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Lead Like You Mean It: Unveiling the Essence of True Leadership with Leadership Coach, Jen Smollett · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Job Board and Community.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: In this show, I'm honored to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, their boundaries and balance, the challenges they've faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success.
• 0:43
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• 0:44
  Speaker 1: No way.
• 0:45
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• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Think of this as coffee with your mates, the mixed with an inspiring TED talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine and make sure you cozy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: This is the Work it Like a Mum podcast.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:17
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• 1:29
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• 1:34
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• 1:43
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• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Now back to the show.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Welcome to this week's episode of the Work it Like a Mum podcast.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: I'm delighted because I'm going to be chatting with Jen Smollett today, who is one of my favourite people.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be talking all about authenticity and leadership in the workplace, which I know Jen is hugely passionate about.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, jen, for joining us today.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: It's such a pleasure to chat with you.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: We had a bit of a nap.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: I haven't went before with press record, so we're going to have a really meaty episode for you Before we hit record.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: I know that, jen, you've just been in a play recently.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: You enjoyed doing it in your free time and you mentioned was it the director?
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: That was a really good leader.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Do you want to talk about it From somebody that's being led?
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: What attributes do you think made her a good?
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: leader Amazing, thank you, she's been amazing.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: I've been in this musical and we've been rehearsing since March this year and we've rehearsed every single Sunday.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: It's a huge commitment and everybody's doing it.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: It's amateur dramatics.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: We're all doing it in our own time.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: There's been a lot to learn.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: It's singing, it's harmonies, it's dancing as well as obviously, there's acting in it as well.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: This director has just been phenomenal.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: She has, I think, the key word, the two key words that I've found that I've seen in her has been consistency and respect those two things, I think and compassion.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Actually, I think she's shown a lot of compassion, just naturally.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Her kind of empathy and compassion towards people as human beings has shone through the level of respect that she has managed to portray in every single interaction that I've seen her have with all of us.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: There's some things I think in workplaces, in the NHS it's been the same, but there's a hierarchy.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: You have the director, or the leader, or the consultants or whoever, at the top and then it goes down and you've got your main characters, or you've got the doctors, and then below that you've got the supporting characters and that's your nurses, and then you've got then the full, the ensemble, so people that don't have an actual role, but they're supporting the show, and you might liken that to healthcare assistants in the NHS, for example.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: It's this hierarchy of who's at the top and then it goes all the way down to the bottom, and I personally hate that feeling.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: When I was a nurse, I didn't ever see myself as more important than a HTA and I didn't see myself less important than a doctor.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: We're all doing our own really important roles that allow the care that we give to be the best that it is.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Or on stage You've got the main characters that are portraying their character, but you've also got the supporting cast and even the people backstage as well, that are all integral to the success of the show, and she, for me, has managed to show that level of respect to every single person, and that, I think, really matters, because everybody's integral, just in the NHS and just in all workplaces as well.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Everybody is integral to the smooth running of whatever is happening, and with her ability to show each of us respect, I think this is another thing in leadership.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: There's a role modelling element there too, because then if they're able to role model that respect for each and every person, then it's easier for everyone else within the team to also have that respect, and maybe I'm not suggesting that she's the only reason that everyone was respectful.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: This company have been working together for a long time.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: I've only just recently joined, but I know that there has been a culture before of it's a one big, happy family and everybody kind of supports each other.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: So I'm not suggesting that it's come from her, but I think had she have been different, it could have also been different.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: The leader sets the tone, don't they?
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: And they set the tone of how it is, and that's what she's done with her respect, I think, and I think that is what brings out the best in people.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: I think when a leader respects each and every person in their team or in their workplace, then that allows those people to feel respected and then to feel like they have an important role to play within the organisation and then they can do their best work.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: So that's one of the things that I think she's absolutely done with her respect.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: And then the second thing is her consistency.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: She has consistently given the same message.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Now, I don't mean that she's given the same message every time in terms of repeating herself, but she's just been consistent in the way that she's approached everything.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: She's been consistent in her approach to us.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: She's been consistent in the, the feedback that she's giving to everybody.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: She's been consistent in her vision and that's a funny thing to say, because I think you know when you're directing a musical or a play, actually the vision will change and that's you know.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: It will be fluid and it will change as it goes along.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: And when I say consistency, I don't necessarily mean consistency in her vision being exactly the same as it was at the beginning, so what it was at the end, but her consistency and when her vision maybe has changed slightly.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: We almost weren't aware of it, which I think is what makes me see how consistent it was, because we've just been able to just follow her throughout the whole process.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: You know, we've felt like she's just been on it, she's known exactly where she's going and even if that's changed, she's given us belief and the trust in her that she has the vision.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: I think that's so vital to leadership as well in organizations, because if you are going to follow a leader, you've got to feel like they know what they're doing.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: You've got to feel like they can see the bigger picture.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: You've got to feel like what you're doing is still going to be part of it going forward.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: You know further down the line as well.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: So they're the key things that I think she's done have meant that she's been just an amazing leader throughout.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: So you sort of mentioned, respect and consistency, and I mean able to, I guess, communicate a vision and bring you in, I guess, in practical terms, how do you do that?
