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Debt And Relationships: When money becomes personal · The Swan Effect - Creating and Sustaining Your Financial Wellbeing

• 0:00
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Your legacy isn't just about numbers, it's about the confidence that comes with knowing your wealth is expertly managed. At Old Mutual Wealth, we offer solutions that go beyond investment management.
• 0:12
  Arthi Rabikrisson: We're your trusted partner in achieving financial success.
• 0:17
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Together with your financial planner, we uncover what matters most to you, crafting a personalized plan tailored to your unique goals, backed by a team dedicated to your wealth journey. We provide innovative strategies, in-depth research, and award-winning investment expertise. Partner with us to take your wealth further with advice led personalized wealth management, offering clients and financial planners a full suite of industry leading investment solutions. Visit www.oldmutual.co.za/slash wealth to learn more. Hi there, I'm Arthi Rabikrisson.
• 1:05
  Malika Petersen: Hello, I'm Malika Petersen.
• 1:08
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Welcome to
• 1:09
  Malika Petersen: the Swan Effect Podcast.
• 1:11
  Arthi Rabikrisson: We're your go-to podcast to simplify the complexities of money management, investing, and wealth management,
• 1:19
  Malika Petersen: so that you can gain confidence in your relationship with money and become financially literate, independent, and free.
• 1:27
  Arthi Rabikrisson: That first step towards freedom is knowledge, and you can start with gaining that right now by listening to this upcoming episode. Hello, wonderful listeners, and thanks for joining us again on the Swan Effect Podcast. With this season, Season Five, we are unpacking debt, death, and taxes. It is full-blown winter in South Africa. It's cold, and along with that cold weather comes a topic that is uncomfortable. Everyone today, we're specifically focusing on debt and its impact on our relationships. Hi, Malika.
• 2:07
  Malika Petersen: Hi, Arthi. And welcome, listeners. It is indeed chilly in South Africa, and I think that our episode today may either cause our listeners to warm up a little bit, hopefully, because we've shared some truths that we encourage our listeners to think about when it comes to debt in our relationships and the boundaries around this.
• 2:27
  Malika Petersen: Right, this is where money becomes personal. So, let's dive right in.
• 2:35
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh, absolutely, let's go for it.
• 2:37
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, so everyone, sometimes the scariest debt in a relationship is not actually the amount of the debt, it's the silence, so you know it's about the topics that no one really wants at the dinner table, but somehow it's already sitting there eating dessert with us!
• 2:55
  Malika Petersen: Exactly Arthi, right? I like how you put that literally, it shows up as a credit card, your partner doesn't mention the loan that your sibling expects you to help with, the family WhatsApp message that lands like an invoice or a statement, right?
• 3:12
  Malika Petersen: Or, "this is what you owe me for all I've done for you", right?
• 3:16
  Malika Petersen: Ja, even as I'm saying these things, I see it makes me feel quite triggered,
• 3:25
  Arthi Rabikrisson: You and me both, Malika, and I'm sure our listeners as well. And then suddenly everyone, money is not just about the numbers, it's actually becomes about love, duty, fear, loyalty, resentment, and survival, like all of these things mixed together,
• 3:43
  Malika Petersen: absolutely.
• 3:43
  Malika Petersen: Because I mean, debt is not just a financial product, it's an emotional one too, right? And it becomes relational, it becomes cultural. So, in the South African context, for many people, yes, success is shared because of our legacy, right?
• 4:00
  Malika Petersen: Family support is a real thing.
• 4:03
  Malika Petersen: The sandwich generation for us is absolutely something that we live with every single day, and what people call black tax is often not only financial, it's all the things I just spoke about. So, yeah, you know, it's a case of saying, "How do I say no without sounding cruel or ungrateful", or "how do I even tell my partner that I'm drowning because of certain things"?
• 4:30
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, it's a difficulty that a lot of us experience, and the telling thing, Malika, is it becomes a legacy too, because you know the way we're handling money in relationships, you know, whether it's hiding, avoiding, rescuing, overspending or control, or the way we communicate, you know, these patterns don't stay with us only they get passed on, and if we want a different legacy, everyone, we have to stop treating financial honesty like it's a betrayal. So that's why this season we're really unpacking debt, taxes and legacy, which is what we're calling death as well, because money choices are never just private, they're actually shaping households, future generations, and what they're actually going to inherit emotionally and financially,
• 5:17
  Malika Petersen: and I think in this episode we're getting really honest about those pressure points, right? The hidden debt in partnership.
