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Episode 46: The Devil On Trial · Deadly Divas True Crime Podcast

• 0:11
  Hello, all you true crime divas and dudes.
• 0:14
  I'm Sarah, and welcome back to your favorite true crime podcast, Deadly Divas.
• 0:19
  And I'm Tina, and if you're new here, welcome.
• 0:22
  We break down a new true crime case for you every Friday.
• 0:26
  So carrying on our spooky theme for October, today I am bringing you the story of Arne Cheyenne Johnson from the Netflix documentary The Devil on Trial.
• 0:37
  And today's episode includes claims of demonic possession and murder by stabbing, so please decide if these are themes that you are comfortable with before listening.
• 0:48
  Frankly, y'all, this one scares the crap out of me.
• 0:52
  And yes, you heard that correctly, demonic possession.
• 0:56
  Mm.
• 0:57
  Right?
• 0:57
  So this story actually starts with Arne's nephew, David Glatzel, who at the age of 11 was seemingly possessed by a demon.
• 1:07
  I'm scared already.
• 1:08
  I have chills, y'all.
• 1:09
  So Arne was actually engaged to Debbie Glatzel, and David was Debbie's youngest brother.
• 1:16
  Arne and Debbie had found a house to rent,'cause they were planning on moving in together, and before moving into the house, Debbie and her three brothers went there to clean it up, ready for the move.
• 1:27
  Now, David was particularly uncomfortable inside the house and even after they left, David was really quiet and withdrawn.
• 1:35
  So once they got home, they asked him to explain exactly what it was that had upset him.
• 1:40
  He said while he was alone upstairs cleaning a bedroom, a weird force had pushed him backwards onto the bed, and he saw a vision of a demon-like character with black eyes Who told him to,"Beware.
• 1:56
  I am going to come for you and take your soul." Oh my goodness.
• 2:01
  And if y'all haven't watched the documentary, you should.
• 2:05
  But in that documentary, when he is explaining this, he is saying it with absolute conviction.
• 2:12
  Like, I don't believe that he is lying.
• 2:15
  He really believes that this happened.
• 2:17
  Yeah, and the voices that he puts on, repeating, like, what this demon said, his voice completely changes.
• 2:24
  Yeah.
• 2:25
  So the rest of the family think David must be tired or- or he's dreaming, and they just dismiss the claims.
• 2:31
  He's just 11, remember?
• 2:32
  But David could not shake the feeling something was coming after him and watching him, Arnie and Debbie claim to have heard some strange noises in the attic at the rental house, but never saw or heard a figure of any kind.
• 2:48
  And I guess strange noises in the attic is something that's easy to justify, isn't it?
• 2:52
  Rats, squirrels, bats, whatever.
• 2:55
  Or the house settling, blah, blah, blah.
• 2:56
  Blah, blah, yeah.
• 2:58
  Being a religious family, David's mom had their priest come over to the house and bless it, you know, just in case.
• 3:04
  Worth a try.
• 3:05
  Why not?
• 3:05
  But just a night or two after that blessing, David, not at the rental house, but at his own home, wakes up screaming,"He's coming for me." And the rest of the family say the house felt like it was experiencing an earthquake.
• 3:21
  It just started shuddering uncontrollably for a good, like, five seconds.
• 3:26
  Oh my goodness.
• 3:27
  Now the family are taking more notice of David's visions and feelings, and in some reports they apparently found bruises and scratches on David that came from nowhere.
• 3:37
  There's no actual photographic evidence of that,'cause they really didn't start photographing stuff till later on, but they claim he had bruises and scratches all over him after these episodes.
• 3:47
  Now, we did discuss how if you were having some kind of convulsions, you may bruise or scratch yourself and have no recollection of it.
• 3:55
  Debbie and Arnie ultimately decide to no longer rent the house.
• 3:59
  Shocker.
• 4:00
  Can't blame them.
• 4:01
  Right.
• 4:02
  Smart move.
• 4:03
  But David continues to experience strange visions and voices, even once the house is out the picture.
• 4:09
  Hell no.
• 4:10
  So Debbie Glatzel contacts celebrity self-proclaimed ghost hunters Ed and Lorraine Warren, and asks them for help.
