Latest / B Shifter / Up Front with a Timless Tactical Truth

Transcript

Up Front with a Timless Tactical Truth · B Shifter

• 0:48
  Speaker 2: All right, welcome to the B-Shifter podcast.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: You've got John Vance, Chris Stewart, Josh Bloom here we are coming at you from Dallas.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: We are here for Fire Rescue International recording some podcasts.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: We love to record when we're on the road because we just get a lot of thoughts and time that we're sitting around having coffee and breakfast and maybe a beverage at night and we get all these ideas.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: So we wanted to talk and have a little info from Dallas this time around.
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: How are?
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: You guys doing today?
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: I'm good, I'm very good, happy to be here.
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: Catch up.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: I'm good, I'm very good, happy to be here, catch up network with some of our users and catch up with some people who are coming online.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: It's always good to hang out with all of the B-Shift staff.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, and Chris this is your first FRI.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: It's my first FRI and my first time to Dallas.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: We're recording like a quarter mile away from the grassy knoll.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: I think we could see the grassy knoll from our hotel.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: I mean we are that close.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: And I had no idea that we were that close until Josh pointed it out on the way in yesterday.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: I was like, wow, this is where it went down.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: We'll look at some of those sites.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: It's fairly significant for people our age.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, we're going to Gillies tonight too, so that's even better.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, if Deborah Winger from Urban Cowboys there, I'm just, you guys might have to give me some heart medicine or defibrillate me or something, because she was one of my favorites growing up.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a Lexapol that event tonight Lexapol hosted you know event.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: It's always good to go there and catch up and oftentimes get to hang out with some like-minded people.
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: People who are about risk and reducing it, but also getting the job done, which you could say.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: That's what we're all about here, so we're going to do a little something different for the podcast, we usually end with a timeless tactical truth.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Today we're going to begin with the timeless tactical truth and see where this conversation takes us.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: So let's go.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: Timeless tactical truth from Alan Brunicini All right.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Today's timeless tactical truth from AVB is don't ever confuse a hazard zone for an amusement park, and the chief used to talk about recreational firefighting and I think that kind of ties hand in hand.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: So let's take this one apart and decipher it and talk about when the hazard zone is mistaken for a recreational area such as an amusement park.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: Well, so the first thing I start thinking about, I guess, with this is what it isn't and it doesn't.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: And for us, it doesn't mean that we, when we're not going to do hard things, we're not going to be do legitimate work in the hazard zone.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: We're not going to hide under the bed when it's time to do serious things.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: But it has to be organized, it has to be managed.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: We have to be able to identify the things that typically hurt and or kill us, because if we don't and it does get us then we can't do our stinking job, we can't do the things that we showed up and we promised the community that we would actually do.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: So.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: Um, it's uh, um, yes, we should not treat it as recreational, a recreational activity, um, but it is.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: It's serious, we think it's very serious and we need to be actually good at it, and it has to be well managed and organized in that process by literal five, 10 minutes, sometimes without water on the fire, where there's a whole lot of other activity going on and a lot of it does seem recreational.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: So let's separate the recreational from true incident priorities that address the critical fire ground factors, and usually that involves getting water on the fire.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: But let's take that apart a little further.
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: So I think when we back everything up and we focus back on why are we going to this incident?
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: Because somebody is having the worst day of their life, some kind of a fire problem or emergency, we get there and we start with evaluating what is the problem.
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: And besides what is the problem, we look at what is keeping us from solving the problem.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: So you know we're the fire department, we got called to a fire.
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: Life safety is also a big deal.
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: So those two go hand in hand.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: You know oftentimes they're happening simultaneously.
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: You know we have one of our co-workers works for a large metropolitan fire department.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: Just last week sent us some more audio of an engine company stretching through the front door, within 15 feet of the front door, finds a victim.
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: Second company is right behind them.
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: They dragged the victim out.
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: The company right behind them took over their hand line.
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: It was all communicated, coordinated.
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: You know all of those things and you know they didn't know there was a victim there.
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: It didn't come out as a, you know, confirmed entrapment, none of that.
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: They were going to put the fire out and they were really conducting a primary search along the way, searching for the fire to put it out and searching for any victims that are in harm's way, on their way to the fire, and then they use the resources available behind them to support that or replace.
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: You know their position.
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: So the work that they were doing initially is is the work that happens, you know, is the priority, which you know fire and life safety, and then what has to be done to support that piece right.
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: So you know, sometimes, with the recreational piece, we see the first company as an example maybe wasn't successful reaching the seat of the fire.
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: Well, the second company does the exact same thing the first company did, and now we have two companies that weren't successful and the truck company is there and what we always do is we're going to ventilate on the other side of the fire.