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: So I'm thinking, you know, if you're in a smaller organization where everyone knows everybody, it's quite easy.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: I feel bad saying it's quite easy to see people as people, isn't it?
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: If you're in a small organization, there's going to be 20 of you, 30 of you, maybe you know up to 100 of you.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: Everyone just pretty much will know everybody and it's really easy to start developing those relationships.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: But when you're getting to organizations the size of like Amazon, big retailers, big four, and you're potentially in a head office role and you're just seeing the numbers, you're not actually seeing people and people's names, you're just.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: You know, if you're working head office for example, alde, I don't know you've got thousands and thousands of employees that you are responsible for in some shape or form.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: How do you show respect to those people that you have never?
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: met.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: You know, I think it's again, it's part of that consistency.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: I think it comes from within and it comes in the way you talk.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: You know it isn't necessarily about knowing everybody's name, because of course with those numbers you can't know everybody's name.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: But if I liken it to the NHS, for example, you know, as a nurse, if I was talking about how amazing nurses are and they're supported by HTAs, or you know the HTAs are doing the work I don't want to do, or some, you know, in that kind of language, if I'm talking like that, you're going to pick up that I don't have that much respect for them, whereas when you hear me talk about my workplace and where I've worked and actually how are all, you know everyone plays such a key role and such an integral role to what we're doing then you can hear through that language that I do have respect.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: And so I think for me it isn't necessarily about picking single people out or single roles out, but it's about an overall approach and an overall respect for the roles that you know that people play, because of course you can have a thousand people, but they're not doing a thousand very different roles, are they Within that thousand?
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: There will be, of course, lots of different roles, but all of those roles.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: If you're in leadership, you know what all of those different roles are and I think remembering and you holding onto the importance of each of those different roles, that's what's going to allow it to come across.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: In any communication you have, any email that you send, any conversation that you have, whether it's a board meeting or whether it's addressing everybody, if your language is consistent, because actually, within your heart, you are respectful of all of those different roles, then I think that it will come across.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: And it has to come across, doesn't it?
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: Because people need to feel valued.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: This is obviously something about oh, we're all a family, or you know that sort of language.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: What do you think about that language referring to an organisation?
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: We're all a family, we're like a family, does that?
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: vote you?
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: That's an interesting question and I don't know honestly.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: I think there are different elements to it.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: There's one element, I think when it's a smaller team and truly everybody does feel like they're part of a family.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: I think that's beautiful and I think it's a nice experience for everybody.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: And you know, within this drama group you know they talk about it being a family and actually it does very much feel like that.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: You know you do feel like you've got each other's backs and I think there's something very not naive, but there's something with I think it comes from a good intention place.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: When larger organisations just talk about being part of a family and we're all part of the same family, I think it comes from a good place and I think the intention is for everybody to feel like they belong and I think that belonging at work is absolutely vital to the culture of an organisation.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: So there are many principles of a family that I think should be brought into an organisation, but at the same time, I think it's really careful.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: It's really important to recognise the people that don't feel like they're part of that family, because within a larger organisation there will be people that don't necessarily feel like they're part of the family.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: So I think the language is interesting, I think I can see that the intention, I think, is a good one, and I think belonging is really important.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: But I think there are perhaps better ways to work on making sure that you have an inclusive culture that values belonging, that supports each and every single person in your organisation, and sometimes calling that a family is not necessarily the right way to do that, I think.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: What do you think?
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: You put me on the spot with that question.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: What do you think?
