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How Divorce Affects Children: What Parents Often Miss · The Smart Mom's Guide to Divorce

• Brooke: When I was going through my divorce, I worried about how it was affecting my kids. And I know a lot of you out there are worried about that too, especially if you're coming out of a toxic marriage. And when they're little, it's easy to think, well, they don't really understand what's happening. They probably aren't gonna remember this anyway. And as long as they're not hearing us fight, they'll be okay. Well, it turns out our assumptions are wrong, and there's research to prove it. This week I sat down with Megan Schmelzer, a social worker and behavioral therapist who now works with Zero to Three, a nonprofit that advocates for babies and toddlers' mental health. And she drops some truth bombs you're gonna want to hear. She explained how much our babies actually pick up on, even when we think we're keeping it from them, and how those early experiences can stay with them as they grow, even through adulthood. It was an eye-opener for sure. But don't worry, she also shares what we can start doing today to repair and reconnect with our kids in a way that helps them for the rest of their lives. And if your kids are older now like mine, it's not too late to make a difference. Welcome back to the Smart Mom's Guide to Divorce. I'm your host, Brooke Gaston. Let's dive in. Megan, thank you so much for joining me. I am really Meghan: Welcome, it's great to be here. Brooke: excited to dive into infant and early childhood mental health. Yes. Because there are so many misconceptions out there. And especially if you're struggling in your marriage or you're in the middle of a divorce or even coming out of a divorce, there's a lot of things that we as parents don't realize is impacting our children. So what exactly is infant mental health? And how does that relate to the divorce space in your eyes? Meghan: Absolutely. Thank you for this opportunity. you started with talking about misconceptions and there are lots of them. So I wanna highlight those as we talk through today. Infant mental health. First I start often in cocktail parties at volleyball tournaments to say, Did you know that babies have mental health? And so many parents, so many people look at me a little wide eyed and say, No, I never knew that. Tell me more. And so I think that's The biggest misconception to start with is that we as humans, right down to babies, have mental health. And infant and early childhood mental health specifically is the developing capacity of an infant, a child, in order to do three things. One, to form secure relationships with their caregivers, two, explore and experience a wide range range of emotions, all in order to explore and learn in their environments. That's how they grow, that's how we grow. So when we know about how to address and form attached and secure relationships with our babies, that allows them to experience emotions, a wide range of emotions, and then they can go explore and learn and grow. Brooke: So when you are in a difficult situation, like a a mom who is facing divorce, life is very uncertain, it's highly emotional, you feel like the walls are crumbling around you, right? You have, let's just say, a one-year-old at home. It's pretty common, I think. To assume that your child doesn't know what's going on and that they're not gonna remember this. Meghan: Yes. Brooke: Is that correct? Meghan: That is not correct, I have to say. And we're gonna talk about that because the point of sharing this information with you and your listeners today is not to have parents who are going through a divorce and have one year olds or infants or toddlers or even teenagers to say, no, I didn't know this information. Now I messed my kid up for life. The goal is to As your goal is to share with your listeners to educate, to increase their awareness so that they can make better informed decisions on how they show up and interact with their babies and toddlers and teenagers and grown children who pro who might be adults. And if there has been rupture at any point in that space, to be able to offer intentional repair in order to support the growth and resilience of both of you. So babies' mental health. Is inextricably tied to their adult caregivers' mental health. That could be moms, dads, primary caregivers, child care providers, grannies, aunties, grandparents, parents of friends, whoever is their who are their primary caregivers, they're experiencing the effects, babies are experiencing the effects of their caregivers' mental health. So for example, if a parent is exceedingly stressed or depressed or anxious, that baby is going to pick up on the energy in that room and be able not to s recognize, of course, that mom's depressed right now or mom's sad right now, but they feel that. And another very big misconception in our society is that babies won't remember or they'll grow out of it. And the reality is as that babies do remember They just remember in their bodies. We remember in our mind and in our brain. They remember in their bodies. And so what that means is that they, if they are pre-verbal, if they don't have words yet, or if they can't speak yet, they won't have the words. They won't be able to form the narrative about to make meaning of the situation. And as adults, as humans, that is one of our primary goals is to be in a situation and to make meaning of it. And so they are often left with a big sensation in their bodies that they don't know they can't name and they don't know what to do with it. So that is where the adults need to come in, step in, and be able to articulate that for them, reflect that back to them