Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Words That Save Lives: A Negotiator’s Story | Lee Wolahan

Transcript

Words That Save Lives: A Negotiator’s Story | Lee Wolahan · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Apoche production.
0:14
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host,
0:16
Speaker 2: Adam Shand Somewhere right now across Australia, a crisis is unfolding.
0:21
Speaker 2: It may be a siege, hostage drama, domestic violence incident,
0:26
Speaker 2: person experiencing a mental health episode, or someone threatening to
0:30
Speaker 2: take their own life. It may just be someone who's
0:32
Speaker 2: reached the end of their tether and needs to be
0:35
Speaker 2: listened to.
0:36
Speaker 3: When the cops are called to a crisis, the negotiators
0:40
Speaker 3: coordinate the car.
0:42
Speaker 2: In each of these scenarios, a police negotiator will be
0:45
Speaker 2: on the scene trying to move that person in crisis
0:47
Speaker 2: from no to yes, to help them re engage their
0:50
Speaker 2: rational thought process, to de escalate the situation, and to
0:54
Speaker 2: give them another way out when all seems hopeless.
0:58
Speaker 3: In the last twelve months, police negotiators from the Critical
1:01
Speaker 3: Incident Response Team have been called to more than seven
1:04
Speaker 3: hundred jobs.
1:06
Speaker 2: Most of these jobs you will never hear about. Some, sadly,
1:09
Speaker 2: you hear about when negotiations break down or when force
1:13
Speaker 2: is required to ensure public safety. At the Sydney siege
1:17
Speaker 2: in quest today, negotiators described the immense pressure when talks
1:21
Speaker 2: broke down, But the vast majority of these scenes are
1:25
Speaker 2: peacefully resolved and everyone gets to go home because of
1:29
Speaker 2: the skills and the experience of the negotiator.
1:33
Speaker 3: It's a delicate balance of empathy and strategy, proving power
1:37
Speaker 3: lies in peaceful speech.
1:40
Speaker 2: Today, it's my pleasure to speak to one of Australia's
1:42
Speaker 2: most experienced police negotiators, leading Senior Constable Lee Wallahan of
1:47
Speaker 2: Victoria Police. Lee is a specialist and is passing on
1:51
Speaker 2: his skills to rank and file police who are the
1:53
Speaker 2: first responders in these challenging moments. Thanks for chatting today, Lee,
1:59
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me I for sire, it absolute pleasure. Mate.
2:01
Speaker 2: Tell me what makes a good negotiator.
2:03
Speaker 1: Probably the thing that makes negotiator successful is I'll start
2:08
Speaker 1: with one of our students who's now graduated from the
2:10
Speaker 1: most recent course. His name is Jake. Jake is kind,
2:14
Speaker 1: he's professional, he's interesting, he's interested, he's a good communicator.
2:21
Speaker 1: He's a worldly person despite his young age, and he
2:26
Speaker 1: is able to make decisions under immense pressure and make
2:31
Speaker 1: good decisions and back those decisions up with sound reasoning.
2:35
Speaker 1: But it's probably better if I tell you what negotiator
2:37
Speaker 1: is not a negotiator is not a psychologist. They're not
2:41
Speaker 1: a guidance counselor. They're not a marriage counselor. They're not
2:44
Speaker 1: a real estate agent. They're not an employment specialist. And
2:48
Speaker 1: sometimes that's what people think a negotiator needs to be,
2:51
Speaker 1: is someone who can talk that person through their issues
2:53
Speaker 1: and through their problems. But when that person's in crisis,
2:56
Speaker 1: and that person's got leverage and we'll talk about that later,
3:00
Speaker 1: that person doesn't need counseling and psychology because it's not
3:04
Speaker 1: the time. If you were to take a psychologist and
3:06
Speaker 1: bring them to a siege situation, they take one look
3:09
Speaker 1: at the person in crisis and say, this isn't the time.
3:12
Speaker 1: They need a police officer. And what we are is
3:15
Speaker 1: simply police officers with specialized skill set like Jake and
3:19
Speaker 1: the world leading team that am part of. They possess
3:22
Speaker 1: all of those skills in man man anymore.
3:24
Speaker 2: But you've chosen to specialize in this. Over the years,
3:27
Speaker 2: I guess people have gone through this sort of a
3:29
Speaker 2: role and they've gone to other jobs. You've chosen to specialize.
3:32
Speaker 2: Why is that.
3:33
Speaker 1: The first experience I had with a police negotiator, I
3:36
Speaker 1: was a young constable working in Fitzroy. It was two
3:39
Speaker 1: thousand and two. I think petrol was about sixty cents
3:42
Speaker 1: a lead. It was a different time and so we
3:45
Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of the different levels of supervision
3:47
Speaker 1: and support that we do today. And the job that
3:50
Speaker 1: we had was a job in a small flat a
3:53
Speaker 1: young man who was armed with a knife. We got
3:56
Speaker 1: there on scene and without any backup, we went into
3:58
Speaker 1: the apartment and I could hear distress from the other
4:01
Speaker 1: side of the door. I always cautioned my students that
4:04
Speaker 1: you don't rise to the occasion, you fall to the
4:07
Speaker 1: lowest and best level of training that you have, and
4:09
Speaker 1: that's what happened. I tried to kick in the door
4:12
Speaker 1: and my foot went straight through it, and then my
4:15
Speaker 1: partner then over the next minute or so, I had
4:17
Speaker 1: to try and pull my leg out of the door,
4:19
Speaker 1: and so the element of surprise was gone. I went
4:22
Speaker 1: in and saw something and I'll never forget, which was
4:24
Speaker 1: a young male with a knife to his throat. He
4:27
Speaker 1: was naked and he was clearly in distress. And so
4:31
Speaker 1: I fell to the lowest level of training I had,
4:33
Speaker 1: which was I pulled out my weapon. My service pistol
4:36
Speaker 1: was a smith and Western k frame revolver at the time,
4:40
Speaker 1: because in my training, knife equals gone, and I didn't
4:42
Speaker 1: think about the nuance of the situation and what that
4:45
Speaker 1: person might actually be experiencing. I pulled out the revolver,
4:48
Speaker 1: I pointed at him, and I just started shouting. After
4:51
Speaker 1: a while, a tactical team arrived, and then they said
4:54
Speaker 1: the negotiator was coming. And the whole time I just
4:57
Speaker 1: kept shouting the police chawler and dropped the knife, dropped
4:59
Speaker 1: the knife, and that wasn't working clearly. Soon after that,
5:03
Speaker 1: a police negotiator turned up and the attack team we're
5:05
Speaker 1: very respectful of him. They moved to the side. He
5:08
Speaker 1: moved forward and I could hear him in a calm
5:09
Speaker 1: and a slow voice. He said, look at him, he's terrified.
5:13
Speaker 1: And I nodded, and my gun was shaking, and then
5:16
Speaker 1: I felt the calm hand over the top of my
5:18
Speaker 1: revolver and he lowered it and he said, I'm not
5:20
Speaker 1: talking about him, I'm talking about you, mate. It's okay
5:24
Speaker 1: to be scared. This is a scary day. It's not
5:26
Speaker 1: a normal day for him, and it's not a normal
5:28
Speaker 1: day for you. So I want everyone to take a
5:31
Speaker 1: breath and take two steps back. Within ten minutes, he
5:34
Speaker 1: had that person in a different state of mind and
5:37
Speaker 1: the leverage was then easily and respectfully given to that
5:40
Speaker 1: police negotiating And that was a moment in my mind
5:42
Speaker 1: where I said, this is fascinating, this is something that
5:45
Speaker 1: I aspire to. That was the start of my journey
5:48
Speaker 1: towards becoming a police negotiator. But in Victoria we are
5:52
Speaker 1: very different. We're not like other negotiating units. We're embedded
5:55
Speaker 1: in the tactical team and we are where we have
5:57
Speaker 1: all the same skill set, we have the same equipment,
5:59
Speaker 1: and we have the same training. That makes us very
6:01
Speaker 1: different from negotiating's pretty much around the world. Benefit of
6:05
Speaker 1: that is that instead of being on a phone one
6:07
Speaker 1: hundred meters away at a command post, you're front and
6:10
Speaker 1: center making eye contact with the person who has the leverage,
6:13
Speaker 1: whether that's on a ledge or with a person that
6:17
Speaker 1: they've kidnapped, or a hostage situation or even a counter
6:19
Speaker 1: terrorism event. And so because of that, as you and
6:24
Speaker 1: I are sitting opposite each other here, I get to
6:26
Speaker 1: see the blink rate, perspiration, what the hands are doing.
6:30
Speaker 1: Is there any cognitive dissonance, Is there any difference between
6:33
Speaker 1: what I'm seeing and what they're saying, and you get
6:35
Speaker 1: to subconsciously take in that information and process it in
6:39
Speaker 1: real time when you are face to face with someone.
6:41
Speaker 1: And that's one of the big benefits that we have
6:43
Speaker 1: in Victoria is we have negotiators who are part of
6:45
Speaker 1: that tactical team. I'm absolutely thrilled to be part of it.