• 4:19
  This is where shit gets real Ed Warren calls himself a demonologist, and Lorraine is more of a kind of psychic or a medium.
• 4:30
  At first, the Warrens agree to come and meet David and bring a doctor with them to confirm that David has no other health issues to speak of that may be affecting that behavior.
• 4:39
  They interview David, but they also want to experience something for themselves before they can really do anything to help.
• 4:46
  And it's not long before they do actually experience David having an episode or reaction, during which Lorraine claims to see a dark mist appear by David, and she says,"That's no ghost.
• 4:59
  That's a demonic entity." Terrifying.
• 5:02
  Now, this scares the crap out of the entire family.
• 5:05
  Scared me too, y'all.
• 5:06
  Ed Warren tells them,"You're gonna need some help from the Catholic Church, and I'm gonna help you get it." In the meantime, they tell the family to watch David very closely, and his actions get weirder and weirder.
• 5:19
  His voice takes on different tones.
• 5:21
  He starts to shout obscenities.
• 5:23
  His body appears to be fighting off something or someone.
• 5:28
  Something is trying to strangle him, and red marks start appearing around his neck Oh my God Sometimes even during the day, David would suddenly start to hiss or growl or speak in tongues.
• 5:43
  And again, if you guys haven't watched this documentary, that is on there, and it sounds...
• 5:49
  I mean, it doesn't sound like an 11-year-old boy when he's doing it.
• 5:52
  It sounds absolutely horrifying.
• 5:55
  And I'm very skeptical about all this kind of stuff, but I have to say the footage on that documentary was really quite disturbing.
• 6:01
  Agree.
• 6:02
  When these Occurrences are not happening, David has no recollection of them.
• 6:07
  David would sometimes even attack them randomly and not remember it, and they took it in turns to stay up at night and watch him, but in pairs, because they were scared to stay with him alone.
• 6:17
  That is telling, that they wouldn't even watch him alone.
• 6:21
  They needed a buddy.
• 6:22
  Right.
• 6:22
  Your own son or brother who's only 11 years old, you're like,"No, I'm not staying up to watch him.
• 6:28
  He's possessed by a demon." Right.
• 6:30
  They report back to Ed and Lorraine, who tell them David is under possession, and only an exorcism can stop the progression.
• 6:39
  Hmm.
• 6:39
  So the family start the paperwork to request an exorcism.
• 6:43
  Who knew?
• 6:44
  Paperwork.
• 6:45
  Right, paperwork.
• 6:47
  Wonder what those forms look like.
• 6:48
  It's like, fill this out in triplicate and hand it in at the third window.
• 6:52
  And be sure to get it notarized.
• 6:54
  They fill out the Paperwork to request an exorcism from the Catholic Church, but find out that it's not actually an easy thing to achieve, mostly because most of the priests want nothing to do with them.
• 7:04
  Ooh.
• 7:05
  I mean, if I signed up to be a priest, I'd be like,"No, I'm here for the good part." Right?
• 7:09
  Give me some communion and leave me alone I wanna marry a couple of people, not exorcize any demons.
• 7:15
  So after a couple of attempted exorcisms at David's home, which Lorraine reports caused David to convulse and one time levitate- Oh my God they eventually find a Catholic cardinal who will perform an exorcism on behalf of the Catholic Church to take place inside a church.
• 7:34
  Now, during one of the earlier attempts, Lorraine claims that David predicted that a murder would happen early the next year Oh.
• 7:44
  A murder that would be something to do with this family and this demon, and we're not sure, like, quite what he said, but it was during the exorcism.
• 7:52
  Hmm.
• 7:53
  Or an exorcism attempt.
• 7:54
  So at the church exorcism, while reciting prayers, the family reported that the temperature dropped suddenly to, like, ice cold in the entire church.
• 8:05
  Terrifying.
• 8:07
  And David started to convulse and spit abuse at the priest, and even try to attack him.
• 8:13
  Wow.
• 8:14
  They continued to use crucifixes and prayers to expel the demon, until eventually David's tongue swells up so much he is in danger of not being able to breathe.
• 8:27
  He's, like, asphyxiating as if he had some allergy or something.