• 5:23
  Malika Petersen: Financial infidelity is such a big one, guys, supporting parents and siblings or other extended family members, right?
• 5:32
  Malika Petersen: I mean, I'm blessed not to have that situation with my sibling, but there are other extended family members that might be part of that, right? And how to draw boundaries without losing your heart or your humanity.
• 5:47
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And listen, listen, this is not an episode of judgment at all. You know, Malika and I are not here to say you should have known better.
• 5:54
  Arthi Rabikrisson: No, because you know so many people, we're just doing the best that we can with the scripts we've inherited, right.
• 6:01
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So I think the one thing that you can take from this, everybody, is that Malika and I, we're not going to romanticize this financial chaos, okay? For us, compassion and clarity can both sit at the dinner table.
• 6:17
  Malika Petersen: yeah, and hopefully by the end of this episode, right, I mean, we've got to hope that's simple, that you leave with language questions and practical habits that will make the money conversations a lot less explosive and a lot more honest.
• 6:33
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I like that.
• 6:33
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, so Malika, I want to start with perhaps this line that sometimes, as I said earlier, the scariest debt in a relationship is not the amount, it's the silence, because sometimes people think that the betrayal is the debt itself, but often it's far deeper, it's a wound that goes to almost that emotional level, like you said, around, oh, but you didn't tell me, or the thought processes goes to, but you're now letting me build plans with incomplete information, so it goes to that everyone
• 7:05
  Malika Petersen: exactly, okay?
• 7:05
  Malika Petersen: And I think you know it's the credit card balance that only comes to light when the bank calls, right? It's that personal loan that was taken just to get through a rough patch. It's the store account to buy the kids' clothing, right? The buy now pay later balance. It's the overdraft. It is so easy. We live in a society, in a banking society, that makes these things so easy. It's the little family loan that I didn't tell you about, secret payment, you know.
• 7:36
  Malika Petersen: And I think that classic line is always, "I didn't want to worry you".
• 7:40
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I mean, it sounds so loving, right? Because it often lands to somebody else that, oh, you didn't trust me with the truth, you know. So, yeah,
• 7:47
  Malika Petersen: yeah. And I think, I mean, that's the big thing, right? We need to separate secrecy from privacy. I think that's, you know, big, that's important. Yeah, yeah, it's a big mind shift, because yes, people can have financial independence? Absolutely. I mean, the way that you choose to run, you know, your relationship from a financial perspective is absolutely yours. But when those choices start to affect the household, the children, the bond, the rent, the grocery budget, or, you know, your shared future goals, then secrecy becomes pretty dangerous, unfortunately,
• 8:22
  Arthi Rabikrisson: dangerous, and it's making me think of the phrase financial intimacy, Malika, and you know, we talk a lot about emotional intimacy, physical intimacy, trust, even, but you know what, everyone, money honesty is also a part of intimacy,
• 8:37
  Malika Petersen: very much so, right, because I mean, how you behave with money under pressure tells me something about how safe we are together, how strong our trust is.
• 8:47
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Right, yeah, yeah.
• 8:48
  Malika Petersen: For example, when you're afraid, do you hide?
• 8:52
  Malika Petersen: Right? Do you overspend? Do you freeze? Do you feel the need to control everything? Do you rescue everybody else? Do you avoid opening emails,
• 9:01
  Arthi Rabikrisson: or do you suddenly become very busy every time someone says to you, can we look at the budget? You know, the budget becomes the villain.
• 9:07
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, the Excel spreadsheet becomes the third person in the relationship, and no one invited it to date night.
• 9:17
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and I mean, actually, this is why so many couples avoid money conversations, right, because money can feel like a performance review of your adulthood, which is part of your adulthood. It's about, am I responsible enough, am I successful enough? That is such a big one. Am I earning enough?
• 9:36
  Malika Petersen: Am I contributing equally, or less than or more than the next person, right? And if someone already carries shame around debt, then being asked about money can really feel like being exposed. To be honest,
• 9:52
  Arthi Rabikrisson: that is such an important point, Malika. And you know, sometimes debt secrecy is not malicious. Sometimes it is exactly what you're saying, that shame. Or that fear, and somebody potentially thinking, you know, if somebody else has to see a part of me or this part of me, then they're actually going to think less of me.
• 10:09
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, but the problem is that shame grows in silence.
