Latest / Whisky Stories Podcast / Paul John Distillery: The Story of India’s Single Malt

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Paul John Distillery: The Story of India’s Single Malt · Whisky Stories Podcast

0:00
We can do the Christmas. Edition.
0:01
Yes, Christmas edition of the lovely Yeah, it's 5:00
0:05
somewhere. Somewhere New Zealand.
0:08
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Here's to our friends in New
0:10
Zealand. Now there we go.
0:16
Lovely. And Glenn came glasses as well.
0:18
Superb. Well, cheers.
0:22
So The thing is that since we don't have a real Indian
0:27
narrative to say, cheers, along with Indian single malt, I'm
0:31
also evangelizing an Indian way to say it.
0:34
So together with me we will say Jai ho, Jai ho, Jai ho, Jai ho.
0:41
Welcome to the Whiskey Stories podcast.
0:43
The nature of evaporation is very different in Goa because
0:48
it's 70 plus percentage of moisture, so we'll lose more
0:52
alcohol. Took a sip and I really didn't
0:56
know what hit me because this was the this was the first
0:59
introduction of a peated whiskey and I didn't know that whether
1:06
it should taste like this or have I been served something
1:10
wrong. OK, welcome along to the Whiskey
1:12
Stories podcast, myself, Graham Cogar, and well, we're not back
1:17
in our usual surroundings. We're not back.
1:19
Sandwiched nicely between the the gents toilets and the the
1:22
bar at the Athletic Arms were thousands and thousands of miles
1:26
away. We're in tropical Bangalore, I'm
1:29
in the Paul Hotel in Bangalore and I'm joined by the Paul John
1:34
brand ambassador, Mr. Himanshu Asha Himanshu, how are you?
1:37
Very. Well, welcome to Bangalore and
1:40
welcome to India. Oh, fantastic.
1:42
Listen, look, can't complain. We've got 12345677 drams in
1:47
front of us. Yeah, we're having a great time.
1:49
But no, it's it's great. Thank you so much for for
1:51
arranging to meet me. Thanks for welcoming into this
1:53
hotel. And yeah, it's been fantastic.
1:56
I've been on a bit of a WW journey whilst I've been over
1:59
here. You arranged very kindly last
2:01
week for me to go and visit the Paul John Distillery and Goa
2:04
Which? Our pleasure.
2:06
Yeah, which will be out as a vlog right now.
2:08
So if you get a chance, you want to see how they make whiskey in
2:10
India go and see that because it's absolutely fantastic.
2:13
But yeah, well, it's it's it's great to be here.
2:16
We've been messaging backwards and forwards for the last two or
2:18
three months, but planning this. So thank you so much and for
2:21
welcoming here. Now we're in now the Paul hotel.
2:25
First of all, I noticed that the Paul on the logo is very similar
2:30
to the Paul and the Paul John logo.
2:33
So I'm assuming is this all owned by the same company then?
2:36
Yes. So it is owned by the same
2:39
gentleman, Mr. Paul P John, right.
2:42
And he has two business verticals. 1 is alcoholic
2:46
beverages, another is hospitality.
2:48
Yep, they go well together, I hear.
2:50
Absolutely, yes. So and and he's very passionate
2:54
about bringing, being the purveyor of Indian luxury.
2:59
So we have in the hospitality divisions, we have hotels which
3:05
have been, you know, well acclaimed.
3:09
And so there are about 5. 2IN Kerala, Yep, and three in
3:18
Karnataka. OK.
3:19
So Karnataka be in the state that we're in right now.
3:21
Bangalore is the state of Karnataka.
3:22
So this is one of the flagship hotels, Yeah.
3:26
And then the other flagship hotel in Kerala is Kumarakam
3:30
Lake Resort. And from there, the story begins
3:34
of having the others coming on board.
3:36
Yeah, and expanding as we speak. Wow, I mean it is, I mean, I've
3:39
never I've been to Bangalore a few Times Now, but I've never
3:42
ventured into into this part. But I think I'll definitely will
3:45
be coming back because there's quite a few, there's a few nice
3:46
bars in the hotel and. There's a microbrewery here.
3:49
A microbrewery as well. Fantastic.
3:51
There's there's quite a lot of microbreweries in Bangalore.
3:54
I'm waiting for some micro distilleries to start popping up
3:56
as well because they're getting halfway there.
3:57
They're making the beer. Yeah.
3:59
All they need to do is just start sticking it in some
4:00
stills. Yes.
4:01
Well, let's talk about yourself then.
4:03
First time, Andrew, because you're a brand ambassador for a
4:07
whiskey company in India. So how did that all come out?
4:10
What was your journey into whiskey?
4:12
Well, you know, I have a short introduction.
4:19
So I came into the Alcobev in 94 OK and at that time I was with a
4:31
small company in a very large corporate called UB Global,
4:36
which was part of the UB Group. So that's union breweries, so.
4:39
United. Breweries.
4:40
Sorry. And then they had the mandate to
4:46
globalize the beer and export the spirits.
4:49
So the company was formed that was called UB Global.
4:52
And I started my journey soon out of my masters, my MBA and I
4:58
started my journey in the international business company.
5:02
And is that so? Because UB is a big part of
5:06
Bangalore, isn't it? Yes.
5:07
So you know, because it's Vijay Mallya.
5:10
And was that what was his father?
5:12
Who was? Vital Mallya.
5:13
Vital Mallya was he was a starter of it, wasn't it?
5:16
And they started a brewing empire effectively, which led
5:19
all the way up to at one point owning A owning a Formula One
5:23
team. Absolutely.
5:24
Air, air, air travel. They did all and and then all
5:28
kind of kind of ended in a little bit of.
5:31
Yeah, it, it kind of, it was a even in 94 when I came, the
5:38
group was very diversified. It had, it had pharmaceuticals,
5:44
it had software, it had hotels, resorts in South Africa, it had,
5:53
you know, it had FMCG products like fruit juices and so on and
5:58
so forth. So it was a very well diverse
6:02
conglomerate. After that I kind of had a
6:06
chance introduction with Mr. Paul And in the, In this journey
6:13
of alcohol, I was interested, I got personally interested in
6:17
wines. OK.
6:19
And the, and one of the first projects of premiumizing John
6:24
Distilleries, which is the other business of Alcobev of Mr. Paul
6:27
P John was the wine project, OK, the big Banyan wine project.
6:33
And 2006 is when I got in, in that project.
6:40
And then we started the whole journey of building the brand,
6:46
the team, the wine, and that was how I got back into alcohol.
6:51
Yeah, there you go. And subsequently, thereafter,
6:55
the Paul John single Malt project came in.
6:58
Yeah. And I was fortunate enough to be
7:03
be part of the beginning of that journey.
7:06
Yeah, till now. So wow, it's been an exciting
7:09
it. Certainly has.
7:11
Yeah. Because I mean, like, that's the
7:12
question I've got here, is you're turning into whiskey.
7:14
And. Yeah.
7:15
But the Paul Johns story itself, Yes, is because it's, it's funny
7:19
seeing, you know, who is Paul John.
7:22
Yeah. And you see a whiskey with the
7:23
name, just the name Paul John. Yeah.
7:25
There's plenty of Glens in Scotland.
7:27
Yes, there's very few Pauls. Yeah, even since I remember the
7:33
first time I ever came to India. And again, I've, I've talked
7:38
about this plenty of times on the on the podcast.
7:40
We've been through our our own journey of whiskey, right over
7:43
the last two years on the podcast where so many different
7:47
things have been perceptions have been changed, challenged
7:50
our perceptions and changed them.
7:52
And one of the big challenges that I always had, which has
7:54
been a big change for me is if I would say 2-3 years ago,
8:00
definitely if it's not Scotch, it's not whiskey.
8:02
I'm not all they're drinking it. Yes.
8:04
And that was never true. Or the first time I ever came to
8:07
India. I can't.
8:07
I think it might have been in Jai.
8:08
I would have been Jaipur, I thought.
8:09
I can't remember where it was exactly.
8:11
And the guy who was with us, an Indian friend, Kevin, his name,
8:16
as he said, I was drinking Ballantine's.
8:20
OK. Because a lot of the places that
8:21
you could go to, I recognise that brand.
8:24
You'll know yourself and people who've listened to the podcasts
8:26
have been talking about the Indian market and we'll talk a
8:28
little bit more about that. Is single malt Scotch costs a
8:32
fortune out here Single Scotch blends don't cost as much and
8:37
then you're into the Indian whiskey.
8:38
So what I was doing was I was meeting in the middle.
8:40
I was drinking at Ballentine's because it was a little bit
8:42
cheaper and it wasn't Indian stuff.
8:43
But he mentioned, he said these guys pulled John, they're and
8:48
this would have been 2012. Might have been right, right.
8:51
Maybe 20 might have been later. I don't know.
8:53
Later. It might have been a bit later.
8:55
Trying to think now. Yeah, it would have been much
8:57
later in 2012. I want to say in 2018,
8:59
20/17/2018, that was yeah, yeah. 2018172018 saying, oh, these
9:03
guys, Paul, Paul, John. And I kind of laughed.
