane about Goop, like
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: you just you know what, girl, wash your face, Okay,
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: watch your face. The thing with Jada is she is
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: an unrepentant girl boss and like the kind it's it's true,
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: and it's like and it bearss saying that. The kind
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: of news that's being done here which I guess it's
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: like it's hard for me to go into like seven
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: audience brain here because now I feel like there's been
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: there's been so much discussion around news bias and mass
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: media news bias um that now when you see this
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: kind of stuff, you're like, oh, this is this. You know,
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: this news has a very clear tilt. It's always going
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: to prioritize the West. It's always going to prioritize the
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: white West, and and on and on and so in
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: some ways, it's like, if I'm looking at Jane on paper, No,
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: I don't really like her that much, but I do
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: appreciate her commitment to two ethics and I can empathize
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: with her on I mean, I guess on I got
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: kind of like lost in my how how I actually
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: like fall on this because we see Jane have these
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: like literally like power cries at multiple points in the movie,
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: and I do think it kind of becomes a joke
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: as the movie goes on that like she's going to
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: just take any moment she can find to herself, which
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: is not often, to like have a power cry, and
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: then she'll either pull it together or someone will walk
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: in and she'll be forced to pull it together, which
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: I think is like, you know, I don't hate that choice.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know she she is so tricky. I mean,
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: it's like there's no one in this movie that you
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: are rooting for because it's like, Okay, I want you
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: know Jane too. I don't know. I mean, I guess
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: I I like her on the Okay, where is this going?
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: I think that Jane has a problem that I don't
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: think he's really often seen in movies, where Jane is
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: like primarily valued for her skill at her job, which
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: I don't think we see female characters valued for primarily
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: at least in movies very often. But it also shows
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: the offset of that and what I what I think
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: is like a pretty logical thing that she feels is
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: missing from her life is like, oh, people value me
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: for my ability so much, but like what about me?
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: And like what about who I really am? And like
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: my desires and what I want in life? And both
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: of the men in this like sort of love triangle
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: we're being presented with do seem to value her ability
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: over who she actually is. And that I thought was
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: like a pretty interesting thing to see on screen. And
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: I don't think that there's a lot of movies that
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: have really done that because I think that, like there
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: is this whole current wave feminism of like it is
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: really good to be valued for your skills, which it is,
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: but also like to be valued for your skills and
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: not yourself, Like that sucks and that feels bad. And
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: I I think it's interesting that that comes through in
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: her character and her storyline. I think that there's still
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: a an element of vampirism to the relationships she has
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: with both men. Is even though oh great, you know
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: they value her her ability, they want that ability for themselves.
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: The seduction in this movie, the grand scene where Tom
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: is like, whoa Jane? Okay, now I really notice her,
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: is when she allows him to do the nightly news
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: without ruining it, without saying something inappropriate or you know,
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: getting something wrong. She guides him to where he needs
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: to be in his career. Aaron similarly, is constantly looking
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: to her for approval and acceptance and some kind of
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: help in his career. And he said, Aaron is always saying,
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: you know, I know you better than you know yourself,
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: for like we're best friends, were doing all this stuff
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: because that's Aaron needs her to give him this validation.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: So they're constantly just taking from her, but they never
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: asked her how she's doing, or what's going on in
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: her mind, or why she feels the way that she does.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: It is just it's constantly like psychically sucking the energy
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: out of her. And that's why she has to pick
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: neither of them, because if she went with either one
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: of those guys, they would just like whittle her into
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: a little tiny nub. Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm very
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: glad that she picks neither of them. I would have
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: been simply furious if the movie had her ended up
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: with one or the other of them. It would have sucked.
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: But then you have this yet another example of a movie,
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: and this is something we've talked here and there about
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: on the podcast of a very career driven woman who
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: is very successful in her line of work and very competent,
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: who doesn't it's sort of that like women can't have
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: it all thing where we see her not able to
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: you know, she again she's looking for love, she has
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: trouble finding it, and when she does find something that
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: seems like it might be a romantic prospect, she can't
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: maintain a relationship. And even at the end when she
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: has this like boyfriend who she's known for like three
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: months or something like that, and you know, we don't
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: know how serious it is or if that's going to
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: be kind of fleeting or whatever. But well, that's also
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: like one way of looking at it where it's like,
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: you know, she's she's really good at her job, but
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: that's the only thing she gets to have. She can't
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: have love because women can't have it all. But then
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: there's also like, but then you could see it like, well,
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: she doesn't need a man. Her her passion and her
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: love is her job, and so I'm kind of torn.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: But it's like she wants one, but she wants love. Yeah, right,
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: I think that that's such an like it's interesting and
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: I don't think I don't know, it's almost like an
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: impossible puzzle to solve right where It's like I feel
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: like if she if this movie resolves with like her
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: being like, oh wait, there was this guy I knew
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: from college who respects me and like fulfills me in
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: every way, like that would be I guess it's like
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: I was struggling with that too. Or it's like it's
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: like it's idealism versus the reality. Of her time and
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: her profession, which which does come off as bleak because
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: it is. And that's why I was really interested in
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: how frustrated Polly Platt was by how her story ends,
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: because we all agree that she shouldn't have ended up
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: with one of the assholes in the movie, But it
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: seems like Polly Platt very much wanted the more idealistic
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: ending to this, which is that she was able to
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: be fulfilled on every level, which I know is possible
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: and I know that women of this era were able
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: to have that. But I would be interested to hear
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: from our listeners of this generation who are women uh
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: in the workplace at this time as well, because it
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: does seem like there is kind of this very bleak
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: realism to Jane's character of or that's like one way
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: to look at it, Like I can see it as like, well,
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: funk James L. Brooks for not giving this very motivated,
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: intelligent female character at the happy ending she deserved. But
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: then I can also see it as like, well, what,
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: we're very intelligent, highly motivated women in the workplace at
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: this time actually getting and what does this movie reflect
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: of that? And I don't know, Yeah, it's it's really
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: thorny and tough, and I mean, I I like that
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: this movie kind of engages with that, but it is
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: like it's a bummer for I Like, I feel it
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: is kind of a cool choice to at the end
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: add the flourish of like, maybe this is going to
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: be the relationship that works for her, and maybe she
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: is like on the brink of having it all because
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: she had to deal with all this bullshit and got
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: her career in line and rejected these two assholes and
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: moved on with her life. But but we don't know.