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: So now I crash a sliding glass door in an apartment building with a center hallway that two engine companies stretched short on and I just made the incident worse right, because it wasn't coordinated.
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: I just made the incident worse, right, because it wasn't coordinated.
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: I just did what I wanted to do.
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: And meanwhile, you know, there's multiple other companies forcing every door in this whole place and that comes down to that recreational thing.
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: Just because you know how to do something doesn't mean that you should do it.
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: So it comes down to making decisions and really working towards what are the critical factors, what are the most important things that need to be solved, and then what sequential order are we going to work through?
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: You know, to solve them, which really just comes down to when we look at, you know, put the fire out and then the rescue part of it, something that we put out that was from the first edition of fire command.
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: We put it out like a month ago.
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: You know, those at the most risk and right down, right down that line of of as far as you know rescue goes.
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: But, you know, just doing whatever you want to do whenever you want to do, it isn't operating within a incident action plan because your action has a reaction than a incident action plan because your action has a reaction.
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: You know, on the fire ground.
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: So, um, uh, that that's some of that.
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: You know recreational activity.
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: It's like why, why were we doing that?
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: Like why, why did you cut every roll up door down this?
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: You know commercial.
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: You know building, when the fire was contained to the end unit, well, we had to get them open.
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: We had the check.
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: It's like, well, 13 doors away, you cut.
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: And you know, the truth is there's no incident action plan.
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: They had equipment to do it and they just did it, because that's what we do.
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: I ride on this truck or I have this piece of equipment and that's just what I do.
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: And you know the same thing I think comes with.
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: You know so many other, so many other things that we see happen on the fire ground.
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: Another big one for me is you know, you, you, you go to, uh, you tell a company check for extension on the second floor of a house and you got a seasoned company officer and you go up there and it's like, yeah, there's a little hole and they reported status change.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: We're coming out, there's no extension.
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: And you go up there after the incident and you see it and it's like, oh, okay, and the same exact incident.
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: You give an assignment and you go up there and there's not a lick of drywall left, but there's not a lick of fire or smoke that was ever even in the attic.
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: And it's like, what, what were we doing?
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: And you know, I hear it like we're the fire department, that's just what we do.
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: And it's like, no, that that's why we're not.
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: That's why we're sometimes seen as not professional, because we're doing more damage there.
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: They called us there to try to help and make it better and to stop the problem and what we've done has made it worse oftentimes, right?
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: So you know, sometimes I call it the jackassery, right?
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: And if you're in charge of the incident and you can take control of it, that's one thing.
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: But you show up on other incidents and you're not in charge of it and you're like what in the world is going on here?
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: And you see, because somebody arrived on a particular fire truck, you know they're.
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: They're doing things that line back up with their apparatus, whether it's cutting a bunch of doors, or we put up every ground ladder on 13 pieces of fire apparatus on a one story ranch house and it's like, well, good for you.
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: Do you think there was any priority in doing any other work?
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: And is there any need that we should have assigned more than four companies here?
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: Is there any need that we should have assigned more than four companies here?
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: So you know, we only should be doing the work that we need to do to solve and address the critical fire ground factors.
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: It's not a.
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: We send seven companies, so by golly, seven companies got to do work.
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: And the truth is, we all hate when we were, when we're company officers, we all hated that.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: You turn around, it's like what are you doing in here?
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: Like the kitchen was on fire in an 800-square-foot apartment and there's three companies in here.
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: It's like what are we doing?
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: And every time with that you could talk about incident action plan, like why was everybody in there?
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: It'd be like coming into this room with two companies, I mean, when you take all the furniture and everything that's in here, two people are going to put this fire out and search this whole thing in like 30 seconds.
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: And it's like, but it wouldn't be unheard of to have nine people in this space and everybody's bumping into each other and it's just because everybody wants to get some.
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: And it's like once people start to realize, like no, I really don't even want to be assigned because the fire part is over and anything that we're going to do now is really a waste, is what it comes down to.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: Well, what's the oath that doctors take to do no further harm?