6:49
Speaker 2: I know you're a disciple of eck car Toll The
6:51
Speaker 2: Power of Now, and he talks about alert stillness being
6:57
Speaker 2: rather than doing being in those moments. How does that
7:00
Speaker 2: plan into these situations when you are so close to
7:02
Speaker 2: someone who may harm themselves, you, somebody else. How do
7:08
Speaker 2: you keep in mind in that alert stillness that you need.
7:12
Speaker 1: I please you ask that question, because my wife asked
7:14
Speaker 1: it to me today. She said, I know the sort
7:16
Speaker 1: of work you do, and I know the calmness that
7:19
Speaker 1: you bring to a chaotic situation. But I just watch
7:22
Speaker 1: you roll up a garden hose and lose your blob.
7:25
Speaker 1: So there is something with you that is different to
7:28
Speaker 1: a lot of people, and I cherish that. And I
7:31
Speaker 1: think most of the negotiated team are a cut from
7:33
Speaker 1: a similar cloth. And we always say to each other,
7:36
Speaker 1: move slowly, be the slowest person in the room, because
7:39
Speaker 1: if you go into a room and you try to
7:41
Speaker 1: exert confidence and confidence and you try and show everyone
7:44
Speaker 1: how big and how important you are, it has the
7:47
Speaker 1: opposite effect because your brain is making ninety thousand plus
7:51
Speaker 1: decisions every day and they're subconscious. And so what we
7:56
Speaker 1: try and do when we get out on scene is
7:58
Speaker 1: we try and move slowly. We speak softly, and that's
8:01
Speaker 1: something that as a father I use with my children.
8:04
Speaker 1: Speak softly, you will bring a calmness to a chaotic situation.
8:08
Speaker 2: Does that work at home?
8:10
Speaker 1: I'm working on it. My father always said to me
8:12
Speaker 1: that if you don't look back at the younger version
8:14
Speaker 1: of yourself and think that you used to be an idiot,
8:17
Speaker 1: then chances are you still are. So I'm working on
8:21
Speaker 1: being a father, I'm working on being a police communicator
8:24
Speaker 1: and a specialist. But I'm always saying to myself and
8:26
Speaker 1: people that I work with, We're always saying we're not
8:28
Speaker 1: good enough. We need to be better, and we need
8:31
Speaker 1: to be learning more, and we need to be evolving.
8:33
Speaker 1: And I think the day you say I've learned it
8:35
Speaker 1: all and seen it all and done it all is
8:37
Speaker 1: probably the time that you're fooling yourself or you need
8:40
Speaker 1: to write encyclopedia.
8:42
Speaker 2: Because this job is a leveler. You can have success
8:46
Speaker 2: one day and the following day can be a horrible
8:47
Speaker 2: failure and you can go away with a terrible memory,
8:51
Speaker 2: a terrible trauma for everyone involved. And it's relentless too.
8:55
Speaker 2: I mean, people have no idea how many jobs the
8:57
Speaker 2: negotiators do. What's your routine schedule of your roster like,
9:02
Speaker 2: so we.
9:02
Speaker 1: Work a day, afternoon, and night shift, and so we
9:05
Speaker 1: have a twenty four hour coverage. We've got a base
9:08
Speaker 1: of eighteen negotiators, which is not many when you consider
9:11
Speaker 1: the size of Victoria. We cover the whole state. There's
9:15
Speaker 1: no regional negotiators, so we don't have negotiators in country spots.
9:18
Speaker 1: It's us. And so when you go to a deployment
9:22
Speaker 1: sometimes that can mean that everyone has to go without
9:24
Speaker 1: so it means you can't go to everything. We have
9:27
Speaker 1: a saying the negotiators sell that you can do anything
9:29
Speaker 1: in a negotiation, but you can't do everything. And it's
9:33
Speaker 1: the same thing with Victoria. We have to say no
9:35
Speaker 1: sometimes to people. We have to say no, you've got this,
9:38
Speaker 1: it's in your wheelhouse. Keep at it. And so to
9:41
Speaker 1: your point, I have had what some would call failures,
9:44
Speaker 1: and part of my evolution as a human being is
9:47
Speaker 1: to learn that the process is what matters, not the outcome.
9:50
Speaker 1: If we're outcome driven, and if we're caring constantly about
9:53
Speaker 1: what the end state of a negotiation is is, we're
9:56
Speaker 1: setting ourself up for a failure. I should say, and
9:59
Speaker 1: I remember, I had a death that happened. Someone either
10:02
Speaker 1: ended their life in front of me, or it was
10:04
Speaker 1: death by MISSI adventure. We still don't know, but that
10:08
Speaker 1: person died and I was the negotiator, talking to him
10:11
Speaker 1: the whole time, and I saw it happen. And when
10:14
Speaker 1: I came home, I was exhausted. I'd done a fourteen
10:17
Speaker 1: hour shift. There's a lot of scrutiny that is attached
10:20
Speaker 1: to this level of policing, and there should be. And
10:23
Speaker 1: so when I had fulfilled all my obligations and the
10:26
Speaker 1: scrutiniers had established that we had acted within the self test,
10:31
Speaker 1: which is scrutiny, ethical, lawful, and fair, then I went
10:34
Speaker 1: home and I was tired, but I was wired. And
10:38
Speaker 1: I was sitting out on the deck with my then
10:40
Speaker 1: seven year old daughter, and she said to me, and
10:42
Speaker 1: I'll never forget it. Mummy said that something bad happened
10:46
Speaker 1: at work today and I said, yeah, it did. And
10:48
Speaker 1: she said, is the man okay? And I said no,
10:50
Speaker 1: he's not. And she said did you talk to his mum?
10:53
Speaker 1: And that I actually had before we started engaging with
10:56
Speaker 1: this person, and I said yeah, and she goes, what
10:59
Speaker 1: did you say to his mother? And I said I
11:01
Speaker 1: told her we'd look after a boy. That's what I
11:04
Speaker 1: said to her. And then she said to me, well,
11:06
Speaker 1: that didn't happen, though I did it. And I said no, no,
11:08
Speaker 1: I didn't. And she said is the mum sad? And
11:11
Speaker 1: I said yeah, yeah she is. She's very sad. And
11:14
Speaker 1: she said are you And I burst into tears and
11:18
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, I am sad. And that for me
11:21
Speaker 1: as part of the process. If you go home after
11:24
Speaker 1: something like that and you don't let that emotion out
11:26
Speaker 1: and you bottle it up or you disguise it with
11:29
Speaker 1: something else, you are kicking that can down the road.
11:33
Speaker 1: And so to speak, on the survivability of being a
11:36
Speaker 1: negotiator for fourteen years, it is that vulnerability, being able
11:40
Speaker 1: to say that I am having a human reaction from
11:44
Speaker 1: something that is personal and it is emotional and there
11:47
Speaker 1: was a sadness attached to it. What is absolutely unacceptable
11:51
Speaker 1: is for me to start blaming myself or taking that
11:54
Speaker 1: person's life as if it is my responsibility, because it's not.
11:57
Speaker 1: And I say that's my students. I say it to
11:59
Speaker 1: the police officers every day that you cannot operate with
12:03
Speaker 1: the fear that that person's life is in your hands,
12:05
Speaker 1: because it isn't. What is in your hands is the process,
12:09
Speaker 1: your training, and the decisions that you make. And so
12:13
Speaker 1: I've learned that by doing more than eight hundred critical
12:16
Speaker 1: incidents in my career, where the process is what we
12:19
Speaker 1: work towards. Yes, that person deserves our best, but we
12:22
Speaker 1: are not at our best if we're operating on fear,
12:25
Speaker 1: if we're operating on obligation, or if we're operating on guilt.
12:28
Speaker 1: Whenever we go and do our communications.
12:30
Speaker 2: And equally, if you do save somebody or it's a
12:34
Speaker 2: positive outcome, the tendency would be to accept the term hero.
12:38
Speaker 2: That's also double ed sword, isn't it absolutely?
12:41
Speaker 1: And I don't subscribe to that at all. I get
12:44
Speaker 1: paid to do a job. I volunteer to do this job,
12:47
Speaker 1: and it comes with consequences and if your ego gets
12:51
Speaker 1: in the way and you start thinking that this is
12:53
Speaker 1: your success, and then that's a folly. Because I work
12:57
Speaker 1: with a world leading team at critical incident response, the
13:00
Speaker 1: men and women there are I'm so proud of them,
13:02
Speaker 1: But what I'm most proud is not the outcome, but
13:04
Speaker 1: the processes that they follow every day, the training that
13:07
Speaker 1: they have, and the professionalism that they conduct themselves with.
13:10
Speaker 2: One of my favorite stories that you've told me in
13:12
Speaker 2: the past occurred on the Bolty Bridge. Was a double
13:16
Speaker 2: negotiation in a sense, I think that story really encapsulates
13:20
Speaker 2: a lot of what you're talking about. You want to
13:22
Speaker 2: take us through that.
13:23
Speaker 1: It was a late night on a Saturday night and
13:25
Speaker 1: we had the call out to go to the Bolty Bridge.
13:28
Speaker 1: Back then, they didn't have the defensive barriers that prevented
13:30
Speaker 1: people from scaling them, and there was a guy sitting
13:33
Speaker 1: on the ledge. We didn't know who he was, which
13:35
Speaker 1: is unusual. Usually we had to do some background checks
13:38
Speaker 1: or we get to establish this person's identity and start
13:41
Speaker 1: to get a feel of our strategy moving into this negotiation.
