Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 882: Cyanide Bombs, New CWD Research, and F%ck Data Centers

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Ep. 882: Cyanide Bombs, New CWD Research, and F%ck Data Centers · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the news show Mother Lakers. This week, we've
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: got some research about CWD that I really need to
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: hear about the debate about bear spray versus pistols as
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: bear defense rages on. Are the cyanide bombs you've been
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: hearing all about actually bombs. Wolves in the Greater Yellowstone
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: area are getting whittled away in numbers by hunters, no trappers. No,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: but don't worry. We'll tell you what it is later
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: on in the show. The Alaskan Arctic might be getting
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: itself a data center, which I generally kind of hate
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: the idea of generally, and Spencer number one for a
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: controversial subject has another softball, yet uplifting story about fishing records.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: But first, that's good.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm not looking around for what I'm saying, like,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: but first you're waiting for jump in first our news Yeah, Steve, Well, no,
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: I'm up. Yeah.
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: My daughter got her first black bear.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Nice.
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: She's a very competitive hunter.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Is not interested in uh, doesn't like it's not interested
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: in any kind of duck hunting nothing. It's gotta be
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: a turkey or bigger. It's gotta be where you set
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: your mind on getting a thing. There's gotta be a
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: question of whether you'll get it, like going duck hunt
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: and be like, man, it's gonna be a lot of ducks.
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: Could doesn't care, doesn't care. She's into the.
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: Like.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: She's into the like can it be done kind of
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: hunting and you have to be cruising all around. She's
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: not gonna sit somewhere. Doesn't want to sit nowhere. It
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: lends itself well to you.
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: Know, she wouldn't. She won't sit in glass during Oh
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: no like that.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: But she's if you said, hey, herd to go sit
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: in the tree stand for a long time, that's not
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: what she wants to do. She likes to be mobile,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: well Shakespeare, looking around on the ground for rocks and whatnot.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: But got so we had four we had kind of
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: like four full days to hunt bears, and then we
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: had a day that we could kind of hunt a
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: little bit if need be.
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: And by the end of the third day, she was
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: getting real antsy.
• 2:23
  Speaker 5: Because you weren't seeing bears, or you weren't seeing like
• 2:25
  Speaker 5: nice bears.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean she's not listening. She'll listen to the
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: show a little slow to the trigger.
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that happens.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: So it's kind of a.
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: Hard thing to get over when you're a parent man.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: And yeah, real slow to not a little slow to
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: the trigger because he can't get mad at it. Bless
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: her heart, no shoes, she't mad at my boys. I'll
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: get mad at my daughter. I might get mad at
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: her now and then, but I'm like way nicer to
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: hurt than anybody else. Yeah, Like I would be my boys,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: I'd be smacking on the side of the head, back
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: of my hand shoo. But no her. I'm like, God's okay.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: So when you're ready, when you're ready, sweetie. So like
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: one time we went after a bear and uh, and
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: it's just sitting there plain as day, you know, and
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: it's facing toward us, and you know you.
• 3:13
  Speaker 5: Had gotten out of it, like you were in the
• 3:14
  Speaker 5: process of trying to kill it.
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: You were out of the boat.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: We got out of the boat way few hundred yards down.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: When worked up, I'm like, once we get to that
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: there's sort of a tree laying there. Like, once we
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: get to that tree, we get to the tree, get
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: her set up on the tripod, it's just sitting there. Meanwhile,
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: I would have put a box of shells into it.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: But it's like, but you know what I mean, it's
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: just different. And then I talked all about like she
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: likes to run through all weeks leading up to going hunting.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: She likes to run through all things that would go bad,
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: and then before she shoots, she likes to do a
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: final run through of all the things that could go back,
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Like what do I do if? Yeah, like what if
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: the I'm like just at a point where there's an
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: element of this that is a roll of the dice.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: As much as we try to rule all that out,
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: there's an element to it that there's a dice roll, right,
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: and we try to weight the dice and all that,
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: but like there's a dice roll, and she doesn't like
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: the dice roll part. She wants to be when she
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: touches that trigger. She wants it to be that it's
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: like God strikes it with a bullet that's not up there.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: She wants it to go.
• 4:29
  Speaker 5: Up there because like, if you wound one, you're done
• 4:31
  Speaker 5: up there, correct.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: That's right, So and this reason will ask if you
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: nick one, you scratch your tag, so that and if
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: they get when they go into the rainforest, it's difficult
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: stick anyway. She likes to do a quick run through
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: of all possible scenarios that could go wrong, and then
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: we kept talking about like broadside, broadside, broadside, and it's
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: not broadside, and do I really want to like open
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: up this whole can of worms and introduced the idea
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: that one could feasibly, you know, and it's just not
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: the moment for it, not the moment to be like,
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: you know, I hadn't mentioned this, but in a scenario
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: like this, I could see a pathway toward anyways, it
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: went from facing us just walking into the woods. She
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: was bummed bombed.
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: But we persevered. Yeah, persevered.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: It was great.
• 5:23
  Speaker 5: Competitive that rug put in her room.
• 5:26
  Speaker 6: She will competitive bear hunter like competitive with the bears,
• 5:30
  Speaker 6: competitive with her brothers, competitive with.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: Oh you know it. Competitive, yes, a little bit competitive
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: with her brothers, but mostly it's competitive.
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: Maybe that's not the right.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Word, but it's she has a a a challenge accepted.
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah style, she's got a tag. She wants to pill that.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: It's it's we're doing this and it's.
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: Like, Okay, she's motivated, let's go.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: What was her on the on the ride home? Was
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: she like I can't wait to do that again?
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: Or was she didn't come up very happy? With very
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: happy with the results, very happy with the results. And
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: it's this bear. Had we saw someones that were a
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: little rubbed. This bear has almost like an electric blue.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: It's not I wouldn't call it a glacier bear, not
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: that area, but has almost when it was just laying there,
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: has almost like an electric blue black color to it. Gorgeous.
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: We're having John Hayes. John Hayes is.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Gonna do it bear man rugging.
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: He's gonna rug it, make a bunch of sausage with it.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: Hot Italian and sweet attack. And I kept the backstraps
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: for regular eating, but mostly sausage.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna do the Clay nucum heavily salt and throw
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: it in a wood stove for twenty five to thirty
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: seconds treatment.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: No, not his not Clay's raspy. The funniest thing we'll
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: move on. But the funniest thing that came out of
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: that meal you're referring to was Clay was telling us
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: how he doesn't like, oh, he doesn't like fresh ground pepper. Yeah, oh,
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: he says, I like pepper out of those tins. He says,
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: I like it. So when you he says I like
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: it to work like a windicat. He does not like
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: a grainy, stale, old, stale, old, powdered and pepper. He
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: does not like any kind of like fresh ground, crunchy
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: pepper between your teeth.
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: He likes those McCormick tins.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: And when you turn it upside down, like blows away
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: like charcoal dust.
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: The restaurant pepper, like the diner pepper.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: It's so funny that he's got like an opinion.
• 7:57
  Speaker 6: It's just the essence of pepper. Point you're not actually
• 8:01
  Speaker 6: getting pepper.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Fe like I would.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't blink twice if someone handed me his favorite pepper,
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: you know, like it's not like I'm just kind of
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: it's pepper, but he had his very strong, very strong
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: paint on it.
• 8:18
  Speaker 7: Uh.
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: Broady been Walleye fishing, wally Dogs.
• 8:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's late start for normally I'd had a boat
• 8:24
  Speaker 5: out by now, but it was the first time this
• 8:25
  Speaker 5: past weekend.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: Because of all this running bs yeah, jogging.
• 8:29
  Speaker 5: Yep, that takes up a lot of time on the weekends.
• 8:33
  Speaker 5: But yeah, we got out there on Saturday. We went
• 8:35
  Speaker 5: to Canyon Ferry close by here, and normally this time
• 8:39
  Speaker 5: of year at the south end of that lake, where
• 8:42
  Speaker 5: the river dumpson would just be chocolate milk and mud.
• 8:45
  Speaker 5: But there's no run no snow run off this year,
• 8:47
  Speaker 5: so it's clear.
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we tore up the little little walleye, little.
• 8:52
  Speaker 5: Wileyes draggon crank baits around like eight or ten feet
• 8:55
  Speaker 5: of water.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: But it's like percha that lake right now, and that's
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: like that's a dynamically it's always changing, always changing right now.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: It's like perch fishing for walleyes, yes, because it's a
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: bunch of walleyes the size of big person.
• 9:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah, there's not a good like forage base of of
• 9:12
  Speaker 5: like minnows or whatever for those walleyes, so they they
• 9:16
  Speaker 5: eat a lot of insects and so there's a whole
• 9:20
  Speaker 5: bunch of small ones and a few really big ones
• 9:22
  Speaker 5: that eat other walleyes.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: But there's a lot of age classes missing. Yep.
• 9:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah, But they've they've changed the management strategy so people
• 9:30
  Speaker 5: are keeping more of those small ones and there's a
• 9:33
  Speaker 5: cutoff you can only keep one over fifteen inches, I think,
• 9:38
  Speaker 5: to get those those bigger age classes coming back. But
• 9:41
  Speaker 5: we had we had a great you know, we caught
• 9:42
  Speaker 5: enough for a fish fry.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: It was fun, you know, it's a weird deal. It's
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: almost like some moriel's got to get I don't know.
• 9:48
  Speaker 5: But dude, Like we put the boat in and it's like,
• 9:51
  Speaker 5: where do we go and when you look to the
• 9:52
  Speaker 5: south Lake and there's like a cluster of thirty boats
• 9:55
  Speaker 5: like kind of in one corner.
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like we'll go check there.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Sure enough, and they were all catching those twelve inchries. Yeah, yeah,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: huh yep, huh.
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: So yeah, Dynamic Lake, m.
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I like, it's not my favorite one.
• 10:13
  Speaker 5: We usually hit another lake in the summer, which when
• 10:15
  Speaker 5: we'll start hitting that one too, but it's close.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: By, so it's fun in my lifetime. Like I remember,
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: I started fishing that lake in the mid nineties. Yeah,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: and at that time you could get a mountain.
• 10:32
  Speaker 5: Well, I remember you'd say you and your brothers used
• 10:34
  Speaker 5: to catch a couple hundred and one morning yellow perch.
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: Now there's a couple of perch.
• 10:41
  Speaker 5: In there that are bigger than the walleyes, that are
• 10:43
  Speaker 5: bigger than the walleyes.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Yes, so it went for being that, you went for
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: being swarms of eight nine ten inch perch, no walleye
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: to speak of, except for like a normal walleye fishery
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: to being that the small perch are gone. It's giant
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: perch and perch size walleyes. Yeah, but this is this
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: is what happens in reservoirs, and this is what happens
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: when you have a fishery dominated by non natives.
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, it's just hard to control what happens.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: And yeah, there's no equilibrium.
• 11:10
  Speaker 5: The waley blew up, but they ate all the perch.
• 11:13
  Speaker 5: So you know, that's what it is there. That lake
• 11:15
  Speaker 5: also has like in my eyes, it's a problem, like
• 11:19
  Speaker 5: the large percentage of the biomass in that lake seems
• 11:23
  Speaker 5: to be carp Yeah.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: Right now, my boy and his buddy put on wet
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: suits and took spear guns. Yeah, and he said without
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: going under I gave him a couple of pins and
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: I'm like, you want to dive down to the drop?
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: He said, We never went under water. And he said,
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: we laid on the surface and shot thirty four.
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. I don't know what you do
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: about it.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: Like nothing, Ye, he thinks he's helping you when you
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: get up to thirty four and I'm like, he's like,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: I have gonna go carp spearfishing.
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: Wait, what do you do with all those carts on
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: a flame, not my freezer.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: The lake. I'm like, okay, I'll tell you. Let's agree
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: on this. It doesn't hurt the lake. It doesn't hurt
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: the lake.
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: Uh yeah, Spencer.
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: Gardening gardening, but not garden.
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: You're an orchardist.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Is that a word?
• 12:22
  Speaker 6: I don't know if that's probably a word. I think
• 12:25
  Speaker 6: like the gardening version of an orchard though, is orchard y,
• 12:29
  Speaker 6: orchard y something like that. It's like orchard r y.
• 12:32
  Speaker 6: So I've been orchard okay, yeah, or no, I be
• 12:35
  Speaker 6: I think that's like the gardening equivalent. It doesn't matter.