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, that really should be what we're thinking about here and if we truly care about Mrs Smith and taking care of her possessions, we shouldn't do that as you're talking.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: I was the IC on a fire a million dollar plus home fire in a home theater in the basement.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: Someone broke the shower door on the second floor this giant, gigantic glass shower and I found out someone did it because from a mutual aid company, it wasn't my department, because it was just something fun to do and it's like you know, that's some.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of smoke damage.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: There was heat damage upstairs, absolutely no fire extension and absolutely no reason to be a jackass, as you say, and do that kind of stuff.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: And you know, just having that firsthand experience, you know I talked to that chief and I said you guys are not coming back to our fires anymore if this is what's going to happen and you could tell by those departments that don't.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: You know they're stuck 20 years ago.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: They haven't progressed.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you have any other examples of that.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: So I think recreational firefighting is I'm just showing up to do the fun stuff, right, whatever.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: Whatever we think, that is, whatever, that, that that paradigm, fun, front end work, the, the, the things that we most enjoy.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: And then the other side of it, it's the selfish view of firefighting.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: It's I'm just going to do what I think is important.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: And the one thing having a strong IC does and the one thing that having a strong incident command system does is it demands that there's actually an incident action plan and that the people that are participating in it agree that no, I'm going to fit into the plan.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: And if I'm there on the front end and we're doing whatever the fun stuff normally is, yeah, we're going to do it.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: We're going to do it really really well, but everybody else is going to play a supporting role in taking care of the rest of the things.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: And so there's a level of maturity, there's a level of trust and there's a level of agreement that, no, we're going to show up and we're going to do what's right for Mrs Smith.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: We're not going to show up and do what's right for us.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: And that's where it really really lays, because everything else is a selfish endeavor.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: And so, and if we want to talk about doing crazy shit, that's you know that doesn't fit into a risk management plan.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: That is, plan that flies in the face of some form of standard safety protocols.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: That's selfish shit.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: And then when those result in maydays, it causes the rest of us has to be selfish because we have to save your ass and not pay attention to what we actually showed up there to do.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: So it's a very interesting paradigm.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: It has everything to do Leadership, and having a strong incident command system and strong ICs really prevents it.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: You don't see really good ICs participating or building plans that have a center.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: Recreational firefighting is the center of their plan.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: That ain't it.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: It's oftentimes the IC has to manage the companies in doing that in the effective way.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so it just came to my mind as you're talking, chris.
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: We've had multiple conversations recently with some folks about just as just an example.
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: So it was a three-story apartment building.
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: Fire was in a sub level contained to the apartment and the truck got assigned to the roof.
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: The truck cuts a giant hole in the roof and when it was over they had a little hot wash and a few of the company officers asked did we what happened there?
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: Like what?
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: What did you guys see what?
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: What caused this to happen?
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: And you know it comes down to what the incident, what you said good incident commanders and the incident commander said uh, I have to be liked, so I have to let them do what they want to do.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: And you know we, I know you and I've, chris, have talked about that a bit and we know some organizations where that continues to be allowed to happen, because it's like I'm not sure as an IC how you feel, like you need to cater to the companies to let them do what they want to do.
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: Right, it goes back to we do what we need to do to solve the problem, all in the interest of making things better.
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: It's like well, wouldn't the assignment been if we're, if we hang our hat so much on life safety and all these other things, then you know, wouldn't the assignment have been like let's make sure that everybody's out of this space and then support the firefighting operation?
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: That's three levels below.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: Where, where we, where we cut, you know, half the roof off of this thing, and it's interesting in that in that in that instance there wasn't a lick of smoke came out of that and, even worse, they cut half the roof off of it, never punched through.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: And then somebody makes the comment well, we had a new guy, we wanted to get him some tool time.
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: And it's like well, what did that do to that place?
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: 16 apartments in that building, you just taught him to do something in the wrong time, right.
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: That's what you taught them to do, and we have an instance of a mayday where companies went to the roof, cut half the roof off.
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: A couple holes wasn't enough.
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: They weren't getting water on the fire.
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: A firefighter falls through and we got the video that shows everything else on the fire ground stopped, and we got.
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: We got the video that shows everything else on the fire ground stopped and this is no exaggeration 30 firemen outside the building are trying to save our own right and, as Grant Light says, and you alluded to Chris, that is the most selfish thing that we could do.
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: We were doing something that we wanted to do.
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: It resulted in a mayday which resulted in us not doing what we were actually called there to do, which resulted in a mayday which resulted in us not doing what we were actually called there to do, which is put the fire out and make sure that we do the best that we can and get anybody out of the space, and it's like.
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: You know, it's silliness.
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: So if you're an incident commander, company officer, whoever, and you allow that to, you know it's on you and shame on you If you take that approach of uh, they need, I need them to like me, so I have to let them do this.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to pull up to your house and cut the roof off of it Then that's just saying uh, uh, my insecurity is more important, me, taking care of my insecurity is more important, and the crews, uh, getting to do whatever the hell they want is more important than taking care of the community.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: That couldn't be more misaligned for what professionals actually need to be able to do.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: I was just thinking, if a mayor or a city manager tuned into this podcast and heard what we were talking about right now, it would be, eye-opening that this occurs to lay people and the other people that we work for.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: So you got to think of that from that perspective too, that we are there to do no further harm.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: So going back to the original incident, Josh, where the company comes in, they stretch short in that auto assignment where we just keep doing the same thing over and over again because it's auto assigned.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: How would that scenario go with Blue Cart using the system?