9:05
I tried it. I said I'll try it.
9:08
But I laughed because I was like, why would you stick your
9:10
name on the front of the bottle? Pure ignorance.
9:14
And ever since then, of course, married an Indian woman and my
9:18
current wife, as we say on the podcast.
9:20
And I've visited India so many times and I've enjoyed a lot of
9:24
Paul John whiskey. So I've never actually, I
9:26
visited the distillery last week and intentionally with Michael
9:31
de Souza, you're you're master. He took me around, but that was
9:35
all about the production and I saw all about Indian production.
9:38
And if you want to check out, check out the vlog.
9:40
But I didn't get a chance to really get into the story.
9:43
So what's the story? Paul John?
9:44
Who's Paul? John.
9:45
So as I mentioned, Mr. Paul P John, the chairman of the John
9:50
Distilleries, he his his family's father was in the
9:56
distribution of alcohol. OK so their family are from
10:02
Kerala, they're Malayalis but their roots are in the coffee
10:07
growing region of COOG. Yep.
10:09
So I've been there. Yeah, the Scottish, Indian,
10:13
Scotland of India. Yeah.
10:14
Well, yes. So that is where his roots are.
10:20
And his father was having retail, a chain of retail
10:25
stores, and he decided to get into the manufacturing of it.
10:32
And the whole genesis began by not doing Paul John single malt
10:40
first, but you focused on what the Indian market was.
10:47
And he came up with a economy brand of whiskey, which is
10:55
original choice whiskey. Original choice, yes.
10:59
So with it, so this would be a blend of Indian.
11:01
It's Indian molasses, but it had a percentage of malt in it when
11:04
it when we envisaged it. We actually sell it in a Tetra
11:09
pack. A Tetra pack.
11:11
Based like the juice box? Really.
11:14
Yes. So it's the original choice.
11:16
Whiskey. Yes, as a blend mix of molasses.
11:20
Molasses based. And with obviously we add the
11:27
colour, the flavours and colourings to get.
11:30
The but there's malt malt whiskey in there.
11:32
There's just. Small percentage.
11:33
When we started, I think there was malt in it.
11:36
I don't know about it's not OK that the composition now and it
11:39
it is with just a few people in the company.
11:42
Because when, when I spoke to Michael D'souza at the at the
11:46
distillery and he said that he's worked for the company for over
11:49
30 years. And of course I was like trying
11:51
to do the maths here and I was trying to work out.
11:53
And then I can remember Paul John started the roundabout, you
11:57
know, when the distillery was being built and what have you.
12:00
So I was trying to work out what so there so the resistance.
12:02
So that distillery is outskirts of Bangalore towards Mysore.
12:06
So this this distillery of making the original?
12:08
Choice is there. That's on the way out there.
12:11
Yes. Fantastic.
12:12
Yeah. All right, So that's so that's
12:13
that's the that's the. Beginning that's the genesis of
12:16
that. And then obviously the hotel
12:20
division which I talked about earlier.
12:22
So the first hotel was Kumarakam Lake resort in Kerala on the
12:28
lake of Emanade. And it's it's in featured in in
12:34
several international magazines like Kondenas and Rob Reports,
12:37
and several as one of the best places for honeymoon.
12:42
Oh wow. Yeah, really.
12:44
There you. Go and now a lot of weddings
12:45
happen there as well because again that that part what has
12:49
been expanded as as a as a offering of destination wedding.
12:55
Fantastic. So, so right.
12:57
So what was the timeline then or the the point where because you
13:01
mentioned wine, so did they get into it is wine?
13:03
So in 2006, so there was obviously the economy segment
13:07
and a very large market share in Karnataka because of original
13:12
choice. Original choice.
13:12
Most of that was sold in Karnataka in the neighboring
13:15
state of Andhra Pradesh and Telangana.
13:19
And then the road to premiumization was envisaged.
13:25
And the 1st, at that time, about 2006, wine was the the big
13:32
potential for India. Yeah.
13:36
And the first project was big banyan wine.
13:38
And Michael D'souza was the master disler now, was the wine
13:42
maker then. He's a wine maker also, Yeah,
13:45
he's not everything. And that's what they comprise.
13:46
Exactly so. So we we had a collaboration
13:49
with an Italian wine maker and a witiculturist and he's still
13:53
there with us. And Michael was the resident
13:57
wine maker. Now we have another wine maker
14:00
so. You're still making wine then?
14:01
Yeah, we're still making, again, that is a little far away from
14:05
our first distillery towards going towards Mysore and that's
14:11
near the big Banyan tree and it's called the Big Banyan
14:14
Wines. Yeah, nice.
14:16
So it's Indian wine. So you're not importing any.
14:18
Wine No. No, it's all made.
14:20
So there's a very nice and does that.
14:23
Well, we'll maybe come to that later on actually talking about
14:25
casks and maturation and having access to wine casks and things
14:28
like that as well. But right, so, so I suppose it's
14:32
a, it's a, it's a tier we're seeing from the the start off
14:35
with the with the economic blend that you can put out to the mass
14:40
market. Yes.
14:41
And roughly speaking, what's a bottle of the original choice
14:44
set in your back? Really just few 100.
14:47
Rupees few ₹100. So you're right in there yeah at
14:49
that at that level where you're every your, your mass market.
14:54
So then you've gone into the next level wine and then of
14:57
course the next step up into that into the sort of premium
15:00
level of. Yeah.
15:01
So the background to that was because we had a little bit of
15:06
malt in our original choice. The malt plant was set up for
15:11
captive consumption first, OK. And then it was built to scale,
15:16
to present Paul John single malts to the world.
15:19
Right. And was this the distillery in
15:21
Goa? Goa.
15:22
Yeah. Because it's because you're.
15:25
It's a strange situation here. Where So Paul John is a
15:29
Karnataka based headquartered, headquartered in Bangalore.
15:33
John Distilleries, John Distilleries, right.
15:34
So you're in Bangalore, but go as a completely separate state,
15:38
right. And so you, you the, the
15:40
decision is instead of building a distillery in Bangalore,
15:43
you've decided to build a distillery in a completely
15:45
different state. But again, when you look at
15:50
when, when, when when speaking to Michael and he talked about
15:53
the flavour profiles that you can get out of Paul John, and
15:56
we're big on that in Scotland where you've got maritime malts
15:59
like old Poultney and you've got, you know, other distinctive
16:02
characteristics of location. It's easy to say, OK, Isle is
16:07
peated, Highland is this and you know, you're heavily shredded in
16:11
the space side region and lighter and floral and the
16:13
lowlands, etcetera. But there are things that do
16:16
exist like Campbelltown funk that you get in in, in the
16:19
Campbelltown whiskies and and things like that.
16:21
So Tropic tropics, tropical flavours, you wouldn't probably
16:25
get that as much if you had the distillery in Bangalore.
16:28
But what was the main reasoning behind a distillery and go
16:32
instead of being just having your central hub in one city and
16:36
your distillery in the same city?
16:38
So, so remember that we we already had a distillery here
16:42
which was making original choice, but that was not suited
16:46
for making the malt plant that is just.
16:50
A grain distillery. A grain production factory
16:52
effect. Yeah.
16:53
So that is one part, The second part of why Goa because you know
16:59
if you observe the landscape of India because of Goa with the
17:11
Portuguese influence and so on so forth, had a very, very, I
17:15
would say open approach to alcohol, OK, Yeah.
17:19
And manufacturing alcohol. And today a lot of start-ups go
17:23
to Goa to make their brand first.
17:26
Yeah, yeah. Before they set up any
17:28
manufacturing units. So Mr. Paul Bijan had the vision
17:33
and the government was, I would say, very welcoming to set up a
17:39
malt plant there. Yeah.
17:41
Yeah. And so you have to also
17:43
understand this is this is obviously the economics of
17:46
things to driving it. The second part was Amrut was
17:52
already here. Yeah, yeah, right.
17:54
Now, a, if you make a single malt in the country, it's going
18:00
to definitely have tropical, you know, maturation, but it's going
18:08
to be different in different locations because Bangalore is
18:11
dry weather. So the Angel share they lose
18:16
more water. Yeah, Yeah.
18:18
Well, I mean, I think it was, I think even in Goa, 8%.
18:22
Right. But the nature of evaporation is
18:26
very different in Goa because it's 70 plus percentage of
18:30
moisture. Yes.
18:31
So we'll lose more alcohol. Oh, right.
18:34
OK, so you're losing the. I mean, to be honest, I was
18:36
walking through, not the I went into two warehouses and people
18:40
who listen to the podcast will know what warehouses do to me.
18:44
In in you have to mention you went in the winter of Goa.
18:47
This is this is the winter. Yeah, and it was.
18:50
Well, I was roasted, but also every breath I was taking in.