• 12:38
  Speaker 6: I've spent my spring digging holes. I'm trying to start
• 12:42
  Speaker 6: an orchard where I live. I'm now up to sixty
• 12:44
  Speaker 6: fruit bearing trees, dwarf trees and shrubs on my property
• 12:48
  Speaker 6: from sixteen different types of fruit. Phil has a graphic
• 12:54
  Speaker 6: forest there.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: I've got who made that? Actually, it's personalized.
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: No, I asked Data Center to make it for me.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: Right next to you.
• 13:08
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: Five down bucket of water.
• 13:12
  Speaker 6: Down to apples, blackberries, buffalo berries, chokeberries, choke cherries, currant
• 13:17
  Speaker 6: crab apples, cherries, plums, pears, peaches, raspberries, rubarbs, saskatoons, thimbleberries.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: And honeybery.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: Why are you rolling rhubarb into that?
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: I didn't know where to put that at its perennial bearing.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: Sparagus and rubarb perennials.
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: Okay, garden, you.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: Make a pie with it. Listen, you make a pie
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: and a christ you.
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: Might as well put spinach on there.
• 13:40
  Speaker 6: Take take rubarb off, ignore rubar please, I have I
• 13:43
  Speaker 6: have two rubarbis.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Shooting a gall on the water by removing rhubarb.
• 13:47
  Speaker 6: And then I've got a sixteen foot of sparagus trench
• 13:50
  Speaker 6: that that I've got going as well.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: That didn't make the list.
• 13:52
  Speaker 6: That you know, that didn't feel like make the list?
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: Feel Yeah, that felt like a faring thing. What do
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: you most excited to eat?
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: On that list?
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: Most exciting?
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: Get to focus on the negative you yeah, okay?
• 14:06
  Speaker 6: What the most self aware probably is anything producing?
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: Yet are you still years away? Well, rubarb I made.
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: I made a cake with my rubarb this last week,
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: but that doesn't count. Not a fruiting. No.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: No.
• 14:18
  Speaker 6: The thing I'm probably most excited for was peaches, because
• 14:20
  Speaker 6: that's the one that they tell you not to grow here.
• 14:23
  Speaker 6: They're like peaches they didn't grow, and really like, I
• 14:25
  Speaker 6: can do it. I'm trying it. Well, if we had
• 14:27
  Speaker 6: this winter we had this last winter, you could grow
• 14:29
  Speaker 6: coconuts in the valley here. So the peaches I'm very
• 14:33
  Speaker 6: bullish on. And I now have some peaches forming.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Throw them on the grill with oversized pork chops.
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: Those those I'm excited. Bring on that global warming.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like what you got going for the most part.
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: Okay, what what don't we like?
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: Besides the rubar your cur I think your currents are
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: going to tear it the new one.
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: They're doing good. I only planted two of those.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: Cherries will tear it a new one.
• 14:55
  Speaker 6: Crab apples well, one that they're native, which I really like.
• 14:59
  Speaker 6: Twelve of my sixteen things are native to North America.
• 15:02
  Speaker 6: The other one is they are a phenomenal pollinator for
• 15:05
  Speaker 6: your other apples. Apples are one of those trees that
• 15:07
  Speaker 6: you need to have multiple varieties, and crab apples are
• 15:09
  Speaker 6: one of the strongest for helping pollinate your apples. Oh,
• 15:12
  Speaker 6: you know, you might enjoy wanted to have a crab apple.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: We have the author of a new book about Johnny appleseed.
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: Oh, I would love that.
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: He's coming on.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Not only is about Johnny Appleseed, but he he goes
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: and does John Chese goes and does his route and
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: talks to people.
• 15:30
  Speaker 5: And Johnny Appleseed's got any scandal in his life.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: I don't know, we'll find out.
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Johnny Appleseed not wouldn't be scandalous to us. To
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: maybe his religion.
• 15:41
  Speaker 6: He was like a very conservative like Quaker to yeah, anyway,
• 15:50
  Speaker 6: he hid. The trees that he was planting were largely
• 15:53
  Speaker 6: called spitters, which you don't eat those fresh, you make
• 15:56
  Speaker 6: them into hard cider. And so he's sort of betraying
• 15:59
  Speaker 6: his leigion by planting all these like cider brewing trees.
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: It's like if you went around throwing beers in people's yard.
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: Yes, it's exactly. You're gonna have to get canning spender.
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: I plan to. Yeah, what else against the honeyberries? Honeyberries?
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: Try something new?
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: Are you familiar with honeyberries?
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Listen? I got some honeyberry bushes the likes of witch
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: would stagger the mind.
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: So why don't you like them?
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Because kids don't like them?
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: They don't, they don't have any kids.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: They eat them, you know, no one likes them. I
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: get them to my kids and they're like, that's not
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: a berry here.
• 16:32
  Speaker 6: I think your problem is with honeyberries. You don't eat
• 16:34
  Speaker 6: those until like the day they turn ripe. Anytime up
• 16:38
  Speaker 6: until that moment, you have a very poor experience eating
• 16:41
  Speaker 6: a honeyberry. So if you were eating ones that weren't ripe,
• 16:43
  Speaker 6: I understand why someone would spit them out and be like,
• 16:45
  Speaker 6: I'm never having that.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: Don't come tell me that I was doing it wrong.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying I would yank your honeyberries out.
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: Uh huh, it's too late.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: I would yank your blackberries out.
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: Saskatoons. Why would you take away blackberries?
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: I think I would double down on raspberries. The blackberries.
• 17:01
  Speaker 5: Uh have you dealt with saskatoons or service berries before?
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I've already got I've had two of those.
• 17:06
  Speaker 5: They're real cd IM. They're not like a pickoff the
• 17:09
  Speaker 5: bush and.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: The crab out.
• 17:12
  Speaker 6: I just explained to Brody those are a phenomenal pollinator.
• 17:15
  Speaker 6: And I'm even I'm even gonna double down on that
• 17:18
  Speaker 6: next year. I've got some aspirational things I want to
• 17:20
  Speaker 6: add yet, an apricot tree. It was too late for
• 17:23
  Speaker 6: me this year to get an apricot tree in the ground,
• 17:25
  Speaker 6: so I'm gonna do that. I want to do an
• 17:26
  Speaker 6: apple crab, which is a crab apple apple hybrid, so
• 17:30
  Speaker 6: that it like makes.
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: A cute little deep and it tastes.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Okay, yes, I grow.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: I grow currants.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: So last year I took all my currents, spread them
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: out on cookie sheets and set them out in the
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: yard and made my own little current dried currents, right, missus.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: The missus was promising that she was gonna make me
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: something with all those dried currants, and them sons of
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: bitches are still in the pantry. I gotta remind she's
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: pretty reliable about bacon.
• 17:56
  Speaker 6: I'm gonna be up to at some point here. I'm
• 17:58
  Speaker 6: gonna have a harvest six months out of the year,
• 17:59
  Speaker 6: from May to October. I'm going to constantly have my
• 18:02
  Speaker 6: perennials pushing out fruit. And then I'm also going to
• 18:06
  Speaker 6: grow enough that I don't have to be mad at
• 18:08
  Speaker 6: the bunnies and the birds and the bugs when they
• 18:11
  Speaker 6: take them. I can just let them have it, because
• 18:12
  Speaker 6: I'm like, look at look at all this delicious fruit
• 18:14
  Speaker 6: I have.
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: Take your take your share, But.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Not like Randall.
• 18:18
  Speaker 6: No, I'm not going to competea Randall's out there, wakes
• 18:21
  Speaker 6: up enraged about chickens. The other thing, Brody was worried
• 18:27
  Speaker 6: about my time management that I'm just going to spend
• 18:29
  Speaker 6: my time doing nothing but mowing around trees. Now, but
• 18:32
  Speaker 6: I planned these inner no mozone so I have now
• 18:35
  Speaker 6: converted forty percent of my yard to an area that
• 18:39
  Speaker 6: so I'm just saving saving time there, saving water.
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: I just foul of the homeowners associationd.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: You know I was. I was the other day. I
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: was asked to Spencer, like Spencer doesn't come to the
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: office a lot of days, and he says, oh, I
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: do my best work at home. Now I know what
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: he's talking about.
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: He's a farman. He's a farmer. It's in my blood farming.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, oh check this out. Mark Kenyons got a new
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: podcast called Future Wild, launched yesterday May twenty seventh, drops
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: every second Wednesday, every second Wednesday, like every other Wednesday. Yes, okay,
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: so we've taken you'll see like Cal's Week, Cal's Week
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: in Review, that stuff. We had to do a little
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: more shuffling on our on our feed, so you'll find
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: a feed called Meat Eater Conservation. Cal's wee can review Lives,
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Media Conservation, Mark Kenyon's Future Wild Lives meat eater Conservation.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: So if you when you're when you're listening to the
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: show as you want. It was formerly the cal of
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: the Wild podcast feed, but it's now getting filled out
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: with additional shows, so you'll see the name switch there, Okay,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: audience emails Dirk and wrote in we were talking about
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: how Michigan. Michigan has sort of three main game management areas,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: the Upper Peninsula, the Northern Lower Peninsula, the Southern Lower Peninsula.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: The Southern Lower Peninsula had always been ever since I
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: was a child and probably before that, had always been
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: shotgun only, and there was like what we call the
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: shotgun line. Below the shotgun line, you can't hunt with
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: a rifle. Bless their hearts, they just undid that. It's
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: just rifle through and through whole state. Now, I was saying,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: how I think that's a great idea, and really liked
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: all that, and I was sort of this is not
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: a word I use off, but I was poo poohing
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: the idea that it would lead to an increased number
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: of accidents. Pat Durkin, America's last outdoor Calumnists, wrote in
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: to say that he disagrees, and he thinks that he's
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: got data showing that he disagrees. Okay, So Wisconsin, right, Wisconsin,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: he says, they went through the same debate fifteen years ago. Okay,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: So in twenty thirteen, Wisconsin got rid of their shotgun
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: zone the counties they had counties that were shotgun only.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: The thinking is primarily that the you know, a shotgun
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: slug doesn't go as far, so it's safer.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: Less likely to hit a home, less likely to hit person.
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and like areas of higher population density, the higher
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: home density or whatever.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: Because when you touch off you know Grandpa's old thirty
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: oh six, right, it just can wind up somewhere you
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: don't anticipate. And when you touch off your shotgun, it's
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: going to burrow into the other side of the field.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: I'm exaggerating, but you get the point center fire. You know,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: tapered rifle cartridges fly farther. Wisconsin went through this. Dirkin
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: made a chart that he compiled last fall for Weekly
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Outdoors column, and he looks into what happened in Wisconsin
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: when they did this, And okay, he says this in brief.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: I almost hesitate to say this because it makes gun
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: and seem like a not good idea. But I'm just
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: gonna in all fairness and brief, Wisconsin had two hundred
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: and three shooting accidents. We're not talking about hitting someone's
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: storage shed accidents, human accidents. Wisconsin had two hundred and
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: three shooting accidents during November's main gun deer season from
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: two thousand to twenty twenty five. So for a year,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: is my math right? No? Eighty year? Is that possibly true?
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: Dirky would know.
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: There's a lot of hunters in Wisconsin and an accident,
• 22:58
  Speaker 5: I mean, it doesn't Diffe good.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: Is two one hundred and three shooting accidents in twenty
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: five years.
• 23:05
  Speaker 5: What I would want to know is how many of
• 23:07
  Speaker 5: those were like self inflicted?
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: Like you know what? There's like, yeah, all encompassing.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: That's when I start tearing Dirking down. That's one of
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: the things I'm going to use to tearing apart.
• 23:18
  Speaker 6: Right there are eight hundred, eight hundred thousand deer tags
• 23:22
  Speaker 6: in Wisconsin, so that's you know, one accident per one
• 23:26
  Speaker 6: hundred thousand tags.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll take those ods.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: I don't. I've just I almost want to abort right
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: now because there's parts of this I'm just.
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: Not feeling I think you gotta keep going.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: I'll keep going. But please, if you're a Wisconsin knight
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: who's handy with numbers and good on the.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: Internet, feel free to write in.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Dirk goes on to say this, So then they got
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: rid of the shotgun only counties, my rifle statewide from
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: two thousand to twenty twelve. Oh, I'm given this wrong.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: I should never gotten into this.
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: Okay, well we screwed like.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: You should have never gotten into this. Let me put
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: my glasses on.
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: Initially you said two thousands.
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: The numbers we just quoted, you said were from two
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: thousand to twenty twenty five. It was actually two thousand
• 24:21
  Speaker 5: to twenty twelve.