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: If the first company did what they do right and it's a big, very large apartment building, it's a big, very large apartment building and the first company stretched short Then in our system it would have been priority traffic, right.
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: So priority traffic.
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: We stretched short.
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: We cannot make it to the fire floor.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: We need to find, in this instance, maybe another entrance or whatever.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: But the model of the second company backs up the first company and the whole theory of you know larger line, longer line, all of that.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: That all sounds fine and dandy until you, the first company, doesn't report how much line they got on the ground, or you know what line they stretched, or you know whatever.
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: So you know a lot of these places it says that but you know every single time it's another line of the same size, which in today's world, in my opinion, just makes perfect sense Because with the attack packages that we can build with technology, with hose and nozzles and all of that, you know two people can maneuver a line and get a shitload of water.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: You know going way better than any three or four are going to stretch.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: You know two and a half, and I'm not going to get into the task level thing and go down that path.
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: But, uh, if the first company would have just said, hey, we stretched short, that would have triggered that second company to do maybe something a little bit different.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: But when nobody reports that we're not completing the task or that something is different than what we originally thought, uh, than everybody else in this, in that, in that, in that case, you know, just did what they would normally do.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: And that's one of those problems where it comes down to uh, there's only one incident action plan.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: The incident action plan is the first company laser water supply stretches, stretches a hand line.
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: The second company lays a water supply, stretches a backup line.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: The third company supports the second company.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: The fourth company supports the fire department, whatever.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: The fifth company is the safety engine.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: The first truck splits and, does you know, two of them go to the roof and two of them do search.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: Oh, the second truck.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: Two of them go to the roof and two of them do search, oh, the second truck.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: Two of them go to the roof, two of them, whatever that looks like.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: Well, when the first company doesn't do what they're supposed to do, then that whole plan is off and that model looks perfect, maybe for the scenario that that actual deployment fits.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: But in reality, how many instances do you use five engines and two trucks right now and they just do some standard set of things right.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: You could probably come up with a handful of instances where that would probably play out and work.
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: But if there's any one thing, there's a victim in the hallway that they find that changes it.
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: The fire's out of the apartment and now it's in the hallway.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: The fire's out of a window and it's also going to the second floor.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: The first hydrant's dead.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: I mean, any number of different factors play into.
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: I got a dirty hallway that there's already smoke into and now I'm in a flow path or the door's still closed.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: I mean, all of those things are the factors that we have to consider and evaluate, which takes it back to why we have one incident commander with one incident action plan and then in our system, that first new company officer gives assignments based off of all the information that they knew and what they need to support them in completing those initial objectives and addressing the first, you know two or three critical factors that they identify at the incident and then you know setting it all up and communicating it so a strategic IC can arrive to the incident and have a fluid transfer of command.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: You know, not lose and keep accountability, checking off what objectives have been completed and then what those companies need to continue their operation.
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: So I mean that that that's how.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: That's how it can go different right, as far as if you can't do it or you're not doing it or something is different, then you have to, you need.
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: There's no ands and buts.
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: You have to communicate that, whether you need more support.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: You know you found a victim along the way you stretch short, you got a firefighter that's lost you.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: This fire's bigger than I thought.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: I can't even make the hallway.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: It looked like it was on the third floor but apparently it started on the second.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: I mean, all of those things are all different factors, right, and so therefore it has to be communicated so that we all go back to one incident action plan.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: Otherwise, if everybody's just doing their little part of it, it's not an assembly line that never changes.
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: The fire is very dynamic, the incident is very dynamic, it's forever changing, it's either getting better or worse.
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: So we have to be dynamic also and give assignments, again based off the critical fire ground factors that we're facing at this very moment, this very moment, and we do that through using the strategic decision-making model, which is a which is an ongoing, literally, uh, every almost every second, right, that thing is ongoing.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: The conditions are changing, right, I'm putting, I get water on the fire Well, that changed it.
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: I found a victim?
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: Well, that changed it.
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: The, the, the hydrant's dead Well, that changed it.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: The second due engines two minutes delayed Well, that changed it.
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: The second due engine's two minutes delayed Well, that changed it.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: The strategic IC is hung by a train Well, that, I mean everything changes it, right?
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: So if you're working in that system of everybody just does what they do, then you don't have a plan B.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: And when there's no plan B and it doesn't go like, like, like that particular little piece of setup to go, then you're an oh shit mode, right, cause what happens is we keep reinforcing plan a.
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: One Engine one couldn't do it, so we're going to have engine two do it.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: Well, they couldn't do it.