13:44
Speaker 1: The traffic was still going was quite heavy. We moved
13:47
Speaker 1: into position and approached him. I just want to touch
13:51
Speaker 1: on a leverage first, because I think it's important that
13:53
Speaker 1: people understand our relationship with leverage. Leverage is what's stopping
13:57
Speaker 1: you from doing your job, either taking a person into
14:01
Speaker 1: custody or preventing a suicide, or arresting a person for
14:05
Speaker 1: a crime. If that person has leverage that prevents you
14:08
Speaker 1: from doing that. That's why we get called because they
14:11
Speaker 1: have leverage. If we focus on the leverage, then that
14:16
Speaker 1: person then feels that that leverage holds way more value
14:20
Speaker 1: than they did before. And unfortunately, because we get called
14:23
Speaker 1: because police before us have been unsuccessful. We don't get
14:26
Speaker 1: called by a triple zero. We get called by other
14:28
Speaker 1: police units. So when we get there, oftentimes the police
14:31
Speaker 1: are focusing on the leverage. Drop the knife, come down
14:34
Speaker 1: from the ledge, let that person go, don't hurt anyone.
14:38
Speaker 1: And so unfortunately, what that does is it's kind of
14:40
Speaker 1: like a dog with a tennis ball. If you show
14:43
Speaker 1: that beautiful animal that you want that tennis ball, you
14:46
Speaker 1: know it's over before it's even begun. And so there's
14:49
Speaker 1: a freedom to that that we have in the legs
14:51
Speaker 1: that I would like every police officer to learn about.
14:54
Speaker 1: And a person in Victoria and Australia is if you
14:57
Speaker 1: focus on the leverage, you'll push that person towards it.
15:00
Speaker 1: You can't let the fear of what they might do
15:02
Speaker 1: with that leverage cloud your decision making. So we started
15:06
Speaker 1: engaging with him. I was working with a guy called
15:08
Speaker 1: Ben Fantastic Negotiator, and we were both engaging with this
15:12
Speaker 1: mail and he kept trying to dictate the terms of
15:16
Speaker 1: where we were and weren't able to stand and that's
15:18
Speaker 1: quite common. It's a person who is in a crisis
15:21
Speaker 1: point trying to reach out for some sense of control.
15:25
Speaker 1: Eventually we had to shut down the bolty because buses
15:28
Speaker 1: full of Bucks parties were going past saying jump. And
15:32
Speaker 1: you know, very very harden to hear that kind things.
15:36
Speaker 1: You hear that sort of stuff a lot, and it's disappointing.
15:41
Speaker 1: But if I'm being honest, I had a similar incident
15:43
Speaker 1: on a ledge above a train station and there was
15:47
Speaker 1: hundreds of people just standing watching and one or two
15:50
Speaker 1: people said jump. But when this guy, after hours and
15:53
Speaker 1: hours of negotiation, came down in the cherry Picka, they
15:56
Speaker 1: opened up the doors and the fire it fighters led
15:58
Speaker 1: him out. Everyone heared hundreds and hundreds of people and
16:02
Speaker 1: patted him on the back and clapped him on the back.
16:04
Speaker 1: And so the humanity that I see victorians have, I'm
16:08
Speaker 1: reminded of it every day that more often than not
16:10
Speaker 1: people are kind, and more often than not people say things.
16:14
Speaker 1: And it's like saying something on the internet that it's gone,
16:16
Speaker 1: but you can't take it back. You just said it,
16:19
Speaker 1: and you probably didn't understand the consequences of that. But yeah,
16:23
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff was going on a little bit.
16:26
Speaker 2: But set the scene here because I think I've undersold
16:28
Speaker 2: the atmosphere where he was, what he was doing the moment.
16:32
Speaker 2: It was quite something, and he was laboring under a
16:34
Speaker 2: misapprehension that his life had gone to a place where
16:38
Speaker 2: there was no return from.
16:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there was information that we didn't know at
16:42
Speaker 1: the time which was very significant in relation to what
16:46
Speaker 1: his motivation was. And I'll tell you that at the
16:49
Speaker 1: time when I found it out, But at the time
16:51
Speaker 1: we just thought it was, for want of a better term,
16:54
Speaker 1: someone who was at in crisis and wanted to end
16:57
Speaker 1: their own life. He was standing on the decline slope
17:02
Speaker 1: of the bridge, which just is a drop into probably
17:05
Speaker 1: undred and fifty feet into water, at that height is
17:07
Speaker 1: like concrete. And he was standing on that leaning out
17:12
Speaker 1: with his belt tied around a light post. The tiny
17:15
Speaker 1: piece of leather was the only thing holding him up
17:17
Speaker 1: over that abyss.
17:19
Speaker 2: And the winds blowing, and can feel the bridge moving.
17:22
Speaker 1: And yeah, I didn't realize that, but the bridge does move,
17:24
Speaker 1: and it's meant to move. But it is really disconcerting
17:27
Speaker 1: when that, you know, thousands of tons of concrete and
17:29
Speaker 1: steel moving underneath you. And I thought stopping the traffic
17:33
Speaker 1: would make it less eerie and more safe, but it
17:36
Speaker 1: made it feel even more. You feel alone because we
17:39
Speaker 1: don't want to stimulate someone or over stimulate them, I
17:42
Speaker 1: should say. So it was suddenly now Ben and I
17:45
Speaker 1: alone on the bridge with this guy. And because we
17:47
Speaker 1: had given an assessment, we'd made a decision. This is
17:50
Speaker 1: a negotiation we will take as long as it takes.
17:53
Speaker 1: And there is no opportunity here, nor do we want
17:55
Speaker 1: to put ourselves at risk of grabbing this person. So
17:59
Speaker 1: everyone else moved back, so then we didn't have any backup.
18:02
Speaker 1: He was angry, he was emotional, knowing now what I do.
18:07
Speaker 1: He was antisocial. He started to link out bits of
18:11
Speaker 1: information to us, and we started to enter into the
18:13
Speaker 1: basis of the negotiation where the dialogue happens. And we
18:17
Speaker 1: found out and it was a shock when we did
18:19
Speaker 1: that he had stabbed his girlfriend and thrown her out
18:23
Speaker 1: of a moving vehicle because he thought we knew that information.
18:27
Speaker 1: And the moment he said it, I felt Ben grabbed
18:29
Speaker 1: my arm and let's push back a little bit, because
18:32
Speaker 1: this is now not suicide intervention. This is now someone
18:36
Speaker 1: who was trying to not face up to a crime
18:40
Speaker 1: that has been committed, a significant crime, and so we
18:44
Speaker 1: now found ourselves in a position where he might be armed.
18:47
Speaker 1: He had a knife before he stabbed somebody. This is
18:49
Speaker 1: now a secondary crime scene. This is starting to become
18:52
Speaker 1: beyond our span of control. And I was writing notes
18:56
Speaker 1: that He turned around and said, what are you writing
18:58
Speaker 1: in that day book? And we said, it's just notes.
19:00
Speaker 1: We write notes about everything, mate, and he said, give
19:03
Speaker 1: me that. Give me then. Now. I made a mistake
19:07
Speaker 1: back then, because I would not do that today. And
19:12
Speaker 1: someone might say, well, is a twenty cent book worth
19:15
Speaker 1: someone's life. That's not the way it works, because that's
19:18
Speaker 1: operating under fear, and that's operating where you're afraid of consequences.
19:23
Speaker 1: But he gets to make decisions, and we get to
19:25
Speaker 1: make decisions. And so I made a decision and I
19:30
Speaker 1: gave him the day book. He started writing something in
19:32
Speaker 1: the day book and I only found out later what
19:35
Speaker 1: it was. At the time, I thought it was a
19:37
Speaker 1: suicide note, where I thought, I've made a mistake here.
19:40
Speaker 1: I've given him an opportunity to put his last thoughts
19:43
Speaker 1: onto there. I then started running out of ideas, and
19:47
Speaker 1: that can happen in a negotiation, and that's why we
19:50
Speaker 1: operate in pairs. I looked down at the ledge and
19:53
Speaker 1: I said, oh, you might not kill yourself. You might
19:56
Speaker 1: not die.
19:56
Speaker 2: Volllybridge is not that high.
19:58
Speaker 1: People have sur by falls.
20:00
Speaker 2: Yeah.
20:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, We've had some people that I've even spoken to
20:02
Speaker 1: after the fact who have gone off the Boulty Bridge
20:05
Speaker 1: and survived and been able to tell their story. So
20:07
Speaker 1: I utilized that information and I said, this might put
20:10
Speaker 1: you in a wheelchair, or he might have significant injuries.
20:13
Speaker 1: He might not die. And he looked down and I
20:15
Speaker 1: could see him processing it, and the younger, stupid me thought,
20:19
Speaker 1: while I'm making progress here, and I moved towards him.