and teach those skills along the way. It starts with recognizing our own emotions and being able to name our own emotions. And I'll say society does a terrible job. At helping adults be able to have the space or permission to feel big feelings and name big feelings in service of knowing what to do with them next. And so one of the biggest things that I say to adults is working on your own emotional intelligence is one of the best things that you can do for your babies. Brooke: Hmm. Let's talk about the ways in which mother's mental health, right? A mom's mental health impacts their babies from the earliest stages. Meghan: Yes. So in this day and age, there are so many distractions that get in the way of forming a healthy, securely attached, attuned relationship to your baby. It can b be big feelings. It could be going through a divorce. It can be having a really stressful job. It can be daily stressors that we all have. And a very big one is our phones and technology. And Anything that gets in the way of attending to your baby can impact their development. So we are wired for connection. What that means is that our brains are innately born ready to receive messages and to respond to them. So there's something called serve and return. So I think many, many women many parents can have seen videos online or reels of brand new babies, even hours old, where you hold the baby in front of you and you stick out your tongue and baby sticks their tongue out back at you. It's a very sweet moment, but what that really shows is actually very profound in the fact that that baby who is hours old is not saying, I'm going to stick out my tongue because it makes my mom laugh. It is showing that there are automatic systems in your brain that respond to the faces in front of you. And one statistic that is has always stuck with me is between prenatal to three years old, over one million neural connections are made every single second. I'm just sit with that for a minute. Like a million brain cells are being connected. Every second between prenatal to five years old. And so what that says is that at no other point in development is there more opportunity for impact, healthy impact or unhealthy impact. So again, when we know the importance of the sensitive period of time, we can be more cued into the stimulus around. Our baby and our relationship with our baby and make better choices about either who's in that space with us or what stimulus are surrounding us in that space. And again, if your babies are no longer babies, perhaps this information can put in context behavior that you've seen over the years or conversations that you've had or arguments or more conflict that you've had. To be able to then go back and make that repair at some point and say, Life was really hard for you when you were 18 months old and dad and I got a divorce. And that's okay. That's okay that that we had we all had big feelings during that time. And now I'm going to make the steps to repair that in a way that can be healthy and healing for the both of us. Brooke: love to talk through some of those ways that we can repair because I'm thinking this wasn't related to my divorce, but I remember when I was pregnant with my first child, I was shooting a feature film. It was very stressful. I was getting three hours of sleep. And I remember being, I don't know, I was probably like six months, five or six months pregnant at the time. In the shower sobbing like I'm so sorry. And I thought he was gonna come out breathing fire because I was so stressed while he was, you know, this little bun in the oven, right? I mean, the only thing that you can really do in that point is try to get your stress under control, no matter what it's from, if it's from your job or if it's from conflict in your marriage or whatever the case is. But how how can we repair that when we don't really even understand the damage that it might be causing? Meghan: Sure. In a lot of different ways, in a lot of very little ways and some big ways. And it all depends on the age of your baby, no matter how old your baby is, the developmental stage that they're in, and the relationship that you have. And so again, if these big experiences happened in utero, or before they had words for it, you can put words to that and say, I was really stressed out when I was carrying you. And some of these things happened and name the different things. And I wonder what that was like for you. Of course, that's if you have a teenager at this point and you can have a conversation. but even infants and toddlers, people underestimate that just because babies cannot speak back to you, that they don't understand what you're talking about. And so the more You can name and narrate and give meaning to the experiences that they have, the better able, the older they get. They'll be able to make sense of it themselves and be able to integrate that into their own experience in healthy ways. And let me say the research shows that kids who don't have any or very little stress in their lives fare almost equally as badly as kids who have. extreme or chronic stress in their lives. Wow. And so right. So that's inherently hopeful that we don't need to bubble wrap our babies. And in fact doing so can all can create its own set of harms. But giving having them e have experiences of stress moderated by a an attuned and nurturing and consistent parent or caregiver, that is the piece that if we can understand, recognize, and again make different choices to be that attuned and consistent caregiver, that is what will help support resilience over time. Brooke: Hmm. There's a couple of things I want to unpack with that because the first thing is when you say that you name it with