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: Well, engine three is going to do it.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: We put it out because we send 75 people to the incident and we can keep throwing people at it and it's like, well, you're just creating a bigger problem, right, and you know, I want to put it out there just so that organizations know.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: Sometimes we hear the blue card is designed or was built around the Phoenix Fire Department or on the flip side of it, we hear a blue card doesn't work and there's no big organizations that use blue card and it's like you know, if you want to talk about that, I'd be more than willing to talk to you about it.
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: But you can just go to B shiftercom and look at our map and see, you know what organizations all across you know the world are using blue card and you, uh, you know Las Vegas large organization.
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: Cobb County large organization, actually the almost most all of the entire Atlanta metro area large organization.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: San Antonio, texas large organization, right, so, uh, the system for firefighting, you know, is pretty much the same everywhere.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: Are the buildings different?
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: If I'm in Massachusetts and I got a wood frame four-decker, as they say, is that different?
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but I just look at those critical factors and evaluate it differently than I'm looking at a house that's in Phoenix, arizona, that's got four palm trees and it's December and they're swimming in their swimming pool.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: I still started to critical factors, right, and the people who work in that area understand, you know those building construction, you know types and so on as far as what factors, what those factors really mean there.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: And I'll go back to the EMS thing, because we seem to grasp onto that and we'll hammer somebody's ass on the you screwed up an ems run and we're going to red pen the shit out of the cms report.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: And you know, in our area sometimes they'll go as far as it's a joke, like if you screw on the ems run though they might take you off the ambulance, it's like, well, shit, that's okay stand by.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: No more ivs will be started on chest yeah, whatever right, but we do that because there's a standard right.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: There's a national standard of paramedicine.
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: Does the West Coast do things?
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: Maybe a little bit more forward thinking sometimes than something in the Midwest?
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, are there?
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: Things come out of all kinds of different areas.
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: That's a little different, yeah, but the basis of all of it is the same right and it's because it's the oversight of that is professionals, it's doctors, that's who you're actually working.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: You're actually working under somebody's license, right, they're going to be held accountable for you yeah, so I mean the fire thing.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: My example of that is right, it's a little different, but it's not in the EMS world, it's a.
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: It's a little different what they do.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: They give blood, they don't get.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: Well, you know all those little things, but you know the cardiac piece of it is pretty much so the same everywhere.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: Maybe they're doing something that's a little bit more forward thinking, one place or another with electrical, you know therapy, whatever, but the basis of it is the same.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: Well, firefighting is no different.
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: If I go to, if you're going to, a chief flasher at the worcester fire department goes to wood frame, four decker balloon frame, modified a hundred times.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: Buildings well, he knows the building type, he knows how they're laid out, he knows these things are cut up.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: You know he knows that fire in the basement is going to go to the attic space.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: He knows he's got to get on every single floor pipe chases, all of that stuff, right, well, but still, evaluating the critical factors, piece building, fire, life, safety, all of the things we talk about that are critical factors, no different than you pull up at this hotel and it's a 40-story hotel.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: Well, that 40-story hotel surely isn't a one-story 2,000-square-foot Slaya Branch home.
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: So you have to evaluate the factors.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: What actually is going on?
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: What are we going to do to solve the problem?
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: What's standing in the way of us solving the problem?
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: So again it comes down to one incident commander and incident action plan and making decisions and truly being making this a profession.
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: Not we're going to make our deployment model fit what the problem is, because that that does not work.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: So I think you said some important things with regards to when is an SOP or standard assignment driven system successful?
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: And I see it in two forms.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: I see number one.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: We show up in a lot of systems, you can show up with a lot of resources and you can bully anything out right.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: You put enough people on it, enough water, things happening simultaneously with companies.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Then you bully it out.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: And then the other times, as you alluded to, it was the accidental success.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: It went okay.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: We're not really sure why.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: We can't really put our finger on it.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: So let's just do it again, right.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: And so in my experience, you can't train luck, you'll use it, you'll take it on the front end connects it with the risk management.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Why should we be doing what we're doing?
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: There's only two reasons on the fire ground it's savable lives or savable property.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: There's no other reason, right?
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: There's no political risk in our system really there shouldn't be anyway and there's no other.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: You know that interpersonal risk that shouldn't matter at all.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: So we're connecting that to our strategy.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: So where are we going to work from?
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: And then what the hell are we going to do?