20:21
Speaker 1: He said, so, you don't think I'll die? And I said, no,
20:24
Speaker 1: I think he might not. And then as I was
20:27
Speaker 1: coming up to him, he looked like he was moving
20:30
Speaker 1: back to my side, and he did, and then he
20:33
Speaker 1: pulled a knife from his right pocket and then he
20:35
Speaker 1: held it up and said, well, now you're going to
20:36
Speaker 1: have to shoot me, and he started moving towards Ben
20:39
Speaker 1: and I and Ben pulled out his firearm. I pulled
20:41
Speaker 1: out my taser, and we nearly ended up in a
20:44
Speaker 1: position of where we had a police shooting with very
20:46
Speaker 1: little backup on the top of the bolty bridge in
20:49
Speaker 1: the middle of the CBD. So we backed up and
20:52
Speaker 1: very very calmly, because you fall to the lowest level
20:55
Speaker 1: of training that you have, and the level of training
20:57
Speaker 1: that we have at CERT is very good. We were
21:00
Speaker 1: able to then switch into a tactical mode where we
21:04
Speaker 1: got inside we called the Udu loup, and the loop
21:07
Speaker 1: is observe, orientate yourself, decide on what you're going to do,
21:10
Speaker 1: and then act. And so we moved into into a
21:13
Speaker 1: position where we interrupted his udul loop. So he has
21:17
Speaker 1: an ability to observe, orient aside and act, and so
21:19
Speaker 1: we interrupted that by giving him too many things to
21:22
Speaker 1: worry about all at once. He realized that he was
21:25
Speaker 1: beaten in that moment, so he went back to the
21:27
Speaker 1: bridge again and kept the knife in his pocket. And
21:30
Speaker 1: it was at that moment that the strangest thing happened.
21:33
Speaker 1: A vehicle comes up on the other side of the
21:36
Speaker 1: empty road and stops at the top of the apex
21:39
Speaker 1: of the bridge, and a young girl with blonde hair
21:41
Speaker 1: gets out, and I'm looking over, thinking, this can't be serious.
21:45
Speaker 1: What is happening. There is a police blockade down there.
21:48
Speaker 1: She's just driven through. I didn't know. And suddenly she
21:51
Speaker 1: got inside my udeloup. So I looked out, and she
21:56
Speaker 1: gets out of her car and she looked and then
21:58
Speaker 1: I realized when I saw her face, I've seen that
22:00
Speaker 1: face before, that stoic, very vacant stare of someone who
22:05
Speaker 1: was in crisis. And then I went, oh, oh no.
22:08
Speaker 1: And she got up and stood on the opposite side
22:10
Speaker 1: of the bridge and poised in position, ready to jump,
22:14
Speaker 1: And it was just it was totally unrelated. But she
22:17
Speaker 1: saw an opportunity and moved into that position. And I
22:21
Speaker 1: like to think that she saw an opportunity where there
22:23
Speaker 1: was someone already up there trying to negotiate, and maybe
22:25
Speaker 1: that person might be able to help her one of
22:28
Speaker 1: the police sergeants from the city said, oh, can one
22:30
Speaker 1: of you guys just jump across and just jump across
22:32
Speaker 1: in and help her out. Now, the distance is about
22:35
Speaker 1: the distance between you and I at this desk today.
22:37
Speaker 1: It's only about a meter and a bit and I
22:39
Speaker 1: would happily jump that, but not at one hundred and
22:42
Speaker 1: fifty feet off the ground. So we called in some
22:45
Speaker 1: other negotiators and they came in and took over from
22:48
Speaker 1: that situation. But it was bonkers, to say the least,
22:51
Speaker 1: that we've got two of those at the same time
22:53
Speaker 1: in the same place in Victoria. So we went through
22:56
Speaker 1: the process, we went through our training, and we went
22:59
Speaker 1: through a good strategy, which was that almost to allow
23:04
Speaker 1: this person to make his own decisions. How you feel
23:07
Speaker 1: in this moment with whatever's happened with your girlfriend. That's
23:10
Speaker 1: occupying your mind, and that's understandable. But what you're doing
23:14
Speaker 1: with those emotions is not healthy and it's not okay.
23:16
Speaker 1: It's not acceptable. So if you want to throw yourself
23:20
Speaker 1: from this bridge, we are not going to stop you,
23:23
Speaker 1: and that is your decision. And that's a very difficult
23:25
Speaker 1: thing to say to someone because you're giving them permission
23:29
Speaker 1: and I said to him at the time, and I
23:31
Speaker 1: said this three days ago to someone, it is not
23:33
Speaker 1: a crime to end your own life. It is sad
23:36
Speaker 1: and it has loss and has consequences. But saying that
23:41
Speaker 1: to him it almost put a full stop at the
23:43
Speaker 1: end of it, and his behavior changed. And so eventually
23:47
Speaker 1: we went through the process and he surrendered to Ben
23:50
Speaker 1: and I. We took him into custody and he moved
23:53
Speaker 1: on to the rest of his life to face the
23:55
Speaker 1: consequences of that action. But eight hundred and fifty odd
24:00
Speaker 1: jobs like that, you make mistakes and you learn from it.
24:02
Speaker 1: And I remember as he left, I picked up the
24:04
Speaker 1: day book and I opened it up, and instead of
24:07
Speaker 1: a suicide note, it said I'm cold, I'm tired, I'm
24:11
Speaker 1: in a lot of trouble, and I've got to listen
24:13
Speaker 1: to this fuck with talk on and on and on
24:16
Speaker 1: and on. I'm starting to get bored. And so sometimes
24:19
Speaker 1: your hypothesis is right that this is not a suicide
24:22
Speaker 1: atteam to this is someone looking for options. And when
24:26
Speaker 1: your brain is in crisis, and I can talk about
24:28
Speaker 1: brain states all day, but when your brain is in
24:31
Speaker 1: the limbic system, which is where the emotions come from.
24:35
Speaker 1: You don't make good informed decisions, you don't make good
24:38
Speaker 1: informed communications. Almost every bit of your decision making comes
24:42
Speaker 1: from the desire to connect. It's your emotions. And so
24:46
Speaker 1: I've over the years and since that job, and that
24:49
Speaker 1: was more than eight years ago, I've learned how to
24:51
Speaker 1: recognize brain states when I'm working at a negotiation and
24:56
Speaker 1: I'm always trying to learn and test those hypotheses that
24:59
Speaker 1: you get with people.
25:01
Speaker 2: Typically one of the most challenging jobs you find negotiat when.
25:06
Speaker 1: You're dealing with someone who is antisocial. So you're dealing
25:09
Speaker 1: with someone whose brain is online. So when you and
25:12
Speaker 1: I right now are using the core tex part of
25:14
Speaker 1: our brain, So that is the most evolved part of
25:16
Speaker 1: our brain. That's where you find motor skills come from.
25:19
Speaker 1: It's where your ability to communicate, your ability to make
25:23
Speaker 1: informed decisions, that's where that comes from. If we put
25:26
Speaker 1: more and more stress on people, they go into the
25:28
Speaker 1: limbic system, which I talked about, and then even more
25:30
Speaker 1: stress you go into the brain stand which is fire
25:32
Speaker 1: flight and freeze. But if you get someone who's not
25:36
Speaker 1: in crisis, but they've got leverage, so they've got something
25:39
Speaker 1: that can either hurt you or hurt themselves. But they're
25:41
Speaker 1: not doing it because they're emotional. They're doing it because
25:43
Speaker 1: they're looking to extract an opportunity out of the situation.
25:47
Speaker 1: You know, think someone with a hostage or someone who
25:50
Speaker 1: is even saying a terror event. Their brain is online
25:53
Speaker 1: and they're making rational, informed decisions and they're deciding that
25:56
Speaker 1: they can outwit you. That can be the most difficult
25:59
Speaker 1: thing to do. And I'll give you a very quick example.
26:01
Speaker 1: I was at the Commission Flats in the city. There
26:04
Speaker 1: was an aggravated so someone had broken into someone else's flat.
26:08
Speaker 1: They were trashing it up, and I remember when we
26:10
Speaker 1: finally got in there, he had drawn swastikas on the
26:13
Speaker 1: wall and it was a horrible scene. But he was
26:15
Speaker 1: trying to outwit us the entire time. So everything we
26:19
Speaker 1: said he had an answer for. Everything we offered he
26:22
Speaker 1: had a response to. And so he tricked me, and
26:25
Speaker 1: I remember and it nearly cost me my life. He
26:27
Speaker 1: was screaming and yelling, and all of a sudden, he
26:29
Speaker 1: started to whisper. And when someone starts to whisper, your
26:34
Speaker 1: brain is naturally evolved to attached to that frequency because
26:37
Speaker 1: you're hearing something that is either forbidden something that is
26:40
Speaker 1: different from the norm and something you want, you want
26:43
Speaker 1: to pay attention to. And so he started to whisper,
26:45
Speaker 1: and I leaned up against the door and I put
26:48
Speaker 1: my ear right up. And then I heard a battery
26:51
Speaker 1: powered circular saw fire up and he shot it through
26:55
Speaker 1: the door, and it had cut a bit of my hair,
26:57
Speaker 1: and he drove it straight down where my face had
27:00
Speaker 1: been just moments before. So I made a mistake. And
27:03
Speaker 1: I've always found there are people like that that they
27:05
Speaker 1: will goad you into a sense of comfort or I've
27:09
Speaker 1: got something that you want, and then if you get
27:11
Speaker 1: too close, suddenly they might lash out or throw something
27:14
Speaker 1: at you, or in some cases, which just happened to
27:16
Speaker 1: some of our negotiators, they've been shot at. So they're
27:19
Speaker 1: the tricky ones. If I've answered your question at the
27:22
Speaker 1: end of.