18:52
We had Jake Adkook from Ian MacLeod Distillers on the
18:56
podcast talking about he had just come back from a trip where
18:59
he had visited the Una Distillery up in the north and
19:03
which has been built by Ian MacLeod Distillers in India side
19:06
of the company. And he said, you know, when you
19:11
come to when you come into warehouses in Scotland, you
19:13
obviously have to take the precautions very seriously.
19:15
I think the technical term for that is it's an 8X rated zone,
19:18
meaning that the atmosphere has, you know, an explosive element
19:23
to it because of the alcohol in the air.
19:25
But you're in Scotland, OK. And a lot of the time, these big
19:28
area warehouses, you'll sometimes feel like if you walk
19:30
into an old dunnage warehouse, low roof, you know, moisture on
19:35
the floor, you can feel the air is slightly heavier.
19:39
Jake talked about, he said that he would have been worried
19:42
striking a match within the vicinity of this warehouse
19:44
because of that. I didn't appreciate that until I
19:47
walked into one. It wasn't the first warehouse I
19:49
went into because that was a big warehouse.
19:51
Yeah. You still felt the hair was
19:53
heavy. But the second warehouse I went
19:55
into, it felt like every single breath I was taking in, I was
19:58
getting a hit of alcohol. Yeah.
20:00
Because of the intensity of the atmosphere in there.
20:03
It was. It was incredible.
20:04
So that's very interesting if you were to.
20:08
If you were to mature the casks in Bangalore, the water content
20:12
would be what you're losing more of, yes, Whereas in Goa, yeah,
20:15
because of the difference in the heat.
20:17
The heat, because there the temperature is nearly the same
20:21
throughout. It just gets, as Michael puts
20:24
it, hot and hotter. Yeah.
20:25
So, yeah. So it was I think 30°C plus
20:30
yeah, the day you would have. Visited, yeah.
20:33
Yeah, and that's Winter of Goa Mental.
20:35
Yeah. And the so our microclimate is
20:41
maritime tropical, Yeah, because we are just about 10 kilometers
20:46
from the seashore. Yeah, yeah.
20:47
And so it's not on the banks of a seashore, but it still has an.
20:54
Influence. There's saltiness in the.
20:56
Air, there's just, I would say an influence of that the cask is
21:01
reacting very differently and, and here is where you can see
21:08
the that black fungus. Yeah, yeah, all over the walls
21:12
and the walls, a lot of it because we are losing a lot of
21:14
alcohol. Absolutely.
21:15
And I suppose as well, you know, one of the things that Michael
21:18
talked about was water source because Goa does get hot and
21:22
hotter. But I laughed at my, I was
21:24
having a laugh because I went into the, the, the, the gift
21:29
shop, got myself a baseball cap and a few things and I saw lots
21:33
of umbrellas. Yeah, and of.
21:35
Course I'm sitting there and it's like blue skies, sunshine
21:38
and 30 odd degrees outside. I'm thinking I bet they don't
21:41
sell many umbrellas here. But then I was told that you
21:44
know, by the time you get is it may time or anything and go the
21:47
rain season then becomes and people were actually speaking to
21:51
a couple, an older couple on the way home.
21:54
We were waiting in the departure lounge to get onto the plane and
21:57
they were from Bangalore originally but they've moved to
22:00
Goa. But they said this year is or 25
22:03
is the first year they spent the rain season there.
22:06
And this guy was saying, I just didn't think it was ever going
22:09
to stop like a tap. Yeah, it just rains for days.
22:13
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it doesn't stop.
22:14
It just rains for days. But then I suppose the
22:16
temperature maintains the same, which will just create this
22:20
humid atmosphere. It's it's hot and muggy.
22:23
Yeah, and the cast, then the breathing of the wood.
22:26
Yeah. And again, Michael explained.
22:28
And it makes so much sense was he said about 98% of the the
22:33
wood management program is all American oak.
22:35
Yeah, and it all comes from what's the bourbon?
22:41
What's the Bourbon? Buffalo Trace?
22:43
Buffalo Trace. That's it.
22:44
So all most of the wood comes from Buffalo Trace.
22:46
But then when you think about it, the climates and things like
22:48
that, for the wood management programme, you would need to be
22:51
try and find a place that has warm climates that you're doing
22:54
that. Because I remember George Keeble
22:57
talking about Starward Distillery in Australia.
23:01
Australia. Yeah.
23:02
Was it Starward? It might be Starward.
23:05
But anyway, and he was talking about how the casks would
23:09
breathe, Yeah, and the ABV would actually increase.
23:12
Because they lose more water. Because.
23:13
They're losing the water and so, but it's just insane.
23:16
I mean that that must be such a challenge.
23:18
Yeah. And again, we talk about the aid
23:22
no age statements on Paul John. Yes, there's seven years is
23:26
roundabout there, as Michael would say, is round about the
23:29
sort of optimum age for maturing whiskey.
23:32
And because the maturation process, yeah, is accelerated so
23:36
much. Yeah, incredible, absolutely
23:38
fantastic. So the distillery then being
23:41
built when? When did they just start
23:44
building? The project started in 2005,
23:47
2005, Sarkar 2005 and then we launched Paul John Single Malls
23:52
in 2012 in the UK. Right.
23:55
So it was a launch you launched? In the UK in the first launch
23:58
was in the UK at the Whiskey Show. 2012.
24:01
That was the first foray over there.
24:05
In Goa we launched in end of 2013 and in Bangalore 2015.
24:12
So fast. So you purposely decided that
24:15
you're making single malt whiskey in India, in Goa, but
24:19
the first place that you wanted to launch was in international
24:22
markets first. Yeah.
24:23
So going back, you know, your original choice whiskey that
24:27
you're making is for the for the mass in India, but at the same
24:30
time you're making single malt in Goa and even the fact that So
24:34
what 2012 you said you launched in London and in 20. 15/20/13 in
24:40
Goa, 2015 in Mangalore. Where your headquarters are,
24:42
yes. So even the place where your own
24:45
headquarters are, you waited three extra years to launch.
24:48
Yeah, yeah. See, you have to like first you
24:51
have to, I'll have to bring you the context of things.
24:55
The 2012, why we went to the UK, because that is the most matured
25:03
palate, OK, Right. It was a litmus test to see
25:11
where our liquid stands, right. So that was the first thing.
25:17
At that point of time, we didn't have much liquid as we have
25:20
today. Yeah.
25:21
So spreading yourself thin was not Yeah, yeah.
25:25
So we wanted to understand what the most evolved market which is
25:31
producing and consuming whiskey market would, you know, taste
25:39
and give us feedback for us to also move ahead on the journey
25:44
because the compass could then change.
25:47
Yeah, of course. So that was the first thing to
25:49
do. 2013 is when we launched in Goa because Goa again, it's the
25:58
place where we make it. It's it's the birth place of
26:02
Paul John, single malls, but everyone from India comes to
26:06
Goa. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
26:08
Right. And one of the top of the things
26:11
that they shop is new alcohol that they don't get back
26:17
because, you know, we are a state subject.
26:21
Yeah, well, I mean, I have to say it was.
26:26
It's always nice to get first. I There's a few things
26:29
travelling to Goa and it is really fascinating when you
26:32
travel state by state in different places.
26:35
Yes, especially when you know what you're looking at
26:37
beforehand. You know, I visit a few
26:39
different places and States and territories until before really
26:42
whiskey was on my radar. Now it is First things first.
26:46
I arrived in Goa, went into one of the duty free shops and it
26:52
was the first time I've ever been able to buy a bottle of
26:54
Scotch whiskey cheaper in India then I'd be able to buy it back
26:58
in Scotland. There was a Ballantine's Glen
27:01
Burgie 15 Ballantine's people who listen no has a nice space
27:06
for me. Glen Burgie is a huge distillery
27:10
that we love on the podcast. Shout out to Connor O'Keefe.
27:13
Actually the one of the distillers at Holy Rood
27:16
Distillery who set up What about Glen Burgie Facebook page.
27:19
So I saw that there and I quick Google showed me that I was
27:24
saving myself about 15 lbs by buying it in Goa.
27:27
Now number one, that particular release in bottle is not
27:31
available in Bangalore in Karnataka, right?
27:33
So I wouldn't be able to #2 if it was available, it would
27:36
probably be a considerably more expensive than it would be in in
27:40
Goa. So that was that distillery too.
27:42
I did all that and then on the way home I thought, right, I'm
27:45
going to pop in and buy another couple of bottles.
27:48
And yeah, it it was for a word that we use in Scotland in that,
27:52
in that booze shop, the duty free booze shop, gin, whiskey,
27:57
Brandy, everything there. A word that we would use is a
28:00
rammy. It was an absolute rammy, right?
28:02
Which was elbows out, everyone was out because everybody was
28:07
every and there was people. I mean, bear in mind we're then
28:09
go International Airport. So there's people travelling all
28:11
over in the end and maybe further afield there's people
28:14
just grabbing these bottles. Bottles, yeah, because like you
28:16
said, it's 5 litres is is your allowance but leaving Goa, but
28:21
it was because of the price and that is that's not big.