• 8:31
  This gets really scary for the family,'cause this poor 11-year-old boy can't breathe.
• 8:36
  Right.
• 8:37
  So Arnie tells the demon,"Leave this little boy alone and take me on." Oh, hell.
• 8:43
  Immediately after Arnie said this, his body turned ice cold.
• 8:48
  Oh, shit.
• 8:49
  Everyone is shocked that Arnie would say that, but David appears to be free of the demon now.
• 8:55
  So the family were happy about that part.
• 8:57
  David's back to his normal self.
• 8:59
  He's demon-free.
• 9:00
  He's an 11-year-old boy again.
• 9:02
  Okay, that's the end of the story.
• 9:03
  Have a great one.
• 9:04
  Bye.
• 9:07
  Well, Ed and Lorraine Warren are very upset that Arne had invited the demon in, and they go to the police department, and Lorraine tries to tell this local police department,"I'm a psychic, and I know something bad's gonna happen because of this.
• 9:23
  David predicted it, and now the demon's in Arne." Of course, the police are looking at her like she needs to be committed.
• 9:30
  Right.
• 9:30
  Right?
• 9:31
  As you would, yeah.
• 9:32
  I mean, what are they supposed to do even if they believed her?
• 9:35
  "Okay, we'll look out for potential murders." Right, like- We don't know who or where or when.
• 9:41
  Arne and Debbie are ready to move on with their lives.
• 9:44
  They've now found some peace.
• 9:46
  Debbie's working as a dog groomer at a kennel.
• 9:49
  The kennel is owned by a man named Alan Bono, and he was also their landlord because there was an apartment at the kennels that he rented out to the two of them.
• 9:58
  So you know, great, she's found a job, they found a new place to live that's not possessed by demons.
• 10:03
  So things are looking up.
• 10:05
  They're looking up for Debbie and Arne.
• 10:07
  Or are they?
• 10:07
  Debbie says, Here's our but, she becomes more and more concerned that Arne has been possessed by the demon because he starts having episodes of hissing, spitting, and experiencing hallucinations that he doesn't remember after.
• 10:25
  Oh, no, this is not good.
• 10:27
  Oh, Arne.
• 10:28
  Oh, Arne.
• 10:30
  Five months after the exorcism in February 1981, Arne calls out sick from work.
• 10:36
  He, Debbie, his sister Wanda, Debbie's young niece Mary, they all meet Alan for lunch at a local bar.
• 10:43
  They're having a chill day.
• 10:45
  Okay.
• 10:46
  Everyone has a glass or two of wine, but Alan has a little more than the others and starts to get, like, obnoxiously intoxicated.
• 10:53
  I hate that person.
• 10:55
  Same.
• 10:55
  There's always that person So they all head back to the kennel that Alan owned and that Debbie and Arne lived and worked at.
• 11:03
  And then things just got out of hand.
• 11:05
  So here's the accounts from people that were at the scene.
• 11:08
  It appears that Alan got agitated due to his extreme intoxication, and suddenly grabs Mary and won't let her go, and she's the nine-year-old niece of Debbie.
• 11:19
  So this is kind of upsetting everybody.
• 11:21
  So Arne springs to her defense, but then things start to get heated.
• 11:25
  There's pushing and shoving between Arne and Alan, and then Arne starts growling and spitting and hissing, and then suddenly pulls out a five-inch pocket knife that he often carried on him and starts repeatedly stabbing Alan.
• 11:41
  That escalated quickly.
• 11:42
  Yeah, it did.
• 11:43
  When Debbie and David's mom receives a phone call that something bad is happening down at the kennels, David tells her that he's had a vision and tells her and his brother,"Alan Bonhomme's dead, and the demon did it." See, that's compelling.
• 11:58
  Like, how can you explain that?
• 12:00
  It's chilling, isn't it?
• 12:01
  The police receive a call that a stabbing has taken place, and Debbie tells them that Alan and Arne had both been drinking and got into an altercation, and Arne had pulled a knife out- Wow and repeatedly stabbed Alan.
• 12:13
  So I mean, that's her report of what happened.
• 12:15
  Wow.