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, I've always liked the kind of ellipsus,
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: the elliptical nature of it, where it just kind of
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: leaves you wondering. I hope she gets what she wants,
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: but you don't know because she's still herself and she
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: still is grappling with these things because she hasn't had
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: the complete like revelation, Oh, this is how we solve
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: the problem, because none of us really ever do. That's
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: the thing that I think separates great films from very
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: good films is the acceptance of the fact that most
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: of us will never solve the one big problem in
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: our lives because it's hard. That's work that never ends.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: We're constant only trying to perfect ourselves and and perfection
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: is impossible. Um. It is worth noting that the year
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: after this movie came out, that was the year of
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: Working Girl, directed by Mike Nichols, starring Melanie Griffith, Harrison Ford,
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: Sigourney Weaver, and that movie, in contrast to this one,
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: is about where where Jane is kind of you know, um,
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: I think, always destined for success, upper class kind of person,
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: lauded for her her intelligence. Melanie Griffith's character in that
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: movie is considered lower class and doesn't belong on Wall Street,
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: which is certainly a less morally upright profession than broadcast
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: news at that time. Neither are great, but that one's
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: definitely you know, yeh, like yeah, on the list. At
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: least you know they were trying to tell the truth
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: on some level, but not really. Um, Mellie Griffith gets
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: everything she wants the end, She gets the corner office,
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: she gets all the fancy clothes, she gets Harrison Ford
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: at the end, even though Harrison Ford in that movie
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: is kind of a jerk. Oh god, she sucks, he sucks, yeah, exactly, Like,
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: but like that was the inverse of this. And if
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: I like Working Girl because it's funny and it's it's
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: kind of like an amusing fairy tale. But of the two,
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: Broadcast News is far superior to me because it does
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: paint the realistic picture of human beings constantly stepping on themselves,
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: trying to succeed and trying to be better people and
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: failing miserably. And that's how I feel as a human
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: being all the time. Yeah, And it's like and I think, like,
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: and that's part of why it's like a tough pill
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: to swallow. But it's like this this movie doesn't present
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: itself as the bizarro like Reagan era fairy tale that
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: Working Girl does. And you and listen to our episode
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: about Working Girl on on the Patreonic that we did
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: I think a year and a half ago, even years ago,
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: yah know when that was. We've covered it. But but yeah,
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: I agree that, Like, I think that this movie has
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: endured more and it's partially for those reasons, Like I
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: don't know, it's it's I I like that Jane's ending
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: is pretty ambiguous and like opens up this kind of discussion.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: It's cool to have these discussions, and you know, how
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: the discussion of a woman's career in seven would be
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: different than now, hopefully in some ways. And it does
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: seem like a cool I don't know, just like marker
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: of of where things were at, especially because and again
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: I don't want to give James Albert too much credit here,
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: but he was he was engaging with very popular female
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: characters who were in the workplace, um for fifteen years
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: before this movie came out, and he or over fifteen
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: years where he was working in the Mary Tyler Moore Show,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: which was like a huge component of second wave feminist entertainment,
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: where it was like a huge deal that a career
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: woman was being centered in any way, regardless of what
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: she was doing, even and and now it seems like
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: pitally nothing because you're like, okay, a white woman working
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: in an office like I'm asleep, but but you know, like,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: but that wasn't always the case, and it's he he
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: seems to have been engaging with kind of this story,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: you know that not this story, but just like this
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: social movement pretty consistently, and it's interesting to watch it
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: kind of bear out in this way where like by
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: the late eighties, it's clear that characters like Jane have
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: benefited from second wave feminism and that she is highly
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: respected in her profession, but she's still a person, and
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: she is still experiencing sexism in this space, and she
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: is still being you know, vampired and used by the
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: people around her in spite of the successes of the
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: past you know, ten fifteen years of feminism. It's wild.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: One thing. I do think that in terms of like
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: how her character has written that I feel like there
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: was room for that. I would have liked some of
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: the time to be reallocated. I'm not advocating for the
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: movie to be longer, but um I will it's it's
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: four hours. Why not. I wish that she had a
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: woman to talk to in the story. I feel like
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: those characters were present, especially with right there, like I
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: I understand probably I can imagine James Brooks's argument for like, well,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: she was intimidated by her and blah blah blah. But
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: it's like there was room for two women in this
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: workplace to have meaningful conversations that would have lifted the
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: story in general. And I wish that there had been
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: room made for that because the characters are literally there,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: like it's frustrating that they don't engage with that at all. Yeah,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: the conversations between Joan Cusacks character Blair and Jane are
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: really minimal, to the point where every time Blair popped
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: up again in the story, I'm like, all right, John
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: Cusacks in this movie, Like, she's there so infrequently that
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: you could basically write her out of the movie and
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: it wouldn't be different at all. And as much as
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: we love to see her run through that obstacle course
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: to get the tape in on time, that kind of
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: could have been anyone. So the fact that she's not
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: a more important character is pretty glaring. It stands out
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: only because of the performance. But the female character that
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: I want to talk about before we move on that
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: always chaps my ask the most is Jen of her
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: played by Lois Childs, who was also in the James
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: Bond film Moonraker and I believe was a model for
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: many years. Interesting that, Yeah, I think that was maybe
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: her first movie. But um, I mean, she has done
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: no favors in this film. She is there specifically to
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: be derided and to be an obstacle of a sort
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: for Jane, and I think they have one conversation and
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: this is I guess getting ahead of ourselves about the
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: Bechdel test. But they have one conversation and I believe
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: it is specifically about Tom. Oh yeah, and there is
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: nothing else going on there. They don't have any rapport
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: related to their unique position in a broadcast network newsroom
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: in they don't talk about their own hopes and dreams.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: They don't talk about UM, the struggles that they have,
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: or or the conflicts that they have. It is just
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: about Mom. And I mean, she's played for UM for
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: comic relief the entire time, and we're supposed to be
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: so amused by the fact that she has banished to Alaska,
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: which but I feel bad. I feel bad for her.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: Tom was cute. She just wanted to hook up with Tom.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: The thing is, like, I like Jennifer. I feel like
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: Jennifer is. I wish that she's been written out more,
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: and I wish that Jane had been taken to task
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: more for doing what she did, because she derailed did
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: Jennifer's life and career entirely where I thought it was
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: like I thought. I mean, I don't know, Klin, I'm
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: interested in your opinion on this as a well, But
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: like when when Jennifer goes up to Jane at whatever
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: that news hard Heart and it's like, hey, I'm interested
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: in Tom, Like I wasn't sure if there's something going
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: on with you. I just wanted to check in. I
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: was like, wow, O, that's like she didn't technically have
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: to do that. They weren't friends. It was like I thought,
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that's that's what a what a
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: nice person does um or if not nice, conflict a verse.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: I could relate with it. But she she was just like, hey,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: I'm interested in Tom. Is there anything going on? And
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: then she gets a feeling from Jane that oh Jane
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: is interested and she's like, okay, fine, then I'll back off. Fine.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: And then Jane is the one who acts like, you know,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: just bizarre about it, and it's like, oh no, go
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: fuck him right now, kind of like she's very immature
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: about it. And then Jennifer is like okay, and then
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: she does, and then she's punished for it, like, yeah,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: it's not cool. I think that, like Jane is written
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: to be cool, and so the fact that she is
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: like so unceremoniously written out as a punchline rather than
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: like it, it would have been like another interesting thing
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: that could have happened is like and again I'm just like, yeah,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: tell James Brooks what I think he should have done
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: thirty years ago. But like, you know, there are other
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe there's another person in the at the
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: news station who would have been piste off on Jennifer's
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: behalf for the fact that she was clearly banished to Alaska, Like,
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: did Jennifer have any friends that we're going to stick
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: up for her? Why is no one mad about this? Nobody?