28:23
As well as well and. And the other thing, sorry to,
28:26
but just driving through Goa and to different places, I noticed a
28:31
lot more alcohol advertisement around, but all advertising
28:38
bottled packaged water because every, every single alcohol
28:41
company seems to have bottled packaged water, which we'll
28:44
probably come to later on. But so it is a different game.
28:47
It's a completely different game in Goa than it is over here in
28:50
Bangalore and state of Karnataka and other states around India
28:52
I'm sure as. Well, yes, so So the other thing
28:56
was that since India comes to Goa at least once a year, if we
29:06
would get the pulse of India. Yeah.
29:09
Very quickly, yeah, When we launch first in Goa rather than
29:15
in Bangalore. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:17
Because it is like the holiday destination.
29:19
Exactly. It's a holiday destination.
29:21
You have music festivals there. You have, it's a, it's a
29:26
destination for Indian weddings, yeah, Yeah.
29:29
So it's a it's also a lot of corporate excursions happens
29:35
there. So.
29:36
And now long weekend. Yeah, people had to go.
29:42
Well, I mean, it was an hour, an hour on the flight.
29:44
In fact there was 4048 minutes from the wheels leaving the
29:47
tarmac to the wheels touching the tarmac from from Bangalore
29:50
to Goa. So yeah, really easy.
29:52
Yeah, it's just easy and and so is Bombay and so on and so
29:56
forth. So so as they say, Goa has now 2
30:01
tourist season, the season and the peak season really.
30:06
So yeah. Yeah, there we go.
30:08
Well, maybe actually, you know, whiskey stories.
30:10
Yeah. Whiskey stories.
30:12
Whiskey festival in Goa would be quite exciting.
30:14
Yes, absolutely. Sponsored by Paul John, of
30:17
course. Absolutely.
30:18
There are a few distilleries that we can so we and then there
30:23
is an arts festival where we where we all participate and so
30:26
on and so forth. Yeah, right.
30:28
So you got me through these first releases then, right?
30:32
What are we looking at? What, what are we looking at,
30:35
what the first releases were like versus what we're looking
30:38
at for the Paul John inventory now?
30:41
Right. So we first started with the
30:45
flagship, which is brilliance and bold.
30:51
Brilliance, edited and bold. This was the flagship, so
30:54
brilliance was the unpeated at 46%, edited was just a hint of
31:01
peat and bold was the peated whiskey.
31:06
And now this was the flagship. And then we did some couple of
31:10
single cast again just to understand how and they were
31:15
full cast trends, how the market would react to the single cast.
31:21
But that's what we started with and for a long time I think till
31:28
2015262018 is when we started and we had classic select cast,
31:35
which was select cast classic unpeated at near cast trend at
31:41
55.2 and then we had select cast peated which was at 55.5.
31:47
So this was the starting portfolio that we had brilliance
31:52
edited board as flagship classic and peated as select cast and
31:57
then there was some one or two single casks that we had done.
32:00
Right. And when, when you go back and
32:04
look at the way Paul John was starting out over in London
32:08
2012, Fast forward to where we are now in 2026, right, You know
32:12
you've still got the the flagships there.
32:14
Has there been a change in the, in the consistency of the, of,
32:19
of creating those? You know, if I was to pick a
32:21
bottle of, of bold up or a bold or, or brilliant or brilliant,
32:26
would there be a difference in the, the, the distillery
32:29
character or difference in the flavour profile coming through
32:32
because of the changes? Because that's what we always
32:34
talk about with new distilleries is it is the great thing, you
32:38
know, no one's alive today that said, Oh well, you know, I can't
32:43
wait to try Spring Bank when it's 10 years old, right?
32:46
You know, whereas now with the burst of new distilleries in
32:49
Scotland and across the world, yeah, people can sit there and
32:52
go, you know what, I'm really excited to find out what the
32:55
what Paul John will taste like in 10 or 15 years time.
32:59
OK, so the answer is yes and no. No, there has not been a DNA
33:09
change. OK.
33:11
The DNA coming from the core ingredient of six row barley
33:16
from a particular monster at a particular specifications would
33:21
hold the distillery character as a as a DNA one-on-one Goa hasn't
33:26
changed, right. So those I would think that
33:30
would be the constant for us. Michael hasn't changed.
33:33
So, but at the same time, yes, why is the change?
33:38
The change is we are learning, Yeah, right.
33:42
We are learning from the people who have been before us, the
33:49
Scots, the Japanese, the Taiwanese.
33:51
So we we we absorb a lot and the whilst we follow exactly as per
33:57
the SWA guidelines which is 100% malt, which is twice copper pot
34:03
distilled and aged in oak for a minimum of three years.
34:08
But as we are ticking the boxes, we know that every line is a
34:14
different meaning to it. So why is this 100% malt?
34:19
It's not two row barley, it's the Indian 6.
34:21
Row Barley. Yep, Yep.
34:23
Right, it is copper pot distilled.
34:25
Not in the cold climes of Scotland or northern Europe or
34:29
higher Japan. No, no end in May.
34:30
It's and the pot stills are made in India, right in a dry state
34:34
of Gujarat. Yeah, because I came home and
34:37
because I was, you know, we were watching in the the woman's IPL
34:43
was on a couple of nights ago and it was Bengaluru, RCB, Royal
34:47
Chandler, Bengaluru versus Gujarat Giants.
34:51
I think they're and I was able to sit there.
34:53
Gujarat, that's where the stills are made and my father-in-law is
34:57
going. Are you sure?
34:58
Yeah, yeah, that's where the stills are made.
34:59
I'm 100% sure it's. I don't think so, Graham.
35:02
I said definitely, I made there, he said.
35:04
But Gujarat's a dry state, yeah. So a completely dry state making
35:07
stills. Making stills, copper stills for
35:09
the distillation of whiskey and and Goa.
35:11
Yeah, fantastic. Yeah.
35:13
So, so that again the pot stills are made in India and then we
35:18
age in American oak, Yeah. Ex bourbons for a minimum of
35:26
three years, yeah, but it's 3 tropical years, yeah.
35:31
So which has we lose 10% the first year and 8% for every
35:38
year, right. And one year of aging in Goa,
35:46
heuristically speaking, and which you would have seen at the
35:50
tasting show, you saw the difference and what happens in
35:54
the first year, the second year, the third year, the color
35:56
changing. So, so it really, really leeches
36:00
out color, flavor, aromas from from from the cask that the
36:05
interaction is as intense and as rapid.
36:09
Like a tea bag in a hot cup of tea.
36:13
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. As compared to a cold brew where
36:16
you put a cold water cup and you put the same tea bag, you are
36:22
really looking at a very, very long brew happening now.
36:27
We are the hot brew of whiskey. So I mean, roughly speaking then
36:31
I know that you'd probably look at it being the losses equate to
36:35
around about the equivalent of in one year you're losing
36:38
roughly about four years worth of losses exactly.
36:41
But with the, I mean, I suppose with acceleration process of
36:45
maturation with what a 5 year old Paul John, a 5 year old
36:50
whiskey matured in that circumstance versus A5 year old
36:54
whiskey matured in the North of India or even in Scotland, there
36:57
would be a year's difference in the flavour profile potentially,
37:00
yes. There would be so like like
37:03
copper pot still what we talked about and you saw the the still
37:06
safe being open. So even the cut we take is
37:10
organolyptic decision to that. Was mental.
37:13
So I'm asking where do you take your cut points from?
37:16
And then Michael kind of said like, there it is.
37:19
What do you mean? Like I, I was trying to get my
37:21
head round this. Like, you know, we, we do
37:23
everything on sensory basis. Yes, where?
37:25
And as I say, the, the spirit safe's wide open and the
37:28
spirit's pouring out. So at one point I'm just
37:32
standing there, the spirit safe wide open.
37:34
And I said so. And he said we, we, because of
37:37
the distillation and the, the tropics and the, the way things
37:39
are, you know, you, you have full control of your, your
37:44
mashing and your fermentation. I think you said around 50 hours
37:47
fermentation, but then it's left it's left to then just sit for a
37:50
little while before it gets put into the put into the stills.
37:53
But you have control over that to create a fruity high esters
37:59
sort of wash. But the fact that when the
38:04
stills are running and the well when the stills are going and
38:06
the the spirits coming through the spirit safe, it's still
38:10
sensory based yes. So it's still somebody taking
38:13
the cup one. That's it Ready now?
38:15
Yeah, Cut it there and cut it at that point, which is just crazy.
38:18
Yeah. The only time I've ever seen
38:20
that on the podcast is that Dornak, Dornak distillery of
38:24
Phil and Simon when they were literally just pouring it into a
38:27
big steel bucket. Yeah.
38:28
And the other guy because of their distillery was so small.
38:30
So it was fascinating. Tell me, tell me more about then
38:34
the difference in markets and marketing, Paul John, because,
38:38
you know, and imagine an Indian market, an Indian whiskey
38:41
entering the market in 2012. World whiskey was world whiskey.
38:47
Was it a growth point at that stage?