your child, right? How do you bring that up? How do you acknowledge that? And in what way so that you can repair that when, you know, when they're so little they don't remember. Meghan: They can't put words to it, yes, when they're little. But that remember that memory piece is locked in their bodies in different ways. And often we don't even see or know that. Well, if you know what to look for, and so some of the red flags, babies do show and tell us what they need often through crying, through seeking out comfort or not allowing comfort. through changes in their sleeping, changes in their eating, changes in their overall demeanor, changes in how they play or don't play. And again, all of those are so unique to that baby and that relationship that you as a primary caregiver are maybe the only one who understands the difference of and the shifting. And it's also extra tricky at that point in time. Because they are developing so quickly. And that is why often, if you go to a pediatrician and you say, I'm really worried about my 16 month old, these things are changing, or this seems off, or I just have this intuition. So many pediatricians will say, Well, just keep our eye on it. They'll grow out of it. Don't worry. The other piece, too, is that so many pediatricians have never been trained in infant in early childhood mental And the research shows that pediatricians are the number one source of trust. They are a trusted professional outside of the home. And so that's another one of those fallacies is that your pediatrician is gonna know everything. Now, don't get me wrong, I love pediatricians and they are such important professionals in life, but understanding that they themselves often have not been trained in this work is something important to keep in mind. In order to trust your own intuition. Because if you think that something is wrong or off, or there's we call them pink flags, maybe instead of red flags, it's not quite a red flag yet. Being able to advocate, and even if you don't get, even if you get, don't worry, they'll grow out of it, or they're too young to remember, you can advocate and say, No, I'm this is the situation that our family is in right now. And I understand now. that that will impact or has a tendency to impact their development, our relationship, I need some additional help and resources and to be able to seek those out. Brooke: Mm-hmm. Okay. So I also wanted to circle back on repair. you had said earlier that you name what's going on even to an infant who doesn't have language, Meghan: Yeah. Brooke: right? Meghan: Absolutely. Yeah. So say I got in a fight with my husband last night while the baby's sleeping upstairs. It's very easy to say, baby's sleeping. She didn't hear it. She didn't even if she did, she didn't know what was happening. But chances are that that energy was shifted, the volume, the tone, something was absorbed. By that baby, if not that night the next morning, if there's still tension in the air. Even saying things like, Good morning, baby. Daddy and I got in a fight last night, and you might have heard loud voices, and you might have heard my tone, or we were angry or frustrated. We are still here and we're gonna keep you safe. And today we're gonna try about it. Something probably most parents didn't haven't considered before. Brooke: Yeah, it it's like this is probably really bad analogy, but whenever I leave my dog home alone, I always tell my dog, I'm going to the grocery store. I will be home in an hour. And I have people around me saying, The dog doesn't know what the grocery store is. But it's just funny. That's where my mind goes because you're saying that you're having this conversation and telling Something to a child that you think, or we've been trained to think doesn't understand you. Meghan: Right. And it's just not true. And also it's the repetition and consistency. So every time you go to the grocery store, you say to your dog, probably in the same tone of voice, I'm going to the grocery store. I will be right back. And then you go, you you leave the home for X, you know, amount of time, and then you come back. And my sense is that you greet that dog when in the same way, in a very excited, I'm back, I missed you, here I am. And again, it might not be those exact words that they understand, but it's that sensation and that experience that they've had, that tone of voice. You left, you said this thing, you left, you came back, you said this other thing. That builds trust and consistency over time. And that trust then allows us or baby to feel confident and secure. And when you feel confident and secure, then you feel like you can go explore your environment. And that's when you grow and learn. If trust is eroded in so many ways, being scared, being stressed, being depressed, being anxious, being fearful, that constricts our ability to go out and explore and learn new things. I mean, the last time, think of the last time you were. so frustrated and angry you were about ready to explode. Would you have been able to learn a new math equation at that point in time? Brooke: No way. Meghan: No, because that's not how our brains work. When our we have this is simplifying it, but we have our logical brain and our emotional brain. And when our emotional switch is on, our logical switch is off. Brooke: Mm-hmm. Meghan: And so when that emotional switch is on, Due to any kind of big feeling, then we don't, we literally don't have the capacity to access the parts of our brain that help us be curious and explore and be brave to go and learn. And that's what is needed in order to grow. So in order to encourage those behaviors that we all want to grow and learn, we need to be able to moderate and recognize