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: Because Jane was Jane was being an asshole, and like
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: that is one of the things that for me watching
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: in one, I was like, Oh, Jane can be a
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: real like, you know, really weaponize her insecurities against other people.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, especially because she gets on her high horse
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: about ethics in reporting the news. And then she's she
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: makes this choice too, because she had the choice between
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: a character named George, who we could also talk about,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: and Jennifer as the person who they're going to send
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: to Alaska to report on some Alaskan serial killer, and
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: without a moment's hesitation, the second Jane, here's Jennifer's name
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: as an option. She's just like Jennifer Son, Jennifer and
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: it's because she's trying to get rid of her so
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: that she can move in on Tom, who, by the way,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: had called the reason that Jane was like, yeah, Jennifer,
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: you can go after him, I don't care is because
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: Tom went up to her and he's like, you look
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: so pretty and clean, because normally at the office you
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: have this gross layer of film on you. Oh my god.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: She was like, well that, thank you. It's so it's
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: so frustrating, yeah, because it's I mean, it's like I think,
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: I hope that we're supposed to you know, that's supposed
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: to be like audience wise, a strike against Jane, and
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: clearly like you know, she she's like you're saying, Caitlin
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: constantly on her high horse about ethics, but then in
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: practice her record is spotty or than she'd like to admit.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: But the most frustrating thing is if Jane had just
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: been straightforward and been like, no, I'm interested in Tom,
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: like I would appreciate if you didn't hook up with him.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: It sounds like Jennifer would have been like okay and
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: moved on with her life and this never would have
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: been a problem. Jennifer is kind of cool. She's cool.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: She's a very chill lady, and she's just kind of like, yeah,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: I was living my life whatever Tom's. There's a scene
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: where I felt bad for Jennifer too. I think it's
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: pretty early on where all the reporters at the station
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: are kind of like asking each other ethics questions where
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: they're like, oh, would you tell a source you love
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: them to get information out of them? And they were
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: all like, yep, of course I would. And then when
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: when like Jennifer confirms that she would, Aaron is like, yeah,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: Jennifer didn't know that there was any other option, as
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: if to be like, wow, Jennifer, what a floosy She's
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: out there loving and having sex with all of her sources.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: I do wonder, basically, I do wonder if there was,
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: like in My Okay two things like, I wonder there
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: was some sort of deleted scene where this is addressed,
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: because it does seem like Jennifer is a pretty like
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: heavily set up character to completely disappear with a throw
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: a joke. It does feel kind of bizarre to me,
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: given the rest of the characters in this movie. Nothing
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: else for Jennifer. She is long gone to Alaska, that
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: is the end of Jennifer. I liked this scene. I
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: liked the other like one of her moments where after
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: she and Tom do hook up, Tom notices that she
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: has like a spare room in her apartment maybe that
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: is like for her clothes, and Jennifer gets defensive before
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: he even says anything, and it's like, oh, well, I
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: had that extra space, and you know, it felt like
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: kind of you know, however you feel about it, like
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: commentary on how female news anchors have a higher pressure
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: to look a certain way than their male counterparts, to
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: the point where she felt the need to like get
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: ahead of his potential criticism. And that was like another
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: like pretty thoughtful moment, I thought. And then she just
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: she just disappears. I hope that she wins a Pulitzer
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: in Alaska. That's my head canon for she catches the
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: serial killer. They make an incredible docuseries about it, and
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: Jane is kicking herself. Yeah. I mean, I think this is,
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: like you said, Jamie, a very very tricky movie because
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: it isn't cleanly moralistic. It isn't cleanly one side or
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: the other. It is very messy with the perspective, and
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: I think that that is one, as we've all pointed out,
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: a fault of the fact that it came out of
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: but also I think it's because this is a movie
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: that is conflicted about its own subject matter. It's conflicted
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: about the idea of the news and whether or not
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: the news is good as it is portrayed in the world. Um,
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: there's the that whole sequence when they're in the um
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: involved in the the war. I don't even remember what country,
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: nicarag I'm glad that they actually had a country instead
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: of just like, we're in a war zone and there
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: are people that don't speak English. Um, it's it's played
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: not for laughs necessarily, but they are oddly not engaged
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: with anything. They're kind of detached from the fact that
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: they're in a war zone, that there are people losing
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: their tea. Yeah, it's opportunistic. It is not empathetic. It
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: is not oh my goodness, this is this is a
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: situation where people's lives are being lost, that there's political
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: upheaval and you know whose side are we on? You know,
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: why is this happening. It's just here's the thing that happened,
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: and can we get a shot of the boots? Okay,
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: we got a shot of the boots. Great, nobody got shot, Okay, wonderful.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: It's just very matter of fact. And I think today,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: you know now we would say, you know that detachment
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: is actually bad. That the the people who are nostalgic
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: for the days of the news being told for thirty
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: minutes every five five o'clock every day and we're objective
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: is not realistic or feasible. You can't be objective in
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: the news when horrible things are happening. You have to
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: speak out and you have to tell it not like
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: it is, but tell people what it shouldn't be, if
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: that makes sense. Um. And so this movie I think
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: has that ambivalence about the news, and it's satirical about
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: that world. So it makes every character's decisions more glaringly negative. Um,
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: everybody is doing the wrong thing because the movie isn't
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: sure if the thing that the career, the industry that
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: they have given their lives too is even good. Yeah,
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: And I think that's that's kind of where like Jane's
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: Girl Boss angle does kind of come in is like, yes,
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: you you are, like ten did as an audience member
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: and as someone who generally is like women succeeding could
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: could be good, uh to say like, well, look, she's
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: succeeding at a really high level in this field, but
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: what is she actually doing and like what are the
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: ethics and what is the impact of what she's actually doing.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: It's not like it's not universally good at all. And
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: I like that the yeah that the movie like that
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: that the scene where they're reporting in Nicaragua, I feel
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: like at least now like comes off as pretty embarrassing
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: for them too. It's like they can barely communicate with
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: the people that they are supposed to be reporting on
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: and about. And then it's ultimately kind of played as
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: this little romantic tension when they're in the middle of
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: like you're saying, to have a war zone where people
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: are dying, and they're kind of like, wow, this is
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: so exciting. She'll be kiss no, and it's like they're
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: just like centering themselves in this way that looks ridiculous. Yeah,
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: And I think the movie, to its credit, does recognize
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: how ridiculous it is, right, Yeah, Yeah, I I do.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: I do. I do like that because it's like there,
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: you know, it's what what Jane is fighting for in
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: this industry is I guess on this watch for me.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: It was like, it's like she's just fighting for like
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: a two percent better thing than what she's currently doing,
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: which is better. Like, I agree that Jane's version of
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: the news is better than Tom's version of the news,
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: But is it better enough to justify rooting for it? No?
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: But is she right? Yes, it's the eighties were an
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: era of incremental progress, the nineties eighties, Yeah, you're the
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: two thousand's. On some level, it's like, okay, well, you know,
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: we we've made some strides, right, ladies, right, everybody. You know,
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: black people can be senators now, isn't that amazing? Dude? Dude?
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: Do dude, dude? And is Obama and Hillary and oh
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: you know, black people can can operate drones to like this,
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: is this wonderful? We can have a Korean head of
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: the CIA or whatever it is that like we're starting
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: to like look at it that way. And now people, finally,
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: you know, in in this era, are seeing it's not
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: enough to just have incremental progress to put people of
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: color or marginalized groups into these jobs that are fundamentally
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: bad for the planet. It is not just about having
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: a person of color as the head of the CIA,
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: because it's the CIA that is the problem, right, that
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: those are the things that we couldn't fathom or grapple with.
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: That now people are are are able to to to
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: grapple with because we don't have the illusion that the
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: system itself is good. And I think in broadcast news
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: and in a lot of other quote unquote feminist movies
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: from that era, baby baby boom, um with um Diane Keaton,
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: you know, that's like, oh, look at how great it
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: is that Diane Keaton is able to have a kid
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: and you know, be a boss. Like, that's not good.