38:50
So if you look at Sarkar 2012, you would really notice that as
39:00
a world whiskey, there was only Japanese and Taiwanese.
39:07
Yeah, from Asia, right? Americans were doing Bourbons,
39:16
Irish were doing Irish. So it was very, very, very, very
39:20
strict guardrails of definition. And now is a very different and
39:29
I think the playbook is very much from the wines.
39:33
When you look at France, Italy, Spain, Germany were the old
39:37
world. And suddenly you had the
39:40
Americans making wine and then you had Steven Spurrier doing
39:45
Judgment of Paris, where he blind tasted American and French
39:50
right wines and the American wines came on the top.
39:53
Wow. Judged by the French gourmans
39:57
and wine journalists. Yeah, so right.
40:00
And that changed the game completely.
40:01
Yeah. Similarly, today you have.
40:04
Whiskeys from Australia? Yeah, you have whiskeys from
40:08
France, Single malts from France, You have Italy, Italy.
40:12
Yeah, you have Thailand, you have South Korea.
40:18
And more are coming. Yeah, Americans now have a
40:21
single malt as a category. Yeah.
40:23
And it's interesting because a lot of the things when we speak
40:26
to people about international whiskey is they say that even
40:29
England single malt boom in England is starting to take
40:32
people and people are sitting there going no, no.
40:35
And you know, we can have a laugh about it, but there's some
40:37
very, very nice whiskeys coming out of out of England.
40:40
Yeah. But one of the things that
40:44
people are saying is that that there's no constraints.
40:48
You mentioned the SWA regulations that you follow.
40:51
People like, you know, the Southwest there serves a massive
40:54
purpose for Scotch whiskey because it protects Scotch
40:57
whiskey as a brand. It protects all that.
40:59
But what it can also some things do is by protecting the heritage
41:03
of Scotch whiskey, it can also stop, you know, innovation
41:09
because they'll say you can't use that type of cask or, you
41:12
know, it's got to be bottled under this regulation or it
41:14
can't be done like that. So when you look at Internet
41:17
like you can go South of the border in Scotland.
41:19
So you could literally drive down to the South of the border,
41:21
literally on the border, create a distillery and you don't have
41:25
to worry about these constraints.
41:26
You can you can do whatever however the hell you want.
41:29
You can bring it out after a year.
41:30
You could do it anyway. You could store it in your
41:31
garden shed if you wanted to store it in your garden shed,
41:34
what have you. And that's what makes single
41:38
malt around the world quite interesting.
41:40
Yeah. And exciting because people are
41:41
doing things differently. But you guys have chosen to
41:44
carry on with the SWA regulations.
41:46
Then. Now, I'm assuming you don't need
41:48
to do follow the SWA regulations because you're not following
41:51
Scotch whiskey, you're following Indian whiskey.
41:53
So you could say, you know what, we can bring this out.
41:55
If it's two years old, we can. So that is a, that is a
41:58
conversation, Graham. That's happening right now as we
42:00
speak. So we have formed an association
42:06
which is the Indian Malt Whiskey Association founded by, you
42:12
know, the first four single malt, Indian single malt
42:16
producers, which is Amrut Paul John Rampur and Indri Piccadilly
42:21
together. So they are the founding members
42:24
of Indian Malt Whiskey Association.
42:26
There is a, obviously there is a lot of, I would say work to be
42:30
done in that where one has to a get a GI for Indian single malt.
42:37
What it actually means We all are still following the SWA
42:43
guidelines because I think we want to collaborate across the
42:48
world. Yes, of course, we wouldn't be
42:50
able to call it whiskey, right, had it not been in this as per
42:55
the Southwest guideline and sell it in the UK.
42:57
Yeah. So and the markets would be then
43:01
restrictive again back in 2012 when and I still get that
43:08
question. India makes whiskey.
43:10
Yeah, Yeah. So, you know, and that at that
43:13
time it was far more louder that really India makes whiskey.
43:18
Can you afford to make whiskey? And so on and so forth.
43:20
So yeah. So, so yeah, so it's it.
43:25
Those were different times. And now as we and as I said, you
43:29
know, we are one, we just finished one generational work,
43:35
but we it is a work of many generations.
43:40
So how it would evolve the next 25 years is fascinating.
43:48
Do you think it's a challenge for Indian whiskey, the free
43:54
trade agreement tariffs? Because one of the things that
43:57
I've been waiting for and I'm sure many, many people in in the
44:00
Scottish industry are waiting for the tariffs.
44:02
Now we know that the free trade agreement was signed off last
44:05
year is to come into play this year at some stage or other,
44:08
which is to mean that the tariffs on Scotch whiskey is to
44:10
drop from 150% down to 75% and then for the next four or five
44:15
years it's to continue to drop. But what does that mean for the,
44:19
for the Indian whiskey market? Because you can pick up a bottle
44:23
of Paul John or, or Injury Amaru or any of that.
44:26
You can go officer's choice or royal challenge, whatever.
44:31
You could buy these whiskeys in India at very reasonable prices,
44:34
right? And what it does is it creates
44:35
its own micro, well, not micro mass market because Scotch sits
44:40
so much higher on the shelf, right?
44:42
If the Scotch prices were to come down, then it gives the
44:44
consumer a little bit more choice.
44:46
Why would I drink Paul John when I could actually drink an
44:50
Aberlower or a Glenn Levitt or anything like that, which at the
44:53
moment are severely priced a lot, a lot higher than what
44:59
Indian single malt is? So a, there's obviously never
45:04
one response of perspective, but again, I go back to wine because
45:10
the playbook has been longer than the Indian single malt and
45:14
wine in India and specific. So our first free trade
45:19
agreement of, of a very large scale was with Australia, OK.
45:26
And the anticipation was that there's a, there's a billion
45:33
litre lake in Australia of wine and that would come into into
45:40
India and the Indian wine industry would have to bear the
45:44
brunt of it. We are here.
45:48
And so I think that whilst that will be true, because India is
45:53
more of a spirit market and it is a bronze spirit market, I
45:58
would think that a few things would happen. 1 is it would
46:04
happen as a pallet expansion that would happen because you're
46:09
tasting new whiskeys. That's number one.
46:12
Number two, India is a very, very price sensitive market.
46:19
We we have luxury, we have affordable luxury, we have mass
46:26
premium, we have mass stige, which is mass and prestige.
46:30
So, so, so like subcultures, we have very, very, I would say
46:37
market segments that are going to get far more defined, right.
46:43
Having said that, what the duty structure is at the central
46:50
level of customs duty? Yeah.
46:53
You still have the states to deal with.
46:55
Yeah, well. This is The thing is, we could
46:56
see now states may be arising their duty.
46:58
So we don't know how that would play out.
47:01
And I think that's on the economics part of things, of
47:07
course, right. The second part of things is
47:11
Indian single malls and specifically Paul John single
47:14
malls with 370 international awards, one also in Scotland,
47:19
yeah, yeah and and in London and in different parts of Europe, US
47:24
and Japan have established A credibility yeah right.
47:31
And our I would say mostly that the the top players of the
47:36
Indian single malt industry have established an are establishing
47:41
the credibility of quality and taste.
47:44
Well, I think if you, if, if, if it travels the world, which Paul
47:47
John does exactly. And for Paul, I mean, one of the
47:50
things as well, you see the awards down the side there.
47:53
But the other thing is, you know you, I've I can see more access
47:58
to Paul John whiskey in Scotland than I can see for any other
48:01
Indian whiskey. That you right, because I think
48:03
it's it's the work that has been done it's just not putting the
48:08
whiskey it's putting the whiskey and ensuring that the stories
48:11
get told and that's that's what my.
48:13
Yeah. That's what.
48:15
That's what what my job. Well, one of the bottles, so I,
48:18
I took 2 bottles, a very kindly gifted 1 by the good folks at
48:21
the distillery, which is very kind of them.
48:22
It was the IT was the the Christmas edition, which I'm
48:25
drinking. I'm gonna.
48:26
Yes, please. Absolutely.
48:28
I mean, it's early, but at the same time it's a very nice
48:30
whiskey. Yeah, Now I was gifted this, but
48:33
the other thing I was I really enjoyed and Ross Barr, who
48:37
listens to the podcast and does a podcast, well, that's actually
48:40
hates, he says I pretend to like peated whiskey because I didn't
48:44
really like peated whiskey when I first started.
48:45
And now I really do it. And the pole John peated was the
48:49
favorite of mine on the on the tasting that we did at the end.
48:52
However, the reason I buy a bottle of that was because the,
48:57
the, the that was explained that I was 50% ABV, but that's the
49:01
maximum you can get it in the Indian market, yes.
49:04
Whereas if I was to buy that back in the UK, I'd be able to
49:06
get a much higher ABV if I think it's 53 or 54%.
49:11
I think yeah the the the petered is 55.5. 55 So so I thought,
49:15
well, why would I buy the 50% ABV one in India when I could?