name. regulate our emotions so that we can access that part of our brain that lets us learn and grow. Brooke: Mm. Yeah. I actually say that in the divorce space a lot when your emotions are high, your decision making is low. And that's something that, you know, we evolved that way. That's the fight or flight. Like when you are just trying to get away from the lion, yep. You know, you don't need to analyze it or anything. You just need to get the hell out of there. Meghan: Yes, absolutely. And those that dose and that rush of endorphins was meant to help you escape. But we weren't we are not wired to be in escape mode all the time, or even the majority of the time. And so that's when things go off the rails is when we are in a more constant state of fear or trauma or alertness. Brooke: yeah. we definitely were not created to sustain that stress response for that long. And yet we do it all the time. Mm-hmm. You know, for our jobs and, you know, our families and in a way, if we don't get this under control, we're creating a pattern that our children may be repeating. Meghan: Absolutely. And chances are if you think if we think of our own ancestors, our own parents and our own grandparents, they were not taught these things. And that's often where those patterns began. Because they did the best they could. Whether they were traumatized coming home from war, or they were the the spouse they came home to who now had to figure out how to create a life with someone who was traumatized coming home from war. And people did the best they could and often came up with coping strategies that maybe sometimes worked, but maybe sometimes were unhealthy. And those patterns continue to repeat themselves. And that's where that awareness comes in because you cannot change a pattern that you don't know exists. Brooke: So a lot of people that I work with and even that I know don't even necessarily work with have this idea that it is healthier for children to stay in a home with both parents and therefore they will stay in unhappy marriages. I don't you know, I we could get into the weeds of where that came from. Meghan: Mm-hmm. Brooke: Yep. and I've talked about this on the podcast before with I believe Dr. Rachel Miller, where we were saying that it isn't divorce that impacts kids in a in a negative way, it's conflict. Right. So what can you say around that from what you know? And you know, again, I'm not pushing anybody. to divorce, but what are just some things that people need to consider in that regard? Meghan: Kids need, babies, toddlers need consistent, attuned, nurturing adults. And if you are an environment that does not allow you or your partner to be those things for your baby, then you may want to reconsider what are those influences and make different decisions about that. That can go in a number of directions, but looking at the research, that's what babies need to grow and learn and thrive. Brooke: Yeah. And it doesn't have to mean divorce. It could mean, going into therapy or like lots of different avenues. Meghan: Absolutely. And again, when you're talking about conflict and I'll I'll push back a little bit and say that not all conflict has to be bad or negative. There are absolutely situations where conflict can be healthy and positive. It's just a matter of how you enter into that situation and who you're having that conflict with. And so I I just want to push back a little bit on that one. so it's the negative, the traumatic, the toxic conflict that is negatively impacting or has a tendency to negative impact in impact these little ones. Divorce is a rupture. Conflict can be a rupture. And those happen. Again, it's how do you intentionally understand the impact of that and then make intentional repair? And that can look a million different ways, depending on who's involved, their developmental ages and Points in life, I will also say parents also development doesn't stop when you hit teenagers. Parents go through developmental stages as well. And that's something also to keep in mind when you're talking about the perinatal stage, or you're talking about when your babies are eight, nine years old. My baby, my baby baby is eight years old. And so I'm hitting a very different developmental point in my development, in my stage, which my needs are different now than they were eight years ago, than they were 10 years ago. And so those are also just important pieces of context to keep in mind when you're talking about what conflict and rupture look like in your relationship. Brooke: I also think about when you when you talk about really young infants and toddlers under the age of three, so zero to three, who are very much tied to their mothers. Meghan: Mm. Brooke: To the point that they cannot be separated from them for a long time without freaking out. Meghan: Mm-hmm. Brooke: And maybe perhaps it just gets easy, you know. maybe the dad's just like, Okay, you know, I I can't handle the crying, you do you take you know, like he wants you. And you get into that pattern of this child only feels comfort in its mother's presence. Yeah. But then you and Then enters divorce. And Meghan: Hmm. Brooke: now you're splitting time. And a mother might be freaking out because she knows that her child is so bonded to her that it is going to be traumatic for this child to now have to go spend time with their dad in another home. Sure. So when we talk about discomfort. Meghan: Mm-hmm. Brooke: What things should moms be focusing on just even in terms of that attachment? Meghan: Yeah. Brooke: Because you never, you know, sometimes you just don't know if your relationship is gonna make it or not. And so I mean, imagine that there are some things that moms and parents can do