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: I think you're going to have a lot of different questions.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: You probably know Amy Portfield.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: People are listening, probably don't know her.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: She's like an online business guru.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: So if anyone's got wants to start a business, listen to Amy Portfield's podcast.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: And she was talking about leading last week and said about family and how she doesn't call her team a family and there's only 20 of them because she thinks anyway she's actually, I think, has another episode where she talks about the reasons why I've yet to listen to.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: Obviously it's an interesting one, isn't it?
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: Some organizations do embrace that and there's sometimes.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why I asked you.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Sorry, I put you on the spot, but I think I think you're right.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: I think the people say the intention is there.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: The good intention is that they're not saying it, we mean.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: The next thing you mentioned is about being consistent and bringing people on with a vision, and I guess you know you don't need to be the CEO, I guess, to have the vision.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: You might be, you know, a new head of marketing and you head of finance and you've been tasked now with a vision to transform your department.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: What are the best ways for you to communicate that vision with your team really and bring people along with that?
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: I think that the key thing to that, or the first step, is getting really clear on it yourself.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: I think trying to communicate a vision that has been given to you without putting your own stamp on it first of all is a really difficult thing to do, because actually, if you're thinking about you wanting to inspire people, then actually you need to be authentic and genuine in your communication for people to even believe what you're saying and to trust in you and to feel inspired by you.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: And so I think one of the key things is to unnecessarily internalize the vision, but for you to know what the vision means to you and what you see.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: That vision.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: I think you know it can be someone else's vision that's been given to you, but I think you can put your own stamp on it, or you can put your own importance on it or your own purpose onto it or your own passion onto it.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: You know there are things within you and the role that you're doing that will add to that vision, and I think it's really important, first of all, to get clear on that and then, secondly, I think it's about always guiding people when you're kind of allocating roles or you're allocating different elements of that bigger vision is making sure that they see how that fits into the bigger vision.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: So each time you communicate or ask somebody to do something, obviously I mean I say each time, I don't mean absolutely everything that's going to be tiring above anything else, I'm perhaps a little bit too much, yeah, but actually allowing people the opportunity to see where their role fits within the vision so that they can feel like they're part of that journey, rather than feeling like they're doing tasks that aren't attached to the bigger vision.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, Definitely makes good advice.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: So we were talking, weren't we, about the types of people are often promoted to leadership roles and how there can be a bit of a mismatch between people are maybe really good at doing a position.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: So I'm thinking, like you know, I was in recruitment, it's Richard Sayles and they end up promoting the best salespeople, who aren't always necessarily the best managers.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: They're not very good at communicating that vision, that training of the people, developing of the people.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: So I mean, how do you know, especially if you're a senior leader, how do you go about it Says, who do you think are the best people to be promoted?
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Does it need to be somebody with that lived experience of doing the role, or should we be celebrating and looking at other attributes?
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: I think that's a really interesting question and I think, like we were saying before, you can find that someone can be really good at a job and really good at the doing and really not good at managing or leading In the same breath.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: You can have someone that might not be very good at the nitty gritty of the doing, but they're actually amazing as leaders and I think that's a really tough task for senior leaders to be able to identify who to move up.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: And I think, again, you know my own experience at the NHS.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: Nhs is the same you know nurses are.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: You know, clinically they can be amazing and then they step into a managerial role and actually may or may not necessarily have the skills to be a good manager.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: I think you've asked me this question before, actually, whether or not you, and that was the only question, you know, are we born?
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: Is some people like born?
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: You know three-in-five-year-old babies.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: They got marked in them that they're going to be a really good manager.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: And then, or can we learn?