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: That makes sense.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: So we have to evaluate that every single time for what's going on right then and there to be able to effectively do the right thing.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: And then, as variables pop up or as changes pop up, we adjust the plan utilizing the same process over and over in this looped manner.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: So it takes into account all the variables.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: You get variables that you've never seen into account, all the variables.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: You get variables that you've never seen that are you know you had no idea were going to pop up.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, that shows up, let's make an adjustment.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it's a big adjustment in strategy and we're getting out, or all right, let's put other resources or other companies in different positions to be able to better manage that problem, whether it's a life safety problem, it's a fire control problem or what have you.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: So that adaptability and that flexibility of a standardized system is way more effective than like, as my old fire chief and our old boss would say, doing the wrong thing harder.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: It never freaking works, ever once.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Or there's a department that I've been working with.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: It's a blue card department and some of their younger firefighters want to know why they just can't go to work and they staff with six people out of two stations, so three per station covering over 70,000 people.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: They go to fires and they just want to auto deploy.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: So we've had a lot of discussions with that.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: What would you say to that person?
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: And they've been heavily influenced by regional tactics that aren't from our region.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: Let me just say that.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: So what would you say to somebody who is at a small fire department and they just want to auto deploy because they don't have time to size up and transmit that incident action plan.
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: Everybody wants to be or seems like everybody wants to be big brother, whatever that means to them, right?
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: So whoever they look up to, so I'll just I'm just going to look, just say you know, everybody wants to be the FDNY, right?
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: So whoever they look up to, so I'll just I'm just going to look, just say you know, everybody wants to be the FDNY, right, and there ain't nobody that's the FDNY, but the FDNY.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: There's only one place that gets to do that.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: Right, and you know, so many of our colleagues you know talk about how they make that work and how why it works.
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: Right, and one of my best friends is a Lieutenant on a very busy truck company there and you know, when he talks about their operation he's like no, I I'm pulling out with six people on my truck and the engine is like right there with me and if I pull up on an incident and the engine's already out.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: You know, I do things and we're going to do things a little different and there's other considerations for that.
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: But you know, when you're sending the amount of resource that those organizations send in the time that they're sending them in order of arrival, you can do some of those things right.
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: But when John Vance has one assignment and if that assignment doesn't have to be done, john Vance might not do anything on this incident Things look a little bit different, right.
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: So I mean, if you're riding in a specific seat, this is your only job, that is the only thing you're going to do, right?
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: And if that job doesn't have to happen, then it doesn't happen and we could make an example of how successful they are pulling off these roof, rope, rescue things, right, I mean there's clearly a focus on that.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: Somebody's got a job to do that.
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: They're going to do that, they're going there, they're going to the roof, no matter what, but they also have.
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: I'm just going to say, whatever the number is, 75 people that all of them have what their job is Right and it's not switched around.
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: And you're not riding the medic unit today and that tomorrow.
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: You know you ride in this seat and you learn that seat and you understand that piece of it Right.
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: So the how piece and deployment at the task level is fantastic.
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: He's like picking these things up, right.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: So I tell young guys all the time you need to grasp onto the people who grasp onto the guy who rides the iron spot in a busy fire company that gets out of forced doors and how much, how little, how little they take with them and like how they really make it work in the real world.
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: And make sure you ask them the question of when.
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: But when do you do this?
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: And maybe why do you do it?
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: Because you know a young kid the 18 year old kid or 19 year old kid or 20 year old kid sees the video or goes and hears how well, this is how.
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: Here's some tips and tricks, and then they think that they need to do that at every single incident and it's like no, they, they gave you a screwdriver, kid, but that's a bolt that's got a hex nut on it.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: It ain't gonna work.
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: So don't keep trying to beat yourself up, don't keep trying to go harder at it to make this thing work.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: That's not.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: That's's not going to work, right?
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: So, uh, with that said, you know I talked about two things, not one the number of resource and to the timing of the resource and and there, the entire model, like what does that really look like?
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: And I, and I said, you know, there's only one place, that's, there's only one FDNY in the United and and the way that that looks and how that goes.
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: And you know, when it comes to command stuff, people are like why don't they do?
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: Why don't they do command?
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: Why don't they do blue card command?
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: Why don't they do this?
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: Why don't they do that?
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: And you know I talk all the time to our colleagues about that and I'm like have you seen a working fire incident in that city before?
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: Because they're like why do they stand in the street?
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: Because the incident commander can stand there could can stand in the street because they're thinking like big picture.
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: But they got a driver and then they got you know an entire, you know a command staff, basically that's surrounding and supporting them at the command post.
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: Right, I mean, you, if you see a good incident, a good working incident, I shouldn't say good.
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: If you see a good incident, a good working incident, I shouldn't say good working.
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: If you see a working incident and the FDNY and they got you know the command post set up in the street.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: You got six to nine people helping them out.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: Sometimes 15 or 20, right, people?
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: I mean right, six, nine, 15.
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: There's as many people there as suburban fire departments are sent into a working fire initially.