• 12:16
  Debbie tells them that Arne had run off into the woods.
• 12:18
  And at the same time, Debbie's telling his brother,"I can feel Arne coming towards us.
• 12:24
  I know he's possessed, and he's on his way here to kill me." Holy shit.
• 12:30
  Yeah.
• 12:30
  And this boy's no longer possessed, so where this stuff is coming from, we don't know.
• 12:34
  So David and his brothers barricade themselves inside their house.
• 12:39
  'Cause you know, that's enough to scare a bunch of kids.
• 12:41
  Right.
• 12:42
  But the ambulance driver who had just taken Alan to the hospital to try and get treated for his pretty severe stabs, sees Arne and reports his whereabouts to the police, and he is soon taken into custody.
• 12:55
  And I just wanna tell you guys right now, Arne is only 19 years old.
• 12:59
  Wow.
• 13:00
  He's, like, still a teenager.
• 13:02
  Now, at this point, Arne has no recollection of what happened, and he doesn't even believe the police when they arrest him for assault.
• 13:10
  'Cause at this point in time, Alan's still fighting for his life, so it's still an assault.
• 13:15
  But Arne is like,"I didn't stab my friend.
• 13:17
  I don't know what you're talking about." Okay.
• 13:22
  Now, later, after Alan passes, the authorities tell Arne,"Alan didn't make it, and the charge against you is now murder." Mm.
• 13:31
  And he becomes incoherently manic, and then passes out for, like, 25 minutes.
• 13:37
  Wow.
• 13:38
  And so begins a trial with the defense argument being that Arne was not responsible for the murder due to being possessed by a demon at the time.
• 13:46
  Wow.
• 13:47
  I didn't do it.
• 13:48
  I was possessed.
• 13:49
  Right.
• 13:50
  I didn't max out all my credit cards.
• 13:52
  What?
• 13:52
  That was the demon inside of me.
• 13:54
  Yeah.
• 13:55
  I, I should try that one.
• 13:56
  That's a good one, the shopping demon.
• 13:57
  Right?
• 13:58
  Now, Ed and Lorraine Warren,'cause of course they are resurfacing with all this, they even tried to tell authorities that Arne was not in control of his body.
• 14:06
  He was possessed.
• 14:08
  They play the audio tapes that they recorded while dealing with David's possession to the authorities.
• 14:13
  This is their proof, you know?
• 14:14
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:15
  There was a demon.
• 14:15
  Look, hear this.
• 14:16
  Right.
• 14:17
  And those are the ones that you see on the documentary.
• 14:19
  They are quite compelling.
• 14:21
  The family managed to find a lawyer who sides with them.
• 14:23
  He believes Arne was possessed, and he agrees to fight for him.
• 14:27
  Wow.
• 14:27
  That- I can't believe they found a lawyer That, that must have been quite the challenge.
• 14:31
  I mean, a lawyer has to defend you whether you're innocent or not, but to find one that actually believes you are in this circumstance, or at least says they were.
• 14:40
  Yeah.
• 14:40
  I don't know.
• 14:41
  Ed and Lorraine found the lawyer.
• 14:43
  Mm.
• 14:44
  We're not sure that they're completely on the up and up, are we?
• 14:47
  Mm, definitely not.
• 14:48
  So although there have been cases in Europe that have been won due to a demonic possession defense- No cases have ever been won in America using that defense.
• 14:59
  So when you say Europe, you're talking about cases in England, yes?
• 15:03
  I don't know if all the cases were England, but I definitely know that a handful of cases were England.
• 15:08
  Okay.
• 15:09
  I wanna discuss that at the end.
• 15:11
  Okay.
• 15:12
  No, I'm not possessed.
• 15:13
  I wasn't thinking that until you said it.
• 15:15
  Thanks.
• 15:16
  But this doll behind me is.
• 15:18
  No, literally, y'all.
• 15:19
  So the case became known as the Devil Made Me Do It case.
• 15:23
  David's brother Carl has a different recollection of the possession.
• 15:27
  Now, he remembers the Warrens leading them on, basically telling David how to behave and seeing David stop the supposed behavior when his father got mad at him, which was interesting.