• 10:13
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Ah, interest also grows in silence.
• 10:16
  Malika Petersen: That's one to add our T-shirts!!
• 10:21
  Arthi Rabikrisson: but truly, I mean, I think that's the lesson, right? If you're hiding debt from someone that you're building, you know, a partnership or relationship with, you know, the first step is not necessarily to fix everything overnight. The first step is actually to not carry everything alone, and if you are the person receiving that disclosure about what's going on, then of course your reaction also matters in this
• 10:44
  Malika Petersen: absolutely, and I think we have to focus on this right, because if someone finally says I need to tell you something and your immediate response is judgment, humiliation, sarcasm, punishment, or any kind of character assassination, they may never tell you anything you know again. So, the goal is not to avoid accountability. There must be accountability.
• 11:11
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Ah, absolutely, because you know when people hide it or avoid money talks or make major purchases in secrets, that all damages trust, not because money is the only thing that matters, but because the silence is what creates confusion, and then confusion creates fear, and you know when you ask that question gently, not as an accusation, it actually changes the tone of the conversation, it moves it from why are you like this to something more healthier, which is well, what happens to you under pressure?
• 11:45
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and I mean that's the true heart of financial intimacy, it's truth without the humiliation, and I think, arthi, you know, the one thing that we need to say is that when two people get into a relationship, it's never just about the two people.
• 12:02
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh, yeah, you're so right. I mean, it's the two people, plus two money histories, plus two childhoods, plus two families, two nervous systems, and sometimes even two completely different definitions of security.
• 12:15
  Malika Petersen: Exactly. I mean, one person grew up in a home where you never spoke about money, and the other one grew up in a home where money was shouted about every single month.
• 12:25
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Ja, or one person believes debt is normal, it's manageable, and another believes debt is complete danger.
• 12:33
  Malika Petersen: Absolutely, I mean, one person could be thinking, if I love you, I help you, no matter what, whereas another person thinks, if I love you, I must protect our household and our future first.
• 12:44
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah. And then these two marry each other.
• 12:46
  Malika Petersen: Yes. And wonder why the Woolies till slip causes a three day cold war!
• 12:51
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh not the woolies till slip!
• 12:55
  Malika Petersen: The Woolies till slip has ended many peaceful nights.
• 12:59
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I know you're right. You are right about that, you know, but again, I think the point we're making, listeners, is the fight is often not about the till slip at all. No, it's about what that till slip represents: safety, control, freedom, respect, even recognition of the other person, childhood status, scarcity - it's all these other elements that come in
• 13:21
  Malika Petersen: absolutely, and I mean, I think so. When we say debt in relationships, we must ask, what does debt mean to each individual person, right? For one person in the relationship, debt may mean failure, and for another, it may mean access, right? For someone else, that might mean survival, for another person, it might mean aspiration.
• 13:43
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Absolutely, I mean, I'm just thinking of my own context around it, and you know, in my partnership, in my relationship, we've, you know, initially we were at opposite ends of where debt is, and through discussion, talking, you know, engaging very opinionated and heatedly around certain things, we finally come to a middle ground. So, that's what we're saying, everybody. When you're in that kind of a relationship or partnership, if you're not talking about it and you're sitting on opposite sides, boy, oh boy, it'll totally come to the fore. And you know, the thing is, debt is, as we've spoken about in previous episodes, can be very useful when used wisely. I mean, examples, is you know, debt can pay for somebody's education, it can help somebody start a business, it could even help somebody who's in an unhealthy or an unsafe situation to move out of that as well. So, you know, you can't treat all debt as morally bad, but we do need to understand everyone, whether debt is building something or is it quietly burying us.
• 14:47
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and to know and understand whether both people know the truth about it, right?
• 14:51
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Exactly. I mean, so here's a very practical conversation starter, I think, Malika, for couples and partners. Okay, so instead. Of going in and asking how much debt do you have as the first question. Okay, try instead asking what did you learn about money growing up?
• 15:10
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and I mean that question softens the room, right? Because it moves us from an interrogation style of questioning to an understanding style of questioning, right?
• 15:20
  Malika Petersen: Then you can ask, when money gets tight, what do you usually do
• 15:25
  Arthi Rabikrisson: exactly? I love that. I love that, and then progress from there to something like what kind of financial behavior makes you feel unsafe in a relationship?