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: Right, assisting the IC, assisting the IC, all support.
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: Like listening to the radio, right, no-transcript, your only job is to communicate on the radio, your only job is to track on, you know whatever.
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: And it's like well, that's a different, it's a different system, right?
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: So when you've got a response model of I send 21 people to a house fire, they get there in 17 minutes.
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: Well, you're not the FDNY, I mean.
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: So you can't act like that.
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: So I'm just using that as an example of, like big brother, because everybody kind of knows the FDNY thing and I don't know the insides and outs of it, but I, I mean I've talked to people who work there every day.
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: Probably you know somebody that's a colleague of mine, or you know one of my best friends, whatever, and you know we hear people trying to do that, or I see somebody's SOP that's like this a hundred percent.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: You know, driven deployment.
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: This guy's riding the OV.
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: I'm like that kid you got riding on that ladder truck today, is 18 years old and ain't been to a fire yet and you're giving this assignment to make a.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: Basically, what they're going to do is they're going to go to the Charlie side and they're going to throw that ladder and they're going to break a window and they're going to create a whole problem for you because they don't know when to do it, how to do it, why to do it, but they're just going to do everything they can to do that.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: And it's like that doesn't make it, doesn't work, it doesn't make any sense, right?
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: It brings me right back to the whole thing of blue card and the eight functions of command.
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: Command function one is deployment and you can only do what you can do with the resources that you have.
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: And you know the reality is, we know that a giant majority of the american fire service is short-staffed period.
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: I mean you say four-person staffing and people are like what, like that ain't happening.
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: You say three-person staffing, they're like yeah, we got it sometimes.
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: And you know, two-person staffing is I mean it's a real thing, right?
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: Or two people on the engine and two people on the medic, and if the medic's not out, they jump on the engine.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: You know, whatever, I mean that's a real thing.
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: And then when we start talking about command staff roles.
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: I mean I don't know what the number is, it's way, way under 1% of strategic ICs have drivers in the United States.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: I mean it's a.
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: I almost feel like you could count on two hands.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: Maybe it's probably more than that, but so the strategic IC has got a big role to fill.
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: So it's like, well, they can't, you can't, do more with less.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: So that deployment piece of how many, how many, how many people are you getting there to manage the event?
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: Right, we're, we're, we should be, and I, I'm all about four person staffing and we, you know, kind of push that direction.
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: But if we're going to send the people there, we need to send the people there to manage the event.
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: Also, right, manage the incident action plan.
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: So I don't like saying manage the people that are there, I like saying manage the incident action plan.
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: Right, because the people just fit into the incident action plan.
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: My incident action plan is this I need these three, I need three companies.
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: So I got these three companies.
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: I can, I can, I can plug them into my incident action plan and so that I mean it's a reality, right, if you want to, if you want to know the truth, look in the mirror and say what do I really have and what can I really do?
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: And if you're, you're protecting the population of 70,000 people.
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: You got six people on duty and you're getting, you know, 15 people and 14 minutes.
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: You, you, you better focus on put the fire out and you can search along the way and then, once you put the fire out, you can do other things, but you better focus on putting the fire out.
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: Now is there some times, a small amount of times, when you might have to do something different depending on fire conditions yeah, but it comes back to command function one deployment.
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: We better look hard at ourself of what does our deployment look like?
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: And then what does our incident action plan kind of look like, based off the resources that we would have available?
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: But what?
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: What everybody wants to talk about is just the task level.
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: I just want to get there and go to work.
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: Well, you're only thinking about the task level, right?
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: So football season just started and if they don't have an incident action plan, you're going to get your ass whipped, right.
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: They went on the incident action plan, I mean, and then they went on the task level, right.
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: Every one of them players that are out there are the best that that team could get to put on the field that day.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: Right, and it only works when they're all on the same incident action plan.
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: And we, I mean, we get to see it every year, we get to see it in baseball, we get to see it in football, we get to see it in every sport out there.
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: Right, that they pull off some planned, that they pull off some planned event.
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: And it's like I think the Super Bowl maybe the last three or four years has been won in the last seconds.
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: Well, at least the game.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: In the fourth quarter.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, without a doubt.
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: And the games leading into the Super Bowl, and it's some sort of planned event, some super secret play planned event.
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: But they practice the shit out of that planned thing, right.
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: They don't go out there and say first play of the game, because it's going to be fun, we're going to pull, we're going to try to pull some whiz bang shit on somebody.
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: Now they go out there and they have a plan like what is this going to look like?
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: Let's figure out what are our critical factors.
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: What am I up against today?
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: And that's what it looks like, right, and I always you guys hear me always talk about linking it back to sports, because it seems like people can connect to that and nobody wants to talk about EMS.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: But I link it to that because it seems like we can kind of wrap our hand around, that.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: It's a system, right, and all of this comes back to a incident action plan and you can do all the task level stuff.