• 15:40
  Yes, and the Warrens have a history of doing scams like this, like with the Amityville house, so.
• 15:48
  Yeah, it seems like they're given a little information, and they just feed that fuel for the fire.
• 15:53
  Mm-hmm.
• 15:54
  And the way he describes it is not like they were saying,"Hey, David, you should do this," or,"Hey, David, you should do that," but that they would all be, you know, sitting there in the family home, and they were like,"Oh, if he was possessed, he would be acting this way," within earshot of David.
• 16:08
  Yeah, so definitely the power of suggestion, Now, Carl was one of the first people at the scene after Alan Bono was stabbed before the ambulance got him And he was just 15 years old, and he remembers Alan gasping for air as he died.
• 16:24
  And he believes the stabbing was a result of a relationship Debbie had formerly had with Alan.
• 16:30
  So to backtrack a little bit, she had dated Alan, and that's how she knew him before she even met Arne.
• 16:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 16:37
  But according to Debbie, there was nothing current going on.
• 16:40
  This was something that happened way before she met Arne, and she agreed to come and work for Alan because she already knew him.
• 16:46
  Now, that doesn't mean that Arne wasn't ever jealous of the fact that they'd had a previous relationship.
• 16:52
  Let's remember, he's 19.
• 16:54
  Mm-hmm.
• 16:54
  Not super mature at that age.
• 16:57
  So who knows, even if the fight wasn't over that, maybe there was some resentment in the back of his mind about that fact as well.
• 17:04
  I would say that that's probable.
• 17:06
  So the rest of the family believe that Arne is innocent of murder, and along with the Warrens, believe that Arne cannot be found guilty.
• 17:14
  But he is potentially facing 25 years to life in prison.
• 17:19
  The judge rules that demonic possession is not a valid defense, and he will not permit any testimony concerning it at the trial.
• 17:28
  Kinda can't blame him.
• 17:29
  I kinda can't blame him, but that was their whole defense.
• 17:32
  Like, why even have a trial now?
• 17:33
  Right?
• 17:34
  Just say,"I did it." Or no contest or Alfred Plea or something.
• 17:38
  But if your whole defense is,"The devil made me do it," and then the judge says,"Well, you can't mention that in court," why are you even going to court?
• 17:45
  What are you gonna tell the jury?
• 17:46
  Why waste our tax dollars, y'all?
• 17:48
  So as a result, Arne's lawyers go for manslaughter due to self-defense, which the jury find him guilty of, and the judge gives Arne the maximum sentence of 10 to 20 years in a maximum security facility Debbie's devastated, but Arne says,"You need to go on and live your life.
• 18:06
  You need to forget about me.
• 18:07
  You need to find somebody else.
• 18:09
  Go and live your life." But she stands by her man, maintaining his innocence, which I thought was very interesting when she was the one that witnessed everything, and with the account that she gave the police about how he just pulled out a knife and started stabbing him.
• 18:23
  She must 100% be fully invested in this,"He can't be held responsible because he had a demonic possession." Yeah, I mean, she would have to be.
• 18:32
  Now, both Carl Glatzel, who says this didn't happen, and David Glatzel, who says,"Absolutely, yes, I was possessed," say that the Warrens made all the money from the publicity and the TV and the movie deals as a result of the family's story.
• 18:48
  So they cashed in on their drama.
• 18:51
  Right.
• 18:52
  In 1983, author Gerard Brittle released the book The Devil in Connecticut, with Lorraine Warren as a co-writer.
• 19:00
  Hmm.
• 19:02
  And although the Warrens claimed that the book's profits were split fairly amongst the Glatzel family, reports show they only ever received a couple of thousand dollars, like total.
• 19:13
  Not each, the entire family received a couple of thousand dollars.
• 19:16
  Whereas Ed and Lorraine have been reported to make about$81,000 each.
• 19:21
  Yeah, that's nothing.
• 19:22
  For everything that they went through, that's nothing.
• 19:25
  It's not split fairly in any way, shape, or form.
• 19:28
  No.