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: Those those well.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: Who put down twenty five.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, this is may I never mind.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: May I'm pulling out May I big picture stories not
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: ready so big picture.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: There's a twenty five year span and halfway ready, halfway
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: through that it goes to rifles only. So in the
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: first half of this twenty five year span, there were
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: one hundred and thirty nine of the two hundred and
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: three shootings took place in the second in the second
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: half of it, to make four.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: I respect that, Steve, I'm pulling out.
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: You're not falling into the sunt costs, fallacy.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: No heat. No, I'm just I'm pulling.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: He should have he should have just cut this sentence.
• 25:02
  Speaker 6: There's a fifty four percent decline when they switched over.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: I am not. I remember when CBS, when Berry was
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: pretty straight.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: The numbers all add up.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Remember Berry wife took over CBS News and they had
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: that big story prepared about the l Salvadoran super Prison,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: and they pulled the story and everybody got all mad.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: And then she said, it's not that we're pulling it,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: because they were like, oh, you just you're afraid to
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: be critical of the administration. And she said, that's not it.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: The reporting's not ready, and then lo and behold the
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: story came out.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: That's us right now.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: I think this is pretty straight. Is not ready, Steve,
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: just ignore, we ignore the sentence that says in brief
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: and then just read the last two sentences of the paragraph. Yes,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: from twenty to twenty twelve, one hundred and thirty nine shootings.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: From twenty thirteen to twenty twenty five, sixty four shootings,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: a fifty four percent decline.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: But I'm still going to tear her down when I'm ready,
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: because how many of these are self inflicted?
• 26:06
  Speaker 6: Do you think that changes the rifle versus shotgun?
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: Because I don't know. I don't what I need to
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: parse this.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Out, Like I don't the fifty four.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: I don't know that you could attribute it.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: It's just not deep.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: No, But I think all it shows is that when
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: you switch to rifles, you don't necessarily see an increase
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: in overall accidental shootings.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: No, he's that's that's what he's saying. You do see
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: an increase.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: No, No, he's saying, you see a decrease.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: I think the problem is you didn't read this.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: I read it.
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: Oh you didn't comprehend it.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that they switched to rifles and in fact
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: they've had a decline in accidental shootings. Yeah, so there's
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: something else that explains the decline. But clearly you don't
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: see an increase.
• 26:52
  Speaker 6: The bucks got bigger, the sky got bluer, birds, music
• 26:57
  Speaker 6: got sweeter, everything improved when they switched to rifles.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: Okay, Dirkin does make a good point. Maybe what he
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: does make a good point about is he's like, here's
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: the other deal. Yeah, I missing, So it's like my
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: fault a little bit.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: I was I didn't know and said that Kakarry rise.
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: I screwed up. I shouldn't have pulled it. I was
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: gonna tear Dirkin apart.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: But I don't think yet. What Dirkin does point out
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: is this, he's doing a little bit of what I
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: wanted him to do more of. He's pointing out that
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: deer drives are kind of going extinct, and he's pointing
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: out that people are using more elevated blinds, which is
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: helping to reduce the accidents. But until you pluck out
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: self inflicted shootings where a guy is like getting his
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: gun out of his truck right shoots himself in the
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: knee or whatever, I would need to like, I would
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: need to parse it out to see what is the
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: result of like bullets flying, and what is the result
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: of of just malfeasance.
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: H What are they say in the military.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: There is no.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: They don't allow you to say accidental discharge.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: The military is negligent discharge. I would need to see
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: negligent discharges pulled out of this for me to start
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: having any idea about it. That's all.
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: I think. It shows a trend. Give them a little credit.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Moving on, A lawyer wrote in, we covered some people.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: We covered some crazy North Carolina waterfowl people who have
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: taken it upon themselves sort of migrate these little ducks
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: and geese around a lake to put them where they
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: feel they're safe. And they're sort of loading up wild
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: waterfowl into dog crates and moving it where they want
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: it to be. And this guy was asking is that
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: even legal? And we were pointing out that's definitely not legal. Well.
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: A lawyer wrote in about a community.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: In Surfside Beach, South Carolina, and Spencer's gonna share some
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: insights about this community.
• 29:24
  Speaker 6: This person says, those crazy North Carolina folks have nothing
• 29:28
  Speaker 6: on this lady. She's a few cans short of a
• 29:31
  Speaker 6: twelve pack. She is suing Surfside Beach for infringing on
• 29:34
  Speaker 6: her First Amendment rights by ticketing her for feeding geese.
• 29:38
  Speaker 6: This lady will stop traffic on the highway to let
• 29:41
  Speaker 6: geese walk across the road. Now, that doesn't seem that
• 29:43
  Speaker 6: damning to me, Like, what you're gonna just drive through
• 29:46
  Speaker 6: the flock of geese if they're crossing the road.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: No, that doesn't seem damning to me that you would
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: get cited for feeding illegally feeding migratory waterfowl and then
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: say that's a violation of your First Amendment rights?
• 29:59
  Speaker 6: Is goof The article that he links explains it a
• 30:02
  Speaker 6: little more that this woman is a part of a
• 30:05
  Speaker 6: group that's called FIFO FAFO flock around find out.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: That's the only reason this is in this script because
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: I like flock around and find out a lot.
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 30:15
  Speaker 6: And these these people, I don't think they call themselves this,
• 30:17
  Speaker 6: but the article did. It calls them geese influencers who
• 30:21
  Speaker 6: are sort of speaking up on behalf.
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: Of the geese.
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: They have custom hoodies.
• 30:25
  Speaker 6: And yeah and and T shirts and they show up
• 30:28
  Speaker 6: in public wearing them. It sounds like this woman is
• 30:32
  Speaker 6: is filming other residents and their treatment of the geese,
• 30:35
  Speaker 6: which I assume is just like sort of hazing them
• 30:38
  Speaker 6: to get them to move on. And then she is, then,
• 30:41
  Speaker 6: you know, spreading those videos and people are saying you
• 30:44
  Speaker 6: can't do that, you can't film these folks, and she's saying,
• 30:46
  Speaker 6: yes I can. And that's where the First Amendment thing
• 30:48
  Speaker 6: comes in.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Takes like a lawyer that wrote in have gotten that wrong?
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: Is this supposed to be law dogging? Yeah?
• 30:55
  Speaker 6: I don't know that he got it wrong. He just
• 30:56
  Speaker 6: like skipped like four steps to say she's protecting she's
• 30:59
  Speaker 6: pretty detecting geese.
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: Uh. And she is now turned into a First Amendment thing.
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: I said they had hoodies, They in fact have T shirts.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: You walk around find out I like so much.
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: We should meet it or should do a collab with
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: these guys.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: I like around find out goose instead. So this is
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: this is then riled up in a town hall meeting.
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: Apparently it appears that way.
• 31:23
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and so now it's now turned into a First
• 31:26
  Speaker 6: Amendment thing.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: Her attorney says the witch hunt of Maria and the
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: Canadian geese is over.
• 31:32
  Speaker 6: We'll put an end to this, and that the town
• 31:35
  Speaker 6: is not in her favor. They say that feeding these
• 31:38
  Speaker 6: things is causing issues for their public spaces and the residents.
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: So it's the the Foffo group versus the town.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. It's a great story. Guy rode in. Oh, Brody's
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: gonna talk about a guy that rode in. I've been
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: hearing this lately. I've been here in this.
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: I've been hearing it for a while.
• 31:57
  Speaker 5: This is near and dear to my heart, this conspiracy.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: It's not a conspiracy.
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: Listen, it is it is?
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: I think it is.
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: You don't think it is anyway, Let's let's let me
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: hear it. Uh we got We got an email from
• 32:11
  Speaker 5: a listener. I listened to your last interview with Podcasts
• 32:14
  Speaker 5: with Mike Bodenchuck.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: How you say it's that's correct?
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: I predation.
• 32:18
  Speaker 5: You never mentioned turkeys predating on grouse chicks and eggs.
• 32:22
  Speaker 5: They planted turkeys in northern Wisconsin, where they are an
• 32:25
  Speaker 5: invasive species.
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: Okay, we'll get to that.
• 32:28
  Speaker 5: People have witnessed turkeys killing and eating grouse chicks. Thirty
• 32:31
  Speaker 5: turkeys will go through the woods, making it look like
• 32:34
  Speaker 5: pigs went through, scratching up and eating everything. Turkeys are
• 32:38
  Speaker 5: everywhere now, and grouse populations are suffering. Every single person
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: living in once fantastic grouse areas that have been taken
• 32:45
  Speaker 5: over by turkeys say the same thing grouse are suffering.
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: This seems to be a taboo subject.
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: I would like to hear your thoughts. Go ahead, I
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: got thoughts.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: I was just hunting in Oklahoma. Yeah, turkeys hunting Oklahoma,
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: And like every time you go turkey hunting, there's a
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: lot of birds on the neighbor's place, which is a
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: common problem. So we went and spoke to the neighbor.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: Uh huh, he said, kill them all. They're eating all
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: my quail. Okay, And then we were talking amongst ourselves.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Do we dispel him of that belief? Take the permission? Yes,
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: we just decided to take the permission and resist. Every
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: part of me, every part of me, wanted to say, well, yeah,
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: I don't know about that, right.
• 33:35
  Speaker 6: But I've never corrected a landowner who said something, you know,
• 33:39
  Speaker 6: tell me black his whine to be like, of course
• 33:41
  Speaker 6: it is.
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: Yes, this is a thing that's been coming up for years,
• 33:44
  Speaker 5: like in rough grouse country, and you know the whole
• 33:50
  Speaker 5: like people have witnessed turkey's killing and eating grouse chicks.
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: Maybe I don't know.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: I'd have to see where there's got to be trailcam
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: footage if this is such a problem.
• 33:59
  Speaker 5: But like, he's right that turkeys were introduced into northern
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: Wisconsin in the nineteen seventies. Prior to that, they were
• 34:07
  Speaker 5: not turkeys that far north. They planted them, they took off,
• 34:11
  Speaker 5: they did well.
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: I don't think you can call them.
• 34:15
  Speaker 5: An invasive species, that's my opinion. During that same timeframe,
• 34:20
  Speaker 5: like throughout Rough grouse country. Since the late seventies early eighties,
• 34:26
  Speaker 5: rough grouse have been on a serious decline. The fact
• 34:32
  Speaker 5: that these two things happened at the same time, like correlation,
• 34:35
  Speaker 5: is not causation, right, Just because the turkeys are there
• 34:38
  Speaker 5: doesn't mean they're the reason grouse are around are herding.
• 34:43
  Speaker 5: We did a podcast with our buddy Carl Malcolm from
• 34:46
  Speaker 5: the Rough Grouse Society and touched on this a little bit.
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: Carl would tell you.
• 34:51
  Speaker 5: It's exclusively, not exclusively, it's mostly a habitat problem where
• 34:57
  Speaker 5: grouse are hurting. It's because the habitat is an ideal
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: for them. Like, I can't say this guy is completely
• 35:05
  Speaker 5: wrong and what he's seeing didn't happen, But yeah, I
• 35:09
  Speaker 5: think it's a it's along the lines of.
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: A conspiracy theory.
• 35:12
  Speaker 5: It's something I tell my buddy in Pennsylvania that's a
• 35:15
  Speaker 5: hardcore grouse hunter. I say it all the time as
• 35:17
  Speaker 5: a joke, like turkeys ate all the grouse, but it's
• 35:20
  Speaker 5: a joke.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I would invite this person, and I would
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: never want to hack on a guy that's just curious
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: about what's going on.
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: I would invite him.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: To reach out to places that do turkey research. Okay,
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: reach out to n WTF, reach out to Carlo and
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: start looking into something called crop surveys. There have been
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: in a lot of areas extensive crop surveys where they
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: hunters submit in some cases thousands of samples of turkey
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: crops and you can see you can research about what
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: turns up in turkey crops.
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: They eat some odd things.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I can't rule out that it never happened, right,
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: because you can throw a mouse to a backyard chicken. Yes,
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: it'll eat the mouse.
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: Now we're talking.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: There is there is trailcam footage of a white tailed
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: deer yep going up to a robin nest, pulling a
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: hatchling out of the nest and eating it. Things happen,
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: they do, But is it having a population level impact? Yeah,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: And like I can't tell you that no turkey has
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: never eaten a grouse.
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: Sure, I'm sure it happened.