27:22
Speaker 2: This story, he's given you the close shave on the
27:24
Speaker 2: the number one to the side of your head. I mean.
27:27
Speaker 1: Well, so, eventually, we have a number of different jobs
27:30
Speaker 1: as negotiators, and that is to negotiate the peaceful surrender
27:34
Speaker 1: of our subject. For the most part, oftentimes we have
27:37
Speaker 1: to provide information and intelligence to our tactical commander or
27:41
Speaker 1: the arrest team who are supporting us in achieving their mission.
27:45
Speaker 1: And so if you believe negotiations have stalled, failed, or
27:48
Speaker 1: you're at an impass, you can then affect things around
27:52
Speaker 1: the stronghold to get that person to re engage. And
27:56
Speaker 1: so what they did was they conducted it's called a
27:58
Speaker 1: breach and hold, and that's where they breached the door,
28:01
Speaker 1: and then we hold with significant options, ready to defend
28:04
Speaker 1: ourselves to see what happens next, and then you try
28:06
Speaker 1: and engage. It was an empty corridor, there was graffiti everywhere,
28:11
Speaker 1: there was stuff all over the floor. We moved with
28:13
Speaker 1: purpose through the stronghold, slow, methodical, and he wasn't in
28:17
Speaker 1: this place at all, gone, completely gone. We were on
28:20
Speaker 1: level eighteen of the Commission Flats and we opened up
28:23
Speaker 1: a window and I remember looking out and I looked
28:27
Speaker 1: right and I could see the eastern suburbs and the
28:29
Speaker 1: Dan Andongs, and then I looked to the left and
28:32
Speaker 1: I could see on about I'm not hitting about an
28:35
Speaker 1: inch of concrete. I could see a person shimming across
28:39
Speaker 1: the wall on the outside of the top of the
28:41
Speaker 1: Commission Flat tower. He was trying to escape and he
28:45
Speaker 1: was in very real danger of falling or death by
28:48
Speaker 1: misadventure at that stage, and so my options then to
28:52
Speaker 1: negotiate with him are almost non existent. He's moving away
28:54
Speaker 1: from me. He's driven and determined, and his brain's are online.
28:58
Speaker 1: He's making you know, Alex Hanold, the free solo climber,
29:02
Speaker 1: he'd make him look silly by compar Harrison. It was
29:05
Speaker 1: pretty phenomenal how he was moving across that tiny piece
29:09
Speaker 1: of masonry. But eventually he moved into what he thought
29:13
Speaker 1: was another flat, but it wasn't. And standing there hiding
29:17
Speaker 1: behind a door was five of the toughest guys that
29:20
Speaker 1: I know waiting for him, and they waited until he
29:23
Speaker 1: got comfortable and then arrested him without any force, which
29:27
Speaker 1: is the outcome we're always going for.
29:29
Speaker 2: Every job is different, isn't it. But I guess the
29:31
Speaker 2: skills overarch all these jobs. And I hear about this
29:35
Speaker 2: seventy thirty. You've got to be listing seventy percent, talking
29:39
Speaker 2: thirty percent. Take us through how that works in practice.
29:43
Speaker 1: We say you have two ears in one mouth, and
29:45
Speaker 1: that's about the ratio. You should be listening twice as
29:47
Speaker 1: much as you speak. And the reason is that you
29:51
Speaker 1: want to invite that person to tell you what the
29:54
Speaker 1: main issue is. And if you're too busy talking you're
29:57
Speaker 1: going to try and solve that problem for them, then
30:00
Speaker 1: problem solving is never going to work because now is
30:02
Speaker 1: not the time. Now is the time for them venting
30:05
Speaker 1: them letting out what the issues is. And if you
30:08
Speaker 1: listen enough, you will find a good appropriate question to
30:12
Speaker 1: put it back to them and ask them what their
30:14
Speaker 1: decision is. And I'll give you an example of my daughter.
30:17
Speaker 1: She was at cross country training and she wanted to
30:20
Speaker 1: go to the car and sit down because it was
30:21
Speaker 1: cold and it was wet and they were having to run.
30:23
Speaker 1: And she goes, I don't want to do this, and
30:25
Speaker 1: I said, and I just listened, and I heard, and
30:27
Speaker 1: I asked a few questions, and I made sure I listened.
30:29
Speaker 1: And I said, what's the best thing about doing cross country?
30:32
Speaker 1: She goes, I like the medals at the end of
30:34
Speaker 1: the year and the party. And I said, okay, well,
30:36
Speaker 1: how do we get that? She says, by doing races?
30:40
Speaker 1: And I said do we get them by winning races?
30:41
Speaker 1: She goes, no, just by doing our best. And I said, okay,
30:44
Speaker 1: now I'm going to give you a choice. You can
30:46
Speaker 1: go to the car, and I'll sit there with you
30:48
Speaker 1: and we'll listen to music and we'll have fun. Or
30:51
Speaker 1: you can choose to go back and you can choose
30:53
Speaker 1: to train, learn and grow and do your best. But
30:56
Speaker 1: it's your decision. What would you like to do? I
30:59
Speaker 1: involved her in the process, and I didn't say you're
31:02
Speaker 1: going to do this, or there's going to be no McDonald's,
31:04
Speaker 1: or you're not going to get that's not going to work.
31:06
Speaker 1: It might work in the short term. But someone once
31:08
Speaker 1: said parenting is making tough decisions now, easy life later,
31:12
Speaker 1: and negotiating is the same thing. And so we make
31:15
Speaker 1: tough decisions as soon as we start talking to people
31:18
Speaker 1: and we listen, but we always give them an option.
31:21
Speaker 1: What is your decision, what would you like to do?
31:23
Speaker 1: The last thing we do is stand there and threaten people.
31:25
Speaker 1: If you don't do this, there's going to be these consequences,
31:28
Speaker 1: and there are real consequences, but we don't lay it
31:30
Speaker 1: out like a scolding parent. You have to involve that
31:33
Speaker 1: person in the process, and that's what we try and do.
31:37
Speaker 1: I was asked recently where do kids act up the
31:40
Speaker 1: most in the supermarket? And it's at the register, right.
31:44
Speaker 2: Because it's designed to have always chocolates and lollies and
31:47
Speaker 2: toys position there to drive the mad and then they
31:50
Speaker 2: drive their parents.
31:50
Speaker 1: Man, that's right, But there is a psychological solution to everything,
31:54
Speaker 1: and there is a practical solution. And the practical solution
31:56
Speaker 1: is to give your kid that lollipop or the magazine
31:59
Speaker 1: with a toy on the front. And so what I
32:02
Speaker 1: started doing with my children was as we shopped, I
32:05
Speaker 1: have said, you know, you go pick three pieces of fruit,
32:08
Speaker 1: because I have a hypothesis that kids act up at
32:10
Speaker 1: the supermarket at the register, not just because the actions
32:14
Speaker 1: of the supermarkets, but because they see you out there
32:17
Speaker 1: making decisions, putting things in the shopping trolley. They see
32:20
Speaker 1: you making decisions and choosing things, and that is ultimately
32:24
Speaker 1: very exciting for a young growing mind. And they know
32:28
Speaker 1: that that register, if you look at it like it's
32:30
Speaker 1: a gated system, it's the last part of the gate
32:33
Speaker 1: where you get to make a decision, and that's what
32:35
Speaker 1: all the stuff they want is. So what I started
32:38
Speaker 1: doing was I noticed that if I involved them in
32:40
Speaker 1: the process, by the time it got to the register,
32:42
Speaker 1: they might ask once, but there was no screaming and
32:45
Speaker 1: dropping of the toys or anything like that.
32:47
Speaker 2: Was police, drop the toy.
32:49
Speaker 1: Yeah that's right, Yeah, yeah, get down off the couch.
32:52
Speaker 1: And so I applied that to my policing as a negotiator.
32:57
Speaker 1: Is I involved that person in the process instead of
33:00
Speaker 1: just giving them ultimatums. You're not allowed this, you're not
33:02
Speaker 1: allowed that. That's not going to happen. You're going to
33:04
Speaker 1: do what I say now is the time we're at
33:07
Speaker 1: the end of the register or I need you to
33:08
Speaker 1: get into the divisional van. No. I include them in
33:12
Speaker 1: the process, and it might seem like it will take longer,
33:16
Speaker 1: but it's difficult decisions at the beginning and an easy
33:19
Speaker 1: life later. And that's what we do at a siege situation.
33:22
Speaker 1: Is the first thing I say to anybody is has
33:24
Speaker 1: anyone explained to you exactly why I'm here? And the
33:27
Speaker 1: answer is usually no, Okay, Well let me explain that
33:30
Speaker 1: to you. And if you've got any questions, you ask
33:32
Speaker 1: them please, because I don't want them to be a misunderstanding.
33:35
Speaker 1: And so you know, we build up that sense of
33:38
Speaker 1: trust and it's trust and it's rapport and you don't
33:42
Speaker 1: always need one or the other. Remember, you can do
33:44
Speaker 1: anything in a negotiation which you can't do everything. People
33:48
Speaker 1: always think, oh, I've got one of my coppers talking
33:50
Speaker 1: to this guy and they've got great rapport. That's good,
33:54
Speaker 1: But you've been there for four hours. Is this now
33:57
Speaker 1: a successful negotiation? And why have you called the negotiator capability?