• 19:28
  Now, in 2006, when it was reprinted, David Glatzel and his brother Carl Glatzel filed a lawsuit against the author Gerard Brittle and the publishers of the book Devil in Connecticut, as well as paranormal investigators Ed and Lorraine Warren for privacy violations, alleging the book disclosed private family matters without their consent; libel, claiming the book made false statements that harmed their reputation Intentional infliction of emotional distress, asserting the depictions caused them significant emotional harm.
• 20:07
  Now, Brittle defended his work.
• 20:09
  He stated that,"It's based on facts, and I have interviewed the Glatzel family members for over 100 hours and have video evidence to support this." Okay.
• 20:18
  Lorraine Warren also testified that the six priests who exorcized David all agree that he had been possessed.
• 20:26
  Now, all of them had agreed to testify at the trial.
• 20:29
  They were all ready to walk in that courtroom and be like,"Yes, we treated this boy there was a definite demonic possession." But as soon as the judge was like,"You can't allow any of that in," they didn't get to say their part.
• 20:41
  Right, that all went out the window.
• 20:42
  Exactly.
• 20:43
  Public records and media reports do not indicate that the lawsuit resulted in a published judgment or settlement, which kind of reads into maybe somebody was paid off somewhere and everything was swept under the carpet.
• 20:57
  That's what I think.
• 20:57
  I think that the Warrens paid them off.
• 21:00
  Right.
• 21:01
  They took some of that 81,000 and actually did split it fairly so that they didn't look stupid, because then all of their other work with all of the other things that they've cashed in on would also have been in doubt, wouldn't they?
• 21:12
  Right.
• 21:13
  Now, Arne Cheyenne Johnson was released from prison for good behavior just a month shy of five years in 1986, and he is still alive today.
• 21:25
  I'm not sure when you get 10 to 20 how you manage to do a little less than five.
• 21:29
  Yeah, for murdering somebody, stabbing them?
• 21:31
  I have no idea.
• 21:32
  Five years seems pretty light unless he was eligible for parole after five and he was just an outstanding prisoner.
• 21:39
  I mean, on the documentary he very much seemed like the clean cut, nice, average guy.
• 21:45
  Like- On the documentary I found him one of the most convincing people in the whole thing.
• 21:50
  I found him more convincing than David.
• 21:52
  Yeah, I agree.
• 21:53
  Now, Arne Johnson married Debbie Glatzel while in prison in January 1984.
• 21:59
  Wow.
• 22:00
  And then he was released in'86 And Arnie and Debbie had two kids following his release from prison, and they remained together until she passed away from cancer in 2021.
• 22:12
  Aw, rest in peace to her.
• 22:14
  Yeah.
• 22:15
  I feel like Debbie's a solid person.
• 22:17
  She stood by her man.
• 22:19
  She never faltered in her vision, her beliefs, what she thought happened.
• 22:23
  Yeah, and I think that says a lot.
• 22:24
  Whether this is actually real or not, she thought it was.
• 22:29
  Right.
• 22:29
  And she stood by him.
• 22:31
  Stood by her convictions, yeah.
• 22:32
  Arnie says that he is no longer possessed, but he also says he never had an exorcism.
• 22:37
  He says he just figured out how to handle it now.
• 22:40
  That, that's weird to me, but okay.
• 22:43
  He says he studied the Bible while inside, and he learnt what phrases and prayers were needed to keep away the devil.
• 22:53
  And so once he was released, he was, I guess, reborn or...
• 22:57
  But he found all his answers in the Bible while inside.
• 23:01
  I'm skeptical, but okay.
• 23:02
  Carl goes on to say that after his parents died, he discovered while going through their things that their mother laced all of their food with Sominex in order to keep the family quiet and sleepy and in line.
• 23:16
  Sominex being, like, a sleep aid medication.
• 23:20
  So like NyQuil, kind of?
• 23:22
  I guess NyQuil, Benadryl, Unisom, any of those type things.
• 23:26
  But I guess a raw version of it back then that is no longer utilized.
• 23:31
  No longer utilized because apparently it makes you think you're fucking possessed.
• 23:36
  Yes, right.
• 23:37
  I wonder if they put that in the small print of the label.
• 23:39
  Maybe.
• 23:39
  May cause demonic possession.
• 23:42
  Use at your own risk.