49:18
But which is another strange anomaly that the fact that Paul
49:21
John can create these whiskeys and that must be it for a, for
49:25
a, you know, from your own point of view for distribution and
49:28
getting all that, right. You know, you've got 750ML
49:31
bottles for the Indian market, but you've also got to
49:34
concentrate on the ABV for the Indian market, right?
49:37
But then you've also got the 700ML bottles for the UK and
49:41
maybe other, other European markets.
49:43
And you can also then have the luxury of saying we don't need
49:45
to take this down to 50%, we can keep it 55 point. 5 right,
49:48
right. So you know, our Selectcast
49:52
classic and peated were sold only in Goa because the state
49:57
allowed up to 60%, right? So till recently go we we used
50:06
to sell classic and peated at the same ABV.
50:11
OK, a chairman's vision. Mr. Paul P John's vision is one
50:17
world, one liquid, one ABV. Right, OK.
50:20
Yeah, right. And like brilliance edited and
50:23
bold, we started at as 46% non chill filtered and we had to go
50:31
and speak to every excise state excise office because the
50:38
standard ABV is 42.8. But the lowest ABV that you can
50:47
achieve non chill filtered is 46.
50:50
You have 43 as light non chill filtered, but the the full non
50:55
chill filtered is is 46%. So we had to go and convince
51:01
every state excise to allow us. And then we've made a proposal
51:08
and representation to the FSSI which controls the the food and
51:14
safety regulations to allow up to 50% not realizing that it
51:23
would overrule the Goa as well. So the FSSI then tempered down
51:28
Goa state excise ABV to 50%, right.
51:31
So, so but in duty free in India, you would still get the
51:38
classic and beated at 55, right? OK, yeah, yeah.
51:41
And overseas is there and we have about close to several
51:48
SKUs, one liter for the duty free, 750ML for US and India.
51:54
We have 70 CL for Europe and UK. We have 200ML for our backs both
52:04
in glass and pet and we have the five CL as well so about almost
52:08
5 SKU's. And of course in the vlog as
52:12
well, Michael D'souza talked about you, you actually import,
52:15
you source your peat from the Highlands of Scotland.
52:17
Yes. So it's not, so you're not
52:19
actually importing peated malt, you're actually going straight
52:23
for the peat, peat and then using a Maltstar in this sort of
52:27
Northern Gurgao deli area to malt that to your specific
52:32
standards to malt a six year old.
52:33
Pilot it's in the it's in the Delhi Jaipur Hwy. right.
52:37
OK, yeah, so we, we, so it's peat is not an ingredient.
52:42
It just just required to smoke them out.
52:44
Of course. Yeah, our whiskeys as you would
52:46
have tasted are not peat heavy or peat monsters.
52:52
They are at about 3035. It's like you.
52:57
Said so we want to showcase the malt, the cask and the peat.
53:01
And that highland peat, you know the differences there, you know,
53:04
there's not got that strong intensity.
53:06
There's Maritimase brainy saltiness of there of Isla peat,
53:11
which can sometimes go into the TCP medicinal flavour.
53:14
Yes, versus I must say, you know, if I'm drinking peated
53:18
whiskey, it's a softer peat and that's probably what shines
53:22
through. If it's a dryer smoke kind of
53:23
feel. It's just very, very tasty.
53:25
And it goes very nice with the sweetness and the and the sort
53:29
of tropical fruitiness of the fruitiness of the of the spirit
53:33
that you have produced there. I'm drinking this now.
53:36
This is your Paul John. Christmas Edition Christmas
53:38
Edition 5. Yes, you're bringing out
53:40
Christmas editions every year because I think we've got the 24
53:42
and the 23. Yeah, but this is a cream cream
53:45
cast. So a cream Sherry I'm sure is a
53:48
yes. Wow, So very sweet.
53:50
I'm not had an awful I got a cream Sherry.
53:52
I was, we were chatting about it in the WhatsApp group when I was
53:55
talking about this DRAM. The first cream Sherry whiskey
54:00
that I had was only a few months ago.
54:02
And it was like the Bunahavan tasting that Ross put on at
54:06
Scotch at the Balmoral Master class there delivered by the
54:09
Bunahavan Master Blinder. And she had a canaster cask and
54:15
there was a cream Sherry cask on there, and we were trying to
54:17
work out cream Sherry. What is it?
54:19
Cream cherry? I think it's just sweet and
54:20
Sherry, isn't it? It's just, yeah, it's Sherry
54:22
that's been sweetened. But I think I'm all right in
54:24
saying that this has had a mix of Olarosso.
54:27
And dry and a sweet cherry Olarosso and Pedro Jimenez.
54:32
Yeah. So we, we season the cask with
54:35
these two. Yeah.
54:36
And then so we have Brilliance, which is five years tropically
54:42
aged in Goa and that is put into the seasoned cream cherry cast.
54:49
Right, because it's lovely. It's very, very nice.
54:50
Yeah. The other one I got was I bought
54:53
the Madeira. Oh, yes, which I love.
54:55
And this is the thing on the vlog.
54:57
I was sitting there and I had the the Mituna.
55:00
Yeah, which, which is one of your releases there, the
55:03
Madeira, the Cream Cherry. And the fourth one was the
55:05
Peated 1. And I would say the Peated 1 was
55:07
my favorite. And I think, I can't remember
55:09
exactly. I think I said that the
55:11
Christmas edition, that was my next one and then the Madeira
55:15
and then it was the then it was the Matuna.
55:19
But then after we finished recording, I still had some left
55:22
in my glass and I went back and actually, so I couldn't work out
55:24
where the, but all very, very nice whiskeys.
55:26
Now, one of the things that amazed me was so we talked about
55:31
American standard. American standard barrels is
55:34
you're getting that. Yeah.
55:35
Ex bourbon. It's all coming from from the
55:38
bourbon industry. Yeah, but then Michael took me
55:41
into one of the most incredible things I've seen.
55:44
Which was your underground seller?
55:46
Sellers Yes, and. It was taking me and it was like
55:49
this is what really surprised me was we were back in the sort of
55:52
main visitor centre building. Just in the belly of it.
55:55
Yeah, and he just says, oh, we're going to show you
55:57
something else here. And it looked genuinely could
56:00
have looked like he was just opening up a store cupboard door
56:02
with a set stairs. Because what was even great
56:04
about it was all the Christmas decorations were still lying in
56:08
this as a storage bag. So I just thought, oh, we're
56:10
going down. He said, this is our underground
56:13
seller. Now for those who haven't been,
56:16
if you go to Rosebank Distillery, they have a sort of
56:19
seller within the distillery. And it's a very nice and it's an
56:22
old style building. Yet, you know, you go inside and
56:24
they've got a very nice light show and what have you.
56:27
And there's maybe about if, if, if there's as many as 300 casts,
56:32
there's 300 casts there. So he said this and we're
56:35
walking down the stairs. And then he said we have around
56:37
3000 casks. Yes, yeah, yes.
56:40
And the only way to describe it is it's like walking into an
56:43
underground car park that's just full of casks.
56:46
Casks, yes. And it was just incredible.
56:49
It is. It is a sight.
56:50
Just an amazing place to be. Genuinely just blown away with
56:55
it. But what was a large percentage
56:58
of the cast in There are the experimental cast and you saw
57:01
Tony Port, we saw White Port, Madeira casts, there was Sherry
57:05
butts, PX and all that. Also there was virgin oak and
57:08
things like that. So that must be really exciting,
57:10
particularly for you in your role where you get an
57:13
opportunity to put these different variations down in
57:16
front of people and let them see a full scale because you've got
57:19
bourbon that is purist all the way through to beat it unbeated.
57:23
But also here it is cream Shelly, there it is all are also
57:25
Madeira, Tawny Port all these different.
57:27
Things. So I think you know, and this is
57:32
where it gets interesting, where you have, let's say in Scotland,
57:39
five regions specifically where it's it's, it's, it's a, it's
57:44
spread over a very large landmass.
57:47
We are able to have expressions from 1 distillery and having
57:55
different flavor profiles. Yeah, yeah.
57:58
That has a peated that has unpeated but also have a wine
58:06
cask finish of Ola Rosso, Pedro Jimenez, Port Madera and we also
58:12
have Virgin Oak as an expressions of award-winning
58:16
Mithuna and we have Zodiac series there as well.
58:21
So, and our annual, which most whiskey collectors look forward
58:27
to now is our Christmas. Edition yeah, yeah, I mean, so I
58:31
think I've got a shout out Hamish Rank and the ginger boy
58:34
who explained him and his dad, you know, they his dad, they
58:38
they they enjoy the Paul John Christmas edition every single
58:42
year. They look out for a bottle of it
58:44
and get that and you know it's lovely.
58:46
And one of the things we have to say is the distillery character
58:48
and the spirit now, and this is what's great, is there's nothing
58:51
wrong with any side. But you look at, for example,
58:54
Tam Do, Glenn Farklas, you know, these guys, they they make the
58:58
conscious decision that they'll only like Tam do.
59:00
And Glenn Farklas will only use Sherry cast.