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think from my own experience of working in the NHS when I went into my first leadership role.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Now, when I look back, I think, wow, I was not a good leader, you know, I didn't really know how to do it.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: I would say that I'm the kind of person that has always wanted to lead and I've always been.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: You know, I've always led things.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: In a situation that I've been in, I've always been able to take the leader, wanted to take the lead, chosen to take the lead and to guide and support other people.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: And so there was a lot of that within me that I had to be a good leader.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: But I don't know that I Well.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: No, I do know I wasn't a great leader when I first did my leadership role and I think it's interesting because I think that I needed support to be able to grow and develop as a leader and I think actually the majority of people also need that same because if you think about, when you step into a leadership role, what is expected of you, what you expect of you, and then the reality of actually being in that role, there's often quite a mismatch between quite a few of those different elements, and so you've got a period of time where you really need to figure out who you are as a leader, and so I think it's a really difficult one, because actually, if that person emerges and grows and develops in that leadership role, it may be hard to see which people are going to develop and learn and grow into the best leaders.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: But then I think there are qualities that you can see in a person that would say that they would be a good leader, for example, somebody probably that does take the lead often.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: But I think there's other elements that you can see and think of as well, and actually this is something I've had with a coaching client recently who said to me they don't see themselves as a leader and they don't have a leadership role in air quotes and they don't see how they're going to move into a leadership role because they're not a leader.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: And I think in conversation with that person we identify that their version of what a leader is is very much the kind of stereotypical view of a leader who is strong, assertive, gets stuff done, tells you what to do, etc.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: And actually when I was talking to this person and we were exploring what she does in her role Already is the person that everyone goes to, not necessarily for advice Because she doesn't know how to do everything, but she's the person that people go to to talk through how they're going to do things.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: So people that come up with a problem and they don't really know how to solve it, they go to her not for her to solve it but for her to help them to solve it.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: So she's kind of this like go to person for a lot of people in her team and she's very supportive as well.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: She's quite a cheerleader for other people in the team, which is also why she thought she wouldn't be good as a leader, because she's like other people.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: You know she's good at building other people up and for me they're really important qualities in a leader, because if she can already be that person that people go to to figure something out, you know, actually a leader is not supposed to, in my opinion.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: They're not supposed to have all of the answers.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: They are supposed to know how to get the best out of their team and they're supposed to know where to go to get the answers, but they're not supposed to have all of the answers.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: And so, for me, I think there are leadership qualities like that that can be shown in any role.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: That doesn't necessarily need to be in a leadership role to be able to show those qualities.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: That's not to say they will always be the best leaders, but I think that's a key.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like it.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Do you think people should have training, though?
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Do you think organisations should offer management training?
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, because there's just so many things that if you don't know, you don't know.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: I think you can have things within you, as who you are, that make you a good leader.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: You know the compassion, the consistency, the resilience, authenticity.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: You know there's loads.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Of course there are, but you've got to hone it.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: You know you've got to find some way of honing all of those elements of who you are and be able to identify your own way of leading and actually you don't necessarily always know which parts of that you can bring into your leadership.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: For a start and I think that's where because I do leadership training with women in particular and one of the key things that we look at is what leader is supposed to look like, and then almost giving yourself permission to lead in the way that you want to lead as well.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: So I think there's a real element of being able to be given permission, and that sounds a funny thing actually, because training is not going to give you permission, but I think training gives you a context to be able to identify how you could be a leader, and I think it also training is important when you think about the different elements that are really important in terms of people.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: You know thinking about how to get the best out of people.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: Sure, your personality might lend itself to that, but it's also there are also other elements that are important to remember.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: You know, if we think about the importance of people feeling like they belong and the importance of people feeling like they have autonomy in their work, you know that's grounded in research.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: You know self determination theory.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: There is a lot of those kind of elements that do come into who people are and how people work, and if you can be armed with that information, then I think you can become the best leader, that you can be quicker, because you know you can learn things on the job, but it will take much longer, whereas if you can be given that support through training and coaching, to be able to explore who you are as a leader and what you can bring, and then what is important for leaders to do, I think that will speed up the process.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I do think that.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: I like?
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's often quite a conflict, isn't it?
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: When you become a leader, because you're now no longer part of the team, in that you know maybe you're missing out on some of that gossip.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Is that there is that sort of you're slightly removed mentally from your team and you know they might go quiet when you come back to the desk or whatever.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: So that's stupid.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, what would you say to somebody that's been part of the team and is now sort of now in that manager role and you know having to maintain some sort of authority, I guess, and get targets met, etc.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: And is that?
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that is a really really hard thing to do.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: I remember in an interview when I was getting stepping up and I remember them asking me how I was going to manage my friendships, you know, within the team.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: I remember the interview question.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: I was just like, obviously I'll just manage it, it will just be fine.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: You know, I kind of I just hadn't given it any thought, I didn't realize that that would be a thing.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: And then, yeah, exactly like you say, you all of a sudden don't necessarily know all of the gossip and you have to like, we don't like.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: so you have to boss your phones about and I don't know.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: I'm like.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: You have to say you need to do this, you need to do that, and if they're not performing, you have to tell them.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to have those hard conversations, potentially, and you have to make decisions that people may or may not like.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: And also, yeah, you're not in that gossip anymore.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: And I think in fact it's interesting because one of my friends has been talking to me recently about their manager who often comes onto a team meeting and has a little gossip.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: And for me that's just a massive red flag because if the leader is coming in and having a gossip, how do you know you can trust that person?