• 23:43
  May cause delusions of demonic possession.
• 23:46
  Crazy.
• 23:48
  So Carl says the side effects of Sominex are known to be hallucinations.
• 23:53
  Now, David denies any of that, and he stands by his truth that he was possessed.
• 23:59
  The family have gone their separate ways and continue to agree to disagree about what really happened back in the 1980s.
• 24:07
  So Tina, what do you think?
• 24:08
  Demon possession, drug-related side effects?
• 24:11
  I think it was a combination Of factors.
• 24:14
  I think that the Sominex was a factor.
• 24:18
  I think that the Warrens were a huge factor.
• 24:22
  There is probably so much to the Warrens that we just don't know.
• 24:27
  We don't know if the Warrens maybe propositioned these people, and that's what started it all, you know?
• 24:32
  We don't know.
• 24:33
  Right.
• 24:34
  So there was some theories that, David was just trying to get out of cleaning the house.
• 24:38
  He was like, I wanna hang out with my other 11-year-old friends.
• 24:41
  Sweeping your dirty ass rental house was not my idea of fun today." Right.
• 24:46
  And that that's where it started with him making it up.
• 24:48
  I don't think necessarily the Warrens sought them out, but I think they latched onto the first little,"Oh, I got pushed over in the bedroom.
• 24:57
  It's creepy." Yeah.
• 24:58
  I think that they were happy to exploit it, no matter at whatever point it was at.
• 25:04
  Right.
• 25:04
  And, you know, maybe something did happen.
• 25:07
  Maybe he had a hallucination because of that medication, or maybe he had an illness.
• 25:11
  And then they somehow found out, and they were like,"Ooh." And like I said, the power of suggestion,"Oh, if he were possessed, this would happen, and this would happen." And that is putting those ideas into a very impressionable 11-year-old's head.
• 25:27
  Right.
• 25:28
  Yeah.
• 25:29
  Um, I mean, with the Sominex, I have my doubts because she was giving it to everybody in her family, but David was the only one having hallucinations, and she wasn't giving it to Arne, but he had hallucinations.
• 25:41
  Well, maybe David was more susceptible, being that he was only 10 or 11 years old at the time.
• 25:48
  Mm-hmm.
• 25:48
  Um, children's bodies certainly are more vulnerable to stuff like that, I think.
• 25:53
  So- Carl was only 15.
• 25:55
  Yeah, but he's, like, reaching adolescence, or he's post-puberty at that point, so maybe that was a factor.
• 26:02
  And what about the fact that Arne didn't live with them and wasn't getting the Sominex?
• 26:05
  We don't know about Arne.
• 26:07
  And in that documentary, he seemed like a nice, legitimate citizen, but also appearances can be deceiving.
• 26:15
  I mean, maybe there was some jealousy there in that love triangle or whatever Maybe he had too much to drink, and things just went too far.
• 26:22
  So you think maybe his claim of demonic possession was because he murdered somebody, and he needed to have an excuse?
• 26:28
  I think it's possible.
• 26:30
  Yeah.
• 26:30
  I do.
• 26:32
  And he was only 19 as well, and like you said, very immature at that age, especially in matters of the heart.
• 26:39
  Like, you dated my girlfriend, and you see her every day at work, and, you know, maybe he just couldn't tolerate it.
• 26:44
  I thought you were gonna say especially in men.
• 26:48
  I didn't say it.
• 26:49
  You said it.
• 26:51
  Uh, and remember it was the Warrens who brought a doctor to check out if David had any medical conditions that could have caused it.
• 26:59
  So I would have felt better with either a second opinion or a doctor that was independent.
• 27:04
  Consider any source, expert, whatever, whether it be a doctor, a priest, somebody writing a book, it doesn't matter.
• 27:13
  Any source that the Warrens bring you is a source that is biased, period, point-blank.
• 27:19
  You cannot trust the Warrens.
• 27:20
  We just know that.
• 27:22
  And with all the money they ripped up from other people, they were probably paying off these people to say what worked out best for them to make more money.
• 27:29
  Oh, yeah.
• 27:29
  They probably had doctors and priests and psychiatrists and whatever else they needed round the clock on their payroll.