early on to mitigate some of that later. Cause I I can imagine that would probably be very terrifying for a child to be separated from its mother if it Really never was. Meghan: Absolutely. And my heart goes out to those families in those situations because imagining that your child needs you and you're not being able to be present for them is one of the most heart-wrenching experiences that you can have. Again, it goes back to functionality and behavior of that child. If if that child is able to be soothed by dad, even after about crying or yelling or tantruming in some way, then that tells us that even though mom has been primary, dad is still a caregiver figure for that child and can manage that those emotions and those things. If those are pro if there's prolonged behavior that's that child Isn't able to regulate themselves or co-regulate within a certain amount of time, you know, 15, 20 minutes or something like that. I'm just putting some time out there. or has significant changes in there. Again, eating, sleeping, play behavior, engagement, range of emotions, that's when you really should look to some additional therapeutic support to help negotiate that. Those separations, those reunions, those visitations, because that's a that can be a red flag. in that prolonged and without intervention could create more harm or developmental issues down the line. So much of that too is what does mom do with those really big, scary feelings in the absence of her child? And what support can she have to have help? Her regulate. So again, she's responding once either responding in a way where maybe she doesn't text dad 15 times or asks some inappropriate communications or whatever the situation is, and can be available to welcome that child home in a way that is again developmentally appropriate. And is recognizing the needs of that baby and not her needs. Brooke: And we struggle with that. Meghan: Absolutely. Because being separated from your child is a primal threat. And again, we were not meant to be separated in those very important timelines of development. Brooke: Mm-hmm. So getting ahead of it is that where we need to do a better job educating fathers, that they are equal co-parents and that, you know, yes, it is easy to just give the baby to the mom, Meghan: Mm-hmm. Brooke: but allowing that child to learn that they are still safe in their father's arms. Meghan: Absolutely. And then it looks different. And it's supposed to look different. And that's okay. And the way that dad comforts and regulates often looks very different than the way mom comforts and regulates. And research shows and common sense shows that often dads interact in more playful and aggressive ways. And That's okay because that is offering a child an experience that is different, but not in po better or worse in any way than how mom comforts. They are experiencing just a different way of interacting. And that's just as important. But I think the conversation about dads is another whole conversation to have, but finding ways to validate. And encourage the relationships between dads and babies from the very beginning, skin to skin from day one, is so critical in offering those opportunities to build trust and relationship with dad as much as mom or again, any caregiver. And those babies need trust and consistency and reliability and nurturing from whoever it comes from. If we all do that, then we can that will lead to healthier communities and societies overall. Brooke: Mm-hmm. Very simple concept. Can be somewhat difficult, especially if you are navigating divorce, you become a single mom, and now you are, you know, maybe the primary parent. you have a job, Meghan: Yeah. Brooke: you have laundry, you have dinner, you have three or four kids. Maybe I mean, doesn't even need to be, like even one can be difficult, right? Yes. But there are so many things that are on our plates. Meghan: Yeah. Brooke: And yes, we want to have a good connection with our children, but if they're in daycare because you know, we can't be around. And then when we get home, it's, you know, I'm doing this and I'm doing that and I'm trying to do all these things. So how how can how can people in that situation who are just very overwhelmed with life in general, Meghan: Yes. Brooke: still create that bond and be present with their child. Like what does it take? What do you what is the expectation that can make a difference? Meghan: So we have a saying in in infant mental health, infant early childhood mental health, that we're not looking for the perfect parent. We are looking for the good enough parent. And research shows us that good enough equates to roughly 60% of interactions with your child being healthy and positive. 60% is a failing grade in most academic institutions. And yet, we're looking for good enough in those situations. Because if you look over the arc of time and you look over the arc of the relationship that you have with your baby, toddler, teenager, adult child, there are so many opportunities that we can have if we are one aware of them and to make the intentional effort to be present for them. It can start with putting a reminder on your phone and then putting your phone away. Five minutes a day. Set a timer for five minutes and say, I will do nothing but be perfectly present with you. Whether if you are an infant and we're doing tummy time together, you are a toddler and we are rolling a ball back and forth to each other, you are a teenager and we are going to make dinner together, you can see where these interactions come from. Fill in what makes the most sense for your family. But it's being present and attuned. for those small increments of time. And the cool thing is, is if you start doing