34:01
Speaker 1: We might then have to come up and okay, let's
34:03
Speaker 1: put report to the side. Let's focus on trust because
34:06
Speaker 1: at the moment, he's enjoying rapport and he's liking the
34:09
Speaker 1: control that that brings him. And yes, he might like
34:12
Speaker 1: that detective or seeing you comfortable, but we have a
34:15
Speaker 1: job to do and we have people that we serve
34:17
Speaker 1: in Victoria, and so I've noticed people are fascinated about negotiations,
34:23
Speaker 1: but a lot of people misunderstand it what it actually is.
34:27
Speaker 1: And sometimes that means we don't make friends at jobs
34:30
Speaker 1: because you're tapping someone on the shoulder who's working their
34:33
Speaker 1: butt off and saying sorry, we need to take over now.
34:37
Speaker 1: We're not there to make friends. But you talk to
34:40
Speaker 1: those people afterwards and you try and smooth things over.
34:43
Speaker 2: I've got the greatest respect for people who are on
34:45
Speaker 2: the divisional van. I think seventy five percent of their
34:47
Speaker 2: jobs and their domestic violence related Yes, they're going into
34:50
Speaker 2: scenes where they're telling people older than them how to
34:54
Speaker 2: solve problems in their relationships and so forth, and a
34:56
Speaker 2: lot of your work does come out of those situations.
34:59
Speaker 2: You're also skilling the frontline officers in those principles, but
35:04
Speaker 2: at least when they cross the threshold, they have some
35:08
Speaker 2: sense of what to do. What do you try to
35:10
Speaker 2: impart to them.
35:11
Speaker 1: So one of the biggest things I try and say
35:14
Speaker 1: with any policing is you need to justify your decision making.
35:19
Speaker 1: And we have a thing called the tactical options model,
35:22
Speaker 1: and there's all sorts of things in the tactical options
35:24
Speaker 1: model that most people would be familiar with, but they're
35:26
Speaker 1: things that we can use in our skill set to
35:30
Speaker 1: respond to people. And one of them that I think
35:33
Speaker 1: is criminally undersold is presence. I do a lot of
35:38
Speaker 1: study and I read a lot of books. And there
35:40
Speaker 1: was a study in New York that they had done
35:42
Speaker 1: based on the serial killer Ted Bundy. What they had found.
35:46
Speaker 1: When he was finally convicted, he spoke with psychologists and
35:51
Speaker 1: a lot of them wanted to know what made him
35:53
Speaker 1: the villain that he was. But the psychologists that went
35:56
Speaker 1: to the front of the queue were the ones who
35:58
Speaker 1: wanted to know how did he choose his victims, what
36:00
Speaker 1: did victims selection look like? And so when they interviewed him,
36:04
Speaker 1: he said, well, it's a whole bunch of things. It
36:07
Speaker 1: was their gait, it was the way they moved. They
36:09
Speaker 1: looked like a fish out of water. They looked like
36:11
Speaker 1: they didn't belong, like they would be missed. But it
36:14
Speaker 1: was hundreds of different things that when I put it
36:17
Speaker 1: all together in my mind, I had a red button
36:18
Speaker 1: and I just hit that red button and said, that's
36:20
Speaker 1: my victim. But that's just a hypothesis, right, and so
36:24
Speaker 1: you've got to test it. So what they did was
36:26
Speaker 1: they drove around in a van and they filmed random
36:28
Speaker 1: people just for moments walking down the street. They showed
36:32
Speaker 1: those footage to criminals and people with a criminal history
36:36
Speaker 1: and gave them a red button and said you just
36:39
Speaker 1: all you have to do is watch, and when you
36:40
Speaker 1: see someone that you were determined to be your victim,
36:43
Speaker 1: you hit that red button. When they collated all the
36:46
Speaker 1: red button hits, there was men, women, children, police officers, teachers,
36:51
Speaker 1: but they all shared the same qualities, and those qualities
36:54
Speaker 1: were they looked like there was a chaos in their movement,
36:58
Speaker 1: like they didn't belong, like they wouldn't be missed, like
37:00
Speaker 1: they were frustrated, like they were flustered, looking at their watch,
37:04
Speaker 1: walking the wrong direct, turning back, making second guessing themselves.
37:09
Speaker 1: And so what I learned from that is what's the
37:11
Speaker 1: opposite of that look like? And how can we get
37:14
Speaker 1: police officers or anyone listening to this to use those
37:18
Speaker 1: principles so that you don't become a victim. And so
37:21
Speaker 1: whenever I'm teaching our students and with our negotiation team,
37:26
Speaker 1: the work starts long before you get out of that
37:29
Speaker 1: car at the incident. The work starts in your planning,
37:33
Speaker 1: The work starts in your presence, The work starts in
37:36
Speaker 1: your body language. Be the slowest person in the room,
37:40
Speaker 1: not the fastest. Don't command attention, don't command respect, Earn
37:46
Speaker 1: it and it will come freely if you're confident. And
37:50
Speaker 1: if you're confident, and there's a difference between confidence and bravado.
37:54
Speaker 1: And I find that if I was being honest about
37:57
Speaker 1: myself as a young police officer, I was chopped full
37:59
Speaker 1: of bravado. Because you graduate and you get this uniform
38:02
Speaker 1: and you do the marching out, and it's a phenomenal
38:04
Speaker 1: experience and I wouldn't change it for anything in the world.
38:08
Speaker 1: But the young, stupid me was full of bravado. You
38:11
Speaker 1: will do what I say because the law is there,
38:13
Speaker 1: and I work for that institution and I respect it,
38:16
Speaker 1: and so should you. Life doesn't work that way, and
38:19
Speaker 1: people are complex and they're interesting and they're very different.
38:23
Speaker 1: And if you walk into a room and you demand
38:25
Speaker 1: people respect you, it's not going to work very well.
38:28
Speaker 1: And so what I try to teach people is is
38:32
Speaker 1: like you would have done today. You did preparation, and
38:35
Speaker 1: you're very good. I know your history, Adam, and you're
38:38
Speaker 1: very good at and researching and building relationships that doesn't
38:43
Speaker 1: happen overnight. There's a funny story about I think it
38:46
Speaker 1: was Pablo Picasso. He used to sit in a cafe
38:51
Speaker 1: and do sketches for people for money. And there was
38:54
Speaker 1: a woman lined up and she gave him a you
38:55
Speaker 1: know at the time, a large sum of money, and
38:57
Speaker 1: he did this thing and a minute and a half
39:00
Speaker 1: and gave it to her. And she said, that took
39:02
Speaker 1: you a minute and a half, and he said, no,
39:04
Speaker 1: it didn't matter. It took me my whole life. And
39:07
Speaker 1: it's kind of like the same thing with negotiating it.
39:10
Speaker 1: We will go to a job and we'll deal with
39:12
Speaker 1: someone and they will go We did all the hard work,
39:16
Speaker 1: we talked for five hours and you just turned up
39:18
Speaker 1: and in three minutes, you guys solved it. And it
39:21
Speaker 1: didn't come in three minutes, it happened. It took me
39:23
Speaker 1: fourteen years of negotiation. It took me twenty five years
39:26
Speaker 1: of being a police officer. And so I wish mate
39:30
Speaker 1: that I had this fast forward button to give people
39:34
Speaker 1: life experience and the ability to prepare. But they can
39:39
Speaker 1: certainly do it faster than I did.
39:42
Speaker 2: The negotiator is part of a technical hierarchy of options.
39:46
Speaker 2: Eventually you have to step aside and let the next
39:50
Speaker 2: option take place, which may be forced. Yes, how do
39:53
Speaker 2: you know when you're losing the battle, but the negotiation
39:58
Speaker 2: is over.
40:00
Speaker 1: There's an old saying that when someone tells you who
40:02
Speaker 1: they are, believe them the first time. It's not always
40:06
Speaker 1: the case. When you get someone who's scared, who's frightened,
40:09
Speaker 1: who's emotional, whose brain is offline, and get away from here,
40:13
Speaker 1: or I'll do this aba and see. After a bit
40:15
Speaker 1: of experience, it's quite easy to spot someone who's just
40:18
Speaker 1: lashing out of the world because they're stalling for time.