• 15:34
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, I think that's a very powerful one, right, because sometimes people don't know the boundary until it's been crossed
• 15:42
  Arthi Rabikrisson: exactly, and by then we're already quite heated, quite emotional things could spiral. Yeah, yeah. Okay, Malika, so let's go to one of the biggest relationship questions. When does your debt become our debt?
• 15:58
  Malika Petersen: It's a rough one, I think you know emotionally couples answer that quite differently, right. So some people would say if we're together we faced everything together, right. Others would say I did not create that debt, so I should not have to carry it, right. And both of those responses have truth in them, right, which is, I think, why the questions that Arthi and I have been doing over the last couple of minutes is so important to have that conversation before you go into a serious commitment, right.
• 16:36
  Malika Petersen: Let's talk about legally in South Africa, it can depend on your marriage regime. If you married in community of property, the joint estate generally means that death can affect both partners. If you married out of community of property, the situation is often more separate, right? Unless there are joint deaths that are cosigned and sure it is involved as well,
• 17:02
  Arthi Rabikrisson: and everyone, if you're not sure, if you're not clear, please do go and speak to a qualified legal or financial professional who can help you unpack your specific situation,
• 17:13
  Malika Petersen: exactly, because if you're building a life together, whether you decide to get married or not, there are implications on both sides, and you need to know what those are, right? Which accounts are going to be joined, who signs for what, who is surety for what, and what happens if one person loses their income.
• 17:34
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, let's just say it clearly, Malika, okay, a shared life does not automatically mean that vague money arrangements are healthy.
• 17:45
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, so like all of these questions that we're posing to you, if you actually don't have answers as we're asking them, that means, yeah, okay, may or may not be healthy. So everyone, unfortunately, love is not a legal strategy. Okay, romance is not paperwork, and good vibes are not a debt management plan.
• 18:05
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, if anything, you're going to be heading for admin with consequences and not the good kind.
• 18:11
  Malika Petersen: You're killing the romance for the listeners today with your straight talk.
• 18:14
  Malika Petersen: It's making me laugh, but I mean, you can imagine being in court saying You Honour, but we were getting along so well, we had good vibes.
• 18:30
  Arthi Rabikrisson: The court will not accept vibes as supporting evidence!
• 18:35
  Malika Petersen: exactly right.
• 18:35
  Malika Petersen: So, again, I'm going to say to our listeners, you know, before you merge your lives, you really need to understand, you know what exactly you are merging.
• 18:45
  Malika Petersen: Some couples do very well with fully merged finances, joint bonds, joint accounts. Yeah, others do better with a hybrid setup, right? Separate personal bank accounts, plus joint bonds, for example, or a joint account for shared costs. Thepoint is that there isn't one perfect model. What you need is clarity, consent, and regular review.
• 19:11
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yes, I mean, I can't underscore this enough.
• 19:14
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Debt thrives in vagueness as well. You know, I thought you paid for it. I assumed we were covered. I didn't know that the account was in your ears. I mean, no, we can't feign ignorance around these things, right? When there's..when there's now all of these creditors coming to us needing things,
• 19:31
  Malika Petersen: yeah. So, I think there's a practical framework for couples, right?
• 19:33
  Malika Petersen: You need to have four conversations. Number one is the disclosure conversation that comes right up front. What are the debt? What are some of the obligations? There might be family obligations, there might be any kinds of obligations.
• 19:46
  Malika Petersen: What are the obligations, right?
• 19:49
  Malika Petersen: What credit commitments do I have that exist right now, not the edited version, but the real raw version. Guys, the disclosure part is so important, it'll even. Help you as an individual. I mean, we've spoken about this in previous episodes.
• 20:03
  Malika Petersen: Name it right, that's the big one. The second big conversation is a decision-making conversation. What amount can each person spend, borrow, lend without discussing it, without needing to consult the person, because the reality is that one person may think 500 rand is small, and another one thinks that 500 rand is the petrol and bread for this week, right.
• 20:28
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Absolutely, the third conversation everyone is going to be around safety.
• 20:31
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So, what is the plan if income drops or suddenly interest rates are rising, which we've experienced in South Africa, and many other places in the world, or an emergency hits us, how are we going to sort this out?
• 20:46
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Right, the fourth conversation is going to be about values, and that is talking about what matters more right now. Are we prioritizing debt payoff, or is there a bigger lifestyle element? Is there maybe family support that's needed? Are we just putting things towards savings and stability? You know, the values conversation is actually where I find many couples to fight. It's not over the actual number everywhere, it's about the meaning behind it. So, one person will hear, okay, let's cut back right as discipline, but another one is going to think of it. Oh no, you're depriving me. You know, there's some loss of dignity, maybe there's even punishment around that.