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, brené Brown always says this.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: Actually she talks about the elements of trust.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: If somebody tells you somebody else's secrets, then actually you can feel quite bonded in that first moment.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: You know they're telling you this, this information, but really if you were to stop and think about it, then you also know that that person is likely to be telling other people your secrets to.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: And I think it's the same principle in leaders.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: You know, actually, if leaders are joining in on the gossip, then you don't know what they're also saying when they're not with you.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: And so there's that level of trust that as a leader you can't be involved in the gossip anymore.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: It's just you have to take that next professional step of not engaging in that gossip in the same way, and I think because you want people to trust you, because people need to see that you are consistently not engaged in the gossip and that actually you have that professional leader element- it's just about like that.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: I think you sort of might you do lose I want to say lose friendships, but the friendships shift and perhaps can become a little bit more distant because people are aware that you are the manager and less likely to you know like, say, you know, give you the gossip, maybe give you the full lowdown of how they're actually feeling about things that are implemented.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, what would you advise to somebody that is, and that is a big transition and it's a big change, and if you've been working in the team for a couple of years and now you're suddenly managing that team, it can be quite difficult.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: What would be your advice?
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: to somebody.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the best piece of well is two piece of advice.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: I think one is our work colleagues and friends at work are work colleagues or work friends, aren't they?
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: Of course, some of them we do take to be in friendships outside, but actually they are different.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: And I think, first and foremost, it is kind of identifying that bit within yourself as well and recognizing that the fact that there is a different role there brings another dynamic to that relationship, which is what makes it so different.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: And so I guess, first of all, giving yourself permission to feel that that's different, because it is, and then, secondly, I think it's having open communication.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: I think you know it can be really easy to feel like you need to switch.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: So you know I don't know people start to tell you what they truly believe about leadership, or you know what else is happening in the organization, and it could feel really easy for you to be like no, not talking about that, moving on, because you're not supposed to talk about it.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: And I think really there's a fluid transitional ground within the middle where actually you can listen to them and you can allow them to share what they want to share and then, without shutting them down.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: You can, I believe, with compassion and respect, say to them you know, but this is the kind of conversation that I can't really have anymore.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: You know, I have to be careful.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Now, in the position that I am, I'm happy for you to share with me, but I'm not going to be able to have the conversations in the same way that I used to, and I'm sorry about that, you know.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: I genuinely, I feel genuinely sorry about that, but this is something that I know that I need to do.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: So I think you can do it with respect and compassion and genuineness and maintain that connection with those people, and I think you'll be able to gauge a level where actually, sometimes people need to be heard and it's probably better that they say it to you than someone else actually.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: And maybe sometimes there will be a level where you need to say to somebody look, I'm really sorry, but this is not a helpful conversation to have.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: You know, the person that might maybe wants to keep moaning or wants to keep gossiping or wants to do those things where you just might have to say to them you know, I'm really sorry, but this is not bringing out an action.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: You know, there's not something that we can do with this information and actually then gently end in that conversation as well.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: But finding ways to do that whilst maintaining your connection, it's not easy, but I think, going back to the consistency and the authenticity and that genuine compassion that you can show to somebody, ultimately that's going to get you respect.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: You know, ultimately I went to a leader and they said that to me with compassion, with kindness and with respect.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: I would feel contained by them and I would probably feel respectful of them actually, and then I'd probably trust them a little bit more as well that if anyone else went to them that they would say the same thing.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: So I think it builds, although it's really hard, I think maintaining that consistency and professionalism will build trust in other people and trust, I think, is one of the key ingredients within an organisation and within leadership.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: I'm going to use a word now, but I don't know if it's the right word.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: It's probably not the right word and if you're probably correct me, which is fine.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: But you know, as a new manager, how do you get that authority within the team?
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: How do you get that respect?
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: We could have been promoted, you might have been one of your colleagues to that role or you know, or you could have been new to the organisation, but that is a really tricky time, isn't it actually getting that authority and getting that respect from your team members, and what ways would you go about doing that?