• 36:34
  Speaker 5: But I would think if this was a major problem,
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: that an organization like the Rough Grouse Society might have
• 36:45
  Speaker 5: like addressed this.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: At this point.
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: And it does not seem to be a bit of
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: a concern.
• 36:52
  Speaker 6: Is the idea that they enjoy eating those eggs or
• 36:55
  Speaker 6: Are they just trying to eliminate competition from the way, Oh.
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: No, I think it's just keep whatever they can. I'm
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: not familiar with this theory. Yeah, I think it's.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: Just a yeah, the turkeys aren't doing like they're not
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: doing what a wolf does when it kills at kyo. Right,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: I mean I don't. I mean I've never interviewed a turkey,
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: but I don't buy that's just as my guess on it.
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: So yeah, sorry, man, I can't I'm not buying it.
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: But good luck.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: In the news, we have a special guest coming on
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: right now from the National Institute of Health.
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: Let me give you a little background.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: A guy I used to be buddies with. We didn't
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: have a fallen out. We just don't talk as much
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: as he once did. The journalist Jim Robbins did a
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: piece in The New York Times about chronic wasting disease
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: and what's worked, what's not worked. Just just kind of
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: your like typical piece that comes up every few years,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: where there's a survey of what's going on in chronic
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: wasting disease research, chronic wasting disease management, and attitudes towards
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: chronic wasting disease. It was a well reported piece, and
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Jim Robbins is pretty great at his when he does
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: wildlife work, He's pretty great at really getting a disparate
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: collection of voices together on an issue. I always like
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: reading Jim Robbins journalism, and he does a lot of
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: great pieces in the Times and brings a very level
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: headed look to complex wildlife issues. In this piece, I
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: read about the work of Catherine Catherine, can you help
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: me with your how you pronounced your last name? He
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: In the work, Jim mentioned Catherine Haig from the National
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Institute of Health and that they were she'll do much
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: better job explain it to me.
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: But they were looking into.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: The likelihood or the probability or what would need to
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: happen for chronic wasting disease to do a species jump.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Just as a quick background, chronic waste and disease is
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: a is a servid disease moose, deer, white tailed deer,
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: mule deer, elk, caribou, members of the deer family. It's
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: a preon disease that afflicts members of the deer family.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: And there's this fear that I'm speaking of me personally.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: I've eaten accidentally, I've eaten CWD positive meat. Ah, I worry.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: My primary concern around CWD remains that a person would
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: get it, and I and I it would be devastating
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: for that individual. It would be devastating for the culture
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: of deer hunting. It would be terrible that you would
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: look at a deer not as this great source of
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: renewable resource of and source of nutrition and all these
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: family value baked up around hunting and eating wild game
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: and sharing that experience, and you'd look at a deer
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: and think, man, that thing's now safe to eat.
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: It would just be devastating.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: So with all that said, Catherine, can you tell us
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: a little bit about what you do at work and
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: what you did at work around your CWD project.
• 40:22
  Speaker 7: Thank you very much for inviting me on. Yeah, I
• 40:25
  Speaker 7: am a pre on biologist. My work has generally focused
• 40:29
  Speaker 7: on the human forms of these diseases. So in humans,
• 40:33
  Speaker 7: most of the diseases they're a bit more like Alzheimer's.
• 40:38
  Speaker 7: They arise for no known reason. They're not all by
• 40:41
  Speaker 7: any means due to infection. That's a very very small amount.
• 40:45
  Speaker 7: Oh yeah, there are a very small numbers that are
• 40:51
  Speaker 7: genetic as well. So in the focus on human diseases.
• 40:57
  Speaker 7: What we developed was what we call a huge human's
• 41:00
  Speaker 7: cerebral organoid model of disease. And so what that is
• 41:04
  Speaker 7: is we take a little sniff of skin cells from
• 41:07
  Speaker 7: a consenting DONU, We reprogram them like you would a computer,
• 41:12
  Speaker 7: to make them stem cells. And from those stem cells,
• 41:16
  Speaker 7: we then tell them to grow into brain cells and
• 41:19
  Speaker 7: we create these little bowls of brain cells. Once we've
• 41:22
  Speaker 7: done that, we can expose them to those infectious prions
• 41:27
  Speaker 7: from a human that died of these diseases, and we
• 41:30
  Speaker 7: can have them infected to model the development of disease
• 41:35
  Speaker 7: in a petri dish.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to ask a question, a clarifying question
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: on that. When you say a human that died from
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: those diseases, give me an example of one of the
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: diseases that that might because you know, like we said,
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: like no human has as far as we know, no
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: human has ever contracted CWD. So what what human disease
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: that you would you use in your work?
• 42:01
  Speaker 7: Can we use kloisveloped yapp of disease? So that's the
• 42:04
  Speaker 7: most common form of human disease, It's still really rare.
• 42:08
  Speaker 7: It's an incidence of about one to three per million,
• 42:11
  Speaker 7: so not common by any stretch. But the people who
• 42:15
  Speaker 7: die of it, the prions that are within their brain
• 42:18
  Speaker 7: are infectious to other human tissue. So that's what we use.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: And you've been and you with the technology you're describing,
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: you have been able to take these preons from a
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: donor and you've been able to infect the cells in
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: your petri dish like you can you can successfully infect
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: the cells, yes, okay, okay, Yeah, and.
• 42:47
  Speaker 7: We've monitored them for the disease progression, what's changing in
• 42:51
  Speaker 7: them and the deposition of the misfolded protein that is
• 42:56
  Speaker 7: that causative preon, so we see all of that within
• 42:59
  Speaker 7: the human organoids.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay, So then walk me through what happened when
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: you start looking at CWD, or give me any other
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: relevant steps along the way here.
• 43:09
  Speaker 7: Well, like you said, the big question what worries everyone
• 43:15
  Speaker 7: is the potential for a jump from we have servants
• 43:20
  Speaker 7: to humans of this disease. And that's a really legitimate worry.
• 43:24
  Speaker 7: I don't know if you have covered mad cow disease
• 43:27
  Speaker 7: on this show, that these diseases are in that same group,
• 43:31
  Speaker 7: that same family. So mad cow disease did jump from
• 43:35
  Speaker 7: cattle to humans. It was thought to be through eating
• 43:38
  Speaker 7: contaminative meat. So it's a real genuine concern. So for us,
• 43:44
  Speaker 7: we now have a model of human infection and we
• 43:50
  Speaker 7: thought we could use this to try and test that
• 43:52
  Speaker 7: species barrier. Our model is somewhat artificial, to be fair.
• 43:58
  Speaker 7: We literally put the mini brains into a deer brain homogenet,
• 44:03
  Speaker 7: so those little mini brain organoid cultures swim in the
• 44:09
  Speaker 7: CWD infectious prions. It's a massive exposure and it's a
• 44:14
  Speaker 7: prolonged exposure, so it's far more than we would ever
• 44:17
  Speaker 7: expect any human to really meet, and certainly no human
• 44:22
  Speaker 7: brain would be expected to be in that environment. So
• 44:25
  Speaker 7: we give them this massive dose of infectious prions and
• 44:29
  Speaker 7: then we monitor them over time to see if they
• 44:33
  Speaker 7: develop disease. Because the CWD the deer prions are just
• 44:40
  Speaker 7: a little bit different to the human we can detect
• 44:43
  Speaker 7: the difference between what was the original deer preon and
• 44:47
  Speaker 7: if a human preon starts to emerge. And the good
• 44:52
  Speaker 7: news for that study was that we did not find
• 44:55
  Speaker 7: any evidence of infection of the human organoids.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: Have you been able to run the same experiment using
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: let's say, run it with cattle okay, or run it
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: with horse or have you done that?
• 45:15
  Speaker 7: We have been doing that. Our difficulty with the BC
• 45:19
  Speaker 7: has been getting hold of good quality tissues to use.
• 45:24
  Speaker 7: We've had tissues with very low titus that really would
• 45:30
  Speaker 7: be too low for infection anyway. So we are doing that.
• 45:33
  Speaker 7: We are trying to do that. We have an abundance
• 45:38
  Speaker 7: of CWD tissues.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I got my I was my question was confusing.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. What I meant was, so the livestock industry
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: right is, rightfully has been rightfully concerned about CWD. That
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: we have CWD infected deer and elk grazing with coming
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: into contact with cattle or she right, and so imagine
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: from imagine from our America's beef producing industry the impacts, right, Yes,
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: that would happen should we find that CWD had somehow
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: infected the nation's beef herds. So would you be able to, like,
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: would your experiment work to bathe cattle brain cells in
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: CWD to see if that's a possible jump.
• 46:43
  Speaker 7: Yes, it would. So. I am aware that the CDC
• 46:48
  Speaker 7: has tissues of CWD that has transmitted to cattle, and
• 46:53
  Speaker 7: we do actually want to look and see if that
• 46:56
  Speaker 7: would be infectious to organize.
• 47:00
  Speaker 8: Difficulties with these experiments because I think people worry that
• 47:05
  Speaker 8: they bought the line on gain a function which obviously
• 47:08
  Speaker 8: you don't want to cross into that area.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: Oka.
• 47:12
  Speaker 7: Really we just want to screen is this infectious to
• 47:16
  Speaker 7: the human brain? Organized? Yep, But I personally think that's
• 47:21
  Speaker 7: a really critical experiment. I think it's far more likely
• 47:26
  Speaker 7: that a CWD that's gone into how could be a problem,
• 47:31
  Speaker 7: and I think we do need to know that.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: God, I'm going to ask you a question that we
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: didn't tee up with you. It's not like a controversial question.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: Don't feel uncomfortable. But a lot of times when I'm
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: talking about CWD, you know, with other deer hunters and
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: people that eat a lot of deer elk, and we
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: have CWD in what's thirty some states now, so most
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: people live in a CWD state.
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: It's better onunderstood on the county level.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: But you know, millions of Americans hunt deer in areas
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: where CWD is in their county. And a question that
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: comes up, or an idea that comes up, is maybe
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: we don't have known instances of humans contracting CWD because
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: these things take so much time, right, and maybe it's
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: just a myth. But you hear people say, well, I
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: don't know in ten years, in twenty years, maybe there
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: will be many. We just don't know yet. How as
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: a professional, what are your thoughts on this idea that
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: it would that you would eat infected meat in twenty
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: years it would emerge. Is this based on anything realistic
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: or is this just kind of an urban like a
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: not an urban but a rural legend.
• 48:54
  Speaker 7: It's not impossible. These UH diseases with very long incubation periods.
• 49:00
  Speaker 7: So one comparison you can draws with the BC epidemic
• 49:04
  Speaker 7: now that emerged in the mid nineteen eighties, and we
• 49:09
  Speaker 7: were seeing the first cases in the mid nineteen nineties.
• 49:12
  Speaker 7: I think it transpired that it's about an eight year
• 49:15
  Speaker 7: median incubation. So what we might expect, you know, CWD
• 49:19
  Speaker 7: we've known about since I think it's been published.
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: Since the sixties, that's correct.
• 49:23
  Speaker 7: Yeah, So what we might expect is that if that
• 49:27
  Speaker 7: really was the case, that we'd start seeing a tickup
• 49:31
  Speaker 7: in the number of cases of CJD. And that just
• 49:34
  Speaker 7: hasn't happened. So I think that is very unlikely. I mean,
• 49:40
  Speaker 7: if the incubation period is so long that it's longer
• 49:43
  Speaker 7: than a human lifespan. That would be irrelevant to anyway,
• 49:48
  Speaker 7: but we would be on the lookout for a tickup
• 49:50
  Speaker 7: in cases or more likely like BC. The form of
• 49:54
  Speaker 7: CJD that it caused was completely different to the forms
• 49:58
  Speaker 7: that we see through natural sporadic disease. The biochemical signature
• 50:04
  Speaker 7: of the protein was distinct, so we were able to
• 50:07
  Speaker 7: tell whether someone died of the variant CJD from eating
• 50:12
  Speaker 7: BSc versus of an unfortunate case of the normal disease.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: I understand.
• 50:19
  Speaker 7: So while it's not impossible at this point, I don't
• 50:23
  Speaker 7: believe there's any evidence to support a tick up in
• 50:26
  Speaker 7: cases or a different disease emerging.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: Yep. Now you're welcome to just take a wild guess here,
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: but I'm going to ask you another question. When CWD
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: was identified, it was identified in a I believe it
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: was a captive mild. You're in Colorado on the late sixties.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: Where do you think that came from. I mean, if
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: we had done the amount of testing, let's say, the
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: amount of testing we're doing now across the country, if
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: we were doing that amount of testing in nineteen hundred,
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: would we have found CWD if we're doing that amount
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: of testing in nineteen hundred, or do you think it
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: spontaneously generated somehow in the North American servid population.