• 21:28
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, exactly.
• 21:28
  Malika Petersen: And I mean, you need to make sure that you use gentle language that keeps both people on the same side, instead of you spend too much. Try, how do we want our money to serve us this even instead of your family members are draining us. Try, you know what support is sustainable without putting too much pressure on our household or putting our household at risk.
• 21:53
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh, yeah, I mean, we have so many examples of this, right? Another one could be you never tell me anything, you know, can you notice everyone, how it's all about as soon as you put in starting off with you or your, it starts to become very accusation focused, right? So, something like what I said, if you never tell me anything is what you normally used to kind of saying, try instead, can we agree that we share money problems earlier or before they become emergencies, so just shifting that language matters so much, because the goal is not to win the argument, the goal is to protect the relationship for the future.
• 22:32
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and I think if debt is already heavy, think earlier help matters, right? In South Africa, debt review can be a legitimate tool for over indebted consumers, but couples also need to understand how that interacts with their legal setup and their credit obligations before they panic or ignore the problem.
• 22:55
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I love that.
• 22:55
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So, dive in, everybody, and get stuck in with these pieces.
• 22:58
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Right, we don't want there to be a bigger problem down the line that could have been sorted out earlier. Yeah, okay. So, Malika, now let's move the talk to the family side, okay? Because for many listeners, the real pressure is not just sitting with a partner, potentially it's actually just being held to a standard where you're seen as the reliable one in the family,
• 23:21
  Malika Petersen: that family WhatsApp group,
• 23:25
  Arthi Rabikrisson: probably the most powerful financial institution in South Africa.
• 23:28
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Honestly,
• 23:31
  Malika Petersen: for real, no formal application process, but beware, the emotional interest is extremely high, right? The repayment terms are unclear. The guilt is compounded monthly and across generations. Right. Oh yeah, because you're the one with the salary, right, the one who has access, the one who can make a plan. Those words in South Africa, right? And I mean, in South Africa, that pressure is deeply, deeply tied to history, inequality, and the expectations that just comes, you know, that comes with being the one that has income that needs to support multiple generations,
• 24:13
  Arthi Rabikrisson: and this is where people talk about black tax, the reality where your progress is not just experienced by you as an individual, it belongs to the family system, as well as we said earlier. For many South African success is shared when one person makes it, the family does not always experience that as that person's progress. It's the collective hope, Malika. And you know that's not wrong. Okay, let's be clear. It can be such a beautiful thing. It's deeply meaningful because you're in a position to now support your parents and siblings and even wider family, nieces, nephews, grandparents, aunts, etc.
• 24:51
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, family support is not the enemy. I think we want to make that very clear, yeah, to our listeners, right? But unsustainable support can be very dangerous, and we want to handle this carefully.
• 25:04
  Malika Petersen: When people talk about black tax, it's not just a complaint about helping families, like we said, it's rooted in history. We understand that the inequality, you know, just disrupted wealth accumulation, and the fact that so many families are still trying to recover from those horrible, horrible years of limited access. Right, so yeah, as you said, Arthi, family support can be loving and meaningful, but it can also push people into debt, burnout, some missed payments, delayed savings, and your resentment that they feel quite ashamed about.
• 25:41
  Arthi Rabikrisson: It's very much, especially for the sandwich generation, Malika, so that being those that are supporting children below you, parents above you, and sometimes even your siblings and extended family alongside that. So, you know, I guess what we're saying to everyone, support can be love, it can also be pressure, and sometimes, you know, just being the reliable one could also mean that you're the exhausted one too.
• 26:05
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and I mean that leads to our point, you know, for being in the support is not the same as self-erasure right? If helping family means you constantly missing on your own bond, your own rent, your kids' school fees, transport, you know, debt repayments, then supporting your family in that way makes it just financially unsustainable. That is what it is.
• 26:28
  Arthi Rabikrisson: it is an unsustainable generosity can often turn into secret borrowing, because you know that person was helping you, maybe using credit, actually, you know, so they're taking personal loans to cover family expectations. They're using credit cards for those school needs you mentioned, Malika, or they're even keeping stock counts alive just so that they can maintain dignity at home.