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: What does her company even do? It's probably like selling
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: arms to the Contras or something. I don't know. This
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: isn't right, baby, So we did, and that baby is
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: going to end up inheriting millions of dollars and probably
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: being a bad person. Um. Yeah, it's it's just a
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: different way of looking at the world. And I'm glad
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: that we are outside of the expectation that incremental progress
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: is going to save us. It is not. Yeah, let's
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: take another quick break and then we'll come back for
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: more discussion. And we're back. Is there any other stuff
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: we wanted to talk about? Jane? Before we started going
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: into I have like a few little things, but to
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: take it away. UM. Oh well, one of the one
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: of the exchanges that I really did like, and I
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: watched the scene back a couple of times because it
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: was like, I don't know, Hollyhunter is really good in
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: this scene where I I do again, it's like, this
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: is in the context of what Jane is doing is
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: ultimately not good for the world. I do think it's
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: like there are a few elements of her character where
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: she she is a huge advocate for the people who
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: work for her, um in a way that I thought
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: was was really cool, Like when she's trying to get
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: Aaron to be the anchor on the story about Libya
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: because he actually knows what he's talking about, has expertise
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: in this area to an extent, and you know, can
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: unlike Tom, can like do the job that Tom admits
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: he cannot do. UM. I thought it was it was
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: cool to see her really, you know, go up against
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: the superior and advocate for someone who she knew would
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: do a better job. And that whole exchange of like,
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: you know, being patronized and like she it's that complicated
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: girl boss thing where you're like she is being met
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: with some misogyny but doesn't justify the ends, not really,
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: but you know, it must be terrible being the smartest
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: person in the room is, you know, being kind of
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: patronized by her boss, and she says it's awful, and
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: it's like she means it. I loved that. I loved
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: I mean because it's like she she's right, she is
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: right in this situation, and we know she is. And
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: there are still these like these little misogynistic ways where
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: she's treated where I feel like with her relationship with Aaron,
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: there's this expectation that she's going to be maternal towards
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: him in a way that in terms of a working
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: relationship makes no sense at all. But like that he,
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: you know, feels entitled to bargein in her life in
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: whatever way he pleases. He feels entitled to her emotional
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: energy at the drop of a hat for reasons. You know,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: It's like she has to go see him the night
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: that he anchors the news she has you know, she
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: adjusts his clothes, She does all these little maternal things
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: that are not her job, but she clearly feels, you know,
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: compelled or obligated to do for him. That does feel
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: like very I don't know, it's interesting to see those
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: like moments that you're like, oh, this is very intentionally.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: I felt like it was like written very intentionally. It
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: was like a half step towards progress of like is
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: she technically his superior, Yes, but look at how he
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: still feels so entitled her time and her energy in
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: spite of that. This this makes me think about the
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: concept of the work wife, which is I think best
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: left in the twentieth century, but it's the thing that
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: people still talk about a lot, maybe less so now
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 1: that we are in a post COVID world where we
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: are not going to offices and there isn't that forced
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: camaraderie between employees and in a workplace anymore. But there
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: was certainly for many, many years this idea of oh boy,
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: those two they just like they're like peas in a pot,
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: you know, that guy and that woman, and they just
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: have this great relationship. And she's my work wife and
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: he's my work husband. And it's a blurring of the
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: lines that people thought was funny. That was the cause
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: of you know, there was the launching pad for a
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: lot of sitcoms and things of that nature. But it's
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: really like inappropriate ultimately. Uh. And I can look back
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: on you know, workplace relationships friendships where it's like this
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: is we should just be co workers. But because we
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: no one talked about this stuff back then, it was like, oh,
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: this is just how it's supposed to be, you know,
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: we we can you know, have this kind of a
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: meshed codependent work relationship that is allegedly platonic but not
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: necessarily so. And I think that holds back a lot
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: of workplace equality. Is this idea that you can't have
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: these platonic relationships with people, um where you don't have
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: a line, there is no line in the sand of
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: this is okay, this is not okay, and this is
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: work and this is personal. And Aaron certainly has that
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: work wife relationship with Jane that has become terribly inappropriate
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: and it is gendered, as you pointed out, that he
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: is having her mother him. Yeah, he wants her to
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: be his mom, he wants her to be his girlfriend,
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: he wants her to be his best friend. Like it's
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: it's really icky. Yeah, yeah, And it wouldn't be that
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: way if she was not a woman in this situation,
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: that she was not you know, she wouldn't be that
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: for him if she didn't fit the the idea of
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: what he wanted romantically, and if she wasn't a woman,
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: you know, if it was a man, he would probably
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: be intimidated by him, because he's very clearly intimidated by
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: Tom in constant and chech Nichols. Yeah, every event around him,
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: he's constantly being like, well, I'm smarter than you. You
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: know that, right, And it's likely he was a child
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: and he rightfully gets beat up. Scene. Yeah, I was
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: kind of on the bully's side. I hate to say
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: it in that first, I mean to get into the
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: air and stuff. I agree with you, Caitlin that he
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: is definitely the character I like the least of these three,
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: but all I don't know. But it's like, also, I
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: really do hate Tom. I don't know, I have a
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: special kind of hate for Tom. I hate them for
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: different reasons. I guess. I don't know which one's more.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah, it's like the rankings will become clear
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: with conversation. A tough choice. They're both so little bad,
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: Aaron Is. I mean, it's I do feel like it's
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: at least I guess again, the amount of intention because
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: it's It does kind of evade me a little because
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: they feel like there are so many characters that you
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: know throughout history of old media that we're supposed to
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: be like, oh, the lovable misogynist guy, and like, sure
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: he's a little insecure, and sure he punches down to
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: every woman he comes in contact too, but he's a door.
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: He's insecure. And the eighties are like the peak of
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: that had a sad sack. Nebish is the hero in
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: so many of these movies, and you realize in retrospect
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: they are the the antagonists in all of these movies.
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: They're the cause of every problem. It comes off the worst,
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 1: and it's it's because it's like constantly air And is
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: kissing his female coworkers without their consent, just like really
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: lunging and making a go for it. He feels entitled
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: to their time. He makes comments like like that comment
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: you mentioned Dave to Jennifer that was or Kaylie, I
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 1: forget who said, but like that completely inappropriate, like oh
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: you you must you know you would tell anyone you
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: love them, uh kind of thing. The way he acts
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: when the date rape segment is at when you know
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: he's the worst person in the world if there was
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: any doubt he is horrible, and like, I mean, we'll
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: we'll get into that segment because that's like very very interesting.
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: But you know, he has a lot of uh, dislike
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: and just dismissal towards women even when and I think
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: it is kind of like I mean, we've talked about
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: this all the time of of how it tends to
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: be at least more narratively interesting and you know, applicable
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: to see male characters who male audience members can see
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: themselves in. And I can, I can see, you know,
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: watching broadcast news. The casualness of his misogyny and the
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: casualness that he feels entitled to feels not unrealistic. And
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: it's not like a cartoon villain of a misogynist. It's
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: someone who is just projecting onto people who he doesn't
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: think are more powerful than him, and people who he
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: clearly doesn't think are gonna, you know, bring it up
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: or do anything. And I feel like his character is
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: so emblematic of that. He's like, what do you mean,
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: I'm a good guy? Like he's that kind of character,
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: But it's written, so I don't know. I like how
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: his character is written because it does. It feels like
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: a recognizable person who is saying despicable stuff really regularly.
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: But it's so it makes sense that it's normalized in
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: this Yeah, I think it's. Um it's important to note
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: that they cast a comedian in this role. So then
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: and if you cast a comedian, most likely you're going
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: to look at that person as sympathetic, especially when that
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: that type of character was considered heroic. Um. So casting
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 1: someone who is used to kind of begging for affection
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: in the way that all great comedic performers do. Even
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: if you if you have ever performed out a stage
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: and try to get people to laugh, you know how
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: kind of desperate that is, and how like he doesn't
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: want to be loved and I know, right, And so
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: Albert Brooks is able to bring that and that is
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: I think why he was only successful to a point
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: playing the lead in movies like this because one, he
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: and his co writer Monica Johnson, we're writing characters that
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: were loathsome and satirical for him most of the time.