• 51:19
  Speaker 7: It's hard to tell. It may have been around for
• 51:23
  Speaker 7: much much longer than we know. I believe that there
• 51:27
  Speaker 7: is an isolated herd in one of the northern European
• 51:31
  Speaker 7: countries where it spontaneously appeared. So it seems most likely
• 51:37
  Speaker 7: that it could have been a spontaneous disease that maybe
• 51:41
  Speaker 7: if the deer weren't in such close proximity, maybe that
• 51:45
  Speaker 7: one deer would have died and it wouldn't have been
• 51:47
  Speaker 7: a particular problem. But I don't know. It could have
• 51:52
  Speaker 7: been just the odd case here and there for a
• 51:55
  Speaker 7: very long time.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: And there's no you know how you can go look
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: at ice. You can look go look at an organism
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: and you could tell from mitochondrial DNA that it went
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: through a bottleneck, or you can get some idea of
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know the longevity of it, like how by
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: the rate of mutations, whatever the hell you can tell
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: how long something had been around. But these things you
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: can't really look at that way, right, I mean, you
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: can't look at them and sort of date, or look
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: at how they morphed over time, or where populations emerged
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: and spread to. Because it's a it's a protein and
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: not not a cell. I mean, am I you know
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: it's what I'm saying making any sense, Like you can't
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: track its history or am I wrong?
• 52:42
  Speaker 7: It's a little a little bit you can. So if
• 52:47
  Speaker 7: a millennire of evolution, that gene has persisted in the
• 52:53
  Speaker 7: most mammalian species and ab and species I think even
• 52:57
  Speaker 7: in totals, and you can track how the gene evolved
• 53:04
  Speaker 7: by the differences between each species. So one of the
• 53:10
  Speaker 7: things we do when we're looking at sort of the
• 53:13
  Speaker 7: risk of transmission is where those changes have occurred in
• 53:17
  Speaker 7: the sequence. We can look at whether that would prohibit
• 53:22
  Speaker 7: the two preon's binding. So if a sequence has changed
• 53:25
  Speaker 7: too much, you know, it's like a jigsaw puzzle, it's
• 53:28
  Speaker 7: just not going to fit. So we can look at
• 53:32
  Speaker 7: that a little bit. And there is quite a lot
• 53:34
  Speaker 7: of work going on in the field to try and
• 53:36
  Speaker 7: look at those structures to determine whether there is a
• 53:40
  Speaker 7: risk of particularly a given strain maybe moving across.
• 53:46
  Speaker 4: Rather than understood.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, in all honesty, I mostly understand what
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: you're saying, but I get the gist of what you're saying.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: Can I ask you one last question? Of course, have
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: you followed? And apologies but we're getting into we didn't
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: like pre hit you with these, so if you don't
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: want to answer, don't answer it. Have you followed this
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: conversation and some action being taken place around this idea
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: that there's some deer that seemed to be less less
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: susceptible to c w D or CWD behaves in them
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: differently and it's it lingers longer or whatever. But they're
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: like they're being billed as a resistant, a CWD resistant deer.
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: Do you do you have any do you have any
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: professional awareness of this, of of this idea.
• 54:50
  Speaker 7: Yes, it's not, it's not crazy. This mostly comes from
• 54:55
  Speaker 7: the genetics. Again, so within our own genes, you can
• 54:59
  Speaker 7: have of what's called a polymorphism, which can just be
• 55:03
  Speaker 7: a single change in the gene. It doesn't cause disease,
• 55:06
  Speaker 7: it's there, it's normal for everyone. It's you know, just inherited.
• 55:11
  Speaker 7: But those little changes can change your susceptibility to disease.
• 55:16
  Speaker 7: In the world of scrapy, they found that there's a specific,
• 55:23
  Speaker 7: specific set of these polymorphisms, like I think it's three
• 55:28
  Speaker 7: for the scrapy resistance. But when they have those polymorphisms,
• 55:33
  Speaker 7: they are very unlikely to contract disease, so that becomes protected.
• 55:38
  Speaker 7: And this is a huge interest for CWD as well,
• 55:42
  Speaker 7: because if you could breed a herd that simply can't
• 55:44
  Speaker 7: get the disease, then it is no longer a problem.
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: I a little bit beg to differ because.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: I guess I don't beg the different on what you're
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: saying where I want up having a hard time. And
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: this is for this is a different conversation because this
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: is like population modeling and population dynamics. Is how I
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: mean when you have tens of millions of deer out
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: on the landscape and we have servants in fifty states,
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: you know, how would you, let's say you found it,
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: how would you ever have meaningful genetic input into a
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: population without starting basically from zero all over again.
• 56:33
  Speaker 7: It'll take a long time eating population. So this has
• 56:38
  Speaker 7: also happened naturally.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, I don't know if.
• 56:40
  Speaker 7: You've heard of CRU It was a disease. Try it
• 56:44
  Speaker 7: for a tribe of Papa, New Guinea. So they actually
• 56:48
  Speaker 7: they they were accounibals. They were eating the corps is
• 56:52
  Speaker 7: part of funeral right, and of course becoming infected. But
• 56:56
  Speaker 7: they actually evolved a new polymorphis in too prote them
• 57:00
  Speaker 7: against disease. And I think at the point that they
• 57:05
  Speaker 7: were persuaded to change their funeral rights, it was about
• 57:09
  Speaker 7: fifty percent of the population that may have this new polymorphism. Okay,
• 57:15
  Speaker 7: so it happened naturally that they were evolving this effectively
• 57:20
  Speaker 7: to survive. So with a few deal with those polymorphisms
• 57:26
  Speaker 7: out there, they may simply outcompete the moms that get disease.
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: Got may over time. I got a question like, yeah,
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: she's great, if you ever you should come do a
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: residency here.
• 57:40
  Speaker 5: Catherine, What what would you say to a hunter who
• 57:46
  Speaker 5: sees the result of your test? And it's like, see,
• 57:50
  Speaker 5: there was nothing to worry about, Like I can eat
• 57:54
  Speaker 5: the CWD positive meat and it's not like I have
• 57:58
  Speaker 5: no nothing to worry about as far as getting infected.
• 58:01
  Speaker 4: Like what would you say to that?
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: Now you're putting her in a tough spot.
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: Don't But I think there's an answer.
• 58:06
  Speaker 5: I think like because I'm guessing, like there's no such
• 58:11
  Speaker 5: thing as a negative result, right.
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: You want to see a scientist choose her words carefully.
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, get rid.
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: Because they are going to be hunters who are.
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: Like see, oh I feel that way.
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
• 58:26
  Speaker 7: Every model is flawed, so that's the first thing to
• 58:29
  Speaker 7: bear in mind is science nothing is perfect, so we
• 58:33
  Speaker 7: have to always take our results with a grain of salt.
• 58:36
  Speaker 7: In our model, we have tested the human polymorphisms that
• 58:42
  Speaker 7: represent only ninety ish percent of the population, so there's
• 58:46
  Speaker 7: still a subset of people we haven't been able to
• 58:49
  Speaker 7: test whether they would be vulnerable. We are working on
• 58:52
  Speaker 7: that now and keeping fingers crossed. So I don't think
• 58:58
  Speaker 7: I would be blast say and say yeah, you'll be fine.
• 59:02
  Speaker 7: Eat as much as you want. I think I would
• 59:05
  Speaker 7: still recommend the people that they get them eat tested
• 59:08
  Speaker 7: if they can. I also feel a bit like this
• 59:11
  Speaker 7: isn't something to be losing sleepover.
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: M this is the kind of CWD research.
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: I like, Man, don't lose any sleep over No, No,
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: just dispassionate that she's dispassionate. Do you know what I mean?
• 59:25
  Speaker 7: No?
• 59:25
  Speaker 5: I like that answer. Keep it in mind, but don't
• 59:29
  Speaker 5: lose any sleep over it.
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: Catherine, you come on the show anytime. Man, This is great.
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: This is my favorite guest of all time. Thank you
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: very much.
• 59:40
  Speaker 7: Well, thank you for the invite.
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: You come any time. We'll get you gonna have Brodie.
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: We'll get you some of our deer meat teat.
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll cook you some deer meat.
• 59:51
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: Oh you know, I gotta tell you one last thing.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: I'm just telling you this just to enter, just to
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: be entertaining, to give you a little concept to think about.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: When I used to have an idea that like, I
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: love to talk about CWD to a fault. It's my
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: favorite subject. And I'm open to people's opinions about who
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: I'm very open to people who want to say, don't
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: worry about CWD, or they're like cwd's a hoax, or
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: CWD doesn't matter, it's a conspiracy theory. And my thing
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: is I used to want to make a burger. I
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: wanted to get a bunch of CWD infected deer, like
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: a dozen of them, and make a batch of burger
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: with all that meat. And then when someone was coming
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: to tell me that it was a hoax and didn't matter,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: I would cook them that a patty of that burger,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: and if they ate the burger, then I would listen
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: to everything they said. If they declined the burger, then
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: I would say, you see, it's concerning, But I would.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: Only believe the hoaxers after they ate my burger.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: But I haven't made it because I feel like I
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: would be criticized for having.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: That burger around.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, i'd write like, don't eat on the pack.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 7: It was the famous clip in the UK of the
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 7: politician giving his little daughter a burger right in the
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 7: hearts of the BSc epidemic says.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, wow, that's my guy right there. Yeah, and
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: you where your money is in as much as I
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: recently ate CWD infected meat without knowing it and then
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: had like an uncomfortable text message for my friend telling me,
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: and then I had to text my body who was
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: with me at his house. Right if someone made me
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: the burger I'm talking about still today, after hearing your
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: news still today, I would be like, man, I don't
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: want it. I just don't want that burger. Huh, all right,
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: thank you very much for coming on. I appreciate the
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: work you're doing. Uh. I'm sure you have all kinds
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: of motivations to do your work. But but on behalf
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: of hunters and on behalf of consumers of deer meat.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you for looking into this. This is just the
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: kind of information we need to make responsible decisions. So
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: I appreciate it.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 7: Thank you for having me great.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: Thanks Catherine, thank you.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: Play the clip.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 4: Phil Oh goodness, I feel like I need to sit
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 4: with that.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: Listen. I've been sitting with it. I read Jim Robbins article.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of there's a lot of subjects where
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: you you you know, they pop up in the news
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: every now and then and you're like, I've I've seen
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: this before, I've seen this before. And then you get
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: that and it's like a it's like a drug, it's
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: like a new a new information.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 4: Well that's truly the new.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you don't get new information on c W d E.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 5: And we just got something that's.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: Like the least full of shit lady on the planet
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: to best the vibe that was electric.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 4: Clipped on.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: Like if you put me like if I was going
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: to rate people full of shit, like I would be like,
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: oh there, you know, I mean she's like down there, man. Yeah,
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: play a clip this guy. Now, this just watched this
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: guy for his hosting abilities.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: I'm not joking.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: This guy is mesmerizing to me.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 9: Play a clip phill haunting aspect of the recent bear
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 9: killing of Anthony Polio in Glacier National Park is that
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 9: he did deploy bear spray, but.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: It still killed him.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 9: I've heard that yesterday from a customer who read an article,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 9: and today a member of that actually works for Glacier
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 9: National Park.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: Came by and said the same thing.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 9: Now I have made on James Wellow's YouTube and I
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 9: released it here on Facebook five times when bear spray
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 9: won't help you, and it would be helpful if you
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 9: viewed that video. The guy who worked for the park
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 9: service came in today and said that when they were
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 9: searching for Anthony Polio, even though it was a two
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 9: or three days later, part of the way that they
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 9: found him is that they smelled the bear spray and
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 9: went over to where the incident occurred and found his body.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: Great so, as promised, the pistol v. Bear spray debate
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: rages on a little more background. As you know, we
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: got that gentleman covered it pretty well. But a young
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: man named Anthony Polio from Florida. He lives in Central Florida.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: Now I think he's from South Florida. Originally I was
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: reading he works as a church Deacon. He was killed
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: on this spring. He was killed on the way up
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: to the Mount Brown Fire lookout in Glacier National Park.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: Right before he killed, he left his dad a phone message.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: It's kind of haunting, idea. He just killed two point
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: five miles from the trailhead. A couple little tidbits here
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: that are worth pointing out before I get into the
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: bare spray idea. When that happened first, it is just
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: an axe to grind. When that happened, it was pointed
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: out the first in the park in twenty five years.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: Like it's like, it's so rare. It hasn't happened in
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: the park in twenty five years. But that is a
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: demonstration of what I think of as national park syndrome,
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: which is thinking like taking Yellowstone, Glacier or whatever, Yosemite
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: and drawing it off as though that this is a
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: world unto itself, and what happens within these arbitrary borders
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: somehow is different than what happens outside of these borders.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: So when you're pointing out first in the park in
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: twenty five years, okay, but not the first in a while,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: so you have, you know, a bear killed someone in
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: Montana in twenty three, a bear killed someone in Montana.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: In twenty twenty two.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: Bears grizzy bears killed two people in Montana in twenty
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: twenty one. Just last year, August of twenty five, a
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: guy was killed in British Columbia, forty eight miles from
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: the border. So by pointing out these things like in
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: the park as though the park is something that does
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: that exists in and of itself, is a little like
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: just misleading and goofy. I would much rather speak about
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: these things out of ecosystem, like yeah, like and I
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: hate the word. I hate the fact that Yellowstone is
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: in this, but it's the best servable op serviceable words
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: like the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem, which is a chunk of
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: ground the size of Indiana.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 5: There's definitely probably tourists out there that like, feel much
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 5: different about walking around in Yellowstone then a solo elk
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 5: hunter might feel about walking around solo in Paradise Valley, you.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 4: Know what I mean. They're like, oh, it could never