that, the serve and return experience doesn't just benefit babies. It benefits us as well. And so that will inherently be more fulfilling. And so you're going to be motivated to find more and more time to do that together. But start with five minutes. If you can't do five minutes, start with one minute. And sit down and look your baby in the eye, call them by their name, reflect anything that you can about the moment together and just be in that space. And then build from there. Brooke: I'm thinking about when you are going through a traumatic experience, especially in divorce. We're taught in a sense, maybe not officially, but this is I don't know, societally. Don't let your children see you cry. And Meghan: Hm, yeah. Brooke: I know for myself, when things are really rough, I would go up. Into my room, shut the door, go into my bathroom, shut that door, turn on the shower, and sit there, you know, just sobbing. Sure. Because I didn't want my children to see me cry. I have evolved since then. I do show my children emotion, but I think some people are afraid that we are going to scare our children by being emotional. So What can you say about that? is it important to in in some ways hide our emotions from our children or is it okay to be transparent with them? Do is there any research on that? Meghan: Yes, I would say showing emotions is one of the best ways to model that processing your emotions in healthy ways is a cornerstone of resilience. Provided that your emotions are not completely overwhelming to you. If you feel out of control, that is not the best time to model. Exactly. Brooke: Yeah, you don't want to be sobbing and but little tears. Meghan: Even like having a genuine emotional experience, one that you feel at least in control of. And again, it's narrating that and it's and it's making meaning of it. And if you're crying and your child walks in or your toddler crawls over or your toddler's toddling, but your baby crawls over to you and sees you crying, you say, Mommy's really sad right now. I'm I'm you can see me crying. You can hear my voice and you don't have to get into all the details of this is why mommy's crying necessarily and rehash all the the traumatic interactions that might have led up to that point. But you can say mommy's really sad right now and it's okay to be sad. And when mommy's sad, I take a drink of water and I give you a hug, and then I feel better. And then we can Let's go make dinner together, or something to that effect. But the idea is again naming emotions for yourself and your baby and reflecting again if your baby is experiencing emotions and your baby starts crying or your toddler starts crying, say, Yeah, it's okay to be sad. It doesn't feel great, but it's okay. And then offering that coping strategy of Well, the validation piece of it's okay. That's a really important piece, that validation for yourself and for your baby. Because again, how many times do our have we been taught if you fall down, you don't cry, you just you're fine, you're fine, you're fine, even though you're not fine. You're bleeding from the knee. Brooke: society really bad at that with our children. Meghan: Absolutely. Brooke: They get hit by a ball and you're just like, brush it off. It's okay. It doesn't hurt. It doesn't hurt. And you're dismissing them. Meghan: Hundred percent. And that is the beginning of invalidation of emotions. And that is a very slippery slope when you're talking about relationships and where emotions come into play with relationships and and what people come to expect in terms of relationships and emotions. That's probably a whole nother podcast, but but that validation piece is small and critical. I'm feeling really sad. It's okay to be sad. Than offering a coping strategy. When I feel really sad, I take a big deep breath, I take a bath, and now I'm feeling more calm, and now we can go and move on with our night. And so showing emotions of our kids is critical in if you can do it in a contained, healthy way. I'll also share it is equally, if not more important. To narrate the comfortable feelings as well. And to n name those as well, because I said from the very beginning, infant malhealth is about experiencing a range of emotions. And when you can experience a range of emotions, that will give you a much bigger palette to choose from. And to be able to describe those and move on is just inherently more integrating into your experience. Brooke: And when we talk about repair too and checking in with ourselves, how do we repair when the person that has harmed us or that we feel harmed by, you know, we feel harmed by isn't going to do that repair. And that doesn't necessarily have to be your spouse, but it could be a parent. It could be a sibling. It could be a a friend. It could stem from childhood, right? Like, you know, sometimes you can't get that repair from the person that impacted you. Meghan: That's one of the hardest things to do. It can be done. That that is really hard to do by yourself. in in a non-therapeutic space. It absolutely can be done. It requires a a whole lot of capacity for self-reflective awareness, self-cop self-reflective capacity and self-awareness. And being able to explore those big feelings that come up for you. When you think of the r that relationship, whatever those feelings are, in whatever way, and really sitting with them. And again, it sounds simple, but it is monumentally hard if you are talking about again generations of trauma, if you're talking about domestic violence, if you're talking about being victimized or oppressed in countless ways, being able to sit and feel in your body. where those feelings are. I work with professionals all the time and we talk about emotions