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: But also because even when he's trying to be likable,
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: he's kind of annoying. You kind of don't like this
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: person because he just has this um like you said, this,
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: this underlying kind of menace and misogyny to his characters,
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: um that is softened in probably his most popular movie,
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: like I said, Defending Your Life, where he is the
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 1: romantic lead and he is trying to be a better person,
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: and he does get the girl at the end, and
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: he does kind of almost maybe possibly sort of deserve it,
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: but he's still it starts the movie as this self centered,
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 1: narcissistic person um. So I think there was never a
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: point where he was when he was going to be
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: a super duper movie star on the level of Steve
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: Martin or other other contemporaries of his because he was
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: so attracted to these parts that when a comedian had
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 1: to be unlikable in a in a lead role in
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: a movie, he was the one you went to because
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 1: he could be just likable enough but not afraid to
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: be completely unlikable. And that is again why I love
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: his work so much, is because he projects projects this
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: awareness in this vulnerability and also this um menace that
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 1: is recognizable. I think for a lot of people, a
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 1: lot of men who are looking at themselves and saying
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: I'm not so great. You know, there's a realism and
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: in an honesty to it that is incredibly rare. Even
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 1: when you're playing the most loathsome character in a TV show,
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 1: if you're Steve Carrell in the office, you still kind
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 1: of want to be liked. Albert Brooks most of his movies,
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: he's like, you don't have to like me. Stink and
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: does does he stink? That scene towards the end of
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: the movie where Jane is like, I'm going on this
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: trip with Tom, this is my last chance to see you.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: Let's have lunch or whatever, and he and they're like
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: kind of saying goodbye, and they're like talking about their
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: futures and stuff, and then he says something like, oh,
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 1: here's what's here's how it's going to go down, will
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 1: you know, drift apart a little bit, and then we'll
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 1: reconnect a few years down the road and my son
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: will be there and he'll say something really mean to you,
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: and I'll have to jump in and be like, it's
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: not nice to say something about lonely fat women like that.
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: And it's just really a painful scene. Bad saying that
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 1: to your best friend. I was like, she still kind
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: of forgives him. Yeah, she I feel like there is
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: very much a vibe of like, that's our erin and
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: you're like, but why, why why are you friends er
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: this jackass? Yeah, I think she feels that way. I
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 1: don't think the movie is saying that it's okay. I
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: do think that the movie judges him harshly. And but
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: then when they like, the movie ends on what I
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: think is meant to be this like tender moment of
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: them reconnecting after like seven years and they're catching up,
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: and it's like, Jane get away from him, like this
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: guy sucks. You know, you've got your issues too, but
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: you can do better. And I was just I don't know,
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: I was just very disappointed. Yeah, it would have been
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 1: nice to have some Catharsis for her at some point
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: where she could really tell him off, But the movie
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: does not grant her that, or any of the characters
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: that really. I guess the scene in the airport where
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: Jane gives it to tom And and expresses her outrage
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: at his behavior is the only scene where any character
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 1: is truly dressed down. Everybody else kind of gets away
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 1: scot free with their with their problems, at least at
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 1: least their actual problems, you know, when when Aaron confronts
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: Jane in that restaurant at the end, he is not
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: saying anything true about her. He's not he's not expressing
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: any real issue that she has in her personality. He's
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 1: just being cruel for the sake of being cruel. Yeah,
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, he just like very much projects. I mean,
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: he's just he's the worst. And yet he is not
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: totally wrong about everything that he says, and that is like,
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 1: I feel like that kind of dovetails into the Tom
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: discussion a little bit. We're that scene with with him
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: and Jane where Jane is like, I think I'm falling
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 1: in love with Tom, and Aaron is just being a
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: total fucking baby about everything. He's like, but you're my
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: mom and my wife. What like, He's like spiraling, having
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: a total meltdown and just like peeing his diaper about it.
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: But then he brings up a point that is a
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: pretty good point about how Tom approaches the news and
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: how you know, you know, he said as Tom is
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 1: the devil and which is dramatic, but but also he
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 1: does bring up a point that Jane doesn't want to hear,
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: which is also kind of I thought, like a pretty
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: interesting thing that is like brought into her character of
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 1: like she knows, she's well aware that Tom doesn't know
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: what he's doing, and she knows that because she's doing
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: it for him a lot of the time, and sometimes
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: Aaron's doing it for him. In the case of that
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: big story about Libya where uh, you know, Aaron called
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: Jane and gave Tom the information he needed to look good.
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 1: She knows that because she told Tom off when she
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: first met him, like why are you whining to me?
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: Learn how to do your job? Then like why are
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: you telling me this? Like fuck you? But she's still
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: attracted to him, and she's struggling with that, which I
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 1: guess like if you're a comedian who's head sex with
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 1: a comedian, then you can understand that maybe that I
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: was like that interaction. I was just like I see
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: my life in this at times relatable, Like why doesn't
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 1: anyone laugh when I talk? I'm like, that's a you problem? Um.
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: In any case, like Aaron's view of Tom isn't wrong,
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: and that like Tom does it is kind of the
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: antithesis of what Jane claims to stand for. But she
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: thinks that maybe she could get an area of her
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: life filfelt that she hasn't had fulfilled in a long
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 1: time through him, and so she's getting to the point
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: where she's like, well, maybe I can overlook the ethics
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: of it, and Aaron does bring her back to earth,
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: and it's like, are you sure you can see overlook
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 1: the ethics of it? And it's just so like everyone
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 1: in this situation sucks and is making a huge compromise
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 1: of their morals And I hate that it's Aaron that
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: makes a good point, but I do think he he
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: makes a really good point there, Like he's simply not
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: wrong in that case. I almost wish that it had
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: been her to put the pieces of the puzzle together
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: and figure it out on her own. That Tom had
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: like brought only one camera and that he must have
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 1: staged it, and like, yeah, I don't. I feel like
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: the fact that it's Aaron doing it out of spite
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: and rage and selfishness is it takes some of the
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: thrill of victory away. But I wonder if you know
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: that too. Is The point is is you know, Jane
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: is so lost in her fantasy of who Tom is
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 1: or could be that she can't see so it has
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 1: to be someone else. But it has to be someone
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 1: acting in self interest as opposed to someone who really cares,
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: because none of them really care. All of them are
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: self interested at the end of the day, none of
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: them are truly altruistic in their behavior at all. There
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: is no truly good person in this movie. Everyone just
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: once love or approval or acclaim or esteem. Nobody is
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: thinking about how can I help someone else? I guess
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: on some level there is some altruism from Jane in
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: regards to her her coworkers a little bit, but not really.
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: Or Aaron choosing to leave instead of sticking around so
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: somebody could keep their job. Maybe, but not really. It's
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: still about yourself and self interest. Yeah, not enough not
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: to take the promotion. She's very nice to the people
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 1: who are laid off, but she still takes the promotion.
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: You know, in the same way that like Jack Nicholson,
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: when everyone's laid off, he's the clearest valid where they're
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: you know, they're like, oh, you want to shave a
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: million off of your salary, and he gets like, he's
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: like yeah. He starts histing and spitting, and then Paul
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: is like, I'm so sorry, that was the worst joke
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 1: I've ever made. What a silly joke I made. I
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 1: would never that is why I was not being serious.
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: It was very much a joke. And then Jack Nicholoson
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: goes but then it's like, but but Tom and Jane
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: are very involved in this too, where they you know,
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: they're they're nice to the people who were laid off,
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: but they take their promotion and they're going to go
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 1: on vacation about it. Like I got to clear my head.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: Oh boy, that's that was hard for me. Okay, I
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 1: have a job so hard. I better go to wherever
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: they're going to go about it. Like you know, if
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 1: if you're if you put yourself in the in the
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 1: shoes of you know, Joe Cusack who just got laid off,
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 1: you'd be like, fuck you, you're going on vacation for what.
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: And I do like that exchange between um, Joe Cusack
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 1: and and Jane where she's like, except for socially, you're
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: my role model, which I think passes the Bechdel test.
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: I think that's as close as we get. Wow, that's
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: that's something right, that's something something. It's kind of a
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: funny path. I like it, But I did want to
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: talk about the the actual story read that I think
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 1: is like, you know, I feel like there's this little
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: ambiguity of like, Okay, so Tom is self aware that
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: he doesn't know what his job is, but how far
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: is he willing to go? Is he just going to
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: fail upwards passively or is he going to actively fail upwards?