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: So I would tell those young kids hey, be really good at all the task level stuff, be, be the best at all the task level stuff, but you only apply that when you need to apply it.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: There are tools in your toolbox that are going to be called upon but not applied every time, just because you have the skill or the knowledge on how to do it Right.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: So this is the only system I've ever worked in ever, I don't.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: I don't have another perspective, quite honestly, but I can say that I, uh, I can't ever remember, um, the work being slowed down because the initial arriving officer had to give initial radio report, because that was their role.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: The firefighter's role was to do something else and to initiate that task level stuff and we started happening.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: It all started happening simultaneously.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: It wasn't slowed down.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: Now, when you start getting subsequent arriving companies that are going to level one, yeah, it feels like you're going slower because I've got to wait for an assignment.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: No, you've got to wait for the IC to figure out the best position for you in their plan and it's not coming in and going to work or what you think is going to work.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: That's not part of the plan.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, it's got to be coordinated and I have found that the more effective and coordinated you are, the more efficient the action actually is on the fire ground.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: We're not doing a bunch of frenetic stuff simultaneously that likely isn't solving the problem and we have to compensate that for that and the overall length of the incident lasts longer because we weren't coordinated.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: So if we're doing what's best for the community or them, then we need to show up with some level of agreement that we're going to do it in an organized manner and we're not going to step on the neck of the initial arriving IC because we feel like we got to get in there, I've got to get to work.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: Well, get to work doing what you don't even know what the problem is right.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: So let's get to work on what really the problem is.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: So you arrive, let's I have one more question before we wrap.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: You arrive, you're IC2, and what has gone on before your arrival is recreational firefighting.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: It's a goat rodeo, however you want to define that.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: How do you then and we all know coming because I came from a system that IC number two usually had their act together, but we didn't train our company officers to be a good IC number one years ago so say, somebody gets there, it turns into this goat rodeo.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: What do you do as IC number two then to gain that situation back in your favor and start doing the right things?
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: Number one.
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: When you're rolling down the street and you're looking at what's going on and you're hearing what's going on, the first thing is if you need to change a strategy because it's that bad, because we're offensive during defensive fire conditions, then you do that right now.
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: And then the second part of it is if you don't know the position and function or the work that is happening doesn't align with the critical factors, then you start addressing that company by company, right, so you know if it's that disorganized, you know your command transfer is probably not going to be much information, right, you're going to probably put out some information of what you believe maybe is happening.
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: You're going to probably put out some information of what you believe maybe is happening.
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: But the strategic IC tracks position and function of what's going on on the fire ground and then that position and function needs to match the conditions that they're seeing.
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: So if you have to do that, it almost comes down to company by company fixing the assignments to get them back to where they need to be.
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: But most importantly, you know, the strategic IC makes sure we're operating in the correct strategy.
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: So if you have to change that because it's like, yeah, we're, we're throwing a whole lot of shit at something.
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: We're doing it harder with more people, but it ain't working.
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: And that's the biggest piece that has the biggest impact on our life safety.
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: If we're not going to fix this, then change in strategy and if it seems like their conditions and the positions kind of match but the work doesn't match, then you can fix that company by company.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the system is designed to help IC number two yeah, the system is designed to help IC number two Number one effectively communicate and determine whether you actually have accountability, position and function for all your companies and evaluate Are we in the right strategy right now for the given conditions and critical factors that I see arriving as I see number two.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: So, like the system set up beautifully to recognize whether we do have some level of form or some form of accountability for everybody working on the fire ground and that we're working in the right position, so utilize that process and then, if something is out of balance, fix it.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: If the accountability is out of balance and we don't know where people are and we don't know what they're doing, fix it.
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: If the strategy is out of balance or our position is out of balance, for whatever the given strategy is, fix it.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: Get them in the right position based on those conditions, and if it's getting them out of the building and resetting, then do it Right.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: And so use that system to to fix what's going on and then, once you fix it, then move forward.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: But if you try and move forward before you fix anything, you're going to make either one of those problems worse and you're going to end up with mayday, mayday, mayday, or you're going to end up with a catastrophic event with the building that results in way worse conditions than what you have right now.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: So it's utilizing the system for what it's actually designed to do in its simplest form, and that is your role as IC number two.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: So don't ever confuse the hazard zone with an amusement park or goat rodeo or however else you want to define that.
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: We're there for a purpose and let's define those purposes and be effective and do no further harm.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: Thanks for the discussion today.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: Guys really appreciate you being here and thanks everyone for listening to the b shifter podcast podcast.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: Thank you.