• 26:53
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, which is why boundaries are not selfish, right? They are a strategy for staying helpful over time, one practical approach is to define a fixed support amount of category before the requests even come in. You know, not I'll see how I feel or see what I can manage, but this is what I can contribute each month without destabilizing my own life.
• 27:18
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I like that.
• 27:18
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I really do. Another option, everyone, where possible, is to just try and shift from being very vague on cash support to those specific contributions.
• 27:28
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So, for example, you know, maybe one sibling is paying the electricity directly, or and another is then sharing to handle the groceries, maybe somebody else is contributing to transport, so you know, breaking it down that way makes it very specific, and then that also reduces confusion and guilt.
• 27:47
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and I mean, I think if you are the family provider, you have to have the courage to communicate early. Don't wait until you're drowning to say things have changed, you know. I need to rethink how we, we share them.
• 27:59
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, the earlier you can discuss and communicate this the better.
• 28:01
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Can't stress that enough. Okay, another tool I want to put forward to our listeners, Malika, is what I'm calling the yes no, not the sway boundary.
• 28:14
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, so instead of just thinking about some of these financial considerations in a yes or no fashion, give yourself three options. Everyone, the yes option means I can help with this. Okay, the no option means I cannot help with this, and the not this way option is, for example, saying I can't send cash, but I can help you look for alternatives, for example, maybe calling the school, or comparing options, or perhaps contributing a smaller amount.
• 28:46
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So, this final option is sort of saying I can maybe empower you to think of other ways, because I'm not in a position to help you just this moment. Yeah,
• 28:57
  Malika Petersen: yeah, I really like this arthi. I mean, it helps because sometimes people avoid boundaries because they think the only options are rescue or
• 29:05
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Exacty, and there is always a middle space.
• 29:09
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and I think I mean another phrase listeners can use is "I want to help you in a way that does not put both of us in trouble", right? And let's say this with compassion, if supporting everyone means you cannot build emergency savings, for example, you can't pay your own debt, for example, you can't pay for your own retirement, right? You're not only sacrificing your comfort in the moment, you're actually stealing from your future self, and what does that mean? It means that you are recreating the same fragility for the next generation, your legacy, in other words.
• 29:44
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh, definitely, that is the legacy piece. You know, everyone sometimes saying I can't do it all is actually how you interrupt the cycle. So, you know, Malika, we actually asked for anonymous stories from listeners of the situations that they're dealing with and. And the themes that we got back was so powerful, so here's one example, right? Somebody shared that they found out that after the wedding that her husband had debt he had never disclosed, and she shared that she was not only angry about the amount but actually she was worried... that she was experiencing humiliation, because she thought everyone around her knew about it, so therefore they were judging her about it. She basically wasn't in the know, and that was what was causing so much of anxiety.
• 30:35
  Malika Petersen: That story says so much, right? The betrayal is less about the number and more about the exclusion, you know, you're joining in a lifelong partnership with this person,
• 30:47
  Arthi Rabikrisson: right?
• 30:47
  Malika Petersen: It's rough,
• 30:49
  Arthi Rabikrisson: it's rough, and they're not sharing that information. Okay, another story that was shared was somebody saying to me, okay, every month I help at home, I'm using credit to do that, the family thinks this person is coping because this person never says no, and as a result they're feeling so tired and so ashamed.
• 31:07
  Malika Petersen: No, and I mean that is such a painful but common pattern, right? People confuse being needed with being financially stable, and you can be dependable and you can still be drowning. Let's be real.
• 31:21
  Arthi Rabikrisson: absolutely okay. Here's one final one. All right, one of our listeners shared that their partner didn't want to stress them out, and as a result, there's a consistent pattern of finding out about money problems late, meaning the crisis is already hitting them, and then they're made aware of it.
• 31:39
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and this is, you know, this example is the key reason that we actually need to redefine protection.
• 31:46
  Malika Petersen: Real proper protection is not hiding the truth until the house is on fire. Real proper protection is saying we need to look at this together while we still have choices and opportunities to do things.
• 31:58
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, my reflection around this, you know, on all of these stories is that money silence can feel polite, perhaps, but actually it's far more expensive in the medium to long run.
• 32:10
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think if you want peace in relationships, don't wait for the perfect numbers before you start telling the truth. Clarity often comes before comfort, not after, and I mean, now's the time for ask, respond, right? Questions for journaling conversations, or your next household money day.
• 32:31
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, lovely, lovely. Question one, everyone,"what am I avoiding telling people that I share money with?"