59:03
And I think it's all the Russell Sherry casks for Glenn Farklas.
59:07
Sorry, Glenn Farklas only use all the Russell Sherry casks.
59:11
Yeah, first, second, third, fourth.
59:14
Phil, whatever Tam do, again, they'll only use Sherry casks
59:18
maturation. And then you go to another
59:20
distillery like Glenn Cadham or Glenn Murray and you can see
59:24
Glencadem the, when we were at the distillery visit the, the
59:28
range of finishes and it's very long finishes that they do.
59:31
It's not six months, it's years, it's two.
59:33
It all starts in bourbon and it goes two or three years and
59:37
wherever it's going to finish next, you know, so it gives it a
59:39
real proper finish. Lots and lots of wines in there.
59:42
And then you look up at Glen Murray up in, up in, up in Elgin
59:45
and they do very similar. They have such a range, a
59:49
diverse range and of of of finishes that they can put on
59:53
secondary maturation won't have you.
59:54
But also they also do a peated and unpeated spirit.
59:57
Yeah. But it just shows the spirit
59:59
depth and and how solid that distillery character and spirit
1:00:03
can be where it can stand up to so many different casts and
1:00:06
different spirit styles. Spirit.
1:00:08
Styles, yeah. So I think it's it's, and then
1:00:11
that's where, you know, as I mentioned, we follow the SWA
1:00:16
guidelines, but that's when we reinterpret that within the same
1:00:20
guardrails. As I say, one of the things that
1:00:25
we also changed was the game of cricket, yeah, which was played
1:00:30
in Britain and then got obviously.
1:00:32
Well, of course I you look at the way.
1:00:34
And now we have changed the game completely so.
1:00:37
Stoke couldn't be New Zealand in the series, so.
1:00:40
Yeah. So, so, yeah, it's it's, but you
1:00:44
know, the new formats that have come, of course, so the shorter
1:00:48
formats and I think the shorter formats are very exciting.
1:00:53
Yeah, they are. And women cricket world over is
1:00:58
now getting a global recognition.
1:01:00
Yeah. I mean, when you look at India
1:01:02
as a market, it has the ability to do that.
1:01:04
You know, you look at it and you say it's a mass market, It's one
1:01:09
of the biggest populations in the world.
1:01:10
It's going to be potentially one of the biggest economies in the
1:01:12
world very soon. So you have to look at it and
1:01:14
say people in India like this flavour profile, yeah, then
1:01:20
there's a market there to give it to them.
1:01:21
If people in India like it like this.
1:01:23
One of the things that's very interesting is when we're
1:01:25
talking about maturation, no age statement on the bottle, right?
1:01:29
Will there ever be a plan for Paul John to release an age
1:01:32
statement whiskey? See, as we are today, I would
1:01:36
always look at it and we are such a young company and I would
1:01:39
say yes, why not? But there will be a time and
1:01:44
place for it. And I think we are still
1:01:49
evolving and continuously evolving, very rapidly evolving.
1:01:53
So and Michael is at at work and it is up to his craft to say
1:02:01
that yes, we are ready and when we are ready, we are ready.
1:02:03
Yeah, yeah. And from your own point of view,
1:02:06
then brand ambassador for Paul John, what does it look like for
1:02:09
you as a, We've had brand ambassadors on the on the
1:02:12
podcast plenty of times. We've spoken to so many
1:02:14
different ones who have travelled the world who may be
1:02:16
UK based, but also there's you guys have been internationally,
1:02:19
yes, we've had brand ambassadors who've who've run the gauntlet
1:02:23
and spent their time and learnt their craft working in India
1:02:27
even as brand ambassadors through Shiva's brand ambassador
1:02:30
programme and things like that. What's it look like for a brand
1:02:32
ambassador for Paul John Whiskey?
1:02:34
Then for yourself, because you do have brand ambassadors in UK
1:02:37
as well. You have a brand ambassador in
1:02:39
the UK. Yes, we have now won a resident
1:02:43
brand ambassador in the UK. And so for you then, are you
1:02:46
just travelling around India getting pole drawn in front of
1:02:49
people? Is it what, what kind of what
1:02:52
groups are you going to? What's it?
1:02:53
What's it look like for you? So, so, so we have a team of
1:02:58
resident brand ambassadors in India as well.
1:03:01
I am the global brand ambassador.
1:03:04
So I get called upon by different where I am handling a
1:03:11
lot of markets as well in terms of sales.
1:03:14
So I end up going there. I am also required to be in, in,
1:03:22
in conversations with you and several others.
1:03:26
And I think what is important is the role of the the hat of the
1:03:33
global brand ambassador is to 1st, I would say place the
1:03:39
country first. Yep.
1:03:42
That we make quality whiskies. Second, the Indian single malt
1:03:47
category and us trying to be that representation and the flag
1:03:51
bearer of as Paul John single malt as the Indian single malt
1:03:55
category. Yeah.
1:03:56
So I think there are these roles and layers.
1:04:00
For example, I, we, we very much actively engage with the Indian
1:04:08
consulates because they address the Indian diaspora that is
1:04:15
there. They are engaged with the local
1:04:17
community, the country and they become a great platform.
1:04:21
In fact, last month I was in Turkey at the invitation of the
1:04:25
Indian consulate and they hosted 2 fantastic events in Istanbul
1:04:31
and Ankara. And that's where I need to kind
1:04:33
of show up. So I'm headed to Mysore day
1:04:36
after for an entrepreneur group to do a tasting there.
1:04:42
So it is. It is always the the the hat of
1:04:47
evangelizing Paul John Indian single malls, the category
1:04:51
Indian single malls and the country.
1:04:53
India, yeah. Because fairly similar to
1:04:54
Scotland, we've had people. Stuart Baxter.
1:04:57
Barley Baxter. Yeah.
1:04:59
Stuart, yeah, absolutely. He talked about how, you know,
1:05:05
you have to sometimes put the category first, Scotch whiskey
1:05:07
first, right. Scotch whiskey in itself is such
1:05:09
a protected brand. And we.
1:05:11
And The thing is, if we if people are drinking Scotch
1:05:14
whiskey, then eventually they'll find your whiskey.
1:05:17
Yes. And I suppose like what you've
1:05:18
just said, putting India first. Yeah, putting Indian single malt
1:05:22
for on the on the table. And then you've got that as
1:05:25
there. So, and you thought you
1:05:27
mentioned about the sort of groups that you're looking at to
1:05:29
create an Indian whiskey, Indian whiskey sort of?
1:05:32
The association of Indian model. Whiskey Association.
1:05:34
So do the brands all talk to each other?
1:05:36
Absolutely. Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
1:05:38
In fact in the coming. So a, that association is doing
1:05:46
pioneering work in terms of creating what Indian single
1:05:51
model should be as AGI. That's number one.
1:05:53
Number two, we are now going to participate together under the
1:05:58
banner of Indian Malt Whiskey Association in malt live in
1:06:03
Dubai in April. So that's the kind of path
1:06:08
breaking work. Yeah, because that's that helps
1:06:10
everybody, isn't? It.
1:06:11
High Tide lifts everybody and that's that's what we're looking
1:06:13
for. Well, absolutely fantastic.
1:06:15
We've had, you know, the whiskey's great, chats great.
1:06:18
But we are getting to the point of the conversation where I do
1:06:21
ask our guests. So Hamanshu, I'm asking for your
1:06:22
what, 3 drams? Any 3 whiskeys that have a story
1:06:25
meaning or anything associated with them.
1:06:27
And we do allow you one on brand.
1:06:29
OK. All right.
1:06:30
Thank you for for that. So I would start with, you know,
1:06:35
you, you never forget your first of everything, right?
1:06:39
So I would say that about 30 years ago when I was just a
1:06:46
greenhorn in alphabet, my first job, we had a distributor who
1:06:54
had come down and I had been part of managing that market.
1:07:02
So I was there at the dinner table, which was more like a,
1:07:05
you know, a dinner table with a senior leadership, the
1:07:09
distributor and his team. And it was, you know, the last
1:07:14
night out before they fly out. So I was just initiated into the
1:07:22
first single malt then now I was with the president of the
1:07:28
company. And so it was meal is over, you
1:07:33
know, a lot of beers were drunk and all of that.
1:07:37
And so, capping the night, it was a round of single malts in
1:07:43
Bangalore and my president ordered the Lagavulin.
1:07:50
OK. Right now I hadn't apart from
1:07:54
McDowell Single Mall which was ours at that time, I really
1:07:57
hadn't ventured much into the world of single malls then, let
1:08:02
alone laga bullying. So my so you know, I was
1:08:06
interested in what he had ordered and unbeknownst to me
1:08:11
what laga bullying stood for. I would say I went and said
1:08:15
confidently, I'll have the same Now, obviously the drinks came
1:08:20
and I am looking at that and I, you know, took a sip and I
1:08:27
really didn't know what hit me because this was the, this was
1:08:31
the first introduction of a peated whiskey.
1:08:34
And I didn't know that whether it should taste like this or
1:08:41
have I been served something wrong.