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there are a couple of different elements to that, and I think the first element again and I often come back to this, but it's just kind of giving yourself some compassion in that that is hard and that's okay and that's allowed to be hard, first and foremost.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: And then, second, I think it's really important to remember and this is also really hard that you can't control what other people think and how other people feel, and so for a number of different reasons you're right, you know, you picked someone else to the post, or they don't think you're ready for it, or they don't think that you should be doing it.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: There is often going to be a number of different reasons why somebody else doesn't want to respect you or follow you or do as you tell them to do.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: And so I think it's those first two self compassion first of all, and then, second of all, recognising that you can't control how other people are.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: And then, thirdly I feel like I'm just repeating what I've said before but actually that consistency, if you consistently, if all of your decisions are aligned with the same kind of consistency and you maintain that over time, that's what I think will build rather respect in you, because people will just know that you are continuously, consistently making decisions with the same kind of thing in mind.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: And really the thing that I'm coming in my head, in the back of my head, what I'm thinking about with that consistency, is thinking about boundaries and saying yes and no, and actually the temptation to please others in a leadership role is so strong, isn't it?
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: Because we want to belong to as people, we want to feel liked, we want to feel all of those things, and that's really important to us.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: But that can undermine your leadership, because if you are trying to please people the person in the office that maybe moans most you might give them the least, something else and then actually other people on the team are then like all right, so I get all the work because I don't moan, and all of that kind of thing.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: And actually that's where I think the consistency comes from me treating everybody the same as well and treating everybody with the same level of respect.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: That consistency and holding those boundaries and saying yes or no consistently Although that's really hard, they're the things that are so, so important.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: You know, not saying yes to one person because they might like you, or not giving too much.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: You know, it's the consistency that really matters, and the consistency matters to every single person, whereas maybe saying yes or no to one person really only matters to that one person, even if it feels like they're the one that leads the rest of the team, and who they like and who they respect, etc.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: You know it's very difficult, isn't it?
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: It's always office politics.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so difficult and it's really really hard.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: You know literally talking to people pleasing myself, but it's really hard to sit with making a decision that somebody who you really would like to like you is not going to like.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking, you know, and he's not a brilliant example, because we probably will agree, he doesn't seem like a good leader.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: But Elon Musk, I think he's a good example of somebody that makes decisions that they know will not be popular, as stands by those decisions and you know right or wrong way, whether you agree with him or what he?
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: does.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: That is something I think you know.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: How do people get comfortable with the idea of being disliked?
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: Because often you are as a manager.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: You have to make decisions that are unpopular.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: If you're thinking about bottom line, you think you might show it, depending on where you work.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: How do you get comfortable with being disliked?
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: Do you need to get to it?
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: Is that something that all leaders need to be?
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, do you have to be comfortable with it and OK with it, or do you perhaps, if that is something that comes up for you, is it that you have to accept that's part of who you are and yet still push past it?
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: You know, I think there's a decision almost to be made, isn't there?
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: I would love to tell you that I have let go of that and I literally don't care what anyone thinks of me.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: It's not true, I do.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: I do care and I will always care and I will always find it difficult to make decisions that other people don't like.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: I think back to the director, our director for the show.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: The show was too long and so, literally just as we were starting, she had to make cuts.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: She had to cut people out of songs.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: You know, there was another song which it must be talking to an angel.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: You know, at the beginning it's the Well.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: So the musical we did was set in the 80s for the 80s songs, so it must be talking to an angel and at the beginning of that it was me and someone else that was going to do the da da da bit, and we did it on the first night.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: But actually it's really hard for the timing to be at exactly the same point.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: You know of two singers both going to the da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da da.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: But you know it's difficult.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: To the next night.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: She spoke to me and said, janet, it was really hard for two people to do it, so I'd like it to just be the other person.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, ok, fine, and again back to her consistency and her and respect, et cetera, et cetera that I have for her.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: That was a hard yeah, because you could have been upset about that, couldn't you?