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 1: And the moment where he the story he chooses is
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: particularly It's again, it's just like this like such an
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 1: ambiguous thing, or it was for me when I like
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 1: put my seven goggles on, because he does a story
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: on date rape, which in n was barely a term
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 1: that existed. It was not a popular discussion and at
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 1: that time would have been a risky broadcast. And I
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: feel like that is reflected in the way that it's received,
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, especially by Erin's like this isn't news. But
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 1: but I don't think that that is like as despicable
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 1: as a reaction as it was. I don't think it
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: would have been an uncommon one um at the time.
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: If this isn't the salt to nuclear dis armament talks,
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 1: who cares? Right? That was? That's the Aaron Altman attitude
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 1: about the news, and to a certain extent, Jaane's attitude
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: about the news, which is it has to be about
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: powerful men and countries and money changing hands and that
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: kind of stuff. But in this I mean, I thought
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: it was really well done the way the way that
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 1: scene was like shot, especially where we know as an
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 1: audience by the end that Tom spotlighted this story for
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 1: completely selfish reasons. He does not actually care about women
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: who are, you know, experiencing date rape. He does not
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: actually care about their stories. This is a side note,
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: but the woman who appears on screen and that news
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 1: item is accredited as date rape woman, so that's unfortunate
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 1: and in any case, uh like he's doing it for
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 1: selfish reasons, but he is championing a story that would
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 1: probably not have been told on the news otherwise, so
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: that's difficult. And then also watching the way that the
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 1: women in the room react to that story as they're
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: watching it was also really interesting where I think that
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 1: was one of Joan Cusacks more plot relevant moments where
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: she tells um she tells Jane like, oh, that happened
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 1: to someone I knew, And there's other women in the
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 1: room who were like reacting in a way of like, oh,
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: I recognize what she's talking about. And there is this clear, Like,
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: you know, we can't know because it's fiction, right, But
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 1: like I would guess that a story like this, even
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: though it was done for the most despicable, selfish, manipulative reasons,
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 1: which is why Tom did it, had probably a net
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 1: good impact because it had the potential to start a
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: conversation no one else was willing to have, to the
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: point where it even got to Jane, who Jane is like, well,
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 1: you know, fuck you for cutting to yourself, like literally
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 1: a Brian Williams move. But I was moved by the story,
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 1: which is a lot from Jane, who does prioritize these
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 1: stories about war and politically influential men, and for for
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 1: her to kind of hand it to any reporter about
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: a story that is about something that commonly happens to women,
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 1: those don't seem to be the kind of stories that
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: she champions, And so I feel like that makes that
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 1: almost I don't know, maybe I'm like reading too far
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 1: into it, but I feel like that that almost from
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 1: her perspective, makes the betrayal of him doing it disingenuously
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: even worse of Like, you know, he got her to
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: consider something as news that she hadn't previously considered as
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: news and then it turned out to be for this
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: really selfish reason and so not only is it unethical,
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: it was like he locked he you know, he was
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: able to get through her bullshit meter, which she can.
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 1: You know, it seems like she can handle almost any
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 1: level of bullshit, but he it was. It just is
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: like a betrayal on so many levels. There's another kind
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 1: of side note love to this where when this movie
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 1: was being filmed, William Hurt who plays Tom and again
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 1: another trigger warning here for sexual assault, but William Hurt
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 1: sexually assaulted his girlfriend at the time. Oh my god,
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: Marley Matlin, Wow, I did not know that. Yeah, I
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: didn't either. So you have this actor playing this character
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 1: who's like championing this story for very selfish reasons, and
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 1: an actor who is committing these atrocities that his character
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 1: is speaking out against, and the whole thing is just
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: a huge mind fuck. I mean, yeah, I think that
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 1: that's the movie makes a point about our society and
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: how we function with each other and the reasons why
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: things happen and why people what motivates people, and that
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 1: particular story is really telling because you know, you can
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 1: look at this movie and say, oh, this you know,
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 1: this was a movie that projected a lot of good
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: things about a gender equality and all of all that
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 1: into the world. But then, you know, you hear about
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 1: something like that and you say, oh, well, this person,
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 1: this real human being who's in this movie was in
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: this movie that you know, a lot of people hold
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 1: up as as as a step forward for feminism in
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 1: in entertainment. He did it for selfish reasons, the same
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: for the same reason. You know, the character he plays
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 1: in the movie puts this story onto the news, and that, unfortunately,
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 1: is why anything happens in a capitalist society. That is
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: the that is the form and function of capitalism when
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 1: it is going well, which is people will do good
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 1: things to satisfy themselves in their own egos, and that
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 1: is how it works. And that's good. You know, good
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 1: things will happen if people have you know, a financial
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 1: or personal stake in it. But that's ultimately not a
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: positive for the world. It is not good for people
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 1: to claim to be doing the right thing but for
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 1: it to really be you know, just for their own benefit,
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 1: and hypocrisy grows and grows and grows because that is
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 1: how we think the system should work, which is giving
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 1: people a praise for doing things in their own self
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: interest as opposed to doing things collectively, or doing things
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 1: altruistically or for a good reason that is centered on
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: other people as opposed to ego. It really breaks your brain. Yeah,
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: does anyone have any other things they want to talk about? Shockingly,
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 1: little black or brown faces in the movie. Oh, this
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 1: is a very very very white movie about a very
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 1: white industry. Oh and that, Yeah, that's there is one
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 1: black reporter, George, who, similar to Joan Cusack's character, could
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 1: be written out of the movie and you wouldn't notice
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 1: because he is in it so infrequently, and his character
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 1: is extremely insignificant to the larger narrative, which is extremely
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 1: unfortunate yet not surprising for a movie. Tokenism was certainly
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 1: very popular back then and still is to a certain extent. Yeah. Yeah,
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 1: and it's like of of of the many I mean,
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 1: it's of the many things that James Brooks seems to
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: want to point out, like, Hey, isn't this exclusion or like,
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: you know, change funked up in this industry? Whiteness never
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 1: comes into the equation. He that's like he interrogates the
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 1: gender dynamics of this workplace, constantly, but he never, never,
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 1: never interrogates the race dynamics of the workplace. Yeah. I
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 1: think there was a point in American culture and we
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 1: only recently got past it where there was this idea
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 1: of well, racism was solved in the sixties. We solved
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 1: it and everything's fine, and there's a black person in
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 1: the newsroom, and isn't that cute boy? He's got a
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 1: job and everything and died a little tie and su wow,
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 1: amazing and does he do what's his life? Like? It
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter? Um, yeah, it is not about him, So
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: move along, sir. Uh. That that is a very common problem,
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 1: and it is why we go from you know, the
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 1: gains of civil rights to seemingly regressing so significantly to
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 1: this point is because we were told the fiction that
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 1: it was solved through things like film and television and
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 1: literature the news like yeah, look at this, look at
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 1: we have diversity. The United Colors have been it on.
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 1: It's real. Everybody's equal. And I think token is had
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 1: the exact opposite result of what they wanted it to have,
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 1: which is that it it made people, um unaware of
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 1: the prejudice that exists. That it made people think that
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 1: things were fine. It created a fiction, and the actual
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 1: fiction perpetuated that that deception for decades until now when
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 1: it's all starting to boil over and people are finally
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 1: talking about it again and saying, it's not enough for
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 1: there to be a black judge in a movie. It's
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 1: not enough for the cops to be black. It's not
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 1: enough for there to be you know, one Latino actor, um,
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 1: and they happen to be playing a criminal and like, well,
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 1: no diversity. Look, we have this whole gang of of
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 1: of criminals and they're they're diverse, Like that is not
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 1: how it works. And it took forever for people to
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 1: see that that is just as harmful as having nothing
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: but white faces in a movie, if not more harmful.