40:21
Speaker 1: But if you get someone who says to me, I
40:24
Speaker 1: will never ever listen to a thing you say or
40:28
Speaker 1: do what you want, and then they go ahead and
40:30
Speaker 1: continue to prove it. You can trial and build all
40:34
Speaker 1: the trust and report you want. But if that person
40:36
Speaker 1: is highly motivated with the desire to foil your plans
40:42
Speaker 1: for one of a better word. And I wasn't at
40:44
Speaker 1: these jobs, but you take, like Binson Laguancio, those sorts
40:47
Speaker 1: of characters very intent on what happened, then well, you
40:53
Speaker 1: know you're testing me here. But we had multiple day
40:56
Speaker 1: sieges with both of those characters. One of them men
40:59
Speaker 1: did in a fatality with the so OG, and then
41:02
Speaker 1: another one ended up with options used then and arrest
41:05
Speaker 1: by the SOG being made. But you're dealing with someone
41:08
Speaker 1: who gets given all the time in the world, but
41:11
Speaker 1: instead of breaking down what their reason for being in
41:16
Speaker 1: that situation is and dealing with the emotion, they instead
41:19
Speaker 1: increase their leverage and they increase their desire to take
41:22
Speaker 1: on police in an armed confrontation. And it's not ideal,
41:26
Speaker 1: but that's why we have specialist teams like the cur team,
41:29
Speaker 1: and that's why we have the sogs, is to take
41:32
Speaker 1: that seriously and take the fight to that person who's
41:34
Speaker 1: ultimately as anti social and violent as they come. And
41:38
Speaker 1: there are those people in our community. They're rare, but
41:42
Speaker 1: we need to have a capability to answer that force
41:45
Speaker 1: with force.
41:46
Speaker 2: We also see in the movies negotiators are talking to
41:49
Speaker 2: a criminal, someone in a siege or something, and the
41:52
Speaker 2: subject will say, get my wife down here, I want
41:54
Speaker 2: to talk to my wife, or someone else's bring the
41:57
Speaker 2: girlfriend in or the friend in. Does that ever happen?
42:00
Speaker 2: Do you ever addicate your role like that?
42:02
Speaker 1: So the answer to the first part, yes, it happens
42:05
Speaker 1: all the time. We get I want this, I want this,
42:07
Speaker 1: give me this. I've had. I want a seven four
42:10
Speaker 1: seven laden with fuel, ready to take me to the
42:12
Speaker 1: Cayman Islands, to a non extradition country where I'm going
42:15
Speaker 1: to live out my days on a marijuana plantation. I've
42:18
Speaker 1: had all that. Ultimately, what you need to do is
42:21
Speaker 1: throw those demands we call them or once through a
42:25
Speaker 1: prison in your mind and go what do they really need?
42:29
Speaker 1: And so, like my daughter are picking up the magazine
42:32
Speaker 1: at the front of Coal's she doesn't want that little
42:35
Speaker 1: toy in the magazine. She wants to make decisions and
42:37
Speaker 1: put things in the trolley and watch them and scan
42:39
Speaker 1: them and be part of the process. What she needs
42:42
Speaker 1: is to feel heard and feel instead of me just
42:45
Speaker 1: you sit there and be quiet and we'll get this done.
42:48
Speaker 1: But if you involve the person in the process, the
42:51
Speaker 1: once go away quite quickly. And so I had someone
42:54
Speaker 1: very recently. He was on the outside of a building
42:56
Speaker 1: and you know, like the lethal weapon on the right
42:59
Speaker 1: on the ledge. I opened up the door of the
43:02
Speaker 1: room so I could talk to him, and he said,
43:04
Speaker 1: close that door, I'll jump. So that's what he wants.
43:06
Speaker 1: Close the door, I'll jump. And he wanted the AFP.
43:09
Speaker 1: Go get the AFP. And I said, okay, you can jump.
43:13
Speaker 1: I'm not going to stop you. I don't have any
43:15
Speaker 1: safety equipment and that would be that would be very reckless.
43:18
Speaker 1: But you can jump. Well, then get the AFP. He said.
43:21
Speaker 1: I said, oh, look, they don't have authority or jurisdiction here,
43:24
Speaker 1: it's me. And he started counting up, not down, started
43:28
Speaker 1: counting up. So I don't even know where he's going
43:30
Speaker 1: to with this one. And he did the old fake
43:34
Speaker 1: You know, I'm going to jump now unless you do
43:35
Speaker 1: what I want. And I just stood there and held
43:37
Speaker 1: my ground, and a younger me wouldn't have done that.
43:40
Speaker 1: And I said, well, that's okay, mate, you can, but
43:42
Speaker 1: I just need to let you know the boundaries. You're
43:44
Speaker 1: allowed to make decisions out there, and there are consequences
43:46
Speaker 1: for that, but I'm allowed to make decisions in here too,
43:49
Speaker 1: And I'm deciding that you need help. You're in crisis.
43:52
Speaker 1: And he goes, we'll bring my mom down here, and
43:55
Speaker 1: I said, what would you say to her if she
43:57
Speaker 1: was here? And his voice broke and he started talking,
44:01
Speaker 1: and then I realized he doesn't need his mom down here.
44:04
Speaker 1: He wants his mommy down here, but he doesn't need it.
44:06
Speaker 1: What he needs is a sense of support. And he
44:08
Speaker 1: goes back to the one that he trusts the most,
44:10
Speaker 1: which is his mother. And I said, I can't bring
44:13
Speaker 1: your monmy down here, mate. He goes, do it or
44:14
Speaker 1: I'll jump, and I said, well, I don't think it's ethical,
44:18
Speaker 1: fair or lawful, nor would withstand any scrutiny if I
44:23
Speaker 1: was to bring her here and see you hurting the
44:25
Speaker 1: way you are today. So I'm going to have to
44:27
Speaker 1: say no to that. Main, and that's going to be
44:29
Speaker 1: something that I'm not going to move on. So I apologize,
44:31
Speaker 1: but that's my decision, and you're free to make decisions
44:34
Speaker 1: you want to out there. And within a very short
44:36
Speaker 1: period of time he moved on from it because I've
44:40
Speaker 1: given him what he needed, which is a sense of control.
44:42
Speaker 1: You can control things out there, and you are in control,
44:46
Speaker 1: but so am I, and I'm here to support you.
44:49
Speaker 1: So I guess to shortcut the answer. Instead of focusing
44:53
Speaker 1: on what people want, you focus on what they need.
44:56
Speaker 1: And most people, most human beings, need a sense of
45:00
Speaker 1: control in their lives, how they're treated, how they make decisions,
45:02
Speaker 1: and they need to feel supported when they do that,
45:05
Speaker 1: and they need to feel supported in how they feel
45:07
Speaker 1: and the complex emotions that are going on in their minds.
45:10
Speaker 1: So I give people a sense of decision making. It's
45:12
Speaker 1: your decision. What would you like to do? These are
45:14
Speaker 1: your options, and I let them know that I'm not
45:17
Speaker 1: going to leave their side. And for the better part,
45:20
Speaker 1: it's infinitely better than me trying to run around dancing
45:24
Speaker 1: to the beat of their drum like a good parent.
45:27
Speaker 2: In the way, isn't I reckon? There's a lot of
45:29
Speaker 2: transferable skills here. But yeah, eight hundred plus negotiations over
45:35
Speaker 2: fourteen years, so many lives intersected at critical moments. Do
45:41
Speaker 2: you wonder what happens to the people that you negotiate
45:43
Speaker 2: with once the siege or the moment is over.
45:47
Speaker 1: There's a few people that I think about from time
45:49
Speaker 1: to time, and I allow myself a certain amount, but
45:55
Speaker 1: I have to draw the line somewhere because whilst the
45:58
Speaker 1: people are in sieges, the people who have been kidnapped,
46:02
Speaker 1: the people who are a victim of hostage or that
46:04
Speaker 1: are the hostage take. Yes, they deserve our very best
46:07
Speaker 1: at the negotiation, but we need to reserve our absolute
46:10
Speaker 1: best for the loved ones that we have at home.
46:13
Speaker 1: And so, yes, there are a few people that I
46:15
Speaker 1: allow myself time to think about. But for the most part,
46:19
Speaker 1: when that person surrenders to us and we operate in
46:22
Speaker 1: the team and in pairs at the very minimum, but
46:25
Speaker 1: usually there's two or three of us, we encourage each
46:28
Speaker 1: other to get out of dodge and go back to
46:31
Speaker 1: the office, rehabilitate ourselves, reset and get ready to go
46:34
Speaker 1: to the next one. Because that's eight hundred complex, stressful
46:39
Speaker 1: situations that I can't have bouncing around in my head
46:42
Speaker 1: because I'm just not going to be effective. And so
46:46
Speaker 1: that's why I say, you don't need to be a psychologist,
46:50
Speaker 1: you don't need to be a social worker, because you
46:54
Speaker 1: need to be a police officer. And if you're asking
46:56
Speaker 1: police officers to be social workers, I think that's unfair.
47:00
Speaker 1: You know, the mental health system is so complex. We
47:03
Speaker 1: need good police officers operate within their bounds to get
47:07
Speaker 1: a successful outcome and then pass that person on to
47:10
Speaker 1: the next phase of the Victorian system that may help them.
47:14
Speaker 2: This has really become a specialist job and in the
47:16
Speaker 2: past people used to cycle through this job. As I
47:18
Speaker 2: understand it from other roles. You've chosen to stay in it,
47:22
Speaker 2: and you're also giving back a lot to the next
47:25
Speaker 2: generation of officers in the divvans and so forth. How
47:28
Speaker 2: long can you keep doing this that that's a lot
47:30
Speaker 2: of stress, a lot of pressure, and a lot of
47:33
Speaker 2: mental discipline required, not to think about particularly the failures
47:37
Speaker 2: where you couldn't save somebody, where you couldn't get a
47:39
Speaker 2: positive outcome.
47:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with you. We have the most senior
47:44
Speaker 1: negotiator cadre probably in the world in Victoria, and that
47:48
Speaker 1: speaks of two things I believe. Number one, we have
47:51
Speaker 1: a good set of systems in place that encourage retention
47:54
Speaker 1: of our members. And number two, and this is I
47:57
Speaker 1: think critical, is we have a really good culture within
48:00
Speaker 1: the Negotiator Unit. It's an office within an office within
48:03
Speaker 1: an office. Okay, so we're in a tactical team. We've
48:07
Speaker 1: got all the different elements there, the critical Incident response team,
48:10
Speaker 1: and then in the corner is us and we've got
48:12
Speaker 1: our little room. We've got you know, the usual stuff
48:14
Speaker 1: you see on a police station, the photoshop faces on
48:18
Speaker 1: memes and given each other shit. But what I love
48:20
Speaker 1: about it is when we were forming the unit, my
48:24
Speaker 1: friend John Harley, who's my boss, I said, how do
48:27
Speaker 1: we know if we're going to be successful? And he
48:29
Speaker 1: says about what? And I said, our culture. How do
48:31
Speaker 1: we know if it's good culture? And he goes, It's easy.
48:34
Speaker 1: People will want to come and hang out with us,
48:35
Speaker 1: that's it. They want to hear us, they want to
48:37
Speaker 1: talk to us. And if we've done our job well
48:39
Speaker 1: and if we've got a good culture, people will come
48:41
Speaker 1: to us. And that's what we've created. And so I
48:45
Speaker 1: have incredibly fond relationships with detectives, with a psychological unit
48:51
Speaker 1: from Victoria Police. We had a psychologist, one of the
48:55
Speaker 1: best in Australia, Nicole, who was with us. She's got
48:58
Speaker 1: a lot on her plate of all her work for
49:00
Speaker 1: Victoria Police and she came and spent eight months with
49:03
Speaker 1: us and we just were like sponges learning from her.
49:06
Speaker 1: The SOG will come and spend time with us, and
49:09
Speaker 1: that didn't always happen, and it happened because we have
49:12
Speaker 1: a good culture and we have a meritocracy. If you
49:16
Speaker 1: are the best, if you are like Jake at the
49:19
Speaker 1: start and everyone else that I work with, they are
49:21
Speaker 1: the best and they are so good at their jobs.
49:23
Speaker 1: And I think we've created that, not by accident but
49:27
Speaker 1: by design.
49:28
Speaker 2: I think also you mentioned at the beginning of this
49:31
Speaker 2: one of the best debris you have is cutting yourself
49:34
Speaker 2: off from the day's work and talking to your daughter
49:36
Speaker 2: or your wife.
49:38
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and it's important that if I drag this stuff
49:42
Speaker 1: home with me, that's not healthy. But there is enough
49:45
Speaker 1: that I can give of the work that I do
49:49
Speaker 1: to let them know when I'm struggling, So let them
49:51
Speaker 1: know what I'm being vulnerable because in the last ten years,
49:54
Speaker 1: particularly and especially post COVID, we may have misunderstood stress,
50:01
Speaker 1: and so what I mean by that, And I've got
50:02
Speaker 1: to tread carefully here because everyone's experience is unique. But
50:07
Speaker 1: stress is a force just like heat is. And so
50:10
Speaker 1: heat can cook your food, it can make you warm,
50:13
Speaker 1: it can also burn you. And we get stress, and
50:17
Speaker 1: we get a stress response from a critical incident. When
50:19
Speaker 1: we get an adrenaline, we're getting cortisol, the stress hormone
50:22
Speaker 1: in her brain. It is a stressful experience, and we
50:25
Speaker 1: get a stress response, noise sensitivity, forgetful memory, the shaking
50:30
Speaker 1: of the hands, the tremors, that's a normal human reaction,
50:33
Speaker 1: and we need to know that that's just our body
50:36
Speaker 1: healing from what happened. And so I freely will show
50:41
Speaker 1: emotion when I'm talking about jobs, because that's a healthy
50:43
Speaker 1: human reaction that I should feel something and to light
50:47
Speaker 1: it out. When I think about stress, it's like you
50:49
Speaker 1: injure your knee. People want to chuck ice packs on
50:52
Speaker 1: it and get anti inflammatories. That sells rushing to the
50:55
Speaker 1: area trying to heal your body. And we're very quick
50:58
Speaker 1: to throw things and diagnoses at it instead of letting
51:02
Speaker 1: it take its natural course. And so I encourage a
51:04
Speaker 1: lot of the police that I deal with. To understand
51:07
Speaker 1: that this is a bonker's job. You will experience more
51:10
Speaker 1: in the first year of being a police officer than
51:12
Speaker 1: most people will in their entire lifetime. And I don't
51:15
Speaker 1: think that, but I don't think there's any other career
51:18
Speaker 1: that can give you that. And you are seeing victorians
51:21
Speaker 1: at the worst day of their lives and you get
51:23
Speaker 1: to help them, and so understand that stress responses happen.
51:28
Speaker 1: They happen for a reason and for the most part,
51:31
Speaker 1: it's probably a good thing that they do. So with me,
51:35
Speaker 1: I don't weaponize my stress response. I embrace it. I
51:38
Speaker 1: learn how to control it, like you know, I like
51:41
Speaker 1: I do combat breathing. I do some sense of mindfulness
51:45
Speaker 1: unless that garden hoset kinks up just the wrong way
51:48
Speaker 1: and then I lose my blood.
51:49
Speaker 2: Mate. But well, you've got a full head of hair,
51:52
Speaker 2: a lot of it's great, but clearly clearly doing something right. Listen,
51:56
Speaker 2: thank you so much for your service. And I think
51:58
Speaker 2: it's an amazing job you do because you think of
52:01
Speaker 2: how many situations before this capability became developed, things ended
52:06
Speaker 2: in loss of life, injury, misery and tragedy. When you
52:09
Speaker 2: can say, of those eight hundred jobs, the majority, I
52:11
Speaker 2: would say, you've affected a peaceful outcome.
52:15
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think our job as negotiators is to assist
52:18
Speaker 1: the mission, and the mission usually almost always is the
52:22
Speaker 1: safe resolution of the incident. And I am a very
52:26
Speaker 1: small cog in a wonderful team of negotiators. And I
52:30
Speaker 1: couldn't be more proud, adam of the work that we
52:32
Speaker 1: do that especially the support that we get from our
52:35
Speaker 1: command because we are There's less negotiators in this country
52:38
Speaker 1: than there are professional football players or car races. It's scarce.
52:42
Speaker 1: It's rare. And my dad said to me, and I'll
52:46
Speaker 1: leave you with this that he said, no matter what
52:48
Speaker 1: you do, because I'm an immigrant, I wasn't born in
52:51
Speaker 1: this country and we moved here from Ireland, and my
52:54
Speaker 1: mum and dad said, no matter what you do, serve
52:56
Speaker 1: the community that has been so kind to us. But
53:00
Speaker 1: don't live a boring life. It's not about money, it's
53:03
Speaker 1: not about wins and successes. It's don't live a boring life.
53:08
Speaker 1: And I can if I if I retired tomorrow, I
53:12
Speaker 1: would be happy with everything that I've done. It's been
53:16
Speaker 1: it's been exciting. My career has been interesting, violent, sad, thrilling,
53:24
Speaker 1: but it has not been boring.
53:25
Speaker 2: And you're about to start another shift and you have
53:27
Speaker 2: no idea what's coming, no idea at all.
53:31
Speaker 1: I tell you what, mate, I'm excited for what's coming.
53:34
Speaker 1: Because the day you don't feel excitement is it's time
53:37
Speaker 1: to stop and do something else. Because I love what
53:40
Speaker 1: we do, I love the team I work with, and
53:42
Speaker 1: I'm very proud to be a police officer, and especially
53:47
Speaker 1: I'm very proud to be a police negotiator with Victory Police.
53:53
Speaker 2: That was leading senior constab believe while I hand on
53:55
Speaker 2: his job as a police negotiator, he sees people at
53:58
Speaker 2: their very worst moments and affects a positive outcome. I'd
54:03
Speaker 2: like to see Lee's face if I was ever in
54:05
Speaker 2: that situation. We all get to those moments. Look after
54:09
Speaker 2: each other. It's really important. But if you do get
54:11
Speaker 2: to that moment, there is resources out there. Thank you
54:13
Speaker 2: so much for listening today. If you've got stories for us,
54:16
Speaker 2: actually you should call crime stoppers first. If you've got
54:19
Speaker 2: a case, call crimestopers first, one in under a triple three,
54:21
Speaker 2: triple zero. But you can also give me an email.
54:24
Speaker 2: Adam Shanner, writer at gmail dot com. This has been
54:27
Speaker 2: Real Crime with Adam Shann. Thank you for listening.
54:38
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story.
54:41
Speaker 2: Independent storytelling that shapes the world is what podshape really
54:44
Speaker 2: cares about. Right now, There's thousands of people listening to
54:47
Speaker 2: this show and our other True Crimes, and they're completely engaged.
54:51
Speaker 1: More than ten million Australians listen to podcasts each week.
54:55
Speaker 2: If you've ever thought about advertising your business in a podcast,
54:58
Speaker 2: there's a link to reach out in the show notes,
55:00
Speaker 2: or head to podshape dot com to book a free call.