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but she needed to do the right decision for the show and actually the success of the show mattered more than my feelings and also more than whether or not I like her and I'm going to like that decision.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Like it's kind of it's really difficult and I'm not saying that she didn't care how I felt or what I thought about her for making the decision.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: She probably did, but she had to make the decision for the bigger picture.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: That was more important and that, I think, is one of the parts of what we're riding the wave of leadership.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: It's kind of having those difficult conversations.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: I don't think anyone ever gets to a point where they love them or they want to have them and it's not.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: You're never going to be comfortable thinking well, maybe people don't like me for making the decision that I'm making, but ultimately it's coming back to what it is that your role is.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: And if your role is the vision of the organization, the vision of the show, whatever it is, that ultimately has to be more important, and your success as a leader will ride on how well you can ride those waves, and I guess that brings it back to the beginning, about this vision and being consistent in communicating your vision.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: If you're able to communicate that vision, then it's probably easier to have those difficult conversations.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think, coming back again to when you make a difficult decision, and this is the compassionate element that I think she did, and maybe Elon didn't.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe, yeah, but you know she didn't just go, jen, I've cut it.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, she said it in a way that acknowledged that that might feel hard for me.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: She didn't change her mind based on whether or not it might be hard for me and you know, if she was listening to this, she would know that it was okay.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: I could see the vision was more important and I agreed with her that it fits better for one person to do it.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: But actually it's about the compassion communicating with.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the compassion piece.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: She didn't just say it's just cut tough.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: She acknowledged and, I guess, gave some space for not full space because she genuinely didn't have time but she there was some space around her saying it to me.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: That allowed me to be allowed to be disappointed and I think that that's important as well.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: I think when you give you communicate hard decisions or you communicate a no that someone might not like, if you can do that with compassion, then I think that that will ease the blow and again then come back to your own authenticity and think, well, I did it, I love that, because that's you as a manager as well.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: If you're having to promote, you know if you're getting more senior you're going to have to promote some people in your team and not others, and I have to tell that person that wasn't promoted why not?
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: I think it's about being compassion.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: This has been such good advice, Jen.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: I've loved chatting to you.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: So how do you support managers and leaders in the workplace?
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: So I do it in a couple of different ways.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you three ways.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: So, firstly, I have a leadership lounge, which is a free women's leadership networking.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: I actually don't call it networking, I call it connection, because the word networking kind of just brings up an ick in me and actually I think it's more about women that are in a similar role, but in different organizations, coming together and recognizing the kind of common ground that they share.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: So that's what that is.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: That's completely free, that's once a month.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: Secondly, I do a leadership program which is called the Unstoppable Leader, and I have actually just recently so I've been running that for a year now where I've run that for individual women who sign on and join that, and that's other leaders that are doing that program together.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: But I've also recently started to take that into organizations as well.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: So organizations as a women's leadership development program.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: So we do it over six months with one full day of part training, part coaching each month, and then within that we of course address the elements we've talked about today.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: You know, how to get the best out of people, but also how to get the best out of yourself, as well as touching on gender bias and recognizing the impacts that organizations have on women and women's development within an organization and how we can overcome that.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: So that's another element that I do inside organizations and then outside of organizations as well.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Last, but by no means least, my favorite is one-to-one coaching.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: So women who are in a leadership role who are just like, ah, I don't know how to do this, this feels really hard and actually there's lots of challenges coming up and I'm just trying to be the person that I think I'm supposed to be and that's bringing a whole kinds of conflict within me.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: Then I work with those women one-on-one and really get to get clear on who they are as a person, first and foremost, and secondly, who they are as a leader.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: And then we work on all of those other elements and the beliefs that come up and the feelings around.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: You know, not being liked or not being liked by everybody, all of those other difficult elements.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: We can explore them together and learn and grow.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: And I personally believe that that coaching and that time to reflect that headspace that those leaders get when they have those one-on-one sessions with me, I think it massively improves their kind of development path.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: You know, I think it shaves off a couple of years even of their development, because they're really able to spend that time to get clear and learn from and within themselves on their own leadership.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: Thanks, Sandra.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: So how can people connect with you, find out more about the program?
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: So on LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn as Jen Smollett.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: You can find me on there and connect with me there.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: I have my website as well, which is wwwjennsmollettcom.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: So Smollett is double L and double T, and you can send me an email as well at Jen at jennsmollettcom, and we can book a call or have a quick chat over email.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: And also, you know, whenever I say book a call, it's kind of this thing, isn't it?
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: It's booking a call and it feels like, oh gosh, she's going to push me or pressure me into.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: I never would.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: Actually it was.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: You know, those conversations will just be a chat, for me to explore what it is that you're looking for and then for me to say whether or not I could support you and then for you to say whether or not you think it's a good fit.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: You know there's no pressure there whatsoever, it's just a connection.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: I love that Well.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, jen, for joining us today.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: It's been an absolute pleasure to chat with you.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: You're so welcome.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work it Like a Mon podcast.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: If you're unlinked in, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.