• 32:39
  Malika Petersen: Question two,"when I support family, is it from surplus, sacrifice, or debt?"
• 32:47
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Question three, "do the people in my household know the real picture, or only the edited version?"
• 32:55
  Malika Petersen: Question four,"what boundary would protect my peace and still honor my values?"
• 33:02
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I love all these questions, Malika. You and I, we use these questions ourselves, right?
• 33:07
  Malika Petersen: All the time.
• 33:07
  Malika Petersen: Yes,
• 33:08
  Arthi Rabikrisson: they're very useful listeners. Okay. And here's another thing I want to offer our listeners. It's what we're calling our Family Money Reset Checklist, bit of a mouthful. But basically, what are some of the things over the next seven days, that you could think about doing. Okay, so
• 33:23
  first one is: set one money date with your partner or the household or the family, something that you can say, okay, cool, this is where we're going to be talking about our money, or just looking at different things, or we're going
• 33:35
  to have a conversation. Two: list all your current debts, repayments, and all family support commitments in one place, that could be in a notebook, Excel spreadsheet, PowerPoint, whatever you're comfortable with. Third one: decide what requires discussion before money leaves the household. Okay, and sometimes it could be for the bigger things, it could be for the even the little ones as well. It depends on what it is your need is around money at that point in
• 34:03
  time. Fourth one: set a realistic money support boundary for extended family, if possible, and if applicable.
• 34:11
  time. Fourth one: Okay, let me not say if possible. Actually, you should be doing this, so it depends on who, and you need to apply it.
• 34:18
  time. Fourth one: All right. And then the fifth one is" build or restart one buffer, even if it's a small emergency fund. Everyone, I mean, that literally changes the tone of every money conversation.
• 34:31
  Malika Petersen: yeah. And if you do those five things, you're already shifting from reaction to intention, which is so important,
• 34:38
  Arthi Rabikrisson: and that's what we're all about, right?
• 34:40
  Arthi Rabikrisson: These are practical evidence-based tips. It all starts with some reflection and some conversations thereafter to get clarity, and thereafter moving into action. That's what we want for you listeners. Boom! We've covered a lot, Malika. Oh my god, we are at parting shots now. Alright, let me share mine, and mine is actually connected to what we said a little earlier, which was legacy. Okay, now legacy is not only what's in the will that somebody's going to find out about it at some point in the future. No, legacy is also the money behavior people are witnessing while we're alive, and who's coming to mind here? It's our children.
• 35:19
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Children notice, they're noticing who panics, who hides, who's rescuing everyone, who's not resting at any time. I mean, they're also noticing when somebody says, 'Let's be honest, let's make a plan, let's ask for help, let's do it differently." Now, isn't that a great inheritance to leave our children those last four that I just mentioned, yeah? Just one uncomfortable or direct conversation can actually create healthier habits for the next generation that's going to accumulate your financial and your emotional assets.
• 35:56
  Malika Petersen: Wow, I love how you connected that to legacy out there, and, and the inheritance piece as well, right.
• 36:02
  Arthi Rabikrisson: It's an important one to actually connect. Malika, what would your parting shot be?
• 36:06
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, I think I mean, for me, legacy is not only the money that you leave behind, right, it's the honesty, the boundaries, the stability that you practice while you are building. If your children or younger family members are watching you panic, hide, rescue, or silently carry everything. They'll inherit that script too.
• 36:27
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, you know, listeners, if this episode has given you language for a conversation that you have been avoiding, you know, please also pass it on. Right, if you're feeling there's such value, pass it on to somebody who you know may actually need it,
• 36:44
  Malika Petersen: and remember, keep choosing awareness, courage, and intention. Ciao for now.
• 36:51
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Ciao for now, everyone.
• 36:55
  Malika Petersen: Thanks for joining us. We hope you found these ideas and guidance useful.
• 37:00
  Arthi Rabikrisson: We're both seasoned in the investments industry. Malika is at the coal face of how, where, and why people invest the way they do.
• 37:10
  Malika Petersen: I certainly am, and you, Arthi, you've witnessed different types of investor behaviors around money too, and now work as a global award-winning coach to free us from the mindsets that stop us from becoming financially free.
• 37:27
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Do subscribe, share, and write a review, or send us comments. We would love to hear from you. Catch you on the next episode of The Swan Effect Podcast. Bye for now.
• 37:38
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Ciao.