• 27:36
  On payroll, yeah.
• 27:37
  And all of those, um, TV interviews that they did about this, it was crazy.
• 27:43
  Yeah, they loved the media attention.
• 27:46
  For sure.
• 27:46
  They were happy to go and interview.
• 27:48
  They made money.
• 27:49
  They got more attention.
• 27:50
  More attention equals more money and vice versa.
• 27:53
  Right.
• 27:54
  So did you wanna say any more about, England?
• 27:56
  Uh, yes, I want to address England immediately.
• 28:00
  Yes, ma'am.
• 28:00
  Go ahead.
• 28:01
  Sorry, guys.
• 28:02
  The tea alarm just went off.
• 28:03
  Be right back.
• 28:05
  So a lot of those, like murders by possession or demonic possession, whatever apparently happened in England where they were able to use possession as an excuse.
• 28:15
  Why do you think that England allowed that?
• 28:19
  Like, are you guys super religious?
• 28:22
  You guys are super Catholic?
• 28:23
  No.
• 28:23
  What, what are you?
• 28:25
  Church of England, which comes from Catholicism- Okay but it's not.
• 28:28
  Henry VIII invented his own religion so that- That's right he could get divorced.
• 28:31
  That's right.
• 28:32
  And it became known as, we call it C of E or Church of England.
• 28:35
  Okay.
• 28:36
  Um, it comes from Catholic, which is what he was originally, but they wouldn't allow him to get divorced and, you know, he needed to have eight wives, so do you think that the Church of England plays a part in that?
• 28:49
  I think it might be more to do with our history- Yeah because we have graves and churches in England that date back centuries before anything you have in America.
• 29:00
  Yeah.
• 29:01
  And so I think just that culture of all of that history around you and seeing graves dated that old and so on just makes everything a little bit more spooky and believable.
• 29:11
  Yeah, I think you're right, and I wanna go to England.
• 29:14
  I'm getting chills right now talking about this, but I wanna go to England and see all the historical spooky castles, and, uh, it's so fascinating to me.
• 29:22
  And if you think about it, any legends that you really hear about here are no more than, you know, a couple of hundred years old, whereas we have legends that are a couple of thousand years old, you know?
• 29:31
  So.
• 29:31
  Yes, very spooky.
• 29:33
  We need to do Jack the Ripper at some point.
• 29:36
  Okay.
• 29:36
  What do you think about Jack the Ripper?
• 29:38
  It's kind of old to me, being from London.
• 29:40
  Right.
• 29:41
  But I do understand the need for it to be.
• 29:44
  It's a need.
• 29:45
  I know.
• 29:46
  Come on.
• 29:46
  I know, and I'm gonna have to do it.
• 29:47
  You, you're gonna have to.
• 29:49
  Come on.
• 29:51
  Okay.
• 29:52
  Challenge accepted.
• 29:53
  Okay, y'all.
• 29:54
  Well, we hope you enjoyed this episode.
• 29:57
  Uh, freaked me right the fuck out.
• 30:01
  I, um, probably won't be able to sleep tonight.
• 30:04
  And next week I have got the Candyman for you, so be on the lookout for that.
• 30:12
  When we recorded that, I didn't know the full story, and I was just, like, gobsmacked as we love to say.
• 30:18
  Yeah.
• 30:19
  I was too when I was researching it.
• 30:21
  I mean, it's, it's one of those things that it's just so evil you can't even believe it.
• 30:25
  And you know that my son and I often discuss these'cause he likes true crime as well, and when I said to him,"We just recorded the Candyman," he knew everything.
• 30:32
  Did he really?
• 30:33
  He- He did.
• 30:35
  Wow.
• 30:35
  He was like,"The Pixy Sticks guy," and I'm like,"Yes." That's him, the Pixy Sticks guy.
• 30:39
  Yes.
• 30:40
  Wow.
• 30:40
  Crazy.
• 30:41
  Okay, y'all.
• 30:42
  Well, look forward to that next week.
• 30:44
  We hope you are enjoying spooky season.
• 30:47
  And until next time, be divas.
• 30:49
  Not deadly.
• 30:51
  Bye.
• 30:52
  Bye.