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 1: I think it might be more harmful because it perpetuates
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 1: the fiction. The lie. Definitely. James Brooks, I feel like
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 1: it's just simply ill equipped to like he's he's he's
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 1: accomplished a lot, but commentary on race in any meaningful way.
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 1: It doesn't seem to be anything He's ever even really attempted,
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 1: and when he does, it seems like it is never gone.
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 1: Did you see spanglish? Oh wait, I forgot Spanglish did
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 1: solve racism? Am I right? Correct? Um almost ended his career.
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 1: It was so bad. I saw Spanglish I think in
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 1: elementary school, and I thankfully don't remember a single minute
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 1: of it. I've never seen it. You're fine to say
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 1: he did he direct that? Yes, that was he was
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 1: full on tour still at that point, you know, as
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 1: good as it gains has just recently come out Banglish. Yeah,
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 1: I think it was based on his actual housekeeper. No, wait,
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: this is all don't quote me on that. Looking up
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 1: on literary and academic resource Wikipedia if you want to
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 1: be sure, but I believe that he said something about
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 1: how it was inspired by his own life. Wait, this
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 1: is boom, holy sh it. Okay, this is news to me,
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 1: and I'm upset. This is broadcast news, this is brought.
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 1: Yet I feel a deep sympathy for James L. Brooks.
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 1: Just kidding. Yeah, well, fuck, folks, just take this as
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 1: a lesson if you are if you think you are
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: the hero of your own story, you're not okay. And
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 1: that is what I think movies and TV shows and
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 1: literature have done for men of all races, is to
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 1: say you are the hero of your story and everyone
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 1: wants to hear your story. Isn't that great? No? Now,
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 1: Albert Brooks was right. He is the villain of his
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 1: own story. I am the villain of my own story,
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 1: and all I can do every day when I wake
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 1: up is to be slightly less bad. I don't think
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 1: I'm horrible, but I think that I make tons of mistakes.
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 1: And uh, this movie is it has its heart in
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 1: the right place ultimately, but it is very unsuccessful at
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: a myriad of things, and I think we pointed most
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 1: of them out. I'm sure we missed some, but you
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 1: could always be better, folks. That is. That is the
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 1: one thing I hope everybody takes from from life is like, man,
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 1: we're messing up all the time. We can try to
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 1: be a little bit better tomorrow. Maybe you know where
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 1: where a work in progress all of us, and some
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 1: of us are progressing at a different rate than others,
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 1: or backwards or going the other way. We're simply refusing it.
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 1: But we said enough about this movie, haven't we? I
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 1: think so. I think it does pass the Bechdel test.
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 1: In the like again, Blair is like, hey, Jane, can
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 1: I tell you something? Jane? Yeah, Blair, except for socially,
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 1: you're my role model. It also, I does think passes
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 1: while they're watching the broadcast of the date rape story
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 1: where Blair says that happened to my cousin Donna and
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 1: Jane says really. So those are two extremely bleak passes,
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 1: potentially their technical passes that again are not I think
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 1: they are like impactful towards this story, but they're they're
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 1: not particularly uplifting or long. I would say that this
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 1: does technically pass, but not well, can I disagree it passes? Okay,
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 1: So two reasons why I think it does not pass.
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 1: Number One, in that scene in question, where there is
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: the video package about date rape, they are talking not
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 1: just about the thing that has happened to junqu sex
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 1: character's friend, they're also talking about the package itself that
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 1: is produced in Stars Tom. So Tom is still kind
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 1: of centered in this conversation. They're not able to separate
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 1: the contents of the package from the fact that it
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 1: is made by Tom, so they never really have a
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 1: true conversation about that issue. It is in reference to
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 1: this thing by a man exactly. And then when um,
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 1: she's talking about how Jane is her role model except
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 1: for socially you could interpret socially to mean romance of
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 1: a heterosexualat and so I just feel like it so
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 1: marginal and so fleeting that it would be unfair to
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 1: the test itself to pass this movie. This happens all
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 1: the time where we'll come upon conversations in which a
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 1: man is not explicitly mentioned or talked about, but it's
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 1: like implicit or the context or the subtext is still
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 1: about men do to quote a great to quote Homer Simpson,
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 1: a James L. Brooks creation, perhaps dough. I'll give it
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 1: a light pass, but also ultimately it's a flawed metric
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 1: that we barely with all due respect to Alice, Yes, yeah,
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 1: but but the nipple scale, though, is an amazing metric.
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 1: That's what I call em. Actually is awesome, and that's
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 1: what I call a metric. Um So the nipple scale
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 1: is our scale of zero to five nipples based on
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 1: an examination of intersectional feminism as it applies to the movie,
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 1: or how the movie fairs looking at it through that
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 1: particular lens. As we've discussed, this is a challenging movie.
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 1: This is a complex movie. This is a very interesting
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 1: movie that tackles a lot of things, that explores characters
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 1: and develops them in such a way that they are
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 1: far more just like complex and interesting than your average
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 1: romantic comedy dramay narrative. And like Jane, especially the way
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 1: that she's depicted, the way in which the toxicity that
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 1: the men are displaying, the way that all these characters
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 1: in these situations are being commented on. I mean, there's
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 1: a lot happening. Um how effective it is. You know,
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 1: it was the eighties, so certain things get overlooked, but
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 1: other things, like the commentary is very clear and present
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 1: and interesting. And I'm just stalling because I have no alright,
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 1: is there a number? How many nipples? I give it? Yeah?
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's just sort of like a split down the middle,
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 1: So maybe a two point five nipples situation. I wish
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't even know what I wish
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 1: for this movie or for movies like it. I wish
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 1: we could all kick William Hurt in the face. How
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 1: about that. I want to kick him, give him a
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 1: big old wedge. I want to thank you for that
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 1: context of him too, because I did not know that,
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 1: and that is, yeah, very upsetting. I came upon that
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 1: in my research a link to there's an article pulls
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 1: quotes from Marley Matlin's memoir Shout Out Marley Matlin Who Rocks,
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 1: in which she details the nature of her relationship with
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 1: William Hurt, which sounds like it was extremely emotionally, physically
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 1: and sexually abusive. So fuck William Hurt, his character, the
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 1: character of Aaron. Everyone just needs to go to therapy. Yeah,
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna give it to you and a
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 1: half as well. I feel like this is like a
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 1: really really I think the movie is really great, and
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 1: I like every time I watch it, I get something
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 1: new out of it that I didn't get before. I
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 1: think in terms of commentary on women, it's pretty limited
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 1: just based on the setting that we're being put in.
• 1:55:49
  Speaker 1: We're really only getting to know a single woman who
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 1: is very complex but also very ethically complex. And you know,
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 1: I'm not like saying that every email character needs to
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 1: be a role model. That's an unnecessary thing that's pushed
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 1: on a character that's marginalized in any way of all
• 1:56:06
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, they have to be a role model
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 1: for fucking everybody. That's not true. But Jane is ultimately
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 1: a girl boss who's in it for herself, like I
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 1: don't think we're getting a ton of I think that
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 1: we do get some really valuable insight into the ways
• 1:56:20
  Speaker 1: that she has to suppress herself and she has to
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 1: suppress her own emotions. She's under a lot of pressure.
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 1: There is a lot of pressure for her specifically to succeed.
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 1: If she fails, it indicates something larger to this industry
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 1: than an individual failure. Like I think that that all
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 1: comes across and the fact that like you, like you
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, Davi, the men around her are vampires who um.