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 4: happen to.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: Me, because they create this idea, They create this idea
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: that that somehow is a distinct place, right, this gentleman
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: that was killed his father even suggested, like just to
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: kind of give you like if you think of national
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: park syndrome. And I don't mean this would be critical him.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: He just lost his son, but he suggested, and speaking
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: to a journalist from the New York Times, he suggested
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: that all of the grizzlies in Glacier should be fitted
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: with a GPS chip. And had they done that, this
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: would have never happened because they would have been able
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: to notify people where the bear was and like that
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: someone would have the idea that that was even possible.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: Comes from this idea of that these parks are these
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: distinct things with hard edges, rather than the fact that
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: the animals have no idea. They moved in an out.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 4: I'm not that soft.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: This is a big park guy.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 6: Yeah, But like there, the Glacier has over three million
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 6: visitors a year because people aren't messing around out on
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 6: national forests for the most part, maybe a few of them,
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 6: but like those three million go to Glacier and they
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 6: recreat in Glacier. This is just like a statistic that
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 6: they're keeping. And be like, we had a shooting in
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 6: Bozeman recently, you wouldn't like assign that to Belgrade. You
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 6: know the town a few miles away, even though you're
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 6: like it's all the same community or whatever.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, so does the guy that got killed by a
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: grizzly just north of Yellowstone Park. So then when someone
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: gets attacked in the park, they're like, no one's been
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: attacked this park for blinkeny blank years. You're like, well,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: guy has got killed six miles in the park.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 6: Yeah, but that's just like the statistic for Yellowstone. Like
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 6: I'm not I'm not that bothered by it, Like no, no, no,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 6: no again.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: Three million people national park syndrome, three.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 6: Million people visit. I think you have national park syndrome.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 4: Oh it's national park arrangements.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: Yes, I think they should be wilderness areas. Guilty, I
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: have to arrangement. I had some kind of analogy I
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: thought of this morning, but I can't remember what it was. Okay,
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: allow me to think about it for a minute.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 6: I'm just had that bothered by like the step being
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 6: like it's the first fatal grizzly attack in Glacier and.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: Thirty I would say the Northern Continental Divide ecosystem. When
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: you say, like it has been happening a glacier, Okay,
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: but a grizzly killed someone in Ovando.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: Oh, here's my analogy. A woman was killed a bike.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: A bicyclist on a long bicycle track journey stopped and
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: set up a tent near the post office in Ovando.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: A grizzly dragged her out and killed her.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 4: So what I say in the last few years?
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: Would I go and say, this is the first ever
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: grizzly bear attack in Ovando, which is like a couple
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: miles wide, Sure? Or would I say a northern Continental
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: divide ecosystem attack. I don't because, of course in Ovando
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: next to the post office. Sure, it's the first one
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: in a long time. In fact, I don't know when
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: the last person got killed at the post office Novando was.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 4: But who are you specifically mad about?
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 6: Because, like I'm looking at an article right now in
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 6: the world, they give you all that context. They talk
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 6: about the Ovando thing in here, they talk about like
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 6: other attacks that have happened in Canada.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 4: So just like, who is the person.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: I believe we should talk about grizzly attacks? This is
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: relevant to a very few small number of people. I
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: would say going forward, if I was the emperor of
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: the world on wildlife issues, a role I would like.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: I would say, from now on, we will speak of
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: these bears in their DPS terminology distinct population segment terminology,
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: which would be the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem, the Northern Continental
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: Divide ecosystem, the Cabinet Yack ecosystem, Northern Cascade ecosystem, et cetera.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: That is how I would catalog attacks, that is how
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: I would speak about it. That's not the point I'm
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: trying to get to, Okay. The point I'm trying to
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: get to is now it has relivened. Like even a
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: friend of mine, a friend of mine text me, I
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: will never trust bear spray ever, because this guy discharged
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: the spray. If you look this kid that was killed polio,
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: there were accounts that his spray was found nearby, and
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: there were accounts that his spray was found still clutched
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: in his hand, his pepper spray. He definitely discharged the spray.
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: His father, who might have additional information that hasn't been
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: released in the public because the person from Montana Fishwild
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: for Parks who's investigating this incident isn't talking yet. The
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: kid's father might have more information. The kid's father said
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: to a journalist. He thinks his kid hose the bear
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: and then ran and the bear caught up with him.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know where he's getting that, but the idea
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: so people like it doesn't work. But here's the point.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: Part of the point. The guy that was killed forty
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: eight miles from the USBC board, forty eight miles north
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: of the USBC border, shot the bear that killed him. Yeah,
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: shot in the hip. It killed the bear. It killed
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: the bear, but the bear killed him.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 4: There's nothing on it can and the.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: Words of hatchet Jack, it killed the bar that killed me.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 5: There's nothing on a can of bear spray that says
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 5: guaranteed to stop a grizzly from killing him.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: That's the way people are treating they know. I'm like,
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: I have I carry a sig ten millimeter when I
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: think there's high likelihood of grizzly action and I carry spray.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: This is my own little stupid math problem. I don't know.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know why I can't defend it. I carry spray,
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: whether there's a casual chance of bear action. I don't
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: know why. It's just dumb. This is what I do.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: It just works in my mind.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 4: Do you remember when that.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 5: Bear was walking up the hill towards us on the
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 5: moose hunt, and Cook was holding the rifle in one
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 5: hand in bear spray, and I said, you better pick.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 4: One or the other.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: This is so funny. We're sitting on a hill, We're
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: looking out and there's this grizzly coming across this flat
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: and it gets into the wheels right below us, and
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: I'm like, that bear is gonna be here in a
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: second in our laps. I'm sure it was. So this
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: this thing that comes out where it's like reinforcing this idea,
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: but this cuts both ways. Neither of these things are perfect.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: There was a case a couple that there was just
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: a few years ago. There's a guy that two guys
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: are bear hunt black bear hunting. They miss, They misidentify
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: a grizzly bear. A guy shoots the grizzly bear, thinking
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: it's a black bear. The bear runs into the butt
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: brush they go in there after it. The wounded grizzly
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: now attacks one of the hunters. The other hunter goes
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: to kill the grizzly off his buddy, but instead mortally
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: wounds the buddy. The buddy dies of a gunshot wound,
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: not a bear attack. That's why if you go look
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: at bear attack fatalities, he's not on the list. So
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: do you then go, ha.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 3: Guns don't work.
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: No, Because it's like everything, none of this is perfect.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: None of this is perfect. But the fact that this
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: guy discharged spray does it. You can't draw a conclusion
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: from this because you go even to other attack. There
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: was another attack in Montana in Yellstone Park, well the
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: Greater Yellstone Ecosystem. The woman was scratched up by a bear. Well,
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: why why did the mauling stop because her buddy hose
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: the bear. We've had two people on this show who
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: were mauled by grizzly bears and the mauling stopped when
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: when they hosed it. One holsed it on purpose. It
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: was maul in the back of her neck, and she
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: stuck it in her face over her shoulder without even
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: looking at it and hosed it over her shoulder and
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: it ran off. Another person that sat right in the studio.
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: He didn't hose it the bear. It was in his hand.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: The bear went to bite his hand, bit through the
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: can and blew it up in its face and the
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: attack stopped. Yeah, all these things are imperfect.
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 5: They're saying that he deployed it. It doesn't mean he
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 5: hit the bear.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: Doesn't It doesn't mean he hit in the face. Yeah. Yeah,
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: he could have deployed it with the wind in his face, right.
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 4: He could been rolling around on the ground with bear.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: Spray shooting over the place. Or he's sitting there in
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: ten mile an hour wind and pH and the window
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: sends it right back to him. It could be I
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: don't know. It could be that he hosed himself. Yeah,
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: we'll probably know later. I don't know. But to to
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: draw big conclusions from this about the efficacy of spray,
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: or to draw big conclusions about the efficacy of guns
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: from other instances, they're all imperfect.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you show me someone who's a very
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: strong opinion, airtight opinion one way or the other. I
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: could find a one example to support that, and I
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: could find another example that would disprove your strategy.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 6: The dismissiveness from the video we watch would be like
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 6: if someone died in a horrific car accident, You're like, well,
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 6: seat belts and air bags yep.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, they're not cutting it, yep, And that happen And.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: Last time I trust those things yeah, or oh, you
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: can go on all day. You could run all day
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: with these.
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: Now that there's people that, I mean, I have people
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: every now and then ask me do you carry a
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: gun or do you carry bear spray? And I say both,
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: and I'll say both at all times, and they say no.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: Sometimes they carry one. Sometimes they can't sell. I can't
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: really explain one way or the other. But I don't
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: feel I'm worse off for having a cannabar spray and
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: my gun. I you know, like I don't always want
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: to carry my gun. And if I'm in a place
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: where I don't think it's going to be you know,
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: we're gonna have a shootout, I'm not going to bring it.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: But and it's not full.
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, if I'm a Griz country and I got
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: an elk or a moose or something half butchered, yeah,
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: and I'm going back in the next day. Oh yeah,
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: spooky pistol drawn, buddy pistol drawn, not spray. If I
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: only had spray, I had the spray. But again, I
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: can't tell you it's all like it's all there's a
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: big monumental masturbation in all this. It just makes me
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: feel better.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 4: The only one who knows what happens to bear right.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can't interview them.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: If we could get a if we could get a
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: some sort of a powder, pistol powder that also made
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 2: a big cloud of.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: Oh when you shoot it, yeah, it shoots a bullet
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: and a bunch of spray in both worlds. Yeah, let's
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: go down and work on that and then get reside.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: Never invented anything, I'm going to try to invent that.
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: I've got a notebook full of of inventions. I'm done.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 3: That's all I wanted to say.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: Well, uh, there's a lot of data centers in the news,
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: and that's.
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: Never a truer statement was spoken. And it's not.
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: It's not because they're you know, like there's all this
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: hysteria about it, like there's just a lot of data
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: centers and a huge rush of data centers being constructed.
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: So two headlines that are pertinent at the moment to
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: our audience. One is that the Potomac River was named
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: the number one most endangered river of twenty twenty six.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: There was a big sewage spell sewage spill, but American
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 2: rivers said it would have been number one anyway because
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: of how.
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: Intensely.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: Data centers are operating and being constructed in the Potomac Watershed.
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: There are three hundred data centers in the Potomac Watershed
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: nine They use nine percent of the water annually, including
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: twelve percent of like water used twelve percent in the summer.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: Loudin County. I'm probably butchering the pronunciation has the highest
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: concentration of data centers in the world, one hundred and
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: ninety nine currently operating and thirteen percent of the global
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: data center capacity in just one county in Virginia. So
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: the Potomac being the number one most endangered river is
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: one headline. The other headline is folks have probably seen
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: the state of Alaska's moving forward with a fifty year
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: lease for a proposed AI data center on Alaska's north slope.