and sometimes they'll they'll bring a situation to me and I'll say, What did it feel like to be in that space? And often it can be tricky for them to put an emotion word to it. And so I say, Okay, what comes up for you in your body? And where in your body do you feel that? And they can slow down. And pinpoint, that's in my chest. I say, okay, what describe the sensation. It feels heavy. And then I say, describe, does it have a color? And does it have a texture? Does it have a temperature? Some of these questions might sound a little crazy to people, but the practice of slowing down and really listening to your body and your experience of things. Within a few minutes, I'll be after going through that process, I'll say, Okay, can you add an emotional word to that? And they'll come up with three off the top of their head. Because that is a practice, again, our society does a terrible job of integrating our mind and body experience. And so when you can intentionally slow down and practice that integration piece of your physical sensations. Remember I said body babies don't remember in their mind, they remember in their bodies. Often there are sensations that have been locked away somewhere in our bodies. And if you can slow down and give attention to that, add emotion, emotional language to that, really describe and sit in that and honor that experience for yourself. Often, if not, I also don't like absolutes, but it's never failed me yet. If you go through that process, you will feel a shift. And often that shift leads you to more clarity. It will calm that emotional switch in your mind, turn that logical switch on, and you will be able to respond and make an intentional decision rather than reacting to something and often creating more issues to deal with. Brooke: I was I was gonna ask you too, why do why do people need resiliency? Why do people need to develop resiliency skills? Meghan: A good question because life is really hard, and resiliency is a response to any of those experiences that are hard. And it's the difference really between giving up in whatever that looks like for you, or being able to push through and grow from that. I can't recall if I said this here to you now or earlier, but When we're talking about repair in infant early childhood mental health, one of my favorite sayings is the growth is in the repair. The growth is in the repair, which assumes you need rupture in order to experience repair. So rupture is not the enemy. Divorce isn't necessarily the enemy. Conflict isn't necessarily the enemy. It is what you do with that. That will determine if you have a if you experience that in a in a really negative, unhealthy way, or if you use it to grow and learn and thrive. Brooke: Yeah, absolutely. I I tell my kids and I have it up on my inspiration board. Meghan: I was just thinking about that. Brooke: Where, you know, we grow the most from from the most difficult, you know, things that come into our lives, right? And bad experiences or things like that. And and if everything was wonderful all of the time, then we wouldn't be able to grow an experience. And sometimes it it does take reflection. I think back to, you know, before I got divorced and where I was and who I was as a person. And I look at myself now and think, gosh, I wouldn't be where I am today without that, you know, very traumatic and you know, devastating experience. But, you know, in a way I'm grateful for it. And that seems strange to say that. And I'm sure my kids might disagree with that, but you know, hopefully one day they'll understand. But But I I I think back to a lot of the challenges that I faced in my life and how grateful that I am for them. And it is it's a weird concept for some people to grasp that, you know, challenge can enrich your life in ways that you never imagined. Meghan: Absolutely. If you have the skills in order to meet that challenge in ways that feel healthy and that can spur growth. And again, coming all the way back, if you can help teach those skills to your kids when they are infants and toddlers, you are giving them lifelong skills. You're not only giving them the correct foundational brain architecture for that, but you were giving them the concrete skills in order to manage that. We cannot protect our kids from everything. And we shouldn't, because that's not realistic. But it's giving them the tools intentionally to be able to manage those experiences and to develop and grow into their optimal selves down the line, whatever that looks like for them. Brooke: Is there anything else that you would like viewers, moms, parents to know that we haven't touched on? Meghan: No matter what stage of life you are in, it is not too late to support your relationship with your baby. And caring for yourself and your own mental health is one of the best ways that you can support your baby and their health and their mental health. And validating and honoring the experiences that you yourself have gone through is one of the first ways that you will then be able to do that for your child, no matter how old your child is. Brooke: Hmm. And I would love to tack on that validating doesn't necessarily mean agreeing. So, like if Meghan: True. Brooke: if your child is sharing their experience, if they're of that age where they can share that experience and you don't necessarily agree with their perspective on it, you can still validate that. And I'm sure that that has just a a lot of benefits to just that validating piece. Meghan: Absolutely. You might not have a shared agreement on the facts of a situation, but you can always validate their emotional experience. And whatever the facts were, you can say, I bet that was really scary for you. I bet you were