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 1: I think it is an interesting look at a character
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 1: that it has been, you know, somewhat liberated by the
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 1: feminist movement as a you know, upwardly mobile white woman.
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 1: You know, she has been liberated to an extent, but
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 1: there are still all of these asterisks associated with her
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 1: being able to function in this space. She's still going
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 1: to be treated like a mother. She's still going to
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 1: be you know, if she's valued for her intelligence, it
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 1: that is at the sacrifice of something else. And there's
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: still a lot of stuff that play there, and she
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 1: she shouldn't have done that to Jennifer, you know, like
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 1: there was an opportunity to explore the relationships between women
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 1: in a workplace like this that didn't end up happening
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 1: in favor of this, you know, love trianglly bizarreness, like
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 1: there was just room for more. But I do think
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 1: that what is explored holds up maybe in a way
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 1: that's kind of unfortunate, that is like, oh, maybe not,
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe James Brooks hoped that more would be
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 1: different by now. I don't know, but it's definitely like
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 1: a really well thought out movie. And you know, and
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 1: and go Polly Platt. I'm glad that she got her first.
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, like her story alone and how it intersects
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 1: with this movie is a fascinat ending look at women
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 1: in the workplace at this time too. So give it
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 1: two and a half. I'll give one to Polly, I'll
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 1: give one to Holly, and I'll give a half to Joan.
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 1: Give it to Joan. Do I have to give nipples? Yes? Please?
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 1: All right? I mean I feel ill equipped to rate
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 1: this on any sort of inter sexual, intersectional feminist scale
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 1: because I'm a guy, and because I think for many
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 1: years I saw this as a paragon of feminist theory
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 1: in thinking, and that is because of my own Um,
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 1: you know, lack of understanding or awareness of of these things,
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 1: because it's not we're not taught these things in school,
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 1: you know, we're not taught how to look at things
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 1: differently and to empathize and put ourselves in the shoes
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 1: of marginalized people were taught to be. It's like I said,
• 1:58:53
  Speaker 1: it's very selfish and very self self centered, and to
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 1: look at the world through a white male lens. So
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 1: it's hard for me to say this is acceptable or unacceptable,
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 1: or this is enough or this is not enough. But
• 1:59:05
  Speaker 1: I will say just from my own perspective and what
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 1: I took from it as a man who is of
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 1: a certain age and from a certain generation, and seeing
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 1: the flowering of of people's perception of the world and
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 1: our our collective common struggle. Um, it was enlightening to
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 1: me every step of my life. Every time I watch it,
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 1: I think I learned something new, like you do, Jamie,
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 1: every time I watch it. And you know, when I
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 1: watched it the first time, it was, oh, this is
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 1: a you know, this is a feminist masterpiece, etcetera, etcetera.
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 1: When I watch it now, I get so much more
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 1: from the male characters because I can put myself into
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 1: the shoes of these loaths and male characters and say, oh,
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 1: here are things that maybe I thought before. We're okay
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 1: and aren't okay. And I can understand my effect on
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 1: people a little bit more. I can understand my effect
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 1: on women in the workplace a little bit more. I
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 1: can understand why I want or need certain attention from
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 1: women a little bit more, and why that may or
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 1: may not be damaging to them. That is what I
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 1: take from this movie more than anything else, is it
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 1: forces me to be a bit more introspective about who
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 1: I was raised to be and who I would like
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 1: to be going forward. And I think that's that's what
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 1: makes it a movie that I keep coming back to,
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 1: is because it is ultimately a satire about how we
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 1: talk to each other and why the world is the
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 1: way that it is from the micro level of the
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 1: news and the macro level of how men and women
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 1: or genders or sexuality functions in the world. So, yeah,
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 1: I will give zero nipples, but I will give it
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 1: two thumbs up, just like my good friends Siskel and Ebert. Yeah,
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 1: I just I just don't think I could. I can
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 1: judge it that way. I have to. I have to
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 1: judge it based on like what I'm learning from and
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 1: I think totally fair. Well, Dave, thank you so much
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 1: for joining us. What an I could have continued to
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 1: talk about this movie for another two hours, but that's
• 2:01:15
  Speaker 1: just that's too much. We went as long as the
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 1: actual movie right to do Right tell us where people
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 1: can follow you on social media, plug anything you'd like
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 1: to plug. Uh, I am at Dave underscore shilling on Twitter.
• 2:01:34
  Speaker 1: Please when you have time free, spare time, subscribe, follow,
• 2:01:40
  Speaker 1: Listen to Galaxy Brains. Uh. It is my new podcast.
• 2:01:45
  Speaker 1: My co host and I Jonah Ray talk about movies, television,
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 1: all of the pop culture things that we love, but
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 1: from a kind of comedically analytical perspective, hence the title
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 1: Galaxy Brain. So we we we will take a an
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 1: outlandish theory about a movie or a television show and
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 1: extrapolate upon that too. It's most absurd uh logical or
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 1: I guess illogical conclusion. We've done episodes about the Zack
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 1: s Nyder Justice League where we talk about the nature
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 1: of Superman and I end up giving a kind of
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 1: passionate speech about why Superman should be sad because he
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 1: is responsible for everyone else in the world. And why
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 1: he should be black. We talk about Godzilla versus Kong
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 1: and try to figure out what Godzilla represents in that movie. Uh.
• 2:02:38
  Speaker 1: We have an episode about Mortal Kombat and my moral
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 1: Kombat and professional wrestling are basically the same thing. Uh.
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 1: We talked to Patton Oswalt about Star Wars and uh,
• 2:02:49
  Speaker 1: the efficacy of animation versus live action in that universe.
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 1: And the episode I'm most excited about that we just
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 1: finished recording is a look back at Joe's and the
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 1: Pussycats for the anniversary, and we discussed whether or not
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 1: Josie and the Pussycats is not just a feminist film,
• 2:03:09
  Speaker 1: but also is it the most anti capitalist socialist movie
• 2:03:12
  Speaker 1: of all time? And our guests for that episode are
• 2:03:17
  Speaker 1: the writers and directors of Josie and the Pussycats, Deborah
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 1: Kathleen Harry Elfont. They were such a treat and spoiler alert,
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 1: they agreed with everything we had to say, and they
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 1: were very much appreciative of our reading of the movie.
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 1: So I hope you listen to that one at the
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 1: very least, because I think that's the one I'm the
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 1: most proud of because we got to really chop it
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 1: up with the people behind the movie and hear their
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 1: perspective on why they were able to and what they
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 1: hope to gain from making a movie that was so
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 1: very much about collective action and socialist thinking and feminist thinking.
• 2:03:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, Josie and the Pussycats is the best movie
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 1: ever joined the army because we did talk about subliminal
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 1: advertising too, and how it clearly worked on me because
• 2:04:01
  Speaker 1: I've seen the movie so many times. Oh my gosh,
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 1: it's same. I have not one, but two T shirts.
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 1: Did you get to do your T shirt? No, but
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 1: I have seen it on super yocky and I am
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 1: getting ready to buy it. Yeah. I know. Um well, Dave,
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. You you can
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 1: follow us on social media at Spectacle Cast on Twitter
• 2:04:30
  Speaker 1: and Instagram. We've got a Patreon a k a Matreon
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 1: to subscribe to. It's five dollars a month and it
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 1: gets you access to two bonus episodes every single month,
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 1: plus access to the entire back catalog. And you can
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 1: grab some merch over at t public dot com. Slash
• 2:04:50
  Speaker 1: the betel Cast. Get some masks if you're still getting masks,
• 2:04:53
  Speaker 1: Got some T shirts if you're still wearing shirts. Live
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 1: your life not my business. Uh and are we signing off?
• 2:05:00
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, good night and good luck more at
• 2:05:05
  Speaker 1: eleven A great way to end it.