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: And this would be I think twenty some miles south
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: of a lot of the oil infrastructure, so it's it's
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: very far north in Alaska. It's a five hundred million
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 2: dollar development, and it will consume twice as much natural
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: gas as is used for electricity and heating across Alaska's
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: entire urban grid. What they haven't so one one thing
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 2: to note about that the gas they don't pump natural
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: gas in large quantities or you know, in any amount
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: off the north slope, so a lot of that gas
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: wouldn't be used if this thing didn't go in up
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: there and burn the game.
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: It's a byproduct. Yeah, so that's that's part that bothers me.
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: This is a huge I mean basically like this is
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: the north slope. One is sort of an interesting case
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: because given the latitude, it's going to use a lot
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: less water than the industry standard. There's some estimate saying
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: ninety percent less because just cold, because it's cold. And
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: so the three concerns that you know, if you're reading
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: about data centers, the three interrelated concerns are water usage,
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: electricity consumption, and the actual footprint of the facility. The
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: electricity consumption is huge because they're powering all these machines.
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: Then they need to cool those machines because there's using
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: so much energy, and that's where the water comes in.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: And then the footprint just for efficiency's sake, like they
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: have to cite all of this stuff in a condensed area.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 4: But there's also like industrial pollution concerns.
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's also that there's also that.
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: So big picture.
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 2: I guess I read something recently and it's you know,
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: there have there have been data centers for a long
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: time that store like the videos you're watching or your
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: Google Drive documents and all that stuff. But AI is
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: uh requires exponentially more computer power. And all of these companies,
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 2: the you know, the Metas of the world, the Googles
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: of the world, they're dumping all of their chips in
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: the the AI game.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: And so.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: He gave up on his metaverse.
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but there, but it was so cool.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: It was so cool that the dory world and the
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 2: growth of these things is just crazy. They're they're they're
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: saying that this is the largest growth in power demand
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: since post World War two era in terms of demand
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: on the grid. AI data centers can use as much
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: power as one hundred thousand homes or more metas building
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: one in Louisiana that will draw twice the power of
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: the entire city of New Orleans.
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: My god.
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: Another meta facility in Wyoming will draw more power than
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: every residential property in the state combined. And we're expected
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: to double or triple energy use in the very near future.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: So so like there's even if you get beyond the
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: facilities themselves, like the demand that they're putting on for
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: new power plants to come online. Nuclear reactors seem to
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: be sort of the what folks are hoping will solve
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: this problem. But in the meantime, a lot of its
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: natural gas China is it's obviously a race with China.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: Their advantage is in power they have. They have a
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: lot more power than us and our you know, we
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: see all these headlines, like basically every headline that you've
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: seen in the past few years about our grid being
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: outdated or route all this stuff, like it all ties
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 2: into this question of data centers and it can exacerbate
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: drought obviously. Like there's a huge one going up in
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 2: Utah that mister wonderful Kevan O'Leary is behind. It's going
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: to occupy speaking of that footprint, it's going to occupy
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: forty thousand acres and Mike will release the equivalent of
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: twenty three atomic bombs worth of thermal energy in a
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: single day. A physics professor at Utah State estimates it
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: all warm daytime temperatures by two to five degrees and
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: nighttime temperatures between eight to twelve degrees. Some estimates think
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: within what it's putting off so.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 4: Much energy that making a microclimate.
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: It's making a microclimate in the area around there, so daytime,
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: I mean like a pretty expansive area.
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: Not just like so, I guess, like.
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 3: You know the term nimby.
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: Not in the backyard. I'm a nimp. I just invented that.
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: A nimp not in my country. It's like, I just don't.
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to go away. Yeah, I was fine.
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: I was fine. I hate the stuff. I hate all
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: the environmental destruction for this.
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 2: I said about looking into these two headlines, and it's
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 2: like an onion. The more layers you peel back, there's more,
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 2: there's even more stuff to untangle, right, Not that you
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 2: untangle parts of an onion, you just an environmental nationalist.
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 2: But yeah, there's so. There's another story. In Georgia, residents
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 2: in a subdivision complained about low water pressure. The county
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: revealed that two industrial scale water hookups had been connected
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 2: to the power to the water supply connected to a
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: data center. One had been installed without informing the water utility,
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 2: and the other one hadn't been builled. So collectively that
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: drained thirty million gallons in less than a year out
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: of this water supply without paying for it.
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: Here's why.
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 2: It's just this unbelievably sprawling concern that that like will
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: affect habitat and water and all these things.
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 3: But I got a question that maybe you can answer this.
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: But this is why I want to get a really good,
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: like a really good you know that CWD scientists, I
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: want to get hurt. Sure on data centers. Sure, we
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: talk about using water, but see if you're just using
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: water for cooling, you have a discharge. This is one
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 1: of the problems with like coal fire generator plants or
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: nuclear plants. You're using tons of water for cooling, and
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: then the problem, often the environmental problem is you're putting
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: it right back where it came from, right, But you're
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: putting it back where it came from hot right, So
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: you have a hot water discharge or a warm water discharge,
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 1: which can lead to all kinds of problems.
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 3: Rough fish like it.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: Sometimes good fish like it, but it can lead to
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: problems because you're you're changing water temperatures, so the water's
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: not vanishing.
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 4: But it could be polluted.
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it could be I mean anybody, but is that true?
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: Well? Is it polluted?
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: There are cases, I mean any sort of concern that
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: you have. I guarantee you can find a headline in
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: the past two months where there's some instance of this,
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: just because of the scale of change that's.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 4: Happening right now.
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: But some of them have closed systems, like they're circulating
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: water through a closed system. I believe the one that
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: they're talking about doing in the North Slope would be
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 2: a closed system, but not all of them.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: But why are you not And I'm not asking you
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: to answer this for me, but picture that you're drawing
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: from an aquifer. Do we have the technical capabilities to
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: pull it up, cool and put it back in the aquifer?
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: I can't answer that. I mean, I know there's concerns
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 2: about contaminating the water that's going through all this piping leaching.
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: But the water that you drink when through your pipes,
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: that's true. So I don't know. I'm not trying to
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: make a point. I would love to have someone explain
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 1: this better to me, because I just need to understand.
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: I also think like one of the concerns with them
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: is that the same time that they need to be
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: cooled the most intensively is during the summer, and that's
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 2: also a time when water levels are low and rivers,
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: and there's also just you know, irrigation demands and all
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: this stuff, so they sort of have this compounding effects
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: on existing water shortages.
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: And when you're using water to cool, what's happening is
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: you're putting the heat into the water. Yeah, how if
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: water's coming in into a data center, it's coming in
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: at I'll pull a number. I can picture it's coming
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: in at fifty degrees. Is it leaving at fifty two?
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: Is it leaving at one hundred and two? I couldn't
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: tell you that this is I know, I'm not trying
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: to cost your balls. No, this is one of the
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 1: things I wonder about. Yes, this is why I want
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: to get I need to get someone on the show,
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 1: on the interview show. I need to get someone that's
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: real solid on this ship.
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 5: Well, the nimby thing that you talked about, well, I'm
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 5: saying nimby with these things like you mentioned in Georgia
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 5: where there was like low water pressure, Like that's kind
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 5: of what scares me because when people get sick of
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 5: these things being in their backyard, like a logical step
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 5: could be with the right like people behind it in
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 5: Washington saying like well, let's put these things on public
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 5: land right ohay away from where people are going to
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 5: be pissed about it.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: You feel like Zccerberg bought that island in Hawaii and
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: he goes out there surfs around and those goofy glasses
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: and stuff. Do you I bet he's not putting one
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: on that island. No, No, It'll be like these are
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: the dudes. These are the dudes that they will never
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 1: even see one of these things, right, It's not going
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: to be in their backyard.
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 2: I mean with something like this too. Ideally, Like the
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: problem is the best place to put massive facilities like
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 2: this from a habitat standpoint is on landscapes that are
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 2: already developed or already disturbed. You know, Like the best
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 2: place to do any sort of development is where development
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 2: has already occurred. So you're not chewing up farmland, and
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: you're not chewing up for us.
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 3: It's like whatever neighborhood in the Bay Area all these.
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 2: So I like walking away from my limited research on this.
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 2: It's one of those things when I see it in
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: the news, I kind of roll my eyes and I'm like, God,
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 2: I'm sick of hearing about data centers.
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 1: But I'm not.
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: The more you the more you read about them, you
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 2: sort of come to the realization that it's not stopping.
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: So we just need to be clear out about the
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 2: potential risks for habitat and wildlife, you know, because it's
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 2: just going to be an ongoing conversation that's probably going
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: to get bigger and bigger in the year's ahead.
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 3: We got to do too quick hits.
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 1: Yep, uh, We're gonna do two quick hits because then
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: we we got to get into fishing records, which is
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: what we're all here to hear about.
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 6: My computer died, so we should just punt that segment
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 6: to next week.
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: They they took all his power the data center.
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 4: They did first case.
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 1: This is when it gets real. This is when it
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: gets real.
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 3: Can't plug it in.
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 4: I don't see a charger in this room.
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 1: You're really gonna quit because your computer died.
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 6: Also, I before my computer even died, I wrote in
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 6: the script that I think we should Oh that was you,
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 6: that was me, Well, I said my parenthesis.
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 4: He's just hoping there's another record next week.
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: But you're a delman not somewhat quick. If you're a
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: fellow that reads the news and you're always seeing like
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 1: data centers, blah blah blah. Lately you've been seeing nothing
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 1: but cyanide bombs. They're putting cyanide bombs out on the
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 1: public LANDIL is gonna pull up a picture. Spencer's guilty.
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: This I am they If you're seeing stuff about the
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: Trump administration is putting cyanide bombs on public land, it's
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 1: like hold on a minute, Hold on a minute. A
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 1: cyanide bomb. It's it's the same mentality is calling CWD
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 1: the zombie dear disease. It's the same mentality. You're taking
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: a term in a p okay. It's like, let's say
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: you oppose the inheritance tax. What do you go, what
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: do you do? I'll tell what you do death. You
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: say a death tax. They're even going to tax you
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: when you're dead because you want to rebrand it. Cyanide
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: bombs are not cyanide bombs. They are canine past ejectors,
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 1: rolls off the tongue. It's just let's just at least
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: be honest about what we're talking about. There's a there's
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: a very fine debate to be had about whether they
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: should they're called M forty fours, whether you should use it,
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: whether they should be using M forty four devices out
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: on public land. I got a lot to say about it,
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 1: but please stop with the cyanide bomb thing.
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 6: Yeah, there's there's two like parts of the language you
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 6: should avoid we're talking about. One is calling them a bomb.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 6: There's no explosion. It's it's a spring loaded ejector that
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 6: sends the cyanide into whatever it's it's.
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: Hitting crystallized, crystallized form. Yeah.
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 6: The other one is calling it a cloud of cyanide.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 6: That's another thing you don't do. There's no cloud of gas.
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 6: It's not just like spreading this across the landscape. It
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 6: is a solid capsule that is then ejecting the the
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 6: I assume it's like a powder form, like if you.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: A granular, granular form that mixes with saliva.
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and that that goes directly into the kyote's mouth.
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 6: There is no like haphazard green fumes coming from one
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 6: of these things. So you don't call it a bomb,
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 6: and you don't say it's a cloud of gas.
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: Our diagram does show gas, no crystals. It's cyanide gas.
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: That's what it makes when it mixes with saliva powder.
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: M hmm it's like what it makes when it mixes
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: with saliva.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: Did I say say anything wrong? Gas in the diagram.
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 1: When it mixes. If I put powdered sugar in your mouth,
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: what's gonna happen to that powdered sugar? Is it going
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: to turn into ciani? Is going to form a liquid? Right?
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: So do you go that's not powdered sugar. That's a liquid. No,
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: it's powdered sugar. Once it's in your mouth, it's a liquid.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: Once it comes in contact with your saliva, it liquefies. Sure,
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: you could, you could dislike M forty Four's all you want,
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: but let's just be clear about what they are and
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: stop talking about them in some bullshit way.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 2: I didn't say anything other than there is cyanide gas
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 2: at some point in this process, because it's.
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 3: As in our diagram.
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 1: Yes, once the crystals come in contact with a liquid,
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: there's a gas produced that is inhaled by the animal
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: and it kills it. You're not trying to sugarcoat back
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: to powdered sugar. I'm not trying to sugarcoat anything. It's
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: just stop calling it that because when you're calling people America,
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 1: because when they're calling it that they're trying to vilify
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: something in a way that that's dishonest.
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 5: These things are also those things are also not new, right,
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 5: They've been around forever ever, not ever, but they were
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 5: they're banned during late in the Biden administration, so they're
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 5: whatever a couple of years they've been banned, but but
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 5: they've been to use for years.