really hurt by that. I bet that was you felt really vulnerable in that situation. And I'm if it's depending on the situation, I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry that that happened. I'm really sorry that those choices in our life led that for you, led to that experience for you. I've been really sad and hurt too, and talking about it will hopefully help us both heal and grow together. Brooke: Yeah, and recognizing that as a parent, that our mental health isn't just for us, but it is for you know, for our children as well. And you know, i as we talked about well we have talked about multiple times, if you can't do it for yourself, maybe you'll do it for your kids. Meghan: Absolutely. I've worked with so many parents who would have never on their own sought out clinical therapeutic support. And they absolutely did it on behalf of their baby. And again, that can be a healing and growth opportunity for both. Brooke: So if moms and and parents are struggling and or maybe sense that there's some issues going on with their child, where is like the first place that you would send them for for that help? Meghan: well one, it depends on which state you're in. Because different states do offer different types of resources. I will say zero to three. My organization has many, many, many resources for parents and is very easy to find. there are lots of resources that are free. There are all kinds of apps these days. many states have something called Help Me Grow, which is a service that Helps offer screening and referrals and supports to additional services that are available in your area. There is PsychologyToday.com is a really great resource that I'm sure you can plug in your show notes if you haven't already that can identify clinical support by your ge by your geographic location. By insurance, by the specialties of the clinicians that you're looking for. So there's lots of resources out there. I would say listen to your instinct, listen to your gut. If you think something is wrong, then you can call your pediatrician. Maybe you have one that has been trained in infant mental health. I don't know. there are state associations of infant mental health. There are 36 states that have state associations of infant mental health that can be a a resource in a hub. So there is lots out there. And part of it is just not knowing. Again, if you don't know if that baby's had mental health, then you don't know that there's a field around to support you, then you're not gonna be able you're not gonna be looking for the resources that will lead you to those resources or to those services. Brooke: Yeah, absolutely. What a wonderful education they've Meghan: That you have Brooke: given us just so many wonderful, you know, things for us to consider as parents. I I think it's been incredibly helpful. So if parents want to learn more about zero to three and the work that they're doing, what is the best way for them to to get in touch with them? Meghan: You can go to zero to three dot org, z-e-r-o-t-o t-h r-e-e dot org. And again, we have many, many resources for parents and professionals and policymakers. And you can peruse the website, lots of free resources, trainings. I sit within the policy center and I'm on the infant early childhood mental health team. And I'm happy to share my email. you can put that in the contact notes if people have questions or want to reach out. And Please, if this has been an aha moment for you, as you said, or your listeners, talk to someone else about it because that's one of the best ways that we can grow awareness is simply by having conversations like this. Brooke: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think we are in an age where it makes that so much easier to to share share what we've learned. Don't keep it to yourself. Yeah. Megan, thank you so much. Yeah. Meghan: Absolutely. Yes, thank you. Brooke: Just so incredible. I I cannot wait for people to to listen to to all this. And I really hope that it makes a a difference in people's lives. On honestly, I don't know how it couldn't. Yeah. Meghan: Well, thank you for sharing the platform and being open minded and seeing the connection between the work that's being done and and the needs that your listeners have. Brooke: yeah. when I talked to you the first time I knew I have got Meghan: Like I Brooke: to get you on my podcast because people need to know this stuff. Meghan: Yeah, and I'll say this is my first podcast because I am a clinician. And again, we are not in the marketing world and often there is a gap between what we do and and the knowledge that folks have about it. So thank you for sharing your platform. Brooke: You're welcome. And I I feel like other people out there, they might be calling. Meghan: I'm here for it. Brooke: Yeah. Are you listening? Meghan: Great plug. Brooke: Alright, thank you. Yes. Meghan: Thank you. Brooke: If you got something out of today's conversation, it would mean so much to me if you just took a second to follow or subscribe wherever you're listening. It's free and it helps more moms like you find this new show. And if you're looking for resources, check out my free divorce guides designed to help you save money, reduce conflict, and regain some peace. If you'd like more personalized support, I'd love to work with you. Whether you're considering divorce in the middle of it or figuring out life afterward, I can help you understand your options and make a plan you feel good about so you don't stay stuck in fear mode. You'll find links to the guides and ways to work with me in the show notes. Join me next week for another honest conversation about navigating divorce and life beyond it, so we can make your next move a smart one.