1:08:43
And I didn't know whether it should go this side or it should
1:08:46
come out looking at everybody is at the table.
1:08:49
So and the president was looking at me because he noticed that I
1:08:54
ordered the same and he kind of smiled and you know, you know,
1:09:01
that that Michael Caine nod. Yeah, yeah, he did that.
1:09:04
And then I said, yeah, OK, it's going to go to this side of the
1:09:08
of the throat. So.
1:09:10
So that was my initiation. A full blown peated whiskey from
1:09:15
Isla is that. Like a Villain 16.
1:09:18
It was a Lagavulin 16, yeah. And and that was the beginning
1:09:22
of being initiated to a single malt.
1:09:26
So that yeah. So that was the first one.
1:09:28
And that was like 30 years ago very clear in my mind even now
1:09:33
that what it was as as tasting something absolutely smoky and
1:09:37
PT on your palate the first time you said here is a single malt.
1:09:41
So, so that was I think the first one.
1:09:44
The the second one was when, you know, I started being in the
1:09:52
international business. I started traveling overseas and
1:10:01
my dad said, you know, can you bring a bottle of whiskey for
1:10:08
me? So I said, yeah, sure.
1:10:10
Tell me, what do you, what do you, what would you like me to
1:10:13
buy? So he said, OK India's
1:10:17
fascination with Johnny Walker. Yeah, India's fascination with
1:10:23
with blue label. So that was the bottle that I,
1:10:28
I, I gifted my dad, I think way back about 15 years ago.
1:10:36
Yeah. And yeah, we we kind of
1:10:41
celebrated that as I think not the first father and son drink,
1:10:48
but I think it was, it was a kind of a milestone.
1:10:53
Yeah, yeah. And I suppose when you like,
1:10:55
when you look at when you're travelling and you can see, I
1:10:57
mean, for you when you travel abroad.
1:10:59
Yeah. And you look at some of the
1:11:00
prices you'll see whiskey at. Yeah.
1:11:02
Your bag must be clinking on your way back back home because
1:11:06
yeah, yeah. I mean, Johnnie Walker Blue
1:11:08
Label. I mean, it's an expensive
1:11:10
bottle. Yeah, you know it's a bottle
1:11:14
with a price tag in the UK. In the UK.
1:11:16
Over here, it's like you talk about when you look at the
1:11:19
difference tiers of prestige and what have you.
1:11:22
You know that. I mean, I don't even know what a
1:11:24
bottle of Blue Label over here would be setting you back, but
1:11:26
it would cost you a hell of a lot more than it would.
1:11:28
Absolutely. So being able to have that
1:11:30
opportunity to bring it back home, that be lovely to
1:11:33
celebrate it, to share it. And that's what's great
1:11:35
whiskey's for sharing with. Absolutely.
1:11:36
So that was the blended whiskey that I, I mean, it's, I haven't
1:11:42
tasted the Blue Label thereafter, but I think I
1:11:46
remember that very fondly. Yeah, very good.
1:11:48
So that's that's that was the second whiskey.
1:11:51
The the third whiskey. I would say right now, I always
1:11:56
believe the best whiskey is the whiskey.
1:12:01
What's there in your glass right now at the moment?
1:12:05
So the Christmas edition, which has its own lineage and is now
1:12:11
becoming an investment grade whiskey because I've seen it in
1:12:16
some auction sites back in the UK, Yeah.
1:12:20
I suppose once it's gone, I mean, when you run a batch of
1:12:22
this, how many bottles are we talking on This is it?
1:12:24
So no, it's not mentioned there, but this year it has been about
1:12:29
6254 bottles. Which across international
1:12:33
markets? Across one world, one liquid,
1:12:35
one ABV and yeah, and, and the 2018, the 2019 are now showing
1:12:43
up in the in the auction sites in the in the UK.
1:12:48
So and I always believe the one that you have right in front of
1:12:51
you is the one that is the best whiskey in in the glass.
1:12:55
So, so together. J Ho, J.
1:12:58
Ho, there you go. One last question.
1:12:59
I was just thinking, yeah, right.
1:13:01
For the people back home, we do have a lot of people asking,
1:13:04
pairing whiskey with food, right?
1:13:06
So when you're over in India, if you were to pick one dish, 1
1:13:10
Indian dish that you were to pair a pole John with, you could
1:13:14
pick the pole John, you could pick the dish, right?
1:13:16
What we pair right now, if I was to go back home and say, right,
1:13:18
I'm going to do, I'm going to put on a Wii night and I'm going
1:13:20
to get a few pole Johns lined up and we're going to go and find
1:13:22
out. There's a few nice Curry places
1:13:24
in Edinburgh, either down in Leith or even up at up at this
1:13:27
sort of diggers end of town as well.
1:13:30
I could put an order in what? What am I ordering and what am I
1:13:33
putting down in front of everybody to have?
1:13:35
OK. So it's not only the food
1:13:39
pairing, but it's also how we consume it, right?
1:13:42
So so there's no, I would say cultural association of having
1:13:53
your dinner with alcohol. OK, and wine is just coming in
1:13:59
as on that. But you don't have a whiskey
1:14:02
with your main no, right. So in India we have something
1:14:08
called Daru, which is alcohol and chutna Chutna chutna.
1:14:13
OK, right. That's a new word that you've
1:14:15
done Chutna chutna, right. So they are small plates.
1:14:20
Yep, right. And you have anything that goes
1:14:25
you can you have the budgies and the pakoras.
1:14:28
So like you have the pakora bar in Edinburgh.
1:14:30
Yeah, yeah. And the Hollywood Rd.
1:14:32
Yeah, OK, yeah, yeah, yeah. So so you have the yeah.
1:14:36
So that's the you have the pakora, you have kebabs, you
1:14:42
have masala poppers, Right. So this is the kind of get, so I
1:14:48
would say loosely as as the chutna.
1:14:52
But if you are sitting in in Bangalore, the chutna is
1:14:56
different. If you are sitting in Delhi, the
1:14:58
chutna is different. So it's, it's what you just, you
1:15:03
know, call out and say what is there for chutna?
1:15:07
And then that place would then dish out the small plates.
1:15:12
So you definitely have masala peanuts, you definitely have
1:15:15
papers, you definitely have kebabs, you definitely have the
1:15:18
pakoras. And then you get a little bit of
1:15:22
the the regional specials that where you are sitting and like
1:15:26
it'd be very different in Bob's Bar and yeah.
1:15:28
Yeah, yeah. So I'm probably I am chicken 65
1:15:34
or. Exactly.
1:15:35
Chicken, chili chicken, all of that is, is very, very.
1:15:39
Chicken drumsticks. Chicken Lollipop.
1:15:41
Lollipops. Yeah.
1:15:42
So all of that is part of our Chutna milieu.
1:15:46
And you also have vegetarian chutnas as well.
1:15:50
So so you have a lot of the mushroom kebabs, you have the,
1:15:54
you know, your grilled paneers and yeah, yeah, paneer tikka as
1:15:58
well. So all of that comes into the
1:16:01
onto that. And I would say that, you know,
1:16:03
we don't temper our Indian food to match no, the thing.
1:16:09
So it's what you get on the table is what would get served
1:16:13
here and that's what would be the way to go about it.
1:16:16
Small plates, Indian water and like I have seen in in Indian
1:16:21
restaurants serving samosas separately and so on and so
1:16:26
forth. So they are all I would say
1:16:29
experimentative and you will find your favorite set of Chutna
1:16:34
at home or at the bar. Yeah.
1:16:36
So just better to try. Keep trying, keep trying.
1:16:38
That's the game, Yeah. So.
1:16:39
So to me you know bajis vadas kebabs are the go to along with
1:16:48
masala, peanuts and roasted Papa.
1:16:50
There we go. Well, all that has made me very
1:16:53
well. Listen, do my thanks, guru.
1:16:55
Thank you very much. Thank you.
1:16:56
All the very best everyone. I hope you've enjoyed that over
1:16:58
in Bangalore, check out the check out the vlog.
1:17:01
If you want to see how whiskey is made in India, the bowl joint
1:17:03
distillery, have a look. It's mental.
1:17:05
I get my head in up. I get to stick my head in a
1:17:08
still and then there's no there's no safe spirit safe
1:17:11
padlocks. It's it's it's brilliant.
1:17:13
There's even wait till you see the cask filling system.
1:17:16
It's something not to be missed. Thank you very much for for for
1:17:19
coming along and well, for having us near Himanshu.
1:17:21
It's been absolutely brilliant. Thanks for the drams.
1:17:23
Thank you so much to Paul George.
1:17:25
Thanks to Asha, who put in a hell of a lot of work to make
1:17:27
all of them. She's been absolutely fantastic.
1:17:29
You be listening to the Whiskey Stories podcast over here in
1:17:31
Bangalore at the Paul Paul Hotel.
1:17:34
Slonge of our chairs Jai Ho. Jai Ho.
1:17:36
There we go. Brilliant.
1:17:37
Well done. Yeah.