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: But that's a that's a that's that's part of the
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 1: problem with headline writing in America. They've they were legal
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: for decades. They had a directive on to the Biden
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 1: administration that they wouldn't be able to use them. And
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 1: these aren't public These aren't like Joe Blower don't use
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: these like right like wildlife services or apist is able
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: to use these. They're not like, you know, it's buying
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: with thump. You know, you don't go to the hardware
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 1: store and buy an M forty four. It's a professional
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 1: tool for protecting livestock from predators, which you could be
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: four or against. Let's just be honest about what it is.
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: It's a tool like that. There was always legal, and
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: then under the Biden administration they put a moratorium on it,
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: and the MORATORI has been lifted. So whenever this happens,
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: what happens is you then report Trump. Once the Bayan
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: night bombs.
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 5: There was and there was an incident I think that
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 5: kind of spurred the banning, Like there was a kid
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 5: in Idaho is out with his dog. Somehow they were
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 5: both inspecting this thing or looking at it.
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 4: The dog and the kid did not The dog killed
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 4: the dog.
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, he got a settlement of one hundred and fifty
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: one thousand dollars.
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 4: So like, sure, there's a possibility that's something bad.
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 1: Okay, But here's the deal on this, here's the deal
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: on this. What kills more dogs? This is like another
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 1: case of intellectual dishonesty. What kills more dogs? Kyotes? Or
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: M forty fours? Sure, so all of these, all of
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: these organizations, Project Coyote, Center for Biological Diversity, Defenders of Wildlife,
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: all these organizations that petition against M forty four's and
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: they always like to go to the dead dog. But
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: when dogs kill kyotes, where are they if they are
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: so interested in dead dogs, where are they? Yeah, they
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: don't have a thing to say about that because they
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: don't actually care about that dog. They just don't care
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 1: about the dog, they leverage it. They leverage it because
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 1: they care about predator control. So just be more honest.
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 5: What's pretty interesting is there there's I've got an article
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 5: here from the Casper newspaper Wyoming and a woman from
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 5: the Wyoming Wildlife Advocates, which I'm assuming is is not
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 5: a pro four group. They're indiscriminate. They kill anything that
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 5: comes across them. There's no way that anybody needs that
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 5: to protect their livestock. There are other ways to do it.
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 5: It's cyanide. That's a tool of war, not something that
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 5: needs to be used to protect livestock. And here's the
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 5: interesting part, because she's trying to get hunters on her side.
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 5: They're just asking for sporting dogs to get killed, like
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 5: you know, hitting up the guys that are out there
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 5: with bird dogs.
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, now, by yeah, this this directive the interior departments
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 1: being a little koi because they're sort of saying no, no, no, no,
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 1: we're not saying go use them. Yeah, there still has
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 1: to be NEPA and all their steps, but they're basically
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 1: undoing the restriction. They're not mandating that they be used.
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: They're eliminating a barrier to using them. So it's safe
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: to assume that on a case by case basis they
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: may start using M forty four's on BLM to protect property.
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 1: There's supposed to be somewhat canine specific because there's like
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 1: a biton poll there's a Biden pole function that needs
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: to happen to trigger them.
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 6: Another detail you when you're talking about Biden outlawing them
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 6: or Trump allowing them that specific to federal land, Like,
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 6: there's still states that throughout the ban, we're using these
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 6: things that I don't think we're impacted by on state
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 6: outlaw or being.
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 1: Allowed, and there are states that have state laws that
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: they can't be used in the state. Yeah, exactly. So
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: it's and again, man, I think you know not that
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: I'm the arbiter of what should be an allowable debate.
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 1: There's a lot to debate here. It's just the bullshit
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 1: gets piled down so thick around this subject that people
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: can't even see clearly anymore. Yep, Like the rhetoric gets
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: so ridiculous and the posturing gets so ridiculous, the people
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 1: aren't having insane conversation about it. Yeah.
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 6: I've also heard that in some of these instances where
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 6: a human deploys one accidentally that they're like some missing
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 6: context there about the person was trespassing, or they are
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 6: required by certain laws to have two signs within fifteen feet.
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 1: Of feet now it's fifteen ft and.
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 6: They have to be bilingual. And when you hear about
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 6: these going off accidentally in something that's not a coyotes mouth,
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 6: like the signs weren't there, or someone was walking in
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 6: a place that they weren't allowed to be. That's that's
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 6: like a common element in this story.
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if you see the setup, I mean it's it's
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 1: they're marked with a big sign.
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 2: They're bilingual in German for the attack dogs.
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: Their thing you gotta look at is you wind up
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: in this kind of stuff. You always look and you say,
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 1: like is it a popular is it a population level impact?
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 1: So when you build let's say you build a data
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 1: center and you're putting up a ton of you're putting
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 1: a bunch of concrete on the ground. You are absolutely
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: killing wildlife and you're destroying wildlife habitat the question would
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: be is it a population level impact? When you put
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: up wind turbans, so wind power generating turbines, they kill birds,
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: but that industry will say, but it's not a population
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: level impact. Cars kill raccoons, but it's not a population
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: level impact. So from a from a wildlife management view,
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: you would say, yes, it's killing some, but it's not
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 1: a population level impact. And when you're looking at the
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 1: M forty four stuff, you'll see, oh, wolves could get
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 1: it or whatever could get it. They're not having population
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 1: level impacts. So that's another thing to keep in mind.
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 1: And I keep paying one side of the story, but
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 1: I'll play the other side for a story. We have
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: a terrible legacy of poisoning wildlife, and we poison wildlife
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 1: for over a century and wiped out a lot of
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 1: species and extirpated a lot of species across native range
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: through poisoning. So pun intended at leaves a bad taste
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 1: in people's mouth. Poisoning there's a reasonable there's reason to
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 1: recoil at the idea of poisoning predators because our legacy
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 1: of poisoning predators is bad. We did a lot of
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 1: damage with indiscriminate use of poisons, and so even when
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 1: it's a discriminate use of poisons, it can rile folks up.
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know, especially if they're not getting the full
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 2: story from the news coverage.
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 4: We're moving on.
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: I'm done.
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 4: Here's the headline.
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 5: I thought i'd never hear Wyoming reducing wolf quotas for
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 5: twenty four. If you're familiar with Wyoming and their relationship
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 5: with wolves, that might seem surprising.
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 2: Is it to preserve the age class?
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the trophy.
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 5: Wyoming Wildlife managers are proposing major reductions to the states
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 5: twenty twenty six wolf hunting quotas. A widespread canine distemper
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 5: outbreak caused one of the sharpest wolf population declines in
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 5: the Greater Yellowstone ecosystems since they were introduced there in
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 5: the mid nineteen nineties. If you're not familiar canine distemper,
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 5: it's a viral disease affecting all kinds of canine species, wolves, coyotes, foxes, themes,
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 5: domestic dogs, and it's especially lethal to puppies. Highly contagious,
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 5: incurable affects the respiratory, gastro intestinal, and nervous systems. Most
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 5: like if a dog's infected with it, it's going to
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 5: die within two to four weeks. Dogs can survive it,
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 5: but they generally will suffer from permanent neurological damage like
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 5: Caesar's paralysis. Canine December is not new in the Yellowstone area.
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 5: There's been several distemper outbreaks in the region in the
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 5: past twenty years, but they're smaller flare ups that didn't
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 5: cause like major mortality events like this. This past winter
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 5: and according to state and federal monitoring of Wyoming's wolf population,
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 5: it declined from roughly three hundred and thirty wolves in
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 5: twenty twenty four to two hundred and fifty three entering
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 5: twenty twenty six. Breeding pairs drop from twenty four to fourteen.
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 7: And the.
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 5: Wyoming has two different like wolf hunting zones. One's called
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 5: the Troll I'll explain this more, but can you pull
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 5: up that map, Phil, There's what they call the Trophy
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 5: Area in northwestern Wyoming that declined to one hundred and
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 5: thirty wolves, and that area in the northwest part of
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 5: the state is where they have to maintain a target
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 5: of approximately one hundred and sixty wolves or they get
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 5: in trouble with the Feds and wolves going back on
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 5: the ESA. So that's why this is very concerning to
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 5: Wyoming's wildlife managers. It's not necessarily that they're worried about
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 5: this wolf decline in general, it's that if there's not.
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 4: Enough wolves in that area around.
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 5: Yellowstone, which you'll also hear that called the recovery area
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 5: back when the wolves were managed federally rather than by
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 5: the state of Wyoming. So right now it's below that
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 5: target of one hundred and sixty wolves. Distemper exposure was
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 5: detected in sixty four sixty four percent of wolves captured
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 5: during moderning work. Wolf pup survival dropped dramatically, which affected
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 5: recruitment into the adult population and estimated thirty one to
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 5: thirty four pups out of eighty seven documented pups statewide
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 5: survive so less.
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 1: Man, you'd think that the people that are so hysterical
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: all the time about a wolf getting killed by a hunter,
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 1: they got shit in their pants.
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, And this is the first time they've seen
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 5: like a population event, like level event like this.
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 1: What it bes like really with all the consternation about
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: managed wolf hunting somehow putting wolves back on the e
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 1: s A list, as much as that was like pushed
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 1: and pushed and pushed, Yep, it'd really be something if
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 1: it wound up being a naturally occurring wildlife disease. Yeah,
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: put them back on.
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 5: The way exactly, and the like they in the research
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 5: I was doing, they make a point to say that
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 5: like hunting is not causing population level declines, like it's
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 5: in that they're highly managed in that that trophy zone.
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 4: How many get killed there each year?
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 5: Well, it was the quota was twenty was forty four,
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 5: and they didn't even They only killed thirty one out
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 5: of forty four last year, so they didn't even meet
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 5: the quota. They're proposing to drop that quota to twenty two,
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 5: so they want to cut it in half.
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 1: Are they fixing to keep the rest of the state
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 1: as basically like a vermin kyote.
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 5: Yeah, they don't, like they don't need to manage them
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 5: for a minimum in the rest, it's only that that
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 5: recovery area of trophy game management.
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So if you're not will be able to look
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: at the graphic pill has pulled up here.
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 3: Basically the top eighth, so the top left.
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 1: Or northwest corner of the state, comprising about an eighth
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 1: of the state of Wyoming, which is pre Damn Rectangler,
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: is wolf trophy game management area, and the rest of
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 1: the state is just predatory management area or the predator
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 1: zone where the wolves are open all the time. They're
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 1: managed like a coyote in seven eighths of Wyoming, roughly
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 1: seven eighths of Wyoming excluding the corner of the state
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 1: which touches on Yellowstone National Park and Grand Teeton National Park.
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 5: YEP, and the State of Wyoming has an agreement with
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 5: the US Fish and Wildlife Service to maintain those minimum
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 5: number of wolves and minimum number of breeding pairs inside
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 5: that trophy zone. Yeah, they took pretty drastic action to
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 5: make sure that wolves don't end up becoming federally managed
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 5: and in the state of Wyoming, which which might seem
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 5: like counterintuitive for a state like Wyoming. It might seem
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 5: like they don't want any wolves, but they're doing what
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 5: they need to do to maintain them as a managed
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 5: state managed game animal, which is pretty cool.
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 6: Yeah, everybody's fulfilling their role there. Yea, Like the state
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 6: is doing their part and the FEDS are like doing
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 6: their thing about saying we expect this many animals. All
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 6: the numbers you said, though, are like half as big
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 6: as I thought they would be. A total number, the
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 6: total number of that are killed, the total number that
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 6: live there, what the quota is I assumed I would
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 6: have put two X on all loans.
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 1: I was just guessing.
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 4: Yep. So there you go.
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 5: If you're looking to kill a wolf in the Trophy
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 5: Zone and Wyoming this year, it's gonna be a little harder.
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 3: Okay, everybody day.
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 1: Tune next next week for Spencer's fishing records.
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 4: Report and a charge computer.
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 3: He's gonna charge up, He's gonna be ready.
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 4: They might get another record between now and then.
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 1: Uh, do me a favorite. As you're wrapping up listening,
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 1: Uh go go subscribe to the Meat Eater podcast YouTube channel.
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 1: Please or wherever you listen, go follow wherever you listen
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 1: so you can stay up on the news with the
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 1: news show me Eater's news show. So subscribe on the
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 1: podcast YouTube channel and follow wherever you listen, and stay
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 1: tuned for more on Spencer's breaking fishing records coming soon.
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 6: Y